Dark Souls Lore Thread: Traditional Gaming Edition.
Please feel free to discuss any theories, speculations or ask any questions you may have about any of the souls games in the trilogy.
Previous thread here: >>47204531
So we already know that Soul Stream and Soul Geyser are the same spell
>It should be noted that in Japanese, this is the same spell as "Soul Geyser" in Dark Souls 2. Also, the description of the spell in 2 calling it a family heirloom is erroneous; It is said to be An-Dil's (Aldia's) "legacy", suggesting that he created it.
The in-game translation is:
>"Sorcery imparted by the first of the Scholars, when Lothric and the Grand Archives were but young.
>The first of the Scholars doubted the linking of the fire, and was alleged to be a private mentor to the Royal Prince."
The source text is:
>"A sorcery taught by the First Sage, when Lothric and the Great Library first began. The First Sage was a skeptic of the fire-inheriting, and secretly tutored the prince."
That the translator changed sage to Scholar with a capital S is really suspicious and suggests that they might have heard something we don't know from Miyazaki. What we know is that the First Scholar doubted the linking of the fire, and was passing down Aldia's signature sorcery. Gee, I wonder who this could be.
In addition to all this: Remember how Aldia was making dragons and wyverns in Dark Souls 2?
Just thought it was pretty suspicious how there are two wyverns in Lothric seemingly guarding the path to the grand archive, and that when you kill them their bodies don't disappear until you also destroy the goop monsters that come out of their bodies (this doesn't happen with the ancient wyvern, which is presumably a real one since it's at the archdragon peak).
Reminder that DaS1 giants do in fact have faces
The Deep is referring to or at least related to Ash Lake and the liquid contained therein.
It's said in 3 that the Human Dregs, what one can assume to be the smallest unit of the Deep, constitutes the "bedrock of the world" and that they naturally sink to the bottom of a Human and presumably also the world. Considering the color of Human Dregs and the color of the "water" in Ash Lake, the lowest part of the entire Dark Souls world, its not a stretch to assume that they're one in the same or again related.
Also, if Human Dregs found there way down to Ash Lake, the water level would eventually rise given enough Dregs and time. Considering how much time has passed and how many humans presumably died in the time span between 1 and 3, it wouldn't be hard to assume how Ash Lake may have become a Deep Sea of Ash that would have continued to rise higher and higher, as Aldrich predicted.
>>47228163
While The Deep might be a physical, geographically set locale in the world, I find the connection with Ash Lake to be somewhat forced. Especially since you already visit a portion of it during the game in the form of Smouldering Lake, and it has none of the nonsense usually associated with the Deep or the contamination by the Abyss.
>>47228123
To be fair, using the Giant Blacksmith is an unfair example imo. If one was to assume the the "hollowed-out" face was the sign that a Giant had gone hollow in 2, and that Andre was able to go without hollowing because he always had purpose in his life (his smithing), then it's possible that the giant was able to stave of going hollow in much the same way, allowing him to keep his face.
It's a rather stupid theory but I think it deserves to be noted. Also, Giants may just take longer to go hollow than Humans. Maybe not enough time has passed since the Gwyn left to fire?
>>47228212
I don't think that Smouldering Lake is Ash Lake. The lowest you go in Smouldering Lake is Demon Ruins. In Dark Souls 1 Demon Ruins was still a ways above Lost Izalith (and the Flame of Chaos), and Lost Izalith was still above Ash Lake.
It would make sense if the reason Smouldering Lake was smouldering was because it was sitting right above Lost Izalith, similar to how a pot boils when placed over a flame (or in this case, the Chaos Flame). This makes even more sense considering the definition of "smouldering" is to "burn slowly with smoke but no flame" as it's stated that the Flame of Chaos has gone out.
Smouldering Lake is most likely comparable to the area where Ceaseless Discharge stands, while the Demon Ruins part is comparable to where all the the Capra's, Taurus', and Bitch Tits: Flamin' Hot Edition are.
Has anybody used Seek Guidance to thoroughly search for any hidden developer messages?
>>47228335
>Has anyone used Seek Guidance
Has anyone ever?
>>47228342
It lets you see/use non-white summon signs without using an ember.
Also, it's fun reading message sometimes and you don't ever really need more than 2 or 3 spell slots.
>>47228321
But yet you can still see the petrified archtrees that sustain the world from Smouldering Lake, where there was no hint of them in Lost Izalith.
And granted, while it is a fenced off area and not as open as the original, you can still see the trunks of trees stretching a fair ways into the distance as well.
It also wouldn't make much sense for the lake to be burning as a result of sitting on top of Izalith proper, since the descriptions make it clear that the Chaos Flame of Izalith has died long before the game started, and whatever embers of its power are left presumably go down with the Old Demon King when you murder it.
Hell, if the timeline was different, I'd argue that the reason Smouldering Lake burns is as a prelude to the birth of a new First Flame. As if while the surface grew cold and covered in ash and literally without a sun, the roots of the world were burning in preparation for a new rebirth. But I have nothing to sustain that theory.
>>47228351
I was more joking but no, I haven't tried it yet.
Were there any hidden messages in 2?
I know a few of weapons in 3 have a skill similar to Seek Guidance called "Guiding Light". Cleric's Candlestick (from the Deacon's Souls and Scholar's Candlestick (from the Scholars in the Grand Archives) are the only ones I know to have this skill.
You don't think From would hide lore messages about the Deep/Rosaria behind the the skill of the Cleric's Candlestick and lore messages about the Princes/Angels/Gertrude behind the skill of the Scholar's Candlestick, right?
>>47228123
Reminder that DaS2 giants do in fact have faces
>>47228321
>and Lost Izalith was still above Ash Lake.
No it wasn't, you can see the demon ruins and ash lake from tomb of giants and all 3 seem to be on pretty much the same level, if anything, Izalith would be under Ash lake.
>>47228436
>You don't think From would hide lore messages about the Deep/Rosaria behind the the skill of the Cleric's Candlestick and lore messages about the Princes/Angels/Gertrude behind the skill of the Scholar's Candlestick, right?
No if it were anything, it would be something short, vague, and ambiguous.
Nothing that would explain any actual key elements of the story.
Most likely just highlighting an fake wall or hidden path.
I don't think there were any hidden developer messages in Dark Souls 2, or nobody ever went through the trouble of searching for them.
>>47228456
could easily be just an early version of the giant design which didn't get used
>>47228123
>Reminder that DaS1 giants do in fact have faces
Yes! Hello!
It may be difficult to see -I'm really bad at resolution- but I went on a little field trip around DS3 to just sort of document that: The Giant Slaves do indeed have holes in their faces.
They're difficult to see because their masks obscure the holes in their faces and the holes aren't DEEP, but: I've circled them in red and tried to take screenshots with their heads -just right- so the gap is visible.
I also included a picture of a ds2 giant and a tree knot because a friend said their faces reminded them of treeknots.
Did anyone else feel like thereligion prophesying the coming of an age of waterwas a subtle attempt at linking Dark Souls to Bloodborne?
>>47228494
>>47228456
Giants in 2 had faces that looked like shit, so when what'shisname took over they just decapitated the giants and gave them gaping holes for faces, they missed a couple here and there though. in 3, they seem to have retconed the giants from 1 into not having faces as seen here:
>>47228497
>>47228503
Now what on earth would make you think that?Reminder: Aldrich's name in the source text is Eldritch
>>47228503
No.
Not everything has to be directly connected.
Not all Pixar movies happen in the same universe and timeline.
Rugrats is not all one of Anjelica's dreams.
Ed, Edd, and Eddy doesn't take place in purgatory.
There's no need to pretend Bloodborne is a part of the same story and it doesn't help either story.
From frequently use monomythical structures when shaping their mythology, and they love leaving in little teases and easter eggs of their other games, but it's not meta-narrative.
It's just them having fun.
Frankly it would probably hard to flesh out some religious pantheon oriented around fire symbolism without eventually touching upon water.
Dark Souls is thematically very different from Bloodborne.
