/pog/ - Porsche General
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>necro general, immortal badge of honor and pride edition
It's that time once again, at last... once more. Talk about the pride of Stuttgart, /pog/gots!
I'm here
944.
Good car, bad car?
What engine options did it have, any known issues with any of these?
Does the car have documented problems? Are they a cunt to work on?
>>15020219
Good car when it works.
Was available in multiple flavors of Porsche-built 4-banger, with or without boost.
Many many parts will break and have to be fixed/replaced, have at least a grand ready at any and all times to be sure.
Galvanized body means rust isn't a major problem though, which is nice.
It's an '80s German car, not a total nightmare to work on but not last-few-cylinders-hidden-under-the-cowl hard to work on either.
>>15020219
Very good car, anon. Same goes for the 924S, which is just the 944 on a 924 body.
>tfw wanted a silver 911 carrera 996 ever since i watched gone in 60 seconds
>>15020615
you posted this before.
also aim higher
>>15020950
i would just be happy with a silver 911 carrera 996. the design is nice as it is without spoilers etc.
>clutch starting to slip
I just bought this thing too
>>15023909
Maybe you should get some jackstands, stop being a little bitch, and replace it.
hngg
>>15020235
>>15020510
Alright thanks guys, I'm looking to get something a bit more spirited for my next car and I've always had a thing for the 944.
I'm more than capable of maintaining the thing I was just curious as to whether it suffered from the "German engineering" issues most other stuff did.
They go for pretty damn cheap here, so even if I buy a total shitter it won't be too big of a fuck up.
It'll be some time before I get the dollars together to buy one though, well, insure one I should say!
>>15024462
DICK LEVELS CRITICAL
MUST FORCE PURGE OR RISK DANGER TO MANIFOLD
>>15023909
>afterstock 996 / Boxster wheels
No surprise the clutch is bad, the previous owner must have done a number on that poor thing. Get it fixed, anon.
>>15024472
Sure, just don't cheap out all that much, generally the ones under 3k have been abused to hell. You might get lucky and find a real bargain (there was an anon that got a nearly flawless model for some absurd ~800 dollars, middle red 944 in the OP pic) but most of the times it's worth paying extra for extra care.
Why have I suddenly opened up to the idea of a 993 cab?
>>15024472
>"German engineering" issues
I'm not sure what those might be, but the only really specialized thing to deal with is the early Bosch motronic system. The cars are getting old so shit happens. Besides that and keeping tabs on your timing belt/water pump schedule I would say it's the same as dealing with any 30 year old sports car.
>>15024711
yeah those are genuine Cup II all right
>must have done a number on that poor thing
explain.
should I replace them? go back to non-staggered?
>>15020615
>>15020950
I aim to sell my Boxster and get a 996 C4S next year, I figured I'm already so familiar with the M96 engine
>>15024462
now that's fucking neat
>>15026111
>dat color palette
10/10 photography.
So I just found out that an oil separator failure can mimic the symptoms of a blown head gasket... after getting the head gaskets replaced
Joy to the world
>>15028389
Yo wtf, im in the middle of a head gasket replacement right now. What car is this and how do i test mine. Symptoms??? Fug
>>15028476
It's a 986, a failed oil separator can let off huge, white smoke bombs apparently
When the engine is running check to see if you can take the oil cap off easily or if there's a vacuum holding it down. You can also take out the dipstick and listen for a sucking sound
I figured white clouds was coolant getting into the combustion chamber, but after getting the gaskets replaced the oil separator still gave me those problems
I found out when I checked the oil cap for a vacuum
It's a $70 part you can change out yourself too
So guys, I have a 2007 Cayman S. I dropped it with springs and got an alignment, however my toe out is absurd at like .50+ degrees. My PSM is throwing a code now. Would these two be related? not my cayman
>>15028592
> also, I purchase a adjustable toe link to rectify this issue. Should be coming in friday
should i buy?
http://cargur.us/8vr89
>>15028610
>Panamera
Fuck no.
>>15020199
AYY WE BACK I CAN SHITPOST ABOUT MY SHITBOX AGAIN
Went through the drive through and forgot I don't have cupholders. good thing I have no door cards.
Do you like the Panamera?
