Warmahordes general

>>47517095
I'm not disagreeing with you -- your general point is that ranged jack spam doesn't do as much damage as one would hope (at least, that's how I read it), and it just so happens that an obvious target (and a melee jack that's going to get spammed) is impervious to it.

I think Harkevich is going to run better spamming melee jacks, whether Mad Dogs, Marauders, or Juggernauts. Mobility + Reposition is a nice bit of support for a melee jack, because going full ranged just doesn't give you enough damage even under Broadside.

If jackspam is gonna be the new meta then bane thralls still have a purpose. Jacks don't get enough attacks against them and bane thralls still eat armor for breakfast.

>>47522551
That is, unless you drop them into ranged-heavy jack spam, which is what Cygnar will most likely run.

>>47522551
Everyone will actually memorize the rules for trample this time around.

>>47522551
With spd 5 and 12/15 they'll be shot on the approach with any gun.

>>47522312
why would you ever turn down ranged attacks?
it isn't like khador has gun-jacks, they're all big stompy fighty robots with guns. guns that are often aoe and decent pow.
sure hitting things isn't a strength. so you don't boost to hit, hope for a nice drift, then boost the damage if you get something you really want/need to hurt. then charge and smash things.
but if the feat gives a free ranged attack and you've got a number of melee only jacks, you're missing out...

>>47522785
Yeah, you're missing out. I currently just don't think that what you're missing out on is worth giving up just having more melee chassis on the board. Quantity has a quality all its own, and to make jackspam work, you need to aggressively spam it. I think he's scariest sending 7 Juggernauts across the board, because with Mobility they'll get there, and killing *enough* Juggs to matter (as in, can you kill them all before he kills all of your armor cracking?) is not going to be easy.

He's not as strong as Amon (who can drop Envliven on the front two jacks and Fortify one for better ARM and knockdown immune), and plays differently from Karchev (downgraded to Escort, but his feat lets you spam Marauders to be *much* more resilient and be able to do a lot more work on significant work on feat turn), but I strongly suspect he'll be stronger spamming melee jacks -- melee jack spam just looks so much stronger than ranged jack spam right now.

>>47522917
Scratch that Marauder spam, I had it in my brain Juggers were less armor.

>>47522928
marauders are even cheaper. get 6 of them and a colossal! and an ogrun bokur to shield guard harkevich?

Are any of you guys worried that Jack spam is gonna be a problem? Like armor spam in the last edition

>>47523306

Yes


Butcher 1
--Jugger
--Jugger
--Jugger
--Zerker
--Zerker
--Zerker
--Kodiak
--Ruin
...and 3 min units of mechanics.

>>47523306
Yep. If anything, it's going to be worse.

Amon
Crusader x8
Max Choir
2x Sunburst
2x Vassal Mechanik
2x Vassal of Menoth

>>47523306
Not sure until I play. There's a very low quantity of attacks in jack spam and it'll be interesting to see how that works out. Enough charging infantry, even non-weaponmaster, can crack armor.

I also think terrain is the big unknown in MK3. Just look at the 3 battlereports in NQ. Way more terrain and it's in places that can gum things up.

I also question the focus allocation. Even under new Amon there's only so much focus available for allocation. Synergy is nice but the total output suffers some diminishing returns. So I'm not sure that 8+ jacks is actually all that much better then 6 jacks. Power Up makes jacks about as effective as MK2 JM'd melee jacks and that isn't really enough to kill another heavy on it's own.

Allocation is an interesting quandary when we get into power attacks. Locks are the only power attack that clearly favors numbers and that's out. A slam or a throw can KD several enemy jacks and you don't need to match numbers to do that vs the jack spam list. Sure everything can shake off without allocation but it can't shake off and charge.

>>47523395
This list is nasty mostly because of the sunburst shoring up weakness but even that may be possible to be dealt with by flankers. And possibly terrain.

My own prediction is we'll see more balanced lists coming to the fore as they find ways of dealing with spam lists of both types.

>>47523306
In the first 5-6 months >50% of WM pairings will have one jack spam list. Absolutely guaranteed. After that, we'll see.

>>47523306
I'm totally going to try Venethrax or Mortenebra with 90% of points in Deathrippers and win any zone contest scenario on Slams alone.

>>47523582

In that Butcher list I posted:

Every jack has boosted Melee attack rolls + free charges + 1 focus to play with
You can feed 2 more focus to a Jack to top it off
Berserkers can kill up to 6 models a turn for 1 focus

>>47522571
>>47522598
>>47522625

You will most certainly loose some models, but it only takes but a few banes to fuck up your day. Combine them with knights and riders and you have the speed to tie up anything in cc while your warriors advance up the battle.

Before you got through with like 10-12, now its probably going to be like 4-8 that makes it through, depending on the rest of the game.
And as we all know, anything good in shooting, is vulnerable in cc. And pure cc jacks are dead before it can swing.

And with the de-buff abilities of Cryx, I'm not worried one bit that the banes will be equally deadly as before.

>>47523648
hmm let me look this over...
>>47523325
hmmm x3 jugg, x3 zerk, x1 kodiak, x1 ruin. 8 Large bases. Juggs, Kodiak are MAT 7, Zerkers are MAT 5 and have berserker. Ruin is MAT 8 and the only RNG 2 weapon platform.

So accuracy is definitely there but the area of the board you can threaten at once...idk. it's 7 bases with 1" range. How many things are they getting into melee?

Also they all need to share 12" control area? I feel like you'll wind up having to send them in waves.

Full Throttle is nice but it uses up 3/6 focus. If you upkeep Fury or Vengeful that leaves 1/6 left. Which I feel like you'd want to keep even if Butcher is high arm and boxes.

Certainly true that the free charge mixes well with the 1 focus and when you throw in Butchers feat things get good and dead. However, his feat's great with everything so having lots of models helps it too.

It's definitly a new thing to deal with but part of me won't find it scary until I have a proper playtest against it. Off the cuff I feel like dropping 3 jacks from the list and grabbing some infantry makes a scarier list with plenty of jacks to work with full throttle.

>>47523306
Gunbunnies with boosted shots
Gunbunnies everywhere

>>47523684
15/30 models reached combat, 10 dying as clogging. 10 mcthralls, knights and satyxis, 15 would hit stuff. All could live more than thralls and are significantly faster.
New Thralls are garbage for the same reason Cygnar 12/15 Menoth slow 12/15 rarely saw the light of day.

>>47523582
It's not unstoppable, but currently I can't think of a better general-purpose list for a 2-list pairing. A *lot* of lists are just going to have no answer to it.

Amon has Mobility so the terrain is going to have less impact on his jackspam.

>>47523684
I think it's an answer to Khador jackspam, but I don't see how you crack Amon jackspam so easily.

In any case, we'll find out in a couple of weeks as we start getting games in. I'm hyped as fuck for Amon.

>>47523806


That's a fair analysis.

What do you think about dropping a Jugger + Zerker and getting a full MOW package.

ARM 23 MOW in a zone that you can cycle Fury on seems like it might be a thing.

What do you suppose Gunnbjorn lists will look like now?

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I figure I might as well give this a try in the actual general:
With the new edition looming, I want to give this game another try as last time, about two years ago, didn't really work out due to some bad experiences in my first couple of games.
I own the Khador stuff from the 2 player box, a Decimator and a War Dog. However, I cannot find the warcaster; I assume I lost her when moving.
So, which warcaster should I get to start with? Is this even a reasonable starting point now? I like Men-o-War and 'jacks, both of which I was told would be better this edition.

>>47523963
Janissa, 3x Bomber, assassinate on feat turn. He's the new Lylyth2.

against anything except menoth.
because fire.

madhammer.
and 1 earthshaker.
a variety of bunnies. mostly gunners but some blasters to set up tasty sprays.
give a bunny to:
thor, so he can tune up the earthshaker.
and maybe even herne and jonne for artillerist.

but then you're missing out on more bunny napalm fun.

>>47524214
Get the new battlebox. Kozlov is an alright caster and having 2 juggs is never a bad thing

>>47524214
did they touch you in naughty places?
>can i?

>>47522312
I think hark would do well running a decimator herd though. His pseudo-assault happens after you declare a charge, so the shot should be part of your combat action. So it triggers beat back.

>>47523907
But a full MoW package costs 25 points. Unless you're leaving the kovnik at home so they can crawl up the board?

>>47524214
Kovnik is a must for manowars.
Melee jacks will like caster that can speed them up.
Shooty jacks don't care.

Buy the new starter or something.

>>47523306
I don't see how tournament-viable jack spam in a game about jacks is a problem.
Hordes have their beast lists already, let warmachine have theirs.

>>47524556
>I don't see how tournament-viable jack spam in a game about jacks is a problem.
A list being viable is one thing. It dominating the meta is another.Let's see where jack spam ends up.

>>47523907
I'd actually look to stuff like widowmakers. I feel like you need to snipe out your counters and spot removal things that try to jam your charge lanes. Not entirely sure what works best for this role but that seems clearly to be part of the playtesting experience.

Grabbing MoW is just doubling up on more of what you have. So it doesn't feel like it changes much other then maybe be able to be more independent.

>>47523306
Having played jack spam in Mk2, I don't think it's going to be nearly as big of a problem as one thinks.

Convergence is arguably best at jack spam, and not simply because of Induction. It has several jacks capable of outputting a huge amount of attacks to offset it's small numbers, but scernario and attrition were still a major issue to be contended with.

