Dark Souls Lore Thread: Traditional Gaming Edition.
Please feel free to discuss any theories, speculations or ask any questions you may have about any of the souls games in the trilogy.
Previous thread here: >>47228032
>>47250151
Those Darkwraiths in the swamp are supposed to be on their way to try and kill the Abyss Watchers themselves right?
Also, the demon on top of the bridge, above the wolf, is a very sad guy.
>>47250255
He needs to stop throwing me off a bridge.
>>47250151
Could it be that Aldritch and his religion are trying to contain abyss ?
In DS1 New Londo was flooded to contain four kings, abyss and darkwraiths and it worked pretty well.
Could it be that the great sea covering world means that all sources of abyss get drowned under great masses of water, and can't devour world.
Maybe it's the only way to stop abyss after Flames eventually go out.
>>47250255
Supposedly
>>47250685
Nah, the Deep infusion deals Dark damage, and the Deep sealed in the Cathedral is supposedly full of horrible things. It seems more like it's an even worse version of hte Abyss.
>>47250771
>>47250685
Supposedly it's implied that they're the same thing.
http://00tn2.blogspot.com/2016/04/dark-souls-3.html
The deep 深み The deep / the depths 深み
Abyss 深淵 Abyss 深淵
Deep Sea 深海 Deep Sea 深海 Some people claim this is a mistranslation of abyss. It's not. 深 = deep, 海 = sea, ocean. Straightforward as you can get.
However, the Japanese words for "deep" and "abyss" both do have connotations of water (all the kanji involved use the sanzui-hen, which signifies water).
Deep is 深み, abyss is 深淵, deep sea is 深海. I don't know, looks like they all start with 深 to me.
>>47250771
This. The Abyss is described as being a place of utter stillness, like the calm after death. It's not really desirable to those among the living, but it is nonetheless a form of peace. The Deep, on the other hand, seems to be a place of eldritch horror, something anathema to overall reality. And no one wants that.
was aldrich getting visions frommother kos
I'm really curious to hear what people think about the Profaned Flame. Given that it came from the sky, I would think it would have something to do with the angels, and may be a point that is explored more in the DLC.
>>47250685
I thought the description on the Deacon Robes or some such item noted that originally the cathedral was meant to stand against the deep, but that the order became corrupted over time. That seems to have clear allusions to the Abyss.
>>47250987
Where is your source for it coming from the sky? I haven't heard that before.
>>47250987
we already know who made the Profaned Flame from a source in the previous games
>>47250987
The fire that came from the sky is seperate from the Profaned Flame, if we assume things haven't been mistranslated.
>>47251001
Profaned Flame description:
>Pyromancy deriving from the Profaned Flame.
>Engulfs foes at range and burns them to ashes.
>The Profaned Capital was consumed by fire after Yhorm the Giant became a Lord of Cinder. The fire, born of the sky, is said to have incinerated naught but human flesh.
Then again, I thought Yhorm became a lord of cinder to put the Profaned Flame to rest.
>>47250255
>Those Darkwraiths in the swamp are supposed to be on their way to try and kill the Abyss Watchers themselves right?
Yeah that seems to be the implication. They serve Kaathe and the Abyss, so it makes sense that they'd want it to be free.
>Also, the demon on top of the bridge, above the wolf, is a very sad guy.
Yeah, doing nothing wrong, sickly and dying, holding his post as guardian of the gate long after the bridge was torn apart by the earth shifting and sending Lothric to the top of a mountain, protecting the failing royal family even after everyone stopped caring about him. And then you murder him in cold blood for a ring, or the ability to spit rocks.
>>47250685
Seems more likely to be an evolution of humanity/the Abyss. Dregs are a counterpart to Embers, a remnant of what Humanity once was. Probably what happens to Humanity if left to fester for long enough, while kept contained just enough to prevent another Oolacile.
>>47251001
http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Profaned+Flame
>The Profaned Capital was consumed by fire after Yhorm the Giant became a Lord of Cinder. The fire, born of the sky, is said to have incinerated naught but human flesh.
>>47251003
Seems kinda reaching, imo. Yeah it's possible, but it just rests on an implied parallel between the Witch of Izalith and the Lost Sinner, it's a little flimsy.
>>47251028
He did, AFTER the Profaned Flame started burning his home, but BEFORE it fully incinerated everyone.
>>47250987
I've posted my theory for it a couple of times. >>47198148
You people have probably already discussed this to death, but I haven't been to these threads before so I'll throw in my little two cents on the Rosaria situation that I've been thinking about
All of Leonhard's gear describes his dedication to "the goddess," most obviously implied to be Rosaria
But it doesn't specifically mention her by name
His sickle, however, says it's imbued with the power of the moon and that he received it for pledging his service to "the goddess"
Given that none of the items you get from Rosaria have any moon relation whatsoever, I would have to say it's more likely Leonhard pledged himself to Gwyndolin at some point and got from her the task to save Rosaria, whether Rosaria was Gertrude or Gwynevere or whoever you theorize it might be
He started off bringing her tongues and recruiting other fingers to do the same to comfort her, as the tongues' description says, but witnessed Heysel turn into a grub and decided he'd had enough
He kills her, takes her soul to Gwynevere's chamber (which is why I personally favor her being Gwynevere rather than Gertrude), and calls you a monster for rebirthing yourself because he's seen that rebirthing does literally turn you into a monster
>>47251080
It actually doesn't, because the Profaned Flame is explicitly NOT the Chaos of Izalith. I never bought into the Lost Sinner = Witch of Izalith theory.
>>47251086
Leonhard made the same mistake a lot of lore shitters on youtube make: thinking Rosaria is Gwynevere when she obviously isn't.
>>47251086
Thinking a bit on it, it's possible Leonhard was some kind of distant relative of the Gwyn family and was a Darkmoon long before the events of DaS3 (y'know, what with Gwyndolin having already been eaten by the start of the game and all)
He may have pledged himself and gotten the sickle, but later abandoned the Darkmoons when everything went to shit
Maybe even got burned in the process by those fire-shooting deacons or Pontiff's flame sword
Then he goes looking around for rebirth, finds Rosaria, realizes she's somebody important because he's royalty, etc.
>>47251138
wrong thread? /dsg/ is over on /vg/.
>>47251175
my bad
>>47251086
You literally find Getrude's corpse in the grand archives guarded by her knights. Rosaria is Gwynevere.
>>47251086
>Rosaria was Gertrude
That one's kind of easy to shoot down, cause Gertrude is said to have been stored in that cage in the Archives, the one with a bunch of shed feathers in it, and Rosaria doesn't have any sign of wings or feathers. Could argue that she just remade herself, as she does for her followers, but seems more likely that they're separate people.
Her soul can be transposed to Bountiful Sunlight, "Special Miracle granted by the Princess of Sunlight", key words 'granted by', implies it was given to Rosaria rather than produced by her.
"The goddess" could also refer to Yorshka. She's a crossbreed, but still a god, and the current leader of the Darkmoon covenant. Gwyndolin was raised as a girl, but is still referred to as a god, male, in item descriptions.
He also never intended to be reborn himself ever, evidenced by the description for his mask. He's probably not unfamiliar to what happens to people who ask to be reborn too many times, since the entire area is populated with man-grubs, and he shows no kind of friendship towards Heysel, so I doubt her grubbification would be the one that pushes him over the edge. Could be he always intended to betray Rosaria, and was just waiting for the last of her defenders, Heysel and Kirk, to become useless grubs or be killed by someone else, before taking her soul.
The fact that he's a parallel for Lautrec kind of goes without saying. Maybe he thought he could restore Gwynevere with Rosaria's soul? he hates Rosaria the person, but finds her soul to be precious.
>>47251123
>It actually doesn't, because the Profaned Flame is explicitly NOT the Chaos of Izalith. I never bought into the Lost Sinner = Witch of Izalith theory.
The sinner inherited the witch's soul, but aside from that, the cat tells you that the sinner ALSO tried to make her own replica of the first flame, but her version never showed up in DkS2 (we only saw the old chaos which is the Chaos Flame). The Japanese name of the profaned flame is the Sinner's Flame.
what happened to flame god flan?
>>47251123
>the Profaned Flame is explicitly NOT the Chaos of Izalith
Yeah I know, and that's why I think it's a third thing, seperate from the First Flame and Chaos Flame yet still tangentially related to them.
>>47251266
Says she tried, not that she had anything to show for her efforts. There's no evidence that she actually produced any kind of flame.
>The Japanese name of the profaned flame is the Sinner's Flame
More accurately, "Flame of Sin", I believe, and the "City of Sin" for Profaned Capital. Makes it sound more related to the First Sin, ie. the linking of the flame.
>>47251266
Didn't the Sinner have the Witch's soul because of that bug that crawls into her eye and makes her go full rage mode?
>>47251320
First Sin/Original Sin is its own special word in Japanese IIRC so it's different from sin/sinner.
>>47251086
Isn't Leonhard described as once being one of the deacons of the deep, who abandoned that for his devotion to Rosaria? The Archdeacon Skirt seems to point towards that.
>>47251318
He's living a comfy life with Gwynevere far away from all these shenanigans.
>>47251318
>>47251324
More likely she had the soul as part of her efforts to relight the fire. The scorpion is just an aesthetic thing, like she's been there so long she has bugs crawling all over and inside her.
