Pathfinder General /pfg/
Martials: Fixed by Path of War
Magic: Fixed by Spheres of Power, psionics (psion is still tier 1/2 though), and Akashic Mysteries
When can we get the skill system fixed?
If you are asking for build advice, please mention if any third-party books are allowed, and if so, which.
Unified /pfg/ link repository:
http://pastebin.com/HwxEjiKW
Previous: >>43571748
>>43579000
The skill system can only be fixed by a full rework so that there isn't a spell that automatically bypasses the need to properly invest in any skill.
Either that, or a full removal of said core spells, which I don't really like.
>>43579000
First for our koala man overlords
>>43579000
Merge skills further without reducing the overall level of skill points granted, and fix some of the crazy DCs.
>>43579000
>skill system change
Yeah make acrobatics, escape artist, and fly checks str instead of dex.
>>43579000
The skill system's biggest problem is that there are tons of things that replace it and they are all accessible within the first 5 levels of the game. You either need to make skills emulate magical effects fairly early, or you need to gut all the magic that replaces skills. Maybe some combination of both of those.
Is the Fiend Flayer Magus any good? I can't help but feel that Infernal Mortification could be much better
>>43578701
>>43578869 (You)
To continue with the playtest Archetype
Quills are another boring saving throw tradition. How do you not yawn writing these?
Hymn Nerds are the same as above.
Lords of the Wheel have an interesting bonus to stealth, like a weaker hide in plain sight. I'd actually be worried about the balance of this at level 1, but by level 5 and above its probably trivial.
Cagebreaker is absolutely cool and absolutely ridiculous. Do the saving throw thing or the attack bonus thing and make it a standard action rather than a swift. Having both as a swift? Are you trying to put domains out of business?
Lens Makers are quite cool, with some interesting flavorful but weak abilities that make spy style characters more convenient to play.
Stained Glass Champions get Commune 1/week? Honestly any campaign that actually gets used in, its going to be horribly busted. In some campaigns itll be mostly fluff. Are you not intended to be able to join a tradition until level 6+ or something?
A Revenant of the Lance threatens creatures adjacent to them, but if they are using a reach weapon, they still cant actually make an attack against something next to them, so how do they take the AOO? The outsider stealth negation is useless against most outsiders but completely invalidates any stealth outsiders. This ability is about as fair as immunity to mind affecting affects, its either useless or ridiculous varying by monster. Either way, its totally unreasonable for this tradition and needs to be nuked, this is the biggest balance issue i have seen in any tradition, i wouldn't approve of putting this on anything short of an artifact or an ability you have to actively use. It is toxic to DMs in restricting their encounter design greatly. Hang whoever wrote this at your local hanging tree.
Why does the Arrow tradition get to use bows as improvised weapons, but not crossbows?
Cont next post.
Reposted new thread so Gareth wont miss it.
>>43579090
There are also too many ways to replace Charisma with Intelligence.
>>43579162
Nah, I see it as not enough ways to replace intelligence/wisdom with charisma.
>>43579128
Sorta sad shattered mirror tradition aren't called the defenestrators
>>43579128
The welsh sounding brand people are a saving throw order. No fun to be found here.
The Golden Council take saving throw traditions and add their own little twist. Nice. Still not as good as an actually fun tradition bonus, but more fun than stuff like the welsh people.
The Crashing Tempest Academy reminds me very much of the Order of the Arrow and the Lens Maker society. They help add function to a concept, but this one leans close to strong. Should be fine though.
The Beggars were Chinese gareth. Get your fictional kung fu right. The CMD bonus seems out of place, but overall i think this tradition works very well. Far superior to the boring saving throw traditions. Good concept helper for improvised weapon characters.
The Carnies are very similar to the Lens Maker society in how they help concepts. I would argue their balance level is exactly the same as the Lens Maker Society.
Ordre des Repas Exotiques sounds great, though i would say they might actually be a little on the weak side. Then again, untrained knowledge checks is one helluva drug. I feel like they should get some kind of bonus for eating food, not just protection from it. Also the can't catch diseases from food thing seems to suggest that these chefs would go out of their way to eat rotten crap, aren't they supposed to be gourmets? I feel like their bonuses should be from eating food, not protection against bad food, since they deserve it if they can't prepare good food! Being a crappy chef and having to eat rotting pigeons should be a violation of the oath.
>>43579284
>"We are the Defenestrators!"
>"I-It's short for 'Defending Administrators', I promise."
>>43579284
Defenestration has got to be one of my favorite words in the English language.
That, and "loquacious"
>>43579317
Anon, rotten shark meat is a delicacy in real life. Lots of people eat "disgusting" things.
>>43579333
It's a great word, needs to be used with the discipline. Fucking close enough to windows
>>43579128
>>43579317
Ultimately for the new traditions Gareth my conclusion is that you haven't matched the glory of the Travelogue and you never will, but the "concept helper" traditions are great.
>>43579339
Yes but the point is you are supposed to be a chef and prepare things and never let something crap go to plate. Surely a member of this order would prepare rotten shark meat in such a way it was perfectly safe to eat.
>>43579357
Even perfectly prepared fugu (japanese puffer fish) can still kill somebody. Hence why immunity to ingested stuff is nice to have. Couples well with the "don't let stuff go to waste" part of their oath.
>>43579317
>>43579339
Us in the west, too.
Cheese is just specifically decayed dairy.
Fun fact: If you give someone the smell of sweat/body odor and tell them it's cheese, they can think of it as appetizing.
Cheese is indeed pretty tasty, though.
>>43579357
Anon, you live in a world where people willingly eat lutefisk and 100 hear old eggs. Plus meat aging is also a huge business as well.
>>43579386
(I kind of think the point of /perfectly/ prepared fugu is that it can't kill you. In japan, chefs actually need a license to be allowed to prepare it for customers.)
