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Because Evil Wizards are better than Good Wizards.
>>46091240
I touched up and made some changes to the homebrew oathbreaker variant I presented in the last thread, and wanted to know what people think:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sy6swdl3gat67wp/Oathbreaker%20Variant%20v1.5.rtf?dl=0
What should I change? What needs rebalancing?
Scan when?
scan when?
Am I gimping my Bladesinger by getting 2 levels of fighter?
>>46091606
Yes.
>>46091622
So is pure Bladesinger better?
>>46091240
Because good is dumb
On a scale of 1 to useless, how bad would a wizard focused on abjuration and transmutation be?
>>46091635
What are you giving up two wizard levels for? Seriously. I see no case for a fighter 2 / bladesinger x. Manliness? You gave that up when you went wizard. And you doubled down when you went elf.
>>46091700
two weapon fighting
I've come up with a character concept I want to play around with. It's a holy man who goes head-first into battle swinging a warhammer and singing his own praises.
To accomplish this I'm thinking Paladin/Valor Bard multiclass. Paladin 2/Bard X seems like it'll accomplish what I want, I'm just a little iffy about delaying extra attack too long.
Not doing this to be a munchkin or anything, I just want to make sure the build is actually somewhat viable.
The idea of being a musical fighting holyman just seems pretty rad to me.
>>46091735
You don't need to take levels in Bard to be musical. You can just start singing any time you attack or use one of your features.
>>46091793
Yeah I was considering that, I just liked the idea of also being able to buff up allies with Combat Inspiration.
>>46091248
Is this not the place to post this sort of thing?
>>46091655
>protects your bros
>musclewizards with the fighting men
You're on the team, champ.
>>46091841
It is since the homebrew dedicated thread died forever like half a year ago. Doesn't mean a lot of people are interested or that they are experienced enough to have valuable judgement. I fall into the second group, it looks cool but I haven't played the archetype myself so I'm not sure what it changes playstyle/balance-wise.
>>46091958
There's also the interest factor. The amount of feedback your homebrew will get varies dramatically by how interesting it is, good or bad.
>>46091851
Awesome. This will be my first character in my new group and I don't want to have to be carried through each encounter and piss people off
>>46091708
That extra damage on the off-hand attack is never going to be as good as your highest-level wizard spell.Giving up your highest level of spells for that would be psychotic, especially since it would require a feat to cast with your hands full and maybe another feat to make your bad two-weapon fighting marginally better. Those are feats you're buying instead of ability score increased to get your Int and Dex up, because bladesingers are kind of MAD.
>>46091841
>>46091958
Really I'm just not satisfied with the current Oathbreaker's focus on domination and managing undead, and wanted to make something a bit different, but still with an antipaladin feel.
>>46092110
You could do what one of the first writeups of antipaladins did and focus on disease and poison.
>>46092110
What is an antipaladin?
Just a paladin of evil?
Because the opposite of a paladin would just be an opportunist without a code of ethics.
what do you guys think of NPC as a class? like start out as a guard at level 1, then a scout or thug at level 2, and keep swapping NPC or monster stats until you have planetary or marilith abilities at level 20
>>46092186
An antipaladin is a paladin with its charge and parity reversed
Don't let them touch a normal paladin, or they'll disappear in a burst of gamma rays
>>46092186
A blackguard. A magic knight with ties closer to the world of darkness than the world of light.
>>46092197
Why not a Mimic class? Like a Ditto, able to copy monsters and NPCs.
>Make a NE wizard of minor annoyances
>see barbarian order a pint of honey mead
>use prestidigitation to change it to wheat mead when he isn't looking
>gnome craftsman is working on a project
>use minor illusion to make one of the nails appear to be missing
>watch as he stumbles around looking for it
>druid is picking berries
>use thaumatergy to make the bush shake so she can't quite pick them up
>cleric is reading her bible of her deity
>conjure sticky glue to hold some of the pages together
muhaha, the world is my playground.
>>46092197
Not a good idea. A CR X monster is a lot stronger and more durable than a level X character, because they're meant to challenge a whole party of that level. Which is why the CR 6 mage is a 9th level spellcaster with way more hit points than even a 9th level wizard would have.
>>46092246
devilish
>>46092214
I'm working on something similar, making an "Ivalice Mage" class with a Blue Mage subclass that learns monster and NPC abilities
>>46092214
>forms known and daily forms prepared
>transformation spell slots of various CRs
>low CR transformation slots recover on short rest, higher CR slots on long rest
I don't know what it would do outside of that, though. And it'd be a lot of paperwork, moreso than druid, because you can become various spellcasters.
>>46092407
It doesn't seem too complicated honestly
Just have the monster manual on hand
Also needs some restrictions
>can only turn into creatures seen/faced in battle
>can turn for a number of rounds inversely proportional to cr of form
Etc, to taste
>>46091655
Just fine. Nothing is wrong with ether school.
>>46092517
>can only turn into creatures seen/faced in battle
Yeah, that's what I meant by "forms known".
What I meant was:
Without spell slots, casters still have cantrips.
Without action surge etc, fighters can still hit things.
What does a mimic do when it has exhausted its forms?
Hey, /5eg/, i need your awesome ideas. My PCs are encountering a boss tonight and he's a wizard, who can make magical paintings and put people in them. So, the boss room is filled with different paintings and he can throw them in there. The problem is i can't come up with something better than "a room filled with gas" or "a room with 2 trolls". Any good ideas? The rooms shouldn't be deathtraps, just obstacles to split the party for a couple of rounds.
Anyone ever do body swap shenanigans in their campaign? I'm thinking of putting a trap in my campaign's main dungeon which features a hand-shaped slot for each party member. When they put their hands in, I announce 'pass your character sheets to the player on your left.'
Anything bad that could happen?
>>46092667
Oh and I need a good means to resolve the situation. Any thoughts?
>>46092667
"Cool, I'm Kelly now? I throw myself from a cliff."
Replace with:
>sell myself to a brothel
>sex the dwarf now being played by the half elf
>die hideously because I don't know how to play this class well
>murder a town of civilians until Kelly is the most wanted person in the empire
To taste.
>>46092630
literally anything would do.
>You're on a small rowboat on a lake. There are lilly pads.
>You're in a noble's bedroom. There is a four-poster bed and a fine porcelain wash basin.
>You're trapped in a bowl full of fresh fruit.
