For all things Christian
Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants alike are welcome to discuss theology. Try to be polite.
Atheists also welcome, but try to be constructive.
Pastebin for believers and curious folk.
http://pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW
Pastebin for Orthodox
http://pastebin.com/bN1ujq2x
Today's readings (Catholic):
Reading: 1 Kings 17:1-6
Psalm: 121:1-8
Gospel: Matt 5:1-12
Good Scenes to watch
>Jesus Anime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d-uB0vaoQo
>Jesus of Nazareth Sermon on the Mount:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCbJ4vnMNg
>Jesus chases Jews out of the Temple
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEtBs6j7QgU
>Jesus gives sight to the Blind....and takes sight from those who can see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY7vamVg99E
>Roman Centurion has more faith than anyone in Israel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNLSBjYDPko
>Ben Hur scenes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVlf7OiiTJE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbt2UUthWg0
>Why Atheists shouldn't discourage Christianity even if they don't believe in it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqQdc0mX1_c
>Thread Theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5YEKO04RDI
First for Jesus
St Augustine's City of God demonstrates how Christians were really terribly unpatriotic at the end of the Roman Empire in the West
They couldn't give a hoot about the world they lived in, and were madly obsessed with the afterlife and heaven.
>>76350524
Why do people insist on lumping all Protestants together?
>>76350871
Good for them
>>76351008
Easier to attack that way
Do you believe in or deny the existence of Evolution?
>>76351008
Its a matter of ecclesiology. They think each Protestant denomination considers itself the only one true church.
>>76350524
sola fide and sola scriptura are positives.
Btw roman catholics and eo are terribly liberal in their own regard
EO is just falling in number. I guess kids these days dont want to LARP
>>76351207
What do you mean by 'evolution'?
>>76351207
Deny. Only Papist and liberals affirm it.
>>76351273
Its a bait and switch term really. I believe in microevolution in other words adaption but I deny abiogenesis and speciation.
>>76351008
Why do people insist on lumping all atheists together?
>>76351370
Atheism is pretty much the same. It leads to materialism, naturalism, nihilism, subjective truth, nihilistic morality and irrationalism.
>>76351366
>I believe in microevolution in other words adaption but I deny abiogenesis and speciation.
That doesn't make sense. You believe evolution occurs but don't believe evolution can change a species?
>>76351366
Agreed, I was gonna call him out on it, lel. I, like you, believe in microevolution, but macroevolution... no.
>>76351370
Because they all believe in the nonexistence of God and that's as far as the belief stretches, while Protestants believe in dozens of different things
>>76351555
Materialism, naturalism, nihilism, subjective truth, nihilistic morality and irrationalism are good things tho
What's a good part of the bible that would be great if adapted into a musical like Jesus Christ Superstar?
>>76350524
At first thought the one at the right was episcopals
>>76351687
But the nonexistence of God isn't the life for most atheists, other than dumb youtubers and their dumb teenage fans.
All religious Christians' lives revolve around God because they believe in him.
>>76351008
Catholics and Orthodox have different Churches inside them too for that matter
>>76351580
What are you even saying? Species can adapt and adopt new features but not become entirely different species.
>>76351687
The worst part about atheism is that they think they can take God out of the picture and still keep a cogent philosophical worldview. However as atheist philosophers have shown us you get what I mentioned above. No objective truth and moral nihilism.
I mean if atheists are right what's the point in hanging in this thread to tell us we are wrong? Snort some coke and die.
Where would be the most interesting states/countries to be a Catholic priest?
I'm joining the priesthood soon, and I'm weighing my options.
>>76351370
>>76351687
One bad apple ruins the batch
Especially on /pol/
>>76352066
Don't make that mistake man. Study up on the corruption of the Roman church.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bVEXZ38Vs8
If you can't refute this then don't become one.
>>76351276
I'm a papist that denies it.
I haven't been to my local parish for a long while but I'm getting back into attending mass because I want to rebuild my faith in God. I also want to join the church choir, but I don't want to make it awkward by joining if I'm not a regular attendee of the church. How long should I attend mass before volunteering to join the choir?
>>76352208
You're a dying a breed.
>>76352066
Catholicism is retarded
>>76352189
I was just watching this documentary earlier this morning. Based anon.
>>76352066
I'm just going to stay within ~100 miles of my family. I thought about going somewhere further for the priesthood, but the truth is that it can get lonely. If you have a family you're close to, it's best to just stay near them.
God bless you and good luck in your vocation.
>>76351967
>>What are you even saying? Species can adapt and adopt new features but not become entirely different species.
When a species adapts, its genetic code is changed and it passes those changes down to descendants. This can happen in mere hundreds of years. Look at lactose-tolerance.
Now imagine thousands of these localized changes being made over millions of years. Do you really expect them to be the same species?
>>76352189
>>76352392
>poisoning your mind with the deception of the devil
why not pray those 8 hours instead?
>>76352271
I don't see anything wrong with signing up right away. People love if you're active in the parish.
For example, I recently joined a new parish and the same weekend signed up for the Bible study. The people were welcoming and happy to have a new face. This would probably be the same for you, anon.
Best of luck. :)
>>76352189
>8 hours
I'm willing to hear your arguments, but holy shit that's TLDR
>only the priests are smart enough to interpret scripture
>We are not blessed the same way
>we are smart enough to defend them though even though we aren't smart enough to understand their interpretations
So basically, you have your oracles, literally speaking in tongues during the Latin parts.
If you can't even understand what they're saying without them explaining their words, how are you smart enough to defend them?
>>76352781
>>76352615
Why do protestants have such a "holier than thou" attitude?
I guarantee that in the next 30 minutes they will start calling us pagans.
>>76352989
Get your counter memes ready
Throughout all this though, most Romans continued to honor their traditional pantheon of gods and goddess. Sacrifices to Jupiter were still made. The Vestal Virgins still tended the sacred fire in Rome that, it was said, could not be allowed to go out.
This all changed with the coming of Theodosius the Great. In February of 380 AD, Theodosius declared Christianity, based on the Nicene Creed, as the only official religion of Rome. In 382 AD, the Alter of Victory was removed from the Curia forever and destroyed. The Ancient Olympic Games, a religious festival as much as an athletic competition, were last held in 393 AD and eventually banned. In 394 AD, Theodosius disbanded the Vestal Virgins and has the sacred flame extinguished. Temples were converted to churches or destroyed. Participating in any pagan religious right or ceremony was considered, essentially, treason and grounds for execution.
Theodosius the Great died in 395 AD. Upon his death, the Roman Empire was split into an eastern half and a western half, each governed by one of his sons. The empire would never be united again. In 410 AD, just thirty years after the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of Rome, the Visigoth under Alaric I sacked Rome. This was the first time a foreign army had sacked Rome in almost 800 years. Only sixty years later, as mentioned above, Romulus Augustulus was deposed and the Roman Empire was gone forever.
>>76352975
90% of Catholic parishes are vernacular (mass is said in the local language).
Latin parishes are rare to find.
>>76351916
Do they vary as much as Protestant churches though? I don't think so. Protestants range from wacky stuff that doesn't make any sense to simple fundamentalist Christians. Some extremely anti-homosexuality and some very open to and accepting of homosexuality, and so on
>>76351555
Stoic masterrace inbound.
You might be right about fedoras, but religion isn't great either. Being virtuous out of fear of god instead of for yourself isn't how one should live, and also leaves you vulnerable to dogma, no better than a libturd.
>>76352572
Yes I do
>>76352781
That's 1500 years of heresies to correct and he doesn't address ALL of them.
- Inclusion of the apocrypha
- Praying to the saints
- Mary's high status as co-redemptrix held by many highly esteemed people in the RCC such as Doctor Alfonso
- Celibacy as a requirement
- Papacy
- Purgatory
- "Sola Ecclesia"/Sacred Tradition is equivalent to scripture
- Papal infallibility
- Mary's bodily resurrection
- The mass
Different but shorter video made by the same guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJwa5FVo-fs
I mean you are dedicating your life to becoming a priest. You might as well watch an eight hour video.
>>76352615
Look we know you are a roleplaying LARPer and that you can't hold a serious discussion and that's why you resort to memes but if you can't refute it shut-up.
>>76353154
>>76353178
It's been a while since I've seen you in one of these threads, brother. Welcome back.
I remember last time you debated that atheist for a few hours, it was great.
