I'm running a cold war inspired espionage game but I don't want the enemy superpower to be communists. What are some other weird types of society to oppose democracy?
You could go to the classic.
Monarchy.
>>44444238
American military industrial complex?
>>44444238
robot Hitler?
>>44444238
Anarchists.
>>44444315
>anarchistic society
How does that work?
>>44444238
Theocracy
>>44444298
Eisenhower tried to warn us, but we didn't listen ;_;
>>44444323
It doesn't
>>44444238
Okay, you're running in the Cold War, but don't want the bad guys to be communists? There's really only one solution then...
The GOOD GUYS are the communists!
Think about it: How many games, movies, books, radio plays and whatever in the Cold War have ever actually acknowledged the legitimacy of the other's narrative? Be bold, strike a blow for the truth! Strike a blow for the people! Strike a blow for the REVOLUTION!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs
>>44444339
>Theocracy
Definitely underused. I'd love to read about how they worked in practice.
>>44444238
Real-communism-that-never-happened-IRL.
>>44444238
Just make the party communists
>>44444323
Like communism but without a totalitarian leader.
>>44444392
"communism has never been tried guys really just give it a chance"
>>44444238
Democracy that is slightly different than the first democracy.
>>44444383
Iran and Saudi Araba to some extent
>>44444380Too bad that the game is dead
http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/44425601/islamic-state#bottom
Some of the stuff on here is good
>>44444238
CIA
>>44444614
Bane?
>>44444238
>Cold War with no Commies
The fuck outta here OP.
>>44444238aliens
>>44444323
There's about 7 of you. You hide, steal, fight when you can, and run when you can't. Eventually your cohorts buy in for hot showers, family life and hatchbacks. You lose and it sucks.
>>44444238
Communism is only economic.
What you are looking for is autocracy.
As for your question: Nationalsocialism or Facism, or be realistic and make it Oligarchy vs. Oligarchy.
>>44444411
Which would be sane, too bad the cold war propaganda still works today.
Fascism?
>>44444339
No modern military can afford to NOT have a permanent armament industry, wars start and end too quickly to do otherwise any longer. Welcome to the nuclear age.
>>44444399
Nah that is the dieal form of coomunism. Democratic communism.
Anarchism is reorganization into regional councils.
So each village is kinda it's own nation.
Juntas. Military dictatorships.
A snowcrash-style anarchocapitalist society
>>44444238
Jews
Radical enviromentalistsAKA Elves
>>44444238
Theocracy of the Great Old Ones?As the good guys?
>>44444238
YOU ARE BRAVE SOLDIER OF MOTHER LAND
MOTHERLAND IS UNDER ATTACK
UNDER ATTACK BY CAPITALIST NAZI JEW PIG DOGS IN WASHINGTON BERLIN PARIS TOKYO LONDON
ARE YOU DIALECTIC ENOUGH OF A PROLE TO SAVE COMRADE BREZHNEV?
>>44444380
THIS THIS THIS
Go read Inside Soviet Military Intelligence by Viktor Suvorov. He was a GRU defector. The GRU was like a mini-KGB answerable to the Soviet Army. Many of the famous "kgb" operations were really GRU.
Suvorov wrote several other books but that one'll get you started. He was an army officer cherry-picked to work for the GRU. He was an officer in spetsnaz, then moved to foreign intelligence. In his semi-autobiographical novel, he explains that he defected when he realized that he'd be soon sent back to Russia on suspicion of disloyalty, and that this prompted him to defect.
It reads like an RPG sourcebook-- easy and fun to read, opinionated, relentlessly autistically factual, and dripping with history and plot hooks.
>>44444238
fighting against some form of feudal monarchy or caste system based society
>>44444238
Canada
>>44445532
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44bT3S3Rx5I
>>44444411
we need to give the rich people all the money or they wont give us jobs
>>44445319
Seconded, though I should point out that there are questions about how factual anything "Suvorov" wrote is. Doesn't matter for your purposes, because it's all awesome. His "Spetsnaz" might help, too.
The other great option, for a Cold War game, is non-aligned nations. Your players could fight to prop up the tottering corpse of imperialism practically anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere! Liberation theology! Forced disappearances! Meddling by the superpowers! Narcoterrorism! Buying entire governments! Perfect for murderhobo PCs, because they're already going to end up burning down villages and torturing peasants for no reason.
>>44444720
>Thank god you didn't call it selling out
We always buy in, in the end.
>>44444775
>Ukrainian famine
Sure was a lot of propaganda that killed those people...
>>44445455
>INPAK v. SOVWAR
Oooh, damn nigga. We eschaton now?
>>44445319
Suvorov was a hack and often full of shit
>>44446190
Yes, his Spetsnaz book is mostly bullshit
>>44444238
It doesn't matter. What matters is the fact that they're evil, oppose all that is good and moral, and want nothing more than to destroy your society, which is the greatest and most benevolent nation to ever exist. So you gotta double down and find that superweapon, counter-intelligence program, or massive invasion force just waiting to destroy your way of life because it has to exist or your superiors will think you've turned traitor.
>>44444238
Hard meritocracy.
>>44444350
It works absolutely fine.
Then it gets stomped on by Lenin.
>>44446338
>Related
>>44446732
>implying you had been talking about the economic merits of communism
Communism is moribund, tovarische.
>>44446415
Doesn't mean it's not a good read.
>>44445532
Confederate States of America is an alternate history documentary that actually makes this very viable.
Check it out.
>>44446803
>implying I was the anon you were talking to
The holodomor has no relevance to this conversation. Communism is an economic system that has nothing to do with Stalin's decisions. Hell, according to Communism, Communism should not be tried yet anyway.
>>44446844
>implying I am the same anon.
Blame capitalism for all the modern woes, and the woes of the Communist Bloc will be placed entirely on your favorite ideology. Seems fair, eh comrade?
>>44444238
>What are some other weird types of society to oppose democracy?
Capitalism.
>>44446932
Nope. See, they were down to capitalism too.
>>44446988
>>44446844
>communism dindu nuffin
It's a bunch of pseudo-egalitarian horse shit that's been used to prop up regimes since the 1700s. One has to ask, why is it anytime communists try shit tons of people get murdered.
Maybe the problem isn't the people, plenty have tried. Maybe it's something else.
>>44446988
>things I like can't have flaws, they're the best
>things I dislike are responsible for all bad things, like, ever
The only diehard communists and pinkos I ever see are emotionally stunted manchildren, who whine and FEEL about the world but never realize the constraints reality places upon mankind. If only we did what they FEEL would be best! Pathetically whinging, economically illiterate, historically clueless, utopian losers, the lot of you.
In response to OP's question, why not go for SJWs or their ideological neighbors, fascists?
>>44447133
Nice image macro, totally disproved the fact that communists are all manchildren with your sick name-calling! Faggot.
>>44447133
What is that? What does it mean?
I am from reddit, is that some meme here.
>>44447133
>heavily anti-semitic
>pro-gommunist
Jesus, national socialists and communists need to seriously fuck off. There is a good reason the free-world fought these type of cunts at every turn. The only thing they understand is a bullet to the noodle.
>>44447120
I do not think you understand what socialism is about, friend. Unlike capitalism, it does not rely on fairy-tale fee-fees to make itself seem appealing.
>>44447117
Why is it that every time capitalists try something everyone gets murdered. I mean, look at the Native Americans, or the Nazi Germans, or the Opium Wars.
>>44447198
Only one of those has anything to do with capitalism. But since you've devolved to using the word fee-fees, I'm gonna call troll or retard and move on.
>>44447156
I'm not even communist, I just know about politics.
>>44447191
If you think it's anything but making fun of the retards that spout it, you are deep in retardation territory.
>free world
Kek.
>>44447117
We could be doing this forever.
>sweatshops
>starvation crisis in Africa due to singe-crop economies
>refugee crisis
>America's shadow war
If you want to blame communism for failures of states that a lot of them don't even support, you'll have to deal with the same shit.
>>44447229
>only one of those has anything to do with capitalism
Nonsense! Don't you see, anon? All of them were perpetrated by capitalist states! Therefore it obviously IS capitalist.
>talking about what FEELS the best is fine, fee-fees is not
Sure, anon. No hugboxes here.
>>44444238
Republicans.
>>44447198
>Native Americans
Constant warfare and cannibalism cannot be pushed under the rug to promote your ideals of the noble savage. As a Native American, we deserved it. I like having tylenol and a warm house.
>Nazi
You mean National SOCIALIST German Workers Party? Oh wait.
>Opium Wars
So, you want a strong China?
>>44447232
You berate the system because you are free to, you know politics because you had been allowed to read the histories from any perspective you choose.
Berate the Chinese ruling party from within their borders, and then we will talk about the free-world.
>>44447255
Too obvious, be more subtle next time.
>>44447254
>Pinochet
>Anything less than a hero for killing communist terrorists and pinko journalists.
No traction here buddy.
>>44447301
>adios, mi general
i cry evrytiem
>>44447279
>Constant warfare and cannibalism cannot be pushed under the rug to promote your ideals of the noble savage. As a Native American, we deserved it. I like having tylenol and a warm house.
Deserving something has nothing to do with it.
>You mean National SOCIALIST German Workers Party? Oh wait.
You mean DEMOCRATIC people's republic of North Korea? Oh wait.
>So you want strong China
You didn't even try to respond to this one.
>>44447290
>he thinks disagreement is bait
I'm pointing out how retarded you are for thinking anything done by a nominally communist state makes communism automatically "bad".
>>44447301
Stalin was good for destroying the kulaks, right?
>>44447198
>unlike capitalism it does not rely on fairy-tale fee-fees to make itself seem appealing
You're living in a place made rich in material wealth by the practice of capitalist ideas. Every place socialism has touched economic growth has shriveled and reversed, or advanced in bursts along favored industries but remained sluggishly behind all other systems.