But immunity to ingested poisons makes sense to me, since you're kind of 'a master of consumption'.
>>43579415
Even eating fugu from a licensed chef is still risky:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugu#Incidents
/pfg/, is Divine Commander warpriest any good for making a mounted archer? If not, is there a better way to make one, ideally with casting? Path of War is allowed, but the party already has a Warder and an Unchained Monk, so I'm looking to not be too heavily invested into just damage output.
>>43579000
Been out of PF for a while. What tier are Path of War character classes?
>>43579447
They range from low 2 (Mystic) to 3 (the rest of the full initiators, and some of the archetyped 1pp classes) to high 4 (the rest of the archetypes 1pp classes).
>>43579447
Low to High Tier 3.
>>43579000
Does path of war ACTUALLY fix martials, though?
>>43579483
Depends on how you define "fixing".
But I'd say yes.
>>43579483
Insomuch as you /can/ fix martials in 3.x, PoW comes fairly close. Subsystem access is generally what makes for a competent and varied character, after all.
>>43579483
Do they fix the balance? Depends who you ask. It ranges from 'absolutely' to 'it's gone too far and they're too strong'.
Are they fun to play now? Absolutely.
>>43579473
>>43579474
Thanks. That's probably as close as it's going to get. Will read over it.
>>43579549
One thing to note is that Path of War Expanded so far has been a lot better written and balanced than Path of War 1. There ARE legitimate balance issues, especially at low levels, with the PoW material, but most of that's been published and needs errata.
They've been listening to the community a lot more for the PoW E playtest.
>>43579483
Depends on how you define "fix". It creates martials with the same basic action economy advantages and mobility as casters, boosts their utility, and generally makes classes that are better at fulfilling their advertised role. For me, that's "fixed".
For first-party base classes alone, there are 19 separate spell lists: alchemist, antipaladin, bard, bloodrager, cleric/oracle, druid, inquisitor, magus, medium, mesmerist, occultist, paladin, psychic, ranger, shaman, sorcerer/wizard, spiritualist, summoner, and witch.
What is the process that Paizo goes through when deciding what spell lists any given spell should go into? What makes them think "this would be appropriate for W, X, Y, and Z caster classes, but not for other caster classes, and should be at different levels for the classes that have the spell"?
What is the logic that goes into this? Is it all purely arbitrary?
>>43579614
No idea, why don't you go ask Paizo?
>>43579614
They ask real alchemists, wizards and paladins what spells they know and write them down. Duh.
>>43579124
I would like to bump this question
I'm running a game where martials use PoW, arcane and divine magic uses Spheres of Power, ancient cultures use Akasha, and alien species like lashunta and kasatha use psionics. It is literally the best game any of us has ever played, with heroes who feel like heroes at every level and very solid balance between all members of the group without anyone playing or feeling even remotely like anyone else. It is probably the closest I've ever played to something that I'd call an ideal RPG.
Even better, there are almost no trap classes or options, and this is one of the first times in years that everyone has made their own character and I haven't had to help someone rebuild it within the first three sessions because they picked options that seemed cool but were actually crap.
>>43579614
They go off what they think feels right for the class. There was a post where JB basically said as much, I'll see if I can find it.
>>43579725
>game where martials use PoW, arcane and divine magic uses Spheres of Power, ancient cultures use Akasha, and alien species like lashunta and kasatha use psionics.
Are you me? If so, how did you find people to play with and help you finish making our homebrew?
>>43579483
No, because there is no Loli iconic
>>43579774
Mystic iconic has twintails though, that gets points.
>>43579761
I.... I don't think I'm you...
There's a lot of players around here and not as many people interested in GMing, so it wasn't too hard to get 5 people who wanted to play a game, and then I just let everyone know the first session would be character building and I would have some specific resources available for them.
If we're not the same person, I'm super excited that someone else saw the potential in a campaign world like that!
What are the best level 1 save or lose spells across all spell lists, for levels 3-5 PCs?
>>43579818
>I.... I don't think I'm you...
I AM THOU.
THOU ART I.
>>43579806
Twin tails is shit.
>>43579818
Okay, yeah your not me. I live in the middle of nowhere, and just recently moved to a house without internet, so I can't play on Skype with my old friends anymor
>>43579774
Speaking of, is it just me or does it seem like the average age of the DSP iconics is a bit older? The Mystic and Daevic seem to be the youngest iconics, while the Stalker and Vizier look like they're close to middle age, the Warlord looks like he's in his 30s, the Guru is a graybeard, the Psion on the cover of UP is balding, and the Soulknife has worry lines and age wrinkles. I don't have anything against it, just curious if other people saw the same thing and if it was intentional.
>>43579869
I bet you think fighter and wizard are balanced too
>>43579774
I'll be so disappointed if the Iconic Zealot isn't a magical-girl.
>>43579891
That is incredibly sad. Are you going to be able to get cable/DSL run out to your new place any time soon?
>>43579834
color spray, grease, and stinking cloud come to mind
>>43579993
Sleep as well, for mooks
>>43579942
Not for another year at the soonest, we're busy focusing on getting the property better managed and ready for farming, as well as fixing this house and shed that was apparently made by a city lawyer who had no earthly clye as to what he was doing. Then there's all the refencing, harrowing, grass seeding, ravine repair, soil analysis, planting, brush and tree removal, and all of that is on top of working on my sister and I working on our degrees at the University about 30 minutes away from us and keeping full time credits to be able to benefit from our folk's Hazelwood and GI
Until we get all of that settled, its college internet and phone data for me.
>>43579934
Nova's last act was to submit the art order for Zealot, art which is already paid for and thus not negotiable unless suddenly a couple hundred dollars appears to pay for something completely different. You can click the spoiler but all it will do is make you sad.