If the goal is to split up the party temporarily and set them back a bit, you don't need the scenarios to be intrinsically hazardous. If the rest of the lair is hazardous, simply being short one or more player characters is dangerous enough to motivate some action.
>>46091240
>Evil Wizards are better than Good Wizards
Undecided, but being evil does not mean they don't get hot girlfriends.
>>46092712
So mostly immature players being dumb and not playing in character. The capability to fight as other people's characters might be an issue. I'll build combat scenarios which intensify as they do well in them that I can easily end early.
>>46092630
What are you going for with the paintings?
>Split the party up in separate paintings while they need to escape
>The same fight with the wizard all the time, but the wizard can put everyone including himself into the picture to change the fight with some extra effects (It's a cold world, difficult terrain, can slip, take damage on a failed con save)
>The wizard puts them in there to get a break from fighting them, while they try to get out of the painting
>Something else
So anyone else who watched chris perkins run ravenloft on dice camers action like the character evelyn? Idk I know its kinda odd to have a southern female paladin but I really dig goody two shoes characters plus she wields a battleaxe.
I'm going to run Out of the Abyss soon, and the next time my group meets I'll have them make characters.
What, if anything, should the players know beforehand? Not just with this module, but with any campaign.
>>46092630
A room filled with picture frames, every one of which looks like the room they just came in from. They have to keep their bearings and figure out which is the real way out.
An idyllic paradise full of nymphs or whatever who try to make the PCs forget their mission.
A battlefield full of wounded and dying people crying for aid. They're not real and just there to distract the more good-natured members of the party and get them to waste some healing spells. They turn into puddles of paint if removed from the painting.
Do I run Out of the Abyss of Princes of the Apocalypse?
My group really appreciates heavy character building and good roleplay situations with combat to keep it interesting.
Which module is the best?
>>46092853
>The wizard puts them in there to get a break from fighting them, while they try to get out of the painting
He's gonna use bigby's hand to push some of them into paintings while fighting the rest in the room.
>>46087684
>>46087729
>but an estoc is not a two-handed weapon by design. you see some estocs with a hand-and-half handle and pommel variation, probably for a more 'strength based' thrusting move, so at the very most it could use the versatile trait.
>sorry, let me correct myself. Some models of estoc have lengthened pommels for some extra precision and leverage, not necessarily extra thrusting power. But don't think the estoc is inherently a weapon that requires any more dexterity than a longsword. Dark Souls made everyone think an estoc is used like a rapier when it really is just a longsword with a much thinner blade for piercing mail.
Where are you getting your information?
>Some estoc blades retain cutting edges while others are so thick in cross-section that they are simply hilted spikes. All are very stiff and acutely pointed in order to exploit the narrow gaps in plate armour of the day. Although the weapon is most commonly thought of as a cavalry weapon (sometimes even couched as a lance), it can certainly be used on foot as well.
>The estoc featured a long, two-handed grip, enabling the bearer to achieve maximum effect as he thrust the sword downwards into armor. This sword was particularly effective at splitting chainmail and piercing gaps in armor. Due to the narrowness of the blade, it had no discernible cutting edge but a very strong point.
All the sources I can find mention either hand-and-a-half or two hands, and mention that cutting edges are rare in the archetypal estoc. The point about requiring dexterity is moot, because you could apply the same argument to any other weapon in the game. The strength-dexterity divide is simply an artefact of the game system being gamey.
In any case I'm starting to think that while a thematically pleasing addition, a 1d10 two-handed finesse weapon would be utterly redundant in the game anyway. I mean, no one uses a longsword two-handed either, right? They use a greatsword, or a shield.
So i wanna check if this build is any good:
Pointbuy for stats.
10 Str
16 Dex
11 Con
10 Int
16 Wis
10 Cha
Wood elf
Monk1/Battlemaster 5
Defensive duelist feat instead of lvl 4 ASI
Mariner fighting style
Trip, Lunge and Riposte maneuvers.
Mainly built around using versatile Dex spears and wearing no armour.
The extra unarmed strike on each attack also helps even if it's only 1d4 extra damage.
Sailor background.
Tool proficiency: Navigators tools, Vehicle (water), Cartographer's tools, Calligrapher's supplies.
Skills: Athletics, Acrobatics, Insight, Perception
>>46091700
Eldritch 10/Bladesinger 10 is my favorite of the two multi classing options. You won't hit quite as hard as the fighter, but you'll still do decebt of damage and be fairly beefy with your Eldritch levels (plus Warcaster, and the 10 Wizard levels give you access to Level 7 slots, Song of Defense, Int to AC, and a lot of cantrips for some out of combat (and in combat) versatility that a single classed fighter probably couldn't reach. It might not be the most optimal build, but I think it captures the flavor of a more magical Wizard Knight than pure EK or Bladesinger give.
>>46091735
Maybe a War Cleric? I think it kind of fits fluff wise while still having some support abilities, but Paladins are REALLY good support too.
You can change editions, but the fandom is still the same shit
>Enter game
>Ask GM if I can dual weild hand crossbows with crossbow expert, I know it doesn't work like that, but mechanically makes no difference, I still make two attacks
>GM tells me in a blunt and harsh way no
>Kay, like I said, I still make the same attacks and I save money not buying a second hand crossbow
>Play game normally
>Suddenly Goliath NPC with flamming greatsword, tower shield (yeah, you heard right, a shield the size of a human) and heavy crossbow in the tower shield hand (yeah, you heard right, he can attack with the heavy crossbow with one hand, which happens to be the shield hand and retains AC, and all that sith, and yeah, he attacks with the greatsword in one hand) and a total AC above 26
>Fucking stand up and leave without even pickign my PC sheet
>GM makes child noises to mock me
>Ignore and leave
>Week later heard two players left that game
>>46093094
>playing with random autists and expecting quality
You don't have any friends who play?
So, Adventurer's League at my store has only ever run tier 2 (level 5 and above) modules once and it was a TPK. There were also two TPKs in Death House. Should I just leave for another store or try to teach these shitters how to play? I have but one ally in this endeavor, and we both had to build tanks in order to deal with it.
And I mean, I'm not saying it isn't fun to walk around as a pair of muscle head brothers tank and spanking everything that comes our way while shouting at all the idiot mages to get behind us, but we can do that without sorceresses charging into a group of ghouls to use her cantrip.
>>46093194
if they are good people and fun to play with just teach them how to play
fun players > silent WAAC fags
>>46093229
silent WAAC fags?