A lof of jack spam lists I see people theorizing seem like they'd be great against other jack spam lists, but simply lack the quantity of attacks to deal with decent infantry swarms.

And remember that weaponmaster spam is still a thing, if not quite so much. FA:U Doom Reavers means that sustained armor cracking is more than possible for Khador, and Cryx's debuffs can see them deal with the armor without major issue.

>>47524597
Butcher1 has iron flesh, though. Manowar become arm 23 which is pretty goddamn nuts. I would always take manowar or pikemen if my caster has iron flesh.

>>47524573
I can't see it dominating.

All a Khador player has to do is put Mad Dogs Mk3 edition on the table and most of the jack spam lists people are talking about are just done.

Especially now that any caster can do it and Doom Reavers can get buffed.

>>47524681

Wait, why Mad Dogs?

>>47524691
Mad dogs of war theme list stand in

>>47524691

Oh wait, the theme list and not the Khador jack.

>>47524681
Doom reavers are still spell ward. And doom reavers both got more expensive and you have way less points to spend on them.

75 army points in mk3 means 37.5 in mk2. So in mk3 you can get at most 30 doom reavers on the table. You could get something like 48 in mk2.

It's just not near as viable anymore.

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>>47524597
Ooh there's an artillerist kaptin. I'd say x2 Mortars + that guy sounds like a good base to start with. That's 15 PC. That should help deal with jam. May trick the opponent into leaving spaces to trample into.

If Eiyriss winds up being an issue then something that can kill her or chase her down would be nice. Mortar deviations are scary for her. Manhunters or Kossites just to run/engage may work for that?

>>47524737
I expect I'll use him with behemoth more than I will with a mortar

>>47524735
Thought they got sacred.

Anyways, it's not viable in the same way it was in Mk2, no.

But it's still absolutely viable against jack spam, especially the jack spam lists people are talking about. Most of these lists don't have the attacks needed to kill enough Reavers to not lose their army to it.

>>47524652
It's not about combos. The list concept is investing heavy into jack spam. The idea in dropping a couple of jacks is to get options in the list that help support the jack spam. In this case by helping deal with things that counter jackspam.

ManOWar in general may work well with Butcher1 but in this specific list the list stays very one dimensional with them. You're suggestion of ironflesh also means that having to upkeep that instead of putting that focus elsewhere when I pointed out that jackspam means stretched resources already.

I think you need stuff that can start attritioning an opponent early and can potentially snipe out key solos/support pieces the opponent may be using to deal with your jacks. Stuff like Gorman, Ragman, and Eyriss. Remember this is also ALL MELEE jack spam.

So basically it doesn't matter whether or not man o war are nuts. What matters is if it keeps the list one-dimensional.

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This is what I plan to play at the first post-MK III Journeyman League:

Week 1 0
Kozlov -28
- Juggernaut 12
- Decimator 16

Week 2 10
Kozlov -28
- Juggernaut 12
- Decimator 16
Man-o-war Shocktrooper 10

Week 3 25
Kozlov -28
- Juggernaut 12
- Decimator 16
Man-o-war Shocktrooper 16
Great Bears 9

Week 4 33
Kozlov -28
- Juggernaut 12
- Decimator 16
Man-o-war Shocktrooper 16
Great Bears 9
Man-o-war Kovnik 5
War Dog 3

Week 5 45
Kozlov -28
- Juggernaut 12
- Decimator 16
- War Dog 3
Man-o-war Shocktrooper 10
Great Bears 9
Man-o-war Kovnik 5
- Grolar 18


Week 6 75
Kozlov -28
- Juggernaut 12
- Decimator 16
- Behemoth 24
- War Dog 3
Great Bears 9
Man-o-war Shocktrooper 16
Man-o-war Kovnik 5
- Grolar 18

>>47524773
Well, what about widowmakers, marksman, mortar, and a war dog or min unit of mechaniks for those 20 points? Or sylys instead of the marksman.

>>47524822
That's more what I was going for yeah.

Have Kayazy been dropped from Khador? They aren't in the Khador deck.

>>47524898
They're in Mercs, but can still be taken as FF by Khador.

>>47524898
They are in the mercenary deck, and become Friendly Faction when in a Khadorian army.

>>47523879
Bane thralls may be the mkii boogy man, but they arent as common as people think. I personally only use them in 2 lists, and one of them -lich2, only takes the minimum unit with no ua.

With the proliferation of Dark Shroud, I expect them to see even less play time.

Bane knights I think remain as potent as ever. They have reach, vengence and hit as hard on the charge. They lost some power with free strikes and vengance moves, but that is a negligable change.

I think pure Jack spam will be stupid. But combined arms Jack spam is a solid idea.

>>47524389
Decimators I think would run the best as they are able to pop off 2 shots naturally and that extra from broadside sees them suddenly being able to get a lot of decent pow shots down field.

>>47524735

You are the first person to notice this. The whole being able to spam doom reavers is a lie until they release a tier list for it.

I was able to get 7 units and a war dog on the rabble with a conquest in mk2, but now I can only get 5 units and a conquest in mk3.

>>47525111
Again, in the context I'm talking about, you only need 5 units.

You're not trying to recreate Mk2's Mad Dogs of scenario pressure combined with sheer number of WM attacks to kill most armies, you're just creating a list capable of putting a lot of high quality attacks into a very small number of hard to kill targets, which 5 units of Doom Reavers absolutely do.

With a couple of cheap jacks yourself behind all of this to close the game, I think you'll rip most jack spam lists to pieces.

>>47524737


>clear

But that won't stop a mortar AOE from annihilating your winter guard. Guess it helps a cannon shooting into melee?

Anyway now Slamming Devastators is an easy tactic.

A slam, even with boosted damage because of contact, can't really harm the Closed Devastator.

Devastators can't fall down. And so benefit from the extra speed boost. They can charge and splode the next turn.

>>47525172
I have no idea why Khador wants that. It's for sprays. I guess for WG themselves?

>>47523306


Only with a few casters per faction, everyone else will want decent combined arms. You'll see at least two heavies in every list though

>>47525172
Iron Flesh stops that from happening.

Clear I think is for having your Field Guns shoot into melee to knock enemy models down.

>>47525191


It can only target a weapon crew though and it's only their guns

>>47524737
also just realized I did the math wrong. 13 PC. Mortars are 5 and the solo is 3.

Are Privateers busted? They can't do anything against warjacks. Mercenary armies in general are gonna consist of nothing but warjacks from now on.

>>47525111
Yeah, I've run against serious doomie spam in mk2. Unless there's a theme list that supports it, it's not going to be nearly as good in mk3.

And I think Amon is going to eat non-Irusk2 doomie spam alive, anyway, unless they can get to Mk2 numbers. Without Tactician, they're not going to be able to do enough damage per turn to make up for the horde that gets trampled to death in return.

>>47525232
They can bring the Commadore Cannon, or the Galleon.

But there's no such thing as pirates anymore, it's mercs in general. So they can just bring shit like forgeguard to deal with it.

>>47525232

>worried about Jack heavy lists
>with the three casters that all have a rat 8 pow 16 range 20 slam
>also have galleon (which is privateer now)

Bart runs Jack heavy fine/better. Fiona makes the commodore ignore intervening models, the galleon is a privateer model now so is effected by Shaes shenanigans

Overall pirates are in a better place than they were in Mk2 but probably still only a fun list

>>47525259
Theme lists exist still and Pirate players who are only interested in pirates won't be buying other units.

>>47524929
Bane Knights and Satyxis units are as things stand the only well balanced units that will see play. Thralls, McThralls, Biles and everything else is for the most part quite awful.

>>47525280
So all my expensive units and solos are useless in mk3? Nice to know, ebaying them right now. PP can keep their shitty dead game.

>>47525344
>Thralls
>Worse

Are you shitting me? They picked up half an inch of melee range, traded stealth for ignoring all terrain, and went unchanged otherwise.

They're still quite good.

>>47525348
How are your units and solos worthless?

Also, this feels like bait.

>>47525371
But no Tough via UA. Considering that Tough itself was nerfed, they might as well have kept it. Or go down in price a little bit.

>>47525371
Welcome to Cryx players.

Bane Warriors, effective PS 13 weapon masters with ghostly and a minifeat that makes more of them are useless because they don't have stealth.

>>47525371
They lost 1.5" of range.
Ignoring terrain was easy to give through Skarlock or Saxon.
They lost all defensive tech, have 12/15 and getting them in combat will be very hard. They can also no longer hold zones.

>>47524214

>Had a bad experience

What happened? You loose a game?

>>47525445
12/15 with mat 6 and a role in killing vehicles and not warrior models, 9" threat range and hard to get across the board.

>>47525476
What? I can't hear you over the baseless whining.

>>47525481
I can't hear you from no play on any slow melee unit with no defensive tech
See Cygnar units in the entire mkii

Given the beating that Bastions took, think the High Reclaimer should look elsewhere for his resurrection targets? Cinerators? More cavalry?

>>47525381
Because infantry is useless in mk3.

>>47525497
Dude, thats EVERY faction, and Khador did OK. Speed 5 is NORMAL. Whats with this pathetic baby whining.

Def 12 is avarage, Arm 15 protects against most blasts. The damage is still high as pie.

If your so rabidly paranoid about the lack of stealth, take them with casters who could grant it.

