Settle a bet.
Would the Elves of Middle-Earth sound like Welshmen if they tried to speak English?
Or would they have a kind of Nordic accent?
>>44146565
Finnish. That was Tolkien's favorite language.
TAKB'EIR
>>44146579
The pronunciation of Quenya is based on Finnish but Sindarin is closer to Welsh, so Galadriel would sound more Nordic and Legolas would sound more Welsh.
>>44146579
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUqTM6kCR_U
?
I have no idea what Welsh, Finnish or Nordic accents sound like. All I can imagine is a thick Irish brogue.
>>44146638
A Welsh accent could be confused with an Irish accent by a layman.
Tolkien himself said that the elves would sound like Finns and Welshmen in movie adaptations
As far as accents go
>>44146565
This is a question for
>reddit.com/r/Sindarin
>reddit.com/r/Quenya
>>44146638
Christian Bale is Welsh, surely you've heard him not doing that horrid bat-growl at some point.
Finnish, on the other hand, is not a language. It is high-pitched incoherent babbling, like a teenager on laughing gas just got hit in the head and is speaking in tongues.
>>44146742
>elves would sound like Finns and Welshmen
>Welshmen
TONGUES OF FIRE ON MOUNT DOOM FLARING
NEWS OF FOE-ORCS NEAR DECLARING
TO HEROIC DEEDS OF DARING
CALL YOU, ELVISH MEN
>>44146565
Sindar would sound Welsh while Noldor would have a slight tendency to rally English.
>>44146801
I listen to Bale, and he sounds more British to me when he's not faking an American accent for interviews. Maybe it's because I'm from burgerland, but it doesn't sound very distinct.
>>44146801
>that horrid bat-growl
IT'S EXPLAINED IN THE FIRST FILM YOU PLEB
>>44147003
That's no excuse, no one could sit through the first film without laughing to death every time he opened his mouth
>>44146565
>Elvish is not a language!
>Quenya and Sindarin are
So, Chinese isn't a language?
>>44146985
>British
There's no such thing as a "British" accent. There are many variants of English, Welsh, Scottish, Cornish, Irish and Manx.
>>44147043
It is not.
>>44146802
actually have an erection just now imagining that
>>44147043
Well, with Chinese there is one dominant language but if you use just "Elvish", peons will assume Sindarin and patricians Quenya.
>>44147003
It isn't though
>>44147100
It is, some kind of throat-box voice distorter in his armor so people won't recognize his voice.
>>44146579
I hear a mix of Finnish and Greek when I hear Elvish.
It all depends on the translation. Since Tolkien translated it to the English it should sound like one of the accents IN English not as Finns speaking English.
In the Turkish translation for example they speak with a heavy artsy Ottoman palace language while the Hobbits speak a more countryside everyday Turkish and the Rohirrim speaks more like steppe riders of old Turkic clans.
All depends on the translation and finding appropiate paralels in the language you are translating the Red Book.
>>44147132
That is literally never mentioned in the film.
>>44147132
It still sounds like shitty growling and it's the only thing batfleck seems to do better
>>44147185
but it is
>>44147151
The way the Turks do it sounds pretty cool.
>>44147479
It sounds like they do it the way everyone does it
>>44146802
For anyone who doesn't get the reference (and also because I had to find the video anyway after that post)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRtnWVvDX6k
>>44147239
Give us a timecode, then.
>>44146802
That is fucking awesome.
You sir have just won the internet.
>>44148683
Ithkuil has 96 cases.
>>44147043
depends on how you view it. You can break it down to a few other languages/dialects that makes up Chinese with Mandarin, Hokkien, Cantonese, Hakka, etc. Mandarin is dominant in mainland China but places like Hong Kong or Malaysia are quite dominant in Cantonese and Hokkien respectively.
so, much like Elvish having dialects
>>44146565
They would have perfect RP accents or whatever the Middle-Earth equivalent is because they're Elves and they're the best at languages.
>>44148705
Those are not cases in the image though, it looks like a relation chart between words that are similar in writing to each other.
