http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/an-imperfect-god/
The god of the new testament and the translations of the bible have been influenced by greek mythology and, from this corrupted point of view emerged the idea of a "perfect" god. The God of the Torah is not perfect, but he is real.
A perfect god is an aberration since creation is imperfect, and there is no wonder as to why, as soon as christiannity stopped being forced onto people, it has been abandonned.
Not debating the existence or role of Jesus Christ here, just the fact that christians (and muslims alike) have been cucked into beleiving a greek fairy tale of a perfect god.
>>68618144
So tell me what God is missing
>>68618192
It's not my place to judge YHWH but he is not a pefect god, he never claimed to be, he changed his mind many times, regretted having created man, and can be summed up in the sentence "I will be what I will be" when asked by Moses who He is. The false translation of "I am what I am" was influenced by the greek idea of a perfect god, which is foolish and in contradiction with the Torah.
>>68618144
>>68618311
Changing one's mind doesn't make him imperfect.
Being unable to do so would.
Your standards of "perfection" are biased.
2/10
>>68618409
if one is perfect he has perfect knowledge of everything and does not need to change his mind.
You're undermining the term "perfect", to make it possible for you to accept the idea of a "perfect" god.
In other words, you're fighting with your inner cuck.
>>68618311
Thats a very interesting point, I've thought a lot about why the Old Testament seems to portray Him as capable of misinterpreting things or incorrectly predicting the outcome of certain events. But could it not be our own limits and imperfections that cloud the truth? For a mortal like you or I to try to understand God, as much as it is right to tirelessly try, is basically useless, right? We dont pray on truths, we pray on mysteries. By doing this we become more divine, as opposed to making Him more human.
>>68618518
I don't think that perfection = absolute omniscience.
In the Bible, perfection is about morality.
>>68618518
human actions, being imperfect, influence Gods interaction i.e. turn away from sin, salvation from god. it is not god changing his mind, but responding to our change in attitude
>>68618144
This is yet again another failure to grasp what Christianity - particular Apostolic Christianity that 4chan Christians generally support - actually upholds.
The whole premise relies on God being anthropomorphic and some being. This is not the case as they support Classical Theism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_theism
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/09/classical-theism.html
Yes, Christians have been influenced by the Greeks. But by the Greek philosophers and not Hellenist interpretations of gods.
And here is a link to explain the issue the author makes with omnipotence and immutability.
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/02/dawkins-on-omnipotence-and-omniscience.html
Now get out.
>France saying this
>France
>fucking
>saying
>this
>>68618668
>could it not be our own limits and imperfections that cloud the truth
maybe.
My point being that the God of the Torah does not, at one point claim to be perfect. He claims that what he has created during the six days of creation is "good".
>We dont pray on truths, we pray on mysteries. By doing this we become more divine, as opposed to making Him more human
I agree.
>>68618930
then it's a matter of point of view on the use and interpretation of the term "perfect".
>>68618980
maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that a "perfect god" is an aberration and basically a mistranslation influenced by the greeks.
Ultimately, my point is that the idea of a "perfect" god is unbeleivable to most people, and righteously so, and is an important factor of the rise of atheism.
If the bible had not been mistranslated and influenced by the greeks, maybe more people would have a relationship with the divine today.
>>68619150
The Torah clearly states that, at one point, God regretted having created man.
Since, in your perception, God is outside of time, how could he regret something when he can see that said thing will bring about the desired outcome eventually?
>>68619338
mankind aren't robots, are given the choice of making decisions. if not for the fallibility of man, the consequences of bad actions, how would we comprehend love and forgiveness. this in itself is a perfect creation
>>68619750
>how could he regret something when he can see that said thing will bring about the desired outcome eventually?
You would be wise not to ask such questions.
>>68618311
>and can be summed up in the sentence "I will be what I will be" when asked by Moses who He is.
?
'I will be what I will be' can be interpreted to imply change but it doesn't necessarily imply such a thing. It's only thousands of years later that 'I Am What I Am' is discovered to have relevance to the later Greek idea of a god who's existence is his essence, thus being pure actuality. And the idea of God being perfect meaning being Being Itself has its Greek origin in pre-soc philosophers the article mentions but it isn't until Aristotle that we get the logical elements we need to "I Am What I Am" to be even relevant.