>>46093250
win at all costs
dark clothing, quiet, minmaxed characters, no role playing, you know the type.
>>46093229
Grab bag, I like the old players that I actually know, but for the last two sessions I've been at the newbie table by luck of the straws, and the newbs suck.
>I loot the jewelry
>"prestidigitation to make the jewelry smell like shit"
>Why.png
>>46093194
Just play it out. Some idiot wants to yolo a sorcerer into melee with a bunch of ghouls? Cry out a warning, in character. When he inevitably gets his dumb ass killed, get all distraught, in character, and lament their poor judgment. Make sure to play up what a pain in the ass it is to get the dead sorcerer's corpse back to his family.
>11 sessions in and still not even one crit
champion/barb was a mistake
>>46091240
I'll be playing with a new group in 2 days, a monk, a druid, a bard and a fighter or paladin (unsure which as of yet)
What's a good character that will slot into this group
and what exactly do people mean when they say "utility"
>>46093194
I've run Death House, it's not great. It commits one of the greatest sins of an adventure module, requiring the players toeither succeed on a Perception check in one of two dozen rooms OR investigate a specific object in the house in order to progress past the first area. Any adventure which literally grinds to a halt unless the players perform one specific (and non-obvious) action is a badly designed adventure.I honestly preferred Hoard of the Dragon Queen, which is about as bland and railroading as they get, at least it's better than Death House.
>>46093377
Champion is never a mistake. Champion is love.
>>46093094
As a DM who needs to design several BBEGs, I'll tell you this:
>Rules are for the players
Or better, rule 0.
Especially if it involves a BBEG that will get killed and mostly forgotten.
I get your point though, what he did was way out of whack
>>46093398
I'd say a ranged rogue if you want to be a martial or a cleric if you want to be a caster
Is Curse of Strahd in the megatrove? Can't find it
>>46091958
I've felt for a while that there should be a general thread for homebrew classes, races and such. While there has been an on and off homebrew geenral, that's mostly been about making entire game systems rather than doing homebrew content for existing games, and in game-specific generals the focus is more on talking about official material so unless it's very interesting any homebrew stuff tends to get buried by other posts.
Speaking of homebrew, what kind of abilities should a class themed around Yog-Sothot have? My setting has expies of the Lovecraftian Outer Gods as pretty prominent role in the cosmology, so I figured I could homebrew some classes tied to them.
The intrepertion of Yog I'm going with is the not-at-all-antropomorphic personification of space/time and energy, (opposite of Shub-Niggurath's life and matter, ie. the physical parts of the universe).
>>46093522
I'd revise this to "character creation rules are for players." A big part of the DM's job is to adjudicate the rules, so the most of the rules absolutely are for the DM, most of the time.
>>46093596
There's no full scan yet.
>>46093522
1.
>BBEG
It wasn't a BBEG, it was a questgiver, didn't stay to see the BBEG and as far as I know it was pure shit, that's why two other players left leaving only the GM and his best friend.
2.
>Rules are for players
Found That GM. This is not about you fapping to your wankfaggotry and how much awesomely bullshit you can make your DMPCs.
3. There're rules, statend in the amount of XP monsters give you and in the CR, giving 20 actions, every spell ever infinite times per day, seven shields and 100 sword, etc to your BBEG/DMPC is not smart, not fun, not cool and doesn't make you a better GM.
>>46093522
>Rules are for humanoid characters
Fixed that for you.
A golem build to wield a greatsword and a tower shield with built-in crossbow is fair game, it's a machine and was built to function that way and it's inherently capable of exceeding what humans are capable of.
If a humanoid NPC can wield a greatsword and a tower shield with built-in crossbow, the PCs should expect to be able to do so as well with the proper proficiencies and/or class features. To do otherwise is to present an inconsistent world that limits PCs out of GM fiat.
>>46093522
>Teleports behind you, unsheathes his Masamune made of blood katana and cuts the air creating a rift in the reality in which you're sucked
Sounds like a cool BBEG, righ? gonna try this in the next game I run. No saves of course.
>>46093604
>Speaking of homebrew, what kind of abilities should a class themed around Yog-Sothot have?
Depends on what the class actually does. If you look at the existing classes, a number of class features could be Sotthoth-related if you turn your head sideways and squint really hard. Things that modify movement rates (barbarian, monk), that allow for teleportation (shadow monk), that allow for additional actions (cunning action, action surge) all have a potential theme of breaking timespace in strange ways. Then there are spells like misty step, dimension door, teleport, time stop, gate, anything that summons an object or creature from elsewhere or abjures an object or creature to elsewhere. All of these have a faint smell of yog-sotthery.
I'd lean towards introducing a tranche of custom invocations to the Warlock class.
>>46093662
Even if they aren't humanoids, they have to follow some rules at least to be fair to players, a golem isn't humanoid, but one can expect he only has one action per turn, if the fucker has 100 actions, all of which can be multiattacks, expect players flipping the table, specially if you don't rise it's CR/XPs and leave it as it's in the MM.
>>46093756
if you follow rules you already lost agaisnt your players
>>46093407
Hey man, If you dont instinctively investigate that, you're a fool. I almost cut the dm off when he mentioned it
>>46093806
>agaisnt your players
And it's over.
>>46093756
>>46093806
Two highly shitty attitudes about the DM/player relationship detected.
>>46093662
The split isn't humanoid/nonhumanoid, it's NPC/PC. NPCs follow CR rules, PC follow class rules. Everything follows action economy rules.
One of my friends showed me the 5e playtest packet and the fighter in that was baller. Why the fuck did they make the fighter retarded in the player's handbook? Fucking hell, it's like Wizards has a contractual clause where their designers must ruin the fighter and the monk and make them garbage, and give spellcasters everything on a silver platter.
>>46092940
>no one uses a longsword two-handed either, right? They use a greatsword, or a shield.
Gishes (spellswords) without the War Caster feat.
>>46093756
Not necessarily. An octopus-like monster might be able to make more attacks per turn than even a high-level fighter, and Legendary monsters have Legendary actions so they get more than one action per round. Honestly, you can't expect monsters to follow the same kind of restrictions as humanoid characters.
>>46093852
Except Legendary monsters which ignore action economy.
>>46093826
Doesn't change the fact that if nobody checks it out the adventure is literally impossible.The passage to the basement does not exist until the note is read or the dollhouse is examined in detail, so it's a giant dead end with two low-difficulty encounters and mostly just empty rooms with creepy wallpaper. That's bad game design.
