Mimiron's Head Edition
Discuss the viability of the Warcraft universe as a tabletop RPG setting. Have fun, don't go full autist, and keep your cool. Keep your asspain to yourself. This is not /v/ or /vg/.
Previous thread: >>46917056
>>46947423
this is now female worgen edition
>>46947461
Defend anything the Orcs have done since MoP.
There are good Orcs out there, but anyone Greenskin that didn't back out of the shit they pulled in and since Pandaria is a scumbag.
>>46947529
Don't enable the guy getting buttmad over our discussions. We're having fun.
>>46947456
Still more attractive than actual female worgen.
>>46947456
Better option: Let's discuss Azshara's viability as a tabletop RPG villain.
How would you hand her?
>>46947627
Isn't Azshara still one of the most powerful figures in the world right now?
>warcraft quest starts on /tg/
>/qst/ is a board
what do?
>>46947627
She can go with any big evil force, its really easy to get her into the scene.
The problem is 1:She prefer not showing up herself
2: it will generally involve a lot of water, so if you have a guy who is afraid of the sea...
>>46947765
This is true. Despite being the queen of the nagas, Azshara has never made a personal appearance, especially if she can help it. Make no mistake that she's a big-time player. However, she never seems to operate solo; she's always associating herself with someone else's cause.
>>46947654
Yes, she's presumably much more powerful than the majority of demigods but presumably ranks somewhere below N'Zoth. She could probably take on a Demon Lord at this point.
>>46947765
Well, the first point isn't much of an issue, unless you really want a direct confrontation. Also, I think she's actually shown up in Naga form in-game at several points, and I've heard she can actually shapeshift back into elf form in Legion.
>>46947423
>itt: more CoC shenanigans
>>46947870
She actually showed up once, In dark shore in front of Furion, although she is using a sitin model of naga sea witch.
She apparently makes another appearence in Legion.
>>46947892
Once in darkshore, the model is more of a temporary sit in.
>>46947870
>Azshara has never made a personal appearance
1:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGCAXEca53E
>>46947529
I'm not defending anything.
That is the god damn point. I'm telling you that everything of it is shit. It's shit for orclovers because it puts their lovelies in a bad light. It's shit for orchaters because it's not even a well executed legitimisation to hate orcs, because there's barely any retaliation besides angrily shaking a fist or two.
It's universally disliked. I'm telling you to not take the unsatisfactory MMO at face value when there's no need for that, as we're not in the god damn MMO.
>>46947602
>We're having fun
Peter Parker is that you?
Really, guys. I beg you, stop beating the dead horse. People not only discuss the same topic, they bring the same beaten arguments every single time. Every. Single. Time. And if it dies in the thread, it just resurfaces again a few posts down the road with the exact same arguments, word for fucking word.
It is enough.
>>46948067
This is disappointing, to say the least.
>>46948067
RUSED BY SNEKS
>>46948133
It's hard to tell if that's her true form at all.
She shows up at 12:00 in this video, and she seems to be a shapeshifter. Either that, or it's some sort of projection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk0x4pmVmqE
>>46948501
My personal theory regarding him is that he's part of Ra-den's research into Void creatures, and that Uldum's architecture loosely resembles the Black Empire for the same reason.
>>46947456
Only a matter of time i guess.
These threads have been shit since the third anyway.
>>46947627
>How would you hand her?
Another lame aquatic villain.
If I was a PC I frankly wouldn't bother.
What's the best tabletop system for running a Warcraft campaign?
>>46947765
>>46949225
Its not too hard to solve the water "problem".
Just say she never enjoyed gargling fish piss and raises Nazjatar to the surface when the time is right, or have N'zoth pull it up with Ny'alotha.
>>46950245
Part of me thinks running with Mutants & Masterminds would allow full facilitation of Warcraft tropes and abilities. Warcraft is a relatively high-powered setting, and M&M allows even melee fighters to be extremely capable. I remember reading about one guy who converted his high-level D&D campaign to M&M, and the fighter actually felt like a god of war. You can design whatever different powers and skills you want and pull it off.
>>46950245
Depends on what your goal is within the setting
I would generally say D&D 4e, but if you want less combat focus it really doesn't help
>>46947423
>Discuss the viability of the Warcraft universe as a tabletop RPG setting
More viable when it was warcraft and not WoW.
WoW's storytelling overall has the issue of being so based around a few big names that it is impossible for divisive intrigue to occur. When Garrosh ruled the horde then it was the entire horde in seeming unification until they needed to change the plot.
Basically WoW, due to being a mmo, is terrible at giving you a ground level assessment of how the populace feels.
The fact the players are heros and need to be entertained broadens this divide as it would be a terrible idea to take the time to poll the baker on their political views.
For a tabletop RPG though all those little interactions become very important. Instead of working directly for Garrosh the PCs may be working for some Trolls that are not super happy. Forcing the PCs to avoid the Garrosh loyalist guard patrols (to avoid causing scenes/getting marked as criminals over small stuff) while not really fighting them. Basically in RPG terms not every force is enemy or friend as some can just be antagonistic "friends".
While this may seem like a small complaint, I would allege that it affects the entirety of running a Warcraft universe tabletop RPG. As a GM you'd need to add a great deal of fine detail to the world to flesh it out. Yet the majority of potential players will have experience with the MMO and will likely balk at such additions.
Can anyone explain Sargeras's betrayal in a way that doesn't make him sound like a whiny emo bitch?
>>46953305
take the beginning of The Culling, replace Arthas with Sargeras, Uther with Aggrammar, and Jaina with Eonar
>>46953305
>Titans create the universe
>Sargeras learns of the Void Lords and shits his pants
>Sargeras shits his pants again when he finds out they have a way to enter the universe
>Other Titans tell Sargeras to chill the fuck out
>Sargeras flips out and kills all of them
>>46953271
That is part of the problem, yes. The PC is regularly rubbing shoulders with the Warcraft bigwigs, but they don't have a real perspective of what the peasants think. Granted, this is mostly because peasants are idiots and/or aren't nearly as privy to the amount of information the PCs have. Remember, they still think the Lich King is completely gone, not that Bolvar is the new Lich King.
Peasants just have no clue what's going on.
>>46953305
Sargeras is right though tbqh.
>>46953271
WoW pre-Wrath was a lot more ground-level. It was mostly just you exploring the world with a bunch of random jackasses. You were a cut above the general populace, but that's standard for adventurers.
It wasn't until the later days of Wrath it started focusing more on the PCs being leaders in their faction.
>>46954203
Vanilla, you were travellers.
TBC, you were the vanguard against the Burning Legion in Outland.
Wrath, everyone starts taking you seriously.
As a PC, you were doing work during Vanilla, but it was the Outland campaign that really puts you on the map.
Fuck leadership roles. I just wanna kill shit, not deviate to inspire people, answer to a faction ruler I don't care for, or god forbid politics.
>>46954313
You have to deal with faction leaders because we need to make sure you're killing the RIGHT shit. Kill the wrong shit, and you may end up destroying the world.
>>46954497
>"Good job. You're the mightiest warrior we've ever seen... But you spent all day beating up endlessly summoned grunts when we needed you to carve through to the hidden portals that you were otherwise unaware of. We're abandoning this base or we'll be overrun- come pick up a quest next time."
>>46950950
She actually went back with Legion
Azshara doesn't care whose dick she takes as long as its big and powerful
![95c20e954e7478b226d2e2d1138df3d4-970-80[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/vHNZl8I.png "95c20e954e7478b226d2e2d1138df3d4-970-80[1].png")
>>46954313
I wouldn't mind that if you actually got to DO that stuff. Problem is, players aren't going to have any fucking influence on how the world or the plot progresses. You're not Commander Shepard, making choices that you'll be seeing the consequences of way down the line (let's pretend ME3 never happened), you're some schmuck on the Farmville railroad, sitting on a plastic chair, wearing a paper crown and holding your mass-produced Ashbringer replica.
