Why?
Why not?
Because fuck you, that's why
>>48077240
This card is amazing. What the hell are you whining about?
>>48077260
Maybe he's asking why the picture is so small?
>>48077240
suck my ant dick OP
>>48077240
Do you know how to evaluate cards? She's pretty great.
>>48077260
I think he's asking why it's GWB instead of Mono Blue
>>48077240
We already have this thread: >>48065826
>>48077260
>card is amazing
>will see no competitive play in Standard or Modern
>mono-U made Bant just because they had to shoehorn in Jace
...
>>48077370
>will see no competitive play in Standard or Modern
What are "Things said about Nahiri as well" for 500, Alex.
>>48077370
I'm pretty sure she'll see play in both.
I'm just happy that tamiyo is a card(again).
>>48077319
>>48077433
>>48077444
>/tg/ is bad at magic
We don't have to make it THAT obvious. Fuck.
>>48077240
Because they can't have other mono-blue planeswalkers because Jace is mono-blue and we need a new Jace every six months.
>>48077695
There are 2 different mono-blue Jaces in Standard but WotC didn't give a shit about that.
>>48077714
And 2 different Nissas, Gideons, Chandras and (soon) Lilianas, but you don't give a shit about that.
>Doubling Season into permanent Omniscience
>>48077240
Because she researches fields
>>48077240
Because I needed a planeswalker for my Derivi tap shenanigans deck and this chick is perfect.
>>48077892
>>48077491
>>48077693
Cool, I'll pick her up cheap because you scrubs can't see value.
>>48077695
You know, its posts like these that remind me most players would rather see Jace than Tami
>>48077240
When did she get green and white though? If anything wasn't Tamiyo like a Vulcan in Star Trek and concerned only about data and data itself? She's more blue than Jace is.
>>48077321
>>48077370
>>48078631
No, not only about data. She also cares about preservation of natural undisturbed conditions and order; read the stories they write. She was all set to put Jace in a pine box if he threatened to take Innistrad's madness off the plane.
>>48078748
That makes her even less white then doesn't it?
>>48078764
No, because a concern for the preservation of order at all costs is definingly white.
>>48078777
But she's not trying to preserve order, she's trying to observe what the madness is and what's causing it, no matter what sacrifices have to be made.
>>48078819
She's trying to preserve order outside Innistrad by containing the madness to the plane, by killing Jace if necessary; that's white.
>>48078472
>I'll get a new planeswalker for cheap because no one can actually use her in their decks
>>48078670
>this is now valid card design philosophy
Fug
Honestly I know they need five monocolored walkers for their dumbass gatewatch, but jace is UW and tamiyo should totally be pure U
>>48078940
Cryptolith Rite? Oath of Nissa?
>>48078940
>>48077491
>>48077693
Maybe not in Modern, but she is definitely going to say play in Standard. Fits right in Bant Humans.
>>48078883
Wait, when was that established? She's trying to keep the madness in place on Innistrad because she's studying it. She never said anything about saving other planes from it.
>>48078956
What decks actually want to use Oath of Nissa and Tamiyo though? Bant Company doesn't need or want her because she fucks up tempo and card advantage for worse card advantage.
>>48078990
How? What does she add that Humans don't already have?
>>48078670
>only six Planeswalkers in SOI block
There goes my dream for a new Tibalt
>>48079014
>>How? What does she add that Humans don't already have?
A good and useful planeswalker? Taps down blockers for two turns, draw cards, how it that not useful?
>>48079014
>She never said anything about saving other planes from it.
READ THE FUCKING STORY ASSHOLE. http://magic.wizards.com/node/1020261
>>48079014
Consistent card draw that you don't need to pay 2 for. Makes attacking into Bant even less fun because it's just combat damage, not just damage to the opponent.
>>48079080
But that's not the same. Are you being willfully obtuse?
>>48079036
She doesn't do anything blue doesn't already do in Standard.
>>48079084
The card draw comes at the cost of Tamiyo so it's likely only going to net you 2 cards before it goes away. 1UWG for 2 cards is hardly worth slotting into a deck that's already quite strong.
>>48079126
>Card draw comes at the cost of her
No? Even if they are somehow able to push 5 damage through that's 5 damage going to Tamiyo and not you.
>>48078940
Blue cares about returning cards, green cares about artifact removal and white cares about enchantment removal.
Therefore, Reduce to Dreams could be given a mana cost of 1GWU or GWU instead of 3UU.
This is the era of card design we live in.
>>48077240
>How to trigger autism
>>48079126
You: "She never said anything about saving other planes from it."
Tamiyo: "If driven mad, the damage you could do across the planes would be immense"
EAT HOT LEAD YOU STUPID COMMIE COCKSUCKER.
>>48079126
>But that's not the same. Are you being willfully obtuse?
>>"No, I understand, but..." Jace stopped suddenly. It had taken him a few moments to realize that she had just threatened him. He raised his palms, and took a step back.
>>>she had just threatened him
this isn't even subtext
this is just text
>>48079175
She said Jace's telepathy might make him take on the madness and his ability to planeswalk while mad might cause harm. That's not the same as saying she wants to keep the madness preserved on Innistrad for the purpose of keeping other planes safe from it. At all. Get your autism under control, you extra-chromosome-having goober.
>>48079228
Shut the fuck up, you goddamn nigger.
>>48079228
>and his ability to planeswalk while mad might cause harm
Correction: might spread it to other worlds.
Read up in the story.
>a thought she had not considered—if a Planeswalker contracted this plane's madness, could they spread it to other worlds?!
>a mad planeswalking telepath was a danger of the sort she had never contemplated.
>>48077433
>>48078472
My god. Nahiri pretty much revived the "THIS IS THE NEXT FtMS!" hype. Why do planeswalkers attract such shitters?
>>48078670
Planeswalkers are cancer.
>>48079276
>she never thought of the danger
>she wanted to stop a problem she never considered before she ever considered it
Come on, guys.
>>48079242
Oh gee, you sure showed him. I bet he's going to quietly tuck his tail between his legs and be quiet.
Pft. You're a cute kid, anon.
>>48079337
After rapidly calculating it, she comes to the conclusion that she will act against it. Yes, she is very blue, but there's shades of white in there.
>>48079347
This guy is the reason people hate you mentally ill faggots. You get an idea in your head out of complete ignorance and no matter how much evidence is brought which proves it was wrong you keep fucking doubling down no matter what; the only way it would end is if someone caved your fucking faces in; you utterly retarded pigfuckers. Every goddamn thread there is some useless piece of shit who does this; maybe it's the same guy; maybe it's not, but it is a fucking epidemic on this board to ignore new information in favor of idiotic shit you chose to believe ex nihilo. Fuck you.
>>48079353
But her intent clearly wasn't to keep the madness in place on Innistrad to prevent it from spreading to other planes. That's just objectively wrong. She didn't even think that was possible until Jace strolled up. She was only interested in studying it. She doesn't care about fight evil, as is made perfectly clear by her refusal to join the other Superfriends.
>>48079418
>I can't read!
>but you're wrong because I'm angry! And EDGY!
>>48079451
I can read; you are a pigfucking cocksucker, who, when presented with the text in black and fucking white; with the relevant portion WHCH GOES TO MOTIVE ON THE ACTION IN QUESTION highlighted YOU FUCKING IGNORE IT BECAUSE YOU WANT TAMIYO TO BE BLUE.
SHUT THE FUCK UP.
>>48079451
It wasn't her initial goal in coming to Innistrad but she clearly made it a part of her task if she would threaten Jace over it.
>>48079418
Wow! So many curse words! Welcome to our secret club! Hope you have fun during the summer!
>>48079504
Shut up, you fucking nigger; I already told you to; why won't you shut. the fuck. up?
>>48079471
Woah woah waoh, calm down. Did League of Legends put you on tilt?
>>48079531
Shut. The fuck. Up.
>>48079471
>>48079513
>>48079547
You're clearly equal parts stupid and assblasted.
>>48079479
It wasn't even her goal after. She still just wanted to study uninterrupted.
>>48078631
I can totally see white. Green is a bit of a stretch. Is Venser the only UW walker?
