http://pastebin.com/NjH6gQqi
Previous thread: >>46821389
Pandora uploaded all her character art to Imgur, and provided a zip.
http://thenewminus.imgur.com/
http://www.mediafire.com/download/bsfqtd45b9fwbvp/pc.zip
(If you could start uploading them to urbfan.booru.com that'd be swell)
Someone linked Dreams of Avarice
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ctjmhm
And someone else linked the Demon Storyteller's Guide
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8lHuEeaOkFRM3BfNE80Y0dpSTQ/view?usp=docslist_api
>Question
How do you handle crossovers?
>>46838856
I don't really like crossovers because the themes tend to get very muddy, very fast. Rather than wibd up complementary, every single crossover game I've seen throws symbolic cohesion out the window in favor of a lame urban fantasy romp that loses out on the horror and the narrative meat of each game.
>>46838856
Avoid them. As long as I can.
There is the extremely rare occation where I'll run a crossover, but only after making sure that everyone is on board with the style & theme.
It worked 0/3 times.
>>46838856
>How do you handle crossovers?
Mages win
>>46839052
Why isn't there a Lodge dedicated to hunting the Seers?
When I do crossovers, I try to find something in common between the two (or three if I'm getting really fancy, I never go past that with on-screen crossover, though my setting assumes that all splats exist) splats. These similarities in theme or aesthetic will be pretty broad, but I don't need them to be laser focused if I'm going to be coming up with a decent overarching story line. For something like Vampire and Werewolf, I might focus on their predatory nature, or the horror of knowing the terrible truth underneath day-to-day life for a Hunter and Mage crossover. Once I have that down, I can make a conflict that can involve the parties and have them work together willingly or unwillingly depending on the nature of the theme. After that, I think about the logistics and how much hand-waving I might have to get away with .A crossover with Vampire's going to need either scenes at night, low BP/high Humanity characters, or heavy Ghoul involvement, for example. If I'm running something with mixed splat PCs (something I haven't done in a long while), I'd also need to consider if I need to house rule some template issues.
Once I'm sure everything's good to go, I run it.
>>46839076
While not specifically the Seers, I do plan on making a mage-hunting Lodge once we get the rules.
Also somewhat related, there was an OPP forum threat that described a Seer-influenced spirit acting as a totem and all the fun that caused.
>>46839076
Because they tend to not have parts of a gameline dedicated to specific parts of another gameline and you're capable of making one on your own.
>>46839076
Once the Pack comes out I hope someone makes a Lodge dedicated to creating a Tribe with Eater of Names as its Firstborn.
Who else Dark Eras Companion hype?
>Second Sight: Age of Spiritualism
>Demon: Russian Revolution
>Mummy: Cleopatran Egypt
>Promethean: Year Without a Summer
>Geist: Roanoke
>Werewolf: Forsaken by Rome
>Mage/Mummy: Mutapan Empire
>Vampire/Promethean: Black Death
>Promethean: 30 Years War
>>46839269
You could just make a Tribe with Eater of Names as a Firstborn.
>>46839284
Hm. Rome Werewolf should be good, and Black Death Vampire/Promethean, and Mummy/Mage Mutapan but I don't see much else to hype for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hundred_and_Thirty_Five_Years%27_War
I bet an Acanthus was behind this!
>>46839284
what's a mutapan empire?
>>46839284
Meh, only one Mage chapter, and it's shared with Mummy.
I'm more hopeful that Signs of Sorcery will actually be released within a few months of the Mage 2e core, and if the moons and planets are all aligned, maybe we'll see Tome of the Pentacle before Christmas.
>>46839269
Already on it.
>>46839337
West African empire that had contact with Portugal.
>>46839337
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Mutapa
>>46839353
you should be happy, nothing at all for changelings or hunters
>>46839284
You forgot that they added another one retroactively:
>Beast: The American Reconstruction
>>46839304
You aren't hype for what coukd be 2e Second Sight mechanics, or a ton of Promethean?
Has DaveB been around the last few days?
If so, has he mentioned whether Paradox has given the final OK for Mage 2e or The Pack?
>>46839382
The what? I'm a Brit so I have no clue what the fuck that is.
>>46839387
Nope.
>>46839391
He was in the last thread and didn't mention it.
>>46839387
I don't believe anyone at OP indicated that the chapter will include 2e Second Sight updates or conversions. I think the chapter will all be 1e.
>>46839395
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Era
It influenced a lot of the 20th Century in America, and one can argue that we're still feeling the after effects.
>>46839387
>American Reconstruction
Aren't second sight mechanics just built into 2e core? They're merits in the CoD book
>>46839395
period after the civil war when the country was being put back together
a somewhat less interesting period than the civil war itself
>>46839425
Do you think they'll be able to resist a Beast taking advantage of the fear of other races?
>>46839419
Nobody's said much of anything about it and the Aztec chapter gave us 2e Skinchangers. I can have hope.
>>46839391
Why would DaveB know anything about The Pack?
>>46839379
>nothing for changelings or hunters
Changeling 2e is in final development, DavidH released a massive draft of the books, and they announced a Hedge supplement. That's definitely not nothing.
Hunter 2e is still apparently early in development, and Monica hasn't blogged in a while. We'll probably hear more about it (and Deviant) and GenCon 2016.
http://theonyxpath.com/all-pitched-out-monday-meeting-notes/
>>46839337
A country in Africa that was where Mozambique and Zimbabwe are now.
>>46839452
Absolutely not. There's no doubt in my mind that we'll see a Carpetbagger Beast and maybe a Radical Republican Hero to even things out.
>>46839480
>Why would DaveB know anything about The Pack?
I was mainly referring to Mage 2e, but Dave, as a developer, is often in the know about such things.
>>46839510
Dave, what's the good word from Paradox about Mage?
How long might we have to wait for Signs of Sorcery after the release of the new corebook?
Thanks.
>>46839486
God, I have such high hopes for Hunter 2e.
>bracing for the crushing sorrow when they only announce Geist 2e at Gen Con
>>46839588
>when they only announce Geist 2e at Gen Con
Sure, if you mean GenCon 2018.
I'm also still reserving judgment on Hunter 2e. Monica seems nice and open, but she's revealed little to nothing about the potential direction or content of the new edition.
Considering much of the criticisms of Hunter 1e, particularly crossover issues due to the apparent splat power increases in the second editions, I don't envy anyone attempting to update Hunter.