Which is a shame, 'cause I'd dig a Divinity: Dragon Commander-style political system in a Warcraft setting.
>>46954634
It's why she summoned the Burning Legion in the first place all those eons ago: she thought she could take Sargeras's dick and become invincible. A Titan's dick was the only dick good enough for her.
>>46954295
Actually you are on the map if you played PvP and got quite high on therank.
Some NPCs in TBC will refer to you by your title rather than names.
>>46954695
but none of commander sheppard's choice mattered in the end.
>>46954706
So you fight in a shitton of Alliance-Horde skirmishes and somehow make Grand Marshal/High Warlord. That's about it. It means you're good at killing humans/orcs.
>>46954695
Basically. I'd rather be a grunt for good reasons than be a commander for bad ones.
>>46954760
What are you talking about? The Suicide Mission was a great way to end the series.
>>46954765
NPC's dialogue actually change if you outrank him for some TBC NPCs
They were planing on making it global but gave up later since very few people got high rank.
>>46954634
>She actually went back with Legion
Did she? I don't think there's anything about that currently in the Alpha. I heard there was some quest to kill Legion troops that also counted Naga, but that it's not actually available in-game.
>>46954933
it would make sense though. If xavius is an old gods pawn, azshara can be a legion fan
am i the only one having a hard time believe a black elf can be this attractive? a high/blood elf sure. anyway its obvious shes desired because of her enchanting magic. she physically looks just like some random skank im sure
on that note when are we going to see some big titty elf girls?
>>46956630
Who are we talking about?
>>46956752
azshara
>>46954634
>>46954933
>>46956364
That's not accurate, she has her own motives and it's Xavius that apears to have gone crawling bqck to the Legion.
>>46956630
Knaak frequently mentioned she used magic to make herself look hotter than she already was.
Which, based on his constant reminders, is pretty damn hot.
>>46956912
how much of a hack is he?
>>46957078
>Her deep, violet skin was as smooth as the almost sheer silk garment she wore. Her hair, long, thick, lush, and moonlight silver, cascaded down around her shoulders and artfully curved backside.
From his War of the Ancients Book.
It's full of shitty, poetic descriptions of characters. There's this really cringey one where Malfurion thirsts after Tyrande and the guy compares her to Elune.
>>46957208
I'm just glad that most of his oc characters are dead now.
>>46954497
I'm a druid, I don't answer to mortal affiliations. The balance of Azeroth trumps what humans or orcs think matters.
>>46957346
Too bad the story and narrative is more focused on the humans vs orcs now isn't it?
>>46957304
Vereesa is still around though. I don't know if she was an OC was it was obvious he wrote her as a waifu.
>>46957208
please post more
>>46947892
As a Night Elf, she was gauged by Mannoroth to be powerful enough to be compared to Archimonde or Kil'jaeden. Now that she's been empowered by the Old Gods, it's pretty likely that she's on the same tier as they are.
>>46957504
When Malfurion lusts for Tyrande:
>But from a thin pale child who had more than once bested both brothers in races and hunting, Tyrande had become, since joining the Temple, a slim yet well-curved beauty, her smooth skin now a soft, light violet and her dusky blue hair streaked with silver. The mousy face had grown fuller, much more feminine and appealing.
Jesus does this guy love commas.
All three books are filled with this. I'm not gonna root through them all.
>>46957775
english fags really love commons
people need need to explain to them that language isnt a science and trying to write something in a "perfectly correct way" is hopeless and stupid
>>46957837
oops commas
>>46957837
Because of the book's type, those two sentences I copied take up a paragraph's worth of space. That's total bullshit. No sentence should be that long.
To say nothing of his gratuitous use of "to be" verbs. This guy's writing is mechanically broken.
>>46957947
>tfw you write better than a blizzard writer
Feels good man.
>>46957602
I remember reading somewhere that she could of beaten the avatar of sargeras. If that's true she is probably stronger than Deathwing and is presumably stronger than any being currently on the planet.
>>46957966
It is a good feel. Though it's weird how bad a lot of these writers are considering they write so many books. You'd think they honed their craft more in the process.
>>46958025
They get paid to write quickly, not well.
>>46958001
She's probably weaker than N'zoth, though that depends on how much his prison is gimping him.
>>46958467
At the very least, she's bound to be more mobile. N'Zoth might have the edge in terms of pure power and ability to enhance others, but he can't really move around to do much personally.
>>46958925
To this day the physics of Azshara's outfit baffle me. That must be some of her ongoing magical appearance enhancement at work.
>>46959102
>if it looks sexy
>draw it.
>>46959102
women literally have cloths like that in real life you autist virgin. you just use double sided tape
>>46959102
It's a strapless bikini top, corset, and sarong. These are all things that women wear irl.
>>46959233
That bikini top is actually backless as well as strapless. Awful lot of tape to pull that off.
http://www.wowhead.com/npc=54853/queen-azshara#modelviewer:10+0
>>46959267
Or Magic.
Its amazing what women can squeeze/force themselves into if they think they will look sexy in it.
>>46947423
So, they're getting rid of quests, but this sort of shit is still staying? Why don't the Mods ever do a complete job FFS.
All you guys do here is have /v/ slapfights about whether or not orcs are niggers and shitty WoW race fetish art.
Most of which is furry.
Have you considered killing yourselves today?
>>46959267
Obviously her tits are magnetic
>>46959267
http://starcasm.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/JWoww_Perfect_Tan_Bikini_snakeskin.jpg
also as others have pointed out shes literally magic. how autistic do you have to be to argue and complain about "physics" in such a situation (and be wrong anyway)?
>>46958925
How strong is an Old God at full power anyway? It doesn't seem like the Titans had much trouble with them.
>>46959338
There was an alpha screenshot showing a planet literally covered in Old God tentacles.
>>46959298
Arguing lore is a healthy exercise, and it helps form the basis for other people's games. Warcraft just happens to be a rahter popular topic.
>>46959426
This. These discussions are fun and interesting and it's not like you're going to get this kind of coherence on any other board. I won't lose any sleep if they go away but for now I'll enjoy it.
Though there's a lot more salt in this thread than normal.
>>46959298
this. Where are the elf slave topics?
>>46959496
Eh it happens, we'll push through it like always.
So what's up with the deeprun tram? When was it built? How the hell did they manage to dig a tunnel halfway across a continent so damn fast?
Why didn't they run into any Old God minions?
>>46959725
well I have noticed that old god minions are around the places where they were imprisoned for the most part. There are not too many old gods between Stormwind and Ironforge.it was supposed to be from IF to Darnassus. Now that would be cool.
>>46959725
The Deeprun Tram isn't THAT deep. It's just along the ocean floor. As for when it was built, all we know was that it was started after the end of the second war. It was definitely finished before Vanilla.
>>46959725
Gnomes and Dwarves build shut remarkably fast. In Wrath they managed one of those huge airships. Now they have at least half a dozen of them.
As for why they didn't run into Old Gods. The only explanation I can give is Blizz wasn't married to that element of the lore back then.
>>46959338
Titans can kill them easily, but they're the strongest beings in the physical universe. Sargeras cleaved through an infested planet himself, and Y'shaarj (the strongest of the four on Azeroth) was literally ripped out like a weed. Anything short of a titan is vastly inferior to old gods on an individual level, but can overwhelm some of them with sheer numbers.
Y'shaarj was personally kicking the titan-forged army's ass and might have won if the man upstairs hadn't yanked him. N'zoth and C'thun were just beaten down without much issue. Yogg-Saron almost won thanks to his generals, but lost after Loken used illusions to make them turn on him.
>>46959298
So if we replaced Azeroth with Toril and Blizzard with Wizards, would it be okay? 'cause it's basically the exact same idea except when people stray into bitching about the MMO's game mechanics.