YOUR system requires make believe. The benefits of capitalism - and its trade offs - are to be seen all around you. You're using a benefit of capitalism right now.
>>44447232
>I just know about politics
Then you'd know every socialist, "socialist," and communist state to ever exist has been shit. The economy of the Soviet bloc and of Eastern Europe is only starting to recover from the shambles it was in before - at least they don't have shortages and bread lines anymore.
You know nothing of politics if you think socialism is good and you look at Western European welfare states - not socialist states - to justify it.
>>44447254
>that image
Hi /leftypol/.
>sweatshops
>I don't want poor farmers to start working in industry to enrich themselves more than subsistence level farming would give them so I'll call the place they work a slurr
>starvation crisis in Africa
>muh poor Africa is a country not a continent oppressed peoples abloo bloo
>what is Nigeria, South Africa, Ethiopia, and other regional successes
>refugee crisis
>EU being retarded and thinking it'd be racist to enforce their own laws
>America's shadow war
>done at the behest of an economic system, apparently, even though war is terrible for business
>MY FEELINGS ABOUT THINGS I AM UNINFORMED ABOUT: the post
You're a retard, anon, no way around it.
>>44447301
>>44447336
>Pinochet shitposting during summer
Why am I not surprised?
>>44444238
>don't want the enemy to be communists
Why the fuck not?
>>44447389
>summer
Incoming Aussies = shitposter comment.
>>44447389
He's the go-to bad guy for /leftypol/ and their ilk.
Really, I would take a single dictator over a Communist party oligarchy. At least when the dictator dies it's all over - when the premier dies, the party goes on and on and on.
>>44447340
>Deserving something has nothing to do with it.
Only if your a moral relativist.
>You mean DEMOCRATIC people's republic of North Korea? Oh wait.
Socialism and communism was mentioned versus Capitalism. Democracy, as you pointed out, does not a free-world make. I don't defend democracy.
>China
Why bother? They have only recently considered themselves a nation in the Westphalian treaty sense.
>Stalin was good for destroying the kulaks, right?
Went right for the absurd, eh?
>>44447389
>summer in the southern hemisphere
Nope, nice and cold up here in the land of the free. Just another militant brown man with a lot of guns.
>>44447416
When you bomb leftist television stations and ghost foreign commie journalists, you aren't a dictator, your a goddamned war hero.
>>44447378
>leftypol
It was always /leftypol/, comrade.
>You're living in a place made rich in material wealth by the practice of capitalist ideas.
Nope.
>Every place socialism has touched economic growth has shriveled and reversed, or advanced in bursts along favored industries but remained sluggishly behind all other systems.
Just like capitalism. And, anon, economic growth is meaningless if you aren't taking home the money you make.
>NO ITS U I SWEAR
Go to India, tell me about the benefits of capitalism. Just because you're a spoiled baby doesn't mean the rest of the world is.
>Then you'd know every socialist, "socialist," and communist state to ever exist has been shit
Makhno, motherfucker. You even think the USSR is meaningful.
>I don't want poor farmers to start working in industry to enrich themselves more than subsistence level farming would give them so I'll call the place they work a slurr
They aren't enriching themselves, they're enriching their bosses. They make no money.
Nigeria is only a success to the rich. It is shit to the many, many poor.
He's talking about what caused the refugee crisis you idiot.
War is great for business. Why the shit do you think it's done?
But sure, your failed economic system is great. I bet you just love having your boss take away your money for you, just so he can use it himself.
>>44447416
>you are now aware that capitalists can be oligarchical too
Or are you telling me that China is communist?
>>44447478
>Only if your a moral relativist.
Morals are spooks, anon. Hence why deserving something has nothing to do with it.
>Socialism and communism was mentioned versus Capitalism. Democracy, as you pointed out, does not a free-world make. I don't defend democracy.
Welp, you actually think NK is democratic. I *hope* you're only saying that because you're terrified that if you admit you've lost the argument you'll lose some e-peen or something.
The fuck does China's legal status as a sovereign nation have to do with this.
>Went right for the absurd, eh?
Yes. That was the point. I thought that was obvious.
>land of the free
This is what conservicucks really believe.
>>44447378
>strawman-ing this hard
I criticized you for blaming all tragedies in the Eastern Bloc on Socialism - and correctly guessed that you will not blame very similar tragedies while they happen under capitalism.
>Sweatshops are great, never mind the suicide nets, fire hazard or child labour
>Well starvation isn't happening in ALL of Africa so it doesn't count
>War is costly so obviously it can't be done for economic reasons, what is geopolitics lol
>If the crisis is happening outside of Europe it's not a crisis
Whatever you say man.
>>44444323
Anarchy isn't anomie.
>>44446190
>>44446415
There are still lots of Russians who hate him over his defection, far more than Gordievsky, Mitrokhin, and other higher-profile defectors. A big part of this is that Suvorov (real name Rezun) is a pro-Ukrainian activist.
Further, as a historian, he's written that Stalin had secret plans to invade Nazi Germany in 1942 or 1943 (almost certainly true) and that Nazi spies discovered this (probably false IMO) and that barbarossa was a way to forestall this.
His books were endorsed by a noted British general and intelligence expert. Hackett did note that while the factual content checked out, that he didn't always agree with Suvorov's opinions and interpretations.
Suvorov's books were mostly attacked by left-wing academics. I've read through those old reviews, and with the fall of the Soviet Union, we now can confirm Suvorov correct and the reviewers wrong on most of those points.
To this day, I hear plenty of attacks on Suvorov, especially from Russian nationalists. But (leaving his history work aside) his books on the Soviet Army, GRU, and Spetsnaz have pretty much been borne out. They're also fantastic as RPG supplements even if you decide that they're wrong.
>>44447478
>harming innocents
>ever good
I just said he was less shit than the alternative.
>>44447484
Where do you think economic growth goes, anon, if not to people in the community? It's not all fat-cat bankers soaking up the gains while normal people go hungry.
>India
You know nothing about India. They held off on market reform and subsidized "traditional" industry for decades. Of course they're behind the West. You know nothing - you're the spoiled brat here.
>you even think the USSR is meaningful
It's not? Tell that to the millions of people who lived in it and were enslaved by it. Tell that to my friends' families who lived in fear. The USSR and its reflection on communism is very, very meaningful. You spoiled fucking brat.
>they make no money
Compared to subsistence farming in rural China, where they make negative money, yes. THINGS AREN'T PERFECT WAAAH. Grow up, they're happy to have the opportunities they have, and they live better than their ancestors.
>capitalism caused the refugee crisis
Yeah, it's about as culpable as global warming is for ISIS.
>war is great for business
For arms dealers, not for the 99% of everyone else.
>failed economic system
>living in the richest societies in history, with the most leisure time, most disposable income, most purchasing power, etc, ever recorded
If this is failure, we're doing awfully fucking well. You're an idiot when you try to say "capitalism has failed," because the benefits are very, very clear.
>your boss take money from you
>muh profit = theft
Profit is for keeping a business afloat and to allow it to survive. If you went hand-to-mouth as a farmer, you'd die and be a shit farmer. If you lived hand-to-mouth in any business you get the same shit, then the boss has to fire all his workers or they have to fire themselves from their co-op. You are economically illiterate, and your entire approach to reality is FEELS > REALS.
And I never said China was communist, you retard.
>>44444238
Circle Trigonists - http://www.alternatewars.com/WW3/Trigons/Trigons.htm
A made-up European fascist organisation the US Army used in war games to simulate the Soviet invasion of Europe. The thing that most people remember is that they spoke Esperanto, but the fiction behind their existence was so vague that you could potentially make up anything.
>>44444411
It has been tried. It just didn't work
>>44447191
>>44446844
Even if OP is a marxist, this shouldn't be an obstacle to running a game like this. If you're a marxist and believe that the Soviets were No True Communists anyway, then who cares if you make them look bad? In fact, that just makes them worse, right? Not only are these murderous totalitarian bastards that oppressed their people and killed tens of millions, but they ruined the good name of Communism by falsely claiming to follow it. And by undermining left-wing movements in the West.
Once you've made the jump that the USSR isn't real communism, then why bother trying to argue that the purges never happened or that the system wasn't a miserable failure?
That's why I think that this is just a good campaign concept, regardless of what your personal political views are. Obviously, a conservative or libertarian can play this as a straight up villains game where you're on the evil side. But socialists can do it too, if they genuinely believed that the USSR wasn't really marxist. And in a way, it makes for a more morally complex game if you're intelligence officers trapped between your home nation, a country with an ideology you believe in but which the Party has betrayed on one hand, and on the other, the evil capitalist West where despite being superficially wealthy is evil and unjust in its foundations.
cont in a moment with why I think it works AS A ROLEPLAYING IDEA.
>>44447553
>implying this was straw-manning
Babby's first debate, calling out the name of fallacy has awarded you 15 points, but I must reduce your score by double that for its incorrect usage.
>sweatshops are great
Never said that, THAT is a straw man. I said it was better than their previous alternatives.
>starvation isn't happening in ALL of Africa
You're the one who did the oh-so-common "Africa = monolithic" tract that spoiled Westerners always use.
>implying geopolitics are the same as business
Politicians and businessmen are often at odds.
>if the crisis is happening outside of Europe it's not a crisis
Another strawman. Please, anon, pick up a book on economics, history, or something for fuck's sake. Your FEELINGS that you picked up in a public school education don't justify a bloody revolution because of your deliberate unwillingness to learn about why things are the way they are rather than just wash your hands of that responsibility and declare it all evil.
>>44444238
What about evil transhumanists? Underused AF.
>>44447615
>Where do you think economic growth goes, anon, if not to people in the community? It's not all fat-cat bankers soaking up the gains while normal people go hungry.