>>47251338
Oh really? That'd poke some holes in my theory, so interesting in that's the case, but I can't find anything confirming that, looks like 00tn2 never covered the stuff added in SotFS.
>>47251387
The bug does look like the bug from Bed of Chaos though.
Please don't tell me that picture's from Lords of the Fallen
>>47251250
Yeah, I personally don't subscribe to the Gertrude version of the theory, but I was just throwing it in because it's something I've heard other people talk about and it doesn't make much difference to me either way.
>>47251257
>key words 'granted by'
This is something interesting actually. The Dancer's soul can be used to make the other Princess Guard miracle, and that one reads it was granted to Gwynevere's handmaidens, whereas the Rosaria miracle just says it was granted by Gwynevere.
I figure if both were given to handmaidens, they'd have just copy pasted the descriptions, but they didn't, which I confirmation-bias my way into thinking suggests it's Gwynevere.
>He also never intended to be reborn himself ever
He did though.
>Crescent Moon Sickle
>Leonhard set out on a journey of rebirth, but decided instead to serve the goddess as a knight, and inherited this weapon.
Note the juxtaposition
He sought out rebirth, BUT ended up serving "the goddess" instead
People who get rebirthed by Rosaria already serve the goddess, there's no "but" there
However, say he went looking for rebirth, decided to hit up Anor Londo because deities used to live there, and met Gwyndolin who told him "this rebirth shit is whack, go save Rosaria"
And to back up my Lthat idea, Rosaria's fingers aren't called knights, Darkmoons are called knights
I will agree it could just as easily be Yorshka as Gwyndolin, but I think it's somewhat irrelevant which one of them it is, more relevant is just the part where he pledged himself to whatever moon-related waifu was around at the time and became an undercover Darkmoon
Some people also do refer to Gwyndolin as a goddess, a lot of them say "Lady Gwyndolin" or "Mistress Gwyndolin" (namely the Anor Londo firekeeper in DaS1)
Also, side note with no real relevance but it's just interesting, you do find a grub on the rafters right by Gertrude's corpse, for whatever the hell that might mean
>>47251341
It does say one of the deacons revered her, but I think it's too hard to assume it's Leonhard based just on that versus all the things which suggest other theories.
I'd say it's unlikely that Leonhard was both royalty AND an archdeacon of the cathedral.
>>47251424
pc cuck get the fuck out
not knowing the best boss from the best game of the series
>>47251528
Demons Souls isn't canon in the Dark Souls universe.
>>47251424
pls
It's from Demon's Souls.
And it vaguely resembles one of the chaos bugs that gets Solaire, but not THE Chaos Bug, which looks more like a curled up larva. Plus The Chaos Bug was canonically slain by the Chosen Undead.
>>47251436
>I figure if both were given to handmaidens, they'd have just copy pasted the descriptions
I can kind of buy that, but I still think if Rosaria was supposed to be Gwynevere they'd just say "Miracle of Gwynevere" rather than "granted by". I think it's entirely possible she's a daughter of Gwynevere, promiscuous as she is, and Sulyvhan had her imprisoned there. Gwynevere's implied to be pretty damn powerful, being a direct child of Gwyn, I don't think Sulyvhan, for all his power, would be able to capture her. But this is getting further and further into almost baseless speculation, so I'm personally inclined to just shrug it away as "any possibility is possible".
>He did though.
Ah yeah, I missed that. I was going by the Silver Mask description.
>In his youth, Leonhard suffered grave burns to his entire body. His face in particular, which he hid beneath his mask, was terribly scalded.
>He abstained from restoring these injuries, even after becoming a Finger of Rosaria.
So yeah, sounds like he intended to, then later changed his mind, probably after seeing what happens to people are continually reborn by Rosaria's hand.
>and met Gwyndolin who told him "this rebirth shit is whack, go save Rosaria"
I agree with you that he very likely became an undercover Darkmoon, with the moon sickle and being called a knight, and that's why I think Rosaria is RELATED to Gwynevere, but not actually her. Gwyn's family is all pretty self-protective, makes sense that they'd want her bought to Anor Londo.
>"Mistress Gwyndolin" (namely the Anor Londo firekeeper in DaS1)
http://darksouls.wikidot.com/lady-of-the-darkling
>When killed
>… Master Gwyndolin…
I'm not going to stop posting my stupid shit no matter how dead the thread is
To continue with throwing Leonhard at the wall and seeing what sticks:
Say Leonhard was part of the royal family in Irithyll, hung around that area a lot, maybe wandered up to Anor Londo at times and palled around with Gwyndolin
Maybe became a Darkmoon as he got older
Then one day old pal Pontiff makes his bid for power
Suddenly big fat blob Aldrich is eating people left and right
Remember, Horace goes crazy in an area RIGHT before the entrance to Irithyll, and his equipment says
>Horace is one of only two children to escape Aldrich's clutches
So who's the other child?
Maybe Leonhard
Say Leonhard and Horace both live in Irithyll when Aldrich shows up, and the two of them are the only humans to escape
Aldrich is shown to have fire powers, explaining Leonhard's burns, and Horace never shows any of his body, while his equipment says he found comfort in his armor being "cold"
Horace may have been just as, if not more, burned up than Leonhard
Maybe Horace got the worst of it, which is why he won't even speak and goes crazy even approaching Irithyll, whereas Leonhard seems to have lost it a bit but not gone completely insane/hollow
Then later when Leonhard takes Rosaria's soul to Gwynevere's chamber, it's also him getting his revenge on Aldrich
No I don't take this as fact at all and it's just some shit I threw together but hey what else are these threads for if not bullshitting until you get something decent
>>47251612
My mistake, I don't have the dialogue from DaS1 memorized despite playing the game a thousand times
I'm positive Gwyndolin is referred to as a woman by at least one character at some point though, unless that's me being in denial about wanting to bang men again
>>47251693
The other child is Anri.
>>47251764
The other child is clearly Sans.
>>47251764
Gonna need some explanation on that one mang
I don't know of any dialogue or item descriptions that suggest that
The two are close friends but I don't know that that's much to base Anri being the second child on
>>47251819
She says she's doing it for the children in Yorshka church because she was there with the others and escaped.
>>47251722
Someone who actually KNOWS much of anything about Gwyndolin, though?
>>47251819
They're incredibly close - it's not outrageous to assume they went through something horrific together.
Anri is focused entirely on Aldrich. Their storyline does not extend to any of the other Lords of Cinder.
"For the children I knew" - Aldrich's other meals who weren't so lucky.
>>47251846
She?
>>47251846
>she
>>47251722
I'm entirely open to be being proven wrong, but gotta have dat evidence to back it up.
>>47251693
>but hey what else are these threads for if not bullshitting until you get something decent
Couldn't agree more.
Leonhard being the other child is an interesting thought, and I like the idea of his burns coming from Sulyvhan. Not a whole lot supporting it, but a cool idea.
>>47251884
He was obviously burned by Jester Thomas.
>>47251922
Maybe that motherfucker is the result of the Lost Sinner's attempts to create another flame. Witch of Izalith spawned demons, Lost Sinner spawned fucking Satan incarnate.
>>47251853
Yeah, I think it's more likely Anri is the other child. It's easy, but it works.
>>47251846
I don't know of when he/she says this. Maybe I missed something but not even the wiki is showing any dialogue like that.
>>47251853
I can see that, and I kinda like the idea, but if he/she and Horace are close friends he/she could just be attempting to get revenge for Horace, not necessarily for the both of them.
I'll say it's a lot more simple and therefore more likely than my idea, but Anri doesn't necessarily have to be the second child in order to want to kill the giant evil blob monster that ate an entire city of people.
>>47251951
>>47251922
do NOT remind me
>>47251972
>I don't know of when he/she says this. Maybe I missed something but not even the wiki is showing any dialogue like that.
http://darksouls3.wikidot.com/anri-of-astora
>In Irithyll of the Boreal Valley, by the Church of Yorshka bonfire
>Oh, I thought it might be you. Good to see you.
>I never managed to find Horace.
>But my duty must be done, even alone. As an unkindled Lordseeker.
>For the children I knew, bless their souls.
Wikidot was slow to start, but they've become pretty comprehensive.
>>47251951
>>47251972
But Anri is supposedly from Astora. Why would she be a child from Irithyl?
>>47252006
No, she took the Astora style and name. Astora is long destroyed.
>>47252006
From the Elite Knight set.
>The mere mention of Astora invoked wistful pangs, and perhaps it was such a dream that drew Anri to this faraway home known only by name
Astoria is long since destroyed. She wasn't born in Astora, she just went there, made it her home, took up the name.
>>47252006
People were being kidnapped and sent via the road of sacrifices to the Cathedral of the Deep to be Aldrich food. That's what the children were.
>>47252019
>>47252036
Even then,
> Dialogue at Firelink Shrine after defeating Deacons of the Deep
>"Oh. And we meet again. We spoke before on the road of sacrifices. Anri of Astora. I am well pleased to see you safe. We reached the Cathedral of the Deep, but Aldrich's coffin was empty. The man-eater must have left for his true home. The little doll in the empty coffin told me. Aldrich is said to hail from Irithyll in the Boreal Valley, an ancient fabled city..."