Have a stiff upper lip, dumpling. Things will be okay even if there's a thread you don't personally enjoy, my delicate little flower. Right now, there's a HMFY thread with your name on it, [condescending pet name].
>>46959338
At full power? Y'Shaarj's screams could kill people and shatter mountains. But as this guy says, >>46959403 , Old Gods can apparently get fucking huge if they're left unchecked.
When the Titans fought the Old Gods, they were merely the size of mountains. The Titans didn't have much trouble fighting them because the Titans themselves were planet-sized.
While the Old Gods weren't anywhere near as powerful as the Titans, they're still pretty damned powerful.
>>46959794
That sounds about right. I remember there was an old lore thing which claimed C'Thun took out a Titan, but it's not mentioned in Chronicles. I doubt he'd be able to kill an actual Titan, so it's unclear what happened there.
>>46959823
It was in a prophecy about his return written by a qiraji, so kinda biased, and even then it didn't make it clear if the titan died. Maybe it was just there to make C'thun look like less of a chump, or he actually managed to poke one in the eye when it leaned too close and the event was exaggerated, or the author/translator had confused an impressive titan-forged with the real deal.
Probably just a small retcon though. I don't think even blizz had figured out whether or not the greek looking giants were supposed to be actual titans or not back then, and whatever they'd written about old gods could probably fit on a napkin.
>>46959800
Anon, you're making me all hot and bothered talking pretty like that ;)
>>46957775
Read Thomas Mann then we can talk. That nigger loved fuckhuge sentences.
>>46959426
>>46959496
It would be nice if there was good discussion about it, but most of this thread is like I said /v/ tier discussion because the general has been up every day for like three weeks.
It's just a circle jerk at this point.
Like I said, I'm not bothered by people having lore discussions, I'm bothered by having a general stay up for so long that it slowly turns to shit.
>>46959970
That sounds about right. It'd be nice to get an update on what the current events regarding that are.
>>46960037
each thread has it's ups and downs.
>>46960418
Refresh and look at the sticky.
>>46960440
what am I supposed to see?
>>46960632
Huh, its gone. They made a quest board.
>>>/qst/
>>46960729
and?
How would you guys fluff Murlocs into a PC race?
>>46960901
I'd take the Jinyu. There's enough justification for it, although it would require another world-wide plot advancement since they only joined the Alliance during MoP, not before like the Tushui pandaren.
>>46961497
They're not Murlocs though. The Gorlocs of Sholozar could work though.
>>46959298
Like it or not, but Warcraft had an RPG and that makes it /tg/.
>>46961791
It's also had multiple boardgames, though they're all pretty terrible
>>46960901
>Race: Murloc
>Affiliaton: Mercs and Minions; No explicit bonus is gained or malus suffered from working with either Horde or Alliance
>Stance: Neutral-Hostile; most murlocs jealously protect their territory and will resort to violence when strangers from other races or even other murloc-tribes approach uninvited
>Prestige classes: Tiderunner, Nightcrawler, Huntsman, Bloodgill, Plaguebearer, mutant
>Lore: The Murlocs are a race of sapient fishmen scouring the coasts and rivers of the Eastern Kingdoms for food and resources. Their origins are rumoured to lie somewhere deep among the myriad ruined islands in the maelstrom, although nobody has ever dared venture this far and confirm this assumption.
>Murlocs tend to be very simple and childlike in their thinking, rarely acting on logic and reason. It is because of this that other races look down upon them and view them as outstandingly clever animals, at best. Instead they have honed senses and an inherent cunning, which allows them to quickly react to threats in their natural environment. They put great value in survival and a sense of community, which is why the tribal family of a murloc is the centrepiece of his entire life. Being excommunicated is a great shame and usually equals a death sentence, as the tribe provides shelter and support when the individual murloc is attacked by predators or even other sapient races. Because of their naturally flexible and slippery bodies, they are highly agile and have a natural disposition for adventuring professions that focus on acrobatics and stealth, while their strong sense of community gives them an inherent capacity to employ tactics based on fighting in groups.
>They worship the cycle of the ebb and flow and local water elementals to give them their blessing, although many murlocs have formed cults around the naga, who have started to herd them as cheap labour force as of late.
>>46959233
In that particular pic, it appears she's wearing a backless, strapless push-up bikini top. Which would certainly require magic to pull off, because physics.
>>46963107
>Night Elves
>Titanmagic, arcane power blessed masterrace
>Needing magic to maintain them perky tiddies
Sorry to say, my friend, but we all know that Night Elf booty was eternally HNNNGG even before the Dragon Aspects' blessing.
Speaking of Dragons, what the fuck is up with not being able to reproduce, anymore?
After their initial, stereotypical description in Warcraft 2, they were literal gods among mortals in Warcraft 3 and vanilla WoW. Then they slowly, but steadily started to get degraded and de-levelled, losing their rank to mortals and now they're even bound to die out?
Being a dragon is suffering. Not even proto-dragons have it this fucking bad.
>>46963698
They probably want to undo the whole "dragons are godlike guardians of the world" thing, but since they can't retcon it outright at this point they depowered the Dragon Aspects and made dragons unable to reproduce, so now they no longer have the numbers to directly intervene in things, and will slowly die off, leaving the spotlight to mortal races (ie. PCs).
Do what is Blizzards justification for Illidan turning the holiest place in Outland into a whore house with human sex slaves?
>>46963698
>Titans build the world because science.
>Imprison the Old Gods there for some reason.
>Decide to fuck off somewhere else.
>Create five dragon demigods to watch the house for them.
>Each has dominion over sex, dreams, magic, time, or dirt.
Warcraft lore is weird.
>>46963698
night elves got the booty because trolls got the booty.
>>46958025
Well, what would you have done with warcraft three then say you were given an idea of there needs to be amother warcraft game and that the burning legion is showing up that needs to be beat back by humans elves and orc. How do
>>46964149
don't worry about it, Anon, he's a warrior of the light now
>>46964149
It's a perk he's entitled to as the guy who reks the legion.
>>46964149
fuck off Akama, learn to fight if you don't want to get kicked out of your shitty little temple
>>46959725
I think you would need to dig deep, as in deeper then the mariner trench thing we have here to actually get old god shenagins.
What I want to see what gnome land would look like when it's not, you know utter shit. I mean we have so many guys able to just fuck shit up but we can't just fix the damn city?
>>46961518
>>46961497
They are still considered evolved Murdock so it's somewhat the same thing, kinda like having a pc be a ape when you have humans aviable.
That bugs me a bit, I lost out on the lore bits in panda land, what was the deal with the gish and monkey?
>>46964341
Mogu had access to fancy titanic tools that allowed them to reshape races. They took a bunch of the lesser races, and shaped them into slave races, iirc. Thats how the pandaren, jinyu, and hozen got to be more advanced.
>>46964149
He probably keeps those concubines around for the benefit of his troops. He's incapable of getting it up for anyone but Tyrande and the whole reason he turned evil was because she wouldn't fuck him.
And to be fair, Karabor was a total shithole well before he arrived.
>>46964491
>be woman growing up in Stormwind
>get conscripted into the army to fight under Lothar when you flee to Lordaeron
>fight the orcs from Southshore all the way to the Black Morass
>enjoy the peace while they're beaten
>when the Warsong Clan comes, you answer Trollbane and Turaylon's call to save Azeroth once again
>follow them through the Portal onto Draenor
>stop Ner'zhul from opening more portals, barely survive when Draenor is destroyed
>chill on Outland for 16 years until Illidan shows up
>get captured in one of the Sons of Lothar's skirmishes with his forces
>he turns you into a mindbroken slut for felguard cock
>6 years later 25 random murderhobos come and kill you
>>46964607
Honestly that's if you're lucky.
If you lived in Elwynn then there's a good chance Hogger stitched you or someone you knew into his tent.
The Warcraft universe is a shitty place if you aren't a PC or Faction Leader.