>>48079597
>It wasn't even her goal after. She still just wanted to study uninterrupted.
Please kill yourself. It became and remained her goal, once finding out A POWERFUL TELEPATH WAS ON INNISTRAD to prevent the madness afflicting the plane from escaping it, by killing said telepath if it became necessary. That is a white action, and you can go fuck yourself if you want to claim it didn't happen; because it did; it's in the text and you cannot fucking erase it no matter how fucking hard you try. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you.
>>48079727
>being this mad and this wrong
She's apathetic. She doesn't care about saving people. If she did would have been fighting the madness on Innistrad the whole time. She only started when another powerful 'walker posed a threat.
Get your head out of your ass, you teenage edgelord.
>>48079811
Shut up, cocksucker. The text directly contradicts this. You have no fucking case whatsoever for this idiotic fucking goddamn doubling down. SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU USELESS PIECE OF SHIT.
This is just like that other night where people were arguing over the definitions of travel and movement.
>>48079830
>i can't change my mind because my ass is too blasted
>so i'll just keep pretending i'm right and prove it by being a keyboard warrior edgelord
Why are you so mad about being wrong? Get your shit together, you pathetic loser.
>>48079017
who knows, maybe kaladesh will have him
>>48079899
I DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE MY FUCKING MIND, COCKSUCKER MY POSITION IS STATED BY THE FUCKING TEXT.
>>48079811
and no, she doesn't care about "saving people" SHE CARES ABOUT PRESERVING. FUCKING. ORDER. THE WHITEST FUCKING ACTION IMAGINABLE, DIRECTLY STATED IN THE FUCKING TEXT; YOU USELESS FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT COCKSUCKER. PUT A FUCKING GUN IN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND BLOW YOUR FUCKING BRAINS OUT ONTO THE FUCKING WALL.
>>48079940
AAAAAAND he brings the Eldrazi with him too!!! Hurry, call the Jacetice League!
>>48080001
Dude I agree with you and you are still being massive faggot
>>48079970
>>48080001
She doesn't care about order. The madness on Innistrad was overtaking the plane and she just wanted to study it. She's an observer, nothing more.
You're wrong. And butthurt. And stupid. And 14 years old.
>>48080049
Shut up, you stupid fucking nigger moron; she is not an observer as regards Jace, WHICH IS DIRECTLY FUCKING STATED IN THE FUCKING TEXT, YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT.
>>48078670
Tfw wizards is printing cancer
>>48079017
>>48078670
>only six Planeswalkers in SOI block
>only
What the hell are you smoking?
>>48080001
She cares that the madness might spread to kamigawa and doesn't really give a shit about anything else
>>48079710
narset
>>48080293
Where was this stated?
>>48080173
>moving the goalposts
>being this mad
Damn bro. You lost this argument a long time ago. Let it go.
>>48080315
Same story arc where she was with jace, she was thinking about what would happen if what was happening to Innistrad would spread to her home
>>48080300
Remember how excited /tg/ was for Narset?
>>48080344
>only cares about her own plane
>doesn't give a shit about the suffering on Innistrad right in front of her
>white
kek
>>48077240
Because you assholes won't shut up about your stupid conehead waifu.
>>48079014
>What decks actually want to use Oath of Nissa
Oath of Nissa is a phenomenal card mate.
>>48080396
You left off the important bit, mate.
>>48080344
I remembered incorrectly, she wasn't afraid of that happening. It's in the "stories and endings" story
>love Bant
>been playing Bant since 2008
>been waiting for years to finally get a Bant-colored planeswalker
>get this instead
>in no way Bant and just got those 2 other colors for dumb reasons
>abilities aren't focused in white
>everything about her, even lore, is mono blue
>pondering how many more years I must wait to get a real Bantwalker
>>48080373
Nah FUCK the idea of her being bant. That shits just fucking wrong
>>48080447
But Bant is the investigate color and she's the person all about investigating :^)
With the amount of people complaining about the new Tamiyo, they should've printed Tibalt instead.
>>48080501
New Tamiyo is functional and interesting.
Tibalt is not.
We're all just complaining that she's bant instead of mono u
>>48080501
Don't be silly, more Tamiyo is always the right option.
>>48080447
Same.
>>48080461
Exactly. She's not even Bant for legitimate design resigns.
>We couldn't possibly not have a Jace card, so Tamiyo get's puts on the backburner
>Oh jeez, we've already got a mono-U Jace so what do we do about Tamiyo?
>Well we already designed her as mono-U, sooo...
It's total bullshit. Even if she had been UUWG it would have been forced bullshit. She's not green at all. She's barely UW.
>>48080557
I think you can argue that green can have super curiosity, a la cold eyed Selkie
>>48080557
I can see the Green angle from her study of natural phenomena and importance of spirits and tradition in her culture, but even that's a stretch.
I think she would have been better as 1WUU
>>48080587
UG isn't the same as U or UWG.
>>48080612
But she was studying the unnatural and had no interest in preserving nature as Emrakul twisted it.
>>48080665
>UG isn't the same as U or UWG.
I meant U/G isn't the same.
Honestly, if you had to give Tamiyo three colors based on her personality, you easily go with bant.
>>48080549
>The colors of her attire and skin are literally White, Green and Blue.
P O T T E R Y
O
T
T
E
R
Y
>>48080841
But they didn't have to, and it doesn't make sense. She's not altruistic, she doesn't give a shit about protecting the natural order, and she's not societal. She's a selfish and apathetic. If anything UB makes more sense.
>>48080841
Cards should be colored after what they do and not the lore behind them.
>>48081080
They should be both
>>48078990
She'll see use in DC/EDH.
>>48081100
>sacrifice the gameplay integrity of a card game for a story
WTF? These aren't comic books.
YAY WIZZARDSSSS YAY!!!!!!!!!!!! MORE BANT COLORED CARDS THAT ARE HIGH POWER YAY THEY NEED MORE OPTIONS YAYYYYYYYY WOOO I LOVE GREEN WHITE TOKENS BEING HALF THE METAGAME YAY WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>48080349
An Autist for Autists.
>>48080665
And she studies nature as well. G doesn't universally mean 'elf hippie'
>>48081689
Studying nature in addition to studying everything else doesn't make her G.
>>48081721
No, but her ideas about spiritualism and tradition could make her lean that way.
I'm not saying Green is a good fit, just that it has about as much justification on her as White. She's heavily Blue, and I'm not sure why they shoehorned in these other aspects as full blown extra colors
>>48081689
One of Chandra's biggest character points used to be her intense desire to study.
>>48081762
That's fair enough. They gave her Green to make a Bant card.
For all we know, they did it just because we'll never see Elspeth or Ajani take up those colors at once.
>>48077240
Seriously though, this isn't Green at all and is barely White.
>>48081803
Well, Ajani is more Maya than Bant, and Elspeth is looking to be more Black with the whole underworld thing. I could see her going Abzan oddly enough.
I don't think they really need to fill a quota on Walkers though, or shift people around to make sure there's no overlap.
I kind of like the idea of having a second set of mono-color walkers, and I can see why they didn't want her to overlap with Jace this block, but I think they could have handled it better.
Maybe they should have just stuck one of them in a random duel deck instead.
>>48081868
I feel like Ajani is basically everything but Black, but, yeah, I understand what you mean. (Also excuse my dumb ass for thinking Vengeant was WU for some reason.)
The current line-up of walkers is essentially mono-color main cast, and a bunch of maybe-bodies who have mono cards but are typically multi (or they don't even get more than one card).
In the meanwhile, I really do hope something fun happens with Elspeth. She and Sorin overlap a bit too much in card abilities, especially if they both end up BW.
>>48079080
Tamiyo confirmed for boss bitch
Fuck ye
>>48081939
What's U about Ajani?
>>48081868
>I kind of like the idea of having a second set of mono-color walkers
I just want a squad of walkers that are different. Like a b-team to Jace N Pals, or an evil cycle of walkers.
>>48077240
Lore-wise, they needed to print Tamiyo.
Design-wise, she had to be multicolor, and there are already WU and GU walkers in standard.