Concerning noun cases, finnish has fifteen of them.
>>44149678
Yeah, most of those are polysemes and morphological derivations.
>>44146614
She'd sound Finnish, Finns sound different from their neighbors, a lot different.
The Welsh accent is pretty sing songy but there's no fucking way you'd be able to take any elf seriously considering how dramatic they are.
>>44147239
Then give a source. I just Googled it, and all I found was hits on the "Fan Theories" subreddit and other nonsources.
>>44149918
börk
Consonant phones in English that aren't in Quenya:
>tʃ - cheese would sounds like "teese", probably
>dʒ - jump would probably sounds like "dump"
>z - zoo would sound like "soo"
>θ - thing would sound like "fing"
>ð - this would sound like "vis"
>ʃ - sheep would sound like "seep"
>ʒ - vision would sound like "vi-zon"
Other consonant sound would sound similar.
Vowels:
>J - pronounce this like ⟨i⟩
>ʊ - pronounce this like ⟨o⟩
>e - pronounce this longer ⟨eː⟩
>ɜː - pronounced like ⟨ɛ⟩
>ə - pronounced like ⟨ɛ⟩
>ɔː - pronounce this shorter ⟨ɔ⟩
>æ - pronounced like ⟨ɛ⟩
>ʌ - pronounced like ⟨oː⟩?
>ɑː - pronounced like ⟨ɔ⟩?
>ɒ - pronounced like ⟨ɔ⟩
I'm surprised no one has attempted this. I didn't do diphthongs or consonant clusters and I assumed any sounds that overlap with English would be pronounced perfectly (an unlikely assumption). All of this would only be for a Vanyar elf who has no exposure to Sindarin, so not very useful for anything related to middleearth.
>>44150910
>J - pronounce this like ⟨i⟩
should be
>(I) - pronounce this like ⟨i⟩
>>44150910
>ð - this would sound like "vis"
What a lot of non-native English speakers do is say "dis" instead. I think there might be alternatives for the others as well, depending on the phonemes Quanya does have available.
>>44150910
>>ð - this would sound like "vis"
but they have voiced th in it
i have just today started reading hurins kids and a preface about pronunciation specifically mentions it - not with the "th" graphemes but with "dh"
>>44150910
>>dʒ - jump would probably sounds like "dump"
Please don't give the fanfic writers any more ideas.
>>44150154
Finns sound like Doctor Bombay.
>>44146801
>Finnish, on the other hand, is not a language. It is high-pitched incoherent babbling, like a teenager on laughing gas just got hit in the head and is speaking in tongues.
Mad Swede detected
>>44148683
my eyes!
>>44155329
no dude, I know a Finnish person who once described the language as, "gibberish. Very, very pretty sounding gibberish."
It really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCOlMKVrYaE
>>44148683
Can any Finns on here tell me how they teach this shit in schools?
Or do you just learn the whole language naturally?
>>44147100
hey there, senor huevos
>>44157581
It just works mate.
>>44157829
>not reporting him for breaking GR15
Gotta keep up the quality of this site.
>>44146801
>He was into that whole Yale thing
>>44146801
>TRY GETTING RESERVATIONS AT LOTHLORIEN NOW YOU FUCKING STUPID BASTARD
>>44158877
>>44158001
This. It just works. It all just makes sense.
>>44160764
Kualikiäryle jiäkuapissa.
>>44151998
The mode of beleriand (aka early sindarin, what pretty much everyone in the Silmarillion was probably speaking when in beleriand) has 'dh' and 'th'. As I said, my analysis is kinda limited in that it only applies to elves who never left Valinor.
Gondor, Rohan, Bree & the Shire actually sound like Arabs and Jews
>>44163943
Gondor would sound like Mediterraneans
Rohan like Germans
Bree/Shire like country Englishmen
>>44146802
Sons of Elwe, march to glory, Victory is hov'ring o'er ye,
Bright eyed freedom stands before ye, Hear ye not her call?