>>46953271
So an MMO where you see everything over one character's shoulder is worse at giving you a ground-level view of the game world than a top-down RTS game where everyone is tiny ants under your command? That's... counter-intuitive.
>>46964814
The problem with WoW nowadays is the story is basically an interactive comic book about Thrall, Varian, and the Special Guest Stars the PCs. It's not quite as ground-level as it used to be, though still more so than an RTS solely about fighting wars rather than exploring.
Basically until you get to around level 70 or so, it's true adventure and exploration. Then it becomes you leading military campaigns into the shit. Which I guess could be considered a natural evolution of a PC.
>>46964861
Oh god, that sounds horrifying.
I never played WoW, but I did play Guild Wars 2, and I actually thought about switching to WoW because I was sick and tired of how the story mode was 100% about this other guy and I was just kind of along for the ride. Guess it's a more common problem than I thought.
>>46964950
it wasn't like that until Wrath when they realized that having the Lich King die to 25 random dipshits was stupid, so instead you just stall until Tirion gets pissed enough to pull a lux ex machina out of his ass and one shot him
>>46964950
They kinda tried to tone that down in Warlords by turning the PC into the big badass military leader. As discussed heavily in the last thread, it kinda fell flat. An MMO isn't really a game where you can be the one true hero.
PCs should be the focus, but that should be PCs as in plural. That's how it used to be. They say they want to go back to that in Legion by having the new version of Garrisons be for multiple players. We'll see how that pans out.
Again, until you get into and past Northrend it's all on a much smaller scale. Not quite how it used to be since they changed a lot of zones in the Cata expansion but it's still there.
>>46964207
It still bothers me on a deeply personal level that they didn't do more with the troll-elf relation.
I remember that the first footage I saw of Warcraft 3 was Night Elves and I loved them for having a celtic and haunted/enchanted forest theme. Imagine my disappointment when they didn't deliver on the alleged "barbarian" elements that I had expected from those themes. I would have loved to see them as a "monster race" in attitude, but not necessarily in look. With the appearance of the troll-elf-lore I am constantly reminded that the NElves could have been a wonderfully paradox race, and now I'm left with a despicable caricature of the once enchanting concept.
>>46965008
None of that stuff really happen in-story, though. Like, nobody ever notices that these bosses keep coming back again and again.
>>46965008
Yeah but even in BC it was Maiev that finished off Illidan. At least in Wrath we were Arthas's target the whole time, which is a reversal on the trick he pulled on Tirion at Light' Hope.
>>46963783
Alexstraza even proclaimed that this is now the "age of mortals," as in protecting Azeroth is your job now.
>>46965191
Every time they do that (Dragonlance, L5R, etc.) it's a sign that the setting is dead and they know it.
>>46964491
As of the Illidan novel, Illidan is officially over Tyrande.
>>46965118
Nefarion was canonically killed off by adventurers.
As were C'thun and most of the baddies in Vanilla IIRC.
>>46965161
>Yeah but even in BC it was Maiev that finished off Illidan
that worked since it served to tie up a plot thread form TFT, where as Tirion was literally nobody until Wrath when he's all of a sudden the God-King of the Silver Hand and fixes everyone's problems just by showing up and being the writers' pet
>>46965212
Well good on him, I guess? It only took him 10,000 years.
Doesn't change the fact he went rogue solely because she chose his nerdy brother over him. Which is weird because once he showed up on Azshara's door and got Sargeras's gift he could have had anyone there. Even Azshara teased she might put out for him because of the whole "touched by a god" thing.
>>46963698
>>46963783
It's like they finally realized people generally didn't like Knaak... Then decided to purge or alter all his creations without any sense of nuance or proportion.
>>46965191
Well, fine, Dragons aren't the godlike creatures they used to be and went all Grey Havens on us. Cool.
But they're on a ride to go outright fucking extinct and somebody decided to remove the breaks and instead install a nitrous oxide engine.
That is just absurdly cruel.
It's almost as if somebody at Blizzard wascorruptedor something.I bet it's Kosak.
>>46965317
Nah I bet it was Metzen. He realized if Dragons were the one's doing all the coolstuff it would cut into spotlight time for the orcs.
>>46965290I liked Day of the Dragon and the War of the Ancients. But I also read the German translation which might have had some impact on the quality of the writing.
>>46964950
TRAHEAAAAAAAAAARNE!
God, fuck that cabbage. He ruined a perfectly good story about a Charr with daddy issues.
>>46965317
>>46965359
You guys are exaggerating the dragons plight. Wrathion is still alive and has an entire brood of uncorrupted black dragon eggs. At least the best flight will be alive and kicking.
>>46965237
Technically C'thun and Yogg are still alive. They got fucked up enough that they can't act, but not enough to truly die and spawn their own little disasters like Y'shaarj did.
>>46965445
They changed the plotline, he's no longer the one that takes the eggs.
>>46948073
I mean... anon is correct, guys.
>>46965512
Wait what? Who has the eggs now?
>>46965045
Is it really that bad to let the PC play that role in cutscenes? FFXI did it that way. I mean, we didn't get superpowers, and many times big-bads were "finished off" by a story character, but the PC was always recognized for their contribution. I don't think anyone would say "I am important, the cutscene said so, you don't get to be important too."
The only problem it could cause is if someone had to sit down and write a history or, like in this thread, a definitive lore when PCs exist. You might have to take a note from Dark Souls in that the PC is a being (Chosen Undead, Bearer of the Curse, etc.) that is known but unnamed. Or maybe a little bit from FFXII/FFTA and instead of crediting individuals, crediting guilds or factions with their contributions or efforts.
>>46965359
Frankly, I can't even bring myself to throw verbal shit at Chrisboi, anymore.
I watched a bunch of documentaries about Blizzard on youtube the other day and everytime they went to interview Chris, he seemed like a genuinely swell guy. Heck, at the BlizzCon where they revealed Overwatch he actually admitted to the Warcraft lore being all kinds of messed up in his opening speech.
He is nothing but a stand-up guy who is trying his best with the odds that're handed to him.
That said, it's undoubtetly true that a lot of decisions ultimately come from him and he has made very dubious choices over the course of WoW.
Seeing how he was involved in Chronicles and the upcoming film, I'm curious to see if he's learned anything. Judging by the Chronicles, he has improved, but we haven't reached current history azeroth yet and that's where he has to prove himself.
>>46965393
Fuck Trahearne.
Currently, are there wars/conflicts between the alliance and the horde in Azeroth?
>>46965594
I have no doubts Metzen is a great guy and I think he's done a lot of good for the story. Part of the reason WoW is so endearing is because it has a great team of people who made sure it has real identity. But he does really love his orcs and he loves putting them in the spotlight even more.
It's kinda how I feel about Joss Whedon. I think he's swell and he's made some great stuff. But it still gets rather stale when he throws in his creepy superpowered teenaged girl tropes into everything he does. Just replace River Tam with Durotan, and you have Metzen.
>>46965765
Skirmishes most likely but probably not major battles. The treaty is still technically in force before Legion arrives, Ashran being something of a SNAFU.
>>46965507
With Y'shaarj it had more to do with HOW he died (Pulled out like a weed with no regard for how deep the roots went) rather than the fact that his spirit died.
>>46965237
I believe Nefarian died canonically to a Horde raiding party that was originally there to simply kill Rend Blackhand. Because the Horde got World First.
Not sure if the kill for C'Tun had any similar effect.
>>46965445
Even then it's still just one last generation.
>>46965090
Can someone honestly tell me what kind of night elves they'd like? Because everyone seems dissatisfied with what they turned out to be. Elaborate on the culture of barbaric elves.
>>46965535
Personally, I'm not a fan of the cutscenes they've been doing. It was a novelty in Wrath but now it's getting a little old. I think it should be kept to quests, not raid encounters. Killing a boss then watching a couple of chucklefucks who were sitting on the bench the whole fight swoop in and argue about who's in charge now is getting old.