>>76352989
it goes usually like this, in chronological order:
1) Luther meme picture
2) pope washing muslim feet
3) idolatry
4) mary was a sinner and died
5) catholic church killed 68 gorillion jew-ahem-protestants
go to 1) and repeat
>>76353255
No they don't. Those that belong to the Catholi Church have to be in full communion. The Orthodox Churches usually agree 95% with one another I think, so there's a bit less unity but they overall agree on the doctrine
>>76353260
What is virtuous living? What is good and bad? How do you objectively measure these without coming back to the fundamental issue faced by atheists.
>>76351907
I'm not saying they should be lumped together in how they behave or what they're like, I'm just saying they all believe the same thing when it comes to God, while Protestants have different beliefs about God and how they should worship him
>>76353380
>Look we know you are a roleplaying LARPer and that you can't hold a serious discussion and that's why you resort to memes but if you can't refute it shut-up.
so much projection
>>76352989
Insecurities.
The vast majority of protestant church's are shacks filled with rednecks. Their leaders take no vows, unlike priests. They don't have the sacraments and structure that we do. These make them feels insecure in their faith, so they lash out against us.
Pic related.
>>76353584
John 3:16
I will cease to reply to the bong so he can sleep. Peace.
>>76353138
God new Judas would. That doesn't mean Judas had to, since it's also possible God new Judas wouldn't, and in some world Judas didn't.
>>76353700
I'm familiar with it. What's your point?
>>76353470
> I remember last time you debated that atheist for a few hours, it was great.
I don't think that was me
I am on the pro-atheistic side
>>76353662
> unironically reaffirms what I was saying
>>76353686
I can't hold all these generalizations.
Also have you not seen the great amount of Anglican, Episcopal, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches and cathedrals?
>>76353260
This is a false quote of Aurelius; he was quite a devout "pagan". It's a very commonly attributed quote.
Are catholics required to believe that the Pope is chosen by God and his word is holy?
I'm seriously concerned that this pro-Islam, pro-Comminism, all religions are true, "Europe should be ashamed of its herratige" scum is actually converting people in Catholic majority nations like Australia and Ireland to leftism and pseudo-atheism.
>>76353741
>/new/
Knew. Have mercy typos.
>>76353380
>>Yes I do
There are 1371253 animal species on earth right now. If you assumed none of those species evolved since the time of Noah, do you really believe he fit 2742506 (two million, seven hundred and fourty two thousand, five hundred and six) animals on a boat he built in seven days?
>>76353260
>posting fake quotes
>>76353811
A saving Faith is what saves
>>76353260
>>76353846
The origin of this misquotation likely derives from this phrase from Meditations
>Since it is possible that thou mayest depart from life this very moment, regulate every act and thought accordingly. But to go away from among men, if there are gods, is not a thing to be afraid of, for the gods will not involve thee in evil; but if indeed they do not exist, or if they have no concern about human affairs, what is it to me to live in a universe devoid of gods or devoid of Providence? But Gods there are, undoubtedly, and they regard human affairs; and have put it wholly in our power, that we should not fall into what is truly evil
>>76353741
Did you read up on the canon of the NT? Or do you still think Paul's writings are uninspired? Even though he claims they were.
>>76353819
The ones stolen from the Catholic church?
>>76353819
>> unironically reaffirms what I was saying
>still projecting and strawmanning
>>76351008
>>76351370
Because they are all heretics
>>76353943
I know that. There's still wide differences among Protestant churches
>>76353903
No. This has been addressed by creationists. He would have carried the ancestors of many animals. Also exclude all the sea animals too.
>>76353889
this should clear your doubts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium
It tells you when it is you are required to listen to the Pope. In all other instances you can pretty much ignore him completely
>>76353982
>muh straw man!!
Kek, nice straw man
After Constantine's deathbed conversion, many Roman aristocrats turned to lives of monasticism.
Instead of going into politics or the army, the best and the brightest of Rome rejected wordly life and became monks.
This created a major brain drain on Roman society.
>>76354069
Examples I don't include Jw or Mormons as Protestants
>>76353979
Not all of them. I do like high-church symbolism. But how is that relevant? Theology is more important and currently Rome is just a mill that pumps out heresies.
>>76353982
Thank you for confirming you are retarded. If someone could be so kind to teach me how to filter someone I'd be thankful.
>>76354108
Thanks mate
>>76353889
>Pope says gay marriage is from satan
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/pope-francis-same-sex-marriage-move-father-lies-total-rejection-gods-law
>Pope Francis speaks against Gay adoption
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/12/pope-francis-shocked-by-gay-adoption-urges-bishop-to-speak-against-it-boldly/
>Compares trans rights to nuclear arms race
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/pope-francis-compares-arguments-for-transgender-rights-to-nuclear-arms-race-10061223.html
>Pope Francis says that there's no salvation outside the Church
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2013/06/03/pope-francis-is-under-attack-for-saying-that-outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation-its-a-poke-in-the-eye-says-one-presbyterian-why-hes-wrong/
>He excommunicates an Australian priest supporting gay marriage and women clergy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/24/pope-francis-excommunicates-priest-greg-reynolds_n_3983059.html
>Pope Francis is against gender theory and for traditional gender roles
http://ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/pope-francis-gender-theory-problem-not-solution
>Pope is against abortion
http://www.lifenews.com/2015/09/23/pope-francis-on-abortions-innocent-victims-its-wrong-to-look-the-other-way-or-remain-silent/
>He Encourages the use of force against ISIS
http://www.businessinsider.com/pope-francis-endorses-use-of-force-against-isis-in-iraq-2014-8
>Pope Francis is against lukewarm "faith"
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-off-the-cuff-to-priests-religious-indifference-makes-god-vomit-69700/
>The Pope is misquoted often
http://www.christianpost.com/buzzvine/7-times-pope-francis-was-misquoted-132679/
>The Pope Rebukes Communist Cross
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/bolivia/11729834/Pope-rebukes-Bolivias-President-Evo-Morales-for-gift-of-crucifix-mounted-on-hammer-and-sickle.html
>>76354074
>He would have carried the ancestors of many animals
What does that mean? How do you explain the animals he saved becoming over a million distinct species that exist today without evolution?
>>76354164
Quite wrong. A lot of high ranking pagans transferred their position into a high ranking position in the Roman church becoming cardinals and bishops.
>>76353819
>great amount of Anglican, Episcopal, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches and cathedrals?
You mean previously Roman Catholic churches?
>>76354229
>all this heretic butthurt
>>76354286
Do you consider a bull-dog a different species from a German shepherd?
>>76353953
>Even though he claims they were
In what world does self-testimony count as making a proposition more likely true than not?
>>76354352
Not sure why you think what you wrote contradicts me
>>76354352
What do you guys think of Moral Orel, The Last Temptation of Christ, Binding of Isaac, Shin Megami Tensei and Jesus Christ Superstar?
>>76354356
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Paul%27s_Cathedral
>>76353889
>Pope is chosen by God
No he is not. Even Pope Benedict backed this up.
>>76354459
Obviously. No two bulldogs mating will provide a german shepherd offspring, and no two german shepherds will provide a bulldog offspring.
Are you seriously trying to argue against that?
>>76354487
what is that picture even trying to say, it looks like a middle schooler made it
>>76353899
>I don't know how you could instantiate any level of precision better than a question mark.
Through the application of predictive analysis. Situations and behaviors repeat, and people rarely change.
>Your argument says that I have somewhere between zero assurance and a complete unknown assurance that I will get the money.
>Yes. That's the case. There is no law of nature that gives you any assurance that the friend will in fact lend that money tomorrow.
>I would say you have no more reason to believe he will lend you the money tomorrow than that he won't.
You are proposing an absurdly skeptical epistemology. The sun will rise tomorrow is not a technical certainty. Will you conclude that there is no more reason to believe that it will rise than not? We have information on the system; it is absurdist to suggest we not consider that information in determining the probability of occurrences.
>I'm taking the problem of induction more seriously, I think, than you might want to.
No, you are taking the imprecision of induction and, instead of considering the value of the information we have, are throwing it all out the window. That isn't taking it more seriously, that is giving it far less consideration.
>>76354542
Sub-par, even this small church looks much better.
>>76354779
not an argument
>>76354479
The early church affirmed the inspiration of his text. Also why would a guy who hates Christ later go onto devote his life to him and die because of persecution lie?
>>76354741
Hahaha I am arguing with a leftist redditor. This is the second time you're trying to put words in my mouth
>>76354741
No two Jane and John will ever produce a Jane or a John either. Guess humans aren't humans.
>>76354524
Haven't seen, haven't seen, fun game, fun games, and I think I remember enjoying it as a child.
>>76350524
Anyone have the other version of this picture? With the norse pagan included
>>76354947
You're talking about sexes. I'm talking about species. Are you baiting or actually retarded?