Mechanically, she's mainly blue and the card is blue. Not sure why people are shitting themselves over this kind of thing. As we've seen, color identity isn't rigidly aligned. Honestly I wish you faggots were playing during Time Spiral block, so your kneejerk reaction to color pie liberties would make you leave.
I like the card. She's not very strong, especially in a void, but she's pretty damn versatile. Might have to build a Derevi/Rafiq Superfriends commander deck sometime soon.
>>48082649
>I wish you faggots were playing during Time Spiral block
So much this. Colors have never been THAT clearly defined, there IS overlap, and there are cases where for one reason or the other those arbitrary definitions get shaken up deliberately.
>>48082649
>Design-wise, she had to be multicolor, and there are already WU and GU walkers in standard.
If that's the rule then why are there multiple mono-color 'walkers of every color in Standard?
>Mechanically, she's mainly blue and the card is blue. Not sure why people are shitting themselves over this kind of thing. As we've seen, color identity isn't rigidly aligned.
Because it's bad design. If there's no color identity any more then why are there colors?
>Honestly I wish you faggots were playing during Time Spiral block, so your kneejerk reaction to color pie liberties would make you leave.
The whole point of that block was that shit was out of whack, idiot. Complaining about shit being out of whack in that block would have been like complaining about vampires on Innistrad.
>>48082744
>If that's the rule then why are there multiple mono-color 'walkers of every color in Standard?
False equivalence. You can have multiples of mono-color walkers, as there are only 5 colors in the game. You cannot have multiples of 2-color walkers, as WotC really doesn't want to force a superfriends deck.
>>48082744
>Because it's bad design. If there's no color identity any more then why are there colors?
Slippery slope arguments are pure bullshit. They didn't print her non-blue, and none of the abilities on the card ring non-W or non-G. This is not new to MTG. No new precedents are being set with this card. Not every multicolor card represents all colors like Lightning Angel, and it's silly to expect that of them.
>The whole point of that block was that shit was out of whack, idiot. Complaining about shit being out of whack in that block would have been like complaining about vampires on Innistrad.
Complaining about shit being out of whack on a plane succumbing to madness is just as asinine. No, Tamiyo is not an Eldrazi drone, but she's had to adapt just like everyone else on Innistrad. Has she even appeared in the Wednesday story articles yet?
>>48082910
>WotC really doesn't want to force a superfriends deck.
>what is Oath of Nissa
...
>Slippery slope arguments are pure bullshit.
No they're not, because here we are. Mono-U is now Bant for no good reason.
>Not every multicolor card represents all colors like Lightning Angel,
They're supposed to. That's the whole fucking point.
>and it's silly to expect that of them.
It's silly to expect smart design instead of arbitrary design?
>Complaining about shit being out of whack on a plane succumbing to madness is just as asinine.
...
>No, Tamiyo is not an Eldrazi drone, but she's had to adapt just like everyone else on Innistrad.
She's not affected by the madness, and the madness isn't warping mana on Innistrad. Shut the hell up.
Please don't let Jace live
Please don't bring Jace back
Please let Jace be gone forever
Please lord have mercy
>>48083065
Sorry to break it to you but Jace lives and Lili joins the gatewatch because of her reluctant lady boner for him.
>>48083113
Why you gotta bring me down brah
Just let me live in my fantasy realm where Jace isn't the poster boy of Magic
>>48083011
>>what is Oath of Nissa
The Oaths were for kitchen tables. None of the Oaths' Planeswalker abilities are strong enough to make any superfriends deck happen in standard. They knew that when testing, which is why the Oaths are playable outside friends lists.
>They're supposed to. That's the whole fucking point.
No. That's completely limiting. If this card was mono-U, she'd be at least cmc 6 and utterly unplayable. Putting her at 4 gives her a chance at constructed play.
>She's not affected by the madness, and the madness isn't warping mana on Innistrad. Shut the hell up.
Sure it is, both directly and indirectly. Where the Powerpuff Angels are losing color identity, Tamiyo has gained. Where she draws her mana from (now including GW sources) can change without obvious Eldrazi interference. How she uses that mana (mainly U) does not have to be in line with the GW sources.
As forgiving as I am of WotC, I'm not saying it's perfect, and if new sets were given more room to breath, yeah I could see her as mono-U. But I can understand their decisions on a set design level, and the lore can help justify oddities. This is nothing to cry about. She didn't get printed in R or B, and nothing about her personality screams non-G or non-W.
>>48083267
>The Oaths were for kitchen tables
And yet dipshits in this thread and others are saying Oath of Nissa maker Tamiyo Standard playable.
>Where the Powerpuff Angels are losing color identity, Tamiyo has gained.
You just went full retard. That is not what's happening on Innistrad. Creatures are losing their color because they're becoming colorless. Their colors aren't being swapped onto other creatures.
>nothing about her personality screams non-G or non-W.
You mean side from being an apathetic observer?
can they just give us good goldari cards already
>>48078670
Wouldn't that kind of card design be considered hybrid mana?
I am starting to think that they want to print a 3-mana walker every set now.
>>48080447
Look on the bright side, at least you have chance of getting a new bant walker.
I was hoping for a good legendary werewolf.
For anyone defending this card, just imagine if someone had made this last week in a custom card thread. They would have been laughed out of the thread for disregarding the color pie.
>>48083409
>I am starting to think that they want to print a 3-mana walker every set now.
And what could possibly give you that idea? The last one we got was 5 sets ago and the last before that Nicol Bolas.
>>48078670
>She's 3 colors so we can print her?
Then why print her? Wouldn't it be better to save the design for later. Maro has said in the past that planeswalkers have a relatively narrow design space. This is just checking boxes to check boxes.
>>48083479
>5 sets
I meant blocks.
>>48083341
>And yet dipshits in this thread and others are saying Oath of Nissa maker Tamiyo Standard playable.
Dipshits are dipshits. Durdly shit will attract the Johnnies and that's fine.
>You just went full retard. That is not what's happening on Innistrad. Creatures are losing their color because they're becoming colorless. Their colors aren't being swapped onto other creatures.
I didn't say that Emrakul's influence was directly causing Tamiyo to gain GW mana. Desperation can cause her to look to other sources, while still having the same goals. She is a character, not a nameless uncommon creature which should not stray from strict color pie rules.
>You mean side from being an apathetic observer?
Yes. The Selesnya are politically very different from what one might expect from GW, and a card printed in Bant colors does not have to be about Honor and Sigils. What did you think about Elesh and Heliod being printed?
>>48083479
Sarkhan was 2 blocks ago mate.
>>48083546
>Desperation can cause her to look to other sources, while still having the same goals.
When was she desperate and when did she seek other forms of mana inside herself?
>Selesnya are politically very different from what one might expect from GW, and a card printed in Bant colors does not have to be about Honor and Sigils.
Selesnya has clear WG goals and motivations. They're not passive observers to what happens on Ravnica.
>What did you think about Elesh and Heliod being printed?
Are you saying Elesh and Heliod are passive observers like Tamiyo? Because that's completely wrong.
>>48083582
>blocks
>sets
Hello, newfriend.
has tammy o's expressed any concern for bolas, considering her's was the only plane that successfully repelled that guy and multiple counts?
>>48085171
>>48085171
>When was she desperate and when did she seek other forms of mana inside herself?
Iunno. I never cared enough about the lore to worry about it. Clearly Wizards knows they don't need to appeal to the people who care about story when they cost their cards. Nothing eye-brow raising has occurred yet, so I'm still on board. They can explain it later, if they care to.
>Selesnya has clear WG goals and motivations. They're not passive observers to what happens on Ravnica.
Holy shit think broader than that. No, I'm not saying passive observation is distinctly G or W. I'm saying Selesnya has motivations that could fit plenty of color combinations. Could splash black or blue into their attitude of hiveminded one-ness no problem.
Welcome to 2016, where it's down-top set design. They don't print novels for fat-packs, they put story bits of our favorite anime MC Jace-san in weekly installments on a horrible-to-navigate archive intermixed with other mtg articles. Flavor justifies the costs and mechanics. Costs and mechanics do not have to reflect the stories, because they're not being written at enough depth to do so.