>>46965765
Everything is escalating as per Legion. Jaina is pushing an anti-horde/anti-orc agenda and her strongest supporter is Genn, who hates the Forsaken's guts, but all major war efforts against the Horde has been stalled because there's burning meteor golems falling from the sky and murderous notVampires are infiltrating the perimeter hellbent on shredding you alive.
I don't think there's any official war efforts from the Horde against the Alliance at the moment, because they've overextended under Garrosh, gotten their shit kicked in and Thrall and Vol'Jin have done their best to mend relations during Warlords-period, so they kept a relatively low profile.
>>46965773
As I said, it's undisputed that his work is a very onesided thing, so he definitely needs somebody to reign him in. At the same time, all the new stuff I see seems very promising, like Chronicles, the film and the children's book they're planning.
>>46966020
>Thrall and Vol'Jin have done their best to mend relations during Warlords-period
Horde naval missions literally involve raiding Alliance forts for resources.
Though at least they're not actually trying to get back into a war anymore.
>>46966080
>Horde naval missions literally involve raiding Alliance forts for resources.
>tfw the draenei pay for your WoW tokens
thanks m8's
>>46966080
You also have missions to save the other faction from Iron/Felhorde subs.
>>46966080
It's the same for both factions. When you unlock the sea that's at the other faction's garrison you unlock the naval treasure missions that are mostly fluffed as opportunistic resource raids.
People actually read the mission tables?
>>46965956
I can only give account on my personal perspective.
The traditional, pop-cultural elf stereotype as an arrogant ponce is too clean and thus makes them completely unrelatable, especially when their alleged sophistication is comically overplayed to wimpiness. By removing this sophistication and making them "barbaric", they become much more humane, because they face actual problems and actually get their hands dirty, be it because of hunting game or fighting enemies.
The Night Elves were probably the first instance where most of us were even exposed to the idea that elves could be dirty, filthy, angry and, to an extent, scary. Being nocturnal just added to their mysteriousness and alienness, because elves were always those "light" kind of guys.
At the same time, Night Elves weren't just bizarro-elves, like the Drow are. Night Elves aren't mindlessly overplayed as being the exact opposite of "regular" elves, but a genuine different culture of elves that had a spectrum of alignments and personalities, ultimately wanting to do good for their community but not being above manslaughter and collateral damage when they threw a serious fit.
Next up is the fact that barbaric elves are interesting because they're more than meets the eye: Yes, of course they're beautiful and alluring, but their behaviour is angry and they can be utterly savage. It's the same fascination they inspire that a hunting predator does, which is why them having black panthers and other big cats as mounts is actually the perfect association. The paradox signals you get from them is what draws you in.
I remember the Night Elf on the Warcraft 3 cover art having just slightly emphasized canines, which I interpret as fangs. This just adds to their subtlety - Up close, they were 'monstrous', unlike orcs and trolls who are attributed as beastlike from miles away.
>>46965956
Tbh I'm pretty fine with "basically normal elves, but in purple" along with their military aesthetics, priesthood and druidic orders, the way they are.
I think there's place for decent elves like whatshisname Illidan killed, or stabby elves like Thisalee, or passionate elves like Tyrande.
Obviously you can't please everyone though.
>>46966402
which is funny because the other faction never builds their garrison, but when you build your shipyard, an opposing shipyard randomly appears in the empty land where Frostwall/Lunarfall WOULD be
>>46966673
Honestly I also don't mind Night Elves. They're not for me, but they certainly have a lot more personality than most fantasy Elves.
That to me is such a huge draw in Warcraft. All of the races have so much personality and identity, it's great. Even the game's humans are really distinct.
>>46966593
So say you had the power to rewrite nelf lore. What would you change about their architecture, culture, interaction, government, etc. from what we've already seen? What would you keep?
>>46965956
WC3 ones were fine. But then they turned them into generic hippie elves, and made their women into giggling schoolgirls with titty-bouncing idle animation.
>>46966695
That does bother me. I wish they phased a horde garrison in, perhaps some default structure or as mirror of player's setup. Especially considering that they have their outposts in Tanaan and elsewhere.
>>46966593
This is also why TFT's Blood Elves were so intriguing: They basically were still High Elves, but had to abandon their sophistication in order to survive, although they still maintained some dignity in their behaviour. The restored half of Silvermoon actually destroyed that survivor feeling, because it gave them back a safe retreat where they could re-assume their sophistication and "wimpiness".
It's also what differentiates Tolkien's elves from all those who allegedly copy his works: His elves get down and dirty and fight bloody wars and suffer greatly. Their sophistication shows in what marvelously great places they make to live your daily live and not in them talking unnecessarily flowery. And those very places are only save and great because there's guys who lead shit lives at the border to keep all the bad shit out and those guys are fucking hardcore.
In conclusion, it's all because barbaric elves don't feel so shallow, although even that concept can be executed very poorly. It is definitely true that you don't have to make elves animal-skin wearing cavemen when making them simply more sturdy in body and mind would suffice. At the same time, it may be easier to be this drastic to quickly get the point across that your elves are elves that mean buisiness.
This is, sadly, completely forgotten in WoW, where due to whatever circumstances, the NElves have been pushed back into this cleanly state of shallowness. Also, there's the fact that, despite Night Elves being finally confirmed to be evolutionary related to trolls, there's no sign of that in modern WoW. Looking back, the ruins of Suramar in the TFT campaign could just as well have been a variation of Jungletroll architecture. With Chronicles, they went another step and made the Dark Trolls, who used to be the most beastlike troll-species, into the most spiritual and evened out guys who followed the mystical call of the Well of Eternity.
Night Elves should act like Worgen do now. Savage but noble and just a little saucy.
>>46966890
Horde version makes sense since Taylor already set up a garrison before he got CULTed.
>>46967068
> act like Worgen do now. Savage but noble and just a little saucy.
Unless you go to Stormwind on an RP server.
Then they're just "Nuthin' personnel, kid" the race.
>Vol'jin's Funeral Pyre (New) - Max players: 5.
>>46967291
Vol'jin is MIA, presumed dead.
>>46967381
Does this mean the Big Guy gets to be Warchief now?
>>46966815
First, I would make some slight alterations to their biology. They'd still have a tweaked form of regeneration, but they require the moonwells for that. Definitely play up the fanged teeth part, as well.
I would keep all of Warcraft 3 and TFT current-day architecture, maybe alter it slightly to better fit in with the celtic/nordic theme by adding long- and roundhouse elements. I would also definitely play up the burial mounds, such as it is not only an exalted building for druids but equally so a civilian house, based on the region.
I would also make Demon Hunters more present in Night Elf society, being frowned upon but tolerated as a necessary evil or even a minor, but strong religious practice. By extension, Satyrs would have a much more ambivalent relationship with Night Elves, the former having embraced a sort of "dark druidism" which incorporates the more sinister sides of nature. Regular druids would also be much more beastial, knowing full well that nature is not only tranquil, but full of dangers and that survival requires action, not solely reaction.
Their government as a theocratic military dictatorship is fine, although I would expand on brigades and local sentinel corps being like extended large families.
They would be more open to the Horde after the battle of Mount Hyjal, primarily because of their somewhat stable relationship with the Tauren. Their relationship with the Darkspears would be very much like two troll tribes, with the difference that Night Elves aren't as tall and toothy. I would keep their social tensions with the orcs over Ashenvale, but expanding on a strong mutual respect due to either side's martial prowess and ferocity.Cue half-orc Night Elves
That's about it. Maybe add more tribal warpaint when going to battle.
>>46967537
It's Sylvanas.
Another example of an elf who has finally given up on playing clean, but ultimately started to wallow in and throw around so much shit that nobody wants anything to do with her.
>>46967594
You are a fool if you don't believe Baine will be warchief by the end of this expansion
>>46967639
That implies Sylvanas somehow abdicates the throne.