>>76354929
Do you consider a bull-dog a different species from a German shepherd?
>>76354851
Why do I care what some other people did or didn't accept?
I don't think Paul hated Christ. I tend to believe he was actually a good guy with good intentions. But he was entirely fallible and he made decisions and spoke in ways that I think are far more self-inspired than God inspired.
>>76355114
Is any part of the Bible inspired and how do you know?
>>76355047
I wonder why Jane the bulldog and John the German shepherd can breed then?
>>76355193
All of the Gospels. I don't know. Just like you don't either - you take it on faith. Same as me senpai.
>>76355248
Are donkeys and horses the same species just because they can produce mules?
>>76355248
Jane had her tubes tied
>>76355313
You're awfully ignorant of NT canonics
>>76354351
This isn't /b/
>>76354542
>St. Paul's - A protestant cathedral in a protestant country. Second largest cathedral in England.
>Westminster Cathedral - a Roman Catholic cathedral in a protestant country. The largest cathedral in England.
You can't make this shit up.
>>76355397
Mules can't breed. Joe the German-bulldog can.
>>76355398
Rip Jane's breeding future.
>>76355423
You arbitrarily decide what is canon. I don't have to care about your opinion.
>>76353380
None of the Early Church fathers are Proturds. This pic destroys all who suscribe to the heresy of sola Scriptura
>>76353819
>Anglicans
They have wealth, yes but it's pretty easy to be dismissive of them considering the only reason their denomination exists, is because King Henry was pissed he couldn't get a divorce.
>Lutherans
Every Lutheran I've ever known has been white-trash. Also, they are the biggest hypocrites and cherry-pickers. Martin Luther emphasized sola scriptura, yet the first thing he did was remove books from the Bible.
>Episcopalians
This is just the American branch of Anglicanism. See above.
>Presbyterians
lol
>>76355535
The early church Fathers, who were direct or second generation understudies of the apostles had an idea of biblical canon
>>76355548
>logical fallacies "destroying" anyone
Protesrants explain
>>76354270
Doesn't this just show he's a flip flipper?
The 7 Misquoted lines piece couldn't refute that Francis' contempt for Catholic social conservstism was out of context or otherwise, merely that his actions "show the contrary". How do they show otherwise if he himself provides more and more weight to these arguments when his mail is leaked and otherwise.
A lot of these quotes are freudian slips of sorts, especially his joy that Europe will be repopulated with Muslims. He wont go back on it. He supports it through every appearance he's made
>>76355651
They had an idea of it. Whether they were right or not is another question. They put down what they put down.
>>76355443
>protestants will never worship Our Lord in a Church like this
>>76355656
Posting facts and scholarly sources isn't fallacy. You are better off sucking my dick
Catholics draw their demographic base from Mexicans. Who would want to associate with that?
>>76355797
Appealing to authority/tradition is, indeed, a fallacy, good sir bong.
>>76355723
Is Jesus also a door and a Shepard. Jesus did use symbols he wasn't literally a lamb
>>76355835
niggers in the US are protestants. Who would want to associate with that?
>>76351008
Why do people insist on lumping all lumpers together.
>>76355848
Tell that to the Early Christians and the authors of the NT
Does anyone listen to religious based music? What does everybody think of Coloring Book?
>>76355781
>Tfw there are no beautiful Catholic churches near you.
>>76355535
Of course one believes scripture is inspired because of faith however there are arguments that they can use to defend them
>>76355548
Tradition is fine under Protestantism and many of the apostles would have had a similar view of orthodoxy but when you now have views like purgatory which can't be defend by scripture and are only believed because of tradition then you have an issue (see Patrick Madrid).
>>76355627
Look I don't care too much about these things. Your religion is pagan so its all outwards for you. But your theology is faulty and bankrupt.
> They have wealth, yes but it's pretty easy to be dismissive of them considering the only reason their denomination exists, is because King Henry was pissed he couldn't get a divorce.
No. The CoE developed separately and has existed since the 300s.
> Martin Luther emphasized sola scriptura, yet the first thing he did was remove books from the Bible.
Nice bait. You act as if these arguments havent been addressed?
St. Jerome who translated the Bible into Latin originally translated only 66 or how about Pope Gregory the Great supporting 66 books.
>>76353230
>not posting /pol/ approved Mother and child
>>76355932
Most of us have separate churches though
>>76355976
I would if they weren't dead. Maybe in heaven.
>>76355848
Isn't Jesus the ultimate authority? Aren't you committing a fallacy when you say that something is right because Jesus says so? By that definition you might as well be an atheist. You are just a stupid troll
Why are Calvinists Gnostics?
>>76355723
I didn't know Ignatius's writings were inspired?
>>76355848
An appeal to authority is only fallacious if the authority is fallacious.
>>76356147
We're not
>>76356027
There are arguments, sure. But what kinds of arguments they are is important. You can give me reasons I might want to believe x has quality y, but that's different than giving be a reason to believe x *does have* quality y as a matter of fact or truth.
>>76356046
Heaven is where i would ravage you but with lube
To make this real simple, let's pretend all canids (dogs, wolves, foxes) are one species. That's still 1,271,220 independent species that need to fit on Noah's ark to produce all the non-extinct animal species that exist on Earth (without evolution).
God gave us reason and logic for a reason. Please don't reject His gifts.
>>76356127
Not in that case, since God existentially determines what is right as a matter of universal fact. The problem with appeals to non-God authorities is that whatever they say *doesn't* necessarily correlate to universal Truth - it's a fallacy when men are appealed to, but not when God is because of that.
>>76356192
>>76355781
Looks comfy. Have you ever been to Rome or the Vatican? I'd love to go in the next few years.
>>76356226
Oh yeah I remember you. You're that atheist shitposter. lel
>>76356357
Noah only had to bring kinds on the ark
>>76356357
Its not hard when 90% of it are insects
>>76356209
You and the Gnostics deny free will and advocate predestination. You cannot believe in a loving God if you are calvinist for this deity is so deceitful that he creates the illusion of self determination in humans when there is in fact none given predestination
http://www.easterbrooks.com/personal/calendar/index.php
OP, this website updates daily with the latest liturgy, readings, memorials, and rosaries. You can just copy it in to the general for us.
>>76356395
>>76356388
> all of these aestheticism
> still going to hell for denying jesus's perfect work on the cross
>>76355835
I've only seen a few Mexican Catholics in my life. Literally 99% of parishioners in churches are white.
>>76356192
There are some decent ones in Toronto but they don't compare to the ones in Europe.
>>76356190
Can you determine whether an authority is telling lies or falsities when it comes to past time-states you can't experience, and whose propositions concern phenomena you couldn't verify even if they were around?
>>76349926
What do you guys think about Celtic Christianity?
>>76356357
It's obvious from before you're a shitposter
>>76356457
I present to you semi-compatabalism
But can you explain why we need free will to have moral responsibility?
And what do you mean by loving? God is only loving to his elect
That's not the Protestant base, though. Not even in the black infested south are there more black protestants than white protestants. On the other hand, the average Catholic in the West and South is some poor, stupid, brown person.
>>76356027
Protestants don't follow Tradition as Lane had outlined. This is why he himself took great care to distinguish between the Protestant view and thAt of the Early Church.
why is the book of enoch not in the bible? Is the book of enoch important even though it's technically not scripture? Were there giants that lived on earth that were offspring of male angels and human females? Is hillary clinton the antichrist?
>>76356376
>Not in that case, since God existentially determines what is right as a matter of universal fact
Tradition comes from the instructions Jesus gave to the apostles.
>The problem with appeals to non-God authorities is that whatever they say *doesn't* necessarily correlate to universal Truth
The problem is that you reject the authority of the Church fathers who were instructed by the apostles (who were instructed by Jesus) by appealing to the authority of your own understanding of Christianity. Even if you don't accept that tradition comes from Jesus and therefore God, you oppose to a more authoritative human understanding of doctrine, your own personal, less authoritative in everyway and still HUMAN understanding of christianity. Basically, unless you are speaking directly to God (which isn't the case) you have no right nor authority to rebuke what Church fathers unanimously taught
>>76356018
>religious based music
I listen to some Gregorian Chants. I guess I'll give Chance a go. Any other Christian rappers?
>>76356024
MasstTimes.org
You can find some churches on there, my friend. :)
>>76356645
>But can you explain why we need free will to have moral responsibility?
Can you explain to me in what world a leaf can be morally culpable for being moved by the wind?
>>76356457
We have choice, we just can't choose God without his help.
