How do I explain to normalfags that understeer is terrifying and oversteer is fun
>oversteer= you see dead coming
>understeer= death is a surprise
>>15196778
>bossing people around by telling them what they should find fun
Kill yourself.
>>15196778
Neither oversteer nor understeer is fun. A neutral setup is fun, because you can get closer to the limit of grip. In setups prone to either oversteer or understeer, i.e. bad setups, one of the axles loses grip long before the other, effectively wasting potential.
Oversteer is preferable in a racecar because you can correct it without having to slow down much, whereas understeer can only be dealt with by braking.
>>15196790
It's the other way round tho.
The only way under steer is ever a problem is if you have no idea how to enter corners
>>15197290
>Braking while understeering
It's almost like you want to continue going straight into that wall, brah. It would be better get off power and just concentrate grip into turning until you get back into the thresh hold. if you're still sliding at that point, you fucked up so back it doesn't matter what you do.
>>15197290
>Oversteer is preferable in a racecar because you can correct it without having to slow down much, whereas understeer can only be dealt with by braking.
I always figured understeer was preferable, as it was more predictable/less likely to kill you.
>>15197376
Understeering into oncoming traffic in a right bend is gonna kill you just as much as oversteering and spinning out. The only advantage of understeer is being able to see where you're going under all circumstances.
The automotive industry says the average driver doesn't intuitively counter-steer into the skid when the back steps out, but instead instinctively brakes and makes it worse. I've never met a single person who didn't counter-steer. I've also never met a person who slammed the brakes when losing traction.
Of course MR2s and DORIFTOO cars are harder to not die in than your average FWD shitbox, but ultimately, a neutral setup that transitions smoothly into a predictable and controllable oversteer, or understeer, depending on the circumstances, will always be better than a setup deliberately prone to understeer, which 90% of production cars to have have, sadly.
>>15197354
if you don't lock your tires it's fine
>>15197419
>The automotive industry says the average driver doesn't intuitively counter-steer into the skid when the back steps out, but instead instinctively brakes and makes it worse. I've never met a single person who didn't counter-steer. I've also never met a person who slammed the brakes when losing traction.
could be the car company's trying to avoid ligation by making the car as retard proof as possible
.ie
the lowest lowest common denominator
>>15197432
Wrong. Even if the tires aren't locked that's using a percentage of the tire for braking as opposed to 100% for grip.
>>15197354
was trying to trail brake out of the under steer bro
>>15196778
there is way less you can do about fwd trying to fuck you over
>>15197456
well if you're going too fast your plunging into a three plus if shift the mass on the front wheels wich might allow you to take back the control of your car
>>15197447
Exactly, even though my mom who doesn't know shit about cars successfully and safely corrected her first oversteer in very bad conditions in a RWD car. They're not making cars overall safer or easier to handle, they only eliminate one chance for absolute retards to fuck up horribly. Which is useless, as they still have a million more ways to turn vehicles into weapons unintentionally.
>>15197456
Shifting the weight towards the front gives you more grip potential.
Why is /o/ always so retarded about basic physics shit?
Of course is a car that is tuned to SLIGHTLY understeer easier to handle for people who are not good at driving.
That's why NORMAL cars usually rather understeer than oversteer.
Fucking hell, just look at a handful of videos on youtube how the average driver reacts to a car slightly oversteering - they go into full panic mode and fuck up big league.
understeer - frustrating shit but better to handle for noobs (they can sway the wheel to all sides all they want, it won't worsen the situation)
oversteer - awesome for drivers who know what the fuck they're doing (noob drivers can easily fuck up by over reacting which they usually do)
>>15197494
>Of course is a car that is tuned to SLIGHTLY understeer easier to handle for people who are not good at driving.
Not slightly, it's HORRENDOUS, my FWD shitbox understeers when I deliberately unsettle the rear and yank the handbrake. Thanks ESC.
>how the average driver reacts to a car slightly oversteering - they go into full panic mode
No they don't. Only the horribly bad drivers do.