>>47525371

See, for a Cryx player, you cannot loose any models while reaching the enemy. Anything beyond this is horrid, and therefore classified as trash units.
If it doesn't have stealth or absurd def, great speed bonuses, mk2 Though with get up, and at the same time hits like a truck once it hits cc, its not worth taking.

So while the other teams looks at the new Bane Warriors and goes like "Well.. thats not so bad, they are still a great unit" Cryx players goes "WHAAAAAH!! They ruined my pain train! These models wont leave the shelves now! Fuck you Privateer for making these über warriors more in like with the rest of the game! Now Ill have to actually git gud when playing".

>>47525546
Which expensive no reach melee saw play? It being standard hardly makes it something people will play.
Also, why the fuck would you use occulation on them and not something useful like Bane Knights? They now cost the same and Knights outperform in most cases. Heck, it's 23 points with the UA versus Knights that still dish out damage and are significantly faster. Why in the world would anyone take Thralls? Especially with far more common Dark Shroud?

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>>47525546
>Speed 5 is NORMAL
Speed 5 is still above what we have in Khador, and you don't hear us whinning.
Some factions lost their Easy mode, that's a good thing for the game.

>>47525481
That's not baseless whining, its just a fact really. Getting pathfinder wasn't an issue in Cryx when in MKII many of our casters had Ghost Walk or took Saxon. Stealth and tough is what delivered them. Mostly tough because sprays and many things ignore stealth. Plus they lost the movement speed from Curse making them terminally slow.

I don't think anyone is really crying their eyes out about our most expensive unit being toned down. Some might think it was taken a bit far since they remain our most expensive unit, but were not 'priced accordingly' and will probably scarcely see the table

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So is it just me or shocktroopers the only good MoW now? Demo Corps have almost nothing to them and bambardiers are still... Mediocre....

>>47525657
>Demo Corps
I don't know what PP was thinking. They are absolute shite compared to shock troopers.

>>47525476

Through your whine I can actually hear a very important point your making here. According to PP, there is no Skonrnergy, but this is exactly what they gave the new Bane Warriors.
A unit that supposedly hits like a truck (and we all know this to be true!), they are aimed to take down Jacks, heavy fucking Jacks! At the most engage some HI, but thats wasting potential damage! So why did they give this "hit you like a truck" unit, thats obviously no masters of close combat (I agree, mat 6 is nothing to brag about on your elite infantry), the ability to regenerate more models when killing infantry?
This to me is typical Skornergy, something they told us would go away (or even existed in the first time, but thats just "cranky baby talk" from privateer for realizing they have a community that makes fun of them when they write horrid rules).

With the nerfed though Id much rather see them actually sticking with Though. Hell, they could have kept them as they where, even adding a "immunity to knockdown" on them. Trolls have it on each and every elite infantry they got, so why not Cryx?

But I get it, the Cryx needed a well deserved smack on the bottom for being so good, and they got it. But that doesn't excuse badly written rules.

>>47525710

That's not Skornergy. Banes happen to be good at hacking apart *anything*, and can replenish their numbers lost on the way in by ganking some infantry.

>>47525618
>I don't think anyone is really crying their eyes out about our most expensive unit being toned down.

How about this, Khador and cryx can exchange their elite costing infantry.

You get Assault Kommandoes, and we get your Bane Thralls. Good?


>>47525657
Yup. Can't wait for the 20$ UA....I mean design space.

>>47525657
Yeeeaaaahhh.

Demo Corps don't feel distinct enough from Shocktroopers anymore, and they come out worse because of it. The difference in point cost is negligible to the point of meaninglessness, so what you end up with is trading +1 ARM, Shieldwall, CMA, the shield cannon, and access to the UA for +2 POW and a shitty critical effect.

Don't get me wrong. It's really nice that we'll be seeing MoWs on the table now. I just can't figure out why I'd ever use Demo Corps.

>>47525546
Fuck off. Which melee units did Khador use? Doom Reavers, Iron fangs, Great Bears and Kayazy. All of them have SPD 6 and all but Kayazy have reach to boot, Kayazy have DEF 14 and Stealth.

mmm salt

>>47525618
Now Ghost Walk is cheaper, can be cast by Withershadow, and more casters have it.
Thralls either needed Stealth or Tough.
Now they are weaker, cost more than they used to and are completely outperformed by Knights, who are actually one of the three (never used calvary so from that Soul Hunters still appear to be decent with Bane Cav being heavy nerfed) well balanced units. They are weaker, but still do the job you wanted them to do, which is being mobile, independent and reasonably strong versus multiple unit types while not being amazing against any.
>>47525754
Mat 6 makes them quite bad at hacking up anything. Unless you pay 8 more points to get it up more which is half your points which if the enemy knows what to shoot will not reach combat will more than 3 models which may or may not do anything useful.
>>47525773
Didn't you know they used to run MoW because speed 4 is actually really really decent?

>>47525773
Correction, def 14-19 depending on the situation. But who needs defensive tech on units! Just those whiny babies!

>>47525762
>>47525755
>>47525700
I know. I kept hearing that MoW would be "the new big thing" for Khador. Maybe there is some warcaster synergy we haven't seen yet but thats just me being wishful.

>>47525773

Il Gladly Switch Bane Thralls with Doomers. At the cost of 3 points less, we get only 6 of them in a unit. And on top of that we can't even buff em. Feh.

Great Bears are a character Unit, and Kyazy can deal with infantry but not with Jacks (Also Kyazy are vulnerable to blasts very muchso). I will say I see Kyazy as the new secret stars though.

>>47525657
Demo Corps are kind of crap. I think Bombardiers are definitely improved by the significant point discount and may have their place.

I say look on the bright side. We finally have a good MoW unit now.

>>47525870
Kovnik with free Reform in Irusk seem pretty decent with Shocktroopers for zone holding.

>>47525754
mat 6 is not exactly great at hacking apart infantry, which is my complaint about the new Bloodgorgers as well since I believe the average is is def 13 or 14. Plus Cryx doesn't need help clearing infantry in mkiii so the role is almost superfluous.

However, most of our casters now have some form of mat fixer which is nice I suppose.

>>47525870

They really meant Shocktroopers are the next big thing.

>>47525892
Shocktroopers are amazing! It's just everything else that blows!
>>47525878
I didn't know they were point reduced. I'll actually look deeper into them. Thanks!

>>47525821
Actually less casters have access to ghost walk now as Denny2 and Scaverous lost it.

>>47525876
Reach speed 6 weapon master AD mat 7 Berserk (or did they lose any of it?) is still usable. Maybe it's priced too heavily, but it can kill all types of units is not bad.
But one unit being bad doesn't make another bad unit good if that was the point. Thralls compete with Knights for the same role really and there is no reason, ever to take Thralls. There is more Dark Shroud in play now so that's another indirect nerf to them, alongside everything else.
Oh, Iron Flesh will now be cool with Kyazy since it ignores blast.

>>47525909

Agreed.

Shocktroopers look great, and anyone who can hand out Iron Flesh or Reposition (I'm looking at you, Irusk1) will be able to get genuine mileage out of them.

But the other MoWs have hardly changed in my estimation. Bombardiers are irrefutably better, sure, but that just elevates them from the "I will never use this" category to the "I will hardly ever use this" category.

>>47525920
>I didn't know they were point reduced

Bombardiers used to be 11 points for 5 while Demo Corps and Shocktroopers were 9. In Mk3, they're 16 points, same as Shocktroopers, which would be the equivalent of 8 points in Mk2. So Bombardiers are essentially 4 Mk2 points cheaper than they were.

>>47525927
Did they? Man they really put Denny2 into the fucking ground.
>>47525920
That's one more than what you used to have, which is good!
>>47525896
It's a simple design problem, why would you try to fix a bad unit and not just take a good one?

>>47525896
Man if only you had some way of buffing Bane Accuracy...Man.....If only.

Nay, that just be in the realm of fairytales.

>Freezing Grip is now COST 3
>Frostfang gained the Shatter ability

fuggggg

the new Sorscha1 is great

>>47526049
Man, if it was even worth it in the first place to pay 31 points for it...
You can take
20 Bane Knights
Or Tartarsauce and 12 Bane Warriors
The choice is too easy. Basically you went from spam of one unit and a only rarely used second unit to the simple choice of only spamming the one unit.
Thralls already were a situational pick, but a good one.

>>47526083
God the Cryx whinyness never ends.

You talk about quantity VS quality like your the only faction that has ever had to make these choices.

Its like a Trillionaire being reduced to a day job:

>"Wait I have to CHEW my food? Like with my hands? Well obviously Im going to go for babyfood, that saves me on valuable chewing energy now that I can't afford somebody to chew my food for me"

>>47526053
I am actually surprised they buffed her assassination potential. It was already pretty good before

>>47526165
I don't care about your shitty faction, I care about the units which I own and play.
Bane Warriors are now as it stands a shitty unit which is outperformed by other units.
Another fun fact, Bane Knights outshine Warriors in quality too. Mobility is the name of the game and it is now cheaper, but doesn't hit as hard.
Versus a slow unit which can't get across the board if it faces a unit of Gun Mages.

>>47526053
Freezing Grip is garbage. I have no idea why people splurge over it.

Being basically a weapon master on her feat assassination though? That's pretty awesome.

>>47526273
How? Did the "unit cannot do anything for a turn" rule change?