It doesn't sound like she was ever there at all.
I'm going to interject in the middle of this and say that Yuria's knowledge of Anri, even to the fact that Anri is actually hollow, suggests Anri could be from Londor originally
But Anri never acknowledges Yuria or knows anything of her plan
It seems like there's a lot to Anri that goes unsaid, considering taking his/her soul is enough to be able to usurp the flame
>>47252191
Seems more to me like you're stealing their darksign/curse power.
>>47252191
>called "Anri of Astora"
>from Londor
>>47252191
Yuria also knows that Orbeck of VINHEIM is hollow even though he doesn't look it at all.
>>47252249
Not to agree with that guy, buy >>47252036 seems to indicate she was originally from elsewhere. In fact that sounds to me like she's never even been there.
Wish the translation blog guy could look this up, shame he's not updating because of the plebbit cancer.
>>47252319
Yeah, Anri is originally from somewhere else, ended up going to Astora following the stories and legends of old heroes from there. Ended up taking the name Anri of Astora to emulate those old heroes.
>>47252261
From the way she says it, and from Orbeck's character in general, I think she was just straight up lying about that.
A new sorceror shows up in Firelink and suddenly she goes "THAT GUY'S TRYING TO TAKE YOUR PLACE, HE WANTS TO BE THE HOLLOW KING, GO KILL HIM ASAP."
Whereas Orbeck just seems like a generally nice guy with a shady past he's trying to move on from, and learn some cool spells while he's at it.
Anri she doesn't really have reason to lie about though, and Anri shows up in the usurpation ending as a hollow. And since Anri is implied to not really be from Astora, he/she could be from anywhere, whereas Orbeck specifically talks about his time in the Vinheim dragon school.
>>47252242
Yeah, you get his/her three dark sigils to give you a total of eight. But unkindled don't naturally hollow, they can only hollow when they've purposely taken the dark sigil from someone with the power to give it like Yoel could.
And the only people known to be able to give people dark sigils are from Londor.
So Anri HAS to have at least met and chummed around with someone from Londor who had it in their power to grant people dark sigils.
>>47252371
From how the handmaiden is able to produce new items from the ashes of characters, and Londor is quite sorcery-influenced, might be that Yuria wants Orbeck's ashes to make new spells, and she just feeds you the "he'll try to take your rightful place!" line as motivation?
>>47252410
Maybe she got them from the pilgrim "leading" her from Irithyll onward.
>>47252447
Makes sense, though the timing is a little weird.
Yuria first mentions her friend helping out Anri after you talk to Anri in the catacombs and says "he/she is hollow," suggesting it's already happened.
If just having the dark sigil by itself means you're already hollow then the phrasing makes sense though.
If that's the case, then it would actually explain specifically the choice by From of where/when in the game to put Anri.
If Anri is nobody special and Yuria just decided to sacrifice whatever random opposite-of-your-sex person to walk into Firelink, then obviously Anri has to come as one of the earlier NPCs you meet.
And depending on how you interpret the Untended Graves Firelink, the Firekeeper and Andre might not even be real people.
This obviously is kind of weak though since Greirat, Irina, and Eygon can all show up before Anri does, but then that comes down to arguing convenience for From to just have one dedicated character that's always your opposite sex and is always the one to be sacrificed.
So whether or not Anri is actually someone special ends up as an argument over game design efficiency which is lame.
>>47252418
While Yurias religion is probably bullshit i dont think she is dishonest like that. She is a true believer. If you do the hollow ending and then go kill Yuria she lets you do it. She doesent resist at all.
When you do Orbecks quest his corpse is hollow so he does have the dark sign.
>>47251853
If Anri was one of the children that escaped from Aldrich, why did he/she need a pilgrim to tell them that Aldrich was from Irithyll and give them directions?
>>47252706
Because the cathedral was Aldriches home.
>>47252706
Just because you're being fed to a hideous blob monster doesn't mean you know it's life story. Aldrich spent most of his time in the Cathedral of the Deep, remember?
So I haven't seen much if any theories on the Mound Makers does anyone have any tasty lore about them and what their whole deal is?
>>47253004
They're all Gwynevere. Just like how Gertrude is both Rosaria and Gwynevere. Everone in Dark Souls 3 is Gwynevere.
I'm right because I can make tenuous links to vague lore that don't make sense when looked at critically.
>>47253070
Someone sounds mad that he doesn't have any good theories
>>47253004
There's not a whole lot in regards to lore outside the ties to Sirris through Hodrick. They're mainly a gameplay thing.
>>47253099
None of the theories in Dark Souls 3 are good.
Just like how none of the theories in 2 or 1 were good.
This is the same level of "No Ornstein is totally Gwyn's firstborn guys seriously." type shit people were doing five years ago.
>>47253134
I was under the impression that Ornstien was Smough's clone in disguise and that Smough was Aldrich.
>>47253134
Y'know most people in the thread are being nice and posting their own theories, no matter how dumb they might be five years from now, instead of shitposting about how everyone else sucks and is dumb except for you
>>47253160
It all makes sense this way.
>>47253166
That.
You know you're right. I'll make an attempt to be more constructive with criticisms next time rather than just shitposting.
I've always been really confused about whether or not the undead/unkindled are supposed to crumble to dust or leave corpses behind when they're killed. The entire point of throwing the cursed undead into the Asylum or putting them in cages or any of the other practices for dealing with throughout the series, I always assumed that was because if you killed them they crumbled to dust and then respawned like the player character does.
But certain characters like Anri, who introduces herself as "Unkindled, like you," will leave corpses behind as part of their plotlines if they die.
On that note, isn't the whole point of the cursed undead that they keep reanimating until they lose hope, and then go Hollow when they do? There's a bunch of NPCs throughout the games, especially in DSIII, who are supposed to be undead or unkindled who just die permanently if something bad happens to them. Siegward of Catarina, for example, seems to be an incredibly spirited man as well as an Unkindled when you first encounter him but from what I've read if he dies in the fight against the demon that's the last you ever see of him.
>>47253490
The line between lore and gameplay consideration gets blurry when you start questioning things like that. I mean it's pretty fairly demonstrated that undead can be permanently put down, like Siegmeyer was by his daughter, and like you do to the Undead Legion, but what causes permanent death isn't really certain.
>>47253531
Maybe it's dismembering? The saws and shit in the Undead Settlement, would seem to suggest that as one way of dealing with undead.
>>47253709
Possibly. That'd fit in with the Cinders of Lords being decapitated heads.
>>47252730
>>47252745
Here's just me spitballing, but this is how I read Anri and Horace's story.
>Anri and Horace are two kids being brought to the Cathedral of the Deep as snack-rifices.
>Horace does something to engender Anri's trust, and gets his tongue/vocal cords fucked up (Probably from a rosaria's finger).
>They manage to escape before Aldritch eats them.
>Years later, Anri and Horace set up on a quest to go kill Aldritch and avenge their fallen snack-friends.
>Along the way, they meet a pilgrim like Yoel who gives them the darksign. Unbeknownst to them, the pilgrim keeps following them under a contingency plan from the Yuria/the Sable Church (Hey look, a relatively powerful unkindled, lets put tabs on them)
>Gameplay occurs, they find out aldritch booked it.
>By the time they reach the catacombs, Horace hollows out, because dark sigils and finding out that Aldritch is in, as far as he can tell, fucking narnia.
>Meanwhile, Yuria tells the spy to make for the kill, she's got a brand new Lord of Hollows in the making.
>Now plotline split: If you save Anri, they go up to fight Aldritch, hoping Horace shows up. He doesn't, and you help them kill Aldritch. However, now without purpose and now a hollow because of the pilgrim's sigils, Anri treks back to the cathedral and hollows out on the way, or finds Horace's body and hollows out.
>If you let anri get ganked, you take their sigils and ascend as the dark lord. Now as a hollow with the power of the first flame, you can bring back anri just fine, and rule over the everything.
>>47253885
One problem- Anri, and possibly Horace, is an unkindled too, and unkindled are ressurrected from the dead to bring back the runaway lords of cinder.
>>47253993
I'm thinking then that they died and became unkindled later on. ACUTALLY that might be where horace lost his tongue. They get ganked by a finger (Probably Leonhard, because) and get stone cold murdered. When they get brought back, he still doesn't have the tongue, because covenant rules and lacking the ashes.
>>47253490
>>47253709
>>47253723
It might be that there's a stage of hollowing so advance you just stop acting entirely and essentially become a corpse. Take the cages in the Undead Settlement that don't move for example, even though they were used to contain Undead. Plus, the corpses in Irithyll Dungeon that briefly reanimate and scream at you if you take their items. Maybe lots of the corpses you encounter in the series are just Undead who've advanced to such a severe stage of mental and physical decay they don't even act aggressively anymore.
I'm pretty sure a lot of the item descriptions of stuff you find in the Undead Settlement and Cathedral of the Deep also indicate that the more you butcher an Undead, the longer it takes for them to come back to life.
Of course, as >>47253531 says, it's hard to draw the line between lore and gameplay a lot of the time. And From just kind of forgets that the Undeads' whole shtick is reviving endlessly when it comes to NPCs.