Gnostics worship a God known as Sophia who took the form of the serpeant in the Garden, Gnostics literally worship satan, I worship a totally sovereign God, who is Triune, and the creator of the universe
>>76356490
>implying we deny it
>implying it isn't you who have faulty doctrine
lmao
>>76356534
It makes sense. They are more recente after all. The old ones are the best. Check out this sanctuary.
>>76356636
Irish monks are the reason we're all still Christian today.
>>76356730
Or they're lying about it. Intentionally or not.
I don't appeal to my authority - I tell you straight up I don't know the truth of the matter. But you don't either. Which is why I bash you.
>>76356645
That Doesn't work when everything is ultimately caused and part of God's own plan! This means that any "choice" or "act" made is in fact placed there intentionally by God himself. This is simply akin to me controlling a wind up toy. It moves but not of its own will but mine even if I didn't directly push it!
>>76356756
There is a church 5 minute walking distance from my house that I have been going to since I was born.
>>76356939
Aren't you an atheist?
Also yes!
>>76356780
The Gnostic believe the same too even if it is some other deity doing it. Your dishonest presentation of Calvinism here is disgusting. The fact of predestination entails that nobody makes choices. The fucking Catholics basically believe in that definition you placed! Even the Arminians!
>>76356937
>Or they're lying about it. Intentionally or not.
So you have a bias towards them and you are assuming they either lie or are wrong without any motivation? And you call yourself a rational person. L M A O
> I tell you straight up I don't know the truth of the matter
>u can't no nuffing
that cop-out. L M A O
>>76357065
Thank you for showing us all your agreement to what Calvinism is!
>>76356636
Some culture you'll enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxzM_Y0cYJA
>>76356588
No, I'm not equipped to comfortably determine whether an authority is telling the truth in any field but my own. I don't have the capacity to recreate physics experiments or go into orbit around the earth either.
I can determine whether or not an authority has a reasonable claim to being an authority. Which is what the argument to authority's validity rests on.
>>76356483
Favorited the site. Thanks.
>>76357214
God created everyone with a will, it's just not libertarian free will. Judas iscariot is a good example
>>76357241
I have a bias against some people, sure. But I don't say "they are wrong", I say "I don't think they're right". And there's no reason I should think they're right that isn't a logical fallacy. You Catholics are really bad at convincing people.
You in particular are also quite a prolific shitposter ;)
>>76353686
i dont get it how catholics can be proud of pic
it's like they dont even know
>>76357352
>I can determine whether or not an authority has a reasonable claim to being an authority
Freudian psychologists and astrologists did - and a few still do - believe they can do the same.
>>76357372
That's akin to me saying that a wind up toy that moves simply because I twist the wind up has "will". This is what Compatabilism with a deity looks like
>>76357214
I mean predestination is kinda biblical I'm I'm sorry if this hurts your feels
>>76357395
>I have a bias against some people
why do you have a bias against church fathers?
>I say "I don't think they're right".
so why don't you think they are right?7
>And there's no reason I should think they're right that isn't a logical fallacy.
I have already showed you that believing what the church fathers said, or rather, believing their views on doctrine and interpretation of scripture is not a fallacy, even if you don't blieve their views directly came from God.
> You Catholics are really bad at convincing people.
Before we can convince you, you must first convince yourself and dissipate your prejudices and superstition.
Also it is obviously hard to accept truth, anon. We know that. Much easier to create a version of Christianity based on your personal feelings.
>You in particular are also quite a prolific shitposter ;)
Pot calling the kettle black
>>76357426
How can Protestants so arrogantly claim Early Christianity as theirs and deny science when evidence points to the contrary!
Please explain to me why Islam is a lie, but Christianity is the true religion of God? Or really any other religion for that matter?
>>76357334
Thank you, that seems interesting.
>>76357598
It's not. Only the Gnostics believed in it heretic
>>76357573
Well if God wanted everyone to Go to Heaven, then they would go there, but Calvinist understand that's not the case, you don't have to be a Calvinist to go to heaven though, we are just biblically consistent
>>76357684
more on the subject
>>76357711
Islam is a combination of Judaism, Christianity, Arabic paganism and Mohammed's insecurities.
>Satan is the most powerful being God created
>Literally tricked God himself, deceived the whole world and turned his naughty corner into a Kingdom within a few years
Based as fuck, would rather Satan than YHWH.
>>76357769
Eph1
Romans 8
John 6:37
I'll start you off with these. Let me know when your done reading
>>76357681
Why should I?
Believing other people just because they tell you they have the answers isn't wise, and I won't do it. It's not fallacious to believe anything you want, but trying to *argue* that other people should believe something *because of* fallacious reasons is - in fact - fallacious.
Just because you call people authorities or call something tradition doesn't make something true that comes from them.
>>76357809
A Calvinist must believe in a deity that deceives by giving humans the illusion of self determination when they have in fact none!
>>76357890
You shill the same thing in every /csg/ thread.
>>76357441
A number of issues here:
- The Patristics didn't agree on everything
- The church fathers aren't inspired
- ANS Lane is an Anglican
- You don't understand Protestantism
- You don't understand Calvinism
- You're an atheist
- You don't respond to things you don't like and ignore them
>>76357711
It was written by one man without any eye witnesses for starts
>>76357684
>12 What I mean is this: that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” “I belong to Apollos,” “I belong to Cephas,” “I belong to Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you, or were you baptized in Paul’s name?
>>76357890
Not if Calvinism is true
>>76358012
>every /csg/ thread
>every..
This is only my second time coming to one of these threads. Try harder.
>>76357962
Let me know when you can find any Church Father in the Ante Nicene period who believes in your shit
>>76358011
Well it's the God of the Bible Jesus died for his sheep
>>76358065
And thats why I am a Calvinist. It's biblical.
>>76351789
If your a college freshman or can get tenure as a French philosopher maybe
>>76355730
Pretty much. I don't trust the cunt, but like the >>76354108 said, his word doesn't carry real weight unless he explicitly says it does. These are all quick speeches that were never intended to become axioms.
I don't deny youth aren't swayed by them, though. People will be analyzing his ISIS is Jesus allegory for the next fucking decade now.
>>76358141
Augustine, Paul, Jesus, Peter, John, is that enough
>>76358177
Amen, Presbyterian or Baptist?
>>76358026
ANS Lane is a fucking Calvinist like you! The Church Fathers are consistent and in agreement on core issues of faith. And you can't even show me that Calvinism isn't as I had described
>>76357985
>Why should I?
Look, you cannot have a bias towards someone's belives without a reason. If your only reason is that you'd rather believe yourself than people who obviously know better than you, but without any reasonable justification about why that is, then you are simply showing us how full of shit you are.
Give me a reason why one should be biased towards church fathers. You cannot find one? Then give me a reason why your reason and opinions should overrule and be superior to theirs. Cannot do it? Then shut up and accept that they are right and you are wrong.
>It's not fallacious to believe anything you want
lmao literally the opposite. Believing whatever you want is a fallacy by definition
>trying to *argue* that other people should believe something *because of* fallacious reasons is - in fact - fallacious.
I already showed you it is not a fallacious reason. Ok let's assume it is a fallacious reason, ok? Just for the sake of it. It is still a less fallacious reason than the one you are using to justify your beliefs. There is more degree of fallacy in your decision to follow your own instinct and personal views of christianity.
>>76357711
>Jesus
Loved everyone, celibate, preached peace and forgiveness.
>Mohammad
Warlord, pedophile, rapist, murderer, hated pretty much everyone.
Read the Koran. Yes, there are violent parts in the Bible, but 99% of the violent verses come from the Old Testament. The message of the New Testament is love. The message from the Koran is hate. It's painfully obvious that Mohammad was an evil man.
The Bible was written by various prophets and multiple apostles, many years apart. The Koran was by Mohammad alone. The hatred contained in the Koran is far greater in content and frequency, and it's only about 1/4th the length of the Bible.
Which of these sounds like the true religion?
>>76358290
Augustine believes that the predestined can fall away. Even McGrath who is Calvinist notes how Augustine is in fact closer to Catholicism. Biblical scholarship also now debunks the Calvinist intepretation of Scripture, alongside all the Church Fathers
>>76358399
Oh I have a reason. I think people in general are out for their own skin and self-gratification. And being waited upon as an "authority" suits people's ego. Ergo a motive for people to sustain their positions as "authorities" by instilling the idea that they are in others.
Boom.
>Believing whatever you want is a fallacy by definition
Pic related. Good luck instantiating that.
>>76358578
Did you read the verses I gave you
>>76358166
You are not answering the implication of Calvinism I raised
>>76353230
Much more common than they were ten years ago before Benedict XVI loosened the rules.