>>47526311
It's RNG 8 and costs half her stack. Setting aside the number of anti-spell things in the game, you probably want to boost at FOCUS 6 anyway. Overall it's just not that great all things considered. Especially given that she has her feat available at any time, so if you're close enough to Freezing Grip, you're better off tactically feating.

>>47526053
>>47526189
>>47526273
Huh, I always wanted to play sorscha's 18 in mk2, maybe I should get myself an old battlebox and give it a go in mk3.

>>47526395
Well it went from 4 to 3 and you used the elf dude for extra die anyway.

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>>47526395
It's bad alone, it's a game changer with Sylys.

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>>47526083
>>47526238
tl;dr:
>oh no I can't force my opponent to tailor their list to specifically handle my Stealth Ghostly Tough Rising Weapon Master units anymore
>GG fucking inefficient garbage, now I have to throw out all 30 of them and spam a different unit

Is it just me or was separating IFP from Black Dragons making it a bit more complicated? Why not just make the Black Dragon UA more expensive?

So I've been mulling over the new Khador caster recently, mostly just because the models looks really cool and I love the word "viscount".

...but why would I ever take him over Irusk1? Aside from having a touch more personal presence (and frankly not enough to make a difference most of the time), he just seems to have similar but dramatically inferior abilities. I feel like Chosen Ground needed to confer one more ability, like Sturdy or something.

>>47526653
>30 of ... Stealth Ghostly Tough Rising Weapon Master unit
that's bullshit and you know it, nobody could play that

>>47526673
He's the bastard child of Irusk and Orsus, and does neither of what they do as well as his daddies.

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>>47525348
>>privateer units and solos

Man they basically didn't change from MK2. Your being a hyperbolic shit and I don't like seeing that from another merc player. You'll make us look like the cryx shitters.

>>47525512
Just because everyone is jumping on the bandwagon doesn't mean they are right. We don't have any games in MK3 to make that kind of judgement.

>>47525232
>Are Privateers busted?
Full pirate boat is waiting on it's theme force to really determine this. As things stand they didn't really lose anything from MK2 and made some minor gains. More importantly all 3 merc casters can now run a battlegroup competently which is good because jacks where always how you killed hard targets in Pirates. Hell Nomads are P+S 18 now is huge for pirates because none of the pirate casters had a damage fixer (affliction doesn't count for this type of damage).

> They can't do anything against warjacks.
Bloody Bradigan is way better now and he hits jacks pretty hard. Not sure how impactful that is but it's definitely something Pirates didn't have before. (Because he sucked).

In addition to that is better merc heavies. As well as the fact jack spam is low output and that means getting clogged by tough more easily.

I mean look at this guys Butcher list.
>>47523325
I can see it getting bogged down chewing on pirate infantry vs Shae then godspeed slipping past the jacks to charge into Butcher. Or just go for scenario.

>>47526653
No one spammed bane thralls though.

>>47526738
You can't take Nomads in a Privateer army and if you took them in mk2, you aren't a real Privateer anyway.

>>47526793
Oh. Your that kind of person. Ok then.

Is it going to be possible to play cygnar without the uberjack in mkIII ? I left warmachine because all lists that worked seemed to require one or two of it, and it ain't sold here.

>>47526714
Especially since they didn't have ghostly and had an UA limit.
>>47526875
It's still their best, but they got massive buffes to most things.

>>47526875
cygnars other jacks are looking far more playable than before. whether or not running a colossal in addition to others is the best way remains to be seen

>>47526932
Wait. In addition? cygnar is going to run more then one jack per army?
Did they also stop being the merc infantry>cygnar infantry faction? Because if yes, then it is awesome. I never wanted to play an army made out of trolls and nyss with merc solos.

>>47525259
Except coup de main only works on privateer models

>>47526972

Yes. Most of our buffs went friendly faction, plus Trenchers and Stormblades got better.

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>>47526972
The game rules have been changed to both make running multiple jacks a better choice (for example, you generate free focus equal to your number of jacks) and make mercenaries a worst choice than your faction model (for example, a lot of faction spells now don't affects mercenaries anymore)

>>47527039
>>47527015
Awesome. Maybe I start playing again.

>>47527154
Just about sums it up.
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

>reading Zerkova1 rules again
>Rod of Whispers arc node is enemy models only

My dreams were destroyed before they were ever realised.

>>47527810

Congrats for misunderstanding an ability that's been around since the beginning of MK2?

>>47526735
I mean, he's a BB caster, he's meant to be simplistic and indicative of what the faction does.

>>47527039
> you generate free focus equal to your number of jacks

I though jacks were given a free focus during Maintenence. The way you said it, it sounds like the warcaster gets the focus.

>>47527822
You mean an ability that Khador has never had so I've never needed a reason to look at it? Thanks.

>>47527853
As Anon was obviously not an active player, I went for the simplification, explaining the spirit of the rule. What you wrote is technicaly correct.

>>47527185
You know, that's bullshit but if presented by imposing leader with cute butt, I'd totally buy it.

Speaking of heavy jackspam, how'd the Ret version of that look?

>>47524737
Any other spoilers like this? I know we've seen the Llaelese stuff and the Cygnar sniper.

>>47528171
What do you wanna see?

Retribution Jackspam

Vyros 2 - +27 WJP

-Imperatus
- Sphinx
- Sphinx
- Sphinx
- Sphinx
- Sphinx
- Gorgon
- 3 x Arcanist

Do you have the spoiler cards for the Retribution Healer or their new unit not found in the spoiled deck?

>>47528222
Ret stuff, pretty much. The 'Thyron's buddies' thing they mentioned and the Lys healer. That's all I'm aware they're getting.

Let's say I was interested in High Reclaimer, Testament, Durst, Severius2, and Amon. Any general suggestions for jacks, units, and solos? Choir aside, naturally.

>>47528390
Don't have any new ret stuff unfortunately. Just Khador, Legion and some minions

>>47528479
No prob dude.

>>47528479
Minions?

>>47527810
Huh.....Oh fuck me.

Goddamit, that one singular word turns her from worthwhile to stupidly dangerous to use again.

Fucking PP. Do they have like 3 different guys at the balance helm? One knows how unit synergy works and the two others flip a coin and go off feelings?

>>47528479

I'd be down for some new Legion stuff.

Were there any remaining sources for the leak pdfs? Most stuff seems to have been taken down.

How likely is it that the community will decide to halve all caster jack/best points and raise the points size for average games to 100? PP buffed jacks so much that there's no reason for further incentives for their use and I'm sure most people would prefer to keep using their infantry armies from mk2.

>>47529166
>How likely is it that the community will decide to halve all caster jack/best points and raise the points size for average games to 100?

Not very.

>>47529166
Extremely low, I would say zero but I'm sure some podunk scrub meta somewhere will do it anyway just to spite me if I do.

>>47529166

Next to no chance.

If the community pushes certain tournament types or points values that's one thing, but there's no way people will mod actual stats or ban units.

If that was a thing people did you would have seen that in MK2.

>>47529166
turns out some people actually play the game for the 'jacks

>>47529166
Not at all. One of the big things about warmachine is the relative uniformity of it's rule sets and things across the nation, the community seems to take a lot of pleasure in being able to play by the same rules just about anywhere.

And I don't think people are so against the concept of more jacks/beasts. People played the armies that won, of course, but that doesn't mean a majority weren't interested in armies playing different ways.

Plus, the slightly smaller point sizes and the general downturn of super alpha abilities seems better for the game, overall.

>>47524822

I like it!

I could put clear on the mortar, aim and shoot my own jack if they try to jam too badly.

Off to playtest!

I want to start Cryx, what do I need to get?

I already got:
pDenny, pSkarre, pGaspy
slayer, seether, worm, 5 various turkeys
rengrave plus 10 revenants
6 bane warriors

>>47529595
A couple of Seethers, a Harrower or two, a Shrike and all character jacks except Malice.

>>47529595

Scaverous and Venethrax

>>47525762

Demo Corps and Bombadiers would likely be better off as WA for Shocktroopers than solo units.

>>47529658
That'd be cool.

With mk3 pp has this weird idea that making something shitty but lowering costs means people will still use it, and it's really not true

>>47529595
2 inflictor kits, bane knights, satyxis blood witches +blood hag, iron lich overseer, warwitch siren x2 would be a good baseline

>>47529683
I feel like there's still some changes in how the base rules interact with things, which is what I'm curious about.

If things like how crit effects work, tramples, charges, even movement and the like have changed, there could be a lot more to these unit entries than we know.

>>47525657
Bombardiers were good in mk2 already after they got combine except for their huge cost. They fixed the cost now.

Democorps are good with iron flesh or without it in second line. They are still the hardest hitting infantry in faction.

>>47529784

totally agree, if they hadn't told us about power up people would be complaining about warjack points way more than they already do for example

>>47529828
No they are not. They have the highest raw POW in faction, but are exceeded by our other options quite verily.

Even shocktroopers with Assault do better then they do.

>>47529852
Shocktroopers with assault cost a solo more and they still put 1 less damage on a heavy on average per model. Also after they charge to use assault they're back to arm 17 so they can be killed just as easy as democorps.

>but are exceeded by our other options quite verily
Options like what?
Maybe Uhlans on the charge and that's it.

>>47529784
It's highly unlikely that any significant changes are still hiding in the core rules, at least as they relate to how models function on a basic level. Things like that tend to poke through in the cards, and we can see all the cards. Plus PP would probably have talked about any big changes already, or at least hinted at their existence even if they didn't say exactly what they were.