That's clearly not what capitalism is about though. It's merely a side-effect on not being able to paw all the money.
>>44447533
>morals are spooks
>deserving something has nothing to do with it
And you call other people spoiled first-worlders?
>Think NK is democratic
They have elections. No worse than the sham elections anywhere else. What is the difference between selecting from preferati vs. selecting to vote for one man or not vote at all?
>China's legal status
Everything. A people divided are easily manipulated by outside forces.
>Absurdity
Needless to say, we are talking shop on 4chan.
>Conservicuck
Nope. Nice try though. Label me however you wish in your attempt to negate me, but I am not something so easily banished.
Freedom from responsibility or duty was never a promise made to you.
>>44447615
"Innocents" is just a label, a construct. Sometimes the innocents aren't as pure as you could imagine.
>>44447703
So much this. You wanna talk about a slippery slope ideology, neither Capitalism or Communism have anything on this.
>>44447615
>It's not all fat-cat bankers soaking up the gains while normal people go hungry.
"Thank you sir, thank you for letting me work for you!" is not what I would call "going to the community".
>You know nothing about India. They held off on market reform and subsidized "traditional" industry for decades. Of course they're behind the West. You know nothing - you're the spoiled brat here.
But that has nothing to do with socialism, anon. If you left your hugbox once in a while, maybe you'd know that.
>didn't even address Makhno
Of course you didn't.
>Compared to subsistence farming in rural China, where they make negative money, yes. THINGS AREN'T PERFECT WAAAH. Grow up, they're happy to have the opportunities they have,
I would rather be shot in the head than burned alive. That doesn't mean being shot in the head is a good outcome.
>and they live better than their ancestors.
They have much shorter lives than their ancestors. But I forgot that facts are not your strong suit.
>Yeah, it's about as culpable as global warming is for ISIS.
>M-muh culture! Muh genetics!
>For arms dealers, not for the 99% of everyone else.
Then why do people do it? Out of the goodness of their hearts? That's just naive, anon.
>living in the richest societies in history,
Romans were richer.
>with the most leisure time,
One of the least, actually.
Profit isn't theft you retard. Profiting over others is theft.
>>44447648
Kek.
>>44447615
>>harming innocents
>>ever good
Sparta city-state, culling of the unfit newborns.
Just joining this thread, but...
>>44447533
Your argument seems like all snark and no substance. You talk about him losing the argument but in my opinion you're pretty much forfeiting by resorting to "hurrrr conservicucks". Also, you talk about morals being intangible and deserving things have nothing to do with getting them; yet you guys are discussing politics, and politics are inherently opinion-driven, so if I'm in charge and my opinion is you don't deserve something, deserving has everything to do with it.
There's no objective judge of merits in politics. It's just a matter of one sides opinion out-leveraging the other sides opinion.
And when one side resorts to "hurrrrr conservicucks" like you're doing, it means they've lost all their leverage.
>>44447615
Funny you're talking about global warming and don't link it to anything else in your post.
>>44444238
Lack of communists suggests lack of socialist revolution, or it suggests that this revolution was overwhelmed by goverments/kigs/w.e. You must ask yourself one very important question. Does socialism ever existed in your world? If it does, then you should pick monarchy, if doesnt, go nuts, because world without red-like revolution would be totally different
>>44447703
Fucking this. How cool would that be, if an evil army of transhumanist zealots decided that the world had to be "forced to evolve" and then began rounding people up for it.
>>44447730
>it's merely a side-effect of not being able to paw all the money
You do realize profits are marginal in most industries (anywhere from 10-20% more than what was originally spent if a place is doing very well), and that they are not the norm?
>>44447731
>innocents is a construct
That's true, but I don't believe in killing people who aren't going to use force against me or others in some way when doing something. If people wanted to build their own commune and it was entirely voluntary, then why not let them is my thinking.
>>44447755
It was a jab at Western leaders who said a drought caused by global warming created ISIS, as if ISIS doesn't have beliefs and convictions they fight for and are so retarded that when lakes dry up they need to kill people for water or something.
>>44447752
You shouldn't just jump into a thread, anon, or you'd make a post like that. I didn't jump to hurrr conservicucks. You'd know this if you bothered to read the thread.
>>44447796
>It was a jab at Western leaders who said a drought caused by global warming created ISIS, as if ISIS doesn't have beliefs and convictions they fight for and are so retarded that when lakes dry up they need to kill people for water or something.
That's actually not all that retarded. People generally aren't too keen on killing their fellows when everything is fine. Plus, you know how the laws against leaded gasoline was the one major thing that... led to the major crime drop in the US? Our environment has an effect on us, intrinsically. I mean, they're probably wrong on that hypothesis, but it's less retarded than you think.
>>44447796
>If people wanted to build their own commune and it was entirely voluntary, then why not let them is my thinking.
Misguided individuals left unchecked might cause serious harm to the society even when they have no ill intentions.
>>44447679
Ok so I just explained why-- even if you're a communist yourself, this is a great idea for a roleplaying game. Next, some background, then my point:
The Soviet Union died suddenly, abruptly. It was chaos. You can still find lots of old Soviet junk on ebay-- Barq's root beer ran a promotion in the early 90's where they would send you genuine stuff: military uniforms, medals, etc.
The KGB fired lots of its intelligence officers, and some merely vanished. Through the 1990's, a bunch of soviet spy cases were suddenly solved. Including some very high-ranking soviet agents.
We finally found out why in the early 2000's. Vasili Mitrokhin was the KGB's archivist. He'd been in charge of moving the KGB archives from Dzerzhinsky Square to the newer KGB building on the ring road from the late 1970's to the mid 1980's. Along the way, he'd secretly copied thousands and thousands of KGB files. With the soviet union in turmoil, he defected to Britain (most KGB and GRU officers defect to Britain rather than the USA, incidentally). And brought his files.
Shortly after the Russians figured out what was going on, he co-wrote a history of the KGB with Cambridge historian Christopher Andrews. He names names, provides codenames, details, what the KGB's internal assessments of their agents were. A lot is still classified.
Oleg Gordievsky was the rezident of the London rezidentura of the KGB. That's the equivalent of a CIA station chief-- the chief KGB officer in Britain. He was also working for MI-6. After being recalled to Moscow in 1984 for trial and execution, he staged a daring escape and was smuggled across the border in the trunk of a car. He ALSO co-wrote a book with Christopher Andrews.
There are others, but you get the point. These guys were the best in the world, but with the failure of communism, lots started to publish their memoirs. We know a LOT about how Soviet intelligence agencies worked-- stuff we didn't know during the cold war.
>>44447745
You do realize profits are generally marginal, and not at all guaranteed, right? They go to expand production of things that sell, and if there is a loss then less of that thing is made to sell. The community is enriched because it makes more of what it is willing to pay for (generating profits) and less of what it is not willing to pay for (causing loss). This allows scarce resources, such as water, steel, etc, with limited amounts available to us at any given time, to be allocated to where a community/society most wants them.
Profits and losses are more than people being meanies, you idiot.
And my India example wasn't about socialism, it was to say that they didn't adopt a market economy in most respect until recently (last few decades). Don't put words in my mouth, it makes you look even more retarded than being an unrepentant communist does.
>implying I even know about Makhno
I've got better things to do than read up on subjects ideologues of failed systems masturbate to.
>I would rather be shot than buried alive
False equivalence. This is about how they make their livelihood, where marginally better outcomes are still better outcomes.
>shorter lives, in a time of improved medicine and hygiene
That's a damned lie and you know it. Then again, you're used to lying as a communist.
>m-muh culture, muh genetics
Strawmaning me as a stormfag? Sorry to disappoint you, I'm just upset that the most powerful government in Europe is arbitrary in how it enforces it laws and doesn't think of the consequences.
>why do people do bad things like war
Jeez, anon, I'll let you figure that one out. What I was saying is that most people involved in a war lose out.
>unironically saying the Romans were richer
I bet you live in an air-conditioned home, own a car or have access to one, and have electricity, internet, telephones, tons of books, electronics, etc.
Really, you're contradictory and interpret everything in favor of your chosen ideology.
>>44447703
Hasn't happened yet, different technological environment, and it's done to death. Just name a major recurring villain on Doctor Who that ISN'T some brand of transhumanist.
>>44447640
This thread seems to be completely filled with muh gommunism/gapitalism shitposting, but if anyone is still interested, here's the US field manual on the glorious Trigonist regime.Fiku vian patrinon rapide, familio.
>>44447697
>your feelings!
>YOUR FEELINGS!
I've never once mentioned my feelings on any subject. Again, please stop making out a strawman of some college hippie with a Che t-shirt - I've never even said I want a revolution, and never called capitalism "evil".
I'm arguing that you're sidestepping the issue of blaming capitalist states for the exact same kind of "humanitarian disasters" liberals blame the Soviet Union for.
And you're doing exactly that. I want an argument, any argument - for why these events are not related to capitalism. And you're argument is literally "read a book" - fine, explain to me then what I'll find there? Maybe you could recommend me a personal favourite?
Are you denying that mass refugee camps exist? Are you claiming that economic and political interests are related?
I mean, if you don't think sweatshops are a problem - should you really criticize the industrialization process in the Soivet Union?
>>44447748
>>44447745
This has to be bait, but I will take it
>That has nothing to do with socialism
That is a textbook socialist policy, even if the system isn't entirely socialist. It's the government directly influencing and controlling the market
>M-muh culture! Muh genetics!
U wot m8?
>>44444238
The arch-capitalist economy on the planet created the internet, and once the threat of mass annihilation for which it was developed as a counter measure had passed, they gave it to the rest of the world so that other countries could become economic and cultural participants of the new century.
A guy on the internet trying to argue against the merits of capitalism is irony in the absurd, like ISIS recruiting in a strip club.