>>76358345
Presbyterian
>>76358686
What are the implications? You're all over the place. Why is an atheist defending Catholicism?
>>76358674
Why should I follow your illogical intepretation of those verses which contradict the very intepretation of the Church Fathers?
>>76358686
How can someone who is born again lose their salvation, when they come Back, are they Born again again
>>76358799
This >>76358011
And that ain't the only one
>>76354229
>How is that relevant
Beauty mediates between the divine and the temporal
>>76349926
I thought Solomon was a demon worshiper, he did create the Ars goetia and all. . .
>>76358844
Why is anyone responding to this illogical retard
He's having two different discussions with himself
He posts images about the real presence but we are talking about the will of man.
>>76358844
Because the Bible is the inspired word of God, and church fathers can make mistakes what denom are you?
>>76354351
Reply.
>>76358886
How can a deity who is not deceitful deceive human beings by giving the illusion of self determination when there is in fact none!
>>76358669
Again, you get cornered by facts and you avoid answering questions, you post a smug weeaboo picture and you act passive-aggressive to hide the fact that you have been BTFO.
The first sign of a person who is out of arguments is when they improvise as psychologists and start saying that everyone else is satisfying their mental problem to distract from the fact that they have no valid arguments to defend their position.
>Pic related. Good luck instantiating that.
If you believe what you want you don't believe what is true. What you want, from every point of view and especially from a christian point of view, can never be true by definition. That's why we look at the most reasonable answer to our question, that in this case would be to follow the interpretation of the Church Fathers regarding the relationship between Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Frankly you are a poor excuse of a troll and the time has come for me to filter you forever
>>76358844
you are giving to priest too much authority
if Jesus came back and priests were against him, who would you ?
>>76358915
People are only deceived by other people. God clearly states that God plans everything out
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. Proverbs 16:9
Look matey you're retarded.
>>76359005
He doesn't we have will, it's just courrupted
>>76358994
HE'S AN ATHEIST
I HAVE DISCUSSED THIS WITH HIM BEFORE
>>76356024
Rockville Center (Long Island) is terrible with RC church architecture. It became OK to build ugly churches the same time millions of Catholics moved out from NYC, requiring a lot of cheap churches to be built
>>76358994
So? Even if we play your sola Scriptura game, we still end up with the question of why there is no trace of Calvinism and Protestantism in the Church Fathers throughout the ages! Something's clearly wrong when none of your shit is to
Be found in the infancy of Christianity
>>76359160
Oh well he needs to repent
>>76359006
Yes, because
>Oh I have a reason. I think people in general are out for their own skin and self-gratification. And being waited upon as an "authority" suits people's ego. Ergo a motive for people to sustain their positions as "authorities" by instilling the idea that they are in others.
is *TOTALLY* not a response to
>Give me a reason why one should be biased towards church fathers
That is some real low-level shitposting you've got going on mane.
What you want to believe can also be true, dipshit-san~
>>76359006
>Praceteom
Google him, he always uses the same tactics.
>>76359043
We already have biblical scholarship debunking the Protestant intepretations of it. The Anchor Bible Dictionary is a good example of this
>>76359183
Your not even a Christian, Repent and put your trust in Christ
>>76359360
you didnt awnser my question tho
>>76359276
I am definitely never wasting my time with him again. He got BTFO for the Nth time anyway. Filtered forever.
>>76359077
This is a red herring. God deceives for he makes it look like choices matter and we are self determining. This is so when one believes in a God that presestines prior to Creating his puppets!
>>76358462
Im not denying the Quran is full of horrible shit. It is. I just dont get how people will say Christianity is the one true religion based only how "nice" the book is. Why not believe in Hinduism? Or something else? I'm genuinely curious.
>>76359502
Repent
>>76359409
Because it is ridiculous as it entails Jesus literally lying and breaking his promise that his church won't fall. Yet it does before a hundred years of his Resurrection!
>>76359502
Your objection is emotional not logical
>>76359360
You posted a Calvinist scholar which means a man more well-versed in church history than you remained unchanged. The other you posted 2 church fathers
>>76359445
We both know you'll always keep responding with your inane shit. You're a shitposter, after all.
See you next time!
>>76357491
So do modern biologists and astronomers. What was your point again? Is it somehow less reasonable to believe in evolution because of Freud?
Either the ECFs were capable of and concerned with selecting for accurate representations of the teachings of Jesus or they were not. It is both my faith and the significantly more reasonable belief in my opinion that they were so capable and concerned.
I understand that you post from the view of a radical skeptic. But, absolute certainties aren't the only reasonable positions to hold.
>>76359531
Islam is also inconsistent with Tacitus who was a Roman Historian who claimed Jesus was put to death by pntius Pilate, Muslims believe Jesus was called up like Elijah
>>76359224
As a Calvinist you have to believe that God is controlling me or made it such that I act this way. It's the very implication of predestination, particularly as expressed in the Westminster Confession
>>76359622
what? so you dont trust Jesus?
people is still strong believeing in him, those who maintain the faith through the test are the good ones
>>76359763
Yes. In your heart you have this hate for God and that's what you will be punished for. I have submitted myself to God.
>>76357809
That isn't Biblically consistent at all. The Bible declares at least once outright and implies throughout that God wishes that everyone would be saved. If God were choosing, we'd all choose correctly.
>>76359763
Repent and put your trust in Christ and I will do a bible study with you, but if your not gonna follow Jesus, you might as well eat drink and be merry
>>76359531
>Why not believe in Hinduism? Or something else?
See NT Wright or Peter Kreeft's articles concerning the historicity of Christ's resurrection. Christianity is built the claim that certain events happened historically.
>>76359635
That is a logical argument. Looks like you can't even read. Why does it matter that ANS Lane is still Calvinist? Those like him aren't crazy fucked up idiots
Like you and shows honesty
>>76359896
Verse?
Here are mine
Eph 1
Romans 8:28-
Romans 9
John 10
John 6;37
>>76359763
you will notice that everytime you give them reason and arguments, all they can answer is "repent" and "random strawman about you hating christians and jesus because I say so".
They don't realise the irony that according to their criteria for salvation, Catholics are saved, but that if the Catholic criteria are true, they most likely aren't.
>>76359698
That you can't make that determination. You're just as likely to be wrong as right. Perhaps moreso.
I don't know in what world I'm obligated to believe whatever people say - which is also my point.
There's nothing reasonable about "absolute certainties" that *AREN'T* absolute certainties.
>>76360074
if you repent of your sins, trust Christ and are baptized in his name you are saved
God is going to be the judge of the other things
>>76357962
you're
>>76359373
you're
>>76359899
you're
You Americans really need to learn your own language.
>>76359827
Well, Jesus promised that not even the gates of Hades would prevail against his church. But if this is true then we should expect at the very least, a continuation of doctrine which is consistent throughout the ages as reflecting this.
>>76359884
It's also part of your disgusting deity's plan who also deceives and placed it there for his predestination to work.
>>76359899
Eat shit and get banged puppet scum
>>76360281
you can lose your salvation
>>76360281
Baptism is a public declaration of your faith, not what saves you
>>76360377
Auto correct on my phone :(
>>76360428
John 6:37
John 10:28
>>76360452
>But now I lead you to understanding by the same paths. For you see that all things are produced from waters. But water was made at first by the Only-begotten; and the Almighty God is the head of the Only-begotten, by whom we come to the Father in such order as we have stated above. But when you have come to the Father you will learn that this is His will, that you be born anew by means of waters, which were first created. For he who is regenerated by water, having filled up the measure of good works, is made heir of Him by whom he has been regenerated in incorruption. Wherefore, with prepared minds, approach as sons to a father, that your sins may be washed away, and it may be proved before God that ignorance was their sole cause. For if, after the learning of these things, you remain in unbelief, the cause of your destruction will be imputed to yourselves, and not to ignorance. And do you suppose that you can have hope towards God, even if you cultivate all piety and all righteousness, but do not receive baptism. Yea rather, he will be worthy or greater punishment, who does good works not well; for merit accrues to men from good works, but only if they be done as God commands. Now God has ordered every one who worships Him to be sealed by baptism; but if you refuse, and obey your own will rather than God's, you are doubtless contrary and hostile to His will.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/080406.htm
>>76360452
Some Protestants see baptism as a mere ordinance, a symbol of ones commitment to Christ. As a result they only baptize adults who have made such a commitment. To their way of thinking baptizing infants would serve no purpose. Catholics see baptism a little differently. We see it as one of the sacraments of Initiation. We believe that its reception imparts both actual and sanctifying grace.
In Acts 2:38-39, Peter says, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Him."