>>47529994
I mean price for price.

Like Technically The Conquest does the most damage out of anything but its also the most expensive.

Demo core has 5 attacks. As a target for a Buff they do OK. But Iron Fang Pikememen have a similar cost, but overall do more damage because of the amount of attacks and are better targets for Buffs.

>>47530086
I dunno though, they've still taken that "You don't know everything yet" stance on even the leaks.

And there's some stuff that just doesn't make sense.

Like, take the Skorne BE. It's not that it was just nerfed, it changed dramatically. Like, it picked up the Cav rule, changed from gaining STR to gaining SPD, and picked up Trample. Xerxis2 also picked up trample.

What if Tramples count as a charge attack(thus giving it boosted rolls) and Huge bases suddenly have some method of making their own landing zone when the Trample?

Like, otherwise the changes seem insane, but a super fast SA having boosted trample rolls and just pushing through an entire unit seems actually pretty solid, and makes sense both with the changes and with the fluff of the model.

I've got zero basis for the idea, but giving the damn thing trample and doing nothing to fix trample rules for huge base models just seems insane otherwise.

So I've been thinking of my own Khador jack spam lists, and what they'd look like using my current models.

Butcher1 +28
Behemoth 24
Ruin 17
Juggernaut 12
Berserker 8
Berserker 8

Manowar Shock Troops 16
UA 4 (Using my metal shock trooper to proxy for a UA with my plastic unit)

Manowar Kovnik 5

Battle Mechaniks 5

Widowmaker Marksman 4

Karchev +30
Behemoth 24
Juggernaut 12
Kodiak13
Marauder 10
Grolar 18
Rager (Probably just magnetize a shock trooper shield onto a berseker as a proxy for now) 11

Widowmakers 8

Mechaniks 5

Koldun Lord 4

First list has more raw power. Second one is way more mobile. Road to War and two of the jacks have pathfinder. First list is better overall because butcher is a better jack caster than karchev, but second list will be fun.

>>47530224
I love the new and improved TyComm standard bearer in Skorne, too.

>>47530224

>Huge bases suddenly have some method of making their own landing zone

I've been wondering about this as well for the Archangel. PP is really trying to get people pumped about it, which I understand because it's a beautiful model, but hyping up its speed didn't quite make much sense for a reveal since its issues were never about speed so much as finding a place for it to land. There's a weird bit of a disconnect when your super points intensive showpiece model can't land because there is a single dude that stops it from landing.

If huge bases had some sort of clearing or beatback mechanic that would make more sense.

>>47530319
The mammoth specifically has bulldoze as a rule, so I'm not sure what colossals could have as a rule for clearing that would still make bulldoze relevant.

Does anyone have the SR2016 beta rules and want to help a beggar out?

>>47530353
Bulldoze applies to normal movement stuff without any other benefits.

AA has flight, so it can move over models normally. Problem being that finding a place for it to land is hilariously difficult once lines are drawn.

>>47530224
Sure, Trample might work differently (I doubt it), but that isn't an earthshaking change. It doesn't affect how most models function at all.

But again, if they actually made Trample super awesome and it fixes a bunch of stuff, why did they not mention that at any point? What are the odds that not a single card-rule in the entire game hints at these changed rules?

Everything suggests that outside of terrain (which still seems mostly the same, except for the new terrain types they've hinted at) and scenarios the basic rules are virtually unchanged.

>>47530353
They specifically don't want bulldoze to work with tramples. They errataed it before, and now its outright written on the card.

PP just are not that great game designers.

Anyone have rough ideas for 3e Amon lists? I'd be more interested in more balanced lists, i.e. stuff other than "eight Crusaders".

>>47530392
When you come right down to it, PP has been incredibly tight lipped about what they've talked about. One of the reasons the leaks were such a big deal is people found out all sorts of shit they didn't talk about in the Insiders.

I mean hell, the Convergence Insider said most of the army was basically the same, when there was a fair bit of small, but significant changes buried in the cards

My favorite reveal from the card leaks is how Baldur1 is almost 100% unchanged, even though their retailer solicitation for his resculpt says that he's going to be a popular buy after player see how dramatically his rules have been revamped.

>>47530392
>What are the odds that not a single card-rule in the entire game hints at these changed rules?

honest question, is there anything that hints at power up or spirit bond?

>>47530439
Is that because they are secretive, or just because they are incompetent?

I put more credence in the latter. Even not as a Skorne player, it feels like PP only really plays allot of Battlebox games.

Like the game would feel perfectly balanced if all you played was two warjacks and a Warcaster.

>>47530481
Berserker's Unstable rules is the one I can think of.

>>47530500
I think sometimes PP doesn't always build something to be competitive in mind, but rather to do something they think is cool or otherwise be weird.

>>47530399
Spam jacks is kinda what he do.

Basically:

Spam some jacks.
Add jack support.
Put something else in that's not going to get in the way of the jacks, because he doesn't support anything that's not in his battlegroup.

>>47530481
Power Up is specifically mentioned in Mohsar's feat. I don't think Spirit Bond is mentioned anywhere, but the way that rule works it would be extremely weird for model rules to interact with it since it's a subset of the fury leaching and warbeast rules.

But card rules failing to allude to some massive change in how models function while on-table is too unlikely for me to believe, when combine with the fact the PP was very eager to talk about all their fancy new core rule changes, which makes sense since that stuff gets people excited. I'm 100% sure that we know enough of the core rules to play a Mk3 game right now and have everything basically function as it should.

>>47530534
I just feel like punching that sort of design in the head because even noncompetative RPG designers spend more time on balance and effectiveness.

Why not do BOTH? Why not think through what these changes would mean and if the mechanics would match the idea in their head.

Like in a Sense a berserker with berserk makes sort of sense, but it doesn't feel right, because I felt like its Chain attack was a much better MECHANICAL representation of how visceral Berserkers would get, pouncing on their targets and headbutting them into submission, because berserk only really triggers against infantry.

It feels like PP designs with a lassiah fair "Eh?" design mentality, and then change the rules after gamer feedback.

>>47530555
A basic mk3 game anyway. I'm betting scenarios are going to be changed heavily. I'm wondering if they'll do something like 40k was for a while with "scoring" and "non-scoring" units, so that maybe only warriors can control stuff and jacks can only contest.

>>47530555
Terrain is still the one big rule that hasn't been explained, I feel. Since they said pathfinder is now working the way they wanted camouflage to work, there's definitely changes in that area.

>>47530636
No, they've got Steamroller dailed in just about how they want it, they wouldn't over-bloat it with a bunch of weird shit like that. They also know that introducing rules like that would do nothing but make steamroller harder for new players to wrap their head around (the exact opposite of their Mk3 design intent) and would likely alienate some veteran players as well.

Plus we've seen the 2016 steamroller beta test document, it's more of the same.

>>47530683
I wouldn't say it's more of the same, there's straight up a gunline friendly scenario in that package.

>>47530661
I'd bet money that all they meant with that comment is that with more terrain on the board, and terrain benefits being MUCH harder to get for non-pathfinder models due to Completely Within, Pathfinder makes it easy enough to benefit from it that they didn't need an additional "hey you should stand in terrain" rule tacked on ontop of it (after all, Camo units almost always had Pathfinder).

>>47530713
It's more of the same in that the basic formula of "HERE'S SOME GEOMETRY, STAND ON THAT SHIT TO GET POINTS" hasn't changed in the slightest. The specific geometry always changes, that's a given.

>>47530722
I dunno, one of the biggest core rule complaints of Mk2 was the huge drastic change between having Pathfinder and not having it. Pathfinder essentially let you ignore almost every piece of terrain in terms of movement, which was crippling for the armies that couldn't get it.

I can't see them just accepting that issue as the state of affairs and not doing anything to change it.

>>47530722
Oh and with defense values decreasing slightly across the board, it tracks that they wouldn't want models sitting at DEF18 just for standing in a forest.

>>47530425
Cards are most likely not finalized. Too much buggy shit. Even just for CoC, TEP can't place its own servitors while simultaneously gaining infinite shots. On the balance side of things, Lucant getting Deflection is a huge nerf. Losing Purification is one thing, but Deceleration? Not to mention he has two self upkeeps now. Unless CoC is getting a solo that can cast upkeeps, that's some straight up Skornergy right there.

>>47530777
That's been a problem since MKI. I think the problem, though, isn't the dramatic difference between having it or not, its how ridiculous easy it is for some armies to get it, while others are suffer.

Look at stuff like Circle, where its given out like candy, while armies like Skorne have to pay out of the nose for advantages like that.

>>47530850
Every single thing they've mentioned in every insider has been on these cards.

I expect that the cards are finalized and they're just that bad at quality control. They've already admitted to a lot of fuckups on cards and been like "it's already sent to the printer"

>>47530850
>Buggy Shit

Its already happened. Kharchev was supposed to have a 1 inch melee fist, but official spoilers by PP matched the bugs in which its a 0.5 melee fist.

>>47530850
Cards are almost certainly finalized, they're 100% consistent with all the official PP spoilers, and it's not like the finalized cards that PP are showing us are free from errors either.

>>47530850
Infinite shots doesn't work, they changed the wording on the whole thing.

It applies to the total of your attacks, not each individual attack.

And no, that's not Skornergy at all. The point is that he has to pick either his defensive upkeep or his offensive one.

Skornergy is when things designed to work together specifically don't do so because of rules interactions.

>>47530879
That's only the most recent one.