>>46839588
they should be announcing a new game as well
or, hopefully, a supplement like dark eras
>>46839510
Where's my book Dave?
Don't make me get Big Ron to sort you out lad
>>46839703
Remember that Dave doesn't get paid until the book is published. I assume he wants it released yesterday.
Direct you indignation at Rich and Dracula.
>>46839679
>Considering much of the criticisms of Hunter 1e, particularly crossover issues due to the apparent splat power increases in the second editions, I don't envy anyone attempting to update Hunter.
has anyone complained about power discrepancies? hunter's always been about taking out powerful monsters
>>46839686
>Ideal Gen Con 2016
More info on Hunter 2e and Deviant, Geist 2e and Mummy 2e announced, Dark Eras 2 the big project for next year, Demon: the Fallen gets a 15th Anniversary Edition
>likely Gen Con 2916
More info on Deviant, Geist 2e announced, some supplements
>darkest timeline Gen Con 2016
Mage 2e still isn't out
>>46839754
Rich and Dracula aren't here though
>>46839686
I'd love a new Dark Eras-type book, myself. I don't know what you could do besides different time periods, though, the Storyteller's Guides seem to be covering alternative settings.
>>46839755
>has anyone complained about power discrepancies?
Absolutely. For instance, the complaints about Mage Quiescence and how some Hunter rules are in direct conflict with other core books have been epic.
In order for Hunters to remain viable in terms of crossover, the new edition needs to effectively increase their power level while still maintaining and emphasizing that most are still just human (unless this key theme is abandoned). That's a hard needle to thread.
>>46839837
I'd be perfectly happy with another Dark Eras 2, but I also pitched the idea of a book of different genres with rules hacks to fit; what does a noir game look like, or an urban fantasy one without horror, or erotica or police procedural or any other thing that springs to mind.
>>46839816
>Gen Con 2016
>Mummy 2e
I both admire and pity your boundless and unjustified optimism.
>>46839901
I really hope we see a supplement dealing with human mystery cults and updated information and rules for mortal psychics and lesser sorcerers for 2e.
>>46839914
Eh, there's only one supplement left in the timeline before the original run is over and I'm sure OPP wants to get everything up to 2e ASAP.
Is it likely? Hell no, but neither is a new Demon: the Fallen and I still want that too.
>>46839974
I hope that all the UA stuff finishes by the time Demon the Fallen 20th's development begins. I can't imagine the game without Greg Stolze.
>>46840034
The KS is only adding two more books, one of ehich is almost entirely done by guest writing.
Most of Stolze's work is already done, and is fucking awesome. If anything, Delta Green will be keeping him busier.
Has Ken Hite ever written for WoD/CofD?
If you had acquired mage early, just by a couple of days - would you leak it?
>>46840180
Seeing as I playtested it months ago, probably not?
>>46840088
Yes actually! He wrote a whole essay for Requiem for Rome, if I recall correctly.
He's also got some WoD work: http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Kenneth_Hite
>>46840215
Can you tell us how it went without breaking NDA?
>>46840180
At this point no. We've waiting this long, a few extra days is inconsequential.
Besides, we all know the problems the Beast leak caused Amy and Matt. Dave's been pretty good to us here on /wodg/, and he's the last person at OP that I would want to cause any problems.
If Beast add-on backers receive Mage early, as indicated by Rich, it's also still possible that we'll get an "early" copy without meaningful repercussions (although Mage will be a book I will definitely still buy to show my continued support for the line).
>>46840215
Give us your impressions and general opinions of Mage 2e without revealing any content.
>>46840180
Would I leak it? No.
Would I download said leak? Yes.
Still sure as fuck buy it anyway, though. I wanna vote for this with my wallet.
>>46840215
>>46840549
Second.
This time tomorrow our pack calls the sacred hunt on our biggest and baddest prey yet, the Hierophant of the Circle of the Crone for the county.
On one hand, really excited. On the other, worried. It's the one prey we have the least planning on and knowledge about, and our prep has saved our asses many times before.
>>46840604
Good luck! Hopefully the worst you'll face is just some Cruac tomfoolery.
>>46840604
At least have the good sense to hunt during the day.
I never understood why all those stupid people in the movies waited until nightfall to hunt the undead.
>>46840215
>playtested Mage months ago
It's pretty impressive that so many playtested the books a long time ago, yet no one has commented on the draft, no less leaked anything.
>>46839284
im so hungry for october revolution demons. boutta kiss lenin
>>46840782
Well, the playtest was several slightly different versions of the rule set. There's two benefits to that: 1. You get to test differences in the rules and 2. Since no one's using the same set, if it leaks, you know what group's version got leaked.
>>46840747
That is the idea. But we might have to do it in the dark, he sleeps with his coven and cult in an area the sun won't penetrate (an abandoned mine). It's probably full of traps and shit.
If its at night we can probably pull a hit n run on him before his buddies can do anything. It's how we ghot one of the mages before but this guy is uberbadass.
>>46840842
True, Dave did include some safeguards, but no one has even *talked* about their playtests. Given the hype and length of time, that is truly impressive.
>>46839872
>In order for Hunters to remain viable in terms of crossover, the new edition needs to effectively increase their power level while still maintaining and emphasizing that most are still just human (unless this key theme is abandoned). That's a hard needle to thread.
that's not necessary because Hunter has never been about crossover. You're supposed to be hunting things the GM's made with dread powers. Even in 1E they say this over and over again, that the full splatbook supernaturals are *significantly* more powerful than mortals and not to use them as an ST unless you think your players can handle them.
goddamn it.
>>46840878
Talking about it would lead to people asking about it.
I think most playtests didn't go out to anons on /tg/
>>46840861
Why would you attack a vampire at night?
>>46839872
>Absolutely. For instance, the complaints about Mage Quiescence and how some Hunter rules are in direct conflict with other core books have been epic.
There was one thread, and half of what you're talking about is mage complaining about hunter
>>46840887
The problem is that Hunter's in a game line where the fanbase encourages and desires crossover, even if they themselves do not actually play crossover.
>>46840920
>Why would you attack a vampire at night?
>>46840861
>, he sleeps with his coven and cult in an area the sun won't penetrate (an abandoned mine). It's probably full of traps and shit.
Outside, a surprise attack to stake him, a couple attacks to tear him down, then we're off before anyone's really reacted.
>>46840920
Because you can't get at him during the day.