It's grim, but the story is taking a backseat to the game. Is that what OP is asking? Why is magic down-top?
Because nobody cared about the books. They're like Big Two comics compared to Big Two movies. Big Two movies make money, comics don't. People who bought books didn't draft every friday, that was the people who cared about the game.
Because cashing in on people's want of Khans of Tarkir's Fetchlands, their nostalgia for Zendikar's Eldrazi, and Innistrad's Vampires/Angels/Werewolves, does not require much story.
>>48085171
>>48085976 con't
>Are you saying Elesh and Heliod are passive observers like Tamiyo? Because that's completely wrong.
No, I'm saying you have ideas about colors having strict guidelines as to what can/cannot be printed on Legendaries/Planeswalkers.
How is -2/-2 to all enemy creatures white?
How is Heliod mono-white in his motivations/actions?
How is pic related blue in any way?
Mana cost can be a lot of things. Abilities and mana costs are not tied as closely together on Legendaries/Planeswalkers as they are on non-legendary rares, uncommons and commons. It's a design liberty they take. Again, yes, this attitude is more forgiving than they deserve, but the set design is not as unbelievably off-color as to shitpost endless threads about it. Call me a redpilled idiot if you want, but these are still people designing the game under a business model. Not everything will fit your idea of good design.
>>48080349
I really don't
>>48083267
>The Oaths were for kitchen tables.
Oh boy, we have a fucking mind reader in there!
>>48085984
>How is pic related blue in any way?
Not the guy you're talking to, but Elementals on Lorwyn are all ideas and concepts given shape rather than just things made of physical matter. It showed up in all 5 colors, so Horde of Notions is an Elemental Tribal Lord, to fit with the tribal themes of the block. Fluffwise, it's a big group of all the other elementals in the set.
Also, a random 5-color monster is much easier to justify design-wise, and doesn't need mechanics from each color. 5 color creatures rarely have effects from each and every color, and instead are used for either flavor to show it's a raw combination of all types of mana, or make very strong abilities possible.
All that said, the more I look at Tamiyo's card, the more I can see the other colors in it. The first ability shows up in Green. The second shows up in White. The third is a Blue draw with an Emblem that combines the creature, enchantment, and spell matters of each. While all of those effects could technically fall under Blue, I think that's more due to the fact that Blue has gotten a ton of mechanics in the past that they've been trying to shuffle around since.
I still don't think Tamiyo should be Bant, but the abilities aren't really the main problem I have. It's more that such a drastic shift in color is rare to see in planeswalkers outside of big personality shifts, except Tamiyo seems to just be herself as usual, which makes it odd.
Sarkhan would be a good example. He started as RG, changed to BR when he went mad, evened out at R, then went full URG when he got all introspective. He's been everything but White, but there's always been a change and reasoning for it.
I don't see that in Tamiyo, which is why it feels off.
>>48086247
I listen to the podcasts of the people who design sets. Actually being plugged in to the voices of people who create cards does give an insight that you're ignoring. It's better than just memeing about the latest twitter spat.
They have to print a Tamiyo, and their options are:
>print a mono-blue Tamiyo, and everyone flips their shit about mono-blue getting too many walkers.
>print a WU/GU Tamiyo, and everyone flips their shit about WU/GU getting too many walkers and superfriend lists are starting to put themselves together.
>print a Bant Tamiyo with Bant abilities and everyone flips their shit about the character not being Bant.
>print a mono-blue Tamiyo with a Bant cost, and here we are, go figure everyone is flipping their shit about it. God knows they wanted to try to please everyone, but don't infer that they let down everyone because of it. They didn't.
Their hands are tied with this. Hasbro wants a movie and the Jacetice League needs to be pushed to the forefront.
>>48085976
>Welcome to 2016, where it's down-top set design.
The term you're looking for is "bottom-up."
>Costs and mechanics do not have to reflect the stories, because they're not being written at enough depth to do so.
Apparently they don't need to reflect anything but what's needed to fill slots.
>It's grim, but the story is taking a backseat to the game. Is that what OP is asking? Why is magic down-top?
That's clearly not what's happening with Tamiyo. She was made Bant for the purposes of shoving her into the block, not for the purposes of balancing the meta or 'walker distribution or anything valid.
>>48085984
>No, I'm saying you have ideas about colors having strict guidelines as to what can/cannot be printed on Legendaries/Planeswalkers.
So why even fucking have colors nay more?
>How is -2/-2 to all enemy creatures white?
It's the perversion of White. That's the point.
>How is Heliod mono-white in his motivations/actions?
He's all about maintaining order and the status quo.
>How is pic related blue in any way?
5-color cards have always been bullshit. That terrible design philosophy shouldn't spread to every color combination.
>>48086215
Many a
>Narset will break *insert format*. Screencap this
post was made.
>>48086460
That's not a valid excuse.
>The designers of the game have no choice but to make bad design decisions because an imaginary movie might happen never.
Even if there was a movie in the works, forcing Jace into every set accomplishes nothing. Only the people who are already playing the game will know or car about it. Printing that substandard SOI Jace didn't spread the brand to new customer and increase brand awareness.
>>48086460
They could have made her a transformation, with the other side being her Journal as an artifact, to represent Jace finally catching up to her. Then her reverse side could be mono-blue without affecting things, as the front would simply be an artifact.
That might be a bit convoluted though, so I can see why they were struggling. Still, I think I almost would have rather her not gotten a card.
I'm almost surprised they didn't make her Esper so she was still 'centered' on Blue.
>>48086635
That would have implied that she was inside the journal.
They should have just skipped Jace, made Tamiyo mono blue, and kept the number of planeswalkers in the block to 5. They wouldn't even need to change her abilities. Tamiyo, Field Researcher at 3UU doesn't fuck the color pie or break Standard.
>>48077444
Bet you thought Sarkhan would be great, too.
>>48086775
>That would have implied that she was inside the journal.
Not necessarily.
That said, the better solution really was to simply not put Jace in. We already have like 6 different Jace cards. Did we need another?
>>48086460
Y'know, this has made me start to notice that they have been pushing Bant and Rakdos as some of the bigger archetypes, though maybe it just seems like that because Gruul and Dimir have been so lackluster lately.
It does end up feeling like a strict goodguys vs. badguys theme because of that though.
>>48086792
>you guiz, it's card advantage AND mana ramp!
>>48086813
>We already have like 6 different Jace cards
You're right. Unraveler of Secrets made 7 different Jace Planeswalker cards.
>>48086775
>>48086813
>Not including Jace at all
It's wishful thinking to believe that Wizards will not include a Jace card. Also with a W/U and U/G Planeswalker being printed in the past 2 blocks (within a year), the only realistic alternative was to not print Tamiyo at all.
>>48086950
>It's wishful thinking to believe that Wizards will not include a Jace card.
They didn't in Battle for Zendikar. They could have simply skipped him again. It's not like we don't know who Jace is by now.
>>48086632
>Even if there was a movie in the works, forcing Jace into every set accomplishes nothing.
He's been in every core set so that he never leaves standard, but he's not in every block. They had to print a story-set Jace fighting Eldrazi, while Oath of Jace was in standard. SOI Jace is the second story Jace since Return to Ravnica 4 years ago. No, he's not being hamfisted into the story as much as people want to think. Just forced into the game via core sets, to keep people talking about him. Now that core sets are gone, they might start forcing him into the story sets more, in which case, of course there'd be reason to complain. Not yet, though. Nobody knew or cared enough about Tamiyo to claim that her character is misrepresented by Bant cost, but people will say that they are. They could, this Wednesday, release a story article explaining her cost, and that will be good enough. Yes, it's bottom up, and it appears especially so when sets are spoiled and released before all the lore articles.
>>48086813
>That said, the better solution really was to simply not put Jace in. We already have like 6 different Jace cards. Did we need another?
They felt a need to print another. M15 Jace is the worst planeswalker card ever printed. The Origins flip-Jace, being the final core set Jace ever, was pushed in comparison. Closer to LotV and Snapcaster power level.
Not a Jace fanboy, I don't think I even own a single Jace, but I've accepted that they're going to print Jaces in my game.