>>46967663
That or she finally goes even more off the deep end than she already has and gets raid boss'd.
>>46967693
Are we gonna get Jaina reaction pictures, captioned "Proudmoore was right again/this time/all along"?
>>46967594
Why would it be Sylvanas? This is such a transparent play at making yet another Horde leader into a raid boss.
Another reason for me to gravitate back to Alliance I guess. The Horde changes Warchiefs more often than Varian changes socks.
>>46967639
BAINE?
>>46967569
>nelves not being lapdogs of the Alliance
>>46967750
Well, if we look back, no warchief save for Thrall has been in charge for more than a single war.
Also there's been numerous rumours based on the cinematic trailer and various pre-views and questtexts from the alpha/beta or whatever state the expension is in, that Sylvanas is now in charge of the Horde after Vol'Jin went MIA on the Broken Shore.
And regarding Varian - He's not going to be changing many socks in the future.
>>46967808
Dr. Manastorm? I'm SI:7!
You don't get to bring party members!
>>46967750
As >>46967870 says, Vol'jin - the current Warchief - goes MIA on the Broken Shore. The only other two leaders of the original New Horde, Thrall and Cairne, are either retired or dead. Since Lor'thermar, Baine and Gallywix haven't been in a leadership position for as long as the Dark Lady, Sylvanas is automatically the new Warchief by right of seniority.
For the record, Saurfang is the orc racial leader in Legion.
>>46967995
>Saurfang is just a racial leader.
>Not the Warchief
You know, I never thought Thrall could be more incompetent when he's not leader than when he was. Him stepping down really was the gift that just keeps on giving.
If Saurfang was made Warchief like he should have been all along, none of this nonsense would ever have happened.
>>46968037
Saurfang doesn't want the job. He's a soldier, not a politician. Besides, he probably wants to take it easy after his kid died in Northrend.
>>46968049
Tbh, that's exactly why he is the best man (or orc) for the job. He isn't in it for power, and thus would be less likely to abuse his position. It's a job he doesn't even want to do, but somebody's got to do it and he's the most qualified person for the post.
>>46968049
Garrosh didn't want the job either. He was a soldier, not a politician. Besides, he probably just wanted to command the Horde's armies from the frontlines.
>>46968049
Is there really much politicking when you're Warchief? Aside from a few talks with Jaina Thrall wasn't doing that much diplomacy. He kind of just told everyone he was in charge and since he had the biggest hammer no one argued with him. Then when Garrosh took over Cairne protested and they took it out back. After Garry thrashed Carine that was basically the end of it.
I feel a guy like Saurfang would do really well considering most of the politics of the Horde come down to just being the biggest baddest motherfucker around.
>>46968114
>Is there really much politicking when you're Warchief?
When you have to deal with the Forsaken, blood elves and goblins AND potentially parlay with the Alliance, yes.
>>46968126
I dunno, Lor'themar seems content to fall in line so long as whoever's in charge is reasonable. And Saurfang is reasonable with a capital R. Goblins just want money.
I'll concede the matter with the Forsaken. Even Thrall could barely keep them on a leash. Garrosh cracking down on them after Sylvanas's pet doomguard "went rogue" was one of the smarter things he did. But I think since Saurfang is so well-liked it wouldn't be hard for him to get competent and loyal liaisons representing Kalimdor in Undercity.
>>46968096
too bad, if he didn't want to be Warchief, he shouldn't have been Thrall's surrogate brother
>>46968187
Dreadlord, not doomguard. Major difference.
>>46968187
There is not a single Horde figurehead whom Sylvanas genuinely respects. She will always be doing something behind the Warchief's back. Now that she's the Warchief herself, she can be as public as she wants, and no one can stop her. Assaulting Undercity would be a heavy undertaking, and the Horde doesn't want to go through another Siege of Orgrimmar.
>>46968201
It's really easy to mix all these demon names up. So many of them are some variation of "darkbad"
>>46968236
At what point does the horde decide that allying with the forsaken isn't worth the headache, though? The undead joining the Horde always seemed kinda shoehorned for faction parity in the first place, I'm honestly beginning to question why they don't just say "We have no real reason to care about the Eastern Kingdoms, have fun with all those pissed-off Humans and Worgen you're surrounded by?"
>>46968323
Because outside of the blood elves and that one camp at the southern tip of Stranglethorn Vale, the Forsaken are the only significant Horde powerbase in the EK.
>>46968323
Pre-Cata Forsaken were a lot less antagonistic. They were mostly just struggling to survive. This struck a chord with Thrall because he fancied his Horde as a home for wayward outcasts living in a world that didn't want them. And there's a practical advantage to having a large-scale base on that side of the world.
Some of the Horde liked them, others didn't trust them. Some Forsaken got into the Horde scene, others just saw it as a convenient resource boost.
>>46968236
I can't imagine the Horde would just bend over backwards for Sylvanas just because "oh well she's in charge now". That already happened once.
And besides if she gets too crazy the Alliance will step in, and I know the Horde doesn't want that because then they'll just lose that entire foothold.
>>46968382
ANd stonard, and from Cata-WoD the horde took over the Dreadmaul camp's onrthern section in Blasted Lands
Also the Revantusk, also the Frostwolves though initially they needed forsaken backing for that.
>>46968382
Well there's Stonard in the Swamp of Sorrows, and then there's New Kargath in Badlands...
>>46968323
Back in vanilla it was all about the cold war and rising tensions between the RedvBlu, which included securing potentially important strategic ground, either from gathering resources or as operational bases for offensive measures.
Now, after several years of the conflict escalating until eventually shit hit the fan in Cata and MoP, the Horde is just in too deep with the undead to withdraw. Lordaeron is still a largely fertile region with many natural resources to claim, and the Horde's infrastructure is severly damaged. They need that shit.
Also their cooperation with the Forsaken has lead to so much bad blood that no appeasement will really make a difference, so giving up the military force that the Forsaken represent would mean to severely weaken their own manpower, which in regards to being on the brink of another escalating conflict is a stupid idea.
>>46968246
Yeah. I mean, there's doomguards, terrorguards and doomlords, who are all basically variations of the same kind of demon, but then you've got felguards, wrathguards, dreadlords and pitlords, who are all completely different kinds of demon.
Come to think of it, probably half of the Legion demons are called "X guard" or "X lord".
>>46968595
>Come to think of it, probably half of the Legion demons are called "X guard" or "X lord".
and then there's the Mo'arg, Gan'arg and Shivarra that they couldn't come up with a catchy name for
>>46968595
Doom Lord (And High Lord) seem to be ranks within the Doomguard much like Fel Lords within Felguard.
Terrorguard/Terrorfiends were their own thing with the same general animation skeleton but a cooler face and horns, plus an extra face on their abdomen, but with the lock upgrade they became even more closely linked.
(I hope the terrorfiend update is better than the Doomguard one, god the face is too human on the new DG, and too much like a mirror job at a band angle, still slightly better than the Vanilla Doomguard, but even Vanilla Kazzak was better.)
>>46968639
And Fel Guard *ARE* Mo'arg, plus there's a new Mo'arg brute in Legion which is pretty cool.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/
>Stormwind Park Update (Spoilers)
>It looks like the hard work has paid off and the park will finally be repaired in Legion!
WE DID IT BOYS
>>46968740
Yeah, it's a mausoleum forVarian.
>>46968049
>Look, Saurfang, I really get you. But honestly, look around you. What are your options?
>On this side, we have a Tauren so old that he could keel over any minute and a Troll still trying to retake his islands.
>On that side we have the greatest undead Cunt in Azeroth ever since the Lich King died, a Blood Elf and that brown retard over there.
>Oh, yeah, and there's that Goblin that I made boss of the other Goblins for whatever reason
>So Orc the fuck up and get on that throne, or I swear to god, I'll give the retard the job and then you'll see what happens.