The Deep that functions here in Dark Souls seems to be some pure, uncorrupted, and intentionally forgotten form of darkness, and is directly juxtaposed with the fire.
Bodies of water in Bloodborne act as metaphysical barriers between planes of existence which can be bent, broken, and traversed.
Dark Souls has barely ever touched water, while Bloodborne is basically a lovesong Lovecraft and his association of aquatic and cosmic horror.
![Tomb-of-the-Giants-1-0003[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/5GEeN0H.jpg "Tomb-of-the-Giants-1-0003[1].jpg")
>>47228392
I just wonder that if what you say is true, then where did the "water" in Ash Lake go, there's barely any in Smouldering Lake. And only the tops of the Archtrees can be seen in Smouldering Lake, not the roots. This puts Smouldering Lake on par with Nito's Lair, a ways lower than the roof vantage point you get on Demon Ruins from Tomb of the Giants, and again, roughly on the same level as Demon Ruins.
>>47228473
You can see onto the top of Demon Ruins from roughly the center of Tomb of Giants. If you go deeper to the entrance of Nito's Lair you can just see the tops of the Archtrees from Ash Lake like in pic related. You're still above the cloud cover and can't see the roots or lake itself clearly. Considering how high the cloud cover of Ash Lake when you're standing on the beach compared to how much farther down Lost Izalith is from Demon Ruins, I think its safe to say that Ash Lake is beneath Lost Izalith.
It is definitely and debatable point however.
![8396411132_6d5872abef_o[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/a0hmIM2.jpg "8396411132_6d5872abef_o[1].jpg")
Compare the height of the cloud cover in >>47228609 and it's height in pic related.
I'm just not sold on Lost Izalith being the lowest point in the world.
>>47228540
>>47228576
I think the reference is really just a reference. Maybe some of the believers somehow saw something of an alternate universe and thought it was the future.
>>47228576
Honestly, considering HOW MUCH they make allusions to bloodborne, what with the entirety of Irithyll, Pontiff Sully, the black eyes making people into beasts, the straight up not-on-fire watchdogs of the old lords around the place, and the Deep tying itself in with churches, like the blood did in yharnam, I don't think it's just a little nod.
Honestly I think that all the bloodborne references in DS3 paint the picture that bloodborne happens not necessarily int he future or the past or anything. It's an "other" to the cycle of dark souls, a possible outcome that aldritch and sully are tapping into. Considering how DS3 tries really hard to bring all of the souls stuff together, I like that they make bloodborne part of it too.
>>47228635
If we go with the whole "everything is getting pulled towards lothric" idea, it does make sense though. Ash Lake would be way lower than Izalith, but when they're getting pulled towards firelink, lothric, and the kiln, things start overlapping eachother. It seems to me that you have places being forced together by reality falling apart pretty constantly in DS3, what with Carthus being a tiny underground that is underneath a swamp, or the dungeons of Irithyll leading to another separate lord of Cinder, when it was probably more likely that the profane capital was originally somewhere else, ruled by yhorm. Otherwise, Irithyll would just rule it, wouldn't they?
>>47228609
>>47228635
I booted up the game just to confirm, and no, Izalith is definitively either deeper or on the same level as Ash lake.
You say "deeper in tomb of giants" as if you went a mile deeper, but no, you actually go UP from the bonfire, go past patches and you can see the hole to ash lake before you even have to fight the first dog.
Not to mention that even tomb of giants doesn't sit atop of the arch trees since you can see that the trunks go further up.
The whole theory of "the entire world is built on top of archtrees" sounds very neat, but it's not actually like that. Now, Lorddran itself is on top of the arch trees, but the same doesn't go for everywhere else. In fact, if we want to get into the lore stuff my theory would be that Gwyn built his kingdom on top of the archtrees just to say that he literally built his domain on top of the ashes of the previous one. Both literally and figuratively.
>>47228813
And here you can see that the demon ruins, not even Izalith are far below tomb of giants.
>>47228715
True, I forgot about that fact that in Dark Souls 3 the lands were converging, time is convoluted in Dark Souls 1, and elevators at the top of towers take you to lava fortresses in the sky in 2. Does make speculating on some things a tad bit more difficult lol.
>>47228823
Again, it's pretty ambiguous as to which one is lower.
I still wonder where the Kiln of the First Flame is after all this time. If you look at the intro for Dark Souls 1 and assume the "land of gray crags, archtrees, and everlasting dragons" is Ash Lake (before the waterworks were installed of course), then where the First Flame was found was an insane distance below Ash Lake or Lost Izalith.
Does anyone know if the Kiln of the First Flame was built directly on the First Flame, or was it somehow moved higher to the surface and then built?
It would be a real let down if the reason the Flame of Chaos went out and the First Flame was going out was because they were both below Ash Lake and they had a leaky roof.
>>47229061
I'm pretty sure the elevator in DS2 was more of a designer mistake than an intentional mindfuck.
Also I think the Flame of Chaos went out because in the end, it's an attempt to recreate the first flame, and no one freakin kindled it. The last kindler might have been the Ivory King, and it's been a long ass time since that. I think it just died out, and demons slowly died along with it.
>>47229100
Yeah, Dark Souls 2 had a lot of problems with its level transitions but I don't it was an accident, just a risk that didn't pay off as well as they'd hoped. I think the developers intentionally tried to go for an adventure with a larger geographical scope than Dark Souls 1 and tried to use the area transitions as a way for it to happen, skipping all the boring leg work from hiking from one part of a continent to another. Some worked for the most part like Majula -> Heide's or Shaded Woods -> Drangleic Castle but other like Earthen Peak -> Iron Keep were just lazy.
On an unrelated note, I wonder if the Deep/First Flame and the Abyss/Chaos Flame are parallels. If I recall, the Abyss was created when Manus'/Furtive Pygmy's Humanity went wild. What if this created a twisted, malformed version of the Deep much in the same way that the Chaos Flame was a twisted, malformed version of the First Flame? Dark Souls 3 states that originally the Deep was tranquil and peaceful place after all.
I just got done rage quitting for the first time in in DS1 and I'm already hooked on the lore.
Anyone have a good YouTube series or something?
>pic semi-related
>pyromancer op
>>47229100
I think it was just gradually fading out ever since you killed Bed of Chaos. It just took a while, for whatever reason. Maybe it's a matter of it taking that long for all the demons to die off. Maybe it lasted a comparable amount of time to how long the First Flame did before it needed to be kindled the first time (we don't exactly know how long the Age of the Gods lasted.)
>>47229234
>>47229100
>>47229061
I did love the fact that demons were dead in Dark Souls 3 from the dying of the light.
It just makes the concept of the Abyss that much more alien, I think, that even demons are born from the flame, and they also must contend with the dying of the light.
>>47229227
For as fucking bad as feel saying this, VaatiVidya ain't TOO terrible. He can make some assumptions but for the most part they ain't too far-fetched but he has been know to then base assumptions on top of assumptions which is a no-no in my book.
I've heard EpicNameBro also has a good series of lore videos up but I've yet to watch them. He seemed to be the go to guy for lore when Vaati starting shilling out for Patreon money every video.
I'd say watch both with a grain of salt and see what you agree with and drop what you don't, and you'll probably get a decent grasp on the lore.
>>47229272
It really does make them seem more like the malformed and ill-conceived Humans they were created as than random chaotic murder machines or lawful evil horned-man-in-a-suit other demons in fantasy tend to be.
>>47229283
Alright, I'll check em both out. Thanks man.
>>47229309
>Humans
You can't call the people of Lost Izalith Humans for sure, I don't think. Remember, Gwyn's people are the Giants/Gods, implied to be animated by shards of his Lord Soul. Humans are the Pygmy's, beings with shards of the Dark Soul. The people of Lost Izalith are most likely the unnamed people of the Witch, who had shards of her Lord Soul. So they're about as human as the Giants are.
>>47229313
No problem. I got my own fine memories of getting completely butt frustrated as Dark Souls "artificial difficulty" while simultaneously loving every minute of trying to beat Sif at level ~30.