And no, I am not joking.
>>43579834
Just look up a spell guide list. A 3rd level wizard gets level 2 spells, a 5th level wizard gains level 3 spells. Just look at a guide or a spell list. Daze, Color Spray, and glitterdust spam easy.
>>43580023
That... Doesn't really give the feel of "armored psionic defender powered by hope and divinity."
>>43580023
Man that's a tasty hunk of meat. Kinda reminds me of a younger version of my grandfather though.
>>43580042
No shit. Precisely one person is happy with this art and I'll give you three guesses who it is. This is Bloodforge's original art all over again.
>>43580058
Man Bloodforge is great, but the art sometimes....Horrifying.
>>43580023
That looks more like something I'd expect to see for a Tzocatl iconic. Have you considered asking Ssalarn if he'd take it off your hands using the Tzocatl budget and ordering a brand new one from scratch? Because that doesn't fit the class at all.
>>43580089
Or a psionic caster guy. Could make a good unarmed psychic warrior.
>>43580100
Personally, with the trident, tribal markings, and crystal imbedded into certain points of his body, I'd say he'd work really well as an Akashic Iconic
>>43580023
Aren't most Zealots armored and the like?
Still, he looks hunky, unf. Up there with the Lashunta male.
>>43580086
I know anon. Believe me, I know. But at least the worst offenders have been fixed, even if the Aellar is still trying to find his shirt.
>>43580115
Pay someone $25 bucks to sketch in an egyptian headdress and remove the feathers from the trident and use it for the Pharoah!
>>43580141
>Zealots armored and the like
I know, someone should give him Panther Armor or some of that native American wooden Armor. Maybe the pelt of a Bullette. That'd be pretty rad.
>>43580058
At least it's a good piece of art, even if it's not a fitting one.
>>43580023
I'd rather fundraise a few hundred to change that character art than let that fucking glowing jewel Mook take space instead of magical girl.
Where's koala man because that shit is horrifying
>>43580163
Holy crap Gareth, this is actually a really good idea.
>>43580193
>Fundraise
I'm with you anon. While I personally think the art is good, man does it not fit.
>>43580193
This. Set up another gofundme so /tg/ can save the day again.
>>43580193I do have to do my job at least part of the day you know
>>43580023but I agree it's pretty fucking horrifying
>>43580201
Hey Ssalarn, how goes the Arcforge stuff? I'm really looking forward to playing a Blue in a mech, but my GM won't let me until Arcforge at least has all the rules in place, even if it's not out of playtest yet.
>>43580244
Is that an Asura?
>>43579755
What necessarily "feels right" for something as vague and mutable as the wizard or the cleric?
>>43580201
Actually, the more I look at the picture, the less feasible I think the idea is. The markings are obviously too tribal American to be easily interpreted as hieroglyphics, and there's a lot of small accents that separate it as well. It'd probably cost as much to modify that picture to the required extent as it would to commission a new piece.
>>43580252
Indeed. It's Taimi from Guild Wars 2. She rides around in her golem, Scruffy, during combat, which is a pretty solid argument for allowing mechs in relatively classic DnD worlds by itself.
>>43579993
>>43580028
Why are you casting Color Spray and Sleep at levels 3-5?
>>43580270
I don't think you realize pfg's clear disgust for this particular art and our reserve buying power from not purchasing paizo products
>>43580244
I'll have Arcforge and Tzocatl updates posted by Friday at the latest. I'll make a point of swinging by here and letting everyone know when they're up.
Arcforge is primarily small tweaks and additional materials, Tzocatl will have some changes to the Advocate and the new class that is replacing the Knight-Scholar, the Warspeaker. It now has a full BAB chassis and uses a new type of feat I added, Warcries (I also nixed the old Warcry edict as part of bringing in these feats).
>>43580333
Sounds good, thanks for the response.
Though, given how long it took you to bring out Arcforge, I'm sort of expecting that "Friday at the latest" to be next week's friday.
>>43580310
I think the art itself is good, on its own merit, it just doesn't seem to fit the Zealot /at all/. I'd love to be able to help the PW team out, I just don't know what the hell I'd do with it that wouldn't still cost more money.
>>43580310
Indeed. How much /does/ a piece of art cost? I'd be willing to drop $20 on a fund for a new zealot art.Doesn't necessarily have to be a magical girl. That'd be great though. Fantasy magical girl with heavier, practical armor, but obviously glowing brightly with the fires of justice? I'd be all for that.
>>43580409
There's more to consider than just the cost though. Waiting on new art for the zealot could mean also waiting on being able to publish PoW:E. It takes time to make art, and we're trying to finish things up and move on to the next project(s).
>>43580409
I immediately thought of this from your description.
>>43580409
You're looking at $200 or so - give or take some - depending on the artist we hire, how fast we want it and the level of detail.
>>43580442
Goddammit, I wish I was an artist, I'd do this shit for free.Okay, not "free", but "free PoW:E PDF" is a lot cheaper than what Gareth's quoting.Why can't I be good at art.
>>43580447
> That boob plate.
Damnit, I wanted to like this picture.
>>43580447
If she got some plating to cover her unprotected chest, it'd be perfect.
>>43580364
I deserve that.
I'm unemployed myself at the moment, so a lot of the work I've been doing is temp work and day jobs that often require me to spend about 4 hours of my day commuting to and from offices and job sites, and it's not uncommon for me to sit down ready to hammer out some work and then get phone call that there's a job for me if I can get on the boat /right now/. So, I kind of have a hell of time keeping anything that even remotely resembles a consistent schedule, and unfortunately, freelance game design just doesn't pay the bills on its own.
>>43580472
Right?