The rest of us happy capitalists are living like capitalists. You unhappy socialists are living like capitalists as well. So if living like a socialist would make you happy, go do it.
Otherwise, shut the fuck up because you just sound like a bunch of whiny twats.
>>44447745
>Romans were richer
Didn't knew that the Romans had electricity, running water, heating, air conditioning, toilet paper, TV, Internet or so much food that obesity is a much bigger problem than starvation
>>44447806
>I didn't jump to hurrr conservicucks.
Nope, you got triggered by the political slogan "land of the free". You can argue that till the cows come home, but what you cannot argue is that this is still the land of opportunity.
Unless you buried yourself in debt and cant find a job, then its the land of the McWage slave.
>>44447974
You are conflating ideals with the reality on the ground. Sweatshops suck, but so is starving because your meager rice crap failed one season, or the local honcho decides he doesn't like you because you unintentionally cock blocked him at the village festival.
Factory jobs are a small improvement, and when China is no longer competitive due to labor costs those jobs will move to somewhere else, as they did here. The life of the Chinese peasant is improving, it truly is. Yes, ideally it would happen with less suicide nets and rampant consumerism, but that isn't happening anytime soon.
Your ideals aren't feeding the east China seaboard.
>>44447885
It was never proven like the leaded gasoline was proven - scientifically - that it was the cause for ISIS. ISIS has its roots in the destabilization of Iraq over a decade before the drought, a drought which was absolutely normal for that region. They were just talking out of their ass, but you are right that there's a kernel of truth to it - I just don't think they've proven that they're right in any way, they just wanted a shocking headline.
>>44447922
True, but that's why we have plenty of laws against that sort of stuff.
>>44447974
You have nothing go on on the subject of sweatshops, African nations, geopolitics, and crises outside of your gut reaction. You don't know what a sweatshop is, what life was like before for the people, what opportunities they have/had, etc, etc. You just have your own perspective, and none of the details from people there, or from studies or history.
I once thought they were bad, but after reading a lot more about them I've come to realize they are bad, yes, but better than the alternatives to many people. Rural Chinese want to flock to sweatshops in the cities so bad that China has to have a dual citizenship system, where the rural Chinese are kept out of the cities so they don't overcrowd them because they're practically tearing down the gates to get in.
I never said capitalism is flawless, but humans are flawed too. Democracy is flawed as well, but as the age-old joke goes "it is the worst system yet tried, except all the others." That's the same with capitalism, a system which was never promulgated by one person and whose name actually comes from people who disparaged it and hated it. Capitalism is about the free exchange, not coerced by force, of goods and services. So to say governments acting on behalf of capitalism are invading other countries - using force to make them stuff they normally wouldn't do - is silly. It happens, but it's not because of capitalism, it's more in spite of it.
>>44447936
OK now my point. If the /pol/tards on the left and the right could settle down, they might learn something.
That back and forth is part of why this game is feasible. The Cold War was an ideological argument that continues to this day. You can argue that it's been definitively won by a side, but the socialists don't think so, certainly not in countries that are sliding into their own experiments in socialism even 20 years after its collapse. ALL those same arguments could have been made, even more convincingly, in the 1950's, 60's, 70's, or 80's. Right up until the russians and eastern europeans revolted there were people claiming that they were prosperous and happy, and that anything else is evil capitalist propaganda. He'll they're saying it NOW. Why fight it?
Why play Soviets? Partly because it's fun to play a foreign culture. But mostly by necessity. Suvorov, Gordievsky, Mitrokhin, and countless others have given us a very, very detailed picture of how the KGB and GRU were organized and operate on a day to day basis. Nobody's come forward with that kind of information about China, the UK, or the USA.
As a soviet agent, you can stick the players into 20th century europe or the USA. Fun, flavorful settings with lots of pop cultural references. And you're sticking them in as outsiders, so you can use your descriptions to highlight its strangeness to a Russian. It means you can refer sparingly to events and characters back home, so world-building and roleplaying won't overwhelm you or your players. You can have plots that connect to real history that the players will recognize.
Finally, the PLAYERS will know their target countries very well, just as a real intelligence officer would have been briefed.
>>44448119
>Unless you buried yourself in debt and cant find a job, then its the land of the McWage slave.
Don't you know? Libtards aren't responsible for getting themselves into debt; it's the fault of the "I've got mine, Jack" capitalist economy.
What if we didn't unbendingly apply a single ideology, and instead applied certain ideas from various ideologies when they were needed and useful?
>>44447968
Thanks anon. It's a great link. My only issue is that the Cold War was an intelligence war, and not having read it yet I'm not sure we'd see much on espionage in an Army FM.
I agree that if we ignore the /pol/crap, this is a good RPG question.
That's why I recommend suvorov. The others are dry historical texts with mountains of footnotes. Suvorov's books are short, fun reads that are rich in autistic detail about how it works: the org chart, policies and procedures, what a career in intelligence looks like, and what it FEELS like to be an intelligence officer.
For convenience and so you can separate all the political shitposting, here's my posts.
>>44445319
>>44447576
>>44447679
>>44447936
>>44448132
>>44447974
Continuing my autism, I'd say you need to be comfortable with accepting you do not know everything there is to know about everything first. A wise man once said, "All I know is that I know nothing." If you think you've got all the facts you need, you won't bother searching for more. Never accept weak assertions or belief things without evidence - that's when we get Trump believing Chinese trade hurts Americans, when poor Americans get 69% increased purchasing power compared to the middle class' 23% increase thanks to foreign trade with countries like (and including) China.
I'd say "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlit is really good (http://fee.org/files/doclib/20121116_economicsinonelesson.pdf), and Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics is superb. Check out his Economic Facts and Fallacies from the library, and you'll learn more about econ in an afternoon than in a month in a classroom. Frederic Bastiat is also a great writer on this, and he wrote in pamphlet form, so they're bite sized and great to read. I'd recommend The Law and the Broken Window fallacy, perhaps the best-known fallacy to date. (http://oll.libertyfund.org/people/frederic-bastiat)
Keep in mind that you may not have all the facts on issues, and some things may not even be visible - such as when a city builds a sports stadium for a few million dollars, but that few million could easily have been used by people in the city to improve their own lives rather than built a money sink like a sports stadium is.
To end, I'd say yes, bad things exist, and they will continue to exist so long as people do because we're not that great, really. But things are vastly improving, and that's something, because we could actually be going nowhere like they were in the Soviet economy. The key is to keep your eye on both what is seen and what is unseen or unknown. It doesn't mean you need to approve of poverty to accept the world the way it is, but you can accept that there are ways that make things better
>>44448170
This is what really aggravates me; they think the debt is an investment which entitles them to a return. Had they not been failed by their parents they would have known that debt is not an asset. Acquiring secured debt that cannot be removed through Federal Bankruptcy is a plebeian tier mistake.
Foreigners come to this great nation, and understanding that debt is not an asset, accrue actual wealth and begin to prosper. They open up hajji shops, bodegas, shoe stores and tire shops. They bust ass and save, living below their means, and move up.
Having a smartphone is not living below your means. Complaining on social media is not activism. Debt is not an asset.
When they can understand those things, they will have grown up.
>>44447576
And his Stalin research is garbage. "Inside" is the only remotely accurate book he ever wrote
>>44448232
You're right - the vast majority of the manual is on uniform designs, and army tactics, but there's some good stuff at the beginning about the 'history' of the regime and its place in politics, which was that of a buffer state between the US and the USSR
To make it relevant to Army training exercises, there's some absolutely batshit insane ideas on how the Trigonists invaded the US about 3 different times in the 50's; if I were designing a setting, I'd ignore that completely, and have the Trigonists function like a fascist version of Finland during the Cold War - a buffer between East and West, walking a thin line to appease both powers while simultaneously trying to expand their power.Really, the only reason I like the idea of the Trigonists so much is Esperanto; oh, for a world that speaks one language!
I'll have to check out Suvorov; I've been reading a bunch of books on modern Russia and Putinism while not really knowing the history past the basics - it'd be interesting to check it out.
>>44448054
Socialism has never argued that capitalism is bad because of what is produces, but rather due to how the wealth is distributed. Jesus.
>>44448121
>Capitalism is about the free exchange, not coerced by force, of goods and services.
Except it's not. Your mixing it up with it's political legitimisation, liberalism.
Capitalism is (very simplified) when when someone owns the means of production, separate from the workers who work it, selling the produce at a higher rate than the cost to produce it and paying these workers a wage. This excess is called capital.
You could argue that this system, which is based on profit - not at it's core any ideological dedication to free trade or liberty results in these things for... reasons, but since capitalism has historically been practised with large amounts of state interference to benefit this same state (East India Company, Japan's Iron Triangle, European Social Democracy... China to take a modern example) - I highly doubt it.
Ffs, to deny that 19th century colonialism didn't happen because Japan, the US and the European powers didn't want to expand their markets and acquire new resources is historical illiteracy.
>>44448232
>>44448307
Hi, these are good posts and I just wanted to thank you (or you both) for making them. If you are the same anon who recommended "The Art of Not Being Governed" in another thread that goes double.
>>44448176
But that's what everyone does. Everyone picks and chooses what they want and what is useful for them. It is why a Christian might think it's alright to say a gay person is going to hell, but that you shouldn't force a rape victim to marry their rapist despite those being in the same book of the bible.
>>44448312
Well said anon. I've read elsewhere that we are still struggling, most likely, with the labor theory of value - ie, how much time/effort you put into something determines its worth, rather than how much others subjectively value it. Therefore, a gender studies degree can be as rigorous as a math degree in terms of research and study and practice and reading (I know it's likely not, but bear with me for sake of a theoretical here), but the math degree has more usage and value to other people in our information-based society. Therefore the gender studies degree holder feels their time spent - they too spent 4 years in uni - is not as well compensated as the math degree holder's. I can't blame them for thinking it's unfair, but it's all about how useful your work is to other people that determines their readiness to pay for your services or labor.