>>15029039
Honestly though I'm loving every second i'm behind the wheel of this thing. Gave two friends rides and they loved it as well. Haven't seen someone not smile when I show it off.
>>15028610
>V6
nope
>>15028845
Panamera is good u cuck
>>15029077
Whats wrong with the v6?
>>15028497
Do 944s have an oil speparator? Are they in all cars like am i retarded
>>15029065
I like the panamera anon
>>15029328
I have no idea, I'm really only familiar with the M96 engine
There are some mentions about an oil separator for the Turbos, but that's it
Check emissions parts on Rockauto for your car
>>15029821
Damn, it looks likes the early 944s have an AOS too. I'll look into the testing after i get my head gasket replaced as the replacement is already 60% done. Thanks for the post qt
>>15029920
Np bby
>>15029920
the AOS on a 944/1 is the base of the oil filler tube at the back of the engine. Not the same as the 986 but can still be suspect. Also oil cooler seals can cause a mix of oil/coolant. Good Luck!
in other news
>be me
>sick w/cold, call out of work
>shop calls "hey anon, your trailing arms are done"
>been a month
>pick them up
>"holy shit i might be able to drive my car tonight"
>spend day putting everything back together
>feeling like a boss
>a snotty, medicine headed boss
>sun is setting, hurriedly finish and put on wheels
>start up, back out of garage, head around the block
>clunk
>clunk clunk
>clunk
>carefully come back home, park in the garage and start fiddling around looking for loose stuff
>too lazy to remove wheel
>give up and figure i'll sort it out tomorrow
> :(
>couple hours later
>sitting in bed talking to gf
>like a shit-tornado it hits me
I forgot to tighten the fucking caliper mount bolts. By not removing the wheel after the initial test I couldn't see that they were loose. It's far too late to go tighten them now so I'll still be doing them in the morning, but so happy it's something simple.
i guess the moral is double check everything and avoid wrenching on meds.
>>15030148
If mess impair you that much avoid doing anything serious on them
>>15028320
Thanks! I think it's the best car-related shot I've taken. No post work done at all.
>>15031821
I don't even know what I typed in the morning anymore and why it turned into that
>>15032501
hah that's alright i think i understood it
might be getting a 911 sc, around 30k used. any known issues? I know that many swap the tranny in favor of the g50 in the older models. similar aftermarket changes are done to the airbox and timing chain, but I was wondering if these were in anyway inherently flawed
Thanks!
Is it possible to get a pre-996 911 for around 20k or should I be looking to spend much more than that?
>>15028592
Co'Stance'za
>>15034375
Spend much more than that unless it was set on fire or you have a time machine
>>15020235
How about the parts, are they individually expensive?
>>15034445
can't you get a 964 in ok condition for that price?
>>15034543
I couldn't find a single air cooled 911 for under 40k in Canada, the only cheap 911s are the 996s
And I hope to God they stay cheap at least until the end of next year
>>15034543
The 964 generally starts at 40k, sadly. Perhaps you can find a slightly beat up 80s Targa on that budget though, I did stumble upon a rare few under 20k.
>>15034596
they're one of the overall worst porsches ever made so I assume they will
>>15034623
>worst Porsches ever made
That's a huge over statement but keep spreading the IMS horror stories, it keeps the cars cheap
Man, I love depreciation. Realized I can pick up a Cayman S from ~2008 for under $30k. I think it'll be the perfect daily when I replace my current one next year.
>>15034644
Whats you insurance like premiums?
>>15034696
Not him buts it's a $30k car normally driven by old men, it should be cheaper to insure than an S2000 or an STI
>>15034623
>they're one of the overall most important porsches ever made
FTFY. Also hoping they don't appreciate until the next decade.
>>15034696
Haven't looked into it yet, but I'm planning to consolidate cars. I've got three currently so I'm hoping to at least net out if I go down to just one car.
>>15034461
Well they're Porsche parts, so expect above average costs and below average availability.
There are some specialized part stores, though.
>>15034821
Fun fact, the 996 is mechanically almost the same as the 997.1
The new car just looks prettier
>Porsche thread on 10th page
Not on my fucking watch, Stuttgartbros.
>>15034248
Miss Piggy is second best racing livery, only after pic related.