Did you ever read the Forgotten Realms book "Azure Bonds"? The ridiculousness of female armor in fantasy art was actually a joke they made in the book itself when the main character Alias loses her breastplate and they try to give her the ol' magical chainmail bikini top.
>>43580534
Yeah, that's fair. I wasn't really criticizing, just commenting on your scheduling. i'm fine with Arcforge getting updated whenever you can update it.
>>43580472
Hey its a concept not a binding agreement.
>>43580584
Another FR book I read a while back had a young tiefling girl comment that she'd look great in bikini armor, and then her no-nonsense dragonborn father (adoptive) smacked her over the head and asked her why she wanted to get skewered.
>>43580624
I read those! With the two tiefling sisters, a warlock and a fighter, right?
I actually kind of appreciate it when someone takes the time to simultaneously acknowledge the existence and mock the impracticality of "chainmail bikini" armor.
>>43580624
>>43580718
Don't worry, if you're a female dex-based aegis with the skin form suit, you can wear stuff that's as revealing as you want.
>>43580769
Just put a Sleeves of Many Garments on over your armor. Change it to look like boob plate.
>>43580779
I've actually always sort of liked the idea of a character grabbing an armor glamour enchantment and making her amror look impractical and skimpy for the sake of looking good and tricking people into thinking they can get easy hits.
>>43580624
>>43580718
Do either of you remember the name of the book?
>>43580804
The last time I used that sort of thing, it was to give the character an impractically fancy dress that flowed in the wind. Being an illusion, it was always amusing when people tried to trip her or something by grabbing it.
>>43580835
Brimstone Angels is the name of the series. I was really unhappy with the timeskip they did, but I got over it.
The intro to the first book is also probably the best portrayal of someone stumbling into an infernal pact I've ever seen.
Is the misfortune revelation for dual cursed oracles OP?
Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.
If I am reading it right that is basically a free re roll for your allies and ability to practically negate an enemies good roll, like a crit.
>>43580769
Which at least makes sense from a thematic perspective. I always kind of assumed the chainmail bikini was created by pervy wizard craftsmen or somewhat exhibitionary amazons who just used the links as a place to hang what's essentially a permanent mage armor spell.
I'm going to gracefully exit this conversation now as I feel like I'm tip-toeing dangerously close to the kind of territory where Gareth attempts to strangle me through the internet while custom ordering a knife engraved with the word "Professionalism" to end me with....
So, uh, I saw people talking about the daeva earlier, anyone still want to talk about that?
>Akashic Mysteries
?
>>43580877
>before the results of the roll are revealed.
It's not a free reroll or crit negator because you don't know what they rolled.
>>43579084
>fly skill
>STR
I just imagine the fighter flapping his arms like a cartoon character to gain lift off
>>43580909
DSP's take on Incarnum.
>>43580880
>or somewhat exhibitionary amazons who just used the links as a place to hang what's essentially a permanent mage armor spell.
GLORYBORN ARMOR MY FRIENDS
>>43580880
We we're discussing a fund me page
>>43580919
That's idiotic.
You get to know the outcome of their roll, but you don't know whether it passes or fails the unknown DC.
If you can just force an enemy to reroll something you completely didn't know the result of in the first place, that makes absolutely no difference from your perspective compared to just having them roll once.
>>43580877
Given that it only affects a given individual once and you have to pay for it by taking a curse that never gets the scaling benefits to offset its drawbacks, I would say it's fine. Unlike the Shaman and Witch Misfortune hexes, there's actually the possibility that the creature could get a better result, so you might waste it when used offensively against anything other than a nat 20, and I'm pretty sure there's a Cleric domain that does the same thing without the drawbacks.
>>43580919
I assumed that meant you know if they rolled a 20 but not what it totaled. Seems worthless if it's just roll twice and take the latter roll.
>>43580927
>Incarnum
?
>>43580959
If you see a 20, or a raw number within threat range, or a raw number that beats a DC, forcing the reroll is usually a good idea
>>43580976
D&D 3.5's take on a thesaurus.Classes that get always-on abilities that they select each day. The more powerful ons eat your magic item slots. It's pretty cool.
>>43580982
Agreed, but >>43580919 was implying you can't see the number they rolled before you choose to do it.
>>43580953
I think part of the issue there is time. The PW guys are trying to get Expanded wrapped and out the door, and custom art takes /forever/ unless you pay obscene amounts of money to get it rushed, and even then you're still probably looking at a month or more for a finished piece.
There may also be legal issues or precedents with a GoFundMe drive that I'm not aware of, so that would need to be something that would have to be looked into as well.
I will say, Gareth definitely hears you on the current art not jiving with the fluff and mechanics and I know it drove him insane to get stuck with art he didn't like on Bloodforge, so if there's a feasible solution, he'll be looking into it, and if that's the art you get it won't be because he didn't try his best.
>>43581092
Could always ask drawfags or Tumblr for help, I can think of some places you could check. Isn't Dorian doing the art for Steelforge?
>>43580997
When I did the Akashic Mysteries materials, I got rid of Incarnum's choice to have binds lock out magic items in those slots. It works if you're doing gestalt and giving out the incarnum class in place of loot, but for a base class it sucks to have to choose between your class features and your loot.
>>43581000
It's wonky because the mechanic assumes you will know what number was rolled on the dice, but not necessarily whether that number will be sufficient when added to other relevant modifiers. However, many GMs roll secretly behind the screen, so for the mechanic to actually have any function the GM would have to continuously be going "I rolled a 13 on the die, anyone have anything to say before I continue?"
It's a problem inherent to a lot of meta mechanics, which have to make assumptions about playstyle to work.
>>43581120
Steelforge isn't really a project I've been involved with aside from the occasional consultation with Psybomb about akashic materials or Arcforge overlap, so I couldn't say.