There are bugs going back to the first spoilers. Like the void spirit's teleport not saying once per turn.

Sadly, mk3 is just a garbage edition rushed out the door so that we can pay to playtest it for the first 6 months.

The more pessimistic way to take things is that the first six months of Mk3 is going to be an open playtest, essentially.

Which I guess is fine and all, because there's nothing wrong with needing good data from your playerbase to balance shit.

It would just be so much smoother if they'd say something like that.

Of course, I also think they're trying to avoid the massive trainwreck that was the Mk2 playtest.

Privateer press is entering a brave new world of tabletop games using the model of online videogames. Push it out to the consumer as soon as you can so that they can find the bugs, then fix them in patches. This is a beta as much as the release of any game today is.

>>47530940
>Push it out to the consumer as soon as you can

I don't think 6 years between editions is "as soon as you can".

>>47530908
I think just PP just doesn't know how to design games all that well.

Like I should have known that shit like this would happen. I mean the first thing they revealed was taking 2 jacks was now mandatory. And thinking about it thats not good design.

Its just a way to smokescreen Jacks being worse then infantry in ways.

I do believe we will be seeing some Jack spam, but only because they are so cheap and not so much because they are all that effective.

>>47530940
I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with the scheme. It certainly is going to end up as a better balanced game for it, and it's a much better stance than "We're not going to change anything barely at all" that some companies can take.

I think they just need to be more forward about why they made the changes they did, and what they thought was the issue. Like, the Warmahordes fanbase is far more apt at understanding rules interactions and things than some wargame fans can be. They just want to know why shit is getting changed. If Soles was to tell us why models lost or gained what they did from a technical standpoint, I think it would be generally smoother.

>>47530958
That implies they started work on Mk3 as soon as Mk2 was released, which is extremely unlikely.

I don't think Mk3 is all that bad, but it certainly does seem a little rushed.

Maybe they were desperate to stop all those players moving to Guildball and other games from leaving?

>>47531000
>it certainly does seem a little rushed

In what way?

>>47530989
If Soles wasn't a smug prick it would be generally smoother.

>>47530975
My argument against that is Convergence. Convergence is a faction that has huge reasons to take it's jacks, and not only because of Induction.

I don't think the whole change to jack points and the like was simply to jam jacks into the game, I think it was to change list building and army dynamics.

I mean, the overall change of the game has made armies smaller, even with the new jack points. And not just because you're bringing less infantry: my MK2 all jack Syntherion armies don't fit into Mk3, and that's with the general staying the same or cheaper jacks Convergence picked up.

They're trying to shrink the game size slightly, and put a bigger cap on the worse of the skews. Harder to ARM skew, harder to DEF skew, harder to just spam shit, even with the FA:U models.

I'm not going to claim that the transition looks perfect, but I wouldn't say they have no idea what they're doing.

>>47531028
Well, the fuckups on the cards seem to be a bit of an indication.

>>47531050
I think you're reading too much into typos.

>>47531035
Soles most certainly needs to work on his ability to interact with people, yes.

He has absolutely no fucking clue how to write an Insider.

>>47531050
You have to remember, PP's still a pretty fucking small company. I think the cards are more an indication of terrible quality control than any sort of rush on their part.

It's too easy to think about rules as you intend them rather than how they read. I'm sure no one bothered to do the infinite Spirit trick or realized the TEP couldn't place servitors because they just played as intended, and missed the conflict.

>>47531041
I think that's a good thing. MKII was feeling bloated, things were moving away from skirmish to larger forces. I think some trimming was required.

>>47530661
Terrian and all icon rules. We don't know exact wording of assault for example.

Given that almost every model has at least one icon on it. This does matter.

>>47531041
Well the convergence is what made me quit MKII in the first place:

"Oh wanna play jacks? Well this is the new REAL faction to play"

Armies are not smaller, thats basic maths:

How it would have been converted had they not increased jack points:

35 Points +5 Warjack points = 70+10=80 Points
Current Points: 50+28=78
50 Points +5 Warjack Points= 100+10=110
Current Points: 75+28=103

Its 1-4 (original point) lower, but not such a "Shrinkage" as people claim.

And maybe if warjacks where as good as PP wanted them to be, maybe people would take them even of they where not mandatory? Thats even MORE flexibility for the game.

>>47531094
Yea, design wise it seems good.

There's some other shit that's super shaking up the dynamics of the game as well, and it's just very hard to see them on paper.

I mean, Spirit Bond combined with the new Overboost rules has some pretty insane implications on Warmachine vs Hordes attrition.

Like, the dynamics of Hordes armies being better earlier while Warmachine can close a game so much better I think is going to have some weird shifts players aren't ready for, because Warlocks now have some lategame play, while Warcasters can no longer become all but invincible as the game begins to close out.

Like, camping is general is going to be a huge change, and it's hard to judge how it will pan out.

>>47530713
I know they got rid of the 6-flags non-nerio. But I think thats about it from the beta

>>47531050
A certain amount of typos is to be expected, given the volume of information that is being written up and released all at once. It really isn't an indicator of anything at the level we're seeing.

>>47531171
Is ~15% a certain amount? Because that's around the number of spoiled cards from insiders that have errors.

>>47531226
The Insiders are an incredibly small sample size, look at the full card leaks.

>>47522295
Will damiano with rocinate and all the steelheads plus more jacks to fill the points be strong in mk3? I didnt get to check the spoilers before they were taken down. And how is the pirate boat holding up?

>>47526395

Silly willy increases the spell range by 2" he also gives her an additional die to hit dropping the lowest so you don't always have to boost to hit. He also upkeeps fog of war to free. Thanks to pre measuring sorscha should be able to maintain a distance of 16" between her and the enemy army.

Because the spell now costs 3 you can freeze huge chunks of the enemy army thanks to things like the field gun, black oil, tough rolls, ice cage, and other ways of reducing somethings defense drastically within the faction. If you absolutely had to you could use the feat and then double cast the spell on different y units to catch the scragglers she couldnt draw LOS to.

In mk2 you would only use the feat in response to failing to freeze an enemy unit. The spell is actually more powerful than the feat due to it being less conditional.

In conclusion, if you just started playing the game a few months ago it's best to just keep your mouth shut about casters you don't understand.

>>47531148
>Armies are not smaller,

My industry standard Morv2 list at 50 points in mk2 is exactly 75 in Mk3 (with the caveat that I've got two battlegroup points that I cheat on infantry because I'm trying to do an apples-to-apples comparison).

My standard 50 pt mk2 Kaya2 list is 77 points in mk3.

It's pretty close from what I've seen, *unless* you're spamming the stuff that just got made dirt cheap.

>>47531257
Depends on what pirate boat

Coup de Main now only targets privateer models (so no speeding up nomads or manglers), but shae got flashing blade and 1 inch range which is nice.

Since the commodore now goes with any privateer caster I'm leaving shae at home. Otherwise the pirate boat is largely the same. Doc gives himself 4+ tough now which is nice. Meg isn't as good anymore because her drive doesn't give out free charges.

>>47531257
Pirate boat is basically unchanged, but might suffer because of a general increase in infantry-hate in Mk3.

Damiano and Rocinante are both basically unchanged. Sure Foot is now model/unit instead of an aura, and Rocinante went up to P+S18, and Damiano's gun now hits everything in a 3" aoe with a POW12 when you do it's blaster thing which is cool.

As for Steelheads themselves, Riflemen and Halberdiers are basically the same, I think they got cheaper. Cavalry gained a point of ARM and MAT but lost Backswing. Sgt Nick specifically buffs Halberdiers now rather than all Steelheads, though I think his little tough bubble is still any warrior model.

>>47529166
>I'm sure most people would prefer to keep using their infantry armies from mk2.

>implying all these implications

Go play WHFB if you want dudespam. I'm going to play Warmachine for the war machines.

>>47531257
the steelhead mob is not going to do well. infantry hate, in particular bigger blast aoes, is going to shit on the halberdiers. riflemen got cheaper but still suck (they might be worth it with damiano thanks to money shot/deadeye though). the heavy cav got nerfed brutally, losing backswing and 1" of reach

merc jacks got better and cheaper, and with damianos feat piece-trade fantastically.

if youre willing to look at other merc units, both nyss and devil dogs get a lot from damiano. orin is going to be a situational power piece for shutting down opposing spells. forge guard are still very solid.

>>47531448
Is there anything in mercenaries that can give girded? Because the steelheads are the best jamming unit in the game for their points if you can mitigate the blast vulnerability.

Like I've been wondering about fielding them with gorten for solid ground.

>>47530548

I'm cool with the jackspam in general. I'm just looking for a more balanced battlegroup than 8 Crusaders.

>>47531422
>Go play WHFB
Now that's just mean.

Anyone have a link to that Mammoth conversion that was standing up looking like a Titan Cannoneer?

>>47531632

Well, my line of thinking is -- and I'm planning on running Amon as my main tournament caster to start off Mk3 -- is that for each chassis you have on the table, you get a focus, parry, and +2 SPD and Pathfinder, so erring on the side of more raw chassis is generally going to be better.

The main trick is to be able to receive the opening round of piece trading, lose a couple of jacks, retaliate, lose a couple more jacks, and still have enough left over to win largely unopposed.