>>15197514
>my FWD shitbox understeers
>I drive a shit car therefore all others with that configuration handle the same
>>15197494
also ABS really help for understeer
and since RWD had the reputation to be harder to drive (specially in the rain and snow)
tracion as always been the safer way to drive casually
Solution, CHALLENGE THE APEX/Thread
Posting in a busrider general
>>15197530
>>I drive a shit car therefore all others with that configuration handle the same
>Every car with a shit configuration handles like shit
Yes.
this is the average pleb driving a tail happy car i don't think he was having fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4knaFrW95Y
>>15197447
>could be the car company's trying to avoid ligation by making the car as retard proof as possible
I think it's more of the car companies not giving a fuck about either and just making them as economical as possible, which means an FF setup which will understeer.
>>15197553
t. triggered civiccuck
>>15197717
How does understeer make it economical?
>>15197768
FF makes it economical. Understeer is a common side effect of poor weight distribution and power to the front wheels
>>15197729
sasuga busrider, at least I drive something.
>>15197835
Old minis and VW Corrados and the last Focus RS ddin't understeer as bad as the average shitbox.
>>15197845
>B-BUSRIDER
Quality damage control, anon.
>>15197861
No but those were all meant to satisfy enthusiats to varying degrees. FF cars certainly dont have to plow through every corner but for most manufacturers its the safest bet legally.
The FWD packaging saves weight and allows for more interior space while the inherent understeer protects them from lawsuits.
Cars understeering into trees are people taking corners too fast. Cars sliding backwards into trees are lawsuits, at least in our current sue everyone state of affairs.
>>15197886
Isn't that the title of the thread and why you're here?
>>15196778
>oversteer is fun
It's not.
>>15196778
Correction countersteer is fun
>understeer is terrifying
>lol can't drive
>>15198805
wait THATS countersteering? all this time i thought that's how you're supposed to oversteer.
>>15198877
>>15198907
that's how i always did it. i thought countersteering is a bike terminology.
>>15198816
>oversteer (in a RWD)
>wheels that steer have traction
>wheels that deliver power are sliding
>understeer (in a FWD)
>wheels that deliver power AND steer are sliding
Understeer in a FWD is just a recipe for failure.
>>15199291
At that point, not being able to steer is considered safer than being able to give steering inputs that make everything even worse.
>>15200746
this is the main point with ff
it does not respond to much of anything
not the road or the drivers reckless inputs
the key quick ff is as follows and a bit esoteric and unintuitive
Fent drift - inertial drift
Hand brake - Trail brake
slow in fast out - late apex
lift off over steer - 30 kg in the hatch
power out - rear anti roll bar\the pissing dog
>>15197717
most of the economics of fwd come from compromising the suspension to be as compact as possible
I think the transmission tunnel issue is over blown
If you are good and know your car you can predict the understeer and be less of a scared bitch.
>>15200782
>having to baby front tire grip this hard
![Mercedes_A140_Classic_-_Flickr_-_mick_-_Lumix[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/nEea02j.jpg "Mercedes_A140_Classic_-_Flickr_-_mick_-_Lumix[1].jpg")
>>15200777
The only reason for FWD is having more bootspace in small cars because there's no rear axle/diff. I've studied this in uni and it's a lot easier to just put a driveshaft through the bottom of the car than to cram the entire powertrain into the engine bay. Especially with all the additional shit that's grafted onto engines today and considering that hoods are to be kept short.
Pic related was the holy grail of car design, thank god it wasn't as popular as they expected it to be.
>>15200815
>there's no rear axle/diff.
that space is now filled by fuel tanks and catalytic converters
and a little while ago spare tires
I'm surprised ff does not put the gearbox and diff in the sump of the engine more often
as they don't care about service after first assembly
only that it can be quickly made once
>>15200854
>that space is now filled by fuel tanks and catalytic converters
Or everything, then you get a boot like the corvette, i.e. none.
Am I the only guy on earth that likes driving fwd cars? I mean, not all of them but performance oriented ones are a hoot. Left foot brake balancing it into a skid and flooring it on the way out is hilariously fun.