What porsche is this
>>15038124
968 with the headlight delete kit
>yfw porsches are now being made by mudslimes
>>15038787
Am I supposed to be mad at that? I frankly don't have anything against muslims in general (>inb4 hurr durr fuckin eurocuck check out /pol/ to get redpilled xDD), but even if I did, has the quality of Porsches ever decayed because of them?
>inb4 the muslims are to blame for the Panamera and the SUVs
I went to Stuttgart and visited the Porsche Museum while I was in Germany. I picked up a new 2014 BMW 550i corporate lease for myself at the time. Porsches are way too fucking expensive, even to lease. I got a real boner for them, though. Want a 991 GT3 :[ Got to drive one on the Las Vegas Motorway a couple weeks ago with Dream Racing :D
Anyway, when I got to the underground parking at Stuttgart, they just leave their museum cars down there sometimes. There was a GT2 RS just sitting there in a designated parking spot. I parked right fucking next to a Carrera GT -.-
Unreal the cars they have there.
>>15038124
FC RX7 with a body kit
>>15038974
This guy gets it
>>15039091
DESIGNATED
PARKING
SPOTS
>>15034623
Can you even expand upon this, or is it just something you've seen posted on 4chan?
>>15039646
No it's a thing, people bitches about the 996 because if the infamous IMS issue which really isn't an issue anymore and because it "killed the air cooled 911s"
Truth is the IMS problems really aren't problems anymore since it only affected a small percentage of low mileage cars
The 996 set the standard for modern 911s, kind of like what the C4 Corvette did for future 'vettes
>>15020235
>Many many parts will break and have to be fixed/replaced, have at least a grand ready at any and all times to be sure.
that sounds like owning any car ever.
>>15039696
Yup, exactly. The maintainace costs are at a slight premium over non luxury brands. No worse than owning a Mercedes or BMW.
People are spoiled by Toyotas and Hondas though. In those they can neglect regular maintainance and not really get fucked over immediately for doing so.
>>15039922
People also don't take into consideration what regular maintenance is for their cars
My mom's Accord need an oil change every 5000-10000kms depending on how the oil life computer feels, but my Boxster needs one every 24000kms
You can twist this and say Porsches need a new set of tires every other time you change he the oil and it wouldn't be wrong, but it'll make the cars look like money pits to normies when in reality you're just getting a new set of performance tires at like ~50000kms
DESIGNATED
PARKING
>>15040406
As a Lexus lube monkey I find this hilarious, the IS and RC eat through tires like nobodies business, nice to know even Porsches last longer lmfao
SPOTS
Bumping with German Engineering™
>>15041997
I've had a 996 since 2013 and I don't think I've ever stuck my key in there.
>>15042169
I have a Boxster, so I lock it up. Turns out it's total bullshit
Also chink LEDs make the interior look nicer than it really is
>>15034716
My $60k+ 2013 991 is cheaper to insure than my 2015 STI was, by a considerable amount. My 2002 S2000 was reasonable, I assume because they undervalue it so heavily (valued at $8k, sold it for $17k to buy the 991). Demographics really make a huge difference.
>>15044210
Have 991s really dropped down to $60k?
>>15044074
>all that discolored plastic
what the fuck anon
respray that shit
>>15044318
Looks like base model 991s are starting at $55k from random used car lots, $66k with CPO warranty from a dealership.
Mine was advertised for $69k, I bought it for just over $62k, though it has more options than anything under $75k on the market currently.
I need to stop looking at the used car locator, eventually I'll find something that makes me feel like I didn't wait long enough.
>>15046333
I would but I don't care enough about this car. Maybe when I decide sell it I'll fix up the interior for better first impressions
My crew rolls colorfully.
>>15046883
God damn I forgot they're already 5 years old
>>15020199
What are people's thoughts and feelings about replica Porsche? Anyone ever own one?
>>15049297
I'd get something like a replica 550 Spyder, apparently if you go for an original VW flat 4 it'll cost as little as $18k
>>15047966
>356 in British racing green
I nearly came. That tone just fits any classic car in existence so well.
>>15051861
I have to agree, check out the interior!
What of they made the 911 mid engined instead? Would the Cayman be the top dog with the big engines and would the 4 seater 911 be the entry level car with the weaker engines?