Due to each of the Origins walkers being the face of their color for Magic, you need to be ready for each of the following to always have at least one card in standard, at any point in standard:
>Gideon
>Jace
>Liliana
>Chandra
>Nissa
>>48079328
As much as I love planeswalker cards, the fact that no set will be able to revolve around anything else means that they really are becoming more and more cancerous with time. I really hate this.
>>48083167
Don't worry, dude, I can't stand the whiny fuck, either.
>>48087047
I just want Ajani back, bruh.
>>48077240
imo having her cost 2 colorless 1blue and 1/2white 1/2green would have been better
>>48087456
I agree, or at least something simlar, ie GWUU. But those are ugly costs.
>>48077240
To get money
>>48077240
1: Color identities are not as strictly limiting as you seem to think. Never have been, never will be.
2: Drawing off combat damage is fine for UG, tapping mechanics are perfectly fine for UW. Those are legitimately areas of overlap.
3: Walkers aren't mono-color. Just because one is depicted as such doesn't mean they need to stay that way forever.
People need to calm the fuck down. There's nothing wrong with this card as-printed, even if I don't like the design space argument behind her colors. Jace could have taken a block off.
>>48088028
>1
And they made the color pie for nothing? Most of the time the color pie is broken is for fluff reasons. But there is no fluff in a Bant Tamiyo.
>2
Just because abilities overlap it doesn't mean that they need all colors to cast it. Even more when they print a 3color walker in a 2 color set.
>3
Look at Sarkhan, everytime he transitioned colors, it had a good background for it, and the abilities matched.
No one is complaining about the card breaking the color pie or something, they are complaining because bant cost looks forced as fuck.
>>48078670
Planeswalkers were a mistake.
>>48088403
>they are complaining because bant cost looks forced as fuck
So what if she's dipped into green and white, there's nothing saying she can't or shouldn't as a character and the card's abilities more or less fit. So what if she's not a mono-blue walker, you got one literally this block and it's about damn time we got a walker in Bant.
But those are like, my opinions man. If you want to find reasons to be upset by it be my guest. I just think it's silly.
>>48088489
>about damn time we got a walker in Bant
As a person that really wanted a bant walker, fuck you. I want a true bant walker, not a "blue dipped in white and green", and now I will have to wait years until we get a slim chance of another bant walker.
>>48077240
Where's the white? Seems solidly U/G
>>48088489
>there's nothing saying she can't or shouldn't as a character
Look at Nahiri, she was white, and then she turned WR because she was moved by her anger. It has fluff and you can see that in her abilities.
>>48088521
I... don't understand. Are you bitching that the abilities overlap her colors, that she's centered in blue, that she was *originally* a mono-U walker, or are you just bitching to bitch?
>>48088552
She's a researcher of natural phenomena who's currently fighting a corrupting extraplanar influence from what I can tell out of a sense of communal need. That's Bant. It's clearly Bant.
And nothing ever suggested she wasn't ALREADY in Green or White aside from her original card, the colors of which were at least in part dictated by the same arbitrary set design rules that MaRo cited in his argument, the bloody prick. So it absolutely shouldn't be treated as definitive of her as a character in the first place.
>>48088561
I was hoping for a bant walker for a long time now. I'm complaining that her abilities are not bant. She is a mono blue that is overlapping other colors, it is the same as making Ajani WB because lifelink, it looks forced as fuck and is a disappointment for people who expects a WB walker.
>>48078670
Narrow like Siege Rhino.
>>48078670
His justification is retarded. You could literally use his arguments to justify putting anything in a bunch of other colours. Tibalt could've been UR because looting is a blue thing. Ajani, Caller of the Pride could've been WG because green sometimes puts +1/+1 counts on things too. Elspeth Tirel could've been WG because green can gain life too. Gideon Jura could've been BW because his -2 literally destroys a creature.
Is this how the colour pie dies?
>>48088620
>Overlapping UW and UG abilities don't count as "Bant", a combination of U, W, and G
>Tapping creatures down isn't a "Bant" flavored ability
>Drawing cards off combat isn't "Bant" flavored
Sounds like someone needs to seriously adjust their expectations. And I feel like it's not me.
>>48088713
>newfag discovers how the "color pie" has ALWAYS worked: the post
>>48088589
>She's a researcher of natural phenomena
She is just a researcher, she wants to record all truth, not just natural, unless you think that stuff like Helvault and myrs are "natural". That is clearly U.
She is not helping for a sense of communal need, she is helping because if Emrakul destroys everything, she won't have anything to research in Innistrad or any other plane emrakul goes, she is not breaking her character or doing stuff out of her way, she is not pitying the humans and forcing an unnatural phenomena that is using the moon to bind emrakul, this is clearly not W or G.
>>48088720
>Tapping creatures is Bant, even though it is not green
>Drawing cards off combat is Bant, even though it is not white
This is how the mind of a Maro apologist works. I bet you also think that all RTR mechanics were spot on.
>>48088760
>What do you mean getting warmer? The water feels the same as it always has to me *RIBBIT*
>>48088781
>For a planeswalker to be "Bant" all three abilities have to clearly fit all three colors
>Abilities that clearly work in two colors centered on blue, the color previously associated with the planeswalker, aren't good enough
I don't even have a reaction image for this, but just pretend that it was snarky and insulting.
>>48088783
The water's not "getting warmer", you hyperbolic twat. It's the same temperature it always was, it's just that a three-color card with three abilities was never going to be an absolutely perfect, uniform representation of all three of its colors.
>>48088762
Tamiyo is very strongly opposed to the idea of Planeswalkers interfering in the affairs of the planes they visit.
That's enough to push her into UG territory, it's the White that comes out of nowhere.
>>48088846
>it's just that a three-color card with three abilities was never going to be an absolutely perfect, uniform representation of all three of its colors
So it shouldn't be three colours then. Infringements like this are the subconscious thin end of the wedge.
>>48088856
Refusing to meddle in local affairs is respectful towards the concept of Order, in that you're actively trying not to disrupt the order that exists where you're visiting. That's a very White concept.
>>48088846
How is "tap two target nonland permanents" white? White taps creatures, either that, or tap all permanents lands included.
>>48088856
She just doesn't like to interfere because she wants to research the truth in all beings, and not force her truth into all beings.
>>48088889
She is not meddling to enforce order, she is meddling because Jace convinced her that Emrakul is going to fuck up her research and any other research she may want to do on a plane that emrakul visits.Unless she accepts that emrakul is the truth and the promised end of multiverse
>>48088879
It's not an exact science.
You could print a 3/3 with deathtouch as 2GG, 2BB or use multicolor to push it at 1BG or you could have an hybrid 2B/G B/G and all those options are okay.
Tamiyo is bant because they didn't feel like having her be mono U so they gave her three monoblue abilities, but one that is hybrid U/G and one that is hybrid U/W and color her Bant to have a monoblue characters with hints of white and green printed as a multicolor.
I don't say I wouldn't have preferred a monoblue Tammy or even UG, but all this arguing is useless.
>>48088891
Arguably it's due to Detain, a keyworded ability in a UW guild that focuses on tapping. In cases where a Detain card was UW it usually tapped any nonland target. Same was true of the non-keyworded ability on Ojutai, Soul of Winter. Prior to that tapping as a mechanic straddled the colors and had varied conditions and details, but since Detain UW tapping has been target permanent, doesn't untap next turn.
>>48088720
She is basically a monoU walker, this is what I am complaining. They just printed her bant because they could. When you print a 3color walker, you expect it to have at least 2 colors well represented on it.
>>48088956
And her tapping ability clearly fits with the established norm for UW cards with that sort of ability, as pointed out here >>48088951
As for her first ability you can argue about its relevance to G. It's the more tenuous of the two. But Green also does cheating things (mainly creatures) into play, and it does have abilities that involve combat, so tenuous though it may be the overlap is present. Not perfect, granted, but it was never going to BE perfect.
>>48079157
The exact moment that you realize that magic might be a drunken slump at the moment.
>>48088951
>detain
Detain doesn't tap. It is basically a temporary pacifism that also prevents it from using abilities, it is very white, as opposed to "tap target nonland permanent".