>>46840861
>Hit and Run
Do better than that, set up a full blown fucking ambush if you can. Claymores, explosives, flashbangs, anything that can disorient Mr. Uberbadass before you finish him off.
>>46840887
You are right about the Hunter-specific monsters and dread powers, but we both know the fanbase has completely ignored this admonition, and it was passive encouraged since Hunter is set in the CofD and the basic ruleset among the lines are allegedly compatible.
It's really hard to offer a game set in a horror world where the PC are hunting monsters, and tell players to ignore all those other PC monsters in CofD games.
>>46840920
Why wouldn't you? Go hard or go home.
>>46840887
I use the normal splats for boss monsters. Things like a veteran vampire who's been a round a long time instead of some chucklefuck who just got turned.
>>46840861
>>46840947
>>46840969
Haven't you seen any movies?
Blow the damn mine!
Kill the coven and other lackeys before the vampire.
Also, can't you bypass many of the mine's defenses and protectors by going through the Shadow. No need for a frontal assault.
Hunt smart, take your time, remove allies and resources, weaken and harry your prey, use the environment to your advantage, and only attack the prey on your terms when you're ready.
Think like a viscous supernatural pack predator, not a human with some dice.
>>46841084
>Destroying the mine entrances
That's also entirely viable, but he might tunnel his way out somehow. It's a big risk.
>>46841084
>Blow the damn mine!
You have to go in a mine to blow it up.
>Kill the coven and other lackeys before the vampire.
That might be what we do.
>Also, can't you bypass many of the mine's defenses and protectors by going through the Shadow. No need for a frontal assault.
Can you put a locus in there for us? Because you can't go back and forth without one (or a special ability we don't have)
>Hunt smart, take your time, remove allies and resources, weaken and harry your prey, use the environment to your advantage, and only attack the prey on your terms when you're ready.
>Think like a viscous supernatural pack predator, not a human with some dice.
Well aware of how to hunt like a predator, it's just a particularly dangerous prey that has divination powers and there may or may not be birthed gods living there with him.
Another problem with the mine thing is it might not kill him, in which case we're stuck waiting for him to pop up and get revenge.
>>46841084
>>46841107
I forgot to add, bargain with spirits of the mine and the rest of the area for further advantage or as temporary allies.
Fight on your pack's terms and use your unique werewolf resources.
Again, if the mine is his fortress, destroy the mine. Even if he escapes, he's now on the run and lost valuable resources.
The pack needn't destroy the vampire in one battle. A fair fight is a stupid fight.
>>46841207
He's playing HUNTER dumbass.
>>46841084
I've seen a movie before. I wouldn't want my targets dying where I can't confirm them since that would guarantee it didn't work and I've lost track of them.
>>46841224
No, we're playing werewolf.
>>46841224
Or not, my reading comprehension is utter shit.
>>46841224
No he's not, he's explicitly playing Werewolf. It's explicitly a Siskur-Dah on the Heirophant.
>>46841233
Sneak into the mine via the Hisil and ambush, or blow the mine, go to the Hisil version (which admittedly will probably be really pissed off at you if it's not dead) and peer across the Gauntlet to confirm your kill.
>>46841224
>He's playing HUNTER dumbass
>>46841240
>No, we're playing werewolf.
The Anon was talking about his "pack."
Who's the dumbass.
Can the Hisil represent "classical" gods? Like a God of War or God of Wisdom.
>>46841403
It totally depends on the location of the Hisil?
Most places are a reflection of the material world. In some real life spots or very deep in the Shadow, anything in possible.
>>46841403
>>46841429
Anybody might consider a Rank 3+ Spirit a god of whatever concept they embody. Higher rankings are more likely to be considered Gods, with 6+ being almost guaranteed to be worshiped by any mortals who are aware of them.
>>46841397
Come on, he got it, there's no need to rub it in.
>>46841403
Sure. spirits can sometimes pose as gods too.
>>46841343
And ideally they haven't set up an eternal guardian of the dark moon or one of their other rituals to control spirits.
Which do you think are more likely to organize around pagan religions, Werewolf packs or Mage cabals?
I want a mythology-themed gang war.
>>46841521
Beasts, Hunters, and Mages most likely.
>>46841521
Throw in Circle of the Crone, too. Mages would be blasé about it, seeing the truth behind the pagan shit. Werewolfs had a lodge of Muspell, tho.
>>46841521
Mage Cabals or Columns.
Cabals would do it for the symbolism, while Columns would probably buy into the religion as fundamentally magical in and of itself.
>>46841464
>with 6+ being almost guaranteed to be worshiped by any mortals who are aware of them.
I do not think that the Maeljin would be very popular.
>>46841680
they have cults that cross all supernatural barriers, check out Inferno
chronicles of fagness
>>46842048
>gayracula.jpg
>>46839452
Fear of Revulsion is Namtaru, isn't it? Or is that Fear of Exposure? I forget.
>>46839284
Roanoke could be interesting. I'd have preferred pirate Geist, though. I was doing Pirate Geist, but had no idea what to do with the vast number of famous characters during the time period. Making them all supers seems dumb.
>>46839382
I'm interested in this, assuming they don't just focus on the areas currently called "The South". The Antebellum South was a really good time for cowboy stories. A lot of them take place after the Civil War. Hell, Wild Wild West was post-Civil War.
MOAR questions!
What are the rules on Discipline-use for ghouls without vampire blood in V20?
I mean, any Discipline that requires them to have some measure of vampiric blood is pretty straight-forward; if they have no vamp blood, they can't use a power that requires them to spend a blood point... obviously a Lasombra Ghoul can't use the first level of Obtenebration (Shadow Play) if he's already used all his vamp blood to heal himself or something, since Shadow Play costs one blood to use. So that's a no-brainer.
But what about disciplines that *don't* require blood to be activated (but might possibly need other rolls)? Like Fortitude, or Feral Whispers? Could a Ghoul still make use of those, even if (s)he has already used up his/her bloodpool on something else? Or would they just "turn off" until the Ghoul got some vamp blood back in their veins?
>>46841403
The astral is much better suited for that. Not only are their realms for the denizens to live in, but there are even the human ideal Gods within it. Such as Loki blood brother of Odin or Shiva the Destroyer.
While these "Gods" may not be the true gods but they actually fully belive themselves to be gods.
>>46841521
Circle of Crones. Its what they do.