Ghetorix with Primal and one of Circle's buffs/debuffs (Forced Evolution, Curse of Shadows, Scything Touch now) hits an at effective STR 23. Your tanky Crusader is at ARM 21, and Gheto needs a median of 4 swings to kill one. If you take a Templar at a +50% point premium, he needs 5 swings. I don't think the difference matters enough for the point cost differential.

Furthermore (and this to me is the big thing), when you eat a charge from infantry, you want to trample them next turn, likely putting your jack in a position in which it dies horribly the next turn. This is how you kill mass infantry, and the problem then becomes that you start thinking about putting your Crusaders out front instead of your better jacks so you can sacrifice them more easily, and then it's a case of why are you taking more expensive jacks when they hide behind the Crusaders until late-game anyway?

The list is going to work because you can send in PS 23 jacks to die *repeatedly* and then replace them with your reserves. Having non-replaceable jacks just gives you weaknesses to exploit.

That said I'm seriously considering running a couple of Castigators because a) they're not much more expensive, b) auto-hit 2" thresher is pretty cool, and c) the extra speed makes them slightly better at hiding behind the expendable Crusaders and still being able to do work.

I'm also running two Sunbursts, mostly because a Sunburst is cheaper than upgrading a Crusader to a Vanquisher.

>>47531334
>>47531257
riflemen are considerably cheaper ( 2 mk.II points for the full unit) which makes them much more viable

>>47531237
Well, we know whats supposed to be a typo because the Devs have aknowledged them

>>47531944

Hey, fair enough. You've given me things to think about.

>>47530661
That is probably the only thing we know nothing about yet. Maybe every unit will have MK2-Pathfinder? Maybe Pathfinder will now grant certain benefits while within terrain.

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>>47531422
Rip

>>47531497
no. outside of gorten, theres durgen with force field but thats all.

i could see an aggressive durgen list with a couple of bokurs and a cheaper battlegroup being a thing, relying on light infantry protected by solid ground and midwinter to be a solid choice for scenario play.

something like this:

Gorten (thats only 38 new points of jacks)
-basher
-basher
-driller
-driller
-syls 4

full halberdiers 11
full halberdiers 11
full kayazy w/ ua 19


bokur 5
bokur 5
orin 5
versh 4
rhupert/thor/verendrye/gibbs 4

just run forward and jam. losses are expected but against most lists should be tolerable. gorten with two bokurs should be able to play up for the ideal feat

alexia1 would be very strong, but requires cutting versh would is also very strong with solid ground and his new rof against buffed targets which are going to be more common with upkeep hate getting weaker

>>47523306

not enough quantity of attacks. a much scarier list involves a few quality jacks and then great infantry and support, not pants on head retarded lists like khador players trying to spam juggers.

>>47529166
>How likely is it that the community will decide
There are no house rules in this game.

>>47532517
Sure there are.

Look at the steamroller terrain rules and then look at how people actually deploy terrain in this game.

>>47530975
>PP just doesn't know how to design games all that well.
Wait, wut? You've been playing Warmachine since how many years? But the company that makes warmachine doesn't know how to make games?

>yer an idjut.

>>47531944
If you're playing amon, You've essentially got the old enliven though- Something charges you and you walk away, no problem.
Assuming you take a vassal, but I feel thats probably a safe assumption.

>>47532571
The best made games are not necessarily the ones that get the most popular.

Again and I quit during MK II, Im here to see how it turns out.

Zerkova1 Doom Reaver Cloudwall
Zerkova1
~Ruin
~Juggernaught
Doom Reavers
Doom Reavers
Doom Reavers
Doom Reavers
Doom Reavers
Fenris

And people say dudespam is dead

>>47532545
what do you mean? the current SR pack says 5-7 bits of terrain, that's what's usually on tables.

>>47532635
I see 4 pieces pretty often. And 1-2 of those are tiny ass obstructions. They tend to not follow the rules for how big terrain needs to be. The boards are empty af.

so is it even possible to order any mk3 shit or is it all on back order?

>>47532572
Yeah, old enliven is what makes Amon so strong with jack spam. You commit a unit/beast/jack to attacking one, it walks away. You kill a jack or two after that? We've got replacements.

And then you get to ignore non-magical shooting or spells on the approach. And then the jack in the center and any in b2b are knockdown immune even if you don't take the book.

He just counters so much tech and then Crusader-07 walks in past the corpse of Crusader-02.

I think people are underestimating tramples under synergy, too.

>>47532915
No one has ever underestimated tramples because tramples are bad. It doesn't matter how much damage you can do with one if overlap rules mean you can't do one.

>>47533003
The number one reason why they likely revamped them.

>>47533382
Trample wen't through Prime remix, and got errataed to be worse in MKII. Bulldozer was even errataed made not to work with it.

I have a feeling its working exactly as intended.

>>47533764
I mean, how many years has it been since Mk2 started?

They could have changed their mind, but held off on any complex errata with the idea that it would change in Mk3.

>>47533848
Again, they started nerfing trample as soon as the beginning of the game.

I have no fucking clue what PP plans or is thinking.

>>47533905
And yet they still think it's a good thing worth doing.

See: Mad Dog, who has two roles: Trample, and be 7 points of arm 18 with 30ish boxes on the field being in the way.

All its rules are based around trampling but trampling is total shit.

And they think trampling is so good that bulldozing with it would be broken.

>>47532657
>I see 4 pieces pretty often. And 1-2 of those are tiny ass obstructions. They tend to not follow the rules for how big terrain needs to be. The boards are empty af.

Not where I play. In fact, we rarely use obstructions. It's usually forests, rough terrain, hills, and the occasional trench.

Being a Menoth player, I'm quite fond of walls.

>>47533941

they've stuck trample on a few huge bases now, its a bit of a joke

>>47534105
Or they revamped it for the new edition to make it far more useful.

>>47534129
Its a 50/50 split.

It could go either way. Im not holding my breath.

>>47534129

sincerely doubt it...

>>47532592

Well, they have two things going for them.

1. Matt Wilson is very good at creating worlds
2. DC was pretty good at making rules

Other than that, it's really kind of a mess. Their business office and main product manager is a joke. The manner in which they've handled their IP to 3rd party companies has been laughable and their quality control in house should be an embarrassment to them.

Then again, it's important to remember this is a small company basically being managed by people with little to no business experience (or education) so it's not shocking.

They'll continue to do pretty good. Mainly because or the two things I typed above, good IP and a pretty workable rule system. As time goes on, we'll see how bad the gamers turned businessmen fuck up the company though.

>>47534199
>>47534205
More I think about it, more I think it has to be that.

Reckoning saw two Trample focused models released, and I bet you can call that entire book an Mk3 preview, given the release schedule.

Between that and all the models picking up Trample in Mk3, something has to have changed with the rule. The only other Trample model I can think of is the Razorwing.

Why the sudden push of Trample? Especially given they cut half the power attacks in the game for not ever being used.

In fact, I wonder if they didn't amp up the Power Attacks in general. The only really good ones were Double Handed Throw and Headbutt. Slams and Tramples might have gotten some love.

>>47534208
IKRPG is easily one of the better fucking fantasy worlds I've ever seen, yea.

It's amazing how so many settings set out with this idea of making Elves and Dwarves as different as possible and the setting ends up feeling so flat, while IK managed to make Elves feel pretty close to the "original" version while still being drastically different.

Even the Dwarves have some pretty interesting differences, though Warmahordes doesn't really focus on it. Well, besides all the merc work they do.

I still enjoy reading through the old IKRPG books, the setting is just so fucking well done.

>>47534270
Which is when playing an IKRPG I recommend getting a ruleset you like, and playing with that system just using that world.

The original world in the books is much better then the new IKRPG which is more like "Warmachine-The tabletop RPG version".

>>47534305
Yeah, the IKRPG rules are garbage

>>47534305
The new system isn't bad, it's just exactly that, yea. It's an RPG system designed for Warmahordes players. Not bad, just fairly niche and focused.

I like the character creation idea, even if in practice it can cause some issues. Picking two careers to mix and match can create some really interesting character ideas.

>>47534330
Right but its more "How I can replicate a warcaster from the Minis Game" then anything else.

Man this wargame is riding almost completely on its setting. Wouldn't be the first time.

>>47534353
Na, the wargame has some stuff going for it.

It's generally well balanced, for all the bitching, and it has very clear rules interactions. The fact that if there is a rules interaction you're unsure of you can go ask and get an official answer, which usually ends up in the errata if it's a big enough of a deal, has always been one of the things I liked about WM/H. No stupid gray area stuff.

>>47534406
I guess thats fair.

All I saw was people complaining about their speed 6 def 13 arm 15 stealth reach infantry being nerfed. Here I am with my speed 5 def 12 arm 15 infantry laughing.

>>47533003
>>47534991


Just iron zeal, arcane shield and striker feat to make those stormblades arm 26 so they can die to anatomical precision anyway

>>47534991
What unit are you refering to?

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has anyone used crackle paint/paste for their bases and have any tips? I saw some pretty nice looking ice bases while googling so I'm thinking of giving it a try

>>47535918
You'll want to apply it real thick, since the chunks get larger the thicker layer of crackle paint is.

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>>47535918
Not crackle paint but I did ice bases before that turned out fine I guess?

>>47524737

Oh wow. Didn't notice Artillerist.

This dude will be good with a lot of Khador jacks. Especially their Colossals.

>>47536126

thanks, so to get an effect like the one I posted I would huge gob in the middle and thin it on the edges?

>>47536241

looks good, is it shards of plastic?

someones got a link to the spoiler dump pretty please?