>>47229324
Was that how it worked? I was under the impression that the Pygmy split his Lord Soul onto everything that would be human, but I thought The Witch of Izalith only split her Lord Soul among her daughters, Gywn only split his Lord Soul among the 4kids and Seath, and Nito didn't split his at all since he's fucking greedy. I guess the Witch's Souls could have been split further by her daughters but Gywn's I'm less positive on. I doubt Gwynevere is that much of a slut.
Also, why do you only return like 3 Lord Souls to the First Flame. You turn over almost all of Gwyn's (albeit in 5 pieces (4kids+1 from Seath)), almost none of Izalith's (only the Witch's, none of her daughters'), and all of Nito's, but only the small portion of the Pygmy's that you posses in the form of Humanity. Unless the Dark Souls doesn't lose power when split, you gave very little of it to th Flame. That never made sense to me
>>47229401
That's why the kindling is only temporary. If you somehow managed to get the whole 4 souls and link the fire, maybe this time it would last.
No fire can burn forever if you keep taking parts of it.
Just speculating, of course.
>>47229401
>I thought The Witch of Izalith only split her Lord Soul among her daughters
This is never stated one way or another. I said 'for sure' because we can't know.
>Gywn only split his Lord Soul among the 4kids and Seath
I'm pretty sure Dark Souls 1 mentions that the Giants and Gods bare small bits of his.
>Nito didn't split his at all since he's fucking greedy
I know for a fact, though, that Dark Souls 1 tells us that the skeletons are animated with tiny slivers of Nito's Lord Soul.
It seems like pieces of Lord Souls are generally what makes beings 'living'. Else they'd still be Hollows. The crawling beings we all see at the start of DS1's intro are all the same 'species', and it's only the way the different Lord Souls act within them that makes them different.
>>47229401
Trying to turn over all of the Pygmy's Soul would require you to throw all of humanity into the fire.
>>47229525
The undead have already been feeding shards of the dark soul to the fire to reverse their hollowing and for the rite of kindling (boost estus).
![5IWRdar[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/vfLacDc.jpg "5IWRdar[1].jpg")
>>47229557
>>47229525
>>47229401
>Unless the Dark Souls doesn't lose power when split
That's -what I think at least- is the big deal about The Dark Soul.
The Dark Soul is the most powerful soul not because of it's own physical might, but simply because it does not diminish itself through splitting apart: it's capable of multiplying itself endlessly.
>>47230264
Fucking manlet min-maxing munchkin.
Ahh is Vaati fishing for ideas?
>>47230303
He can't do it on /v/ anymore after all, not since they got paranoid about him stealing their shit and stopped having threads.
Well, where can find timeline of first dark souls? and history information about it? help, plz
>>47229401
>4kids+1 from Seath
What? May be i am retarded so so, but only children of Gwyn is Gwyndolin, Gwynevere and the god of war
>>47230382
>What? May be i am retarded so so, but only children of Gwyn is Gwyndolin, Gwynevere and the god of war
The other Anon, he's affectionately reffering to the "4 kings" as the "4kids" it's a joke, but, yeah:
Gwyn shared small portions of his soul to his god-men, his children (though that may not have counted? Sex and all), but he gave his 2 largest portions to the 4 human lords known as "The 4 kings" and Seath whom were both considered by Gwyn to be honorary dukes.
>>47230468
thank you, anon. Do you know some good compiliation of all information/speculation/ Because, its all very scattered in internet
>>47230468
Other than fucking Gwyndolin up Gwyn always seemed like a decent god. His best friend was human, some of his most trusted vassals were human, not too arrogant to associate with mortals and all.
I suffer from SMA Type 2 since birth and because of it I have very poor reflexes. So I have a question for the veterans of the video games: how punishing are the game series on its lowest difficulty for someone with poor reflexes (specially the ones on PS4/XB1, Bloodborn and Dark Souls 3 as I own both systems)? I could always watch a Let's Play on YouTube but it's never the same as playing.
I'm thinking of getting the Board Game through the Kickstarter as a way to experience the world without the video games but I'm not sure.
Not directly Lore related but it is because of the Lore I want to play.
>>47230502
>Do you know some good compiliation of all information/speculation/ Because, its all very scattered in internet
The only guys I can recommend at the moment who have any sort of consistancy are the youtubers VaatiVidya and The Silver Mont.
Vaati has a sketchy history of having stolen most of his material and I believe that, but he's a convenient evil if you just want to fucking catch up.
I haven't found anyone making any lore videos of dark souls 3 yet -which I find interesting- so if you're in these threads you're on the cutting room floor of lore development!
>>47230725
There's no difficulty so you're going to have a hard time. I too have absolute abysmal reflexes (though I don't think I have any specific condition), but I managed to beat Demon's to Dark souls 2 without too much difficulty by being a huge turtle so you might manage.
3 and Bloodborne nerf turtling a TON though, so those two might be impossible for you, I know I've been having a lot of trouble in 3.
>>47230576
Yeah, cept for the whole linking of the fire thing. That sucks. Dick.
>>47230888
What? Self sacrifice to prevent the world from falling into shit is bad?
>>47230725
Dark Souls has 1 difficulty. It is called dark souls. I'd give it a shot. You can get the older games cheap nowadays, though Dark Souls 3 or bloodborne might be exceptionally difficult due to their quicker more erratic enemies
Continuing on my previous post, do any of the game use joystick clicking? Due to my health I can't do it on controllers.
>>47230920
I don't own the last gen and my PC is garbage. So it has to be games on PS4 or XB1 sadly.
>>47230957
Clicking the stick makes you jump, but jumping is NEVER required in any Souls game, so you're good on that front.
It's my first souls game. It took me at least 3 hours but I've finally gotten somewhat competent and beaten the Abyss Watchers. Literally collected 70k souls from them, you get an average of maybe 500 souls from the darkwraiths slaughtering the mobs outside the boss room so that's a rough estimate of how many times i got my face pushed in.
So got 3 more bosses to finish off i guess?Knowing a typical souls game there should be something deeper than just a glorified fetch quest.
>>47230994
Only real mindscrew in 3 is what's behind the king's garden.
>>47231003
Archdragon Peak isn't necessarily "real", it's likelier to be the Ashen One's meditation dream.
>>47230994
You have a lot more than 3 bosses to deal with
Why do you guys hate Vaati?
>>47231541
It's more jealousy than anything.
The dude's making a six-figure salary playing video games and crafting stories built on lore he almost certainly learns, word-for-word, from places like 4chan or Reddit.
He's pretty much doing what all of us want to do; live rich and comfy as the "ideas guy", stealing ideas from other people.
>>47230994
Assuming you've fought the Deacons of the Deep?
You've got 11 bosses left.
>>47231409
That's not it. Think darkness.
>>47232292
Darkness ahead
In short try torch
>>47232409
Despair ahead.
Try Sword.
So, what are the embers the firekeeper sees in her vision? And since when are firekeepers not supposed to have eyes?
>>47232488
>So, what are the embers the firekeeper sees in her vision?
The fire resets if nobody lights it, the embers are the wisps of what-used-to-be-but-will-be-again.
It's basically a choice between, "keep the flame going for another couple hundred years" or "let it die, endure the Age of Dark for a thousand years, and let the First Flame reset back to full power."
>>47231580
Outside of making money off of it, I've never seen the problem with "stealing" lore theories. It's the exact same shit everybody else in the community does, it's how people eventually come to a consensus on what they believe part of the lore to be (and very rarely do people just come to those conclusions on their own).
>>47231409
Nah dude you can see it from Irithyll
>>47232668
Yes, but how do you travel there? The dragon torso stone description states that the worshippers picture the peak in their minds.
>>47232650
Yeah, a majority of lore theories are built up by multiple people coming up with and agreeing on different theories stemming from speculation, seeing what fits best.
It's the fact that he makes 6k a month regurgitating those theories and putting some mildly edited gameplay footage over it that kinda bugs me. But I guess he's still putting in more effort than people who make 10 times that just recording themselves playing and screaming at games, so hard to be too butthurt about it.