So. I've slept on the idea of WoD Bioshock. I'm thinking of going with something similar to the Utopia Now idea (where a bunch of Libertarians use stolen Infrastructure to create their seasteaded dream city), only with a bit of Infinite's stuff with Comstock and his religion. Basically, the founder of the city was met by an Angel and inspired to build the city (the secret beautiful location of which I haven't thought of yet). So the secret to the city's success and it's ability to do what it does is all based on Infrastructure. The whole city is Infrastructure and part of some great big Occult Matrix for... something.
And instead of the 1910s or 1950s, it's going to be based on... the 1980s and 90s.
The high class fancy people will be dressing like Gordon Gekko and Futurama's 80s Business Guy and the technology will look all cyberpunk. The magical whatevers are all probably slap patches that give you Demon Form abilities. And of course the dregs will all be grunge and wearing denim.
>>46839818
So that's how those are made.
>>46827601
Why do I need life to teleport something if life is about changing natural characteristics (health, disease, body) of a creature?
I'm not trying to turn him into a portal, the only thing I'm doing is affecting location.
That's like saying I need life to set someone on fire with forces or to throw a rock at them with matter.
I could understand Space 4 but beyond that is just denial for the sake of it.
>>46844188
>That's like saying I need life to set someone on fire with forces
people aren't really flammable except at really high temperatures. it helps that we're so moist
How do werewolves affect spirits in Twilight?
I know there is a gift for doing it to Ghosts, and other undead things, but I can't find any similar for Spirits.
>>46844188
There's a difference between causing someone to spontanoiously combust, and just throwing fire at them. Forces alone does the second, you need life as well do do the first.
>>46844242
>How do werewolves affect spirits in Twilight?
>I know there is a gift for doing it to Ghosts, and other undead things, but I can't find any similar for Spirits.
There's at least a few ways. If you're 2 ranks or higher than a spirit, your natural weapons coutn as a bane for it, which affects it even in twilight (there's a nice ability that gives you a +2 to renown in your territory, making you a spirit rending machine)
there's also the whisper knife, which is great for this
mostly you'll rely on your totem (though you can sense spirits in twilight so you know what they're up to/where they are)
there's a nice rite that kicks everything in twilight out of twilight too
>>46844335
>There's at least a few ways. If you're 2 ranks or higher than a spirit, your natural weapons coutn as a bane for it, which affects it even in twilight (there's a nice ability that gives you a +2 to renown in your territory, making you a spirit rending machine)
+2 Renown? You mean +2 honorary rank? That's a neat one, thanks.
>there's also the whisper knife, which is great for this
Yeah. Only for weaponry attacks though.
But perhaps a similar fetish for brawl could be possible. Long strips of cloth one winds about the arms, perhaps?
>mostly you'll rely on your totem (though you can sense spirits in twilight so you know what they're up to/where they are)
Yeah. That much I got, werewolves with spirit senses on always see twilight spirits.
>there's a nice rite that kicks everything in twilight out of twilight too
Twilight Purge, yeah. That's nice.
In VtR 2e, how do I make the most efficient combat gangrel I can make at chargen? Or at least start on the path of being a combat monster?
>>46844422
>+2 Renown? You mean +2 honorary rank? That's a neat one, thanks.
yeh thats it
you could easily make a fetish that does the same for brawl or even firearms, the fetish rules are really good but people keep overlooking them
>>46844521
Ordo Dracul. Mystery of the Wyrm.
Start raising Blood Potency ASAP.
>>46842048
You're slippin', man.
You're slippin'.
>>46844590
So, the merit that gives protean claws agg damage during frenzy, and then just get real gud at controlling your frenzy?
>>46844521
put as many attribute dots as you feel comfortable in str and dex and wits
add brawl (or whatever weapon you want to use)
get vigor, resilience and protean
get merits atrocious, claws of unholy (when you can), ride the wave fighting style (if brawl), kindred duelist (if weaponry)
ordo dracul, mystery of wyrm
>>46844691
that merit requires 4 protean, which you don't start with
better to use vigor (adds str+ weapon damage) and resilience (armor+stamina=health)
>>46844701
Also. Go Kerberos. When the Blood Potency starts to rise, that one becomes monstrous.
Should I wait to get dots in Mystery of the Wyrm or make it my Mystery coil and just buy it with XP later? I guess it's more cost efficient to use my dots for normal disciplines.
>>46844823
It scales mostly off of Blood Potency, so you can save it for a short while. Until you have like BP 3.
>>46844757
>>46844701
to continue
obviously stay as well fed as possible
but always lash out, too, using monstrous beast
successfully lashing out gives you a +2 to follow through with what that beast wants (monstrous wants to fight/kill) while people who lose it against you lose 2 defense
when you win a lash out, you get a +2
>>46844902
>when you win a lash out, you get a +2
If you are a Kerberos, you get + Blood Potency. Which gets really insane at higher levels.
Especially if you already are a Wyrm-fighter.
>>46838856
>How do you handle crossovers?
Players all come from one book.
I never try to rationalise one Supernatural's existence through the other's cosmology.
>>46844335
>>46844422
>>46844242
>How do werewolves affect spirits in Twilight?
Don't forget about the Siskur-Dah Condition from a Bone Shadow Ritemaster:
"The Bone Shadow Sacred Hunt grants your character the ability to touch and strike ephemeral entities nominated as prey with her natural weapons"
>>46845509
i knew there was an easy one iw as forgetting
>>46845588
>>46845509
Ah. I knew Sacred Hunt allowed it in 1e. Would've been stupid to not allow it in 2e.
I'm gonna fuck Father Wolf!
There are no rules in GMC specifying that mortals start with Integrity 7, except implicitly by the fact that it 'replaces Morality'.
The CofD corebook is a fresh slate though, so it mentions chargen Integrity level. But there this leaves some huge gaps.
By RAW there is nothing saying you can't buy up to Integrity 11 and higher.
There's no rule saying it's impossible to lose your last Integrity dot, but also no rule saying what actually happens when you fall to Integrity 0. You could just keep going all the way down into negative Integrity for all you can tell from the text itself, without inferring things based on knowledge of 1e which nobody should have to do.
It's seemingly intended to be possible to fall to 0 Integrity, because it's mentioned as a Bad End condition in the House That Hates. But nothing describes it anywhere else.