>>15200878
FWD isn't inherently bad, what manufacturers made them is bad.
>>15200878
as do I but who likes understeer ?
it does not strike one as being very useful unless a wide exit was part of your plan
in terms of inertia minis oversteer very violently due to short wheel base and strange mass distribution
.ie the rear end pivots around the engine rather than being dragged by it
>>15200911
Also I'm pretty sure the mini was the car in which the technique of using brake and accelerator together to shift brake balance to the back was invented and perfected
>>15201302
there were two drivers well known for it
>>15196778
DEJA VU
>>15200911
Understeer is primarily cause by a bad entry. Either by too much speed or a bad angle. Rwd cars can understeer too.
>>15200911
>it does not strike one as being very useful unless a wide exit was part of your plan
spoken like a true busrider
>>15202169
probably the dumbest thing ive read in a few days. what a horrible strawman.
>>15202208
Have you ever driven before? Honest question.
>>15202208
Everything he said is correct. You don't even need to be able to drive to know he's correct.
>>15202295
Have you ever used more than 2 brain cells before? Honest question.
Your argument is so dumb I don't even know how to begin refuting it.
Your corner speed is determined by the characteristics of your handling, not the other way around.
And yes most production stock RWD cars oversteer, the difference is it's not an inherent problem of the drivetrain and thus easier to tune out and completely eliminate.
>>15202380
Apparently in your world all roads are flat, 2 dimensional and have no surface variance.
>>15202380
spotted the guy who was dropped on his head as a child
>>15202349
Obviously, all straw man arguments appear "right" otherwise they wouldn't be good arguing tactics..
The point is the entry characteristics of your setup determine how fast and aggressively you can enter a corner. Not the other way around.
>but if you go into a corner at 100mph instead of 50mph you're gonna fly off the road! see all cars understeer!
Hurr
And, secondly and more importantly, talking about entry when talking about FWD understeer is retarded since it's on-power understeer that's the problem with FWD.
FWD cars don't have problems entering corners, unless they are on power sweepers, they have problems mid corner and corner exit.
>>15202430
>straw man
You keep using that word...
>>15197419
>never met a person who slammed the brakes when losing traction.
They all died
If you ahve fwd car and it starts understeering, the right thing to do would be to step of accelerator and let front wheels get traction since car will jack fowright.
What to do when you are cruising in normal setting with esp asr and all that stuff and your rwd car starts oversteering? Is is better to just let it go, to counter steer like mad, to brake?
Understeer seems better for less expirienced drivers like myself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXSFXPtcrlE
>>15202473
>fowright
foward *facepalm
>>15202473
>Understeer seems better for less expirienced drivers like myself
Understeer is better, period. Not only is it safer for people who don't know what they are doing, but it is faster around a track than oversteer.
>>15198917
well you were wrong all along m8
>>15202404
What at all does this have to do with anything? Lmao
>>15202415
You mean national karting champion? Was a driver for Energy Corse and Birel.
Also the problem just gets worse when you add an LSD to a FWD car.
I mean there's a reason these drivetrains are separated in time attack and balanced with BOP in combined classes. FWD has it's strengths, but they aren't on dry tarmac tracks.
If you can't accept it with the multitude of evidence everywhere, then you're just willfully ignorant or delusional.
>>15202430
>it's on-power understeer that's the problem with FWD.
spoken like a true busrider
>>15202491
>but it is faster around a track than oversteer.
Wrong.. just wrong. Neither of them are good. But oversteer will kill your exit speed and that's more important than entry speed.
>>15202404
>>15202415
>>15202450
>>15202530
lol kids get destroyed by someone who actually knows what they are talking about and resort to single sentence insults. never change /o/
>>15202580
I still don't think this guy has driven before.
He sounds like he's furiously wiki-ing this in another tab to try to confirmation bias his way into sounding.
Rear wheel drive cars can still understeer. I am right, he is wrong. I dont have to prove shit because im not your fucking secretary.
>>15202380
you are just spouting a bunch of bullshit, go back to /b/
Oh look another thread where /o/ doesn't know what is talking about.