>>47231580
With this being the last dark souls I wonder what he'll do now.
>>47233884
Bloodborne 2 & 3.
>>47233945
Miyazaki considers Bloodborne to be a souls game, in its own way, he's not making another one of those either.
>>47233971
Maybe not right away, but Bloodborne was one of the PS4's highest selling titles, and From are contracted for two more games with Sony. They'll give it a few years, a couple of other devs will try their hand at Souls-likes (like The Surge, from the Lords of the Fallen guys, hopefully they do a better job this time round), then when the potential for over-saturation has dropped From will make another Souls-in-all-but-name.
>>47233884
He'll do what every other YouTube celebrity does, either diversify or go back to bagging groceries.
>>47232678
it IS a real location that physically exists
BUT
you never visit it for real
>>47234036
LotF hurt my feelings to be honest. How do you look at Dark Souls 1 & 2 and go "if only this was a single player only game with no character creation and Bioware tier dialogue options"?
>>47234271
Plus making the combat twice as slow and half as responsive and satisfying, in a boring world with little exploration, no kind of interesting lore to pick through. I'm hopeful that some other dev will get it right sometime, but I'm not holding my breath for The Surge. Ni-oh seems to be the closest anyone else has gotten so far, but even that seems kind of removed from the heart of a Souls game, it's just simulating it mechanically and throwing a few new toys on top.
>>47234315
we could have had a good Souls clone
>>47233884
Armored Souls
>>47234358
God, I hate that MMO-tier armor design. One of the main reasons I like Dark Souls is because the grand majority of weapon and armor designs are fairly realistic. LotF and BBF both were on the more fantasy side of the spectrum.
>>47235449
>the grand majority of weapon and armor designs are fairly realistic
You forgot, "and therefore badass."
>>47233945
>>47233971
>>47234036
I'm pretty sure Miyazaki already said there's not going to be a Bloodborne 2 or a Dark Souls 4. They'll make something new, probablyBlood Beast Ayy Souls
>>47235449
>>47235521
>Loyce Knight set didn't return in 3
>>47235928
good
Frog Mouths are worthless on foot anyway.
>>47228497
Weird, because Yhorm most certainly has a face.
More evidence of it being giant hollowing?
>>47235966
Only if you're a casual.
>>47230732
I wouldn't go as far as to say Vaati is an evil. I myself would much rather watch a condensed anthology video of lore than take hours shifting through /v/ and reddit threads just so some paranoid assholes (half of whom are anonymous and therefore give up any right to real ownership, that's how 4chan works) can feel like they accomplished something.
>>47236361
Vaati himself isn't too bad, it's his "fans" that are fucking cancer and should die in a fire.
>>47235906
We're probably getting something like a re-imagined Armored Core. I'm not excited.
>>47235906
Working nine years on essentially the same series, I'm not surprised he wants to stop, for his sake and the sake of the market. It's been a game a year for three years now, if they carried on people would get tired of them pretty quick.
But they sell too well to just abandon entirely, and so far, they're the only ones that seem capable of delivering this specific niche effectively. Even arguably the worst game in the series, DS2, most people will agree is still a very good game, if not up to the standards of the rest of the Souls games. So that's why I think they'll stop for maybe two years, put out a couple of different titles that'll sell acceptably well, nothing outstanding.Then, E3 2018, Miyazaki on stage, the lights dim, the screen lights up with a screech and a blaze of flame, showing the title Dragon's Souls.Let me dream.
>>47236416
Is his fanbase cancer? I never really venture too far into youtube comments.
>>47236507
>>47236488
I'm pretty certain that they'll keep making souls-like games, it's just that the dark souls universe is over, and i for one am happy for it because frankly i'm getting tired of it.
But come on, this is the company that has made 20+ armored core games, i seriously doubt they'll stop making souls games when they've made just 5.
>>47236507
I'd even go so far as to argue that Dark Souls 2 is better than Dark Souls 3 in a lot of major respects.
That said, I do hope for something like this homebrew for the next game, if only because I'm interested to see what he does with the sci-fi genre.
>>47236575
Such as...?
>>47230303
>>47230309
Did Vaati really steal from /v/? And would people not be nearly as salty about it if he wasn't making money off it?
>>47236590
Better PVP, more creative use of existing lore, and I'd argue more varied weapon viability.
>>47236606
>Did Vaati really steal from /v/?
Yeah.
>And would people not be nearly as salty about it if he wasn't making money off it?
Probably, I mean, think about how salty anons get when reddit, tumblr and the like "steal" memes.
>>47236575
>I'd even go so far as to argue that Dark Souls 2 is better than Dark Souls 3 in a lot of major respects.
In some ways, I'd agree. Things like Estus usage, powerstancing, wider variety of weapon functionality, a real open choice from the beginning with regards to where to go (although I'd prefer if it wasn't just essentially four cardinal directions each leading to a dead end), working poise certainly, a more interesting narrative once Aldia was added in.
>>47236606
Not just from /v/ specifically, but he's been shown to take ideas from the community in general. Which isn't unreasonable, it takes a community effort to make the most interesting observations and conclusions. I think it is mostly the money making that rubs people the wrong way. Everyone who contributes does so out of love of the game, not for any personal gain, and he's taking a shortcut and using Patreon to profit from it.
He'll probably start to lose subs soon though, his more recent videos aren't anywhere near as interesting, and it was the Prepare to Cry series that got him big. Without more like that, it'll all fall through before too long.
>>47236611
>>47236575
I pretty much agree, dark souls 3 to me felt pretty dull because it felt like i was playing dark souls 1 again for the most part. At the very least, 2 felt different, for better or for worse.
But i'd argue there's a lot of things from 2 that were a definitive improvement over 1 and that they should've kept in 3. Pretty much everything concerning PvP was better, but there were also some pve elements that were better, like ascetics, ng+ offering more than just + versions of rings.
>>47236510
The problem with his fanbase is that it's mostly comprised of people who don't actually play any of the Souls games themselves, but try to act as if they have first hand knowledge.
It's the issue of authenticity that is part of any subculture. How can you claim to truly be a fan of something if you aren't willing to put in the bare minimum effort?
I suck at action games, but I cleared through the Souls games at a rate of roughly 1-2 weeks on top of balancing my classes and my part time job.
>>47236683
As somone who didn't play 2 until SotFS, what did Aldia add that helped make the narrative make sense?
>>47236683
>>47236635
The fact that when you google "vaatividya" one of the first things that comes up is "vaatividya plagiarism" is probably not a good sign.
>>47236701
Also, as overpowered as it was, I think they seriously hurt magic and miracles too much. They're pretty much useless, especially in PVP, and to me it doesn't feel like a pure magic build is viable for anything other than masochists.
>>47236611
I'll give you PvP and weapon viability, but I felt all lore, even that touching on Ds1 lore was lazy and aimed at being confusing to coincide with the Ds2 "le hard game" meme than trying to craft an interesting story like Ds1
>>47236776
Yeah, magic and miracles got shit on really hard in 3. But magic is still usable, the problem is that to get to the point where magic is good you have to suffer through pretty much the entire game.
Miracles are just outright completely fucked.
>>47236814
Miracle healing is really fucking good now, but the damage is completely useless.
It's infuriating. I feel like they intended them to be more about splashing magic into physical builds, but that just feels really limiting.
>>47236798
I agree in terms of the base game, but I think First Sin kinda fixes that. Dark Souls 3 just feels too much like more of the same to me.
>>47236507
just give me a Neverending Story themed Souls game PLEASE
>>47236798
>but I felt all lore, even that touching on Ds1 lore was lazy and aimed at being confusing to coincide with the Ds2 "le hard game" meme than trying to craft an interesting story like Ds1
I sort of agree with this, i think all the lore in 2 that referenced 1 was pretty shit, and i think the story was a convoluted cryptic mess. However, i think the new things that 2 did with the lore, the new places and new characters were mostly fine, nothing particularly fascinating but nothing bad about it. I especially liked the concept that the bad guys were shards of Manus, although Nashandra was a huge disappointment, no joke, when i fought her my first thought was "literally who?". I literally didn't know who she was because i only met her once before in the game so i didn't even remember her name.