At your sloth she seems to wonder, Rend the sluggish bonds asunder,
Let the war cry's deaf'ning thunder, Ev'ry foe appal.
Echoes loudly waking, Hill and valley shaking;
'Till the sound spreads wide around, Morgul Vale's courage breaking;
Your foes on ev'ry side assailing, Forward press with heart unfailing,
Till invaders learn with quailing, Cambria ne'er can yield.
Thou who noble Eldar wrongest, Know that freedom's cause is strongest
Freedom's courage lasts the longest, Ending but with death!
Freedom countless hosts can scatter, Freedom stoutest mail can shatter,
Freedom thickest walls can batter, Fate is in her breath.
See they now are flying! Dead are heaped with dying!
Over might has triumphed right, Our land to foes denying;
Upon their soil we never sought them, Love of conquest hither brought them,
But this lesson we have taught them, Eldar ne'er can yield.
>>44147047
>Ireland
>Britain
>>44164294
>What is Ulster
>>44164479
Ulster is Ireland.
Britain is an island, not a country. The segment of the UK on the island of Ireland is not part of Britain.
>>44164521
Great britain is an island. Ireland is however still part of the british isles, as is the isle of man and all the little islandy bits around scotland.
>>44164008
>Gondor would sound like Mediterraneans
Adunaic is based on Semitic languages as is the descendant language Aduni translated as "Westron".
>Rohan like Germans
Rohirric is semitic based as well
>Bree/Shire like country Englishmen
Actually like arabs or jews.
>>44163943
>>44164622
Where are you getting this?
I was always under the impression that the vast majority of Tolkien's cultures shown in the War of the Rings were roughly Germanic/Anglo-Saxon in origin. It makes sense, too, because he was a scholar of those races specifically, and because the mythology of LotR is an attempt to invoke those cultures. So where are you getting this, which seems to contradict that?
>>44164622
>Rohirric is semitic based as well
No, it's not, in fact it literally uses old Saxon words.
Are you pretending to be retarded?
>>44152027
she did a huge jump on his chest
>>44164521
>Britain is an island, not a country.
that's Great Britain
Britain itself can refer to either the island or the UK
>>44165229
That's just translation convention you dolt. Rohirrim speak language closely related to Westron, so as Westron (even the names) is translated to English, language of Rhohan is translated old Saxon.
We have a good idea what Adunaic sounds like and from that Westron somewhat.
>>44165018
Making the Anglo inspired people speak English inspired language in-setting for no reason is retarded.
>>44150910
>θ
It's used in Vanyarin Quenya. Tolkien also wrote an essay, "the Shibboleth of Fëanor", about the sound change from þ (aka /θ/) to s in common speech by a majority of Noldor, and the ensuing political power struggle when an enraged Fëanor accused his kinsmen of degeneracy and destroying the language of their ancestors.
>>44164061
That just gave my erection an erection.
Finnish thread?
>>44146658
A Welsh accent would probably be confused a foreign language by a layman
>>44168958
Would you say that the Welsh language sounds brutal or beautiful?
>>44168991
Brutiful.
>>44168957
maken järki = make's sense
Kaksoispiste de de de de
>>44169540
This is Elvish thread, use proper spelling.
Cacsoispistë dé dé dé.
>>44168991
Beautal.
>>44169018
>>44173132
Welsh confirmed for orc/elf hybrids.
>>44146565
They would have their own accent. What kind of shitty question is that?
>>44167182
>sound change
>political power struggle
Fëanor confirmed for being a fucking nazi about language
Only a linguist could think of this
>>44146658
>A Welsh accent could be confused with an Irish accent by an American.
Fixed that for you.
>>44146638
https://youtu.be/zfwE7Gc6OT8?t=68
>>44167174
>Making the Anglo inspired people speak English inspired language in-setting for no reason is retarded.
But Tolkien was a linguist. The Elves all spoke languages inspired by Finnish. Having the Anglo inspired people speak an Anglo inspired language would be consistent, not "retarded" or meaningless.