>>48077240
Planeswalker just fucked up Magic's tactics.
How is pic related Green or Blue at all?
Tapdown oppression is possible to print in mono-white, but it also fits in WU.
Vigilance is possible to print in mono-white, but it also fits in WG.
So they printed it in Bant, to keep the mana cost reasonable.
We shouldn't lose our shit every time a multicolor card doesn't represent all present colors equally. You have a fucked up idea of card design if you think it's going to.
>>48088521
She fits perfectly with Derevi. Is Derevi not Bant either? You might want a "Return to Alara" block, but it's not happening for a while yet.
And who the fuck would be a perfect Bant walker? Gideon is mono-white's main man now. Ajani was always Naya, and is being relegated to an "Old Ben Kenobi" role. Elspeth is dead, and if she were to come back, would probably be BW. Venser is dead, and would go Red if anything. Wracking my brain for more characters, but nothing is coming.
>>48078670
How about y'all just you know STOP PRINTING JACE SO MUCH?
Yall have to even out the walkers. It should be in steps 3 mono to 2 duel to 1 tri. Y'all have like 8 mono blue walkers when we still have combos that have no walkers printed at all. Stop printing blue walkers and let every other color and combo catch up.
>>48089030
Fair point of course. Ojutai still taps though, and the key issue here still stands: not every multicolored card is going to perfectly represent each of its colors with every individual thing it does.
I'm mad Tamiyo is Bant and not mono-blue, but not because of this color identity bullshit. I'm mad because blue is shit right now in standard, barring 3-4 cards, whereas green and white are already amazing and looking to improve in EMM. This is just the opposite of what the meta needs.
>>48091447
>How about y'all just you know STOP PRINTING JACE SO MUCH?
This is the first Jace in a story set since RTR 4 years ago. It would make no sense not to print him in the same standard rotation as the rest of the gatewatch (all of whom are getting just as much attention for their respective colors).
>Stop printing blue walkers and let every other color and combo catch up.
There are walkers for every two-color combo, but not for every three-color combo.
Tamiyo got printed in a new combo BECAUSE of Jace taking the mono-U slot for the block, so what exactly are you complaining about?
Next block HAS to include a Mono-Red Chandra. Are you people going to lose your minds when they print a multicolor walker in one of those sets?
>>48091566
>This is just the opposite of what the meta needs.
GW was strong because of Rhino being printed with fetchlands, and then because of CoCo. All the meta needs is CoCo to go, which you don't have to wait very long for. In the meantime, Dispel hits Company and all the Commands.
>>48091632
>It would make no sense not to print him in the same standard rotation as the rest of the gatewatch
Then why not print him last block with the rest of the gatewatch?
>>48091632
>This is the first Jace in a story set since RTR 4 years ago. It would make no sense not to print him in the same standard rotation as the rest of the gatewatch (all of whom are getting just as much attention for their respective colors).
Mechanics before story. You force the story to accommodate the mechanics not the other way around.
>There are walkers for every two-color combo, but not for every three-color combo.
Tamiyo got printed in a new combo BECAUSE of Jace taking the mono-U slot for the block, so what exactly are you complaining about?
Next block HAS to include a Mono-Red Chandra. Are you people going to lose your minds when they print a multicolor walker in one of those sets?
Let me use a hypothetical to ilistrate what I mean.
There are
>8 blue walkers printed
>5 white
>6 red
>5 black
>4 green
With this set up there should be no more blue walkers printed untill every other color has 8 an equal amount. This should be expanded to duel an tri in a step system. All even would look like
>>48091632
>Are you people going to lose your minds when they print a multicolor walker in one of those sets?
Only if they make Koth or Tibalt show up and force them to be Jund or Grixis without any major justification.
>>48091683
>3 U
>3 B
>3 R
>3 W
>3 G
>2 UG
>2 UR
>1 WGR
>1 RGB
So on and so on.
It does not matter what characters are printed only the actual mechanics. In stead of being non partial they are forceing Jace and thus blue into everything fucking up the system.
Maro excused the new Tiamo being off color to accommodate Jace and his story. That should not happen. Mechanics should always come first then story.
>>48091717
>It does not matter what characters are printed only the actual mechanics. In stead of being non partial they are forceing Jace and thus blue into everything fucking up the system.
Clearly not, since GW is so dominant right now.
>there should be no more blue walkers printed untill every other color has 8 an equal amount.
No, bullshit. They have to adjust to the new block format. Kaladesh will most likely have fewer blue walkers than the other colors. The planeswalkers do not have to be at equilibrium at all times during standard. That would be completely restricting to design. Having to fill a quota of tri-color walkers would make for MUCH WORSE design choices than Tamiyo here.
>>48091703
>Only if they make Koth or Tibalt show up and force them to be Jund or Grixis without any major justification.
Major justification is not needed. They could bring back Venser or Jhoira in this set, and giving one of them a third color would make people go apeshit. Story of non-gatewatch characters is so completely tertiary. People will complain either way. Mechanics are justified by story articles. Story articles do not design sets.
>>48091845
>Major justification is not needed
Yes it is, or people will complain.
>Mechanics are justified by story articles.
Right, so if they made Koth UBR, then they should justify that by making a story article showing how he's changed from pure Red. It's not difficult.
>>48091969
>Yes it is, or people will complain.
No, it could be as easy as a small paragraph about some introspection on her part, and that would be good enough. That would not be major justification, but sufficient justification all the same.
>Right, so if they made Koth UBR, then they should justify that by making a story article showing how he's changed from pure Red. It's not difficult.
Yes, but Koth isn't one of the main 5, so he wouldn't need a whole story article to himself to justify the change.
With cards being spoiled before all the story articles are out, people will complain about there being no justification. There's still plenty of time for them to come out with an explanation for Tamiyo, but she's not a Jacetice Leaguer, so her story matters less.
Who cares what color an insignificant character on a card game is?
It doesn't matter if she came out WUBRG and had "Win the game" as her ult.
Seriously, everyone will complain about everything. Just shut the hell up and enjoy the freaking game.
>>48092197
>Just shut the hell up and enjoy the freaking game
Literally not possible for some people. I agree with the sentiment, but reality is a stone cold bitch sometimes.
>>48077240
We know it's because they already have a Jace in the set, right?
>>48077370
>>will see no competitive play in Standard or Modern
Yeah, this certainly won't see any play at the top end of a bant aggro curve
>>48091845
I'm not talking about standard I'm talking period. Over the WHOLE timeline of MTG. Every color and combo should be represented not just a few.
>>48080383
>>48080383
>>48080383
>A chime rang in the distance. An invitation?
I will not shut up about my coneheaded waifu.
>>48092197
Hard to enjoy the game when they make my Hammer Film setting another fucking superheroes x aliens block holy shit
I don't give two fucks about what color some random bitch from a shitty weeaboo plane is as long as they gave me the zombies, vampires, werewolves, and spooky ghosts that Innistrad is about.
But no
IT HAS TO BE ABOUT THE JUSTICE LEAGUE RIPOFF AGAIN
THESE PEOPLE NEED TO GET THE FUCK OFF AND STOP RUINING THE GAME
>>48092968
>I'm not talking about standard I'm talking period. Over the WHOLE timeline of MTG. Every color and combo should be represented not just a few.
No. If they print too many walkers in as short a time as you want, then the game starts being less about creatures and more about chase mythic planeswalkers. Every 1-color and 2-color combo is represented at least once on a planeswalker.
>>48093275
>IT HAS TO BE ABOUT THE JUSTICE LEAGUE RIPOFF AGAIN
Jace is the only Leaguer in the block, and the addition of Lili will make two. Plus her Oath card, that will make 3 cards in the set even vaguely about the League. Holy shit, what a nightmare.
The set is not about the Gatewatch, it's about the Lovecraftian Horrors brought on by Emrakul. It's very much in line with Innistrad's flavor, and the logical next step for every tabletop gamer who played Arkham Horror. Would you have preferred Innistrad be exactly the same as it was prior? Would you have preferred the madness on Innistrad be caused by some new piece of shit Not!Cthulu? It was handled in an interesting way, and you would have had a kneejerk reaction either way, virt.