>>15053007
1. They won't. I know people are going crazy with the thought of the purpose-built RSR having the engine pushed a few inches forward to squeeze the transmission in between it and the rear bumper, but that thing shares so little with even the GT3, I can't see any geometry changes making their way to the street car.
2. The 911 will always be their top of the line sports car. Porsche tried to replace it with the 928, did not catch on. They've got 54 years of history to live up to, and generations of fans and owners that would go ape-shit.
>>15053319
>>15053007
Damn, I meant back in '64 they made the 911 with the engine in the middle
>>15053397
It's hard to say the 911 would have remained a 2+2 if it was a mid-engine layout. Even if there was a MR 2+2 911, there would always be room for an entry level 2 seater model like the 914.
>>15051939
>BRG with brown interior
ffs anon, stahp, I can only cum this much. An E-Type on that same exact color combo has always been a childhood dream of mine, and it really does look amazing on a 356.
bump
I'm young. I'm poor. I want a Cayman because it's literally the sexiest thing around.
Some day.
>>15055300
Save money and one day you'll get there. A used Cayman is like the cost of a new Accord, so it isn't out of the question
And they're fairly reliable to own and drive every day to boot
>>15055413
This, Caymans are actually viable daily drivers. You'll have one someday, Anon.
>>15055413
>>15055445
>>15055300
What this anon said. Grind hard, they are bound to depreciate throughout the next decade.
>>15055527
My son is a huge car enthusiast and loves Porsche, do you think the 2007-08 Cayman would make a good first car, provided he has some wrenching experience?
>>15055842
I'd actually recommend something like a first gen Boxster, similar car buy they're dirt cheap so when he bangs it up (he's gonna bang it up one way or another) it won't hurt too much
They're similar cars but he'll get a good feel for it first, both wrenching wise and driving wise, then he upgrade to a nice Cayman S once he's comfortable
>>15055940
Gonna second this, make sure the IMS issue is addressed and you'll have a damn nice car.
>>15055977
Any car over 40k miles that wasn't a garage queen should be good on the IMS
Common things to watch out for are water pump failures, replace the OEM pump that has a plastic impeller with an aftermarket one with a metal impeller, and the oil separator that can look like a blown head gasket
No mods are awake bump.
>>15057007
Why hasn't anyone found Alphonse and Corey yet and shot them?
>>15057055
>hopes and dreams
one day anon, one day.
bump with a pic of my dad in is old 996, he's since upgraded to a 997S.
oh and this bad boy
>>15057616
996 and C5 in the same picture, both cars I'm considering upgrading to
I made it into the Mustang general collage, try to spot me
>>15054417
>>15057684
looks early 00's as fuck
so comfy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUpZLgtpPCA
Oh God
>tfw can't afford to go spec racing
Where can I get new hydraulic struts for the rear hatch on my 944? I can't seem to find them on either 944online or pelican parts. Or could I just use any strut that is the proper size?
Pic related
>>15063377
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IBMPFTA/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687562&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B007RUOJYO&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1KBK1EMP44F8G0X7XYBK
>>15063464
Sheeeeeiiiiiit
>>15063464
Lmao amazon always has stupidly hard to find stuff. I use that and pelican for everything i need
>>15064645
pelican
944online
paragon-products
suncoast porsche
>>15065731
>>15049297
My dad owns a speedster replica
It's pretty nice if you get over the fact its a replica and will never own a real speedster.
His is a similar color to that one, but darker and on fuchs.
even better, you won't feel bad when you modify the puny beetle engine to output more power.
>>15066872
I never really liked this color
>>15066872
The color is interesting, but oh god, those obnoxious chrome rims. That's really unfortunate, it would have been a fine Carrera otherwise.
>>15066655
>>15066728
About time you showed up, red 996 guy.
Sadly only photo i got atm of 944. 928 is also in posession, but not pictured.
>>15020199
Thinking of getting a better paying job to save up for a 996 C2 to compliment my shark.
This a good idea, Porschefriends?
>>15069965
forgot pic of muh 28
anybody want to trade wheels? I have a set of Cup II from a 993 on my 944
>>15070281
Why would you give up those wheels?
>>15069965
If you can afford it, I don't see why not
I want to get a 924
I know the 944 has a better engine but I just like the 924 better
924S are pretty much unobtainable or cost so much that I could go for a 928 anyways.
Can you give me general advise on a 924?