Why would Peter mention children if it only applied to adults? I suppose someone could say that it would apply to them in the future. But isn’t that a given? If something is for adults it obviously would be for your children once they became adults. I think Peter mentions children here because he meant that it applied to them at that very moment. Given the nature of baptism, that actually makes a lot of sense. Peter said we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit in baptism. Through the Holy Spirit we receive grace. And it is grace that enables us to be who God wants us to be.
>>76359698
>>76360103
Ignore the last sentence I misread you.
Being a Christian isn't an absolute certainty and I'm a Christian - so of course I don't hold that only absolute certainties can be held to reasonably.
But that *does not obligate me* to believe whoever says something. I'm not obligated to believe anyone in regard to anything. If I do believe them it's because I want to.
I gotta sleep though.
Peace.
>>76360412
> It's also part of your disgusting deity's plan who also deceives and placed it there for his predestination to work.
Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
>>76360452
Bro read up above. He is a reprobate. He won't even answer that his an atheist. In other threads before he has said it.
>>76360590
So why would an infant need grace? Because their entire existence is a learning experience. We teach them how to eat, how to communicate, how to behave and a thousand other things. And if we are Christians we teach them about Jesus. First Corinthians 12:3 tells us that "no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit." If an adult needs the Holy Spirit to recognize his need for God then so does a child. At Baptism there is an infusion of grace. If the grace an infant receives at Baptism is nourished (in a Christian atmosphere) it grows; if not, it dies. Grace enables us to hear and accept the Gospel not only as adults but also as children hearing it for the first time. Does that mean that our small children are supposed to be little theologians? No, of course not. But they do need to understand God on their own level. That He is a loving Father who they can cry out to. A God who wants them to be happy forever.
In his book "The Faith of Millions," Fr. John O’Brien writes: "While there is no explicit mention of the baptizing of infants in the New Testament, it is highly probable that there were some babes among the families of Lydia, Stephanas, and the Jailer at Philippi, where in each instance St. Paul baptized the whole family" [Acts 16:14-15, Acts 16:29-34 and 1 Corinthians 1:16].
Perhaps the most important aspect of the rule of faith is that it gives us what the Church conceived to be ‘the main body of truth’ (to use Irenaeus’ phrase). The Scriptures are, after all, a body of documents testifying to God’s activity towards men in Christ. They are not a rule of faith, nor a list of doctrines, nor a manual of the articles of a Christian man’s belief. In the rule of faith we have a key to what the Church thought the Scriptures came to, where it was, so to speak, that their weight fell, what was their drift. This interpretation of their drift was itself tradition, a way of handling the Scriptures, a way of living in them and being exposed to their effect, which, while not an original part of the Christian Gospel, not itself the paradosis par excellence, had been developed from the Gospel itself, from its heart, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as an essential part of the existence of the Christian faith in history…
We cannot recognize the rule of faith as original tradition, going back by oral continuity independently of Scripture to Christ and his apostles. But we can recognize it as the tradition in which the Church was interpreting Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and as such claim it as an essential ingredient of historical Christianity. (R.P.C. Hanson, Tradition In The Early Church, pp. 128, 129)
>>76360032
2 Peter 3:9
God wants none to perish.
1 Tim 2:3-4
God wills that all men be saved
There are verses that imply predestination and those that show God wills all men to be saved. The consistent approach must be able to incorporate both.
>>76360659
In Colossians 2:11-12 Paul alludes to infant baptism when he tells us that Baptism has replaced circumcision. Circumcision took place on the eighth day after birth (Genesis 17:12). We know that the early Christians baptized their infants on the eighth day after birth because the third Council of Carthage decreed in the year 252, "that baptism of children need not be deferred until the eighth day after birth as some maintained, but might be administered as soon as possible" (Cyprian of Carthage, Epistle 64 (59), 2). When someone became a Jew they were circumcised. And when someone becomes a Christian they are baptized: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13).
That infants can benefit spiritually is clearly seen in Luke 18:15-16: "Now they were bringing even infants to Him that He might touch them. And when the disciples saw it they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to Him saying, 'Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.'" Mark finishes the story in his account, "And He took them in His arms and blessed them, laying His hands upon them" (Mark 10:16).
The Waldenses and the Cathari were the first to raise objections to infant Baptism (12th century). Modern day objections can be traced back to the Anabaptists who were a part of the Protestant Reformation (16th century). However, there are no early Christian writers who condemn the practice. In fact, there is much written in support of it. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John, he wrote: "Christ came to save all who through Him are born again unto God, infants and children, boys and youths, and aged persons" (Against Heresies 2, 22:4 [A.D. 189). Origen wrote: "Baptism is given even to infants" (Homilies in Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
>>76360649
It cannot and it's part of God's plan especially for his predestination which he made by intention before making everything that exist come into fruition
>>76360727
When we make a personal commitment to Christ (post baptism) it is our conscious decision to keep and maintain what God has already given us. Baptism doesn't guarantee one's salvation; rather one is saved as a result of responding positively to the grace we receive.
A question frequently asked by some Protestants is: "Have you been born again?" What they mean by this is "Have you accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior?" If you have then you are said to be "born again." In actuality it is through Baptism that we are born again. As the Scriptures tell us: "Unless one is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
Of course there is a sense in which the Protestant interpretation is true. If someone truly gives their life to Christ there is a rebirth. As we read in 2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come." But John is talking about something different here. He doesn’t disagree with Paul; he is just talking about something else. Reading the verse in context illustrates the point. The NIV translates it this way:
Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him." Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
"How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." (John 3:1-6).
>>76360428
if you follow Christ you dont lose it
>>76360793
The Greek word rendered as "again" is anothen (ἄνωθεν). Anothen is a word that can mean one of two things. It can mean again as in to repeat something. And that is the way that Nicodemus seems to understand it. But it can also mean "from above." And judging by His comments to Nicodemus that is exactly the way Jesus meant it.
Being born from above is another way of saying born of the Spirit. And Jesus describes how that will happen when He says "no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." Water and the Spirit, Jesus is talking about Baptism. Remember that John the Baptist said of Jesus: "this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit" (John 1:33). And that is exactly what Jesus does in the sacrament of baptism.
Some maintain that only baptism by total immersion is valid. However, the Early Church administered baptism in three ways. Some were baptized by total immersion and some were baptized by having water poured or sprinkled over the head. The "Didache" was written between 70 and 150 AD. It was a handbook of Christian practice. It tells us that those being baptized could be immersed in water, but if it wasn't practical, "sprinkle water three times on the head" (2:7). Tertullian, writing in the second century, describes Baptism as, "a sprinkling of any kind of water" (Baptism 6:1). So when would immersion be impractical? Immersion would be impractical for those converted in colder climates or in prison. Total immersion would also be impractical for the sick and the dying.
>>76360848
There are three types of baptism. Aside from water baptism there is baptism of desire. If a person comes to believe in Jesus but doesn’t know that baptism is required or else dies before it could be administered, his honest desire for Christ would be sufficient. Likewise water baptism is not a requirement for those who are martyred upon conversion. The Church refers to this as Baptism of Blood. While water Baptism is normative, God is not legalistic. What is most important to Him is the condition of one's heart (1 Samuel 16:7, 1 Corinthians 4:5). All those who truly desire God shall have Him.
>>76360281
>faith alone
>>76360590
Again I have mentioned above and you have demonstrated that you are mentally retarded and can't track the flow of a discussion.
You have made an argument against credo-baptism. I am a Protestant paedo-baptist.
>>76360829
That entails I can lose it if I commit apostasy.
Hence if I cannot lose it, then Calvinism is the only option
>>76360590
Acts 2:38 was a mistranslation of the Greek, the focus is on repentance which is something that God does to you, Baptism is very very important, but you are justified by faith(Romans 5:1) not faith and a ceremony.
Carm did a Good section on this one, I grew up church of Christ, so they believe similar things
>>76360829
so you admit you can lose salvation even if you have faith?
>>76360630
>I'm not obligated to believe anyone in regard to anything.
Well no, you're only obligated to believe certain things if you want to keep true to other conditions like logical and reasonable or Christian.
>If I do believe them it's because I want to.
That is the opposite of how a Christian is supposed to discern.
Peace to you as well.
>>76360919
you are justified by faith, but retain salvation through works and sacraments
>>76360649
Oh, I'll stop answering, I'm a reformed Baptist, but I don't think somebody is going to hell for Baptizing Babies
>>76360902
I wasn't even talking to you lmao
>>76361043
That doesn't make sense to me personally. But I guess since you guys deny forensic justification and that one can lose his justification it would make sense.