>>44173749
he did invent the tengwar alphabet, so theres that
>>44167174
>Making the Anglo inspired people speak English inspired language in-setting for no reason is retarded.
So you arbitrarily decided they sound like arabs and jews?
>>44176271
It's almost like most problems in noldor history are the result of feanor being a drama queen
>>44146638
Merrill from Dragon Age 2 has a Welsh accent.
>>44147100
>being an autist
Please leave. Your kind isn't allowed here.
>>44167174
You know, you've said absoloutely nothing to prove your "they sound like Semites" position, a position that is contrary to all logic and sense.
>>44181259
I thought the Dwarf language was supposed to be the Semitic one?
>>44169753
>>44169540
What does this mean in English/Men of the West language?
>>44181301
So Rohan are dwarves now?
>>44181301
Runes are Semitic?
To be honest, I kind of thought that this guy was joking about that at first. Like, how some people compare the dwarves to Jews (makes sense), but then they also compare the Númenóreans to Jews (I can see it, I guess), and he was taking it to the next level by having everybody in Middle Earth be Semitic? I dunno.
>>44181412
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Middle-earth)#The_Lord_of_the_Rings
>When writing The Lord of the Rings Tolkien continued many of the themes he had set up in The Hobbit. When giving Dwarves their own language (Khuzdul) Tolkien decided to create an analogue of a Semitic language influenced by Hebrew phonology. Like medieval Jewish groups, the Dwarves use their own language only amongst themselves, and adopted the languages of those they live amongst for the most part, for example taking public names from the cultures they lived within, whilst keeping their "true-names" and true language a secret.[10] Along with a few words in Khuzdul, Tolkien also developed runes of his own invention (the Cirth), said to have been invented by Elves and later adopted by the Dwarves.
>Tolkien also elaborated on Jewish influence on his Dwarves in a letter: "I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue..."
>>44181746
But none of that has anything to do with Hobbits/Rohan/Gondor
>>44181776
No it doesn't. I'm the "I thought the dwarves were supposed to be the Semitic ones" anon.
I don't know where these other people are getting the idea that Rohan or Gondor are supposed to be semitic.
>>44181746
>invented by the Elves and later adopted by the Dwarves
Oh, huh, ok. Seems kind of odd that the Elves would have runes and their own flowy script, but I guess they had a lot of languages.
>>44181877
IIRC the cirth were adapted specifically for inscribing or chiseling into things.
>>44175589
Yes, it is absolutely true that Americans are rarely exposed to a wide variety of accents in both real life and media and therefore are unfamiliar with them. Did you have a point?
>>44181357
"colon dee dee dee"
:DDD
>>44184877
Ebin.
>>44156949
I usually describe it as "Klingon trying to recite elf poetry" -The language
It's not far off, this language is almost nonfunctional
>>44163943
Are they suddenly Dwarves?
Gondor, MAYBE, if a couple old nobles musing on heraldry have taken up Old Adunaic as a hobby, but otherwise no. Read the books.
>>44184817
That Americans are usually ignorant of the rest of the world.
>>44185039
>>44156949
My friend told me he saw a funny video of two Finns trying to speak to each other and hilarity ensued.
Sorry for the vague description, but I'd love to watch it.
>>44185044
>Old Adunaic as a hobby
>It was intended to have a "faintly Semitic flavour" or style (SD:240)
>faintly
>>44146565
I just assumed that since most of the elves that spoke in the trilogy were centuries old they'd had all the time in the world to perfect their accents
>>44176192
>The Elves all spoke languages inspired by Finnish
No, just the Quenya speakers.
> Having the Anglo inspired people speak an Anglo inspired language
The Rohirrim have more in common with the Goths. They're vaguely germanic, not a 1 for 1 carbon copy.
Tolkien didn't like not!cultures
>>44176437
Because the Rohirric language is based on semitic roots you moron.
FFS Theoden's name is Tûrac
Rohan is called Lôgrad
Do you comprehend what a translation convention is?