This got brought up before but has there ever been anything official about it or errata.
http://theonyxpath.com/going-to-pressing-needs-monday-meeting-notes/#comment-455756
http://theonyxpath.com/the-return-from-milwaukee-monday-meeting-notes/#comment-443178
>>46845742
>You could just keep going all the way down into negative Integrity for all you can tell from the text itself
>>46845719
>I'm gonna fuck Father Wolf!
did you forgot to take your trip off, atamajakki?
>>46845719
>I'm gonna fuck Father Wolf!
Thanks for sharing ?
Don't forget to learn the Gift of Lube.
>>46845831
The text. Not the implied subtext of the breaking point table not listing 0 or such. It implies it's not a scenario that should be able to happen, but there's no actual REASON for it to be impossible.
>>46846185
Do you see Integrity 11 or -3 on that chart?
>>46845953
No need, Father Wolf is in fact an asexual gender fluid sjw.
What would your Shadow Name be? Ehat would you theme your cabal/column/pylon around?
>>46846213
>The text. Not the implied subtext of the breaking point table not listing 0 or such.
>there's no actual REASON for it to be impossible.
Do you see any limits or special cases in the explicit mechanics that raise and lower the number?
>>46846333
Olympiad was going to be my mages shadow name. But instead a ran a game and used the character as an npc.
>>46846333
The only Mage game I've ever played, my guy started out with the Shadow Name of Young.
Which was a reference to the fact that part of my concept for him was making myself a combat beast with Life magic, and this band.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P1utNegyt4
We never got a second session, sadly.
Any of the splats have merits that focus on the Social Maneuvering system (aka the doors and such)?
>>46848024
Also, side note, re: the video
>Totally a Thyrsus Awakening
>>46848041
>Vampire
None specifically relating to Doors, but Kiss of the Succubus gives you a nice bonus, indirectly, for working the social system.
>Werewolf
Strings of the Heart makes your impression one stage better and ignores a door
>Mage
We just don't know
>Demon
Nope
>Beast
Nope
Not gonna address anything else because the system only exists in 2e.
>>46848355
Thanks. I mean, you would think Demon would have something since the GMC was almost like a mini-introduction to Demon. But really their abilities are so strong in their weird ways that they don't need the help of the doors system 90% of the time.
I had no idea one way or the other with Beast.
I guess I missed Strings of the Heart, I've read through quite a bit of Werewolf too, oh well.
Again, thanks.
I was just homebrewing some social maneuver stuff, and didn't want to do anything that had already been done.
>>46848449
I'm pretty sure they've all got other methods of handling the Social Maneuvering system, to be fair, just not merits.
>>46848532
Well of course, anyone who can do anything social can work the doors, even if it is just using a power in a creative way to manipulate others.
But since the homebrew relates to mortals, I figure asking for merits would narrow it down to stuff I might accidentally copy.
>If your character gives up on the goal and shifts to another, any Doors currently open remain so, but assess Aspirations, Virtues, and Integrity in case of a potential increase.
>The Storyteller de-termines Doors using the highest Resolve and Composure scores in the group. She also determines three Aspirations, a Virtue, a Vice, and a relative Integrity score for the group.
What does Integrity have to do with the social maneuvering Doors system?
>>46848355
Vampire has Majesty and even The Kiss.
Beast also are automatically "Good" Impression with other supernaturals, and had a few powers dealing with stuff.
>>46848532
Oh, Merits? Vampire also has the mundane merit for Etiquette. And I think Fast-Talk? Or that might be in core.
>>46848684
>Beast also are automatically "Good" Impression with other supernaturals
Ironic then that the splat left such a bad impression.
>>46848663
If you try to get someone to act in a way below their integrity, it adds more doors.
If you perform an act that risks tour integrity while coercing someone, it opens more doors when you force them.
>>46848801
>act in a way below their integrity
u wot m8
>>46848915
He means, trying to get them to do something that would be a breaking point, you dweeb.
>>46848915
Take house mom, use social maneuvering to ask her to harm her son, this would be a breaking point, it adds more doors.
>>46848955
>>46848956
So it should actually read, re-assess breaking points?
>>46849398
No, it's just that >>46848801 did a shit job of wording it.
If you want them to do something that would be a breaking point, flat out, it's going to add more Doors(Equal to the penalty the breaking point would have). It's not going to stop being a breaking point, though, even if you convince them to do it.
>>46849436
>(Equal to the penalty the breaking point would have)
It's a flat 2.
>If the goal would be a breaking point for the character, add two Doors.
And I mean the passage in the rulebook about assessing Integrity. The actual number of Integrity dots of the subject don't seem to matter, just their breaking points, but it talks about the ST deciding on a group's collective Integrity score for social maneuvering purposes.
As a hunter is it really nessicery for a core gameplay mechanic to just lose all your morality? Its kind of a cliche like the "Fallen paladin" trope
>>46838856
>How do you handle crossovers?
Each splat is a heavily watered-down and simplified homebrew version. Certain weaknesses, powers, and themes are modified or outright removed.
>>46838856
>How do you handle crossovers?
As in players playing more than one type of Supernatural? I don't allow them.
As in encountering different Supernaturals? I try not to stress them, and even when they are important, the plot will not hinge around them.
>>46850296
>normal people pushed to the brink in the fight against the unnatural and horrific should suffer no stress-related sude effects, right?
>>46850296
Except a Fallen Paladin is someone who has taken an action that is directly against their Code, and has lost their divine powers as a result.
A Hunter is someone who has devoted themselves to killing. Sure, they specifically target monsters, but most of those monsters are going to resemble humans, so it's kind of hard to do that without feeling even the least bit disturbed.
It's a necessity because it's part of the entire selling point of the game; you're an average human, you are not above the average human's standards for what's going to unsettle you, and as hard as you try to kill every last monster out there, they keep coming, and you slide deeper into insanity.
Or, barring the greatest luck in the history of the world(exceptional success on EVERY breaking point you ever roll), you're going to feel guilty, shaken, or spooked, by the things you've done or seen. In narrative terms, you're going to have nightmares, because you're killing literal monsters, and quite a few of them look human.
>>46850465
What do you think would be more disturbing to kill- The monster that looks human but acts monstrous (an unrepentant vampire or slasher), or the monster that looks monstrous but is fundamentally human (a werewolf that is genuinely scared and remorseful)?
>>46850484
I think that varies from person to person.