We teach people that they are worth the stars in the sky here in the US as they grown up, and the poor saps believe it. Really, we have no more use for each other than we ever had - if you can do something we like, you're sure to get a reward and get paid. If not, then who needs you? I'd imagine it would be a nasty shock to someone who's put in years of their life thinking a certain way and studying a certain, largely unuseful thing, to discover that.
>>44448307
>Henry Hazlit
>Austrian Economics
Oh jesus christ, I'm done - I can't deal with autism on this level.
>>44444627
aye
>>44448232
>I agree that if we ignore the /pol/crap, this is a good RPG question.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. It's a snowflake question. What makes conflicts interesting aren't the super big high concepts that nominally drive each side, it's the smaller, focused personal interactions on the individual level. In most every case, you can weave together the exact same scene on the individual level with changes at the upper level providing absolutely no influence on the individual level beyond what sort of rallying cries they shout.
Different isn't better (nor is it necessarily worse). What you do with the setting is what matters, and all of this energy is being devoted to what color suit the other side is wearing is wasted.
>>44448516
You're right, but it ought to be about free exchange or else it's done in a way that upsets the market in an irregular way. Government subsidies can incentivize people to things that are economically unfeasible, for example.
And yes, the state has largely been present, and that's to our great misfortune in a lot of cases. Capitalism's worst enemies are established capitalists, who seek government aid to stay ahead of their competition. Business and government being in bed is a disgusting pairing.
Colonialism was not as much about expanding markets as it was an imperial race for greatness. It was one of the reasons given, but it was also a fad to have an overseas empire during that time period. Those colonial empires cost far more to the societies and their governments that owned them than they ever brought back to the home country. Too bad they figured it out too late and their pride made them reluctant to not take place in the great game of empire. France had to be dragged kicking and screaming from its colonial holdings, even though they hemorrhaged money.
>>44448530
Thanks senpai, but I haven't heard of that. I'll look it up now, though. Spasibo.
>>44448591
Not all Austrians are Mises or Rothbard. Hazlit and Hayek are two of the best respected by more mainstream economists; hell, Hayek even won a Nobel prize.
>>44446190
>>44446415
>>44446429
>>44448385
You'll note that nobody can point to anything he actually got wrong. In the 1980's, his critics had a long list of things he got wrong. But once the soviet union fell it turned out that he was right.
I won't vouch for or against his WW2 scholarship. But I went through the reviews for Inside the Soviet Army, Inside Soviet Military Intelligence, and Spetsnaz: Inside the Soviet SAS. In pretty much every case, Suvorov was proven right and his critics wrong when the facts came out.
>>44448466
Yeah he's an easy fun read that's perfect for RPG enthusiasts. He gets a lot of shit from slavaboos but IMO the bitching is pure nationalistic garbage.
Even if Stalin was planning on backstabbing his ally Hitler and attacking germany, who cares? I'd think better of the Soviets if it turned out that they weren't true allies with the nationalist socialists, not worse.
If you're interested in soviet-style totalitarian systems that aren't communist, then look at GURPS's Infinite Worlds. Shikaku Mon is a cyberpunk japanese alternate timeline that is weird and cool and hard to summarize, but the Swedish have embraced an ideology that is based on sociology and cultural memes that they use as a basis for a ruthless totalitarian society.
There's also Centrum, the villain of the setting, which fights a cross-world cold war against the default Homeline of the player characters. It also is totalitarian but not marxist (it's from a parallel history that diverges long before marx).
Both will give you ideas, or you can simply run them as written. Neither have anything to do with Marx, internationalist socialism, or nationalist socialism.
>>44448530
Thanks. Not the other guy. I haven't participated in the political argument at all.
I'd love to derail this political debate and have a discussion about traditional gaming.
>>44448601
See to me, you need a strong setting to set the stage for powerful and personally meaningful conflict.
I'm not quite clear on what your complaint is about a cold war game, but you could consider it an ideological mcguffin. It's not important which side the player characters are on, and the question might not make a difference in game terms, but it's important because the PCs think it's important enough to fight and die for.
>>44444238
Nazis, of course.
>>44448591
This right here is a perfect example of why you never drop names or book titles in an argument. The opposition would rather do 5 minutes of research to find and parrot the countervailing meme than to actually consider ever reading your book recommendations.
>>44448549
We are a product and that doesn't jive with most folks. They hate to think that they will be constantly judged for a value that they do not set. This is why so many young men are angry. Momma told them they are handsome and perfect the way they are. They heard that one day they will find their perfect girl.
This is bullshit, as proven by their lives. Women want a product, and if you aren't on the shelf they want to find you on, they wont bother.
Employers want a product. You got to make sure your packaging and content match their desires, sometimes even surprising them with additional quality and features.
You have an expiration date, and only you can market yourself or place yourself in the clearance bin. Life is not just a long tale of what happened to you that was beyond your control, it is a story of how you reacted to the things that came your way.
We have control of our lives, we just have to take responsibility for it first.
>>44448807
Oh wait, this has turned into a /pol/ shitflinging thread. My bad, I thought this might be a legitimate request for help.
>>44444238
Classical Chinese Middle Kingdom.
>No concept of the nation-state.
>There are only rulers who are better or worse at preserving order.
>The Western barbarians and their foolish ideas about 'democracy' and 'communism' threaten the divine order of creation.
>Are you a filially pious enough dude to save the Son of Heaven?
>>44448682
>Government subsidies can incentivize people to things that are economically unfeasible, for example.
Like dealing with "externalities", right? Such assholes.
>>44448312
>debt is not an asset
Depends on the debt. Purchasing the debt of others entitles you to more financial compensation per-dollar-spent than you would otherwise get on your own. You know this better as "investing," but make no mistake: you are purchasing the debt from a company on the promise that it will be compensated in full, plus extra.
>>44448682
>Not all Austrians are Mises or Rothbard. Hazlit and Hayek are two of the best respected by more mainstream economists; hell, Hayek even won a Nobel prize.
The old Harvard/Yale/Stanford "saltwater school" is long since discredited. That goes back to the late 1970's. Even their remaining proponents have had to reformulate their ideas in modern forms. Mostly radical leftists, these days.
The dominant school of economics is the Chicago school ("freshwater school"). Basically, nearly every modern economist. It encompasses monetarism, but that's only one subschool within it. It's also absorbed most of the best ideas that did check out from the saltwater school.
The other fringe movement is the Austrian school. Mostly conservatives and libertarians, it's more of a philosophy than an actual economic school IMO. The consensus among mainstream economists is: "they have some good ideas, but they go too far and are more than a little weird." And yes, many Austrians (named after many of the originators' origins as refugees fleeing nazi europe) have some very big and influential names among them, and both they and the Chicago school credit guys like Mises, Hayek, and Frank Knight among their founders.
These are all macro-economic theories. Microeconomics doesn't have schools like this, because the science is much more settled. Among economists, there's concern that macro hasn't actually hit on a theory that works yet, any of them, but micro is very solid.
Marxist "economics" is totally incompatible with what economists study. They have their own language, their own theories, their own worldview. They don't recognize the validity of any of it-- micro or macro-- except (for SOME) a tactical concession that micro does a decent job of describing capitalist systems. Most theorists won't even go that far.
>>44448837
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say we are a product, but we are selfish in that we want what we want and aren't sorry about it, despite our protesting that we are. I wouldn't give money to a charity that did something I disliked (maybe it's some charity that thinks autism is caused by vaccines, etc), or something I didn't think would be helpful to myself or others. I don't buy books I don't like and I don't buy food I don't like, I want what I want. Everyone wants what they want - that's not unfair, it's just the way we are.
>>44448873
Not nearly enough talk about race and Jews to make it a /pol/ thread tbqhwy senpai.
>>44448926
No, I'm talking about stuff like farming that's subsidized in drought-prone regions of California, or the sugar subsidy that makes it more sensible to put high-fructose corn syrup in soda instead of actual sugar.
"Externalities" shouldn't exist because people/companies ought to be fully responsible for all of their actions, and if they cause harm they ought to be curtailed or made up for somehow (usually fines) by the person causing the harm. Make the person causing harm pay for it and watch the problem disappear - or watch that idiot run himself out of business. I've got no sympathy for people who push their own costs off onto others.
>>44448873
There's some diamonds amongst the shit. I was hoping to derail, but this thread may be too far gone.
>>44448977
Nope, by definition it cannot be an asset. It is a liability.
That said, debt can be leveraged to free other assets (like using a loan instead of paying cash to remain liquid).
>>44448837
>Life is not just a long tale of what happened to you that was beyond your control
Ultimately it is. Whether or not you are able (aka willing) to tackle what needs be mostly depends on your genetic make-up and your formative years. Even more so if you have an atypical phenotype for the area and period. An early leukemia, for example, is not something you can battle through with sheer "willpower". Which explains why I'm fine with safety nets, and paying the taxes which are required for those. For every "and I lived to tell the tale!" boisterous affirmation, there are so many more who just died.
>>44449097
Literally not how it works in accounting. So by definition, you are wrong.
>inb4 accounting doesn't matter to economics
>>44448909
I've always wanted to see a China that managed to pick up all the technological stuff from the West without getting so fucked up internally.
Imagining organizing a coup to overthrow a dictator because he wouldn't use the official title and seal bestowed upon him by the Chinese Emperor, as 'King of the Tributary State of the Dominican Republic'.
>>44449020
Well, the 1970s also saw the horrible stagflation that paralyzed Western economies. So I can understand why the shake-up happened then.