>>46093522
>>Rules are for the players
I disagree with that so much
As a player, I want to cast a fireball spell, not cast two d sixes plus two.
>>46093377
Buy some game science dice and shut the fuck up.
>>46093864
Which playtest packet? Anon, there were like 10 individual packets released over two years.
Here is the Barbarian, including SCAG. I had to sacrifice the level table, so both versions are included in the zip.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/5m5afrklabpz5aj/tgCharacterSheet.zip
>>46093903
>The passage to the basement does not exist
Well, I didn't know that.
>>46093894
>not using a greatsword and a shield and a heavy crossbow at the same time
>>46093926
These are looking fantastic, good work!
>>46093749
>I'd lean towards introducing a tranche of custom invocations to the Warlock class.
Yeah, that's probably the best choise. A specific Warlock pact with some thematically appropriate abilities and invocations. Could probably do somethign similar to the other Outer Gods as well. I know there is already the Great Old Ones pact, but that's pretty much a "Generic Lovecraftian-ish Beings pact", and having pacts that represent specific deity in a setting where eldritch deities would be the main patrons of Warlock pacts seems like a good idea.
I already have a Shub-Niggurath themed class, but that's a bit different since the theme I went with (corrupting/mutating nature, with specialisations built around mutating yourself, mutating your enemies and mutating minions) could not have been represented with existing classes, while Yog-Sothot-themed class would pretty much be a Wizard/Warlock with focus on space/time fuckery.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17AKvlmI-4urcO2YMt6HMJmCLUoayZuo1gT0wQfBXlmQ/edit
Great "balance", Mearls.
>>46093926
Nice, let me know when you get to sorcerer.
Although... am I really the only one who thinks the skill name should come AFTER the tickbox?
So home-brew stuff coming in (just slight changes to some game mechanics that might or might not be broken):
Bards gain a fighting style at lvl 9.
Either Dueling or Archery.
At lvl 6 Circle of Land druids gain extra 10 ft movement speed on land and in water along with climbing costing no extra movement speed.
Eldritch knight and Arcane trickster get the same spell-level/slot table as Paladins and Rangers with an addition of 4 cantrips.
They still have the same limitations to magic schools.
They can pick their casting stat from Int, Wis and Cha and can cast spells from either Wizard, Cleric or Sorcerer spell lists depending on the casting stat they picked.
Patient defense is changed to free dodge action or spending 1 ki to get Prof. bonus as AC reaction until the end of that turn.
Ki-empowered strikes in addition to what it already does lets you add your Wis mod to damage rolls on your attack actions with monk weapons or unarmed strikes.
Purity of body in addition to what it already does adds 1 Hp for every monk level your character has.
Paladin and Ranger can learn 4 Cleric and Druid cantrips respectively when they gain spellcasting.
Beastmaster can issue commands as bonus actions.
Beasts follow the order unless told otherwise.
The Beasts Hp is multiplied by a Quarter of your Ranger level rounded down.
Blade pact weapon can be summoned with bonus action instead of action like the EK bound weapon.
Whenever you cast a spell with your action you may make a weapon attack with you pact weapon.
You can have a bow as pact weapon and it will also summon a quiver with 12 arrows that deal force damage and disappear after hitting or missing. You may summon 12 other arrows as a bonus action.
Life-drinker is now a lvl 7 invocation.
>>46093991
>Blade pact weapon can be summoned with bonus action instead of action like the EK bound weapon.
There's no need for this. Once a blade warlock summons their pact weapon, it doesn't disappear unless they're separated from it, so they shouldn't need to spend any sort of action to summon it in combat at all; they should already have it summoned.
>>46093903
>An octopus-like monster might be able to make more attacks per turn
and that's multiattack, not having several actions per turn all of which can be multiattack. A monster can't manipulate 20 objects, neither make 20 dashes, etc there're rules in the DMG and the MM even monsters and NPCs have to follow.
>>46094042
It makes for more cooler situations, like doing it at the begining of combat and not esentially lose their turn due that, if they have their pact weapon always with them why the fuck give them the option of summon it? Rule of cool, if EKs can I dunno why Bladelocks can't, it's not like giving them that is going to make them better.
>>46091708
>TWF
>as a bladesinger
you cant use it with the cantrips.
You also don't have an open hand for your spellcasting focus.
>>46093976
jesus the autism required for this
>>46093976
looks balanced to me. wizards are weaker in the early game (level 1 and 2) but to make up for it, they are stronger in the late game (level 3-20).
>>46094114
>unlabelled axes
>>46094136
it should be labelled but it's obvious in the context of the post what it means
>>46094042
First of it lets them not waste a turn when they haven't summoned their pact weapon already.
Second, it's just one part of the feature.
Notice the
>whenever you cast a spell as part of your action you may use your bonus action to make a weapon attack with your pact weapon
That alone let's them be decent by letting them EB and strike with a sword/arrow
>>46093930
The house only creates the passage after the players find one of the two 'clues' to its existence. Until then they can't go to the basement by any means. It's terrible design.
>>46094136
It's showing how many cocks are sucked per level. Wizards suck waaaay more cock.
>>46094114
This is some serious bait
>>46094136
Exactly. A thousand what? How dicks the author sucks? Armadillo dicks maybe?
>>46094105
Not really, it's not quite scientist level rigour
>>46094114
>Ah yeah, it's totally sick that if I play a fighter, I get to sit around and do jack shit while the wizard does everything his heart desires at higher levels because the wizard was below me for 3 levels.
This is how actual cucks think
>>46091708
Go EK with Dueling fighting style first and then talk.
Best go EK 8/Sword singer 12
>>46094213
>>46094190
this is a cooperative game who cares if your class is worse than the rest, what matters is what the grop can accomplish
>>46094213
>caring about one guys entirely subjective point system
wew
>>46094114
>>46094136
>>46094157
>>46094160
>>46094187
>>46094190
>>46094193
>>46094213
it's based on having 16 rounds of combat per day, and the skill points are compared relative to one another and not context. If you use rules for carrying, have need for athletics skills that actually punish you for failing (grappling), and actually do 8 encounters, and all the other mechanics that most gms and players have trouble implementing in a real game, fighter puts in a lot more work than the graph would suggest
When people talk about these 8/12, 7/13, 10/10 multiclass builds, what the fuck level do they actually start multing? Because no one actually plays past 15
>>46094347
>it's based on having 16 rounds of combat per day, and the skill points are compared relative to one another and not context.