You know, we ought to get a wiki or pastebin or something going to put together stuff that's been discussed and agreed upon enough (like Aldia's involvement with Lothric)
>>47254126
There's already soulslore.wikidot.com but I don't know who manages and contributes to that.
>>47254126
But that's the thing
>agreed upon enough
There is no such thing. People still argue endlessly over DaS1 lore, let alone DaS3. For example,
>Aldia's involvement with Lothric
I personally don't buy this. I don't deny that such a connection is possible, because I think the Soul Stream description is meant to bring Aldia to mind, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's anything more than a neat reference, nor would I try to find a place for Aldia in Lothric's lore.
>>47254121
There's other stuff as well.
Items like the Undead Bone Shard and the like pretty well indicate that eventually undead do become corpses.
My bet is that eventually even Hollows lose the will to act, and eventually just stop. Hell, Hollows might simply still have some will to live and desire souls, just not enough to remain sane. So an Undead could even possibly simply skip past Hollow to just dead.
>>47254162
>>47254126
I think it'd be useful for agreed upon things and contended points. Just somewhere to document things that have been discussed, and linking to evidence to support any arguments.
>>47253993
Given that they're Unkindled, they probably got brought back round the time that Aldrich did. The Unkindled are apparently supposed to be people who failed to light the fire (unfit even for cinders etc.) and all that.
It's kind of interesting how there's almost like there's a designated Unkindled for every Lord of Cinder, really. Anri and Horace for Aldritch, Hawkwood for the Abyss Watchers, and Siegward for Yhorm. The princes are off doing their own thing and have apparently killed a few Unkindled by the time you show up if their dialogue is any indication.
Then again, who knows. The timeline for Dark Souls 3 is complicated enough without bringing Lordran's timey-wimey bullshit and Lothric's converging transient lands into the mixture. (Carthus is a desert kingdom! What the hell are the Catacombs doing underneath Darkroot Garden?)
Yhorm came before Aldritch, since the Pontiff found the ruins of the Profaned Capital and whatnot, and the princes are probably the most recent Lord of Cinder, but how much time is supposed to have passed between each linking of the fire? There was a thousand years between Gwyn and the Chosen Undead, but I guess it's gotten a lot shorter since then.
Did Pontiff Sullyvahn send out his Outriders after the bells tolled or before it? How long has Irythill's seeming invasion of Lothric gone on?
>>47254235
>The princes are off doing their own thing
They're not lords of cinder so they don't count
>>47254263
>They're not lords of cinder
>they have a throne for a Lord of Cinder
>they're part of the ritual to link the fire
>they drop Cinders of a Lord
Sure thing buddy. Everything else points to a Lord of Cinder being one with the potential to link the fire, and named as such, whether they actually do or not.
>>47254352
Holy shit thank you
I am tired of this
>Lothric is not a Lord of Cinder
meme
>Just wanted to give the firekeeper her eyes
>She wants me to kill her
>>47254400
That's what they all want, some are just too shy to say it out loud.
>>47254352
>Everything else points to a Lord of Cinder being one with the potential to link the fire,
You mean literally nothing, and how it's contradicted by how the game actually says you have to link the fire to be counted as one?
>they have a throne for a Lord of Cinder
There's a throne for the Holy King of Lothric.
>they're part of the ritual to link the fire
The Lothric royalty lineage is bred to link the fire. Lothric has the power to do so but didn't,
>they drop Cinders of a Lord
Shit translation at work again.
Check 2chan and Futaba, everyone agrees that Lothric is not a lord of cinder, because the game says so itself.
>>47254398here's your reply shitposter-kun :^)
>>47254416
But I just want to love her
>>47254352
>Everything else points to a Lord of Cinder being one with the potential to link the fire,
The opening says the Lords are people who came back to life while there's no indication that the princes ever died (in fact Lothric probably abandoned his duty BECAUSE he wants to stay alive) while not showing them, and Hawkwood confirms that the Lords of Cinder are the ones who previously linked the fire. Emma also says that the Lords have all left in the castle while the princes are kind of right there in the castle.
>>47254425
That's what the Doll is for, silly.
>>47254400
sherespawns, she just wants you to take away the eyes that are causing her distress. she'll revert to her regular dialogue when you do, as if nothing happened.
>>47254352
hawkwood says the lords of cinder are people who linked the flame before though
>>47254398
>>47254445
Take your retarded headcanon back to fanfiction.net where it belongs.
>>47254446
Doll is formotherlylove though
>>47254460
>>47254445
>with the mettle to link the fire
Doesn't mean they DID link the fire, just that they have the potential to.
And Aldrich, Hawkwood says "they stuck him in the Cathedral" and then was MADE a Lord of Cinder, so plenty to imply that he never linked the fire either.
>>47254419
>the game actually says you have to link the fire to be counted as one?
Nice source.
>There's a throne for the Holy King of Lothric.
For which Prince Lothric has the potential to be, as proven by the fact that his cinders are successfully used when the Ashen One links the fire.
>Lothric has the power to do so but didn't,
Yes, that's my point. He was bred and raised as a Lord of Cinder, the only part he balked on was actually linking the fire.
>Shit translation at work again.
How is them dropping an item a mistranslation?
>Check 2chan and Futaba
Unless the Japanese text explicitly states them as not being Lords of Cinder, the Japanese audience's interpretation is as subjective as yours, mine and everyone elses.
>>47254352
>>47254398
>>47254419
The Lords of Cinder are the people who link the fire of an age. Abyss Watchers, Aldrich, and Yhorm are the Lords of previous ages, while Prince Lothric was born to link the fire of this age. It's because he abandoned his duty that the other Lords of Cinder are resurrected. He never become a Lord.
>>47254542
>And Aldrich, Hawkwood says "they stuck him in the Cathedral" and then was MADE a Lord of Cinder, so plenty to imply that he never linked the fire either.
Oh it's this retard again.
>>47254419
>>47254445
>hurr durr he has a different opinion he must be shit posting
>Have a second, firey form - just like all the other Lords of Cinder
>Literally says 'LORD OF CINDER DEFEATED'
>Drops Cinders of a Lord
>Have a throne in Firelink Shrine
>there's no indication that the princes ever died
'This spot marks our grave'
If Lothric had not already linked the Fire then the aim of the Unkindled would be vastly different. All he would need to do is go and drag Lothric back to Firelink shrine, or kill him and take his souls and then link the Fire in his stead. The point of Dark Souls 3 is that the world has gone to such shit and lost so much power that they've had to start recycling old Lords of Cinder. If there was a perfectly fit candidate for linking the fire then you wouldn't have to go round up the other three fuckers.
Yes, some item descriptions say the Princes refused to link the fire. They also say that the princes fled 'far, far away.' Their bedroom is not 'far, far away.' The Princes refused to link the fire in the past, ran away, then were forced to link the fire anyway in an as of yet unknown part of the story.
Plus, Lothric was raised to be a Lord of Cinder, but that cannot be something that happened recently, because almost literally everyone in Lothric is Hollow.
>>47254497
I've read enough doujins to know the two are not mutually exclusive.
>>47254542
>Unless the Japanese text explicitly states them as not being Lords of Cinder, the Japanese audience's interpretation is as subjective as yours, mine and everyone elses.
Considering they argue over almost every single other thing I'm going to assume that the English version mangled stuff again.
>>47254562
Dunno why you have to be so hostile over a fucking video game.
>>47254583
FrogNation are far from perfect, but they usually get the main point across, it's usually just some minor nuance that gets lost in translation. This is hardly a point of contention, though, it's one piece of flavor text versus every other point that's been mentioned.
>>47254542
>And Aldrich, Hawkwood says "they stuck him in the Cathedral" and then was MADE a Lord of Cinder, so plenty to imply that he never linked the fire either.
>>47254616
>lost in translation
I want to take a moment to correct a common theme around lore—that issue of "lost in translation." Notably, I want to counter the idea that somehow English as a language lacks subtlety and the general fetishizing of the Japanese descriptions. There is a consistent theme among those interested in the lore that the Japanese version of the game represents the direct transmission from the mind of Miyazaki and therefore is "definitive," while all other versions are "derivative." This is reflected in the "lost in translation" theme that occurs within the fandom, and the consistent reflection that "the subtlety of Japanese is lost when translated into English." This opinion has been strengthened by members of content community like ENB, who lived in Japan and speaks Japanese, and VaatiVidya, who does not speak Japanese but has produced videos on the topic of translation; it is also strengthened by Japanese reading and speaking members of the subreddits providing translations of material, and the inevitable responses from others that read to the tune of, "Wow! That totally explains it; the English version really sucks."
Since I'm not an expert on Japanese, I'll simply say that, from what I've read, Japanese does have a rich vocabulary. It's richness is in part due to its mimetic aspects, meaning that it has sounds that are symbolic of the things in the real world. Thus, it has a feeling of being deeply poetic, capturing the natural and phenomenal world in a way that other languages might use adjectives or adverbs. Thus, a single Japanese word can likely capture an entire poetic sense that could only be done in two or three words in English. This is an important aspect of the language, and can explain why many people feel like the Japanese language is "richer."
(con.)