I'm in europe so they're 3k€+ with at least 100k km
>>15070542
tires are expensive
kind of wide for a non-turbo as well
>>15070567
How wide are we talking about?
>>15070561
924 has a VW van engine
>>15070575
Audi engine, no?
>>15028320
>>15031980
imagine if the gap between the cars was exactly as wide in the shot as the glass part of the building in between
I wouldn't be able to contain my boner
>>15070590
It was used in an entry level Audi from the 70s as well, but back then they were just German Saab
Still a VW van engine
>>15070607
Perfect candidate for an Audi i5 swap, then.
Find a 924 with a blown engine, an old Audi, and source some bits from other places to make it all fit. I'd do it.
>>15070624
Now there's an idea
>>15070629
http://www.944-20v.nl/
This is interesting. Someone 20v swapped a 944, using a 924 Turbo bellhousing.
>>15070575
>>15070590
Audi 100 engine according to wikipedia
if it's reliable I don't mind. 125hp is okay as well, but I'd obviously rather have the 924S or a 924 turbo. the S i simply too expensive (getting a 944 and engine swapping would be cheaper) right now and the 924 turbo have issues I've read.
>>15070624
wow, now that's an idea I could get behind. My fathers audi 100 had an incredibly smooth engine which he still praises today.
>>15070575
7" or 7.5" in front
9" in rear, on 245s
>>15070692
That's only about an inch wider than the smallest wheels that came on my Boxster
>>15069977
Nice. What year is that?
>>15068625
For whatever reason I keep missing these threads.
986 and 996 owners can use this hack to enable their fog lights to be used as DRLs
Super useful for Canadian cars that use the low beam as DRLs from the factory and burn the lens
https://sites.google.com/site/996drlhack/
>>15071901
Oh look, it's the classic remark every normie will give you when you're driving something that's not a poverty spec econobox.
>>15071904
don't worry they just project their own insecurity
do unto others as they have done to you
>>15071904
Jealousy is for the mentally deficient
>>15071901
Honestly, Porsches, at least 911s/Caymans are the least small-dick sports car there is except maybe the Miata (nobody thinks they're cool for driving one but god damn they're great to drive). They drive VERY well, are incredibly reliable, still come in manual and aren't really flashy or loud,
>Summer time in Phoenix.
Time to sacrifice Horse Power to the Air Conditioning gods
>>15072758
At least you have working AC
>>15072785
It's basically a requirement to live in this sand blasted hellscape
>>15020199
Chances of seeing one of these on the road? Swear on mi nan I followed one....
I'm guessing it was some sort of kit car? In actual love of this car now
>>15075419
Like the actual race car or just the slant nose?
>>15075419
its possible
>>15075419
Exactly the same. Ive been looking at slant noses ever since I saw it and nothing has come close. It had a square rear so it rules out every slant nose I've ever seen
>>15075430
....yes? Not the biggest porches fan but I know how rare those bad boys are. It was white though... that's why I'm thinking it was some sort of kit car but I can't find anything related to it
>>15075419
It's possible
once in a classic car event in vienna, i saw a fucking 917.
Stupid threads are clogging up the first few pages bump.
>>15079417
These are always cool to see.
>>15079431
youre always cool to see
>>15080164
Y-you too
>>15080171
:)
>>15083620
Those Turbos are scary fast
bump cuz I'm in the shed
>>15086181
Looks comfy af for some reason :3
My 931
I replaced the ignition system with an Edis 4 that I'm going to run off a Megasquirt. The car is running on the fix 10 degree BTDC of the Edis, I just need to get a laptop to create a map and load it into the Megasquirt.
>>15087360
>Megasquirt
gud thread guys, have a pic, its all ive got. Im looking at getting a porsche soon, not a 944, but maybe a 996 or a 986 or a 987
>>15087360
I also added a manual boost controller plugged into the top port of the dual port wastegate.
The wastegate is the same as on the 930, it's one big mahfucker. I had a surprise when I cracked it open. I knew I was boosting more then stock.
>>15087370
>not knowing what you're talking about
I have a 944S that needs a respray. Guards Red. Red's not my favorite color but it looks good on the car. I was thinking of going a tad darker but not full-on burgundy or maroon. Any suggestions?