I know most of what you said already, but I've never heard talk of the "saltwater" and "freshwater" schools before. It's too bad neo-Keynsianism was so chic in the last decade or so, with retards like Krugman advocating to replace the dot-com bubble with a new bubble (the housing bubble would do just fine, thanks Krugman).
And yeah, Austrianism does read like a philosophy under some authors. Mises' reasoning for this was that economics could not conduct experiments (you can't ever have the same economy twice) and could never be a hard science, so he had to come up with another way to conduct economics. It's sound reasoning if you look at it like that, but I can understand why it's viewed with disdain. Mises' critiques of socialist economy were phenomenal though, even if I'm not entirely sold on his ideas of praxeology and the like I greatly enjoyed reading his other works.
It appears you've studied econ a lot more than me, though, so I was wondering, as someone coming from the Sowell-Hazlit-Mises route of econ (informal, really - a lot of reading but no classroom stuff), what are some good mainstream economics texts to read? Are there any good podcasts/websites you know? I'd really like to get into mainstream econ stuff but don't know where to start. Sowell's been a blast, but I'd like to know what people learn in uni.
>>44449034
And I was talking about vaccines and shit. That's also something governments subsidizes and it wouldn't be economically feasible without. Just don't throw the baby with the water.
>>44449097
Thank you. Glad someone else knows what they are talking about.
>>44449034
>that's not unfair, it's just the way we are.
Fairness is an absurd human construct. If we want to be wanted, we must first look at ourselves and not instantly blame those who do not want us.
>>44449173
>Ultimately it is.
Statistically, it isn't. Early leukemia, or malnutrition in the developing world, is not the same as a grad student in the west who cant find a job. We had been speaking about the first-world, as that is what we are most familiar with.
I agree, safety nets are fine, but not for spoiled westerners with smart phones.
>>44449192
Citation needed.
I'll admit I never went deep into accounting, but as far as I went debt was a liability, period. There was no confusion or complications over the matter, when dealing with assets and liabilities, debt was always a liability.
>>44449034
>Not nearly enough talk about race and Jews to make it a /pol/ thread tbqhwy senpai.
I figured that's what the crack about Austrian economics was alluding to. Most of those guys were Jews. Though admittedly that was what they said about Chicago economists, too.
>>44449274
>Statistically, it isn't.
That's more of a neuroscience question than a statistical one. And the literature is going more and more in the "consciousness and free will are shams" direction.
>>44449345
He might be talking about accounting tricks such as the famous Collateralized Debt Obligation. There are other exotic financial vehicles as well, but just look what happened when people invested in those...
>>44449224
Not that guy but you should look at Hyman Minsky and Michael Pettis for a better understanding of debt dynamics and a look at what Keynesianism should have evolved into as opposed to what it actually became.
"Stabilizing an Unstable Economy" - Hyman Minsky (there's a lot in here about the 73-75 recession, if you're interested in stagflation)
"The Great Rebalancing" - Michael Pettis
"The Leaderless Economy" - Temin, Vines et al
>>44449345
Then you didn't actually go into accounting. Liabilities are obligations to a company, where assets are things companies own. Debt can be both of these things, and in fact when one entity purchases the debt of another, their balance sheets change to reflect the reality that one company's obligation has become another's asset.
A company can be in debt while holding the debts of others, and in fact this characterizes a number of Real Estate Investment Trusts and other investment companies.
>>44449244
But if more people want vaccines, then demand is generated, which increases the profit margin, which leads to more people breaking into the vaccine market, thus bringing the price down.
It'd get sorted out in time, but government subsidies can have unwanted effects, like increasing costs over time because the money will always keep flowing and there's no incentives to cut costs then. Our healthcare system is totally fucked, by the way, with most hospitals not even knowing how much they charge for things or the reasons why, simply because most people will just pay with insurance so they're all but guaranteed the money. Shit's fucked, senpai, and unfucking it looks uncomfortably Herculean.
>>44449274
>fairness is absurd
It's a very common human concern, though, common across all cultures. It's kind of in-born that we think fairness ought to exist - how much is a constant debate, but it's still there. Children know it's unfair when they get sent to bed earlier than older kids, etc.
And the idea of fairness before the law is very, very good and allowed our society to thrive, but when we misapply our idea of fairness to things that cannot be fair without great pain or suffering, then we have problems.
So we believe all people ought to be able to grow up and be scientists or whatever else, rather than restricting access to a nobility, that's good because we get more scientists. No one is harmed in making opportunity fair game. But when we believe all people ought to all have the same income or material wealth, then that involves a perversion of fairness that calls on us to restrict personal freedom.
>>44449382
Nah, only Rothbard that I know of off the top of my head was Jewish. Friedman was Jewish, but the majority of Chicago economists aren't.
>>44449452
>But when we believe all people ought to all have the same income or material wealth
You know that not even Marxists want that right?
>>44449274
Can't speak for the first world, but as a dirty second worlder, I do believe in free will over fate most of the times. Based predominantly on personal experience that the vast majority of the really bad shit that happened to me could be traced back to some decision.
>>44449421
>what Keynesianism should have evolved into
His basic idea - spend during the bad years, save during the good - is decent, but it implies that we know what to spend on during the bad years as everything's falling apart, and that governments will be up to the task of saving during an economic upswing rather than be incentivized to spend, spend, spend. That last part more than anything killed it, from what I know. Poor guy gets a bad rap now, Hayek said in an interview he was a brilliant man, he just wished he had studied more.
Thanks for the book suggestions senpai, I'll check 'em out. Family knows by now to only send Amazon giftcards for Christmas, I'll snag some on there for cheap I hope.
>>44449503
Yes, but it's a common SJW appeal for "equality" taken to its absolute logical end. I know SJWs and Marx have little in common, though.
>>44449452
>fairness
There's saying I've picked up somewhere and believe it to be true - You can't expect things to be fair, but you can hope for them to be unfair in your favor.
>>44449526
Humans are really good at rationalizing events after the fact, but that doesn't mean we're good at rational choice.
>>44449415
Investing in debt isn't an issue -- break away from the idea that "liability" is necessarily a bad thing. It's just something that at some point in the future a company might have to shell out money for.
>>44449421
>Then you didn't actually go into accounting. Liabilities are obligations to a company, where assets are things companies own. Debt can be both of these things, and in fact when one entity purchases the debt of another, their balance sheets change to reflect the reality that one company's obligation has become another's asset.
>A company can be in debt while holding the debts of others, and in fact this characterizes a number of Real Estate Investment Trusts and other investment companies.
You don't even begin to understand what you're talking about. When you purchase debt, you're not purchasing the fucking obligation to pay it, you're fulfilling that obligation in the purchase. You're purchasing the rights to get paid, you're purchasing a fucking obligation, not debt. You're either ignorantly, or worse yet purposefully, intermingling the ideas of debt and debtor to obfuscate the reality of the situation. You purchasing another entity's obligation (assuming you didn't do so on credit) does not make you a debtor it makes you a debtee.
Further, accounts/notes receivable have the possibility of not being paid so they're almost never accounted for at face value on the asset side.
Fuck me I hate when people are obtuse on purpose.
>>44449097
A debt is an asset to the loaner (accounts receivable), and a liability to the debtor (accts payable).
no idea which side it helps.
>>44449526
>the vast majority of the really bad shit that happened to me could be traced back to some decision.
Creating some rule/law was a decision too. Everything is a decision friend.
>>44449589
Of course we're not. At least not automatically.
Rational choice is something we learn with age, broadening our collection of insights and learning from past mistakes.
Well, ideally it should be something we're taught from early age, but education system is nowhere near that far.
>>44449660
>Further, accounts/notes receivable have the possibility of not being paid so they're almost never accounted for at face value on the asset side.
But according to you (or whomever the dimwit was that said debt was a liability) they should categorically never ever under any circumstance be placed on the asset side because they're liabilities. The admission that they CAN be placed on the asset side is proof positive that you or doofus was wrong.
>>44449673
Helps me out, I appreciate it anon.
>>44449410
Neuroscience has a long way to go before it escapes the shackles of philosophy. Have you read any Thomas Metzinger?
>>44449452
> It's kind of in-born that we think fairness ought to exist
Nope, we learn it young on the playground, it is purely cultural. My daughter came home from Kindergarten spouting nonsense about fairness. It is tricky explaining to such a young child that it rains on the just and unjust alike. Is it fair that the gazelle must suffer so that the lion should live? No, this is just the reality we had been born into.
>>44449526
For most this is true. Leukemia is rare, no matter how much we cry "cancer" on 4chan.
>>44449553
I love that! One I picked up is: The only fair fight is the one you win.
>>44449589
This. We love to believe we are rational beings, but we aren't very good at it in practice.
>>44449684
Umm.. I'm not sure how to phrase it in English, but while you're technically correct, I'd say there's a difference between decision you're making with some knowledge of the options and decisions that might matter but you have no idea knowing what the difference is or will be Say - every day you can take two paths to work, one day you get hit by a card on one of them, it wouldn't have happened if you had taken the other one, it was your decision which path to take but you couldn't have known so there was no real... weight of your agency, or whatever I should call it.
>>44444323
How do you mean? There are lots of examples of anarchist societies. Large portions of Spain were occupied by anarchist militias (betrayed by Stalin), Ukraine had huge Anarchist armed force that played a huge role in the USSR October revolution (betrayed by Trotsky), the "Golden Age" of piracy is a pretty good example, lot's of ships created Constitutions (long before the USA was around) and many pirate ships operated in a non-hierarchical consensus based decision making platform, as well as equally sharing loot. Not too mention hippie communes are typically run as an anachist/communalist project.
protip: the USSR would be a much better BBEG than Anarchos because the USSR has huge access to researching (first satellite in space, first man in space, and first object landed on the moon) and to military power because of their top-down highly authoritarian power structure. Anarchist BBEG will just be peasant farmers or bearded dudes with dynamite.