>>76361131
By far the most popular teaching to come out of the Protestant Reformation was the doctrine of "Justification by Faith Alone." Sometimes this is referred to as "The Assurance of Salvation." Martin Luther held that once a person professes a belief in Christ He is saved for all eternity. Anything he does from that point on has no effect on it. Once saved always saved. He once wrote: "No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" (Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521).This of course was in stark contrast to what the Church had been teaching from the beginning.
Martin Luther’s new teaching was in direct opposition to the teachings of the Bible. The apostle Paul clearly tells us that salvation can be lost. He affirms this when writing the church at Corinth, "but you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor the idolaters, nor the adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:8-10).
It is important to note that Paul is talking to Christians. In other words, those who Martin Luther would say are saved. And yet Paul is warning them. He points out their sins and then he tells them not to be deceived because those who commit such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God. The message here seems pretty clear; straighten up or lose it all.
Earlier in the same letter he allows for the possibility that even he might not be saved. He said:
>>76361129
He was arguing against baptismal regeneration but you posted against credobaptism
>>76361100
The Roman system is a treadmill of sacraments.
You can be out of a state grace. But it really rests on faulty exegesis.
>>76355781
>implying you want to feel like you're in a mosque
>>76360919
Here's what the original Greek meant
to change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins: Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:15 (cf. Matthew 3:6 ἐξομολογούμενοι τάς ἁμαρτίας αὐτῶν; Matthew 3:8 and Luke 3:8 kαρπούς ἀξίους τῆς μετανοίας, i. e. conduct worthy of a heart changed and abhorring sin); (Matthew 11:20; Mark 6:12); Luke 13:3, 5; Luke 15:7, 10; Luke 16:30; Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30; Revelation 2:5, 16; Revelation 3:3, 19;
http://biblehub.com/greek/3340.htm
That does not entail mind control
>>76360967
everybody make sins, but if you repent and keep walking with Christ, you are still saved
>>76361197
It is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God (1 Corinthians 4:2-5).
Unlike Martin Luther Paul does not claim to be saved. And he rightly points out that it is God who pronounces judgement. And he takes the extra step to tell others not to pronounce judgement. That means you can never definitively say that someone in particular is headed for hell or that they are saved. Only God can make that judgement. And He makes that final judgement at the second coming.
Paul claims that it is possible for him to lose his salvation a second time in 1 Corinthians 9:25-27: "Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air, but I pommel my body and subdue it lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
I don’t think that anyone would argue with the fact that Paul is a Christian at this point. And yet in this passage he tells us that he can lose his salvation. The reason why Paul, and anyone else for that matter, can lose their salvation is because even after accepting Christ a person is still capable of sinning and remaining unrepentant. And repentance is necessary for forgiveness. Paul’s says as much to the Church at Rome:
I need to convert. It's a difficult thing though.
I will do it.
Protestantism is a mess
>>76361197
>1 Corinthians 6:8-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
kingdom of God?
&c.] A way of speaking much like that in the Talmud, (Myqydul ala ywve wnya abh Mlwehv edwy ywh) "know thou, that the world to come is not made but for the righteous?" F8 Without a righteousness there will be no entrance into the world of bliss and happiness hereafter; and this must be a better righteousness than what a sinful creature is capable of working out, and no other than the righteousness of Christ. It was a loss and want of righteousness that cast the angels down from heaven, and turned Adam out of paradise; and whoever of his posterity: are destitute of one, will fall short of enjoying the glory of God; for it is not agreeable to the holy nature of God, to his infinite justice and righteous law, to admit any into heaven without a righteousness: hence a judgment seat is erected, before which all must stand; and those that will be found without a righteousness, will be for ever excluded the kingdom of heaven; and could any unrighteous persons be received there, it would spoil the pleasure and happiness of the saints. Now this is said, partly to dissuade the Corinthians from going to law with each other before unrighteous persons, who have no right to the kingdom of God, and living and dying as they are, will have no share in it; and therefore since they are not to be fellow heirs and companions with them in another world, they should not bring their causes before them in this; and partly to reprove them for their injurious and unrighteous actions among themselves, their tricking and defrauding of one another, with other sins they were guilty of; which, if not repented of, would show, that notwithstanding their profession, they were destitute of the grace of God, were unfit to be in the kingdom of God, in a Gospel church state here below, and would be shut out of the kingdom of heaven hereafter.
>>76361288
Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).
We find Jesus issuing a similar warning to the Church at Ephesus. He says: "Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place, unless you repent (Revelation 2:5).
The Church at Ephesus is obviously a body of Christians. And yet he warns them to repent of their sins otherwise He will remove their lampstand. In other words He will no longer be present among them.
The theme of repentance appears throughout the New Testament. Acts 11:18 makes a reference to "repentance unto life." In Luke 13:3 Jesus tells us we must repent or perish. If we are still capable of sinning after having faith in Jesus then we must still repent when we sin or be separated from Him. In Luke 15:10 Jesus tells us that "there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Certainly one can assume that the opposite is true when there is no repentance. And that’s because without repentance there is no salvation.
As you would expect, the early Church agreed. The epistle of Barnabas which was written around the year 130 reads in part: "So no assumption that we are among the called must ever tempt us to relax our efforts, or fall asleep in our sins, otherwise the prince of evil will obtain control over us, and oust us from the kingdom of the Lord" (4).
>>76361361
Be not deceived
imagining, that through your knowledge and profession you shall be saved, live as you will:
neither fornicators,
such as are guilty of uncleanness with persons in a single state:
nor idolaters;
who worship more gods than one, and not the true God; who do service to them that are not gods, and perform what the Jews call (hrz hdwbe) "strange service": and not only fall down to stocks and stones, but serve divers lusts and pleasures, the idols of their own hearts:
nor adulterers:
such as have criminal conversation with persons in a married state:
nor effeminate;
or "soft", or, as the Syriac renders it, (albxm) , "corrupters"; that is, of themselves, by voluntary pollution, such as are guilty of the sin of Onan, ( Genesis 38:8 Genesis 38:9 ) .
Nor abusers of themselves with mankind;
sodomites.
>>76360680
Or maybe context is important. The letters of Peter were written to the elect, so he is talking about the elect coming to repentance.
Timothy must be talking about all men in a sense that the elect are selected from both the Gentiles and the Jews, or it would contradict the verses I gave you, but you don't have to be a Calvinist to be a Christian, I just think it's biblically consistent
>>76361387
I think that a little history would be helpful in understanding how Martin Luther came to the conclusion that a Christian could never lose his salvation. Martin Luther suffered from a condition called scrupulosity. A person thus afflicted experiences severe anxiety and guilt concerning his own sinfulness. Some describe it as a religious form of OCD. Luther thought that no matter what he did he was always headed for hell. He would go to confession for hours. At one point his confessor told him that God didn’t have a problem with him, he had a problem with God.
From his reading of Scripture he imagined that he had made a startling discovery. He came to the conclusion that Scripture actually taught that we are saved by faith alone. While faith is certainly a vital element on the path to salvation, it is also true that our faith must be evident in our actions. The book of James is very clear on this:
What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
>>76361433
But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead (James 2:14-26).
Martin Luther rejected the book of James. He referred to it as an epistle of straw. Obviously this was due to the fact that it disagreed with his new teaching. He took things a step further and altered Romans 3:28 in his translation of the Bible. The verse reads as follows: "For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law." He changed it to read: "For we hold that a man is justified by faith alone apart from works of law." By adding the word alone he changed the meaning of the verse and put it in direct opposition to James 2:24 which uses the phrase "not by faith alone." By the way the works of the law mentioned here are the works of the ceremonial law not the moral law.
>>76361477
I have said it before but it bears repeating, the works spoken of here are not the product of our intrinsic goodness. They are accomplished by the power (grace) of God. The best the Christian can ever do is to allow God to work through him. That is why James 2 (faith without works is dead) and Romans 5 (we are justified by faith) are in complete harmony. We are saved by faith, "faith working through love." And as we saw earlier love requires action. If there is no love there is no salvation.
And that brings us to our original question; can salvation be lost? It most certainly can be lost. And it will be lost when a Christian rejects God’s grace and remains unrepentant.
>>76361477
> dumping walls of text
gg
>>76361333
Fucking 5 damn 46 fucking AM in your bloody timezone. Fucky shit. You're a early fucking bird.
>>76349926
Seeing your threads every time I come on /pol/ is creeping into my mind.
I haven't been to church since I was fourteen, but now when I'm sitting around at work waiting for someone to break something I'll mentally recite the Lord's Prayer out of nowhere.
Or curse myself when I use the Lord's name in vain.
And I've been thinking about my Grand-dad's old Bible sitting in a box in my closet a lot lately.
