This is MaRo's perception of the color pie.
Do you agree or disagree?
>>48065826
MaRo rarely does anything right, but I have to give it to him today.
She didn't really need to be white, but you could look at it this way: We had a UG walker literally last block. Do we really need another? It would make more sense if she was GWUU, but on some level he's right: She's blue with green and white overlapping.
>>48065826
It seems more like 'Maro is excusing what Development decided' honestly, since Development does most of the work on planeswalker cards, not design
>>48065826
That's fine, I guess, it was a consession to game balance. They wanted her and Jace to have cards in the set, and having two powerful planeswalkers being mono blue would probably be too much. It seems to me that Tamyio, if printed again will either be UG or simply Blue, assuming what Maro said was indeed the reason.
>>48066356
>assuming what Maro said was indeed the reason.
while Maro is often wrong about how awesome things are going to be, and how much people are going to love them, he's typically pretty honest about the reason why little details happen in development.
Up to saying, 'we had an idea, we didn't test it well enough, so the result was fucked up'
Mental Misstep, Skull Clamp, etc
>>48065826
>We can't print a blue Tamiyo because we need more Jace!
Fuck you maro.
>>>48067808 Fuck you WotC(aHS)
Fixed. Don't lambaste the messenger.
>>48067808
God, so much this.
>>48065826
I disagree with the idea that they couldn't have two Blue walkers in the same set, or that they needed Tamiyo to be more broad.
I mean, they've got Sorin as WB, Nahiri as WR, and Arlinn as RG. I don't see how this is much different.
Just last block, they also had Kiora in the same block as Jace and Nissa, so clearly they could have at least had her as simply dual color. I think W/U or W/G would have been a better fit if they only needed it to show how she's different from Jace. Even that's a dumb justification though, since she's a great example of how characters from the same slice of the pie can have different motivations and abilities.
>>48068307
>Jace was in the BFZ block
I think the implication was that they didn't want two planeswalker cards in the same colors in the same block. Saying Jace was in BFZ block would be like saying that Ludevic was in Innistrad block.
>>48068564
What? No, I'm talking about the fact that they had Jace and Kiora both in BFZ block.
Mono blue, Blue-green. They didn't make Kiora Bant or Temur just because jace was there, so clearly Tamiyo didn't need to be.
>>48068671
I don't think a Jace planeswalker card was actually printed in BFZ block. It was Gideon, Kiora, Ob, Chandra, and Nissa.
Right?
>only Jace gets to be mono-blue from now on, development says so.
>>48068671
>>48069232
It just feels like Jace was in BfZ block because Baby Jace was so popular
Just like it felt like Jace was in RtR block twice because Living Guildpact was in M15
>>48069232
Well, point stands. They still had Kiora and Nissa at the same time.
I don't get it, what exactly is the excuse for not giving her any abilities even remotely W or G related?
>>48069343 (You)
>>48069447
Detain is a secondarily white mechanic
The "Creatures matter" part of her +1 is green
There's not much, but it's there.
Yanno, if they didn't want to blue walkers, they could've just left Jace out.
Like, it was an option.
>>48069510
I'd say her ultimate also has some green, as it lets you play creatures without paying the casting cost.
>>48069447
Tapping creatures is white, even if the way that Tamiyo does it is more blue than white, therefore her -2 is blue and white at the same time.
Drawing cards is blue but gaining an advantage when your creatures do things is inherently green, therefore making her +1 blue and green at the same time.
Therefore, although she could be made mono-blue, she can also be made Bant instead.
>>48069396
>had a mono-green and a green gold planeswalkers
>that totally different from having a mono-blue and a blue gold planeswalker.
>>48069560
That's my point. It isn't different at all. What are you trying to say?
>>48069510
She would be more appropriately costed as 1{W/U}U{G/U}, really, but they don't like doing hybrid costs that much so nope
>>48069540
Her ultimate is literally Omniscience with Concentrate tacked on.
>>48069577
going back to >>48068307
where it was said " that they couldn't have two Blue walkers in the same set"
that comment only makes sense if you meant mono-blue.
So I assumed you were arguing for two mono-blue. Which doesn't mach the BFZ case.
>>48069637
Omnisience is really edging into green territory. It got away with it because it was so expensive, but putting permanents into play for free is normally green.