Have you ever took your hands of the wheel and the car keeps going in a straight line? Then your car understeers. Period. Even with caster, an oversteering car with no driving input would start to wave back and forwards to the point of total loss of control.
All road cars should be setup to understeer somewhat, both because it's very tiring to have to constantly keep the car from flying off the road and because at high speeds, you simply cannot react fast enough.
Oversteer can be useful to counter polar moment of inertia (i.e, how hard it is to make the car turn), which is what makes the front lose grip when you turn the wheel too quickly, so that would apply simply to very slow tracks (autox) or to transition manouvers.
Discussion on this is stupid because all you have to do to make your car oversteer is to lower the rear tire pressure, even if your car is an understeering pig of an audi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n10tXGnfZW4
And yes, the audi above is an FF car before you drivetrain expertains start looking stupid.
>>15204228
>Rear wheel drive cars can still understeer.
No shit Sherlock. Could it be that uddersteer and ogresteer is nt determined by which wheels are driven!? It can't be!
B-but power-oversteer, a-and power-understeer.
Well fuck, you're not at all supposed to accelerate in a corner anyway. Weight distribution, brake balance and suspension settings are the main determining factors for how your car handles in a corner. Thus, realizing that RWD cars can understeer isn't a very clever observation, it's quite obvious and nobody is refuting it anyway.
>>15207092
You are confusing oversteer/understeer with yaw stability. While they have some impact on each other, they are two very different concepts.
>>15196778
Understeer is way easier to handle than oversteer. That's why you put the better tires in the back.
>>15207113
...No, that is literally what oversteer and understeer are all about, yaw stability. Oversteer means the car turns more than the steering would require (yaw instability), Understeer means the car turns less that the steering tells it to (yaw stability).
The problem is that Understeer and Oversteer does not apply solely to what happens to the car at the edge of adhesion, as many people seem to think. At it's most simplified, you could chart a chart like pic related to describe how the car handles in steady state cornering, but if you did that to a regular car you'd probably find some cars go from understeer to oversteer and back to understeer before they reach the limit of adhesion, or from oversteer to understeer and oversteer again like an old porsche 911. And that's before you start factoring in polar moment of inertia, which makes the car underteer when it gains angular momentum and oversteer when it straightens up.
>>15207117
I would never put the good tires in the back on a FWD
>>15207133
And then you factor in rotational inertia of mid-engined cars and /o/ completely loses track of why MR2s are widow-makers.
Don't expect the autists to understand the physics behind cornering.
>>15207176
Well, to be fair MR2's arent dangerous due to low polar moment of inertia, although that does make drifting them more difficult. The problem they have is that the rear suspension toe control was really bad, other mid engined cars like the matra murena or fiat X1/9 have no such problems.
>>15207200
>Well, to be fair MR2's arent dangerous due to low polar moment of inertia, although that does make drifting them more difficult.
The combination is what made it so uncontrollably tailhappy. The lower the rotational inertia, the lower the required moment to turn/spin the car. Supercars make use of it to get big heavy engines around corners easier, MR2s suffer from it because the suspension can't keep up with how freely the car turns.
>>15200899
Just like RR isn't a bad layout either. The fact that it's used in vintage ecoboxes and old pushthethrottletoomuchandyoullspinoutanddieimmediately porsches doesn't mean it's bad.
FWD is just another way of doing things, its not really any better or worse. The things that fuck up cars is shit like safety, size restrictions, the need for a million airbags etc
my peugeot 206 oversteers much more than it understeers. its not fun in the wet though
>>15207211
should have copied the X1/9 better then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe94_5yzyG4
Does no one test their vehicles hanlding in bad conditions anymore?
First thing I did with both my FWD and RWD shitboxes was once the snow fell I'd go into the industrial area at night and blast the car around the empty trucking lots intentionally losing control of the car to get a feel for the handling and how to get it back into control.
That way when the car loses control on regular roads you have an idea of what it feels like and how to get back into control without fucking up.