>>44449727
>implying that any prior use of the word debt meant or implied "becoming a debtee" and the word wasn't used to mean "becoming a debtor"
>>44449224
If you're an amateur, stick to micro. Macro is a mess, and it sounds like you've read everything worth reading if you're an amateur.
On the micro side, the best graduate textbook is Robert Frank's. Nicholson and Snyder is very good but very math-intensive.
A word about Krugman. Not vouching for his politics or views on macroeconomics, which is out of his area, but his work in microeconomics is genuinely brilliant.
>>44449797
Legal theorists call what you're describing "moral agency". Psychologists call it locus of control. It refes to the degree to which your decisions influence the outcomes you experience in life, or the degree to which you think they do, or the degree to which society expect them to.
>>44449777
>it's purely cultural
I don't know, the Golden Rule (don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you) appears across a lot of cultures. I don't know if it's coincidental.
>>44449927
>Krugman's work in microeconomics is brilliant
Oh I don't doubt it, there's a reason why his word carries so much weight. It's just that when he steps out of his zone of expertise, he makes a fool of himself, but ordinary people see a smart economist say a dumb thing and assume it's a good idea.
Is this the guy I'm looking for? http://www.amazon.com/Robert-H.-Frank/e/B001IGHSP0
>$190 book
>paying this much for 500 pages, including citations and source pages
It's like I'm in college all over again, Jesus Christ.
>>44450439
Buy it used, or an old edition. Honestly, sowell's book is more than enough.
>>44450604
Fair enough. And yeah, Sowell's great. His prose is straight to the point, not a wasted paragraph in the whole 600-odd page Basic Economics that I've read so far.
>>44444238
To get back to the OP, take your pick of any of them
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_forms_of_government
If you want your adversary to be like the cold war USSR described in American history lessons, you kindda need it to be totalitarian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
Also the fa/tg/uys discussing /pol/ shit on here knows crap-all about capitalism and even less about communism. They mainly recourse to name-calling. And have very little insight into the discussion they are running.
>>44445455
Poo in Loos are not very threatening enemies.
>>44444238
If you want a good alternate history Cold War scenario where communism isn't around, go with a world where Baron Roman von Ungern-Sternberg was victorious.
Our histories diverge in 1919, where the White Russian factions unite behind Sternberg instead of leaving him alone in Mongolia. He establishes his horrifying theocratic empire same as in our world, but with a large and competent army, his 1921 incursion into the USSR is successful instead of ending in his death. By the late 20s, the Soviets have been crushed and a political purge unlike anything the world has ever seen is perpetrated upon the Russian population. China is utterly broken and reduced to a loose confederacy of fortified coastal city states lead by Chiang Kai Shek, and all of central Asia is united under the Baron's flag. Nazism and Fascism have been ideologically preempted, and the reactionary thinkers of 1930s Europe travel to Mongolia to become disciples of the Baron instead of inspiring right-wing revolutions in their home countries.
No Hitler, no WWII, just a general sense around the world of a rising darkness in the East too vast and terrible to confront on the battlefield, and utterly alien to contemporary Western capitalist democracy. Whether or not the atomic bomb eventually comes into play is up to you, but it would probably be delayed for decades without a second World War, allowing for a cool dieselpunk 50s and 60s.
>>44449927
> real economist shows up
> /pol/shits vanish
> can we talk about gaming now?
>>44451262
>rationalwiki
>pretentious wankery: the wiki
>>44444238
Good job OP.
>>44452760
I don't know if the feel of that would be right. It seems like it would lack the McCarthyism aspect of the Cold War, with enemy infiltrators in our universities and stuff.
What would a spy from a vaguely pagan Russo-Asian monarchy even look like?
>>44453530
>What would a spy from a vaguely pagan Russo-Asian monarchy even look like?
>>44444238
my god.
I understand you people went to war against them a couple of days ago, but seriously, you can´t oposse "communism" against "democracy". that´s like saying catolicism oposses monarchy.
socialice the means of production has nothing to do with having a democracy
having communist economy doesn´t make you Stalin´s USSR the same way having a capitalist economy doesn´t make you Hitler´s Germany.
learn a bit about this, guys seriously. (not trying to butthurt anybody)
>>44444775
Take your "No True Communist Scotsman" argument back to /his/ where you belong, hippie.
>>44445319
Volgin was a GRU colonel, and he almost started WW3.
>>44452902
>can we talk about gaming now?
Definitevely. I really liked >>44446190 ideas about non-aligned nations. Working for an independant faction could be really cool
>>44447198
I'm not your friend, buddy.
>>44447340
>You mean DEMOCRATIC people's republic of North Korea? Oh wait.
I don't think he ever did. He was responding to what you posted, not deflecting. Why are you deflecting?What are you hiding from?
>>44447478
>nice and cold up here in the land of the free.
Where do you live? I'm in Ohio and it just rained for 4 days.
>>44447484
>War is great for business. Why the shit do you think it's done?
Because some people hate each other.
>>44447703
>>44447736
I live in fear of the day one guy in his basement hijacks the cyberized parts of my friends, family, and coworkers.
>>44447806
You seem really mad. Like, generally mad. Do you derive joy from being mad, or are you just not happy all the time and need to express it?
>>44447953
>Just name a major recurring villain
I don't know. Daleks? Are they a villain? Are they transhumanist? I thought they were just really angry trashcans. I don't watch Doctor Whoa.
>>44444238
Fascists, Syndicalists, Democratic Socialists that hate your country. Mornachists, Theocrats
>>44448312
>Complaining on social media is not activism
How does changing your Facebook profile pic - even just putting a new shade over it - do anything for anyone anywhere?
>>44448466
>oh, for a world that speaks one language!
Nice try Cipher, but not even dubs will trick me.
>>44448873
It was legitimate, things just get hijacked on 4chan sometimes. Things like news and history boards.
>>44453664
>that´s like saying catolicism oposses monarchy.
I played Crusader Kings 2 and it does.
>>44444238
Capitalist Oligarchy
>>44444238
Pro Capitalist Anarchists that oppose all forms of government regulation.
>>44456449
Sounds bait-ish, but on a similar line of thinking I'd totally use sovereign citizens as a side villain. Crazy fucks.
>>44456680
I was being half serious, poor set up for a cold war villain but good shit stirrers.
>>44456734
Come to think of it, having the PC's be sovereign citizens for an evil one-shot might be good for a laugh.
>>44456781
Murderhobo behaviour is probably something the average Sovereign Citizen would love to engage in.
>>44456878
I guess you could argue in some respects sovereign your average murderhobo could be considered a sovereign citizen, but I digress.
Sovereigns: The Liberation?
Bug-out-shelters and Feds?
>mechanic for coming up with enough plausible sounding legalese to make the cops leave you alone in frustration without pissing them off after you for running a red light at 100mph without signals at a stop outside your jurisdiction, whatever it is.
>acquire property by creating false liens.
>sabotage enemy judges' credit rating with false bankruptcy claims!
>>44455423
Daleks originally looked like humans. After a war went nuclear and dragged on for centuries, the population faced widespread mutations. Evil scientist and partial mutant davros created a mutant Kaled and a mechanized body for it to operate.
That's what daleks are: a hideous mutant stuck in a miniature tank. Transhumanist endgame.
Anarchy would be the antithesis of Communism and play into the whole ideology battle but Theocracies would be the ones with the most to loose.
I personally have always wanted to see a Technocracy or Geniocracy where only the intelligent scientists and engineers come into power. Either a standardized intelligence test or peer reviews of your studies and research as well as contributions to society would land you in power.
>>44447117
>>44447279
>National SOCIALIST German Workers Party?
>>44449777
>Neuroscience has a long way to go before it escapes the shackles of philosophy.
You're confusing it with psychology.
>>44444323
We take it in turns to be a sort of executive officer for the week, but all acts of that officer need to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority, in the case of purely internal affairs, or a two-thirds majority in the case of more major issues.
>>44447478
. . .you're a goddamned war. . .
edit please.
>>44459373
S E V E N M I L L I O N U K R A I N I A N S
>>44444775
>I propose that people are inately capable of flight and that all they have to do to achieve flight is to jump off a really tall building and flap their arms really hard. Yes, I know that all of the people who have attempted this have fallen to their death, but that's just because they didn't do it right, they weren't REAL flyers.
>>44444238
>What are some other weird types of society to oppose democracy?
What if democracy is actually the weird society you're opposing?
>>44448054
The internet is a government programmed created by and for the government before being expanded to commercial and other uses (like butanese stick figure image boards). There's nothing capitalistic about that.
>>44444238
The British empire
>>44455610
I always wanted to learn Espranto
>interesting thread ruined by /pol/ and /leftypol/
Why am I not surprised?
>>44461215
Wi-Fi was also developed and patented by a government agency (The Australian CSIRO)
>>44449727
>But according to you (or whomever the dimwit was that said debt was a liability) they should categorically never ever under any circumstance be placed on the asset side because they're liabilities. The admission that they CAN be placed on the asset side is proof positive that you or doofus was wrong.
At that point it's not a debt. It's an account or note receivable.
>>44461489
Politics, boys.
>>44461215
>>44461513
A lot of consumer technology has its applications in military technology, and this has always been the case. Even canned food originated with Napoleon wanting a better way to feed his soldiers while they're on the move.
Looks like the desire to stab other people is a bigger motivator for scientific progress than economic systems.
>>44461489
>[Thing I like] ruined by [people I disagree with]
Welcome to earth, stranger.
>>44452760
You'd also have to alter the terms of the treaty of versailles as well as figure out some sort of response to the Great Depression.
Remember, it's the treaty of versailles combined with the depression that caused WWII. You've not done anything to preempt or change those two events.