Problem is, Exodus predates Aristotle by a couple hundred years. And it would be even longer before people began to make the connection.
>>68619750
>The Torah clearly states that, at one point, God regretted having created man.
And the Torah is many books of varying genres. Genesis itself is a collection of varying texts. What are you expecting?
>>68620291
you're playing on words.
>>68618518
That would make him omniscient, not perfect.
>>68620532
The Torah is said to come directly from heaven. I am expecting truth.
>>68620616
perfection implies omniscience
>>68620341
Why?
Because I am asking that question.
>>68620631
following the torah and jesus is the real way
>>68620631
You get truth.
Things being truth doesn't say what genre they are expressed in.
The Book of Psalms is literally a book of poetry. The Book of Proverbs is literally a book of proverbs.
You're coming at this wrong. I'd recommend some research into how people seriously examine and view the texts.
>>68620537
you were implying that a perfect being cannot make an imperfect creation, and i'm saying the effect of an imperfect creation is to create a perfect relationship between a creator and his creation through free will
>>68620768
I think you make the mistake of interpreting texts and ideas to create a view of an abstract, impersonnal, mathematical god which is basically the result of greek tought rather than the original God of the Torah.
>>68620875
interesting point of view.
Thanks for sharing.
Argument #1: There are many ancient mythological accounts that parallel the Christian story.
Chesterton’s Response: If a story appears repeatedly in various cultures, might it point to something real?
In J. R. R. Tolkien’s famous stroll with a still skeptical C. S. Lewis, Tolkien made the case that Christianity was the myth that really happened. It was the true myth to which all the other stories were pointing. Tolkien’s logic helped Lewis come to faith. But that line of logic wasn’t new with Tolkien. He was echoing Chesterton’s perspective from two decades before.
> “If the Christian God really made the human race, would not the human race tend to rumors and perversions of the Christian God? If the center of our life is a certain fact, would not people far from the center have a muddled version of that fact?… When learned skeptics come to me and say, ‘Are you aware that the Kaffirs have a story of Incarnation?’ I should reply: ‘Speaking as an unlearned person, I don’t know. But speaking as a Christian, I should be very much astonished if they hadn’t.’”
We learned this shit at 14 when we first got questioned this. Come back when you are older.
>>68621070
this is interesting
By the way, I proposed the creation of /spi/ - spirituality and religion on /q&a/.
If you want a board dedicated to discusssion or spiritual practices and religious texts, come show your support in this thread: >>>/qa/475137
>>68621304
not questionning your own views and getting comfortable in your limited knowledge is the highway to ignorance and close-mindedness.
I'm a jew but I take interest in all religions and point of views.
>>68620973
And you do make the mistake of not examining authoritative views on the matter and making judgements on consistency afterwords.
We could go all day about the use of language in texts but ultimately your view relies on your interpretation being right alone while mine appeals to the authority in both the Christian and Jewish tradition to establish their own understanding of the faith. Given the historical judgements on genre on the texts, your interpretation standing firm is incredibly shaky too, I find.
It's been a good talk but I think I'll end it there and head to bed. Night, man.
>>68621368
No, fuck off. Religion gets into most things and should not be pushed into its own box. /pol/ will have religious discussion with or without /spi/ or /rel/ and is already doing so despite /his/.
>>68621677
My view does not come solely from my interpretation but from the interpretations of all the jewish scholars that I've read.
Good talking with you, good night.
So hello guys, i'm seeing someone claiming that the crusades were all bad and horrors in response to what is happening currently with muslims on a forum
Now of course i'm going to respond him that it happened in a time where everyone was slaughtering each other and that Christianism has managed to change compared to islam, but could you guys tell me exactly what provocated the crusades?
Was it just horrors like he said?
>>68618144
it makes sense. the story of abraham and isaac doesnt need to happen if god is all knowing. no need to test any one if you know everything
knowing everything means you also know all possibilities and results for different courses of action not just every correct scientific historical and mathematical answer
also the story of job and cain and able make no sense with a perfect god and lucifers betrayal seems kinda laughable with a perfect god