Personally? I'd probably feel worse killing the humane monster, because I've never killed anything before, and at least with something that is hurting people/trying to hurt me, I could maybe reassure myself that it's in self-defense. I'd probably still lose sleep over it, though.
>>46850439
I didnt say that. But lowering your morality implies you actively did harm to innocent people. I mean Vampires arent even people. I would not feel guilty murdering 100 at a time.
>>46850465
>but most of those monsters are going to resemble humans
Humans dont grow teeth designed for the sole purpose of drinking blood or spontaneously combust in sunlight.
>>46850535
Anon, they still look like humans even if they have sharp teeth or set on fire. Hell, they could have been someone you knew. Or related to someone you knew. Vampires /were/ people, and they still /look/ like people.
>>46850565
>Having sympathy for literal monsters
>>46850535
No, but you're still going to have nightmares about the fact that a vampire, no matter how evil they act, LOOKS human, and you just fucking murdered someone.
You may think you won't feel bad, but have you ever actually killed anybody? Even a child feels horrible the first time they kill an animal while hunting with their dad, unless they're a sociopath. In that case, though, you're not playing Hunter, you're playing Slasher.
>>46850583
Yeah its going to be disturbing. But why would it lower my morality?
>>46850579
i'm sorry you're such a psychopath that you could easily kill something that looks human and had been human with zero hangups, anon
>>46850623
Its like the argument about killing zombies
>But they look human!
Bitch they are trying to EAT ME fuck em.
>>46850615
Because you killed someone and took the law into your own hands, anon. It'd be the same as killing a human murderer; you killed someone. You pulled the trigger and took another person's (yes monsters are people) life, it's going to fuck you up and it's going to last.
>>46850649
>human murderer
But they arent human.
>Monsters arent human
They are actually not. Werewolves and vampires and Promethean may as well be a completely different race. Like fucking aliens.
>>46850615
It doesn't do so automatically, remember. You get a roll; only if you fail do you lose a dot of Morality, and that's representing your character not being able to cope with/rationalize a good reason for fucking MURDERING somebody.
Even the most evil vampire is going to be a roll, unless you're using the Code thing, because you're still fucking murdering somebody.
>>46850635
You may think you're tough, but seriously. The vast majority of sane people are not going to be able to kill something and remain as mentally stable as you believe.
Just because you might be a sociopath doesn't mean everyone is.
>>46850672
i never said they were human
they're people and they look like you and me
and our fishbrains can't accept that
you're just acting like you could kill an alien creature that looks like you with zero hangups but i am pretty sure our brains can't handle that unless we have zero morality (which is exactly what this conversation is about!)
>>46850687
>MURDERING somebody.
Something*
>>46850697
>Zero Morality
So just because I can accept that vampires Have to go that must mean I am as bad as hitler.
Ok
>>46850727
It's basically 'everyone must die because they're a specific type of person', yes, that's pretty Hitler-ish.
>>46850727
>Something
They walk, talk, speak and think like humans.
Posture all you like, killing them will still fuck with your head.
>>46850672
I'm not sure if you're trolling, or just haven't read any of the books at all.
They are definitely human. They're not mortal, no, but being a walking corpse doesn't stop the corpse from being that of a human, nor does turning into a monster stop someone from being a human the rest of the time.
Prometheans, you could argue, aren't human, because their entire goal is to become human, but if you're killing one, you're DEFINITELY suffering a breaking point, because the moment they die you're going to look at the blood on your hands and realize that seemingly-monstrous being that you just killed left an entirely human corpse.
>>46850727
If you can kill something that looks and acts human with absolutely 0 hangups at all, you're definitely not a sane or moral person.
Congrats on being worse than the person you just murdered.
>>46850745
Main difference is that the jews dont secretly control the world and drink your blood...unless your from /pol/
>>46848684
>automatically "Good" Impression with other supernaturals
So everybody who's important likes the new guy intended as the crossover splat?
>>46851710
Except Demons, because they're losers
>>46848684
>Beast also are automatically "Good" Impression with other supernaturals, and had a few powers dealing with stuff.
Except Demons.
>>46850579
Is that a thumbnail or is this a scaleup.
>>46850727
Serial murder is fine at Morality 1 so long as you don't discover the means to commit mass murder of them all at once.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD9Qw0_1VWk
being a Mage in a nutshell.
Shadowrun Reddit is having AMAs for metaplot characters played by nolife freelancers.
How much you guys wanna bet one of them is AmyV? Ever since we got her fired, she works there now right?
>>46852479
she got fired from there too
>>46853003
Starting to sound like the RPG industry might be a bit too transphobic. Might have to take my business over to vidya
Alright, my loser friends want to play Vampire: The Requiem. How do I read up on this shit? They said something about 2nd Edition, I think.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbQxVT5TjvE
>>46853027
Chronicles of Darkness (nwod 2e) - Vampire core book.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_(tree)
I think I've found the location of one of the Hosts created from Forest.
>>46853011
>RPG industry might be a bit too transphobic
Heh. The vast majority of the RPG industry is very left-wing and trans-friendly, particularly Onyx Path (e.g., Vampire and Demon Developer and uber-coordinator Rose Bailey is trans). The complaints are usually that too many of the people are SJW's. That's why /wodg/ is often beset by arguments over things like pronouns.
No, AmyV got fired (although since she's a freelancer, companies really just don't want to hire her) because she has long-standing and serious personal issues and professional issues unrelated to her gender identity, and her work is not so fantastic too compensate for her flaws. Most notably, when you openly criticize or belittle certain products of a company you freelance for, to the surprise of no one, you might not be considered a reliable team player.
>>46851710
Myeah, this is one of the problems I have with the presentation of Beast. The pre-fix stereotypes were also horrible.
>>46853120
>ronouns
Are you talking about people getting uppity that "She" is used most of the time when the book gives an example? Because those people are crazy.
>>46853193
No, he's talking about the use of Xe in a sidebar and the werewolf MPreg shit
>>46853206
oh yeah that was pretty bad. no bearing on the book whatsoever.
People also argued about gender identity in Demon. But that made sense to me considering they are just Cyborgs and barely human. They wouldnt care what gender they are/referred to themselves as.
>>46853193
See, I've noticed this, but I kind of like it, because I can always imagine cute vampire girls doing the things the books describe, like Dominating one another or punching through walls.
>>46853218
little girls punching through walls are always funny.