DLCs fixed everything though, and since DS3 doesn't have any dlcs yet it's at a disadvantage. From's DLCs are always better than the main game.
>>47228032
I'm not sure whether the argument was here or in a /v/ lore thread, but the main game areas in distance are definitely part of the skybox, meaning that the lack of building up and the general differences in the look of everything is intentional and not a quirk of draw distance.
>>47229100
>I'm pretty sure the elevator in DS2 was more of a designer mistake than an intentional mindfuck.
Iron Keep was supposed to be atop a plateau which the windmill was situated against but something didn't get communicated across teams and we ended up with a lava field in the sky.
>>47237955
No, it was supposed to be located after the cut mountain and tunnel areas.
>>47231409
It's in the past. There are points where you can see the main game area, and the walls don't have a castle built over them yet, among other thihngs.
>>47236507
>Dragon's Souls
Well, we already have Bandai-Namco as publisher, a kamehameha spell, and senzu flasks. Might as well go all the way.
>>47236575
The major components of souls games are level design and art direction, which DaS2 is definitely worst in the series at, but it did do many small things right.
>>47238003
That was before takawhatever took over, what that guy mentioned is the problem that happened after takasomething took over.
>>47234240
This.
I don't think it's as much as a dream as a spiritual plane or something, though. When you kill people in there they die in real life and you can pick up their gear (the drakeblood knight and guy in Havel's armour) and you can attack the "dead" people in meditation poses lying around in the real world and they don't die but do bleed.
>>47238185
The weirdest thing about the stuff in that pic is NG+ changing stuff, because that's something Miyazaki originally did, in Armored Core, where playing the game on hard would change things massively where an item critical to a mission would break down and you have to improvise, or additional bosses just drop in out of nowhere, and they reveal more lore- Like, playing the final stage on hard in AC4A has your former operator join the gank squad that ambushes you, and she was an unseen up till then but reveals herself to be one of the top ranking pilots from the previous game. (If you're not familiar with AC- It's an equivalent to, say, after you beat the Soul of Cinder, the Firekeeper shows up as a surprise final boss while revealing herself to be the Chosen Undead).
Why the fuck didn't DkS3 do any of that?
>>47238280
Because they heard about the B team meme and so they decided to make dark souls 1 again because that's the one everyone likes.
In other words, no fun allowed.
>>47238166
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqGnmKwpeOA
>>47238322
Everyone loved stuff like the scripted invaders in the DLC who'd do unique scumbaggy stuff, or the white phantoms who'd emote when you summoned them, it's fucking stupid that they just dumped literally ALL the good stuff 2 did.
What's the deal with the hand head cyclops things? And the spider hair woman things? So creepy. The fuck man.
>>47238388
The invaders in 2 were awesome.
>>47238401
That invader in the Old Iron King DLC was something special.
>>47238322
>>47238280
More likely they probably did DS3 in a rush job and just heard that fans liked DS1 more so they aimed to make it more like that.
Seriously I can't imagine the amount of development time for DS3 was anything but strict. I'd love love LOVE to see what they could make given a year or two's worth of development.
>>47238396
>hand head cyclops things
Japanese guide calls them "abominations of sin" (I assume English name would be something like profaned abominations). Probably people mutated by the flame of sin/profaned flame.
>>47238413
FUCK MALDRON
FUCK THAT GUY
Everytime he appears.
>>47238413
Who, Maldron?
>>47238445
That's the one.
>>47238413
>>47238439
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH9o7SN2P14
>>47238396
>>47238427
The eleonora axe you get from one of the abominations has this description:
>A strange weapon found among malformed inhabitants of the Profaned Capital.
>The Profaned Flame was triggered by the curse of these women, relatives of a certain oracle, but despite their culpability, they went on living, without any cares.
>>47238420
>DS3
>a rush job
Nah, that's what DS2 was. 3 is very obviously polished. Everything that was removed had to be a deliberate design choice.
>>47238513
Like how poise does nothing but they reference it everywhere?
I'm not saying DS3 is bad, and I enjoy it a lot, but it's lacking polish.
>>47238530
You didn't see the latest official statement where they said Poise was working as intended?
Apparently it's "more situational".
>>47238396
>spider hair woman things
1) centipedes are an allusion to filth and ritual uncleanliness in Japanese society
2) long, unkempt hair is a trait of yokai, those being malevolent spirit beings
3) the split-open jawed belly is a reference to Gaping Dragon, it and the things both live in sewers and eat filth
>>47238556
That was a Namco PR guy, and I bet you that's just what the dev team told him because they turned it off after not being able to get it working.
The in game stat is "player poise = 0" and setting it to one re-activates it. It's not situational, it's fucking off.
>>47238556
That comes from some PR guy who is obviously confusing poise with hyper armor.
And not that guy but DS3 to me does feel very unpolished, there's even missing textures in the game, the most obvious one being in Wolnir's room where there's several blocks above the door with no textures, or how you can just walk out of the world through a wall in farron keep, or how crystal lizards and bonewheel skeletons can just clip out through walls and fall out of the universe.
>>47238556
>>47238530
>>47238611
Pose now only affects you while you're actually swinging.
Go get a friend to use the same weapon as you and swing at each other at the same time. The one with lower poise will flinch.
>>47238627
>the most obvious one being in Wolnir's room where there's several blocks above the door with no textures
Huh, so that wasn't just my graphics card fucking up somehow.
>>47238637
That's hyper armor, not the same as poise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lZfS60z40o
Never noticed but when you kill the Dragonslayer Armor the Pilgrim Butterfly dies too, huh.
>>47238790
Well, that is what's animating it.
The fuck are pilgrim butterflies anyway?
Are they connected to the "tree people" you see around the high wall and undead village?
Are they the end result of the pilgrims(guys with the bolders on their backs) you see dead everywhere?
What do the booterflies signify, the world truly ending?
I don't think faceless giants are hollow giants simply due to how there are many certainly dead, dead dead giants around. Unless hollow giants don't experience the immortality hollow humans do (in which case they're not even really hollow by the definition we know). It's just weird.
>>47239399
The original Moonlight Butterfly was created by Seath's magic. Since you find the Pilgrim Butterflies outside the Grand Archives, it stands to reason that they're devolved versions of that experiment.
>>47239499
>Since you find the Pilgrim Butterflies outside the Grand Archives, it stands to reason that they're devolved versions of that experiment.
That is by far the biggest grasping at straws theory I've heard to date about the pilgrim butterflies.
>GODS CAN'T HOLLOW YOU GUYS I SWEAR
>>47239399
The theory I like is that they're becoming draconic in a more natural way (like dead faceless Giants become archtrees) than the Path of the Dragon religion. Which is turning the world back to Grey, and so letting the flame recharge in relative peace.
>>47239532
Gwyn was hollow in 1.
>>47239532
it's just make-uphe lost his status as a god when Gwyn showed him the door
>>47239399
>you see around the high wall
Yes.
>and undead village
No.
>>47239699
Ok, then the hell were the tree people in the rocking chairs in the village? People's bodies just going fully totally hollow? Some kind of experiment similar to what they were doing with the cursed great wood?
>>47239755
it might have something to do with the greatwood, but there are tree-like hollows in high wall as well. Thing is, those ones look much different, so they may or may not actually be connected, it's unclear.
>>47239532
>>47239472
>>47239680
>>47239681
I'm just throwing this out there, but this is how I 'think' the major races in the world handle hollowing:
-Gods become smaller, more emaciated and more withered as the fire fades due to them being directly linked to it and drawing their power from it. Most Gods we see during the fading of the flame are quite small, but I believe the illusion Gwynevere is meant to be the 'natural' scale of which pre-faded flame gods are meant to be.
-Humans go through hollowing as well, but since they are of the Dark Soul and not strictly linked to the flame they can continue to persist and are not entirely "doomed" to go hollow so long as they retain themselves and their composure. The Dark Soul is eternal and persistent, but fickle.