>>46968866
Baine's problem is that he's too green and has a bit of a temper, and the Echo Isles are already recovered.
>brown retard
Who?
>>46968761
the grave will be in the park it won't be the only thing in itstill hoping for a nefl/worgen district
>>46968915
he's talking about cata
>>46968866
Should have just left a council in charge, so that the Horde's interests would be fairly represented while Thrall was away. Then he should have kept his damned title and made it clear he was coming back after he was done, so the Orcs wouldn't throw a bitchfit.
>>46968866
Too bad that's now it happened.
>Garrosh, you're a bloodthirsty warmonger who wanted to spend most of his time in Northrend fighting the Alliance rather than the Scourge.
>But I'm gonna trust you because your dad was cool.
>Even though he was also a bloodthirsty warmonger who wanted to spend most of his time fighting the Alliance rather than the Burning Legion.
>But it's okay because he got better.
>But then he got worse again.
>But he killed a demon I didn't like so that makes him aces in my book. Get up on that chair I have shaman shit to do.
>>46968967
There WAS a council. When Garrosh took the throne, Vol'jin and Cairne were his immediate advisors. Cairne vigorously disagreed with Garrosh's policies, Garrosh said "1v1 me irl faggot," and the rest is history. He also booted Vol'jin out of Orgrimmar when the power got to his head, forcing him to relocate to the Echo Isles and Sen'jin Village.
>>46969011
>when the power got to his head
Wasn't kicking Vol out the first thing he did?
>>46969001
>>46969011
genociding the Warsong and Grimtotem would have fixed every problem that led to faction war in WoW
>>46969111
But those make up half of all Tauren and Orc OCs on RP servers.
>>46969011
>There WAS a council.
That's not what I meant. Having advisors isn't the same as a faction being led by a council.
>>46969135
>implying that doesn't make me more right
>>46969135
>Implying that doesn't make him mo-
>>46969231
Oh.
>>46969195
This. If it was a real council it'd be like that triumvirate which took over Ironforge after Magni got encased in carbonite. Garrosh didn't have a council. He had two people who told him to knock his shit off. One he kicked out of his city. The other he killed.
Everyone just kind of stopped protesting after that. Even Sylvy turned to more cloak and dagger stuff so she didn't have to deal with the guy.
>>46969001
Well, Grom wasn't too bad. He was clearly under demonic influence when he attacked the humans during the campaign, but the Burning Legion hadn't exactly shown up yet either.
All in all, Grom actually had more self-control than the majority of Orcs under the effects of the demon blood, and was generally a more rational and coolerheaded person than his son. Garrosh was the worst of Grom without any of his father's excuses, and entirely lacking anything resembling Grom's good side.
I'd have been happier if we got another Grom and had an unusually slender and skilled orcish warrior who knew the value of keeping a clear head in a fight, even if he did regularly fuck up and fail to live up to his own ideals.
The problem with Garrosh is that he doesn't even -look- anything like Grom. He looked like the opposite of Grom, being abnormally bulky, and behaved like the opposite of anything good about Grom.
>>46969343
>Garrosh was the worst of Grom without any of his father's excuses
>Without any of his father's excuses
As has been discussed in these threads so often people are legitimately buttmad it keeps coming up, it's been long proven Grom never had any excuses.
Grom was better than Garrosh, but he was still a pretty big douche and mostly fell in line behind Thrall because he saw firsthand where his bullshit got him. So I guess I'll give him that over his son.
>>46968967
>>46969011
You should keep in mind: A Warchief is a supreme military leader. It is, in fact, the only reason he has any authority, is because he has been elevated to the position.
Since Blackhand, being the Warchief was all about keeping the Horde focused. The Warchief's will is the Horde's will.
The Orcs are "the Horde", all the allies are "just" auxiliaries under the supreme command of the mean and green.
Even when Thrall opened up "the Horde" to create a state wherein his auxiliary-forces weren't second-class citizens, it was still the military supremacy of the Warchief that even gave the Horde some sort of administration.
You cannot rule "the Horde" with a council. You need to have a present Warchief. Thrall fucking off to get shat on by Aggra in the middle of the ocean means he cannot be Warchief, it simply isn't mechanically possible for somebody not "in charge" to be Warchief.
The title had to go to somebody, and that somebody decides whose council he heeds and whose he doesn't. The Warchief has sovereignity and supreme command and decides what people are put into positions of authority under his rule.
Garry-O's problem was that he still was majorly orc-centric, and perceived "the Horde" as an orc-thing wherein his allies are only auxiliaries that still answer to his supremacy. This understandably repulsed Cairne and Vol'Jin, who had come to understand "the Horde" as Thrall's vision where the Warchief was a first-among-equals in the Throneroom of Orgrimmar.
I wonder if we can fault Garrosh for this faulty thinking, because afterall it was Thrall who was supposed to teach him the values of the "New Horde" and have Cairne and Vol'Jin help further cement these values.
But ultimately, both failed, either because they lost their temper too early due to their hurt pride or because Garrosh really shut them out and didn't even give them a chance to break through to him.
[cont.]
>>46969428
Grom had some excuses. He may have been more than willing to fight and murder before the demon blood, but the demon blood still led to further acts of stupidity in his later life. Such as when he attacked the humans after Thrall told him to leave them alone.
However, it's important to remember the line about how he drank the blood willingly. Even if they changed it later so that it was a trick on Gul'dan's part, I feel it's still relevant to his narrative on Warcraft III.
The thing about Grom is that I'm pretty sure he knew he was a douche, even before the demon blood, and realized that he didn't live up to his own standards about honor. When Mannoroth said the two of them were the same, Grom understood it was basically true. If he had kept living, he'd have eventually fallen again and made more of the same mistakes. By sacrificing himself to kill Mannoroth, he managed to die as the honorable orc he wanted to be.
>>46969557
I like the short stories pre-wod because it shows Grom had a deep self-loathing and didn't buy into Garrosh's words about him being tricked into drinking demon blood. He knew he wanted power.
>>46969510
We can fault both Garrosh and Thrall.
Garrosh because he had no shortage of mentors telling him how to behave. The foremost being Thrall, with Saurfang offering some really sound advice. Garrosh also almost heeded Saurfang for a bit, citing the Overlord's teachings on honor when he chucked one of his generals off a cliff for bombing civilians. But he completely backtracked on all that and decided to see his vision of an orc-run world.
We can also fault Thrall. The guy spent all his time jerking off about Grom that Garrosh felt he had to measure up. Of course, anyone doing research into Grom would see he spent about 90% of his time being an absolute asshole to everyone. Thrall only barely touched on Grom's real redeeming quality, which as >>46969557 points out his ability to actually realize he's an asshole and try to make it right. If Garrosh had gotten that lesson, maybe things might've been better.
>>46969510
Garrosh is a notoriously terrible listener. Thrall spent the entirety of Wrath of the Lich King trying to beat Garrosh into shape to become a proper leader, not a bullheaded, bloodthirsty warlord who will brawl with the Alliance at the very first opportunity because lok'tar ogar. It never worked.
Remember the Ulduar trailer? Varian and others were talking in the spires of Dalaran discussing Brann's findings. Despite Jaina trying to stall for time, the orcs make it up to the conference. The VERY FIRST THING Garrosh does when he locks eyes with Varian is bullrush him and get to fighting. That's how shortsighted Garrosh was and forever remained.
>>46969510
But where have Eitrigg and Varok been all this time? They were weathered orcs with more willpower and were probably much respected by Garrosh and as far as I am aware there's no written accord of the two ever actually confronting him and putting his head right.
I am almost one hundred percent sure that he would probably have listened to at least Varok, because he's shown to have remembered his time in Northrend and his lessons learned there.
Still, regardless of who was at fault, the matter of the fact remains that Garry-O was a hothead lacking self-control, and he was handled by people who didn't know what to do with him and/or we can only assume used this fairly unpreoccupied character to push their own agenda, namely faciliating a point of tension and re-fuelling the faction war.