>>46853120
she also got fired for telling rich to his face that she pirates shit/gave people books
like what kind of stupid faggot does that to their boss
>>46853206
So, werewolves are shapeshifters par excellence. Why shouldn't they be able to switch genders?
Also, why all that fuss over the side-bar? What is your problem with it?
>>46853228
And used her professional channels to complain about a book she hadn't worked on.
>>46853424
>Why shouldn't they be able to switch genders?
Because They can only turn into animals
>Fuss over a sidebar
Because it was preachy and unnecessary?
Has anyone read DaveB's story "Premeditation" from the Beast Fiction Anthology?
Among other things, I was amused by one interesting bit on p. 140, where Hal, the smug and knowledgeable mage, confidently states that every government knows about the supernatural, and some even kidnap or disappear certain members.
Was this a Hunter reference, some new canon part of the setting in 2e, or was Dave just fucking around?
>>46853459
>Because They can only turn into animals
No. They can also take human shapes.
>Because it was preachy and unnecessary?
"If non-standard pronouns disturb you, and mass murder doesn't you might have some problems." Is preachy? I think it's quite to the fucking point.
>>46853483
I thought it was super petty
>And they can turn into humans
yes if the original shapeshifter was an animal Pedantics you know what I mean.
>>46853478
it's not really a reference to anything, but a logical conclusion to draw given how the supernatural is and the many weird government things that exist, like Taskforce VALKYRIE, or Famous Gil, the Deva Corporation or the Cold War Dark Eras (Both the Americans and the Soviets have psychic agents, and this is before VASCU, too)
>>46853120
>>46853228
Wut.
>>43919354
>>43923032
>>43923224
That's not what these posts say.
>>46853483
How about we not derail a thread for the millionth time fighting over pronouns?
Whether anyone likes it or not, Onyx Path/White Wolf and their various authors have a made a point to include a number of decidedly left-wing things in all their books, and will likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Whether this is necessary, "good" and inclusive or self-righteous drivel and condescending pandering is not something that will ever be conclusively resolved of /wodg/.
>>46853483
>Is preachy? I think it's quite to the fucking point.
It's a tired old Internet culture war talking point that blatantly compares apples and oranges. And how 'on point' it is doesn't make it not preachy.
>>46853539
yeah we should just stop talking about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocDpc9Ip8J8
Hey look, a Reality Deviant!
>>46853527
I'm curious if Hunter 2e will emphasize a more pervasive and universal knowledge by governments about the supernatural.
>>46853511
i'll never understand why 4chan lets that sidebar hurt their feefees so badly
>>46853590
I don't think it will. It might be easier to infer depending on how Monica talks about TFV, since she mentioned she wants to do more discussion of the Vigil around the world, and I bet money they'll do that by talking about iterations of some of the conspiracies in other countries.
>>46853594
I would be on Infinitychan but /tg/ is slow as fuck
>>46853590
>>46853604
reminds me of a book where Frankensteins monster was an FBI agent and monster hunter
>>46853604
I'm similarly curious if Dave will mention anything about government knowledge or interaction in Mage 2e or any of the upcoming supplements.
>>46853594
It's genuinely one of the only shitty points of any WoD product with regards to social justice issues, so it gets brought up a LOT, because there's almost nothing else to discuss.
It's not that important, it's just there's almost nothing else to complain about.
>>46853637
well that and Beast
And its not like I am some raging right winger. I am mostly liberal and I fully admit that some of their earlier stuff is really insensitive.
>>46853478
A little of column A and a little of column B.
Morocco really does have secret prisons, and the government disappears people - in the 90s, it was anyone who the King thought was a risk to him, while nowadays, it does so with the support of the US, who use them for kidnapping people under the War on Terror.
Najat's dad was the kind of person to get vanished even without being a shapeshifter.
But yes, I assume everyone in the CofD setting knows about the supernatural, but only a few want to think about it and even fewer do something about it. TFV probably has equivalents all over the world.
>>46852479
>>46853003
>>46853120
>>46853228
She still freelances for Catalyst, and loves Shadowrun. She never told Rich that she pirates books. She was regarded with concern when Ex3 was leaked because she's part of "the 4chans", and someone linked Beast to get her fired (both of those things were handled terribly by OPP, regardless of whether or not AmyV was involved). She was allegedly fired for complaining about Ex3's art.
Most people are also aware that "fired" doesn't mean the same thing as a traditional job, but the term is still accurate for contract work as well. Though apparently she's still finishing up contracts, and has mentioned doing *current* work for Changeling, so she's still 'there' even if she was fired.
She was not blacklisted from the industry or anything, and she went back to working on Shadowrun books (she'd previously told those threads she dropped for personal reasons after seeing how the project was going. Partly, I think, because Catalyst was intent on doing things like >>46852479 this and killing off all the older characters). She's working on, or at this point worked on, the upcoming book for Technomancers. I'm sure she probably also does work elsewhere, since RPG writers cross pollinate.
>>46853706
She recently asked how to GM Shadowrun...
>>46845886
I think we always knew he was the dogfucker from reddit, even despite his denials.
>>46853706
If she didn't come on here to blogpost (and I'm assuming you're her) then it wouldn't be so bad. But /wodg/ has had to endure more than one of her breakdowns and pity parties and it's not cute.
>>46853659
When you say "know", do you mean they feel they've seen something that makes them scared of things that go bump in the night? Or that the average person is reasonably sure the world is secretly run by vampire wizard wolves?
>>46853770
I'd say more the vague feeling of unease and the understanding that there are things out there that shouldn't exist but do and have bad intentions toward us. But, collectively they all agree it 'can't be real' and just play it off as criminals, refugees, government entities, MRAs and other sorts of commonplace boogeymen.
>>46853721
You don't. It's terrible.
>>46853755
Honestly, those posts are so few and far between that only people like me and the gay werewolf guy and amatajakki, who live in the threads, really see them all. And there have really only been like... four in umpteen months. Though they are cringeworthy.
"You aren't an idiot who says things without knowing what's going on, that means you must be the person who's being talked about" is pretty stupid, though.
>>46853120
>No, AmyV got fired (although since she's a freelancer, companies really just don't want to hire her) because she has long-standing and serious personal issues and professional issues unrelated to her gender identit
So... just like every other tranny in existence, then? Something like 60% of them wind up offing themselves for a reason, you know.