YOUR AXES
DO NOT HAVE LABELS
>>46094324
the point system is a really good way of showing the relative value of wizard's balance of power and versatility over a fighter's
>>46093991
Beast master is still shit. The main issue with beast master isn't even the damage, it's the fact that when your beast with no hp gets killed, with no death saving throws, you have no archetype until you find a new animal and spend 8 hours bonding with it
>>46094304
Levels care, why do I get the same experience as the other guy when things are way harder for me than for him? Not saying that doc is right, but come on, balance is not a bad thing.
>>46094114
>>46094160
>obvious in context
no it's not, you shit.
in context doesn't mean havin to read through literally 19 pages of shit to understand one graph. Label your axes
>>46094347
>with 16 rounds to do combat a day
what the fuck kind of shitty game are you basing this on
No group does that shit.
>>46094377
yeah except his system is dependent on your games being exactly like his
>>46093991
>Valor only
>Yes
>No
>Patient Defense should be changed but not sure if this is right
>No
>Yes
>Would make it 2 at most
>Yes, Yes, No (if anything add level)
>Yes, No, Why, Yes
>>46094364
the y axis is "points" which even if it were labeled means nothing if you don't read the Google doc
>>46094400
I didn't make the document so I have no idea where 16 rounds comes from
>>46094422
exactly. range and magic and terrain mess up fighters a lot and aren't hard to implement. there are mechanics that fuck with casters that aren't as obvious so most people ignore them
>>46094114
Characters are meant to reach level 3 by the end of the second session, at the outset. Death House, an official WotC module, levels them to 3 by the end of the first session. So, you are essentially saying:
>Looks balanced to me. Wizards are 10% weaker for the first session of the campaign, and between 20% and 120% stronger for the rest of the campaign.
>>46094304
Because what you can accomplish is largely determined by your class. If your Fighter only contributes half as much as what a Wizard could be doing, you're not contributing as much as you could be.
>>46094468
How are they stronger?
Mages will get skewered by fighters of equal level if they're within hitting range, and that's without bothering to take combat feats.
>>46094451
>the y axis is "points" which even if it were labeled means nothing if you don't read the Google doc
YEAH
AND IF IT'S NOT LABELED THEN IT STILL DOESN'T MEAN SHIT WHETHER YOU READ SHIT OR NOT
>>46094468
>arbitrary numbers and percentages as evidence
>>46094400
>in context doesn't mean havin to read through literally 19 pages of shit to understand one graph.
yes, that's context. the graph would still be meaningless without reading those 19 pages even if it was labelled, because his "point system" measurement is explained in those pages. saying the wizard has Y "points" only means something if you read the article first, and if you read the article you would understand the chart.
it should be labelled as a formality, but you're just whining for the sake of whining at this point.
>Wizards get magic? It's just like 3.5, dropped.
/tg/ I need your help!
My party is going up against a new breed of warlock I made up called "Pact of the planes" and basically they get magic based on the planes.
So I got them some spells based on different planar effects in the DMG but I don't have too many.
What kind of spells would you make based on the planes? I already have a few but anything you guys make is probably better than my shitty excuse for magic.
>>46094508
it has a table with the numbers that accompanies the graph. it has everything to do with reading the document. if you can't imagine how the word "points" on the y axis and "levels" on the x axis would change nothing for someone who already saw the numbers referenced in a data table then you are a raging autist
>>46091655
Abjuration wizards are the absolute best. With preparation time you are an unstoppable godking who will never have be mind-controlled, stolen from, paralyzed, or anything of the sorts.
>>46094518
>>46094553
>saying the wizard has Y "points" only means something if you read the article first
It's still information you retard. That tells you it's abstract points. If that's not stated then it might just as well be fuckin' damage per day, gold spent, dicks sucked per level, WHATEVER THE FUCK.
You should leave math and science to the people with university education.
>>46094540
Level/CR?
Standard planes?
Something specific?
Exotic planes?
>>46094553
Graphs are serious business, and axes must be labelled.
>>46094579
[autism intensifies]
>>46092927
Out of the Abyss is just a better adventure overall. Tons of quirky and interesting characters to die hideously
>>46094496
I recommend you read the document. There's no answer I can give you here that's as comprehensive as what the author gives.
>>46094513
It's not arbitrary, and if you think so you clearly have not read the document. He establishes a value for an ASI to form a baseline and works from there.
>>46094579
I can't tell if you're autistic or just being incredibly disingenuous. Or trolling, I suppose. Regardless, your whining won't discount the validity of the numbers.
>>46093991
>free dodge action
*sigh*
>>46094540
Summoning mephits is a common way of sending messages in Planescape. http://mimir.net/mephits/index.html
You could also temporarily inflict the negative effects of being on other planes, like the despair of the Shadowfell or the bliss of Elysium, as an alternative to spells like Hold Person and Confusion.
But who the hell is this pact with, and what must the warlock do to keep their side of it?
>>46094540
There are a LOT of planes that are based on fucking everything, which ones.
Saying they get magic based on planes would mean law spells, chaos spells, elemental spells, necrotic spells, horror spells, etc etc, which is basically saying they get magic.
>>46094597
>>46094645
>Regardless, your whining won't discount the validity of the numbers.
I wasn't discounting your numbers, I was discounting your ability to analyse and present data. And I guess we're both autistic, me for wanting graphs to be labelled properly, and you for getting into a long argument about whether labels will help in a specific case instead of just going "yeah alright, it'll only take me 10 seconds."
>>46094069
It's so you can't just change weapons mid-combat for free.
Also: bow as pact weapon is a waste.
>>46094672
Mechanically, they could mostly be focused on crowd control, overwhelming people's minds with happiness, despair, or madness, or just banishing them to another plane for a time. Their version of Imprisonment could send victims to Carceri, which is a pain in the ass to get out of.
>>46094692
no one who read the document had a problem analysing the data, because it corresponded with a table containing the exact same numbers.
>>46094728
That's a fairly good idea, although I think you'd just end up reskinning a lot of skills from the enchantment and abjuration schools.
>>46094747
It appears you don't understand the purpose of graphs.