>>15207719
that's actually intelligent. on /o/. have a cookie
>>15197915
>original mini
>satisfy enthusiasts
Nigga the mini was made to be a city car and nothing more until the 1275gt and cooper came along
>>15207719
>Does no one test their vehicles hanlding in bad conditions anymore?
No, the general cuckoldery of ABS, TCS, Avoidance systems are ruining our ability to actually drive a car. I live on a hill, and it snows here often. The intersection at the bottom of the hill is always iced over; due to these fucks. "hey, I'll just shitcan the brakes and let ABS do the work...." As they slide through the intersection, their brake pedal pulsing away under their foot. Conversely, "I have this hill to get up, I'll just mash the gas and TCS will get me up it!"
Car manufacturers have >implied that these systems "Make driving safe", when in reality it just produces pedal mashers who over rely on the systems to save their asses in shit weather. It's the reason why we all see those soccer moms in the SUV's in the ditch.
>>15208006
>It's the reason why we all see those soccer moms in the SUV's in the ditch.
Without nannies and with cars that deliver proper feedback through the pedals, wheel and seat, you'd see even more soccer moms in SUVs in ditches, but after a while you'd see less soccer moms in SUVs in general, and eventually no soccer moms on the road at all.
>>15207719
>does no one have fun anymore?
???
correcting on snow is easy everything happens twice as slowly.
its like putting a video game on slow motion.
>>15204228
>>15207052
The amount of idiocy on this board is staggering.
>>15207223
It's inherently worse. You're just fucking stupid and have no idea what you're talking about. It has the least amount of potential of any layout. EVERYONE knows this already. The only people who want to deny it are idiots on /o/.
>>15207092
>Have you ever took your hands of the wheel and the car keeps going in a straight line? Then your car understeers. Period.
Autism.
It's not a fucking complicated physics calculation. Either the car has grip or doesn't.
You can be loose on entry and tight on exit
You can be tight on exit and loose on entry
Either the car is responsive at ___ speed or it isn't.
A car doesn't just do one thing. Set ups don't tackle a problem as a whole, they break it down into portions of the corner and types of corner.
Most autistic reductionist view of something I've ever read. The problem with le epic science explanations of this shit is that they are always coming from people that have zero track experience.
>>15208266
>It's not a fucking complicated physics equation
Yeah, automotive handling is certainly nothing complicated enough to be worth writing books and books on the subject.
Without sarcasm, grip=/= from handling. Even if the car is within the limits of grip, you still feel understeer or oversteer. Just try changing the speed while keeping the sterring wheel in a fixed turning position, the turning circle will change a lot even if you have plenty of lateral grip in reserve.
It's exacty because it's such a complicated problem that you have to break it down into lots and lots of simple parts to even start to tackle it.
And calling something simple "le epic science" just shows how little you understand what you're doing. Fortunatly for drivers, most of them don't actually need to, but they won't be the ones actually setting up the car.
>>15208429
>within the limits of grip, you still feel understeer or oversteer
Understeer and oversteer is the loss of grip at the front or rear. You can't lose grip within the limits of grip.
>the turning circle will change a lot
Slip isn't the same as losing traction. Squaling tires doesn't mean you're sliding.
>>15208454
he's using this >>15207133 definition of oversteer.
>>15207098
rwd cars can understeer under power
>>15197432
>what is abs
>>15208472
>>>15207098 (You)
>rwd cars can understeer under power
>>15207098
>realizing that RWD cars can understeer isn't a very clever observation, it's quite obvious
>>15202430
Fwd can power oversteer though.
>>15196256
In this case, this was done by using the brake to lock the inside wheel, but any LSD does the same to more or less effect. And no, the steel rear wheels don't make it spin from a complete stop.
>>15196778
>>15208597
oh okay, so the reason you started posting ITT was you just wanted to let us know FWD can understeer under power?
>>15197581
Mini.
>>15197581
>>15197530
This thinking is why "car enthusiasts" think FWD is bad. They are use to driving bad not for performance FWD and think that's just how all FWD drives.