>>47254616
>>47254661
In spite of the claims by content creators, the English content of Dark Souls is often very rich and even potentially ambiguous. The challenge that we face is that, in many cases, English speakers have a poor command of the various definitions of certain words, often choosing the most common definition of a term and assuming that it is the only one. It is also true that most English speakers are unaware of the etymology of English words, and the way in which this etymology can nuance an understanding of a term. As a non-Souls example, the term awful now means something disgusting, revolting, or not to one's liking. However, an archaic definition is inspiring wonder or fear. This mean comes from the root sense of "awe-full" - the Old English root awu meaning terror, dread, or great reverence, and passing through the lens of later Biblical references related to being in the presence of God.
An obvious argument is that I'm "over-reaching" and making too many assumptions about the intentions of the translation. However, the argument can be reflected back into the community that is overemphasizing the richness of Japanese! My point in making this argument is that English can communicate a great deal of richness. Knowing the multiple definitions of a term, the etymology of terms, and the cultural history of the term can produce a great deal of nuance. While it is great to be intrigued by the Japanese text, fetishizing it ignores the richness that exists in the English version. While the fandom may intrinsically interested in the Japanese as a foreign language, I don't think we can ignore the richness and robustness in English and the ways in which it can enrich our interpretation of the game.
>>47254400
She eventually comes to want it though, to see the world that her eyes show her.
And there's the implication that even the Abyss might not be forever, which perhaps means that not linking the fire might ultimately be a good thing.
>>47254680
>>47254616
I am definitely of the opinion that the Japanese-English translation in the Souls series is so far quite top notch, though the series doesn't frankly have that much text to translate to begin with compared to 'wordier' games in this day and age.
It irritates me greatly when I hear people complain about how 'the subtlety' of the Japanese language is lost when translated into English, as if English as a language doesn't have subtleties or linguistic 'beauty' to it. There are many cases in the series so far where the English equivalent is far more subtle/meaningful/beautiful/poetic or simply 'better sounding' than the original Japanese text.
As a native Korean speaker, a language that is far closer to Japanese than English, not to mention that we share many roots in using Chinese characters and their vocabulary, it gives me a pretty interesting insight into how the text is translated from Japanese into Korean/English. I am only a very little fluent in Japanese, but know enough to get the rough feeling of the language. It's also very interesting seeing the Dark Souls communities of each respective language-spheres reach completely different conclusion/speculation, sometimes due to translation issues, other times simply because of 'cultural differences', from the same source material.
Digressing a bit, Dark Souls 2 had some of the best translations at the same time in the series, IMO, with some amazing word choices as well as very curious choices that personally never made sense to me.
Going back to Dark Souls 3, I think the translation is mostly spot-on so far, there haven't really been any specific translation issue that made me scratch my head wondering what they really meant/intended.
Let's forget the "aldrich didn't link the fire" shitposter and laugh at this hilarious shit instead
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0ByGsar3OSMRYRjYwNWpfbndoeW8&usp=drive_web#
>I didn't play the games and don't understand Japanese but I'm going to write a book on DaS3 lore by watching japanese streams and translating them! ^_^
>>47254642
He's demonstrably against the idea of linking the fire - it's his entire thing, it's what the religion he leads is built upon. So he definitely wouldn't do it willingly. And it's incredibly unlikely that he could be FORCED to link the fire, just look at all the shit someone has to go through to do it willingly.
His cinders say
>Aldrich became a lord by devouring men, but was disillusioned with his throne
Both references to the status of a Lord of Cinder, being a lord and having a throne, and without having linked the fire. There's potential argument to be made that "lord" there isn't capitalized as it is everywhere else, but he's not called a lord in any other context, so I'm inclined to believe that this is what it means. I'm not saying "he definitely didn't link the fire", but there's evidence to support the possibility.
>>47254744
>>47254680
>>47254661
I don't think that stuff gets 'lost in translation' as a result of English being 'less intricate' or whatever compared to Japanese, but just as a result of translation between two such distinct languages being an imperfect science, and the translator's own thoughts impacting the resulting translation. Like, if you have two people who are fluent in Japanese and English and ask them to translate any given text, there's every chance that their translations might differ.
Japanese is Greek to me, I couldn't express any personal direct opinion on the quality of the translation, but from secondary sources like the Lost in Translation blogspot, I'd agree that it does seem like they've done a good job. And I'm also not advocating for taking one version of the text over the other, but I do think it's worth looking at both, using them both to determine any given answers where ambiguities may arise.
>>47254845
Giving potential theories with reasonable evidence to back them up is shitposting, but insulting people and linking to people's ideas 4 teh lulz is decent contribution? Aight.
>>47254873
>>47254847
>>47254847
It would be needlessly convulted and contradictory if Aldrich hadn't linked the fire.
>Cinders of a Lord
>Has a throne
>Has a fire mode
>Has a grave
>Lord of Cinder defeated
>He's demonstrably against the idea of linking the fire - it's his entire thing, it's what the religion he leads is built upon. So he definitely wouldn't do it willingly.
The thing is though we have the meta knowledge to conclude the Deep is related to the Dark, but we don't know if the Cathedral of the Deep knows that. They might not know that linking the fire is not beneficial to the Deep. And/or Aldrich's vision of the Age of the Deep Sea might not have come about until after he was resurrected by the Bell of Awakening.
Furthermore, Aldrich might have a lot of raw power, but when he's just a big fat blob he might not actually be capable of doing much. Maybe the Deacons were able to force him to link the fire against his will. This is tenuous at best, but the way how descriptions and characters often say people were 'fed' to Aldrich could be taken as implication that he didn't have much agency after sludging out. Plus, when we fight him, he uses Gwyndolin's body to attack, rather than his own sludge.
And, even a high level player can be taken out when ganked by enough shitty enemies. And there are a lot of Deacons.
And this is why >>47254126 is a bad idea. There's always one or two crazy contrarians running about insisting that a solid theory is obviously wrong, or that their theory which openly contradicts everything the game says has to be right.
>>47254162
>I personally don't buy this. I don't deny that such a connection is possible, because I think the Soul Stream description is meant to bring Aldia to mind, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's anything more than a neat reference, nor would I try to find a place for Aldia in Lothric's lore.
Why?
We have
-The FIRST of the SCHOLARS teaching ALDIA'S sorcery
-People covering their heads in wax possibly to emulate the burning wax head of the first scholar
-Statues of a weird goop tree head person
-Dragon research
-Fake dragons
-Fake dragons guarding the HQ of the scholars
-The first of the scholars doubted the linking of the fire
I'm probably missing more.
>>47254982
Not saying he isn't a Lord of Cinder, I'm saying that you don't need to link the fire to BE a Lord of Cinder, you just need to be powerful enough to have the potential to link it. All five of the Lords of Cinder are Lords of Cinder, but only four or three of them have actually linked the fire.
>we don't know if the Cathedral of the Deep knows that
We don't KNOW it, but given that their signature sorceries, Deep Soul and Great Deep Soul, are humanity/abyss related, it's at least implied.
I mean I'd chose to believe that he had visions of the Deep Sea after being made a Lord of Cinder but prior to the Bell of Awakening, and that he'd consumed gods prior to Gwyndolin, who just happens to be in the middle of being made a snack when the Ashen One reaches Aldrich, which is why he's the 'head' of Aldrich at the time.
Otherwise, yeah, those are some reasonable points, and I'm happy for counter arguments that are more than just "you're just a shitposter".
>>47255043
I doubt it's Aldia himself, but there's sure to be other scholars who followed in his teachings, especially being brother to the king, he'd have subordinate scholars of quite high rank. The Princes seem to be following in his idea, not fighting to link the fire or extinguish it, but going their own way and just letting the world take its course.
>>47255152
>you don't need to link the fire to BE a Lord of Cinder
yes you do senpai that's the whole point of the game
>the "Aldrich didn't link the fire" "the princes are a lord of cinder" "Aldia has nothing to do with Lothric" shitposting is all from one guy
So that's that then.
>>47255218
>anyone who disagrees with me is a shitposter
Ebin. 'Shitposting' is the new 'trolling.'
Anyway, I'm
>the princes are a lord of cinder
this fag but neither of the other two.
>>47255210
>that's the whole point of the game
So that's why Embered mode was originally called Lord of Cinder mode, yeah?
>>47255218
I'm on topic, you're shitposting. I've never said "Aldrich didn't link the fire" is anything more than a possibility, shit in this game is deliberately ambiguous and instead of offering anything worthwhile you're just, doing whatever this is. "The princes are a lord of cinder" isn't even up for debate, the game says Lord of of Cinder Fallen when you defeat them. And I said Aldia DID have something to do with Lothric, just not directly, because this is countless cycles and probably thousands of years later and Aldia, if not dead, has probably fucked off elsewhere with the Bearer of the Curse.
>>47250685
I'm responding to your interesting theory with some OC.
>>47255335
>So that's why Embered mode was originally called Lord of Cinder mode, yeah?
Yes, probably? Why, do you think the plot and lore specifics of the game were exactly the same back in that stage of development?
>>47255370
nice fresh meme i like it
>>47255410
Not at all, but it shows that even From have never had a solid definition for what makes a Lord of Cinder in this game. Again, I'm not trying to argue my point as the One Ultimate Truth, just as a possibility given the ambiguity in dialogue and description texts, because I think it's an interesting possibility, but half of you seem to be all "No fun allowed".