>>43580270
Removing all the tribal markings will be a pain, but not impossible.
The original artist probably has them on a separate layer, too - can't you just pay them a small amount to give you a clean version or change the markings?
>Tfw worried about GM's motivation
>Want to show how hype I am for the game to continue but everyone else is calm-casual about it and I don't want to look like the overeager one
damn social expectations
We discuss new Zealot Iconic?
I was thinking make her a non-human, perhaps a halfling or dwarf to keep with the "magical girl" theme, though I'd DSP has any other race that would fit, that would be fine.
As for theme or style of outfit, we know we want it to be heavy Armor, but what kind? Personally, my vote is for some manner of Landsknecht Armor and wielding either a Halberd, a Lucerne, or a morningstar/mace. Make her all fancied up with feathers and some kind of either religious or creedic rabbard or banner. Maybe a cape instead?
As for bair style, I'm feeling tomboy or curly. Maybe braids?
>>43580310
That fish is staring straight into her crotch.
>>43581533
Wouldn't you be?
>>43581416
Fancy feathered armor has my vote.
Weapon eh, no idea.
Short curly hair for sure!
>>43581416
Fancy feathered armor, short curly hair, and a polearm. I vote bec de corbin, because bec de corbins are great. Or lucerne hammer, because they're similar.
>>43581416
Braids are the opposite of charismatic leader, unless it's certain styles of french braid.
Weapon should probably be some form of spear or polearm, since Piercing Thunder is the zealot's main weapon-style discipline. A lance would be good.
Leaders benefit from something that can wave in the wind, so either long hair or a cape, or both.
>>43580880
It's almost impossible to think there wouldn't be pervy old wizards.
I mean, fuck, the conjuration and divination schools alone were probably discovered by entirely impure reasons.
Crystal balls, anyone?
>>43581563
A pennant. On the lance.
Then it's easily spinnable for maximum fanciness.
>>43581576
Why do you think Simulacra were first made? Not to help a Wizard craft, that's for sure.
>>43580779
That's not what Sleeves of Many Garments does.
>>43581416
I'd like to see a man, actually. So many of the iconics are already "big powerful wymyn".
We need more cuties like the crossbow paladin, sure, but we also need some skeazy-looking used-car salesmen.
>>43581648
>The wearer of these sleeves can, when she slips them on, choose to transform her current garments into any other non-magical set of clothing. These new clothes fit her perfectly and are always clean and mended unless she specifically designates otherwise. When she removes the sleeves, her clothes revert to their original form.
Armor is a garment. iirc FAQs clarified it as just an illusion, too.
>>43581681
We need an Discipline with Appraise as associated Skill.
>>43581223
One of the biggest problems with Incarnum was that having everything key to individual slots was a frustrating mess to build and manage. That problem is still in Akashic Mysteries, despite being way more irritating than sometimes needing to take a +50% modifier on the costs of certain pieces of equipment.
>>43581681
Any new iconic for Zealot is likely to be male simply so we don't have to edit all the damn pronouns, honestly.
>>43581734
>Appraise the enemy's skill and their movements to dodge an attack
>Appraise the battlefield
Yes, we need this.
>>43581753
The first one is already the Scarlet Throne counters via Sense Motive.
>>43581734
It would be based around stealing valuable items, and sundering cheap or common items.
This includes arms, armor, andwomen.
>>43581769
Fine
>You appraise the quality and material of your opponents armor allowing you to ignore AC.
Or something like that.
>>43581752
In that case, can we get a young, wild-looking guy? Someone who leads from the front through sheer force of personality, using Sleeping Goddess to its fullest and launching cones of energy with the Destruction mission?Shonen protagonist zealot pls.
>>43581805
That's more the flavor of shattered mirror.I've given some off-handed thought as to what cool new disciplines there could be but the current spread of 21 covers quite a lot
>>43581805
How the fuck does knowing how good your enemy's shit is let you ignore that it exists, you retard?
>>43581837
You identify its weak points and where best to strike, then stab there.
>>43581837
knowing its weaknesses
>>43581837
By piercing it where it is the weakest?
Although now that you mention it, bonus to sunder would be better.
>>43581876
>Sunder
Oh god, please no. Unless you've got a sword like that one intelligent item in Steelforge, sundering destroys loot.
>>43581891
Hm true and I guess it makes more sense for a Discipline based on appraise to work in a way that damages objects as little as possible so you can later sell it.
>>43581686
So basically, having Glamered armor is pointless because a 200 gp item can do the same thing?
I'm fine with that. Paying for a +1 bonus just for fashion always seemed stupid to me.
>>43581753
>>43581891
>>43581922
You can already choose to leave an item with 1hp if you'd otherwise destroy it. That's an existing option with Sunder.
>>43581686
>FAQs clarified it as just an illusion, too.
Wait, what?
So my character isn't actually wearing a fresh set of clothes every day?
But what about the tactile sensation?
>>43581947
All hail the Doshking!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93oihEbeKmw
>>43581927
In 3.5, we had Gloryborn at a +150 cost for that. PF's got the Sleeves of Many Garments which arguably work just as well. I am perfectly okay with this.
>>43581950
still need to pay for the repairs, or else be a dwarf aegis.
>>43581950
Yeah but who would buy a 1hp armor?
>>43581974
>Sleeves of Many Garments: Are the effects of sleeves of many garments illusion or transmutation?
>The effects are illusion (glamer) like the glamered weapon and armor properties. This means they can’t be disbelieved like a figment could, but they do not actually physically change the clothes. The transformation changes only the appearance, including the feel, smell, and other sensory aspects.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9sl0
It's complicated. You feel the clothes, see them, smell them, and they appear in all ways to be those clothes, but they don't actually physically change them (so armor would still work), nor can it be revealed as an illusion (since it can't be disbelieved).