-MAMMALS are composed entirely of soul much like the Gods and do not possess any humanity: they become hollow, emaciated and will wither away all the same.
-Birds may not hollow- I'm not 100% sure. Crows don't seem to be bothered.
-Dragons and Reptiles do not hollow. Period. Not all Dragons or Reptiles are immortal and they can be corrupted or diseased, but they are unaffected by the fading or linking of the flame and will never go hollow. Only lizards/dragons with stone-scales are truly immortal- the rest are merely long-lived.
-Giants hollow, but their process is entirely different: They do not go insane, they become emaciated and stoney, they develop a hole in their face and they can continue on with their lives due to their INDOMITABLE DETERMINED SOULS. But, they do 'eventually' lose purpose, die and then archtrees begin growing from their bodies.
>>47232488
My theory is that the Firekeeper who Ludleth talks about and whose eyes you take was the first of a phenomenon of Firekeepers starting to try and destroy the fire. All of a sudden they started seeing the 'scenes of betrayal and a world without fire' and it drove them mad, so it started the tradition of blinding Firekeepers to stop them.
As far as WHY? I think it's because the fire wants to go out now, it's done and tired of being rekindled, and so it sends visions to those connected to the flames (the Firekeepers) to encourage them and the undead they serve to let it go out.
>>47240034
I can only imagine the "fire" part cycle was supposed to end eons ago and if the flame has any kind of sentience or consciousness it must have been driven suicidal years before ds3 took place
>>47240123
I mean, who stops you in 1? It's what's left of a Hollowed Gwyn. 2? A Child of Dark wanting to seize its power. 3? The Fire ITSELF summons an avatar of all the former Lords who kindled it to fight you. That's part of why I'm getting the feeling that it's decided it wants to go, the final obstacle to rekindling the Flame is the Flame itself.
>>47239897
>>47239755
>>47239699
>>47239499
>>47239399
The notion I've been going with is: Growing Trees in the Undead is an attempt to remove the curse all together, but the process is imperfect, improvised and has gotten mixed results.
-The Evangelists came up from the cathedral of the deep and into the undead settlement to convert the undead folks within their to the worship of Aldrich.
-When they got enough of a footing in the settlement though they began processing the cursed, the undead, the unkindled, etc: Some of them were burned, some of them were butchered, but a LOT of them were packaged up into cages and shipped down the road of snack-rifices to be fed to Aldrich.
-This process came with a lot of problems though as the undead remained undead and many of them would just come back again and again and many people refused to stay dead -not through any fault of their own-
-In an effort to try and deal with the undead problem they began stuffing the worst, most persistent offenders into the pit of hollows and into the "Greatwood". The Greatwood tree worked for a time, but they stuffed so many cursed undead into it that the tree itself became undead.
-Their next idea though was not to shove undead into trees, but shove the trees into the undead: Planting trees inside the heads of the undead and letting the tree kill them/disburse the curse. This worked- it worked in the sense that it killed the undead and made them stay dead.
-I can only imagine though that the Trees in some cases continued to grow until they leached every bit of fluid and nutrient from their undead hosts before ripping out of their hosts and flying away.
-The ones growing on the highwall of Lothric were most likely undead who climbed the wall with trees planted in their heads, died on the way, but the trees kept growing inside of them.
>>47240168
The worst part is that, besides Gwyn, as far as we can tell, everyone else kindling the flame has been some form of human, who, as far as I can tell, would actually benefit from the fire going out, at least to some degree. Aside from Gwyn, who wanted to keep the age of his people going, humanity has kept it going for misguided reasons this entire time, not to say some in the know have tried to stop it.
>>47240293
Well Yhorm was a giant as well, so while the majority are human after Gwyn, there's at least that one exception.
Yhorm is said to have done it because it would stop the Profaned Flame that was destroying the humans he cared for (though ironically he fucking EXPLODED when he kindled the flame, killing all of them anyway), which we don't get nearly enough info on.
>>47238627
In fairness, wheel skellies have always liked to fall through the world. They used to do it all the time in DS1. Was sort of my primary method of killing them because it was so easy to set up.
>>47240293
>>47240417
I dunno about Yhorm, but the only difference(as far as we know) between Gwyn and his gods and the humans is that they didn't have the humanity given by the pigmy, other than that he was just another hollow that bulked up when he found souls.
>>47240648
I think the main differences between the races is which Lord Soul their leader has. Gwyn's soul seems to have produced a huge species, while the Pygmy obviously has a bunch of shorties.
The Dark Soul also seems to be set apart in how it never starts to fade or die out like the other Lord Souls. A lot of people take that to mean that the Dark Soul is, as far as we know, completely immortal and ever propagating.
>>47240712
Size is all about power though, it's not a race thing. Vendrick was a human, and he was huge. Even just looking at the people that served Gwyn you can see that size fluctuates a lot, just look at gwyndolin, Ornstein, Smough and Ciaran.
>>47240752
Obviously soul power increases size, but the gods just seem to be on average much larger than humans, who only rarely swell up to be larger than normal.
And soul power can't be the sole factor in size, else Ciaran (one of the most powerful of Gwyn's people) would be much larger than the mindless Giant Slaves you see everywhere, and Havel (one of the greatest of human knights and Gwyn's best friend) wouldn't have been normal human size.
>>47240804
This has no basis on anything, but i think they can probably choose what size they are, because like you said otherwise they'd all be enormous compared to everyone else. and If we look at the architecture of Anor Londo it was obviously not built to accommodate people that big.
>>47240804
>soul power can't be the sole factor in size
Well, Smough grew as large as he did due to his cannibalism, apparently.
>>47240752
Vendrick was huge because had the Giants' Kinship and probably got some "enhancements" from his brother Aldia to not look like a manlet next to Nashandra.
>>47240833
Well, one thing I always liked about Anor Londo? The two elevators up to Gwynevere's chamber. One is sized for people roughly human sized, the other is much larger and is clearly for huge giants.
>>47240859
And does that really fit for someone like Gough?
>>47240867
Hawkeye Gough was a Giant.
>>47240876
The Giants and Gods are implied to ultimately be the same people.
>>47240867
Yeah, but even those wouldn't be able to accomodate the gods if they were as "that" big, like, look at the size of Gwyn's coffin, or at Gwynivere's illusion, they are much much bigger than Smough.
Even Vendrick is much taller than Smough.
>>47239680
>>47239681
Hollows are a return to the state of being that the "They" that came from the dark and found the Lordsouls.
>>47240882
No they aren't.
>>47240867
>Gough
>Smough
>ough
The similarities in their names never occurred to me before, and I now I'm seeing other similarities, like their sizes. I wonder if their connection isn't even deeper--after all, Smough wanted to be a Knight of Gwyn like Gough.
So looking back over the dark miracles, it seems pretty clear that the Deep is just the Abyss post-Manus. The descriptions make it fairly clear that it used to be a calm and serene place (which totally fits our descriptions of the dark and humanity's emotional attachment to it) until something went wrong and now it's full of horrors (i.e. Manus getting buttfucked by Oolacile, driving him mad and twisting the Abyss into the nightmare it is now).
So my question is: has anyone fucked up harder that Oolacile? Is such a thing even possible? It sounds like they kind of doomed the cosmos by going "HEY GUYS I FOUND A DEAD BODY LETS POKE IT WITH A STICK".
>>47240898
Except nito, he seems to just have gained power, not really changing too much.
>>47240898
>Dark
I want to point out, they didn't come from the dark. The dark did not exist until the First Flame came into being and created the dichotomy. They existed in the grey eternity of the Age of Dragons, before light and dark.
>>47240903
And this is based on? Giants lived in the same places as the Gods, more or less, and the Gods can be comparably sized. There's nowhere else for Giants to come from, all the sapients in the setting trace themselves back to one of the Lord Souls, or are dragons. What do you imply Giants are, in this case?
>>47240882
Listen here young man, our Lord Gwyn wasn't no hole-faced tree-skin.