>>15087380
It's just a funny name, anon
>>15087263
Pretty comfy, was watching james May's the reassembler while adjust my rear alignment :3
>>15087360
I always get them mixed up, the 931 uses the vw/Audi engine as a base or the Porsche 4 banger?
Regardless... Badass build man
>>15087384
I'll megasquirt ur mum m8
>>15087387
The vw/Audi van engine. The bottom end is bulletproof but the heads flow shit, it still has decent potential. Will be converting to EFI once I know the Ignition is good.
I'll be taking the 911 out of storage this weekend and replacing the stock heat-exchangers/exhaust with these bad boys.
>>15020199
>>15087382
Do it this color,
Porsche burgundy I forget the name
>>15087435
Durrrrrrrr sorry
>>15087435
>Porsche burgundy
Oh loooord
>>15087440
Beautiful color. Would definitely consider it, maybe something a little lighter though.
Found a paint reference website:
http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?manuf=Porsche&con=m
>>15087440
>>15087440
*
>>15087360
Nice, good to see a 924 around here for a change. IMHO, the 944 series is possibly the most solid and well-known iteration of the chassis, but the 924 is the proud gramps that started it all.
>>15087434
>tfw supercars will never be badass again
>>15087696
I also have an '81 Weissach edition that I'll be selling once the Turbo is up and running reliably.
>>15087473
unf
My baby
>>15034596
>tfw when I bought mine 4 years ago for $11k
Canada too.
>>15090792
>>15090800
>>15090806
>>15090816
Beautiful, anon.
>>15090943
Damn how'd I miss this, also gorgeous
>>15090792
>>15090800
Thought it couldn't get any better
>>15090806
until you showed dat interior, what a goddamn masterpiece. It has "cool" written all over it, gg.
>>15090816
Whoa, you still have it anon? That looks pretty sleek.
>>15090943
If only I had $11k lying around when I graduated high school
Yo, I've heard some anons saying that the first gen Boxster is actually less reliable than the 944. What's up with that?
Pizza Porsche!
>>15092767
They're idiots, probably just IMS memes
Boxsters are newer cars and share parts with cars as new as the 997.1, so parts availability is already much better than the 944
And the newer Porches score pretty high in the reliability ratings, you just have to take care of them
I bought this 1981 924 for 800 Biggest mistake i have made. This thing has been a night mare one issue to the next, mostly all electrical issues. from the starter to headlight motor to ignition switch, blowing fuses. My other mistake was putting another 800 to fix the old issues just to give me new ones. I'm still trying to sell this car to this day.
How would you guys rank the different porches, best to worst?
>>15095520
You bought an $800 car, what did you expect?
>>15095783
Favourite Porsche sportscar > Porsche branded VW
>>15093407
what car is this
>>15095845
The new Porsche 718
>>15095856
its highly aesthetic
>>15095873
>>15095845
It's a 911
>>15098301
2017 991.2 911 Carrera S Cabriolet to be a bit more specific.
bumping with this sweet 911 I spotted
>>15093407
i approve of this blue
20/20 hindsight, the satisfaction of this obscure joke is not worth the trouble of trying to explain it to normies.
>>15100299
checkt and kekt
>>15100231
Is that the new 991? Looks really sleek.
>>15100299
Checked, although you should have been slightly more patient and claimed post >>15100944 instead. Also, congrats for rare color.
Dads 911, hes kind enough to let me drive it all the time. Love that car.
>>15100712
I tried convincing my dad to get a 911 since he likes driving my Boxster so much, but he wanted an SUV because of his bad leg
Managed to convince him to get an S Class instead
>>15100729
Yeah my dad always wanted a 911. This is his second 911, stupid car prices in Finland keeping the 991 away.
914 here. Always getting cucked by real porsches
>>15070926
Thank.
1986, 5 speed
>>15101744
How is that not a real Porsche? Rarer as hell and shit
>>15101856
The whole 914 vs 914-6 argument
Live.
>>15101781
she's a beauty anon.
looking to find me a 944 in june, the models i've seen on the net so far aren't too shabby, but prices have inflated holy shit, decent ones start at 9k€
>>15101889
Guess the 718s aren't real Porsches either, old and new
>>15106172
that is a very angry miata
>walk into your 914
>see these two qt3.14s sunbathing on top of it
What do, anon?