>>48069645
Those were two separate thoughts.
First, I don't see why they couldn't have mono-blue.
Second, even if they couldn't have mono-blue, I didn't see why she couldn't be dual-color instead of tri-color, as dual-color would match the BFZ case
>>48069588
Which is a shame really. Hybrid costs are lots more fun
>>48069693
>First, I don't see why they couldn't have mono-blue.
because it would overpower mono-blue decks, and all decks that use heavy blue.
> I didn't see why she couldn't be dual-color instead of tri-color, as dual-color would match the BFZ case
maybe in this case they needed more restriction than in the BFZ case.
Maybe it was to give Tamiyo a more unique identity, as Venser was W/U, and Kiora very much has the U/G slot.
I don't see why this is a major problem. She's not actively not bant.
>>48069733
>>48069693
If she was mono-blue, she would have shot up to 3UU/4UU in cost.
>>48069693
>I didn't see why she couldn't be dual-color instead of tri-color, as dual-color would match the BFZ case
Because she'd be hilariously overpowered or expensive if she was dual-color
>>48069637
'Mana acceleration and shoving free stuff into play' is green though. So Omniscience is something that can easily be a GU effect.
Honestly, it's a bit questionable why Omniscience is a blue effect in the first place as 'Free shit' isn't really part of Blue's colour stuff.
>>48066209
If she had been able to be printed in two colors, it would have been better to see her in UW than UG.
>>48066334
Pretty much, he reads "I wanted Tamiyo and development wouldn't let me have her unless it was one more selesnya card for their WG fetish".
I've always considered Tamiyo to be a little bant in flavor, if I was forced to pick a tricolor combo for her
Tricolor cards come in 3 forms
1-actually representative of the 3 colors in an interesting way, there's like a handful of these in all of magic's history
2-doesn't really capture all 3 colors but is decently fun to play with and doesn't outright break any color pie rules, bant tamiyo is in this category, another example would be Doran the siege tower
3-very hamfisted and obvious combination of signature effects from different colors, see the charms from alara and tarkir, or nicol bolas planeswalker's ultimate (his other abilities were more interesting for grixis and very flavorful)
>>48071997
Something I saw in another thread that made me realize that Bant works very well for her is that 'Bant is basically the Starfleet colours'. Tamiyo would not be out of place in starfleet blues talking about how they can't break the prime directive, even if it would cost them their lives.
>>48065826
I cant hate this reasoning because I like the card too much. Even if its stupid it gave us a nice card which matters in the end, right?
>>48071997
>I've always considered Tamiyo to be a little bant in flavor, if I was forced to pick a tricolor combo for her
Why tho?
In my opinion:
>Bant
Kiora after OGW
>Esper
Vronos
>Grixis
Bolas
>Jund
Sarkhan
>Naya
Ajani
>Mardu
Sorin after EMN
>Temur
Tamiyo, she's an astronomer driven by passion for knowledge, not community, order, peace or whatever bull
>Abzan
Nissa
>Jeskai
Narset, eventually
>Sultai
Vraska
>>48072321
>Vronos
I was not familiar with this character until just now. I'm a little upset now, since he seems like he could have been a pretty cool dude.
>>48072321
>passion for knowledge
That's mono U you absolute dingus.
>>48066209
>We had a UG walker literally last block.
???? Did I miss something?
>>48065826
It should be obvious to everyone now that Jace is _THE_ monoblue planeswalker and that Wizards won't print other monoblue planeswalkers anymore. Tamiyo is Bant because MaRo doesn't want his favorite superhero being overshadowed by other superheroes.
>>48065826
Reinforces the fact that everything wrong with MtG today is development's fault.
>>48073217
Never mind, I had completely forgotten that Kiora existed as no one plays her
>>48072321
>Kiora in Bant
the fuck are you on buddy
she's way too selfish for that crap
>>48072321
>Fishtits in white
ahhahaha
>Sorin ever going red, he of the edgelord composure
>Temur Tamiyo
Red. The character that's all about observing and note-taking dispassionately, ever going near the color of emotion and impulsiveness
>Nissa in black
tree-huggers about power or ruthlessness?
mate you have the shittest judgment
>>48073348
dw everyone forgets about fishtits and the time bastard too
>>48073473
>>Nissa in black
>tree-huggers about power or ruthlessness?