>>47536388
Yeah. Its literally the blister pack being glued messily on the bottom, to a painted base, and just white drybrushing on top.The rest is just a bit of gravel and snow flock.

>>47536388
No, it'll probably be smaller cracks toward the edge naturally. But maybe it's enhanced by doing as you suggested, I haven't tried it before.

The parts sticking up and out of the ice base were likely put there beforehand .

Does anyone know how the timing for Killing Spree and Void Walk work?

>>47536546

They both happen at the same time (on Destroyed) so you get to choose when and in what order it happens.

So you can killing spree through a bunch of dudes and when you finally run out of stuff within 1" to move to, you can teleport 8" and continue with the last "killing spree" attack. You only get 1 teleport though so you can't just keep going around. Apparently they already erratad that.

>>47536546
Exactly like it would in Mk2. After each kill you get to choose which one triggers first since they're simultaneous, so you can do a killing spree chain then on the last one do a Void Walk and start another chain.

Also, just in case you missed it, Void Walk is our first confirmed Mk3 errata target because it was supposed to say "once per turn", so Void Spirits can only munch two chains of infantry rather than every warrior model on the table.

>>47536420
http://www.megafileupload.com/b1si/fljkjv.rar

No Trolls or Cygnar tough

>>47536595
>>47536616
Still nasty, though. Would be fun with Despoiler pooping out more each turn.

>>47532618
Irusk 2 and Vlad 2 would also be good candidates for doomie spam.

>>47530262
>butcher is a better jack caster than karchev
Nah, butcher is a bad jack caster. At least as far as melee is concerned. No tricks, no threat extension.
Have you ever tried to play against any really good jack/beast list with butcher? You will always be alpha'ed on by longer threats. Simple things like admonition, enliven or polarity shield will be impossible to deal with.

Karchev can either get non-linear 12 inch threats or sit back and shoot to force people into your counter charge. And he can stop people from running away via his knockdown spray.

So is Garryth and Sentinel a trap? Worth running an AFG?

What are your ideas for Garryth in general? He looks kinda dope on paper.

So, Slayer or Seether?

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Any one else struggling with trade communities? At full retail I can go "Nah, too expensive" but when it's 50% off and just requires me to strip it, it's way fucking harder to resist.

I'm now playing Crocs purely because of how cool Croak raiders are and cheap deals on Minions stuff on a Facebook trade group. But I'm really tempted to get some farrow beasts and warlocks because I want to burn the world..

>>47537890
>50%

I wish, in my area it's more like 10-20% unless it's a lot that they want thousands for

>>47537968
>in my area it's more like 10-20%
You can get that on NIB from stores fairly easy, who the fuck would buy second-hand at that price?

>>47537890

Which ones are legit?

I'm wanting to grab more Legion stuff and I figure there's got to be a couple jumpers I could get stuff cheap from.

>>47537992
Facebook UK trade group is legit as far as I see. It sucks but everything moved to Facebook.

>>47537968
I've got stuff for up to 60% off. It's a matter of waiting for a good deal

>>47537987
>>47538022

nobody buys and stuff sits for a year with no further discounts, they're pretty terrible

>>47537540
Both are strong but lack synergy. Sentinels will be highly used in MKIII as they will eat a jack alive and have enough arm to take some punishment getting there. Solid anchor unit for Retribution.

Garryth will be interesting but depends on the scenarios, he does nothing to support but he's goddamn unstoppable when he wants to be.

>>47537798
There's no reason ever to take a Slayer over a now quite cheap Seether.
10 vs 13 points and you get a jack that can kill stuff for a change.

>>47538705
i can't get into seethers. "must run or charge" just puts me off. POW 16 vs 17 doesn't matter with cryx debuffs, but DEF 12 vs 13 sure does. maybe i'm just thinking about Vinny and the seethers have redundancy with his FM

>>47537987
my store does zero discounts. and it is no way hurting for money bc it does a ton of business, especially with MtG. it's bullshit.

>>47537798
it's really slightly more spam vs slightly higher quality. the only real issue with slayers in mk2 was you'd only really want to pay for 1 outside morty and it would get shot to death by POW 10s on the approach. with 3 for free thats less of an issue, and they do work when they actually arrive

>>47539145
Then buy online. Anything above $10 order online.

>>47539212
been doing that. PP's new policy just chafes my ass for this reason even if i know it probably helps a ton of other metas stay open.

>>47539230
Makes no fucking difference with the way they're handling MKIII.

I'm seriously considering ordering a Circle starter set just to get a rulebook in the UK

>>47529771
>ilo being not shit
this brave new world

>>47539109
You don't use them for power attacks, you use them for hitting the enemy.

Gunnbjorn
--Runebearer
--Glacial King
--Bomber
--Pyre Troll
--Winter Troll

Fireeaters
Fireeaters

Bonegrinders (min)

Krielstone (min)
--UA

>>47539279
where the fuck did you get power attacks from that

That's something that has confused me for awhile. Why do people have such a hard time with "Glacier King"? Was it ever called Glacial King, or is that how it is translated abroad?

>>47539230

Never forget that a hobby is a luxury. Its a privilege not a right as the Americans say it.

How much you wish to spend is entirely up to you. But people seems to forget that this is more than a game sometimes, throwing themselves over the "horrible price range" argument because they cant afford a full 75 pt list with additional options. Not even considering the time and effort it would take to paint and assemble this lot.

This is exactly why privateer press tries to implement the journeyman league I think. To remind people of a wargame time long lost. A time when you made a small purchase, took care of that investment with careful assembly, cleaning and painting, before you moved on. Over the course of time, you actually had a full army, and despite the high cost of the total value, you had planned ahead and spent money over the course of time, so that id didn't take that hard on your personal economy.
Now days, people want their hobby like everything else, now, not later! If you get the feeling a Khador army would be cool, you want it on your table by nightfall, anything else is not acceptable.

Sometimes I miss the good´ol days of this hobby. Especially when I see the degenerative influence the rest of society has brought upon our way of thinking.

>>47539315
The only downside to mandatory running and charging is that you can't do power attacks.

>>47539337

I just noticed I did that. lol

I think it's just a trick of the mind. Glacial is an adjective (Describing what type of king it is), whereas Glacier is a noun. So I think my mind is autocorrecting it to make it an adjective...

>>47539282

To expand on why I built that list:

Glacial King + Guiding Fire = duh Lets him have all his shots fully boosted on attack/damage

Bomber the same as above
Pyre is another AOE + Fireeaters presence
Winter Troll is money for clearing infantry

Fireeaters work very well with Gunny. Can't take ranged damage for a round, which means enemy can't shoot them off the board, the Pyre won't hurt them when it lights them up and the Fireeaters can effectively get "Clear" on Gunny's feat turn

Bonegrinders are fury management

Krielstone duh

>>47539399
ah, wasn't referring to power attacks so much as being forced to spend that focus to run/charge even if you don't want to (so long as you can).

>>47539357
>the degenerative influence the rest of society has brought upon our way of thinking
go back to /pol/ if you want people to care about bullshit nonsense like this

>>47539508

So you disagree that we as a society have evolved a "take now, pay later" mindset?

Hmm.. interesting, never thought people on /tg/ was this stupid or blind.

Which Eiryss is best? I'm looking at abusing Refuge with Kaelyssa and Narn, but I want a second and a third target if need be.

>>47539508
/pol/ is welcome here. We are all brothers in arms against the kike empire.

>>47525870
did someone get high and on that basis determine demo corps were somehow too good. backswing or additional die seemed pretty good but even then i never saw these on the table. without either, what's the point? what are they supposed to do that shockers don't do better?

>>47525991
the cryx caster stuff is the most confusing. in a design paradigm that usually goes with "remove option A, B, or C from X model to improve its balance relative to other models" they whole hog removed options A-M from multiple casters. it's baffling.

>>47539489
Seethers run and charge for free.

>>47536357
Hark + 2 kapitans. Victor fires once with one kapitan, then he broadsides with the second one.

>>47539526
Peddle your neoreactionary bullshit elsewhere.

>>47539536
assault, upkeep removal, free shots punishing casting vs disruption/losing all focus/fury or ignoring los. depends but 2 has a lot going for her, she's also a WM with Blessed and reposition. that clinches it in a lot of cases

>>47537798
I think the inflictor will be Cryx's primer heavy non character jack

>>47539526
>So you disagree that we as a society have evolved a "take now, pay later" mindset?

People have always been like that. The original economic systems between people consisted mainly of IOUs..

"Pay now and you don't get anything a second before you pay," is a much more modern concept.

>>47539705
and it's a fucking sexy model to boot, the art did not do it justice

>>47539567
The 'balancing' of Gaspy2 is a travesty compared to kruegar2, goatvannah and Haley 2-3

>>47539914

Krueger2 getting rebuke is fucking bonkers.

'Balance'. He was one of the most played Circle locks before, will be now.

>>47539914
Gaspy2 needed the hit.

Krueger2 no longer gets an easy ass forward feat, and with SPD buffs not stopping charges, no longer gets to be super safe on whatever he feats.

Haley2 lost a lot. She can no longer camp to be super safe, and she lost her best tools for protection at range. She's super fucking vulnerable to getting shot to death now.

Haley3 lost her revive tricks.

Hey guys, can't look at the spoilers on this device for some reason, all I want to know is if kaya1/2 are good now

>>47540012
Didn't change much either way mate.