When are geists getting the shit nerfed out of them? I am playing as a full combat rahu, my friend plays a frankenstein promethean and the GM's friend is playing some Geist thing. The fucking geist is wrecking shit all by herself and is making fun of my character ingame its starting to fucking piss me off. There is no lore justification why Sin eaters are so fucking strong.
>>46853799
Yeah, because people shame them into feeling like freaks instead of accepting them.
How would you like it if everyone told you you weren't who you see in the mirror
>>46853783
Area 51=Demons
>>46853808
Well, they are bound to Gods of Death. I'm assuming you're playing 1e, though. Honestly it's not that the Geist is super strong (I am curious what they've got, though) and more that you're super shit. Werewolves in 1e are ass.
>>46853811
While normally I'm all set to jump into that kind of argument, I find that it's just best to ignore people who don't understand the concept of psychological comorbidity.
>>46853811
Yeah it fucking sucks. But she was probably not hired because she either is bad at her job or pissed off her previous employer.
>>46839284
I'm mostly still mad at Rome Werewolf cause it beat out Book of Judges Hunter which I really wanted
>>46853811
I'd say I'm probably crazy and in need of help from a mental health professional to make me well.
>>46853511
No. I mean. They can shapeshift into other humans.
>>46853659
Thanks, Dave.
So, Is Donald Trump a manipulative Seer or a foul creature of the Lower Depths?
Is Jeremy Corbyn secretly a ghoul?
Are normal humans the worst monsters of all?
Inquiring minds want to know.
>>46853867
>They can shapeshift into other humans.
I admittedly dont play a lot of werewolf but that sounds fucking retarded.
>>46853808
The Bound don't need to be nerfed, per say. What they do need is a recalculation to make their very broad and hefty set of powers more tailored to what it is they're supposed to be doing. Instead, we have all these neat tricks and combaty-wombaty buffs for a splat whose antagonists are all pretty weak. I guess this is sort of the first case of what would later be the same sins Beast committed mechanically.
>>46853874
For some reason I can see Trump as either a member of the Hegemonic Ministry or the Ministry of the Panopticon.
>>46853874
>So, Is Donald Trump a manipulative Seer or a foul creature of the Lower Depths?
Don't be silly. The Seers are the Kikes and Freemasons. Pic related. Trump's stated that he's not a member of any of the secret societies that that the Elites belong to.
If Trump is a member of any of the Orders, he'd be a member of the Free Council. I don't think he's a Mage, though he certainly does have support from the Meme Wizards of /pol/ (who would *definitely* be members of the Free Council). He's probably some form of Sleepwalker, though; he certainly seems to know about what the Elite have been getting up to.
He might be a Changeling or some form of Fae-Touched Mortal, though; he's certainly good enough at inspiring emotion and making deals.
>>46853874
Comrade Corbyn is a Demon
>>46853877
Why should it be? It's not any different than becoming a lion, which is something I'm 90% sure they can do. They can at least become Hyena and Dingos.
>>46853861
Gender dysphoria is treated through transitioning to whatever degree the patient is comfortable with. But the social stigma surrounding mental illness is always going to make any treatment difficult.
http://pastebin.com/EuZUzGmB
>>46853874
>Are normal humans the worst monsters of all?
https://youtu.be/7rwUdL9qXjk
>>46853947
>making deals
I smell an Angel
>>46853958
What happened to when were animals just turned into animals
>>46853947
Trump is an archangel of the God Machine.
If he's elected, it will be the final piece of the occult matrix built by Machine, and it will ascend back to the Supernal.
What this means for humans, I would not dare to guess.
>>46853967
Werewolves get the ability to turn into nonwolf things by literally skinning people and animals to steal their forms.
>>46853967
>How dare the splat that is all about shapeshifting be really good at shapeshifting!
>>46854009
Thats super dumb
>>46854030
I guess your right. I shouldn't be complaining about turning into abominations in a setting rife with body horror
Has anyone tried the new skinchanger rules? Specifically, used them for skinning spirits and ghosts? How did it work?
>>46853947
>>46853975
>>46853874
Trump is Deviant.
If the Kickstarter goes well, Dave will reveal his *real* history and stats as a stretch goal.
However, Bernie Sanders is the ghoul. He claims to be 74 years old. That's a lie, he's 740. He's served the same dark master for centuries, and he only seeks the presidency under his nefarious command.
>>46854084
>Based on actual mythology and extensively explored in horror fiction
>is dumb
No, anon, it is you who was dumb all along.
>>46854111
Oh no its totally valid. I just dont like it.
>>46853967
Werewolf has never been about just shapeshifting.
"I turn into a murder monster with no self control three days out of 29" is not a very interesting game.
"I'm part hunter-spirit in the form of a wolf gifted with magical abilities by the Spirits" is a lot more interesting.
One such Gift involves shapeshifting into other people, and another involves shapeshifting into other animals. There's even one for shapeshifting into a supermurderwolf.
>>46854084
It's honestly weird that you're complaining about this.
>>46854143
>supermurderwolf.
Now thats interesting.
>>46854155
I call that for a band name.
>>46844188
>I'm not trying to turn him into a portal, the only thing I'm doing is affecting location.
I'm beginning to legitimately doubt that Mage is your favorite game given how little you understand the underlying mechanics.
Apply yourself.
Space is not about altering the spacial location of something, it's about altering space. You can use it to warp space to change the relationship between locations. To affect something directly, you need dots in whatever you're trying to affect. Look at the Apportation rote for a rundown of which conjunctional arcana accomplish what.
The thing about space is that once you alter it, things that occupy it have to move with the new fabric. You don't need Life to accomplish what you're setting out to do (teleport someone into a box) but you do need Life to target them directly, because then you're not only altering space, but a living pattern. To teleport someone into a box, just open a portal beneath them, linking to the top of the box. Gravity still exists, so they get pulled in. Then close/cancel the spell and they're just in a box.
>That's like saying I need life to set someone on fire with forces
That depends on how you're trying to set someone on fire. If you're redirecting an external heat source at them, that's fine. If you're trying to create heat inside them, then you'd need fire.
>or to throw a rock at them with matter.
You can't throw a rock at someone with matter. Throwing requires kinetic energy and that's forces. If you wanted to use matter alone to get a rock to hit someone, you'd need to cut a rock out of a location where it would naturally hit them, like a ceiling.
So just wondering, who has the greater influence of the world. The Seers of the Throne, The First Estate Invictus, or the Ivory Claw?
>>46856197
The Seers I guess.