If you think wizards are OP then just DM a game in Dark Sun
Problem solved
Or impose critical fumble rules for spells, magic can be a bitch
Fumbled a fireball? It blows up on your face
Fumbled a planar prison? You'd best have another spell slot of the same level to get out or you won't be back until tomorrow
Etc
>>46094692
You're misrepresenting my statement, sir. You complained about the lack of labels for the axis and how "it might just as well be fucking' damage per day, gold spent, dicks sucked per level, WHATEVER THE FUCK.". My response was to express incredulity at how petty your complaint is, and speculating that only someone autistic or trolling would complain about the lack of labels, given how clear those axis are in context with the rest of the document.
Good day, sir.
>>46094393
Good point.
>>46094450
Fighting style at lvl 9 is a reasonable limitation for both. Or should i add something else to Lore bard at lvl 9 like a ritual book and let them learn rituals from all spell lists?
EK and AT being able to choose a casting stat would be good. Especially for MC-ing characters for classes that aren't exactly compatible.
Patient defense into free Dodge and letting you spend 1 ki to get your Prof bonus to AC is okay cost/balance wise.
Ki empowered strikes barely does anything, tho the Wis mod to attack action is bad.
Maybe once per turn you deal extra Wis mod damage on an attack?
2 cantrips is reasonable.
Beast Hp is multiplied by 1/3d of ranger level.
Letting them pull of a Spell and a Weapon attack is to let them have synergy so they don't just sit back and blast in the back lines barely swinging their weapon.
That's 1 spell attack and 1 weapon attack.
Ek can already do it.
The bow stuff is just to add some ''arcane archer'' stuff but i guess i overdid it when making the arrows deal force damage.
>>46094794
Being autistic is better than being a retard
>>46094791
Why not make them roll a spellcasting check when they cast a spell and if they fail they lose it? DC based on spell level.
When making a wizard that doesn't start at level 1, how many spells would be acceptable to start with? The PHB says you can add 6 spells to the spellbound at level 1, so say you start at level 5, would it be within reason to start with something like 10 or so spells?
>>46094652
Rogues already get that.
Don't know why a martial based on Dex shouldn't be able to.
>>46094747
[AUTISM INTENSIFIES]
>>46094820
>reaction
>free
>>46094815
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spell book.
>>46094841
>Spending ki on a reaction to take Dodge
>Not waving the cost and letting it do something else for spending an actual resource.
>>46094806
and now that you know it is points and levels you still can't contribute to the conversation, so you opinion is as good as a retard's and you're autistic
>>46093648
>>46093698
>Breaking rules is ALWAYS bad because of the book and the XP budget and my austism REEEEEEEEEEEE
>If you can break the rules you MUST make a loli demigod, that what I would do
>Found the guys who never DMed
XP budgets don't mean shit if you're playing with people that ACTUALLY KNOW HOW TO PLAY, my lvl 6 party steamrolled a CR 12 encounter (way beyond deadly) that I thrown in using just "book rules" so that 1-2 of them could fall (big badgirlwould retreat after)
Here let me tell you how I break rules for EVERYBODY's fun
>Party have traveled forward in time from entering and leaving Feywild
>War lost, city razed, warring factions are now "old enemies (basically ISIS) vs undead"
>Their old captain (which they liked) was killed by the executioner (an abominable Yeti reskinned as the Butcher in Diablo)
>Old captain is raised as a Revenant, hellbent on killing the executioner
>Party assists him in killing the executioner
>Revenant's grudge gone, he should've disintegrated/whatever
>INSTEAD, Old cap's spirit rises from the ashes and tells them the location of his secret stash of McAwesome (would have the armor they bought but didn't get, some weapons/armor for the town's resistance, and some maps)
But alas they didn't save him... thing are going to get not-easier.
>>46094796
I'd be more inclined to leaving lore bard as is, considering how strong extra magical secrets are, but if not then I guess you could give them something related to performance. Not a ritual book because that is stepping on timelock's toes
EK and AT are explicitly non-magical people who learn how to cast spells through study, like wizards. If they want cha or wis they can just multiclass or pick another class
I'd be inclined toward one or the other, but both seems awkward
More like whenever you spend ki points to make an attack IMO
Multiplicative bonuses mess with bounded accuracy
EK is also a 1/3 caster, you can't have the lock be as good as swording as an EK just like you can't have an EK be as good as magicking as a bladelock. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Doing both would make bladelock the strictly better option
Why would you use a bow when you have EB, unless you used that "attack+spell" feature, which, again, does not work (for me, as my group's foreverDM)
Just some observations
>>46095020
>lvl 6 party steamrolled a CR 12
Doubt it
Lucky rolls are always present, but your group had to suck Jesus' cock to get that lucky
>>46094796
>barely does anything
Except, you know, you can punch golems, earth elementals, and anything else resistant to non-magical bludgeoning to death.
I'm suspecting more and more that y'all anons are trying to fix classes you've never played.
>>46095096
it could have just been a group of ogres or knights or veterans
How would you stat a goze, /5eg/?
I'm wondering if I should give them blindsense 10 feet but otherwise had the blinded condition.
>>46094157
Saving this. What a legend.
>>46095020
>Goliath DMPC with greatsword, tower shield AND heavy crossbow at the same time
>Not winged loli demigod tier
Gonna fluff my warlock's eldritch blast as a magical gun, like pic related (no whip though because tomelock)
>>46093903
>Except Legendary monsters which ignore action economy.
Legendary monsters just have a special ability that lets them take more action. They don't ignore the established action economy rules; they add to it. The same way every other monster ability adds to the core part of the system.
>>46095028
Lore bard getting the ritual caster feat for free would be a good alternative.
Agree on AT and EK keeping to what they are.
Only the +Prof bonus to AC for 1 ki should do.
Good idea. Whenever using a flurry or using a monk feature that uses ki in an attack action you deal an extra Wis mod damage.
EK also has potential 3 extra attacks so it won't waste its time on cantrips but rather use spells (shield) to tank while dealing damage.
Let me retort to your last observation.
Why use a pact weapon at all when you can just cast EB?
>>46095112
By that time you already have a magic quarter staff , spear or shortsword so the feature becomes practically meaningless.
Making redundant features seems to be something that the game devs love (example Stoneskin at lvl 18 on Wot4E monks when they get Empty body at lvl 17)
>>46095166
Oh fuck I just remembered again
Fuck.
>>46094114
Correctly built EK/paladin multiclass characters and fighter/barbarians can do damage pretty consistent with wizards for most of their levels until late game, when wizards inevitably outclass them.
>>46093989
>>46093926
Skillname after tick box is better IMO.
