Why isn't this even on the "Start with the Greeks" charts? And never discussed here.
After Homer's works it's probably the best of the greek meme (haven't read Sophocles yet though).
Lots of good criticism of the Oresteia. Big in theories of Athenian self-consciousness about the transition to the rationalised state etc.
If anything Euripides is kind of the neglected one. At least I see way way less about him than the others.
>>7584805
I saw the single play adaptation in London last year. Pretty based.
Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripedes are all standard Start with the Greeks. At least they were a few years ago, i don't use charts anymore.
Who???
is Eliot Rodgers too obvious an answer
>>7593987
he probably shitposts on here
borges nabokov and joyce would've been /lit/ shitposters for sure
>starting with Nietzsche
Do plebs actually do this?
Yes, many do.
I did.
I started with Wittgenstein
/lit/, gonna go buy some Kafka.
What are your preferred versions of his works?
He's pretty much a household name, so you can go with the typical Oxford, Penguin, Everyman's Library or Modern Library if you like
Also, these are not bad if you like the cover art; no specific reason to buy them other than the covers, though
>>7593817
There aren't huge differences in translation from one to another? Even over the years? I wanted to check out some used bookstores so I might find older editions of Kafka's work.
Any collections I should keep an eye out for with short stories?
What does /lit/ think of Ben Lerner? I read Leaving the Atocha Station for an English class and really enjoyed it, might have liked 10:04 even more though - he's got a great sense of humor. I've yet to read his poetry - am I missing out? Also any similar authors?
I think he has a very punchable face.
eyebrows
>>7592022
his "poetry" is academic charlatanism at its finest. Really, how he won awards for that total sophomoric garbage is beyond me.
His novels aren't bad or good, they just read like average MFA-mill fare.
He won't be remembered in 20 years.
I've started reading some philosophy. Started with the Greeks since thats what you guys told me to do. I just finished reading Symposium and before that I read Republic. I found both of them enjoyable and found the socratic dialogue really easy to get along with since im not very good at reading.
Anyway, what next? Keep going with Plato? Some other Greek? Something completely different?
Any suggestions very much appreciated.
I haven't read the Republic yet, but I've read alot of his other dialogues like Crito, Hippias minor and major, Lysis, Laches, etc. I can't comment on their philosophical depth or historical importance, but I found them pretty enjoyable, so I'd suggest staying with Plato.
>>7591221
Stay with Plato for a bit. There are at least a few other dialogues that might catch your attention: Euthyphro, Apology of Socrates, and Crito, which take place at the end of Socrates' life. Euthydemus, Hippias Major and Minor, Protagoras, and Gorgias, which show Socrates in his encounters with various sophists. The Meno, Laches, Lysis, Ion, and Charmides for shorter works where the characters and literary elements are evident and enjoyable. Maybe save the Phaedrus and the Phaedo for the end, since while they have a lot of dramatic stuff that will help you along, the contents are evidently harder and more obscure.
Whether you'd like to read Parmenides, Timaeus-Critias, Theaetetus, Sophist, Statesman, Cratylus, Philebus, or the Laws is up to you. The dramatic elements are much more obscure, though no less present.
Anyone read this book? Is it very biased? I'm interested in reading a conservative interpretation of the 20th century, and even that lib Hadrian on goodreads rated it 4 stars
Can someone reommend me some good books on sexology? Preferably up to date ones.
>>7593634
Why not just read books by women
volkmar sigusch
The Rational Male by Rollo Tomassi.
Horror/gothic general thread
Also, how do you write a good horror novel? I find it's easy for me to write perhaps short stories or novellas, but does a horror story really need to be a novel? Most follow kind of the same pattern, a protagonist/group of people who has to overcome or defeat some kind of fear, with the meat and potatoes being the monster or the haunted house.
I ask this because I find it difficult to make it anything more than this when I write horror. I initially I only wrote horror, but I honestly find that it limits the development of a protagonist in a kind of way, being that the only purpose is to defeat or evade the threat and the only traits you can really add is a growing strength within them. I find that it's hard to make horror something "more" than this, and I absolutely don't want to write another shit-tier horror book for an oversaturated market.
This is why I simply add elements of horror into more expansive genres such as fantasy or sci-fi, but can never manage to write any lengthy, quality horror.
I've never been able to reconcile character development with writing horror myself. I like to identify with protagonists but it's basically just as a vehicle so that I can project my realistic response to a giant shoggoth raping me onto them.
I read a lot of horror and I don't think pretty much any of it has character development, other than the protagonist being subjected to things and maybe going nuts. Personality or morality just aren't big dynamics in there. I guess in some sense the traditional psychological structure of a narrative still exists, and there are things with arcs like The Telltale Heart, but it's not the same as complex psychological or philosophical conflict.
>>7593605
Absolutely. I just don't feel fulfilled by it I suppose. It's really kind of shallow in a sense. Entertaining absolutely. I'm going to try and make it kind of different this time. More of a thriller than anything, with description that can make you visualize colors and aura's. much like Dracula or a picture of Dorian gray. Very lush prose.
>>7593612
I don't mind it so much, but that's probably because I'm an autist and I don't mind my speculative fiction having bland protagonists as long as the speculations are good.