What part of 'Elf Hitler' doesn't make her in black, at least at SOME point in her life?
>>48073505
Literally retconned.
>>48065826
>>48073505
Nissa has always been about nothing but love and acceptance, anon. Racist against non-elves? Pro elf superiority? Nissa's never been like that. You're so silly, anon. You must be thinking of someone else...
>>48073513
Dammit, man!
>>48069510
Her +1 isn't 'creatures matter', it's ' don't attack me'.
>>48073928
It can be used offensively as well.
>>48073944
Wouldn't you rather use it on defence as an attempt to get to her ultimate?
Don't know how much it matters but right as shadows came out, the magic origins game has you playing as jace in mono blue, and when tamiyo joins you your deck becomes bant
>>48065826
>the bant walker was this gigantic waste of space
>due to the narrowness of the colors it will be fucking years until we see another one.
>>48073217
Show me any block where they print two walkers of the same color combination. You can have overlap but you don't want them to be exactly the same color because people will call favoritism. That's the primary reason why Sorin became BW even though his so-called altruism can be justified in Black: so they could keep LOTV mono-black.
However, you are right in saying that any block with a Jace card will not feature another mono-blue walker from now on unless they decide to change Jace's color combination.
>>48072321
Sorin is certainly losing white after this block.He gives up on Innistrad entirely and Nahiri encases him in stone. He's coming back to fill in the Rakdos slot.
>>48073954
Depends on the board state.
I would use it offensively if I think there's a good chance to get away with it. Two cards a turn is noteworthy advantage.
And as somebody else mentioned you can still do both assuming Vigilance.
>>48069517
>passing up an opportunity to print Jace
We both know that "options" and "realistic options" are two different things.
>>48069517
>they could've just left Jace out.
>man thrown out of the window for suggesting reasonable idea at the board meeting.jpg
There was also Narset who took the WU slot even though she came out 2 blocks ago. It may have been too soon to have another WU Planeswalker within a year of each other.
>>48074081
>Sorin becomes mono-B
>Liliana becomes the new BW planeswalker after joining the Jacetice League
>tfw one of those questions is yours.
>>48072321
>Kiora
>Bant
At the final battle she literally said "Fuck this place" and summoned a giant tidal wave that would have wrecked everything if Jace hadn't stepped in
>>48074081
That's what I think. Sorin goes B.R, freeing up B/W for Elspeth.
All these people who were thinking someone besides Lily would join the watch, or that Lily, Jace, etc will become more than mono-color....WTF do these people think the purpose for Magic Origins was? Literally the origin story for the Gatewatch members.
>>48075871
Then why did they also state, at that time, that Elspeth wasn't just staying white, but becoming MORE monowhite?
Assuming Wizards wants to only have one Planeswalker per color or combination of colors, they still have some overlap especially for the multicolored Planeswalkers.
White: Gideon (Formerly Ajani, Elspeth, Nahiri)
Blue: Jace (Formerly Tamiyo, Teferi Tezzeret)
Black: Liliana/Ob Nixilis (Formerly Sorin)
Red: Chandra/Daretti/Koth/Tibalt (Formerly Sarkhan)
Green: Nissa (Formerly Freyalise, Garruk)
W/U: Narset (Formerly Venser)
U/B: Ashinok/Tezzeret
B/R: None (Formerly Sarkhan)
R/G: Domri/Arlinn (Formerly Sarkhan, Xenagos)
G/W: Ajani
W/B: Sorin
W/R: Nahiri (Formerly Ajani)
U/R: Dack/Ral
U/G: Kiora
B/G: Garruk/Vraska
W/U/B: None
W/U/G: Tamiyo
U/B/R: Nicol Bolas
B/R/G: None
R/G/W: None
W/U/R: None
W/B/G: None
U/B/G: None
B/R/W: None
R/G/U: Sarkhan
>>48076290
It's pretty much confirmed that Tibalt is going to be BR the next time we see him. Also not going to be a 2 drop.
Run me down which abilities go in which colour pie again.
>>48076594
Like every ability ever?
>>48076726
Yeah, why not. I'd rather not chance it with a search engine.