>>44461554
Actually the CSIRO is pretty solidly non-military. They mostly work with Medical, Astronomy and Pure Science development.
It came from previous work in radioastronomy being adapted for the sake of 'Hey, you think this will work?'
>>44459373
>Commune
Alright Ill give you this. It was an anarchistic mess but at least it somehow worked
>Makhno
>anything other than a bandit that terrorized Ukrainian peasants with his armed mob
pff
>Durruti
pic related
>Tito
I wont even comment on this. I live in ex-yugoslavia and you have no idea how shit worked. Titoism and worker's self management was a joke. In reality Yugoslavia was just like the SU except it was slightly better of as it was constantly showered with US money so that they didn't go back to the SU. Also Tito was already dead when Reagan came to power
>Dubček
Wasn't given enough time to see if it could genuinely work.
>Allende
Maybe the only guy who deserves to be on this list
>Marcos
>Zapatistas
>anything other than another narco clan
keep dreaming
>Chavez
Managed to make his country an extremely poor shithole with constant shortages even though Venezuela sits on the biggest oil reserve in SA.
The guys on this list are either people who have been in power for less than a month, bandits or corrupt nepotist dictators.
Good job
>>44447254
It's hilarious how commies think that the perfect response to criticism is "but capitalism did it too!". Which not only confirms how fucking stupid they are, is not even a real argument because it excuses nothing, but also bares the typical commie paranoia. Because they always assign capitalism so others. None of those leaders presented there said "I'm doing this for capitalism". They did not follow capitalist idealism, and capitalist idealism barely fucking exists, because it's a buzzword commies use for everything that is not communism.
But the communist criminals? All were VERY clear about their political motivations, and they had the same idiotic viewpoint that if capitalism conceivably did something, they could do it, too. And because of their insane ideology, they of course blamed capitalism for literally everything, so they could also do literally everything.
>>44461564
>Remember, it's the treaty of versailles combined with the depression that caused WWII.
I want Kraut sympathizers to leave.
The Treaty of Versailles was extremely, and I do mean fucking extremely generous. It was the middle road between the French wanting to destroy the empire right across the fucking border that had been brooding on decades, if not centuries, of butthurt and grabbed every opportunity to stroke their anti-French hateboner, and the desire of Americans to have a strong industrial trade partner. Versailles was not exceedingly cruel or harsh, especially not compared to the terms the Germans themselves imposed on others when victorious (Brest-Litovisk being only the most extreme example). The only thing Versailles did, precisely because it was so lenient and didn't destroy Germany altogether, was piss of nationalists who believed the Stab-in-the-back myth. In their mind, Germany was moments away from breaking France's back but then [scapegoat du jour] argued for a peace unfavorable to Germany. Nothing, save for the destruction of Germany itself, could reverse this mode of thinking.
As for the Great Depression, Germany got out of it before America did, and even before Hitler got to power. It was just yet another reason for the National-Socialists to more or less fabricate a prolonged crisis that could be blamed on those evil Frenchmen and their allied lickspittles.
This was an age of nationalism and, especially in Germany, an age of butthurt. Nothing could've prevented the Germans from chimping out a second time, except there no longer being a Germany.
>>44459373
>The FARC
>Chavez
And THESE are the champions of objectively not-terrible socialism? That just shows how deluded socialists are.
>>44461611
>generous
Eh, I don't fully agree, but I don't disagree strongly to make it an argument.
My point isn't whether or not the treaty was "fair", my point is that the terms of the treaty gave the Nazis something to point a finger at and rally around. As long as that treaty remains as is, Nazis will rise up. Yeah, it's a scapegoat type deal, but when dealing with shit like propaganda, appearance and spin are what matter, not the realities of the situation.
>nothing could prevent
Yeah, there you're wrong. The nazis needed scapegoats like the treaty and the jews to rise. You may try to argue that they'd just find something else, to which my point would be that there's little to nothing else that could have provided that level of scapegoatism for them.
>>44461564
>Versailles
That is the easy part though
>>44461676
Somehow I don't think Germany would agree to that peace treaty and that would result in WWI going on longer.
>>44461661
>my point is that the terms of the treaty gave the Nazis something to point a finger at and rally around.
Even if it was a status quo ante bellum peace, large segments of German society (and not just the Nazis) would consider it an unfair deal precisely because the war ended before even a single allied boot crossed German borders. Nationalism was running high, the Germans had just rekt the Soviets and their Western border showed no signs of budging yet (though those who knew the numbers (pro-tip: not the majority of the common Germans) knew the war was already lost. Hell, Von Moltke argued the war was lost when the Miracle of the Marne happened) . The Jewish-led Bavarian communist uprising didn't do the Jews any favor either. Scapegoats were important, but someone would be scapegoated no matter what. To the Germans at that point, anything that wasn't a victory would be deemed unacceptable.
Foch's solution (refuse peace, fight until Berlin is occupied, then tear Germany apart into small and weak states) would be the only viable solution.
>>44461676
Good idea, horrible execution. Those are some of the ugliest borders I've ever seen and it triggers my /gsg/ autism.
>>44461676
Or, alternatively, America could just have stayed the fuck out and let a European war stay European.
>>44448115
not him but Technological advances =/= wealth. You'd have to analyse relative wealth per person/per group to draw an accurate analysis or our wealth vs theirs. It also depends how you define wealth. Pure amount of currency? Well obviously we have more, but that's a shitty way to asses wealth between two time periods. We're incredibly wealthy in luxury advances, but our personal freedoms aren't necessarily greater than the Romans. Nor is our ability to build lasting manifestations of our individual wealth. You're a rich Roman and want to build a fuckoff mansion? Cool. Labour is pretty cheap, there's abundant resources and space is near-endless. Go for it. You're a rich Brit (for example) and want to build a fuckoff mansion? You're going to have to be much more relatively wealthy because land is scarce, labour is quite expensive and the resources are more specialist.
>>44461770
Europe has no right to complain about other countries meddling with their shit. What goes around comes around.
>>44461791
Except that was the attitude of a lot of Americans at the time, not Europeans. Americans largely didn't want to go to war. The Allied Europeans needed the fresh manpower.
>>44461791
>it's only wrong when someone else is doing it
Or will you be cheering when the next world war is fought in America?
>>44459383
Read the sentence right before that one you highlighted. The Nazis nationalized huge swaths of the German economy. Later they made a few showy "privatizations" to appease the public. All that's right there in your quote.
What your quote doesn't mention are the terms of privatization. Profits went to the government, not shareholders. Management was chosen by the local Nazi party. So people got their shares of company stock back (at the one or two companies that had been re-privatized) but their shares were meaningless pieces of paper.
You're treating a PR stunt like it's the core of Nazi ideology.
>>44453664
Spelling and grammar aside (I assume English isn't your first language), this. Communism isn't opposite to Democracy.
>>44461818
>Only Europe has the right to stick its nose anywhere
I honestly will not care if the next World War is in America since I am not an American either.
The involviment of my country on both World Wars and sending a dozen hundred man just to show we totally support our ally America.
>>44461593
Don't worry, in a few years when the mass graves are discovered, half those entries won't be "real socialism".
>>44461818
To be fair, Europeans would still be furiously working to destroy each other if not for America maintaining the peace since then. America warned them what would happen with their garbage treaty, they didn't listen, Europe burned, and would still be blowing itself apart on a regular basis if not for our strong leadership. People bitch about American militarism, but they don't realize that an end to the world order of a single dominant superpower is not going to result in peace, but every would be conquerer rushing in to fill the void.
>>44461896
>To be fair, Europeans would still be furiously working to destroy each other if not for America maintaining the peace since then.
HA, don't be fucking ridiculous. America even refused to join the League of Nations, and even failed on one of their crucial promises that made the Versailles Treaty acceptable to France (the promise that America would intervene as soon as Germany started shit again). They did NOTHING to maintain peace in Europe. They set the stage for the Second World War to happen, did nothing for the first half, only got involved when the German offensive in Russia started to collapse and then swooped in to reap the benefits of a destroyed continent.
As for America "maintaining peace" afterwards, that's debatable. They actually got involved in the UN for a change, but ont eh other hand it's very dubious that a continent destroyed twice could afford a third war. This is why we already saw heavy cooperation between De Gaulle and Adenauer -without American involement! (De Gaulle was very much against American involvement in European affairs).
>>44444238
The Draka?
>>44461994
How about you eat shit and die?
>>44461920
And don't forget that America promptly declared Europe the theatre for the NEXT world war -you know, the nuclear one- without a second thought.
>>44462078
Are you going to throw a raging kegger with the football team at your house or your buddy's house?
>>44462020
>>44462089
Point is that America is no force for peace, and the fiction that Europe "would still be furiously working to destroy each other" is just Murican jingoism. Even going back to WWI, American enabled the war to drag on for two more years. Same thing with WWII.
>Tried to have a conversation about /tg/
>Constant /pol/ derailings
>Time to kill the thread.
>>44461920
Yeah, since my comments were about AFTER WW2 I'm not surprised that the situation before WW2 may have been different.
Though its entertaining to note that Germany's getting aggressive with its neighbors again, old habits die hard.
>>44462181
Are you seriously pulling a Godwin over Germany's leading role in the EU?
>>44462141
>american expeditionism is bad
>american should have been more expeditionist
>>44462141
>America is no force for peace
Its the primary force for peace in the world, and the fact that wars nowadays are drops in the bucket is the fruit of our labor. Unfortunately, most European countries don't chip in their fair share for NATO.
>Even going back to WWI, American enabled the war to drag on for two more years. Same thing with WWII.
Strange that you keep attacking a point no one attempted to defend, even for a moment.
>>44462188
Pointing out Germany's 2 for 2 and will probably be 3 for 3 as far as world wars isn't Godwin's Law related, as Nazis were only the impetus for one of those.