>>47240804
>>47240752
Let's not forget all the humans you fight in the souls games that are huge, starting from 2 most if not all the knights you fight either as normal enemies or as bosses are just as big if not bigger(Vordt and Wolnir come to mind) than the gods ever were.
Size is irrelevant and is proof of nothing. Besides, since even Gwyn and his son went Hollow, it's pretty obvious that they are just like humans, except they probably don't have the dank soul.
>>47240942
Gwyn went Hollow because he was burning his soul. Nameless King was stripped of his godhood and cast out, which might be responsible for what happened with him. Otherwise, it seems like gods don't ever have to suffer becoming Hollow.
>>47240938
Giants are Archtree seeds. Dragons don't trace themselves back to any Lord Soul and they're perfectly sapient, so shouldn't Giants be.
>>47240963
Then Giants would be ageless and immortal and come from the grey nothing that is the Age of the Dragons. They'd really have no reason to side with the beings who came to power when time, light, and darkness became things and usurped their control.
>>47240938
>I want to point out, they didn't come from the dark.
The line literally says "From the dark, They came"
>>47240985
Think about it like this: when there was no time, the archtrees didn't need to grow. They were already/had always been grown. It wasn't until the First Flame that they even conceptually COULD have grown. So if giants are babby archtrees, they wouldn't have existed until the First Flame made it possible for archtrees to grow (as opposed to simply exist)
>>47240938
>And this is based on?
I can return that question to you, and since you're the one that said that giants and gods are the same you should be the one to prove that they are.
But first of all, nothing indicates that giants live in the same place or even general area as the gods, in Dark Souls 1 when the age of fire and the gods were still sort of around, the only giants you see are slaves, they can not be comparably sized either, by comparison, Smough the largest of the "gods" we face isn't as big as the giants you fight in dark souls 1, and Gwyinivere assuming her illusion was real sized was much bigger than the giants.
The giants came come from wherever, but assuming they're all the same race, we know from DS2 that the Giants came from across the sea, and we know that there's an unexplored continent to the north of drangleic across the sea that is home to "things inhuman" which seems to fit the Giants, given that they're tree people.
>all the sapients in the setting trace themselves back to one of the Lord Souls, or are dragons
So what Lord soul do the cats trace from? Are they dragons? What about Sif? He doesn't talk but he seems sapient.
>>47241003
Yes, because the First Flame came into being and created darkness. It's also important to distinguish between dark and Dark.
>>47240867
The elevator size difference is a subtle reference to Ornstein and Smough themselves, an elevator for each. That stuff was developed before the other games established deeper aspects of Anor Londo.
>>47240962
>Gwyn went Hollow because he was burning his soul.
Exactly, when "they" lose their souls they go back to what they were before the first flame came to be, which is hollows.
>>47241056
I know with the advent of the First Flame dichotomy was born between Life and Death, Fire and Dark. I'm saying that that's where They came from, we don't know what They were doing before the First Flame, or even if They existed.
>>47240931
Well Gwyn fucked up pretty hard in starting the fire sacrifices, and the Witch fucked things up pretty hard when she turned herself into a tree grub, her daughters into spiders, her son into whatever the fuck that was, and her people into demons.
It seems like of all the Lord Souls, only Nito avoided fucking things up and that's only because he slept in his coffin all day.
>>47240985
Since Archtrees don't really die because they're not alive in the sense humans or gods are, they technically ARE immortal and since the Archtrees don't care whether the Flame is on or off, they are free to choose who to align themselves with as True Neutrals. They chose Gwyn because Gwyn offered them a purpose and a home. They waged war on Vendrick because he stole from them and enslaved them. But in the end, they're a neutral faction. Also, as >>47241028 said: they have no reason to be attached to the Age of the Dragons because they weren't alive back then. Trees that don't change don't need seeds after all.
>>47241103
They probably existed, Gwyn has an uncle remember? Can't have an uncle without a dad or a mom.
>>47241104
Nito's Lord Soul caused skeletons to rise from their graves and DOOT DOOT people who went underground, that's hardly "not fucking up"
>>47241128
>Gwyn has an uncle remember?
Up for debate, seems there is a serious schism in the Way of While over it. Thorolund believed Lloyd was really Gwyn's uncle. Carim thinks he's a fraud.
>>47241178
Carim thinks he is a fraud but how does that bring into question if he is Gwyn's uncle? Would Gwyn really let some random dude call himself his uncle? You'd think he would've zapped the dude.
>>47241049
Animals are a big empty spot in the lore. It never goes into where animals came from or their natures.
>>47241154
Is that a fuck up from his perspective, though? I don't think he cares.
>>47241208
That's because they're just animals, and it's a fantasy setting, so there's nothing wrong with having animals talk.
There's no reason think about everything so hard, not everything is a conspiracy, not everything has a deep meaning and not everything has a huge impact on the world. They're just magic cats and dogs and whatever the fuck else.
>>47228715
>Irrithyl would just rule the profaned capital
They do. The jailers are the surviving nobles of the old profaned capital. The beings in the capital use pyromancies, but are described as great sorcerers, EXACTLY like deacons. Exactly like sullyvhan. In fact, Sullyvhan wears a mask (like the nobles of the profaned capital) AND his robe looks very similiar to the court sorcerer set, while using a set of fire and magic swords.
>>47241202
Lloyd is connected to the scheme to feed Undead to the First Flame. This also was very likely put into motion after Gwyn linked the fire.
>>47240931
I wonder if it would be possible to fix the Abyss if you rounded up all the Children of Dark, gave them some therapy to be less insane, and then got them to fuse back together into a (hopefully healed) Manus.
>>47241154
Wasn't that the Pinwheels who stole Nito's power? Nito created the Milfanito and Fenito, and they aren't skeletons.
>>47241228
But the thing about Dark Souls is that, before the flame, it was just an age of Dragons, Archtrees, and Hollows. The taking of the Lord Souls seems to be what created everything else. So where did animals come from? Were some of the hollows bestial? Are they attached to any Soul? If not, how did they come into being?
![Dark%20souls%203%20giant%20archer[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/qP6vuhK.jpg "Dark%20souls%203%20giant%20archer[1].jpg")
>>47240938
>>47240882
>>47240963
>>47240985
>>47241028
>>47241113
I think the big distinction to make in terms of "Are The Giants of the Gods?" Is the disrespect they receive.
Almost all the giants we see in dark souls 1 and 3 are slaves: They're covered in chains, have painful hooks in their stone skin, no shoes, etc.. EVEN GOUGH, EVEN. GOUGH- whom was made a KNIGHT of Gwyn was said to have been explicitly treated with disrespect by the people of Oolacile and so forth.
Yhorm the Giant as well faced ridicule and disrespect from the nobles and the other people who scoffed at his title of "lord of cinder".
Like, people treat Giants like shit in these games- There's no way there of the same origins as the Gods or people wouldn't treat them so poorly.
I think the Giant Archer in the Undead Settlement though is an interesting character; although we have very little on him he seems to be nothing more than an escaped slave who's taking out his frustration and showing off his skill by sniping enemies and so forth indiscriminately.
You come in and make peace with him so easily though- I imagine the only thing he wants is just a little fucking respect.
>>47241359
He seems to be linked to the birch trees which begs the question how and why does he kill anything near them?
>>47241104
Gwyn starting the fire sacrifices isn't on the magnitude of Oolacile's fuck up, though the Witch's comes close I guess.
Oolacile fundamentally corrupted one of the foundational elements of the cosmos. Like, to put it in context, imagine if Gwyn throwing himself into the fire BROKE light as a concept and now everything connected to light turned you into a tentacle monster and being in really bright places was poisonous. That's what Oolacile basically did.
>>47241383
That sounds like a fun setting. Saving that idea for later.
Those hand ogres in the profaned capital are manus's hand(/s). What the fuck are they doing there?
Profaned capital is criminally unfinished.
>>47241338
Remind me of what Fenito was again.
>>47241359
>>47241377
He's very clearly protecting the two white birch trees in range - the one in the Undead Settlement and the one in the Cathedral graveyard.