>>48076835
Just go find the custom card thread. They tend to have a decent list
>>48076853
Is some crusty old list that was knocking around here for at least four years now, merely "decent", really the best there is?
>>48072349
He exists exclusively so that Garruk has someone to killfuck in whichever DotP game.
Because fighting women is sexist.
>>48065826
They printed her in the investigate colors because that's what she was doing on Innistrad the whole time. Personally I don't think that investigate should be green because it's not a green mechanic at all, wizards just slapped it on there to make green better at drawing cards than black
>>48069517
The Jace they printed isn't even good. It's literally there just to have a new Jace card.
>>48065826
Why not 1U(G/U){W/U)?
>>48077686
Because it's a clusterfuck of a CMC in a block without anything like that?
>>48066356
They you know could have not printed another Jace.
>>48075871
Some of us are just sad, anon. It can be hard not to be in denial about wasted story opportunities.
>>48076290
I don't think they only want one planeswalker per color combination; it's pretty clearly just one per color combination in a given block.
>>48077796
As someone who really likes Jace, I honestly also wish they hadn't printed him again. It just makes him overexposed and makes people not like him, plus his story arc would have made so much more sense if he'd just stayed on Ravnica with his responsibilities.
>>48077846
I think that the walkers should be printed equally in steps. 3 mono to 2 duel to 1 Tri. if there are 7 blue walker card printed they should be banned from making more until the other colors and combinations catch up.
>>48077846
But then they can't have Return to Return to Ravnica in the near future!
>>48077796
If they want Jace to remain the Posterchild of Magic, they should have someone else take over being the Guildpact.
>>48078014
He's so much more interesting as the Guildpact though. Dammit, WOTC.
>>48076893
Yes.
Because listing out every ability and which slice(s) of the pie it falls under is a really big task.
>>48078139
The problem is that being the Guildpact means that they should for the most part be stationed in Ravnica, but Jace is doing anything but. I'd rather have Niv-Mizzet or someone else take over that role.I would rather have him steal Ral whatever's spark and go around the Multiverse doing Mad Scientist things.
>>48078427
That is extremely disappointing. MtG is lacking in crucial autism.
>>48078435
Jace not living up to his commitments isn't a good reason for Jace not to live up to his commitments, and Niv would hardly be an acceptable Guildpact. He would never be impartial.
>>48079051
Like others have stated, If we ever come back to Ravnica, hope that there will be consequences for Jace being away from the plane.
If they had to change the cost for development, they could've at least made new abilities to match the colors.
>>48080539
This. Why don't her abilities reflect UWG? There are tons of UWG cards for the design team to look to.
>>48065826
I think blue has historically gotten too much attention, but Christ that's stupid. I'd be legit pissed if this was a color or walker I cared about. Is there anything over-worrying about limited formats WON'T ruin?
>>48074947
Someone disagreed with me in a thread about this yesterday, it feels good to be vindicated by Maro himself.
>>48080702
I'm not upset because of blue, I'm upset because we finally have a Bant walker, but she doesn't have Bant abilities. Who knows if we will ever get one again. Now I'm just hoping that Wizards doesn't screw up the Esper and Naya walkers.
>>48080702
It's not limited that they're worrying about, but standard. That there'd be too many monoblue walkers and thus blue would be too good (so instead they print her in the colors that already have a winning deck...?)
>>48080794
Idk, that + 1 seems pretty nifty. Sorry bant buddy.
>>48080799
>limited that they're worrying about, but standard
I'll be honest, I thought standard WAS limited. I guess I shouldn't talk about shit I don't know about, but I think my point still stands.
>>48080799
They printed her in those colors because Tamiyo in red or black is absolutely retarded, and Maro begged to have her included. This card was probably designed months ago, so the current competitive Standard scene wouldn't factor into their decision. I doubt they ever look at the top colors in the format when designing cards to begin with.
>>48080799
>they already had a dominant mono-U Jace in Standard
>they added a substndard mono-U Jace to Standard because Jace
>"Well we can't possibly add a mono-U 'Walker to Standard"
So fucking stupid. And people keep defending this like the decision to add Jace to SOI was somehow out of WotC's hands.
>>48081005
Wizards is not going to pass up an opportunity to shoehorn Jace into a set being that he is the face of Magic. The only reason I can see for him not being in BFZ block is because they were still transitioning into the two set per block format.