And regardless of where the sheet designer puts the tick box, both sheet elements with tick boxes should use the same design paradigm; currently they clash.
That said, that sheet is fucking sexy as hell goddamn.
>>46092899
warlocks with infernal pacts can make things a bit complicated.
>>46095243
the main sources of unbalance are spells like meteor swarm being a MILE range and forsight being an entire 20 levels of asi worth of advantage lasting 8 hours without concentration. wotc really could have toned them down a lot.
>>46095243
That table isn't damage by level, it's total point value which includes non-combat benefits. Check out the full document for more information.
If you can find a multiclass build that actually keeps up with casters at mid levels, send it to the author and they'll probably address it in a future version.
Test
>>46095322
really only cleric or druid can since spells get counted three times
>>46095212
Pretty much agreed on all accounts there except the bladelock
It has been a hot debate issue since the beginning but I really believe it's perfectly fine as is, except maybe the full action to summon weapon, which I tend to just assume the warlock starts combat with the weapon drawn.
If you must make them better I would look at the available invocations, maybe replace the mage armor one with armor of agathys or allow the EB ones to affect the blade (forceful blade, that would be kickass) but being able to EB+two attacks with thirsting blade? No way man, that's way too much (for me)
In my opinion the whole point of bladelock is to get in on the facepunching while also being able to fall back on EB if things get hairy, and no other class offers flexibility of that magnitude from early on
>>46095410
>really only cleric or druid can since spells get counted three times
Not sure what you mean by that.
>>46095410
me neither
>>46095502
How about the pact weapon dealing 1d10 force damage instead normal damage (like EB) and working with the repelling blast invocation?
>>46095212
>By that time you already have a magic quarter staff , spear or shortsword
Where's that class Feature?
Oh, you mean the compulsory magic weapon your DM has to give you?
>>46094165
If you made that second change, blade pact warlocks would quickly outclass all other warlocks. Eldritch blast already has ridiculous damage potential with Hex.
>>46095561
Pact weapon is a magical weapon and therefore deals magical damage. Enemies with resistance to nonmagical weapons do not have resistance to warlocks' pact weapon.
Because of this, if you multiclass warlock/barbarian, your extra rage damage is also magical, as it does damage of the same type as the weapon you're wielding.
>>46095508
in the point scale, knowing spells gives points, preparing spells give points, spell slots give points. no class is going to get nearly as many points unless they have full caster levels
>>46095561
Jesus fucking Christ, no.
>>46095212
>example Stoneskin at lvl 18 on Wot4E monks when they get Empty body at lvl 17
???
These are entirely different things. Furthermore, Empty Body is 17 and Stoneskin is 11th level, and EB costs 4 Ki Points vs Stoneskins 5. You also don't need to get Stoneskin.
>>46095646
Yes, because of Rituals. Remember that only half of the spell slots are used to calculate damage and non-damage scores, so they're not doubled that way.
>>46095636
>Pact weapon is a magical weapon and therefore deals magical damage.
This is actually the only thing that bugs me about the game.
There's, all in all, only three classes that don't have a way to get over the limit with their own talents; non AT rogues, non EK fighters, and barbs. I kinda wish they got some sort of breech immunity deal at high enough level (which I might actually consider implementing)
>>46093522
sounds like you're a shit DM desu
>>46095805
I still cant see how spells prepared and spell slots are not redundant. You can only prepare a spell if you have the slot and vice versa. Even without counting one or the other Wizard is still ahead by a lot, which models what we already know.
>>46095561
Then it would be indistinguishable from EB...
You also have to consider that the blade gets +str/dex AND +cha with Lifedrinker, that is 8-10 damage guaranteed per attack, that means 16/20+2d10 per turn at level 12, vs a blastlock doing 3d10+15/12 at most, not a big difference, and if there is it favors blade IMO.
>>46095805
>Rituals
They cap at level 3 and aren't actually that good, especially compared to 4e rituals.
If I'm concentrating on a spell and take three hits from one enemy, each doing 8 points of damage,
Do I roll three DC10 concentration checks, or one DC12 concentration check?
>>46095933
By the way, a polearm master bladelock at lv 12 does 2d8+1d4+(24~30) plus AOOs
>>46095960
Three DC 10 Constitution saving throws.
If ever there were an example of why /5eg/ takes such a dim, stereotyped view of homebrewing, this thread would be it.
>>46095916
>>46095946
Check the doc for more info. I'm not the author, not my job to defend his work. If there's redundancy then that shit should be fixed on his part.
>>46092899
please respond
Hi /5eg/. So I rolled a Paladin, it turned out quite good, but I'm kinda not sure how to progress from 1st level on. Looking for advice. I'd like to focus on the offensive side.
The stats are STR 19 DEX 14 CON 17 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 18, variant human, bonuses go to STR and CHA, bonus feat is Great Weapon Master.
>>46095178
>I get your point though, what he did was way out of whack
>>46092899
That they're from the Sword Coast but have been captured by drow and taken deep below the surface. The actual details of their backstory in relation to the Realms don't really matter that much, you can fit in the details as you and they want.
>>46095863
Sounds like you're afraid of fun, senpai
>>46095020
All I'm saying is that rulebreaking can be fun or cheese, depending on how you do it.
It's like like nuclear power
>>46096121
get a hammer and smash things with it, what more advice do you need?
>>46096179
I already do that. I'd like to be better at it and not make any choices that I'd regret.
>>46096158
I'm afraid to tell them they're starting as captives, and that they're in the underdark. I want to discourage metagaming.
>>46096213
It's 5e, you are mostly saved from making terrible decisions within a class.
>>46096213
You're a paladin, bro. Just smite shite.
Read the oaths and take whatever one you like the most. Pallys are hard to fuck up.
>>46096231
If you're not all on the same page about the tone of the game, your campaign is going to go up in flames quickly. They might be expecting a heroic quest or standard murderhobo stuff, not surviving in dark caves for months on end.
>>46095815
It's expected that your DM will eventually give you magic items. If they don't, either they're being a dick, or you're playing Dark Sun.Did I mention I wish they would publish Dark Sun for 5e?
>>46092899
People without darkvision will suffer
Wizards will suffer
Human Wizards will be in hell
>>46096259
Actually one of the biggest flaws of Paladins is that, when they run out of spell slots, they become shitty Fighters. They don't even have cantrips. No other class with spells has this problem.