Given trees are strongly connected to giants (and even humans are becoming trees come DS3) it seems likely he's kind of protecting a baby, from his perspective.
>>47230725
I was hoping to see some discussion about the board game here. A friend of mine showed me the kickstarter today and I'm very excited. Holding off on the boss + tile add-ons until post-release, maybe.
I'm mostly excited to get into model painting
>>47241358
Well, as you know there's no real answer. But the way i see it, animals have always been around, they're just animals so they're irrelevant to what the intro is telling us.
You have to keep in mind that the intro is giving us basically a biblical story about the beginning of the world, it wouldn't have have the same impact if the Intro said "in the age of ancients, an age of archtrees, stone dragons, grey crags, cats, dogs, bugs, flowers, spiders, birds...." you know?
And if you think about it, there's another species that are not mentioned in the intro and they are actually very important to the world, the Primordial serpents.
>>47241412
Milfanito were the girls that sang songs in shrine of Amana, the Fenito was that blue fuck Agdayne in the undead crypt and presumably his grave warden guards.
>>47241412
The Fenito were the blue skinned humans who served as Grave Wardens in DS2, if I recall.
>>47241421
So what he commits suicide after we take all the branches?
>>47241377
Giants are tree people, it only makes sense for him to protect (what he thinks is) his own kin.
>>47241425
Primordial Serpents are a bit easier to tie into things. Serpents are said to be incomplete or failed Dragons, this comes up in the lore multiple times. So they could easily be exactly that, a species of failed Eternal Dragons akin to the Drakes, Wyverns, and other such things.
Personally I wonder if the Witch's soul had anything to do with it. The Chaos flame created all kinds of animal-human hybrids, beings that seem to be part goat, bull, centipede, and spider right off. So maybe her Lord Soul is somehow responsible for creating regular animals too at some point. Obvious this has no solid basis whatsoever, just a stray thought.
>>47241377
>>47241421
"Little Dusk's first sorcerer's staff eventually became a seedling, and then three white birch saplings. The young branch is said to still contain echoes of little Dusk's capriciousness."
He protects the white trees, which were born from Dusk's staff, and he does this with Gough's bow.Suspicious
>>47241425
I always wondered if the Primordial Serpents filled a role somewhat like Seathe, connected to the ancient and eternal dragons (being "primordial") but stayed out of the war against the dragons entirely.
Given their features are very weirdly human (compared to the dragons who look like, well, dragons) it's possible they're connected to humanity through Darkness and approach humanity differently; Kaathe is a hardliner who wants humans to be darkness all the time, age of humans forever, whereas Frampt is more moderate and wants to keep the Fire going because there's still a pretty good place for men in the world while the fire is lit.
>>47241494He also drops the Hawk ring when you kill him.
>>47241494
>>47241479
>>47241421
>>47241377
The Giant Archer could have been from Oolacile- or the territory it became.
Perhaps he was a nephew/son/grandson/pupil of Gough before he was captured as a slave?
And now he just sort of protects the few white trees that grow in the area out of a sort of sympathetic nostalgia for his home?
>>47241499
>>47241480
I remember reading a theory from someone on /vg/ that was something like, this whole fire and dark cycling thing is something that has happened before, and eventually it ends leaving behind only grey ash, which ends up being the age of the ancients that we know.
And what i thought about that was, that if that was the case, then perhaps the primordial serpents once used to be a species much like hollows, and they tried to escape the cycle by turning into dragons, but they failed and became serpents, and now they're trying to make it happen again.
The flame reveals all, the flame obscures all.
>>47241553
That sounds perfect. The end of the age of fire results in the age of ash time ceases having meaning until new embers appear in the darkness
>>47241553
Given that Kaathe (and some item descriptions) talks about how there has BEEN a Dark Lord in the past (and therefore presumably an Age of Dark for this figure to be Lord of) it's possible they are relics, that the Age of Eternals is what comes between cycle stages, sure.
>>47241553
Problem with that is that the dark never seems to fade or weaken. I think the implication is just that people keep starting up fires whenever an age of dark happens.
>>47241553
>>47241575
>>47241582
On that subject, it could also tie into why Gwyn's son was willing to throw away everything to ally himself with the dragons.
>>47241477
Or he might just die after losing his purpose in life, like with Orbeck if you complete his quest. Though in that guy's case the scholar's might've he might've just suffocated from perpetual wax bukkake.
>>47241605
>the dark never seems to fade or weaken
I think that's just a selection problem; the games all take place during times when the dark is WAXING, therefore we never really have a clear picture of what it's like when the dark is WANING.
>>47241553
The cycle of Fire and Dark has been a thing since the advent of the First Flame and the dichotomy was made. The cycle is something unknown in DS1. By DS2 there has been both Ages of Fire and Ages of Dark that continuously cycle. By DS3 the cycling has gone on for so long that things are breaking down essentially.In DS3 the Usurp the Fire ending, you bring about a new Age of Grey by using the Dark within to inherit the First Flame, not linking it but taking it within you. You become a Lord of Hollows, who now rule this grey age, rather than Dragons.
>>47241642
Isn't the age of dark the point when the fire wanes?
>Manus, primordial man
>Primordial serpents
>Serpents are failed dragons
>Hollows are the natural form of men
>Hollows turning into archtrees
Men/hollows=trees=dragons=serpents
The Primordial serpents are the step between humans and dragons, trees are larval stage. Fire is unnaturally interrupting the process and must be put out. Oolacile was a false flag op, Artorias was going to be a whistleblower but Frampt pretended to be kaathe and fucked him, Gwyn orchestrated 9/11, New Londo is actually a pretty nice place
>>47241810
Yes, but Fire seems to always come back just as the Fire always fades.
>>47241835
Yeah because the fire got linked
>>47241821
How are you making the "dragons = trees" connection?
They existed concurrently, that doesn't mean they're the same thing.
>>47241821
>this land is peaceful, its inhabitants kind
>>47241862
People are trees and dragons, they're intrinsically connected. The process is inscrutable, but it is a natural one that was interrupted by the true invader to reality, the first flame. Essentially what I'm saying is: "Shut up nerd"
>>47242096
Carto, is that you?
>>47241858
Possibly, though it's also implied in Scholar of the First Sin, and in DS3's Dark ending that Dark and Fire are naturally cyclical.
So Hodrick is clearly undead as he keeps coming back to life even after being killed in his physical form
but why does Orbeck die? If he's undead he should be hollow, but in the archives he isn't moving. He LOOKS hollow but he should be running around being soul starved
>>47239681
>he lost his status as a god when Gwyn showed him the door
He was still around when Gwyn left to link the fire, he left his sword at Gwyn's tomb.
>>47240168
>1? It's what's left of a Hollowed Gwyn
The Soul of Cinder is all the combined souls of all of the previous lords that linked the flame
As of 1, the only one who linked the flame was Gwyn, so the soul of cinder just took on his form
>>47242800
He also might've sneaked in, or Gwyndolin and the other guardians of Anor Londo (if there were still any) might've made an exception for the occasion.
>>47242837
i think it's Gwyn, Solaire, Aldrich, Ludleth, Legion, and Yhorm combined
Someone had to link the flame in Das1, and Big M said that if Solaire reached the kiln he'd link the flame
i think that's why Soul of Cinder can cast lightning spears while Gwyn didn't
>>47240924
That's just the shitty translator wanting to put ough on everything. Smough's Japanese name is sumo. As in sumo wrestler. Literally.
>>47242878
No, it's literally the combined souls of all those who linked the flame, chiefly player characters.
This is why it's first phase has player movesets.
>>47242901
So I'm guessing the "gh" is silent? So it would be pronounced "Smo"?
>>47242918
Yes
>>47241642
Yeah but now you're just the Lord of Londor, the land of shitty hollows and hated by literally everyone.
>>47242917
>>47242878
Both of you are right.
>>47242837
There's a difference, anon.
Hollowed Gwyn is still that individual. Meanwhile, the Soul of Cinder is animated not by an individual will, but is just all the Ashes of the previous Lords of Cinder mashed together.