>>47251853
Doesn't Yuria of Londor state that she like, ordered an ally to guide Anri on her quest, which is most likely Horace, though? Or did I misunderstand, everything's so vague its entirely a possibility I did.
>>47255587
The ally is probably the Pilgrim disguised as a statue in Yorshka's church and then dead at Darkmoon Tomb.
>>47255587
http://darksouls3.wikidot.com/yuria-of-londor
>A fellow of mine guides him at this moment.
Pretty sure she's talking about the Pilgrim assassin that murders them and then takes their corpse to Anor Londo.
>>47255370
Just to sate my morbid curiosity, what's the original about?
>>47255640
>>47255640
It's a trump supporter ranting about feminism, per usual
>>47253070
Silly anon, everyone and everything is Seath not Gwynevere. That dragon that doesn't look like Seath, it's Seath. That wall, it's Seath too. Lord of Cinder, more like Lord of Seath.
>>47255739
I bet this sounds like Seath's baby too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6vCZdcp6hE
>>47255739
Solaire is the giant worm
The queen is Rosaria is the shrine handmaiden is Gertrude is Gwynevere
The King of the Storm is Ornstein
The Nameless King is Ornstein dressed in firstborn's clothes
The Nameless King killed Ornstein
Aldrich is Smough
Vordt is Smough
Yorshka is Gwyndolin
>>47255779
offendingcutcontent.wmv
>>47255784
Checkmate, hollows.
![tumblr_m3m1tzxqD81ru6hj8o1_500[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/mMeOe2j.jpg "tumblr_m3m1tzxqD81ru6hj8o1_500[1].jpg")
>>47255779
>Sound of a baby being horribly crushed and mangled into fucking wet gore.
I didn't expect this to disgust and upset me so much.
>>47255784
You forgot Wolnir is the Bearer of the Curse because DUDE CROWNS LMAO
The giant worm is Solaire
The queen is Rosaria is the shrine handmaiden is Gertrude is Gwynevere is Shanalotte
The King of the Storm is Ornstein
The Nameless King is Ornstein dressed in firstborn's clothes
The Nameless King killed Ornstein
Aldrich is Smough
Aldrich is the Chosen Undead
Vordt is Smough
Yorshka is Gwyndolin
Wolnir is the Bearer of the Curse
Yhorm is Vendrick
Yhorm is the Bearer of the Curse
Yhorm is Vendrick and Nashandra's son
>>47256201
lol what are you, a pussy?
>>47256265
Wait what the shit, I've heard that "Snake == Dayman" one before
What's their rationale behind that anyway?
An early thread had someone mention that Ocelotte might be the child of OCEiros and ShanalLOTTE. Any other evidence to back that up, I haven't played DS2 and I feel like that would open up the possible lore a lot
>>47256325
Because it drops an Undead Bone Shard and has lightning attacks.
No seriously.
That's literally it.
>>47256342
dude their names are the same lmao
>>47256325
It was posted to Reddit a little while ago, theorizing that the Chaos Bug that causes him to go crazy stays latched onto him and keeps him alive, gradually becoming more and more a part of his body, and with Solaire's power leading to it to grow and mutate into the giant worm after thousands of years. They back up that rationale with the fact that uses lightning and drops an undead bone shard. Weak to say the least.
>>47256342
Not unless Shanalotte is the Queen of Lothric.
>>47256342
Shanalotte is some sort of experiment "born of dragons". Never said who made her though we can assume it's Aldia, in the original version of the script which made supposedly made more sense she was created by the Researcher of Time (though that might have just been another name for Aldia).
>>47256342
Shanalotte was "born of dragons, contrived by men" and given her name and most likely her life by the Ancient Dragon. So a woman made of dragons would make a proper wife for someone obsessed with becoming one himself, no?
>>47256344
I expected nothing but I was still disappointed.
>>47256383
>Not unless Shanalotte is the Queen of Lothric.
Hence
>>47256265
>The queen is Rosaria is the shrine handmaiden is Gertrude is Gwynevere is Shanalotte
>>47256342
>An early thread had someone mention that Ocelotte might be the child of OCEiros and ShanalLOTTE.
We weren't saying that, we were saying that Ocerius was the son/grandson of The Emereld Herald Shanalotte and the cursed undead from DS2
The most basic, very basic details of the idea go like this:
-The game mentions he found out about seath and his worship via the archives and those cooky scholars, so they most likely had a hand in things developing the way they did.
--Ocerius became a dragon; he may be a malformed, deformed, seath-like dragon, but he WAS able to become a dragon.
-Ocerius also mentioned that he became obsessed with a greater destiny for his bloodline; now this is stretching, but if Ocerius was the son/grandson of the cursed undead and shanalotte he would have the blood of dragons in him from shanalotte's side of the family as she was created by dragons to be a human in an effort to end the curse.
-Perhaps that's entirely the deal with Ocelotte's name: a tribute to his grandmother/mother whom he became to idolize and thank for his dragon blood.
>>47256365
That's why I asked if there was any more evidence, my shitposting friend. It's headcanon at this point, but I thought it could have been interesting. Much the same as the "Yorshka = Ocelotte" theory
>>47256389
That's interesting, given Oceiros' dragon obsession. There's still no evidence for it, but he might have named the child after her. I also forgot the queen of Lothric requirement, so that seems to really slim it down
>>47256436
Or maybe Aldia helped him out.
>>47254569
They might be like the Lords/Gods of the previous games, immortal unless killed.
>>47255784
Hey stop stealing my joke post.
Dancer is clearly Artorias and Ciaran's daughter, by the way!
>>47256504
>The giant worm is Solaire
Actually, this makes perfect sense, because Solaire is the firstborn while the Nameless King is Ornstein.
MIND = BLOWN
>>47256436
This seems to make the most sense to me. I've always thought that the queen of Lothric would be someone from Gwyn's bloodline, be it Gwynyvere or, more likely, one of gwyndolin's children, as Prince Lothric seems to cast mostly miracles, and his brother is quite large. Makes the most sense that the name is simply "someone he heard about in history readings" instead of the actual mother
>>47256522
Why the Bearer of the Curse and Shanalotte, though? BotC either is sealed away on the Throne of Want or leaves to find a cure for the curse elsewhere at the end of the game.
>>47256436
Continue into my OWN personal "grand lothric theory":
I think Lothric was founded by the survivors or otherwise descendants of Drangleic whom fled the land with the cursed undead when he found the whole linking of the flame to be bullshit.
-The Cursed Undead abandoned the throne of want and took his crowns with him to be an immortal king unto himself. He also took with him the Emereld Herald as his queen/mate and Aldia as his Scholar.
-They settled into Lothric and essentially established the 3 pillars of their society that would seperate them from other neighboring cultures: 1 would be the knight representing all the bullshit and work the Cursed Undead had to do, 2nd would be the scholar in reference to Aldia and 3rd would be the priestess which would represent firekeepers and the emerald herald. (The Shrine handmaiden in the untended graves both sells and drops this ring, so there's my vague connection. She's also the same "type" as seen in ds2)
-Unlike Anor Londo though the folks of Lothric brought with them a lot of different cultural norms:
>They brought back the tradition of DRAGON KNIGHTS: riding, taming & breeding wyverns. This is something quite foreign to anor londo- a kingdom founded on religiously slaying dragons.
>They brought with them the use of "chimes" as opposed to "talismans". You'll notice the "priest's chime" are specifically given to LOTHRIC priests.
>They also have that FORROSIAN LION KNIGHT KNIGHT just inside the archives leading up to the final stretch towards the Lothric princes. You can actually summon this guy to fight the DANCER, but if you kill the woman to do it he'll black crystal out- suggesting he's loyal to the remaining Lothric kingdom.
That's all I got.
>>47254847
>it's his entire thing
It's not, re-read his shit, NONE of it says he wanted to bring the age of deep waters. He saw visions of the "age of deep water" and but didn't FEAR it because he would devour the gods themselves. That pretty clearly implies that Aldrich came along before the Church of the Deep was corrupted to actually be bringing about the Age of Deep water (presumably Sullyvahn caused this corruption.). It also states that Aldrich BECAME disillusioned. I think it's more likely he was originally a "right and proper cleric" who just thought that eating people would give him the power to prevent the age of deep from coming about but ultimately ended up hating the fire linking bullshit from all the pain it caused.
>>47256590
Bearer already has a cure though, the fused crown.
>inb4 wolnir
Oh and there's the possibility that the First Scholar is someone who inherited Aldia's legacy, and turned their back on the linking. i.e. the bearer.
>inb4 BotC is the DLC final boss
>>47256590
That one wasn't me, I haven't played DS2, and only have cursory knowledge of it, so I'm hesitant to theorize on anything from that game. Personally, I think that one's pretty far out there, with no evidence to back it up at all. Even "Yorshka is Priscilla" has more evidence than that
>the worm is solaire
This doesn't even make sense.