>>48093462
>Jace is the only Leaguer in the block, and the addition of Lili will make two. Plus her Oath card, that will make 3 cards in the set even vaguely about the League. Holy shit, what a nightmare.
You don't get, the whole story is just the conclusion of what the Jacetice League was doing last block. They just turned everything into tentacle monsters because retards would think this is some brilliant reference to Lovecraft.
>lel everyone eldrazi nao we so HPL check these stupid artifacts we call them clues even though the whole plot is literally revealed in like two cards
>Would you have preferred the madness on Innistrad be caused by some new piece of shit Not!Cthulu?
YES? For someone bringing Lovecraft you don't seen to notice that this Emrakul thing isn't Lovecraftian in the slightest, it's just spaghetti alien destroying the world all over again.
They could've made a new Innistrad block about actual unseen horrors (the creature type) driving almost everyone on the plane mad from the shadows and have an actual mystery setting, it would've been great. But they stopped at the name being a reference to The Shadow over Innsmouth, leaving the story to be about tying the capeshit plot, something that they could've done in Oath of the Gatewatch.
>>48093816
I would have loved an Innistrad with mysterious Horror tribal going on. Something to shake up the status quo and put humans off their footing again.
Having an all-out Eldrazi invasion doesn't fit the tone of Innistrad, even if they wanted the Eldrazi behind it. It would have been better if Kozilek had shown up, but somehow only been able to subtly influence things.
>>48078670
Explain to a newfag to the game what is meant by "developmental problems"? Does the TWotC literally have to sacrifice babies to print cards and doing the wrong cards leads to other babies getting developmental abnormalities or what?
>>48093816
>something that they could've done in Oath of the Gatewatch.
No, they couldn't. 2-set blocks don't have enough room for the story and design to be limited entirely to one plane at a time.
>YES?
They cannot rip off Lovecraft so obviously. Using their own house creatures they're able to get away with it.
>For someone bringing Lovecraft you don't seen to notice that this Emrakul thing isn't Lovecraftian in the slightest,
She absolutely is. Tentacles, instilled insanity, abyss-minded, and the existing between planes of existence, is very symbolically Shoggoth.
>it's just spaghetti alien destroying the world all over again.
No, it's clearly not the same. Straight Alien Invasion of Ulamog and Kozilek is different from the chaos and corruption caused by Emrakul's influence.
>>48093462
Short time? What? Who said that. They could take YEARS to equal it out for all I care. Just equal it out and shelf blue and Jace for a bit.
>>48094082
>Just equal it out and shelf blue and Jace for a bit.
They just took him off the shelf after 4 years without being in a story set.
I really cannot understand how people haven't accepted that there's going to be a Jace in standard for a long time. There's no use complaining about it, it's what Magic's story is right now. Without core sets, it's unlikely that the next mono-blue walker will be Jace, but there will, without a doubt be a Jace printed when SOI rotates out. Same goes for Eldritch Moon Lili. Same goes with Gideon and Nissa when BFZ rotates out. Hell, Chandra is getting a card next block, before her OGW card leaves standard. Why aren't you bitching about that?
>>48093993
>No, they couldn't. 2-set blocks don't have enough room for the story and design to be limited entirely to one plane at a time.
Yes, they could. They killed two titans with le smug fire girl like they were made of paper. Might as well have gone all the way in and leave Flying Spaghetti Monster crippled in Zendikar while they were at it.
>They cannot rip off Lovecraft so obviously. Using their own house creatures they're able to get away with it.
Says who? Nobody is asking them to name not!Cthulhu, you know, Cthulhu. And Horrors are their own house creatures anyway, but they chose to use the Eldrazi for the shitty design reasons already stated.
>She absolutely is. Tentacles, instilled insanity, abyss-minded, and the existing between planes of existence, is very symbolically Shoggoth.
Fuck no, she's nothing like the shoggoth, do you even know what you're talking about? Emrakul is literally just Galactus with tentacles, they said it themselves. They tried to associate her with Cthulhu and other Lovecraftian horrors and failed miserably because none of them have any semblance of intelligence nor do they stand for a mind crushing revelation at the end of the story.
>No, it's clearly not the same. Straight Alien Invasion of Ulamog and Kozilek is different from the chaos and corruption caused by Emrakul's influence.
The only difference is that her trail leaves body horror behind instead of warping physics. Besides that, it's straight alien invasion and they don't even manage to hide it for long enough to create suspense.
They do show some characters going crazy but anyone would go crazy if they had tentacles growing out of their brain. Madness in Lovecraft's works is a completely different thing though.
>>48093993
They could have simply NOT killed all or sealed all of the Eldrazi immediatly. They could have had them take care of Ulamog in BFZ using the two sets for conflict and resolution, then had Emrakul and Kozilek be elsewhere for future use. They didn't have to jump immediatly to Innistrad either to keep up the Eldrazi train.
You're saying that they HAD to do this or that, but ultimately they chose to do all of it. They chose to get rid of core sets. They chose to make Jace the focus. They decided that meant he had to always have a standard card and thus be shoehorned in every other block.
We get why they're doing it, but that doesn't excuse them.
>>48085984
hey i have that card, too bad never used it
>>48091703
Tibalt should've been BR to begin with anyways
>>48094247
>Emrakul is literally just Galactus with tentacles, they said it themselves.
1.Source
2.Things can change. When you have multiple writers all working on the same universe, you should not expect continuities to be upheld. No, MTG lore is not as far gone as Big Two capeshit, but it's no gold standard that needs to be upheld.
>They tried to associate her with Cthulhu and other Lovecraftian horrors and failed miserably
Clearly they didn't fail. Enough people are drawing similarities for it to have succeeded as a parallel. Symbolically it fits perfectly. MTG lore does not have to follow HPL canon for people to associate them.
>none of them have any semblance of intelligence nor do they stand for a mind crushing revelation at the end of the story.
Sure they do. Did you read the story article about Jace trying to read Emrakul's mind? Exactly what you could expect from trying to read an Old One's mind.
>The only difference is that her trail leaves body horror behind instead of warping physics.
That's all it takes. The Eldrazi in BFZ block were all outside invaders. The Eldrazi in SOI block are almost entirely corrupted from other creatures.
>>48094314
>We get why they're doing it, but that doesn't excuse them.
In your mind, sure. I can see that they want to give each of the colors a face to cling to, and if they feel that the only way to go about doing that is by keeping certain generic walkers in standard, then that's their prerogative. It's not getting in the way of set design as much as the shitflingers say, and Jace certainly isn't the only character being forced into stories.
As far as changing block structure goes, it needed a change. Big Small Big was horrible, and there were tons of cards just padding out sets.
As far as getting rid of core sets goes, they just didn't have the prerelease turnout that they actually cash in on.
>>48094517
>1.Source
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/rise-part-i-2010-03-26
The worst thing is that they literally describe Cthulhu as "so horrible that people who merely get a sense of what it truly is are driven insane." Needless to say that no one was driven insane when they saw the titans on Zendikar, making them just Galactus with tentacles, as I said.
>2.Things can change.
Not arguing with that. Still, no reason to fuck up things at such a fundamental level like they did. Jacetice League aside, this is just bad design and a poor attempt at making a homage to Lovecraftian horror.
>Clearly they didn't fail. Enough people are drawing similarities for it to have succeeded as a parallel. Symbolically it fits perfectly. MTG lore does not have to follow HPL canon for people to associate them.
Because most people only know his works as those with the tentacle monsters and such. If their goal was to present a caricature of what Lovecraft really is about, then I agree, they didn't fail.
>Sure they do. Did you read the story article about Jace trying to read Emrakul's mind? Exactly what you could expect from trying to read an Old One's mind.
If you don't have a clue about what a Old One is, maybe.
>That's all it takes. The Eldrazi in BFZ block were all outside invaders. The Eldrazi in SOI block are almost entirely corrupted from other creatures.
They are actually less of invaders in BFZ than Emrakul in Innistrad, because they were there all along. Regardless, it doesn't matter if she's bringing her drones with her or corrupting the natives of the plane, the context of the story is still that of an alien invasion and not of hidden horrors beyond your comprehension being slowly revealed like you'd expect from a Lovecraft inspired story. So again, it's like 99% Galactus and 1% Cthulhu.