You should get prestidigitation to clean your clothes.
Hm...
The Human statblock doesn't actually state their type.
I know it's meant to be implied, but it's kinda funny.
>>43581753
>>43581797
>>43581805
Maybe also allow to spend money to empower the strikes?
>>43582025
yeah, pretty much the core rulebook is the worst place to find description of races
>>43582024
>My refined rich girl character has actually been walking around virtually naked the whole time
Well then.
>>43582155
The best part is that she would never know unless she had delved into the mechanics of the item herself. It feels and looks like clothes and there's no way to disprove it, so...
>>43582112
I'm reminded of the many RPGs where 'throw money' is a legitimate combat ability, and sometimes if you throw enough, it's more powerful than the highest order of magic.
>>43582112
>Maybe also allow to spend money to empower the strikes?
But only money it has stolen from the enemy with previous maneuvers, so you/the DM don't have to worry about wasting all your wealth and so your steal maneuvers don't make you richer than the rest of the party.
Also maneuvers where you steal from the enemy but bypassing the stupid Steal maneuver. Maybe roll appraise to add a bonus to you CMB or to steal with a Sleight of Hand check instead.
>>43582112
How would that actually work?
>>43582171
Yeah that's where I got that idea from.
>>43582172
Hmm I guess that could work. Maybe also counters that make your wallet absorb damage?
>>43582173
You are so filthy rich you bribe reality.
>>43582024
Wait, I don't get it.
It changes the feel of the clothes but doesn't physically change them? What?
So you could turn your silk shirt into tough leather, and it will feel like tough leather, but if someone runs a blade along it, it still cuts through it to your skin?
Or conversely, you could be wearing full-body armor and turn it into some skimpy dancer outfit, and someone could rub your stomach and feel your skin despite it actually being illusioned armor?
>>43582199
Hm. Wallet.
Maybe make it like one of those 'floating gold value' pools like the Pathfinder Chronicler gets?
You have a 'Wallet' that you can use to do your super capitalism moves, and is separate from your actual money.
>>43582021
So maybe have it be a dual disciple with appraise and craft weapon/armor. A stance that lets you repair weapons as a full round action (or at least glamer them so they look repeared).
Call it... the golden dream, or something.
>>43582199
>You are so filthy rich you bribe reality.
This reminds me of Pageant of the Peacock and I fucking hate you for it.
>>43582226
Or even weirder, you glamer up an outfit that includes a scarf, and then your ally falls down a cliff: you have no rope so you throw the scarf at them... and they can grab it and feel it, but can't climb up? What would that even be like?
>>43582226
Yep. Don't ask me how it works, it's magic.
Are people really so fucking stupid you can't understand the concept of perceiving something that isn't there? It's an illusion, you semen-guzzlers, the point is that it fools your senses into noticing something that isn't there?
>>43582274
You think you feel it and your mind fills in the blanks but you are actually grabbing air. Same way, you couldn't pull or apply force to it that would apply force to the person wearing it.
In fact, if the noble in >>43582155
used it without sufficient real clothing, she'd probably get a cold pretty soon. Should she have no shoes on either, probably has to pick out all kinds of shit from her sole-less feet.
>>43582238
Hmm that sounds good but maybe a bit complex for a simple discipline.
Maybe some strikes simply give you money? I think that would be easily balanced by the fact that to empower your strikes you have to spend money.
>>43582254
Huh? What's that?
>>43582327
>Huh? What's that?
Bard masterpiece that lets you use bluff instead of any knowledge.
You bluff so well it's actually true. Somehow.
>>43582327
It's a bardic performance that lets them use Bluff in place of every single fucking Int-based skill. That's literally it. No context.
>>43582344
Not just knowledges, see above.
>>43582344
CHIM?
>>43582344
>>43582351
That's actually kinda cool but also somewhat stupid...yet not stupidly cool. Weird.
>>43582344
>>43582351
Bard Masterpieces are friggin' great.
Like the one that lets you and your friends just dance up walls.I've thought for a while that the 1912 Overture should be a Masterpiece and let a bard crew a bunch of cannons at once from range.
>>43581753
Damage tanking stance, actually, rather than dodge.
Unless incoming damage was supported by a roll that beats your appraisal bonus, it is reduced by your initiator level+initiation modifier. However, incoming damage affected in this fashion cannot be reduced by a successful saving throw.
So you'd get uber hardness/resistance but you have to take it to the face.
>Devalue attacks
>Oversell (buff) allies
>cheap scams and substitutions, a-la ninja-vanish
>>43582327
Maybe the whole wallet thing could be a PrC or Class ability, so if you have the discipline while being this class you get more out of it, but it is still usefull wiithout it, like the Mystic with Elemental Flux, only the mystic has animus but Elemental Flux is still good without it.
>>43582421
Or how unquiet grave is better for undead.
>>43582397
That sounds like it'd be better as a psionic initiator prc. Something that takes a concept and makes it reality, ala Sleeping Goddess.
>>43582394
>>43582368
They fucking suck. At least, Pageant of the Peacock does. I would be fine with it if there was literally any actual attempt at fluff or a decent justification, but no, it's just MAGIC MUSIC LETS YOU LIE INSTEAD OF KNOWING THINGS OR MAKING THINGS. What the fuck.
>>43582394
I fucking love bardic masterpieces.
My personal favorite is The House of the Imaginary Walls. Mime a bridge across a gap or make an invisible ladder for your friends to use up a wall.Or make a wall and use Gloves of Shaping to make invisible mime spears to throw at people
>>43581809
Are you implying zealots should be screaming out their attacks and bringing their enemies to a heat end?
Man, and I thought all those embarassing lines were reserved for harbingers.
>>43582421
>>43582428
That could work. What would the class/PrC be called though? Merchant Lord?