The characters in LOTR are NOT speaking English or Old English.
Westron (Actually Aduni) is translated into modern English for the reader to understand. And Rohirric is translated into Old English to represent its archaic relation to Westron.
>>44181259
>You know, you've said absoloutely nothing to prove your "they sound like Semites"
Westron and its sister languages are based on semitic phonology and word roots.
Idiot
>>44146565
I recently read Herodotus on the War for Greek Freedom, and realized there are a shitload of similarities between his description of Ethiopians and Tolkien's description of Elves, so now I keep imagining all elves as tribal black dudes
>>44185282
>Westron and its sister languages are based on semitic phonology and word roots.
In the words of Tolkein "It was intended to have a "faintly Semitic flavour" or style"
>faintly
>flavour
So its KIND OF Semitic, at best, ya fakkin idiot
>>44185342
How does that contradict me?
I said based on
>>44185364
No, you said "They'd sound like Arabs" because of a language they don't even use anymore, that is only vaguely Semitic anyway, which makes you fucking retarded
>>44185282
>Rohirric is translated into Old English
Are you seriously confusing "antiquated modern English" with "Old English"? That's just flat out wrong. Canterbury Tales, Beowulf, etc.: THOSE are Old English, not "This I shall take as weregild" etc. Old English isn't just English that is old. Considering the actual background of Tolkien's creation, I should think this casts doubt on your credibility.
>>44185465
The people of Rohan speak westron translated as modern english to the protagonists.
Among themselves they speak rohirric translated as old english.
What's hard to understand about this?
>>44185402
>"They'd sound like Arabs"
They would. Semitic roots and phonomes.
>a language they don't even use anymore
Rohirric is related to Adunaic through the ancestor of Taliska
You are an idiot
>>44185673
Seriously, those other posters just can't accept they don't know shit.
>>44185673
>>44185810
>this damage control
>>44148683
Doesn't look any worse than Old Norse.
>>44185845
I came into this thread late, and was frankly disgusted by ignorance on display. It'd behoove you to do your own reading before you start spouting off how you think Adunic or Westron sounds. If you don't know, you don't know. There's no shame in admitting it.
>>44185966
I know how it fucking sounds, and at best it is vaguely reminiscent of Arabic/Hebrew
>>44185988
Yes. That's the point.
I'm not saying Rohirric IS semitic anymore than Sindarin IS welsh or quenya IS finnish
>>44186044
But you're saying Theoden would sound like King Saud bin Abdulaziz Al Saud if he spoke English?
>>44146565
Probably Finnish or Welsh depending on the variant of Elvish. I could imagine Elrond as sounding more Finnish while Legolas would likely sound more Welsh, or such is my guess.
Bear in mind, you do have distinct branches of ''Elvish'' and elves. An Elf whose native tongue is Quenya would sound different to one whom natively speaks Sindarin
>>44185342
They don't just sound like Hammurabi travelled four thousand years forward in time and started swearing profusely, but the idea of triconsonantal roots (also known as "Semitic roots", as the Semitic languages are the only ones that use them) and some of the few features of grammar that are known were lifted straight from Semitic languages. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and was intended in Tolkien's own words to have the faint flavour of a duck, then it's a goddamn duck.
>>44186708
>and was intended in Tolkien's own words to have the faint flavour of a duck
And emus have the "faint flavor of a duck", it doesn't mean they're fucking much alike
>>44186728
Nice argument. Super tight logic you got there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khOK1xDtTOk
Elves are pretty
>>44186742
And right back at you "Hobbits sound like Arabs" really holds up with your logic bro.
>>44186728
But emu tastes like filet mignon.
>>44186772
Emus have wings and beaks.
Adunaic sounds "faintly Semitic"
Therefore Emus are ducks and Gondorians are Arabs.
Do we agree on these things?
To me Finnish and Hungarian always sounded like the speaker is running out of breath.
>>44186784
You seem obsessed with that single quote but ignore the grammar argument completely. If you're unfamiliar with Adûnaic, just say so man. Here's a good introduction to the language if you'd like to learn more. http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/adunaic.htm
>>44186827
Those sound nothing alike? it's like comparing english and french.