>>46969557
We must be careful what we mean by "getting tricked".
Gul'Dan promised the orcish clans enough power to overcome any foe, which was established before to be the Draenei pushing some secret agenda to subdue the orcs. That was the big lie - That the orcs needed to prepare and arm up against an enemy that was beyond them.
And even though they didn't really know what the demonblood was, they felt it deep down in their stomachs that it was something foul and decided to drink it nevertheless, seeing it as a momentary inconvenience when it ment it would give them more battlepower. Even without the "clear" threat of the Draenei, the orcish martial tradition highly played in favour of the orcs drinking the kool-aid, basically just seeing the ends to a means.
That they would become susceptible in their endless battlefury to be directed at any enemy and becoming incapable of second-guessing the suggestion was something they didn't see coming and probably wasn't all that much of importance, back then.
So we really have to look out what exactly we mean. Gul'Dan has offered the orcs something they wanted, but with strings attached that they didn't see.
>>46969557
>>46969665
>I like the short stories pre-wod because it shows Grom had a deep self-loathing and didn't buy into Garrosh's words about him being tricked into drinking demon blood. He knew he wanted power.
Or he actually COULD feel MU Grom's emotions through the shard, it's hard to tell.
Also Garrosh gave him enough to see thrall being trained by a Human to lead an Orc slave-army, and WoD REALLY should have mentioned that the Iron Horde thought the Orcs on the other side were all either slaves to humans or Shadow-Council stooges.
But no, Gorgrond was cut.
>>46969706
>>46969720
I'm willing to give Garrosh leeway up until Cataclysm, that's when he was still set in his naïve ways. What is prolematic is his growth during cataclysm onward, and especially his off-screen novel-actions. This is the time when he is officially in charge and his advisors support is questionable, at best, at least from what we're shown, but also his own actions become increasingly appalling.
They all knew he was a hothead and a reckless douche, but none of them apparently had the insight or empathy or commanded his respect or admiration to actually break through to him.
It's no use to have thousands of advisors when none of them are capable to market their advice, just as it's no use having thousands of screwdrivers but none of them fitting the screw, so you end up causing more damage than good. If you're lucky and skilled, you may still manage to get the screw in, but chances are good that the screw is messed up and crooked.
This is what happened to Garrosh. He is shown to show growth and awareness up until cataclysm, but then for some reason shuts down and becomes inaccessible.
It may very well have been the power going to his head, it may just as well have been him not dealing well with the stress and looking for an easy way to solve his problems, which according to traditional orcish culture is "punch until solved, repeat if necessary". And, again, his probably very orc-centric view on "the Horde" has led him to shut out about everybody who wasn't one of the Draenorhood boys.
Which, again, leads me to my question here >>46969721:
Where were Eitrigg and Varok _during_ the cataclysm and shortly before MoP?
>>46970048
>Which, again, leads me to my question here >>46969721:
>Where were Eitrigg and Varok _during_ the cataclysm and shortly before MoP?
Eitrigg was there, trying to give advice for a while and not being heeded till he gave up and went with his son, some Thorium Brotherhood Dwarves and Human Rambo to overthrow the Dark Horde army about to launch its second invasion of Redridge, and they did a damn fine job even if a few of the quests were a bit goofy.
I believe Saurfang was in Nagrand mourning his son until late MoP where he started cleaving the hell out of Garrosh's horde.
>>46970048
Saurfang was mourning his son in Nagrand, I know that much.
>>46967748
>>46967594
>implying Daelin was wrong
>implying Garithos was wrong
>implying Jaina is wrong
>>46970142
>>46970180
>Saurfang spent at least two years sitting on his ass on another planet crying about his kid.
I know that whole thing was rough, but seriously? Baine saw his daddy get iced right in front of him and immediately led a pogrom on the ones responsible. Then he took over command and kept his dudes in line.
You'd think an orc with a kill count numbering in the thousands across two planets would rebound a little faster.
>>46970503
characters aren't actually in the story unless blizzard is actually doing something with them at the moment
Xal'atath thinks Demon Hunters are idiots and that Illidan is full of shit.
I'm rather inclined to believe the knife.
>>46970142
>>46970180
Alright, so I stand corrected on Eitrigg possibly having an influence on him.
So the only one we can assume would have made it through to Garrosh was on another planet and was suffering from his own "orc fatigue".
Figures.
However I am still convinced that Garrosh could have been handled better by his advisors, who had their own preoccupations with him all in their own right.
So I say this:
In-universe, the understandable frustration of the smartest guys in his vicinity has had them retreat, but I am not sure if their fruitless endeavours were all because of Garrosh inherently being heedless or if the careless handling of others has fostered this behaviour in him.
Out-universe:It's bad writing, we should move on.
>>46970495
Daelin was traumatised and had good reason from his experience to wanting the orcs on lockdown. It doesn't make him right, but it also doesn't make him wrong.
Garry Toe has serious issues and I liked him more when his past was left unexplored. Also let's not forget that, despite having been 'fooled' by elves just recently, he decided it was a good idea to cooperate with yet another elf who is also undead.
Jaina is in a shit spot and I want her Warcraft 3/Vanilla self back, and also I want her to have Thralls green babies.
>>46970676
Rules my momma taught me: Look both ways before crossing the street, brush your teeth, don't chew with your mouth open, and never listen to talking weapons.
>>46970676
>a weapon made for Old God cultists talks shit about the leader of the Army of the Light™
nice try N'zoth
>>46970503
I absolutely get where you're coming from, but maybe it's noteworthy to consider that Baine has had a whole life sharing experiences with his dad. Varok only just recently managed to re-connect with his son whom he had already believed dead due to Draenor going pop, and suddenly loses his son again in an act of treason enabled because Thrall agreed to cooperate with dubious people, but this time he loses him for good.
>>46969135
That solves even more problems!
>>46970734
It's not like the talking weapon actually says anything particularly wrong or nasty. From the quotes so far, a lot of what it says is just how people are idiots for joining the Burning Legion because they're going to be betrayed.
>>46970753
Illidan's not the leader, and we all know the knife is right.
>>46970877
>ignore Twilight posts
>report Twilight threads
>do not reply to Twilight posters
>>46970916
Hey, if it was saying stuff like "Kill your friends before they kill you" I'd agree, but that's exactly what it's not doing. Even Aluneth, one of the Mage artifacts, has more of that going on.
>>46970976
Aluneth talks?
>>46971174
Yeah. I'm not too sure on all that it says, but it wants you to let it drain Dalaran of all its magic.
>>46970916
>Twilight
So uh, anyone care to explain how an apocalyptic death cult managed to get so flush? You kill these guys by the hundreds. Is Azeroth that shitty so many people join up with the Twilight guys just to help end it all?
>>46971391
Well, Azeroth has its fair share of apocalyptic death cults, so I guess we'll just have to say that Azeroth sucks.
>>46963107
>In that particular pic, it appears she's wearing a backless, strapless push-up bikini top. Which would certainly require magic to pull off, because physics.
why do you faggots just ignore my post proving you wrong and stupid? here it is again
http://starcasm.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/JWoww_Perfect_Tan_Bikini_snakeskin.jpg
its literally just adhesive. if you think tape is magic or defies physics i dont know what to say
i mean im pretty sure the invention of adhesive came along not long after fire
>>46971493
You can't push boobs up like that with just adhesive.
Also
>getting this salty when people on the internet poke fun at a video game character's outfit.
>>46971391
In the pre-cata patch the world was showing apocalyptic signs and the cult was recruiting from peasants in major cities.
>>46971391
>constant demon invasions
>literally nowhere is safe outside of faction capitals
>a literal god of death is waiting for your nation's military to weaken to kill everyone you know and turn you all into zombies
>on top of all of this, a giant metal dragon just destroyed half the planet
you'd start considering joining a cult too