>>47256650
Don't forget "The Sunless Realms is Mirrah"
and "Sirris isn't a Darkmoon"
>>47256666
THE SUNLIGHT MAGGOT MUTATED/EVOLVED
SOLAIRE IS THE WORM
>>47256522
>I've always thought that the queen of Lothric would be someone from Gwyn's bloodline, be it Gwynyvere or, more likely, one of gwyndolin's children, as Prince Lothric seems to cast mostly miracles, and his brother is quite large. Makes the most sense that the name is simply "someone he heard about in history readings" instead of the actual mother
I also have an idea about that if you're willing to humor me:
The Lothrics became obsessed with breeding due to their need and desire to end the linking of the fire and transcend the cycle: they carried this ideal over from Aldia and they carried it over from their original father the cursed undead when he bred with Shanalotte in hopes of producing an heir that would be pure and free of the curse.
That's the deal with the Lothrics. Much like how Vendrick thought the curse could be circumvented through soul-research, The Cursed Undead must have thought he could BREED it out- Only when he either had enough and died or went off on his own second adventure did the Lothrics most likely miss-inteprirate this as breeding a "perfect lord of cinder".
This is where Gwyndolin comes in.
-The Recent twin Lothric Princes are the result of a political marriage between Ocerius and a neice/cousin/sibling/relative of Gwyndolin and Gwynevere.
-Gwyndolin must have found this convenient as the Lothric kingdom was very much distant from any God Rule: They carried over the passive worship of their absent Drangleic gods and refused to acknowledge physical deities. Making them a terrible stressful and dangerous neighbor to have.
-The Lothrics must have found this convenient as with that good god blood surely they would produce amazing half human, half god heirs that could circumvent the curse.
-The Lothric Princes are half Ocerius (descendent of Shanalotte and the cursed undead) and half one of Gwyndolin's relatives. That's why they look so much like Gwyndolin.
That's my best guess.
>>47256724
But it's not from Izalith/demon ruins. It moved there from carthus.
>>47256692
She's obviously a blue sentinel, though.
The actual darkmoon order was extinct until your PC finds Yorshka.
As far as I understood only the darkmoon tradition were passed through but over time its meaning was lost, the blue sentinels follow the concord to defend people from invaders in their worlds but don't know the origin of their order.
Someone give me the rundown on the Undead Curse and Hollowing. How did they come about, why? And why do the people of Londor just accept it?
>>47256759
BACK TO ITS HOMELAND
>Rosaria is imprisoned by Pontiff
>Yorshka is imprisoned by Pontiff
>Gwyndolin is imprisoned by Pontiff
Why does Pontiff like imprisoning women so much? Was he planning on feeding all three of them to Aldrich or was Roasria and Yorshka imprisoned for other reasons?
>>47251123
Expanding on this, Leonhard had Rosaria's soul, right?
If Rosaria was Gwynevere, wouldn't he have been able to... You know... Revive Gwynevere by going to her chambers?
>>47256748
I certainly like the idea of Lothric being mostly DS2 stuff, but there doesn't seem to be any real evidence for it. It definitely makes sense though, and hopefully the DLCS will clear some questions up (especially regarding profane capital)
>>47256816
I'm puzzled myself about hollowing.
I skipped DaS2 so I have no idea if something was changed in it but to my memory of DaS1 when someone truly hollowed they'd irreversibly lose their mind and also would no longer be reborn once dying at that state. The player in DaS1 would never reach the final state of hollowing for obvious reasons but suddenly on DaS3 it seems that there's a whole society near the abyss that learned how to not go crazy as hollows, essentially becoming immortal.
>>47256837
That's what he tried to do. That's where you fight him
>>47256832
Aldrich wanted to be the little girl, so he kidnapped little girls for Aldrich to eat so he could become the little girl.
Too bad the first little girl was actually a little boy.
>>47256832
You know what his reasons were.
Rosaria was being used by Pontiff to rebirth more sacrifices for Aldrich.
>>47256617
Alright, I'll concede the point that he was actively against linking the fire for purposes of bringing about the Deep, but, the fact that he had that vision of the age of Deep and sought not to stop it but to just survive it by becoming powerful enough through eating men and gods still suggests that he never linked the fire, maybe because he believes the age of Deep to be inevitable regardless of whether he did or not.
>>47256816
There is no curse, people just believe there is. Hollow is the natural state of humans and gods, as shown in the DS1 intro in the age of ancients. They're only made into gods and humanss through the first flame, through the Lord Souls and the Dark Soul (split into fragments by the futive pygmy, the hard Humanity of DS1) respectively, both of which come from the First Flame. When the First Flame starts dying, so do the power of those two, and people start reverting to their natural state. They can be kept going by the power of souls, which is essentially what linking the fire is, burning a huge number of souls to rekindle the flame. The darksign is basically a hole in the body through which souls escape, so you have to collect more souls to keep the Humanity within you burning.
>>47256201
Does this mean Oceiros is confirmed to kill OCELOTTE in his retard rage?
>>47256832
>Was he planning on feeding all three of them to Aldrich or was Roasria and Yorshka imprisoned for other reasons?
Pontiff just wanted anyone powerful out of the way so he himself could rule: Aldrich was a tool he could conveniently use to get rid of gods, men, literally anyone he didn't want mucking up his plans.
Aldrich though himself was personally motivated by his will and desire to "last through the age of the deep". He personally thought that if he ate the gods he would gain sufficient power and form to survive in an age of water. Every place Aldrich is found in or associated with seems to get flooded- perhaps Pontiff was doing this as Aldrich's form was more capable of moving and diving through water.
-Yorshka was imprisoned because she was a relative of Gwyndolin -some way or another- and thus of the old royalty even though it seemed that she may have been kept hidden away secret and safe by Gwyndolin.
-ROSARIA HOWEVER.
The Rosaria's covenant item reads as follows, "Sacred seal of Archdeacon Klimt, who served Rosaria, Mother of Rebirth. Equip to pledge oneself to the Rosaria's Fingers covenant."
I believe that Rosaria was not kept there as a snack-rifice but as a TOOL- she was to be kept safe and sound, locked away behind bars and from everyone else so that Aldrich and Pontiff could use her as a TOOL FOR REBIRTH. Some how though someone bent the bars and released Rosaria from her cage and this lead to all these fucking people falling for her charms, her selfless'ness, her divinity and festering beauty.
>>47256863
It doesn't take long to revive a god with their soul.
He just had to jam the thing on her bed and it would work, but it didn't.
At least /tg/ doesn't spout the b team meme shit whenever DaS2 is mentioned.
I really hope there's a DLC to do with Drangleic and/or the Bearer of the Curse. It'd be really interesting to see how things progressed after he completely surpassed the Curse of Undeath.
I also really like the theory that Wolnir read/heard about what BoTC did and tried to emulate him and become immortal like he did by DUDE CROWNS LMAO.
>>47257024
From the Archdeacon's Skirt description:
>Of the three Archdeacons of the Deep, one attended to Rosaria, Mother of Rebirth, whom he deemed a goddess.
So why did Gwyndolin dream of Priscilla as he was being consumed by Aldrich? Did he love her? I don't even mean that in purely romantic way, but perhaps as a sister/relative?
>>47257044
It'd be wild if BotC turned into a four-headed monster each wearing the crown of an ancient King.
Or like, four heads smashed into one giant head, each facing a different direction like those Hindu demon things.
>>47257029
Exactly. I think we agree on this point though, and I misread your first comment
I just noticed that Rosaria's chamber is filled with baby cots.
>Gwynevere gave birth to many children
>the maggot people are here children
>>47257076
Gwyndolin did not dream of Priscilla.
Aldrich dreamed of Priscilla, and only as a lonely little girl trapped in a painting.
>>47256947
I figured the baby is invisible like Priscilla. He's clearly cradling something invisible, and since that event is triggered by damage I think it's the player that kills the baby, driving him mad.
>>47257099
>little
>lonely
She's clearly happy to be locked away with the other freaks.
>>47257085
The cots stop rocking when she is killed.
>>47257104
Except the baby's death scream is followed by a gory squish that seems like something caused by Oceiros power-smashing his own infant.
>>47257076
>>47257099
Aldrich dreamed of Yorshka.
>>47257124
>>47257113
Read the description on the scythe.
>>47257124
Yorshka doesn't seem to have any "lifehunt" esque abilities or any indication that she would.
>>47256748
Curse Bearer is not a "he" though.
>>47257140
>Fira from the comic which is totally canon guys
>>47257085
How did Gwynevere lose like three cup sizes by becoming Rosaria?
Was Aldrich sucking those puppies dry?
Speaking of Dark Souls lore, what ever happened to that Alva Comic?
>>47257141
>>47257135
Yorshka is Gwyndolin's "sister", he named her and may have raised her, he has reason to regard her specially which would lead to Aldrich dreaming of her.
Why would this apply to Priscilla, again?
>Yorshka doesn't seem to have any
Yes there are no indications to the fighting ability of the character that doesn't fight in the game
>>47257161
Alva feels like the sort that should have an anime dedicated to him and his sharp-tongued witch waifu.
>>47257044
The crown being used as a method of immortality doesn't even make sense though, wolnir's phylacteries are VERY CLEARLY his bracelets.
I assumed the crown was just one presented to him as the conqueror of carthus.
>>47257183
It's easier to assume the lonely girl in question was Priscilla, Yorshka takes a stretch while Priscilla does not.
>>47257157
Gwynevere in Anor Lando was an illusion. that's the only explanation I could think of. Also general corruption fuckery could also be why.
>>47257197
>Crown of Wolnir, the Carthus conqueror.