>>43582445
yes
>>43582431
A pseudo-initiator system like the Reactor's Overdrive pool?
so what's the deal with akashic mysteries? has any post-first-book content been confirmed (or unconfirmed)? is there any akashic content in other books (beside Lords of the Night)? did the guru's dependency on dealing damage many monsters are immune to get addressed?
>>43582431
So, what we have so far:
Supernatural discipline based on economics and trade with a side of con-man scams and light fingered stealing stealing things, maybe also a little of detect scams and stealing. Skill: Appraisal. Maybe an accompanying PrC.
Okay guys ideas for stances? Or should we work maneuvers first?
>>43582454
Chiseler.
It's a synonym for ambulance chasers and the like.
It also goes well with the the theme of their combat style: chipping away until they find a crack...
>>43582530
Or just Capitalist.
Besides the obvious usage, they capitalize on openings and such.
>>43582562
Opportunist?
Does anyone have any recommendation on character sheets to use? I've already looked at Dyslexic and default. They're okay, but I can't shake the feeling that I've seen some really good space-efficient shit when I used to be into all this before. Gonna be making a Magus but I guess anything that would work for Wizard works too. Not that spells are really a concern, that's 2nd page stuff.
>>43582517
A stance that redirects damage to your wealth? Instead of hitpoints lose money.
>>43581686
Armor is armor. Garment means clothing.
>>43582495
okay so it turns out I'm dumb and there's class features for handling the construct and undead immunity (even if constructs comes online at 13).
>>43582454
Stealing from LRGG I like Craven, we could also steal a lot of it's mechanics.
Merchant Lords can be kept for the Tradition. A group of merchants skilled in protecting their stores trying to create a conspiracy to dominate the worlds finances, hampered mostly because they keep competing amongst each other for market spaces or trying to become richer than the others.
Someone else should oversee this I'm getting silly.
>>43582603
It's a group of people who fight by the sheer power of their phat stax, it was silly from the word go.
>>43582603
Someone should make a brainstorming doc or something where we can put our ideas
Bankster from Dungeons of Dredmor might also be useful for inspiration
>>43582615
>>43582603
That shit is canon, though. The Prophets of Kalistrade and the Kalistocracy.
>>43582626
Oh fuck that's right. They want to own so much capital they basically buy the world or something right?
Sadly their PrC sucks serious balls. Some features might be salvaged though
>>43582590
The problem is WBL and the games expectancy of the characters having certain items at certain levels. The stance would work only on a campaign where you didn't use items. That is why the parrot suggested a wallet of virtual money here>>43582238
>>43582654
Something like that, yeah. Could also look to Abadar for inspiration, he's not actually stereotypically Jewish about it but he does encourage trade.
>>43582517
That "appraisal tanking" in some better written form, certainly.
Stances should revolve around up-sells, down-sells and cross-selling. The... Golden Parachute Discipline? Is heavily invested(sic) in allies and other initiators.
Up-sell abilities allow yourself and allies to expend resources for extra boosts depending on your initiator level and the maneuvers of course. Health, Animus, PPs, spell slots. Greater bypasses, stacking effective size-ups, recovery, etc.
Down-Sells are your counters and debuffs. by literally making an incoming attack 'cheaper' you reduce what it can do to you. Rarely can you negate; this discipline is about upgrading and downgrading, not stopping things cold.
Cross-Sells are the special abilities of the archetype or PRC: These are either abilities that allies must use and pay for (giving them new options, boosts, etc, but at their own expenditure and action economy) OR screw-you strikes against enemies that affect things not directly related to the target.
For example a high level cross-sell strike could dispel a target.... within 30ft of the one you actually struck. It's of course packed with bonuses/higher-chances for being an out-of-the-blue surprise in most circumstances.
>>43582656
True although I like the idea of tanking with the power of dosh. Virtual money is a possibility, yes.
What would we call that virtual money pool?
>>43582695
Bank?
>>43582695
Your stocks? 401k? Credit?
>>43582685
>>43582695
>>43582712
>>43582713
Can we call the iconic "Midas?"
>>43582695
Depending on the fluff, something like "Fate's Savings" could work.
>>43582656
I think the way to do it would be to have a pool of virtual cash that the person just gets from trading/swindling with people around them as they go, or just finding with their nose for cash. So this pool restores each day, but ONLY in places where there's actual money, so you can't restore it while in the forest.
Additionally, I think they'd still be able to spend their ACTUAL gold to do these things, so a member of this PrC who is ACTUALLY wealthy is better off than one without, but not the reverse.
Or allowing the reverse only for services or somesuch.
>>43581223
our dm just lets us reroll normally, and typically the "Results" are to be withheld if they can be, but its not world ending if it isn't.
as for overpowred. it really is not overpowered. to begin with, its an immediate action, which there are a lot of nice swift and immediates in pathfinder. second, its a 24 hour duration recharge, not "1/day" so resting doesn't do shit unless you spend a whole day.
the only extremely wonky thing about it is it works in a AMF but even then its not world ending at all.
>>43582712
>>43582713
I like Stocks and Bank. Although maybe something more elaborate?
Fiscal Hedge?
>>43582725
Heh. Sure. Midas Jeggare?
>>43582739
>
Additionally, I think they'd still be able to spend their ACTUAL gold to do these things, so a member of this PrC who is ACTUALLY wealthy is better off than one without, but not the reverse.
I like that.
>>43582615
In that case, two ideas for stances:
Low level (Maybe one of the two first level stances?)
Treasure Scent: Add initiator mod to Appraise and detect gold and valuable gems within 10 feet + 10 feet every eight initiator levels. maybe at high levels add initiator mod to Sense motive versus monetary scams or people trying to lie about their product, or maybe against all lies and Perception checks against Sleight of Hand. Or maybe allow you to use Appraise instead of those skills
More high level
Swin in Money: Gives you a Burrow speed, doubled when using on huge piles of money and precious items such as dragon hoards.