>>44186831
>but ignore the grammar argument completely
I ignore it because it does nothing to prove that Hobbits/Rohirrim/Gondorians of the 3rd age have fucking Arabic accents.
That was the original point no? Or are you moving the goal posts?
>>44186874
Nah, Finnish is more like one of those unspeakable Lovecraftian tongues while Hungarian sounds like angry bears and Germans shouting at each other. It's the grammatical structure that is similar.
>>44168957
>Organizationalize
That is not a word in English. Or at least, not a word I have ever seen used in any context ever. I don't know what it means, and google isn't giving me much.
>unorganizationalize
>antiunorganizationalise
Okay, now we're just making shit up
>>44186953
>he doesn't speak finnish
On siinäkin taas yks pikkuviisas nörde.
>>44187154
>On siinäkin taas yks pikkuviisas nörde.
Én csak magyarul beszélek.
>>44187117
Pretty much.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/j%C3%A4rjestelm%C3%A4llistytt%C3%A4%C3%A4
>>44187176
>Én csak magyarul beszélek.
There, there. At least you know some english, that's more multilingual than some others.
>>44186877
Having reread the thread to see what that anon had exactly said, a Gondorian having a Semitic (ranging from Arabic to Maltese, Akkadian, Carthaginian Punic or Hebrew) accent when speaking English would be logical, but about as meaningful as the concept of an "Indo-European accent", or not that meaningful at all in my opinion. Adûnaic also seems to be much closer to Akkadian than Arabic, but that's an extinct language with no speakers.
There's enough vocabulary of Westron known to show it also likely has a Semitic root system. The lexicon of genuine Rohirric, on the other hand, is tiny with six or seven words, and the only identifiable feature of grammar is the plural ending -in, the same as in Westron (see also Hebrew -im). In the absence of evidence it would be reasonable to conclude it would have retained the triconsonantal root system.
Adûnaic also has a some cool Semitic puns. Eärendil's name, Azrubêl ("sea-lover") is almost identical to Azruba'al ("the help of Baal"), also known as Hasdrubal Barca, brother of Hannibal. And the translation of "two wizards" in Adûnaic would be Zigûrat.
>>44146565
everyone knows elves are the nazis. tolkein was very big into WW2 allegory in his tales of bilbo and his black cauldron.
they would have german accents.
Wait, would Dwarves sound Isreali then?
>>44185282
>FFS Theoden's name is Tûrac
>Rohan is called Lôgrad
Where the hell do the words Theoden and Rohan come from then?
>>44188236
Theoden is the word Tûrac translated into Old English. Rohan comes from Sindarin Rochand.
>>44175615
So what were the hobbits supposed to sound like?
>>44185673
>Among themselves they speak rohirric translated as old english.
Because it's not -Old English-. "Old English" isn't just "English from a long time ago," it's English with a whole bunch of other words, letters, spellings, etc. that have since fallen entirely out of use and would be illegible to a speaker who was only educated in modern English."
The fact that you're using "Old English" and "old English" interchangeably is really troubling. How can I trust you to know shit about conlangs when you don't know shit about your own language?
>>44187398
I would imagine like Euro Jews or whatever as they spent much time in the lands of others and most were born in foreign lands.
>>44190490
Australians
>Captcha:bradford
>>44190490
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEsZkTTgydc
>>44194405
>look into this
>he was known for dining and dashing, apparently
this is perfect
>>44194573
>What is the charge?
>Eating a meal?
>A succulent Chinese meal?
>>44164622
>hobbits sound like Arabs
Fucking triggered
>>44194405
what is the context behind this?
>>44147898
Sounds too manly for elves.
>>44194405
>Gentlemen. This. Is. Democrrracy. Manifest.
I want this as a ringtone or something.
>>44194980
Someone doesn't know shit about Noldor or Elves beyond insecure /tg/ dwarf-boner meming.