>>48065826
>That CMC
>Those abilities
>Survives to bolt
>Comes down with 4 Loyalty
>Can protect herself (sorta)
I fucking love how aggressively costed 3 color cards are.
>>48081460
Let me guess, you're a newer player?
>>48080935
Just like every set, Eldritch Moon's cards were finalized nine months before the set's release (the time since then being used for finalizing art, names/flavor text, and getting shit actually printed).
They would have looked at the top colors in their internal testing, however, which would mean that they completely missed the idea that people would be playing Bant in any form if they thought they could only print a sixth walker in this block if they shoved her in Bant colors.
>>48080935
>They printed her in those colors because Tamiyo in red or black is absolutely retarded, and Maro begged to have her included.
So MaRo doesn't actually run shit? He's just a cuck with no authority?
>I doubt they ever look at the top colors in the format when designing cards to begin with.
So they're retarded?
>>48073440
I think you mean...
>Shellfish
>>48082591
They design sets two years in advanced dipshit, they have no way of knowing what the meta will be like at that point
>>48082591
Maro is head of design. Design is only the first step, Development comes after that and they're the ones that do a lot of the heavy work and format testing and are the ones who get the final say on what's in the set.
Fun fact: When Design turned in the Oath of the Gatewatch file, Support could put +1/+1 counters on creatures AND put loyalty counters on planeswalkers. Development decided that was badwrongfun and turned it into a +1/+1 counter only mechanic.
Development is also why all wraths are now 5+ mana, removal in general has been shifted upwards rarity wise, why Cipher sucked balls, and why Siege Rhino existed at all (it was created to fight first Liliana of the Veil, and then fucking First Response of all things)
>>48082712
Does the FFL still exist or has it been scrapped? If it still did, I'm sure they have some sort of idea of what the metagame would be like, but even then, some things do slip through the cracks.
>>48083564
It still exists.
They miss a whole lot of shit, and always have. Like...I think they've missed almost everything since Theros at least.
>>48069510
it's not detain, it's freeze, which is strictly blue.
detain doesn't tap premanents, and not only forbids them from attacking and blocking, also disallows them from using abilities for a turn
>>48075871
it was literally confirmed that we are getting new Oath cards every block, which means that new planeswalkers are joining the Gatewatch
>>48084463
No, it was confirmed that we'd be getting new Oaths whenever someone joins the Gatewatch, not that someone would join every block.
What they've said is that:
A) For the foreseeable future, every block will contain at least one member of the Gatewatch (not necessarily all of them)
and
B) Whenever someone does join the Gatewatch, they'll get an Oath card.
>>48084463
>literally confirmed
Link? Legitimately curious.
Because that's going to quickly be a LOT of people
>>48084501
>For the foreseeable future, every block will contain at least one member of the Gatewatch (not necessarily all of them)
For example, one block could feature Jace and Chandra, Jace and Liliana, Jace by himself, or Jace and a second Jace.
>>48082712
>They design sets two years in advanced dipshit
>>48085307
Design starts two years in advance.
Development finishes (as in, can't change shit) nine months before the set's release.
>>48085511
And that equates to
>They design sets two years in advanced
how exactly? Dipshit.
>>48075871
Elspeth could not possibly be less B. Fucking Gideon is closer to having some B in him than her.
>>48086679
She's gonna have some B in her when her dead husbando finds her. And by B, I mean benis.
Her +1 is UG like Edric's and her -2 is white like Ajani vengeant's. I don't see the fucking problem.
>>48086917
>Her +1 is UG like Edric's
No it isn't.
>and her -2 is white like Ajani vengeant's
No it isn't.
You fucking suck at Magic.
MaRo's shit is the main reason MTG has become seriously unfun. Nobody at my local store bothers with Standard anymore. With his announcement that all future sets will have one of the Jacetice League featured, I gave up and joined the Legion of Ex-Magic Players!.
>>48067808
Holy shit you're right. People have been waiting for a second Tamiyo, but Wizards fucked her over so Jace could be the star of the block and get his five billionth card.
This pisses me off.
>>48069851
Aside from Chainer. Really I guess it's U/G thanks to Aluren and Dream Halls
![Image[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/QK7ZaGN.jpg "Image[1].png")
>>48088597
related