>Once upon a time, such things were bequeathed judiciously to each of the rightful lords, until Wolnir brought them to their knees, and ground their crowns to dust. Then the crowns became one, and Wolnir, the one High Lord.
>>47257104
The baby crying still plays even during Oceiros' second phase.
Don't overthink it.
>>47257183
Because one of those two HAS lifehunt and is CONFIRMED to have lifehunt, the other has no known or even hinted connection to that ability.
>>47256860
>>47256816
Hollowing is handled differently between the three "main" races, so I'll briefly explain the process for each:
The Hollowing process is essentially life returning back to what it was pre-fire: as the fire leaves them they begin returning back to what they were before they found it.
>Gods
Gods such as Gwyndolin, Gwyn and theoretically Gwynevere are held together and given power entirely by their magnificent souls and these lord-ish souls are linked to the health and quality of the FIRST FLAME. When the First Flame fades they too begin to fade, grow smaller, & dimmer, etc. Eventually turning back into a hollow-like state as per Gwyn when he BURNED UP his entire soul in the first flame.
>Giants
Giants develop a treeknot in their face, they become twisted and emaciated and once they lose their purpose they die and a tree begins to grow out of their bodies. Giants were spawned from the Archtrees: they possess incredibly, persistent and indomitable souls that prevent them from going insane during the hollowing process, but instead they must return to being archtrees eventually.
>Humans
Humans are of The "Dark Soul" and as long as they retain themselves, some purpose and never lose hope they can continue to persist indefinitely. This is because the Dark Soul -unlike the other lord souls- can be multiplied and divided ENDLESSLY without lessening itself or the quality of it's flame.
I've been thinking about it, but the first flame is most likely suffering it's "Dark Sigil" sign because over the course of generations it's becoming fed by fewer and fewer souls and instead is being stoked and fueled by more and more Dark Souls as the fire keeps being linked by Humans.
>>47257210
>YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT
>provides zero reasoning
okay
>>47257228
They're both crossbreeds and it's not difficult to assume that they might have similar abilities.
Once again, what reason does Gwyndolin have to think of Priscilla as so important?
>>47257216
okay sure.
The bracelets are still clearly the things animating him though.
>>47257256
They're what's keeping him from being consumed after falling into the abyss you retarded manlet cuck.
>>47257271
CITE
SOURCES
>>47257244
She was an extremely dangerous being that was exiled/fled into a painting in his own capital. Said painting was surronded by special guardians. Gwyndolin who essentially ruled and controlled Anor Lando for who knows how long surely would have known quite a bit about her at the least, she also could have easily been a niece/sister of his
Also I remember correctly if you piss off Gwyndolin and he breaks the illusion of Anor Londo, they disappear.
>>47257197
I never said it made him immortal. I said he tried to copy what BoTC did by using crowns. As you said, it's clearly the bracelets. But since he decided to crush a bunch of crowns into one for SOME reason, I like the theory that the guy trying his hardest to become immortal, tried something that someone did to become mortal before.
You know, Oceiros being a "consumed" king makes me think the queen is a child of dark/shard of manus who fucked him and the kingdom up super hard, then left after she got whatever she wanted.
>>47257256
That doesn't at all contradict the possibility that he thought a combined crown would make him immortal.
>>47257235
Explain humans turning into trees and Pilgrim Butterflies.
Also the Pus of Man.
>>47257287
Not him but:
>A holy sword eroded by the Abyss. When Wolnir fell to the Abyss, he was gripped by a fear of true darkness, and pleaded to the gods for the first time.
This holy sword, together with three armlets stripped from the corpses of clerics, gave him some semblance of comfort.
And you beat him by breaking them after which he is pulled back into the abyss.
>>47257287
Literally everything Yorshka says about her relationship with Gwyndolin. Something which Priscilla lacks.
>>47257290
Yeah that's weak.
>>47257235
Dragons are completely separate from the process, correct? Seath went mad due to his research, he wasn't affected by the Flame going out I don't believe.
>>47257271
>>47257287
"Wolnir's Holy Sword
A holy sword eroded by the Abyss. When Wolnir fell to the Abyss, he was gripped by a fear of true darkness, and pleaded to the gods for the first time.
This holy sword, together with three armlets stripped from the corpses of clerics, gave him some semblance of comfort."
>>47257244
We're providing reasoning why Priscilla, the girl in a painting who uses the lifehunt scythe, is the girl Aldrich dreams about that lives in a painting and gave him the lifehunt scythe.
You're just going "NO IT COULD ALSO BE HER" when there's nothing to suggest that is the case.
I'm sorry, the girl in the painting is Priscilla.
>>47257314
And yorshka having Life Hunt isn't? Because nothing is ever suggested that "crossbreeds" inherently have this ability. Just Priscilla.
>>47257256
Yeah I wasn't contradicting your main point, just clarifying the crown. Of course the bracelets are what are keeping him from the Abyss.
He's also not immortal, since if you kill him by taking down his health bar without destroying all three bracelets, he has a regular death animation and fades away like other bosses.
>>47257314
Meant that to be:
>>47257290
Yeah that's weak.
See literally everything Yorshka says about her relationship with Gwyndolin. Something which Priscilla lacks.
>>47257323
>I'm sorry, the girl in the painting is Priscilla.
Are you retarded? We're not discussing the painting, we're discussing someone who's so important the Gwyndolin that Aldrich dreams of her after eating him.
>when there's nothing to suggest that is the case.
See literally everything Yorshka says about her relationship with Gwyndolin. Something which Priscilla lacks.
>>47257362
>we're discussing someone who's so important the Gwyndolin that Aldrich dreams of her after eating him.
Obviously Priscilla he, mother of his daughter Yorshka.
That's just about as substantiated as Yorshka having Life Hunt
>>47257404
What did she mean by this?
>>47257337
Huh.
I've been pretty lazy with the lore, got pretty soured on it after the idiotic mess that was DaS2.
I did so little damage to him without hitting the bracelets I thought he was regenerating health like seath.
http://pastebin.com/i2KWZLFZ
>>47257427
Nope, he's like Yhorm or the Ancient Wyvern. Fuckhuge lifebar, but entirely possible to take down through anklebiting (or wristbiting, in Wolnir's case).
Sidenote, but attacking Yhorm normally is a little interesting, because if you attack his arms enough you can actually stagger him into bending forward, and riposte his head.
>>47257404
This needs some new memes.
PONTIFF WAS FROM YHARNAM BECAUSE HIS STAND LOOKS LIKE SOME ENEMY FROM BB AND THE "SULYVAHN'S BEAST" ENEMIES LOOK LIKE SOMETHING FROM BB
What's the best system to run a game of Dark Souls?
>>47257476
Soul of Cynder was a subtle Spyro the Dragon crossover.
>>47257487
RuneQuest 6
>>47257476
It's pretty clear that Pontiff and Aldrich tie in to BB though. And yes, Sullyvahn's beasts do look like beasts from BB, and are humans which were turned into beasts by the cursed rings he gave them.
>>47257462
I've actually killed both Yhorm and Ancient Wyvern without using the storm ruler/ plunging attack.
I got really excited by the idea of Wolnir being some sort of lich, and accepted the initial hypothesis that he was immortal. That same reasoning is what caused me to kill Yhorm the hard way even, it seemed too cheesy to have multiple "immortal bosses".
>>47257512
Its called a reference dawg. Also the Deep seems way more tied to the Abyss than anything, given that it seems to corrupt people people (see: Deacons of the Deep).
>>47257500
Yeah this is really obvious honestly.
>>47257515
I feel like that's supposed to be the idea, he's as much of a lich as it's possible to be within the Souls universe.
>>47257197
>>47257044
>>47257216
Wolnir taking the crowns of his fallen enemies and welding them into one should probably be read as a political action ("look how fucking strong I am, I can take these dudes' hats and make my own, bigger hat out of them lmao") anyway. He was a conqueror, he knew his propaganda well enough.
>>47257547
Well yeah, the Deep is directly tied to Human Dregs, which are essentially goopy Humanity.
>>47257604
"LMAO LOOK AT MY BIG FUKCING HAT U SCRUBS"
kek
In Dark Souls 1 do you think Gwyndolin gets off to people making lewd comments about Gwynevere and imagines them commenting about him since she is an Illusion made by Gwyndolin?
>>47257404
Carthus is: Lost Izalith, Drangleic, Oolacile
Farron is Oolacile
The Untended Graves are: In the future, in the past, in a parallel world, a dream
The Archdragon Peak is: Real, a dream, time travel
Nameless King is: An illusion, a dream, a magical test, a hollow
>>47257604
I never thought it was anything else. And I think people are trying too hard to pull DS2 callbacks where there aren't any. Are there any direct references to Drangleic or anything that happened there that aren't what could easily be added-at-the-last-minute easter eggs (like Gilligan, the Shield of Want being just laying about, etc)?
>>47257652
Here come the B-team memes.
>>47257604
Yeah, but again, The guy was incredibly determined to outlive everyone and was terribly afraid of death. The idea that he read some ancient book and was like I JUST NEED 4 CROWNS AND THEN I TOO WILL BE IMMORTAL BRING ME SOME FUCKING CROWNS IMMA SNORT THAT SHIT is a fun theory, but is just that, a fun theory.