Paladins become fucking amazing when you multiclass them, though.
>>46093989
>>46095264
The order of the Saving Throws and Skills was decided by survey. I will consider mimicking the order so that the features matches the skills.
>>46096275
>>46096304
hmm, yes I guess that's true, but isn't that part of the fun?
>>46096084
Personally I wouldn't count prepared and slots separately. I was just saying it wouldn't be possible to make a character close to a wizard's point value unless they were full caster because the point system he created does count them both.
>>46096304
Variant humans are o̶n̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ possibly the best race option in the game. If you're playing a class that gets some sort of darkvision for free, like warlocks or shadow sorcerers, there is absolutely no reason to not play a variant human.
Also, many classes can provide their own light sources, like clerics and paladins.
So I want to go full John Woo on niggers, by using Crossbow Expert to dual wield hand crossbows, what would be a good class for it?
I'm thinking Rogue due to sneak attack but not having the bonus action for rogue abillities seems crippling
>>46096322
>implying Paladins need cantrips when they also have smite and lay on hands
>>46096398
Try the ranger variant
>>46096398
you can't do that though, god damn. You need a free hand to reload.
>>46096408
Smite costs spell slots, silly anon
>>46096322
>Paladins become fucking amazing when you multiclass them, though.
Examples?
I'm actually considering a Ancients/battlemaster mix, but we have also have an Oath Pally in the party that I'd like to recommend things to.
>>46096414
Variant human for the Crossbow Expert feat at character creation
>>46096435
Paladin/Warlock is popular, for Pact magic spell slots that recharge on short rest + EB for ranged blasting and possible ritual casting.
>>46092899
>>46092899
That drow will literally rape them
They are rape elves
That part of their backstory should be how they were raped by drow
Some might be pregnant
Even the guys
Actually especially the guys
Scratch that, only the guys
Drow rape is that potent
And they got it
Raped by drow I mean
They got raped by drow
>>46096414
>not juggling your Hand Crossbows and reloading them
>>46096322
Rangers don't have cantrips
>Using a cantrip when you have two attacks which can also deal an extra 1d8 later
Why?
>>46096435
>>46096453
Paladin/Eldritch Knight can also put out some amazing damage
>>46096322
This isn't a problem. Cantrips exist to ensure you can spend your actions on something that has a significant impact in combat. Basic attacks with Extra Attack 1, and later on Improved Divine Smite which always applies, is more than plenty to fill that role.
There is nothing missing from their kit.
>>46096478
>Rangers don't have cantrips
Oh, you're right. I suppose rangers fall in the same vein as paladins, primarily martial classes with a touch of magic to improve their martial ability.
>>46096507
Oh? what do you need for that?
like, minimum of levels in Paladin/EK
>>46096453
Yeah, a dip in warlock is just that fucking good for anybody though, isn't it?
>>46093005
Lower str/int/cha by 1 for con 12, take commander's strike over lunge IF you have a rogue teammate, he will love it when you give him that second sneak attack in a round.
Otherwise looks like a fun build.
>>46091240
So why Discord? Is there like an IRC or Skype group that I could join instead? I really wanna try 5e (and get into D&D in general) but the game finder thread has been a bust so far.
>>46096543
At least 3 levels of Paladin, the rest whatever you want. The main reason for EK is just that it's a Fighter archetype that also grants spell slots. Fighter compliments any melee-focused build excellently, (action surge is very good, and you get a second Fighting Style on top of that) but Paladin needs a source of spell slots to stay effective as well.
>>46096609
To be clear, when I said "the rest whatever you want," I meant from Paladin and EK. You don't want to take many levels in other classes with this build unless you have a specific reason. Warlock is a good choice too, though, but you need to make sure you get your Ability Score improvements.
>>46096507
How? EK barely has spells and decent level spells.
Why are the physical books such shit quality? My 4e books are fine but my 5e books are fucking falling apart. ree.
Paladin/Favoured soul it's better though.
>>46096752
contact Wizards, they replace them for free
What would your character do though? What fits best with his concept?
>>46096766
Not only is it better but it makes way more sense than something like Warlock. A paladin of devotion or vengeance selling its soul to a demon or a great old one is so dumb it makes my teeth hurt.
Ancients and archfey make sense as a multiclass though, and could be a pretty neat character concept.
>>46096607
It's free, easy to use, and easy to set up? Also more secure and pro-privacy than IRC and Skype.
>>46096860
>selling its soul
Doesn't have to be willingly, could have been your grampa or your father. But maybe I'm mixing the lore from 3.5/4
>>46096741
It's basically just gaining extra attacks for smites for higher nova. At level 20 with action surge you can smite 6 times in one turn for 35d6+30, while rerolling all your 1's and 2'sI'd still prefer to just play a normal paladin
>>46096766
>Twinning GFB+Smites
Lel
>>46096908
Rerolling 1s and 2s are a trap card. It's a boost of .5 to 1 damage on each attack, on average.
>>46096941
It was a great feature before the nerf. Now it's pure shit, better go +1 AC.
I meant per die. That's still not a lot.
>>46096959
wait, nerf?
what exactly got nerfed.
>>46096989
I suspect they live in a magical faerie realm where people actually read and adopt the errata.
>>46096883
>pro privacy
>Skype
But...Skype groups can only be entered if someone invites you. You can't really get more private than that. In fact, with Discord it's even less private, because you post a link and anyone can join.
In fact, Skype is easy to set up too. Install it, log in, invite X number of people to chat, done. Granted I haven't used Discord, but still, that's pretty fuckin' simple.
I just feel like someone's shilling Discord here, as I have never heard of it anywhere beyond /tg/ period.
>>46096897
Well I looked it up, and in 5e it pretty explicitly says that you have "struck a bargain" with your patron.
So yeah, still dumb for most paladins.
"I will deliver justice and light to the world! Oh, and carry out the wishes of the fiend I made a deal with for more power"
>>46091240
Fuck yeah! Kelek!
>>46097037
It's an interesting moral dilemma to have to add character but nobody will actually do it like that, so.
>>46097027
There's two different players in two games I'm involved in who talk about how much better Discord is every game we're in. I'd never heard about it before they starting talking about it.
>>46097037
I could see a Vengeance Paladin making a pact with a Fiend. Especially if he feels the Fiend isn't a direct and/or constant threat compared to what he's currently up against.
>Faced with a choice of fighting my sworn foes or combating a Iesser evil, I choose the greater evil.