Fuck you guys. Leave me alone.
>>76361433
>“Whoever hasn’t sinned should throw the first stone.”
>>76361333
Good luck, brother.
To Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy?
Feel free to ask any questions if it's RC. :)
>>76361565
Maybe the Lord is calling you back?
There's no harm in trying to get closer to God, my friend.
Can someone explain what happened to Elijah?
>>76360848
In the context it best means water of the womb, because that would make best sense because
1. Christian Baptism was not institutionalized yet
2. Whe nichodemus says how can a man be born twice
Then verse 6 says flesh gives birth to flesh, and spirit gives birth to spirit.
Catholcism always interested me, but the current pope is such an insufferable twat I don't think I can take it seriously anymore.
Is Society of St Pious X a meme?
I'm an unbaptised heathen at the moment.
>>76361043
John 10:28 says differently, I do them because I'm saved, not to remain saved
>>76361773
The man is a literal LARPing retard. He posts his walls of text. Responding to him is seriously a waste of time. He wont bother reading. He'll just post a meme.
Atonement in the NT from Anchor Bible dictionary,
The rationale of the Jewish sacrificial system has been much discussed, though with no very conclusive results. Judaism provided no explicit rationale for sacrifice: it was simply the God-given way of dealing with sin, and as such was to be accepted gratefully and humbly. Much discussion has also taken place over whether Jewish sacrifice, and/or Christian interpretations of Jesus‘ death as a sacrifice, should be regarded as ―propitiatory‖ (i.e., averting the anger of a personal deity) or ―expiatory‖ (i.e., nullifying the effects of sin). The idea of appeasing an angry god by sacrifice is certainly present in some non-Jewish ideas of sacrifice. Much hinges on the translation of the word hilaskesthai (and cognates) in the NT, and the equivalent OT words (usually kpr). In non-Jewish Gk, the word clearly carries ideas of propitiation. However, in a classic essay Dodd (1935: 82–95) argued that Jewish and Christian usage differs from that decisively. Here, almost uniformly, the words are used in such a way that God (or His representative) is always the subject, not the object of the action in question; the object is always sin or its effects. This then demands an interpretation of expiation, not propitiation, since God can scarcely be said to propitiate himself in any very meaningful sense. Dodd‘s arguments have convinced many that the NT does not think of Jesus‘ death as appeasing God‘s anger; rather, God, through Jesus, deals with and nullifies sin and its effects. (Cf. Young 1975: 72 and many others; for the contrary view, see Morris 1955: 125–85; Hill 1967: 23–48.)
>>76361552
>>76361589
I've sat in small dark Greek Orthodox churches and loved the honesty of it.
I'm converting to Roman Catholicism though.
It's gunna take fucking weeks.
>>76361890
SSPX is kind of heretical. They're trying to bring them back into communion with Rome.
You could try attending a FSSP parish. It's the exact same thing as SSPX, but non-heretical.
God bless, anon.
>>76361280
Repent
>>76362003
Protesturds are also retarded for denying science and into circular reasoning such as, presuppositional apologetics!
>>76362077
>can't answer argument
>can't be consistent
>tries to play arrogant self righteous
>>76361737
Opening my heart to the Lord would open me up to ridicule, confusion, sorrow, and in the modern world possibly violence.
God is a dangerous entity right now.
>>76361552
When are you taking back Constantinople?
It's not like you can't..
Do it you glorious Russian fucker.
>>76362022
>I'm converting to Roman Catholicism though.
That's great, anon. :)
Call your local parish, let them sign you up for RCIA with the priest. You'll get to find out more about the church/sacraments and then you can be baptize d and confirmed into the church.
Good luck with everything.
>>76362157
If you don't repent you will go to hell
>>76361944
he is talking about eternal life, not this one. In fact a sentence after he says nobody can snatch them from the Father. The Father is in heaven, not on earth.
As usual you cherrypick bible verses to justify your flawed theology. You read too much into a single verse
>>76362212
He could be deceiving you right now if Calvinism is right!
>>76362275
1 John says we already have it, you need to repent
>>76362157
You think your objections havent been handled
If you think circular reasoning is a valid charge against presuppositionalism then you probably think James 2 refutes sola fide
which in both cases proves you are lazy and stupid
and as shown before you have shown that you like to ignore posts and questions that you cant answer and just change the topic
you couldnt even answer whether you were an atheist before
>>76362273
Your deity predestined me for it, I cannot do anything.
You can't even be consistent.
Hence, showing how illogical Calvinism is!
>>76362292
Only Satan would draw someone to RC
>>76362212
Following the path of Lord Jesus was never easy, man. You should definitely give it a try, though.
Good luck with whatever you do.
>>76362372
How do you know your not predestined for heaven
>>76362390
Your protestant "holier than thou" hate is strong. What happened to loving your fellow brothers in Christ?
>>76362354
James refutes Sola Fide of the Calvinist sort since the statement implies him addressing autonomous agents hence the warning.
Nobody warns puppets.
If any you are the lazy and stupid one here, a lazy and stupid puppet of your sick, twisted and arrogant deity!
>>76362372
1. You are retarded
2. Retardation prevents you from thinking inductively and logically
3. You have yet to prove free will is a precondition for responsbility
I grew up brethren. Calvinism is stupid, lets be fair.
>>76362292
>Calvinism
Protestantism is my grandfather's bag of dicks. I can appreciate him for giving up half his life to preach, but I don't think I could ever reconcile myself to a Protestant denomination.
If I were going somewhere, it would be Orthodox.
>>76362390
At least they match the Early Church better unlike Protestantism.
>>76362564
are you calling the pharisees early church? that what catholics are doing
>>76362479
The same question is to be asked on how do you know you are predestined?
But either way, whether I "know" doesn't matter since it's god, not me. Under your system I'm not autonomous but controlled by God who had planned every single act of mine such that his plan will be fulfilled.
>>76362346
lmao out of arguments, aren't we?
I love you anyway anon :3
>>76362673
the end is written, you think it's not planned?
>>76362673
Personal experience
>>76362680
No I tell everyone who teaches a false doctrine to repent
>>76362668
Show me Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide as the Protestant defines it in the Early Church then you can say this.
Otherwise, piss off
>>76362501
You are talking about yourself.
Anyone with a brain knows that the reason why free will is hot shit in philosophy is because free will is required for responsibility.
Philosophers of religion go for the libertarian approach and they have to since Compatabilism is simply a buzzword especially when a deity is involved
If any you are the one who demonstrate inability to respond properly, use academical sources and provide proper arguments
>>76362923
>>76362923
>>76362923
NEW
NEW
NEW
>>76362532
Same.
You don't know how much shit Protestantism or at least the Evangelicals are.
>>76362924
Christ define the church, what do you think defines it? Paul? ha
>>76361197
Before I read on, first I must ask..
"Did Jesus say it?"
If the answer is no, I Will not follow it in absoluteness. Rather, it will be. Guideline to what the Lord said. Paul was no Lord.
>>76362882
so why don't you tell yourself to repent? :3
>>76362719
Which is irrelevant when considering it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Or better yet, tell that to ex Christians imbecile
>>76362718
Calvinist scum, die
>>76363081
>condemning people
this is a 2016 pharisee
>>76363037
The Church logically consists of people.
So, I expect that there'll be people throughout the ages that would if your shitty brand of Christianity be true, hold statements and interpretations of Scripture that matches.
We find none of that shit
>>76363139
Protesturds do this best hypocrite
>>76363081
I guess they were scottsman then 1 John 2:15, or God will bring them back
>>76363164
people can be wrong, Christ doesnt, that's why you should follow priest like they are Christ, look at the catholic church being pagans n shit
>>76363229
Showing the arrogance of Calvinism!
>>76363279
And thus that means you too would be so wrong when your interpretation of Scripture contradicts those of the earlier centuries and Christianity's infancy.
Too bad shitty Calvinist
>>76363320
You can't experience true grace till you are one;)
ITT CALVINISM REKT
>>76363451
And ironically it doesn't matter since God predestines anyway and it is all part of his plan to occur since the beginning.
This ultimately causes all the problems I had outlined
>TFW Calvinism is evil
>>76363401
the only thing that can guide us is the Holy Spirit that Christ has sent, listen everything and take what is the right in Christ eyes
>>76363567
Your an atheist why do you care
>>76363635
And I expect the same Spirit to be active in the past which still makes the problem I had stated remain.
Too bad Calvinturd
>>76363694
Because it is an abhorrent system that is a threat to rationality as shown by Presuppositional apologetics
>>76363709
if you have the Spirit you do the things that Christ said, not like catholics do, condemning people and praying to humans