>>48094839
>Because most people only know his works as those with the tentacle monsters and such. If their goal was to present a caricature of what Lovecraft really is about, then I agree, they didn't fail.
>the context of the story is still that of an alien invasion and not of hidden horrors beyond your comprehension being slowly revealed like you'd expect from a Lovecraft inspired story.
It's a two-set block. This is the absolute closest that they could get, and it's good enough. This is a card game, not a novel, and the attached lore is not written by HPL.
>>48092197
If you don't play the game, feel free to leave. It may sound weird to you, but there are people who actually cares about the game.
>>48095462
This Tamiyo isn't ruining the game. When I leave the game, it will be because the game is bad, not because of the fanbase being unhappy with every single design choice. Those are the people who threaten to leave, and never do.
>>48095249
>This is the absolute closest that they could get
Nah, that's bullshit and you know it.
Being a two-set block/card game with attached lore/whatever other excuse you can find isn't the reason why they fucked up, it's because they wanted to follow the capeshit route, there's no way to deny it now. It might be good enough for you but not for anyone who wants to see something else in new block other than Jace and friends fighting the villain of the week again for the nth time.
>>48077240
does anyone else feel like the SOI jace felt more like a Tamiyo?
>>48094680
>there were tons of cards just padding out sets.
Just like there is now. Just like there's always going to fucking be, because that padding has nothing to do with design and everything to do with greed. Only reason bad cards exist is because they want you to have to buy more cards to have a deck (even if you only buy singles, you're still paying for the chaff in the price of the single).
>>48095511
As long as the game makes more good choices than bad ones, I am ok with it, since mtg doesn't really have competition. But it doesn't mean I am not allowed to complain about bad design choices.
"Just shut up and enjoy" is the worst excuse for a bad design choice I have ever heard.
I have skipped half of theros, khans, and zendikar2, bought some boxes of SOI, but I am thinking of skipping this set. The point is that it has been some years that I have been more hyped about secondary products than actual sets.
I guess I just don't like that the story is less and less about the people of the plane and their daily life, and more about planeswalkers fucking up/saving the day, again.
>>48092197
>who cares if the game is shit
>just shut up and enjoy it
Nigger, you just went full retard.
>>48078670
Maro is so fucking retarded, holy shit. He's not even coming up with excuses anymore, he's just saying that they had no choice. Even when they had literally infinite choices.
>>48092197
>who cares if a thing is good or bad
are you for real nigga
>>48095795
i think that Jace unraveler of secrets started as a Tamiyo PW then they changed it for MOAR JACE
>>48095769
>I have been more hyped about secondary products than actual sets
I know how you feel, planechase was the last product that I had loads of fun with. Now we have been playing some conspiracy/masters drafts, and making some edh's out of the cards we get from them.
>>48095641
>Nah, that's bullshit and you know it.
No. This is a game, not a novel. Between sets there were several months for people to spitball ideas, and look at the clues pointing to Eldrazi, so of course nobody was surprised by the reveal. I'm not delusional enough to expect a strong narrative from a card game with weekly story blurbs that don't even have a steady through line. You shouldn't expect anything but a caricature.
>Being a two-set block/card game with attached lore/whatever other excuse you can find isn't the reason why they fucked up
They didn't fuck up. Eldritch Moon is going to sell. Nobody cares that the Eldrazi are not completely accurate representations of HPL horrors, because this is not an HPL story. There are enough similarities for the people who buy the product. That's not a fuck up, that's a success.
>it's because they wanted to follow the capeshit route, there's no way to deny it now
The capeshit model works. Everybody is going for it. They want a movie eventually, and need to make sure people don't forget the League members. It makes sense that they want their game's characters to not be cut off for years when the game changes planes.
>It might be good enough for you but not for anyone who wants to see something else in new block other than Jace and friends fighting the villain of the week again for the nth time.
This is the second time in two blocks. Yes, the three titans could have been split up or staggered more, but it's not the end of the world. Kaladesh isn't going to feature Eldrazi, but possibly a couple Oath Members.
>>48095906
>This is a game, not a novel.
You do realize there was a time, not that long ago, when this game actually had interesting story arcs and even some pretty decent novels, right?
I get that people like you will eat up any shit they make, but let's no pretend it couldn't be much better than it is right now.
>>48096220
>You do realize there was a time, not that long ago, when this game actually had interesting story arcs and even some pretty decent novels, right?
Rose tinted glasses. A lot of it was boring tripe.
>I get that people like you will eat up any shit they make, but let's no pretend it couldn't be much better than it is right now.
I'm not saying it's perfect, but you expect a fine souffle from a dairy queen ice cream cake. Sometimes a cheap slab of shit is what the kids want, and they're not wrong to. People can want what they want.
>>48096339
>Rose tinted glasses. A lot of it was boring tripe.
That's rich from someone who thinks Jacetice League is good enough.
>Sometimes a cheap slab of shit is what the kids want
Well, at least we agree it's shit then.
>>48096339
>you expect quality from expensive products
>that means you're stupid
What the fuck is going on here?
>>48096395
>That's rich from someone who thinks Jacetice League is good enough.
You're making this far too personal. I didn't say it was good lore. I said it was good enough for the goals it wants to achieve. You said it was a failure, but it's clearly accepted by people. ie, not a failure.
>Well, at least we agree it's shit then.
The lore, sure. The game is fine. The people playing the game and buying product don't care about the lore more than the basics of the characters and settings.
>>48096447
Quality from expensive products is what people are getting. The limited environment is always fine (if a bit too creature heavy), and that's where WotC makes their money. Next to nobody cared about the novels, even when they were included for free in fatpacks.
The lore is secondary to the mechanics and set design. It has been for a while. If you base the quality of the game on the quality of the lore, then you should've jumped ship years ago.
>>48096627
>You're making this far too personal. I didn't say it was good lore. I said it was good enough for the goals it wants to achieve.
Maybe you shouldn't have spent so many posts trying to make the current lore seem less bad than it actually is.
I don't have a problem with Jacetice in specific. I have problem about stories centered on the planeswalkers in general.
Some of them were pretty cool, like Karn/Venser in Mirrodin, and even then, the whole plane and plot wasn't about them. I just don't want stories about superheroes and supervillains doing everything while the rest of the world watches, even more when the whole world has vampires, werewolves, ghosts, zombies, mad scientists, angels, and demons.
>>48096862
And maybe you shouldn't have spent so many posts trying to say the lore means more than it actually does to the majority of players.
>>48097013
Except nowhere I implied that. I'm perfectly aware the majority of players are plebs.
Nice try though.
>>48077693
She's going to rape in standard dude. I don't know what you're talking about
>>48097149
>Except nowhere I implied that
You called it a failure several times. It might be to you, but I wasn't talking about you, or the other Vorthoses in the thread.
>>48096627
>Quality from expensive products is what people are getting.
>The limited environment is always fine
>>48097221
>/tg/ is this shit at magic
>>48097270
Because it is a failure whether most players swallow it or not.
>>48097292
When was the last time you drafted? How was your sealed experience at the last couple prereleases? Their game is not broken. The secondary market, and constructed play is in dire need of changes, but the game that they make money from is fine.
>>48097444
>Because it is a failure whether most players swallow it or not.
Nope. A product is only a failure if players don't swallow it. It is not a failure if players do swallow it.
>>48097530
Drafting BFZ fucking sucked. That set is dildos.
>>48097530
>Nope. A product is only a failure if players don't swallow it. It is not a failure if players do swallow it.
It is a failure because they proposed something (Galactus meets Cthulhu) and didn't accomplish it, resulting in Galactus with tentacles vs Justice League. That's why I said that they explicitly describing Cthulhu as "so horrible that people who merely get a sense of what it truly is are driven insane" was the worst part of the article, because it shows that they knew what they were working with but failed to deliver.
So yeah, good enough for the plebs to eat, but a failure on itself nonetheless.
>>48093275
>But MaRo, I DO care about the story which is why I'm making fun of how bad you guys are making it.