I wonder if you could push horror and tragedy together? There is kind of horror in the classic tragic dilemma, especially if you keep the supernatural aspects like Orestes being tormented by the Erinyes. Not just tragedy in the sense of a guy being caught in a paradox or between mutually exclusive choices, but actually being crushed between monolithic suprahuman things. Sorta similar to Lovecraft's vision of cosmic horror.
Everything I just said it probably derivative and trite and definitely pretentious
>More of a thriller than anything, with description that can make you visualize colors and aura's. much like Dracula or a picture of Dorian gray. Very lush prose.
That sounds cool. Luckily horror/speculative is such a fucking eclectic genre full of weird spergs that you can write like Gene Wolfe or Lovecraft and still be cool, more room to take chances and be original.
Why haven't you read his books yet?
>>7593455
Nice meme faggot
>>7593455
sorry i only read white authors.
>>7593455
this book is like joyce, +bandit wars, the devil and homoeroticism
Which War and Peace translation is the best and why
>>7593124
Maude because it was personally approved by Tolstoy.
Sage, the thread is over now. This is the answer.
>>7593130
This to be honest.
But what edition is best?
Everyman's.
translated Russian books = Pevear
Can we end these threads now?
What was that first story or poem you read in class which made you appreciate literature?
>>7591935
probably Bradbury's All Summer In A Day. The only story or poem that actually got emotion out of me in class.
If summer reading etc. counts, the first is Of Mice And Men.
wasn't assigned for class, but angels & demons was the book that got me interested in literature, and i feel no shame about that
I don't remember which poem it was, but it was by e.e. cummings. and just him as a person. As douchey as it sounds it took me getting into writing in order to get into reading.
How advanced/complex was the science and math in Gravity's Rainbow really? Was it more of a cursory use of the "whoa thience and math omg so smart" aesthetic, or did Pynchon demonstrate a deep understanding of the STEM topics he digressed into?
Neither, it was an accessible representation of the various characters' worlds. It has nothing to do with the sciences themselves anymore than the military characters represent an accurate look at life in the military. Signifiers.
Pokler is a rocket man, here are some of the problems her faces.
>>7590781
How about you try reading the fucking book before talking about it. There is no "whoa thience and math" aesthetic in Gravity's Rainbow. Any and all STEM subjects addressed in the book were directly relevant to the narrative and themes, and of course all of the science and math referenced in the book was 100% correct; Pynchon studied engineering at an Ivy league school and actively employed this knowledge everyday while working at Boeing.
Homework for OP:
- Google the word "aesthetic" and learn how to properly use it in a sentence
- purchase a copy of Gravity's Rainbow or check it out from the library
- stop posting on /lit/ about books you haven't read and have no ability to discuss
Many details come from a certain rocket design manual, so they're moderately advanced engineering. Rest of the science is used symbolically. Insofar as "getting it right" makes sense he gets it right obviously. The math proper is limited to a couple jokes.
Pointless question.
What do you all think about the split between literary fiction and genre ("commercial") fiction?
Is the divide really as sharp as a lot of old-guard academics seem to want to make it, or can we actually draw some literary value and understanding from the work of people like King, or Martin, etc.? I'm much more inclined toward the latter opinion and find that the shrugging off of "pop fiction" is an unnecessary, inaccurate, and disdainfully snobbish position to hold.
Thoughts, /lit/?
>>7590241
The problem with King, Martin, et al., isn't that they're 'genre fiction' per se, they're just poor writers without literary value. I agree excluding deserving works on the basis of their genre is a mistake and is to be avoided, but there never will be anything wrong with a divide between 'high/low art,' which seems to be the case here.
I agree with you anon. The very act of dividing books into genres, while maybe useful for cataloguing, is unnecessary. If a book is able to stand on its own, then it's a good book. If it isn't, it's a bad book. At least that's what I feel.
Borges made some great short fantasy, or detective stories, for example. The fact that a book fits an archetype is not enough to discredit it.
It's true that genre fiction writers write shit for the masses, but that shouldn't keep us from good books with fantasy/sci-fi/detective or whatever themes
Where were you when it happened?
How did you find out?
Tell me about DFW. Why does he wear the bandanna?
I scowling at irony when Ma come in.
"DFW is kill" she say.
"no" I am reply.
"yes." she say.
I cry.
My story: I was browsing SomethingAwful's General Bullshit board, which in 2008 was all serious news stories. I'd never heard of David Foster Wallace. I clicked the thread and saw a black-and-white photo of a chubby guy with long hair standing in a cornfield. I read that this guy was a writer and he'd hanged himself. I thought I knew literature pretty well, so I figured from the photo and from the description of his work that he was a genre writer, a sci-fi guy I wouldn't have heard of. I read some of the replies. One comment sticks in my memory: "I wonder how long and pretentious his suicide note was." And then I didn't think about Wallace for a few days until I saw The New Yorker was covering his death. Then I began to think that maybe he was actually a good writer. I started to look into him more, and then the article by David Lipsky was in the Rolling Stone that back then would get inexplicably delivered to my house even though I didn't subscribe to Rolling Stone, and that article inspired me to start buying his books. And that's it.