>>43582685
Could have something about modifying magic item bonuses on the fly. Change banes for different ones (your minotaur had a human bane axe? too bad, now it's dragonbane!)
>>43582765
Could give 'em some of those new Magic Item Mastery feats?
>>43582685
I like this concept a lot.
>>43582759
>Swim in Money
We Scrouge McDuck now. Classic.
>>43581743
Having veils/soulmelds keyed to slots makes sense from a design stance. Certain slots provide a general theme to the veils shaped there, like Feet being primarily mobility themed, and bind slots let you gate the access to more powerful abilities without having to note the level on every single entry. I think it'd be more of a mess and much harder to balance if you removed the slot associations.
So if I wanted to make a bunch of cheap masks that basically function as the hat of disguise, but for only one form, will there be a discount to the base price at all? Is having the party running around with a bunch of masks of various effects a-la Majora's Mask an absolutely retarded idea, or an absolutely brilliant idea?
Can I be the happy mask salesman? If I can,will I have to change alignments?
>>43581753
>not appraise the sun
You blew it anon
>>43582843Is there a reference I'm missing
>>43582850Dark Souls. Praise the Sun.
>>43582860I see.
\o/
>>43582836
Hats of disguise are already a ridiculously cheap item, aren't they?
>>43582850
It's from a game called Undertale, where the main character (pic related) is helps you steal paintings, which you appraise. One of them features the Son, which during an accident in translation, has created the meme 'Appraise the Sun'
>>43581752
Hey Gareth or Ssalarn, if you're still there, I might know a guy who's interested in doing a replacement Zealot pic, depending on when exactly you need it and what the pricing is.
If it's just one full body picture with no background it shouldn't take long, and he's seriously good.
Do you have more details on the time/budget constraints you're working with?
>>43582883
Sadly, I'm still playing that game and haven't gotten to that. I keep having to escape from /pfg/ whenever spoilers for it come up.
>>43582495
The Guru never had problems with dealing damage, he's always been able to damage undead with Gentle Touch at 2nd level and Constructs at 13th. Pretty reasonable considering how much free bonus damage it can deal.
I think Ssalarn mentioned that Arcforge was going to have some kind of akashic tie in, there's the Pharaoh class that's an akashic initiator, and Ssalarn mentioned wanting to do a series of themed individual releases.
>>43582892
I honestly cannot possibly get you an answer until at least Bossman: Yar Har Deedle De De Edition awakens.
>>43582906
[E]d4+Wis bonus damage isn't a lot; and it's more that a bunch of their non-damage class features are based on gentle touch (and some are worded to still not work against creatures immune to nonlethal damage, even though gentle touch still works at those levels)
>>43582739
>Additionally, I think they'd still be able to spend their ACTUAL gold to do these things, so a member of this PrC who is ACTUALLY wealthy is better off than one without, but not the reverse.
So some maneuvers have that spend money to augment, normal characters have to deal with the possibility of not having money for items later and the... Capitalist? Craven? Craven Capitalist? uhh alliteration... can be more free with augmentations since he has his Bank Account.
This Up Sell and Down Sell stuff is pretty great, Can you cook up some maneuvers? I'm afraid you're the only one with actual knowledge of economics and it's lingo right now, so without you the disc might end up being more about stealing and scamming than actual buying and selling and economics stuff.
Ah here's a high level strike or maybe counter:
Job offering: Impressed by an enemies performance you offer him a spot in your empire. This works as a short duration Dominate Person and after it ends you must pay the enemy a sum according to the price it would to hire him as a hireling for a day. If you refuse to pay or attack the creature it turns hostile again and receives a contract breaking bonus: the benefits of a Heal spell (or Harm if undead) and two buff spells of it's choice.
>>43582899
Thankfully that was a complete lie and no part of that post was true.
>>43582906
>Pharaoh
PLS
FEMALE ICONIC
>>43582980
Most the iconics are already female, though, why should they make another one just to pander to some autist's waifu fetish?
>>43582980
DSP dresses their iconics practically, though.
>>43582943
>a bunch of their non-damage class features are based on gentle touch (and some are worded to still not work against creatures immune to nonlethal damage
Such as? I'm looking at it now and nothing is leaping out at me. I'm curious because I've been playing a guru for a while now and it hasn't had any issues.
>>43582974
Well something like that Job offering is a must have. After all why dirty your own hands if you can instead let your money do the work?
>>43582836
>>43582880
Use Alter Self instead.
>>43583028
Really? If they can do this >>43580023 to a male iconic, one that should be wearing armor even, they can make some skimpy girls too. Equality goes both ways.This is jest, keep the iconics pratical and demand your money back on that guy, DSP
>>43583068
sineater philosophy's Devour Sin
>>43582880
>>43583086
normal hats of disguise are only 1,800, but run off the Disguise Self spell, while the greater variant runs off Alter Self and is 12,000. Both give auras of faint illusion, and allow you to turn into whatever you want as per the spell, within reason.
What I want is literally just to see if I can do "basically Majora's Mask transformation masks", where you put on the mask, it melds into your face, and you turn into X thing from the Alter Self/Monstrous Physique/Beast Shape/whatever polymorph spell's transformation list, and that's all that mask can do. I mean, if not, oh well, no harm done, just thought I'd check since I couldn't find anything by just skimming the magic item creation guidelines.I'm that faggot from a week or two ago who had a barbarian player ask me if my alchemist could make him an item to turn his barbarian into a sharkgirl without needing to constantly have it refreshed. Was looking for ways to make sure I spent as little gold on that when the time came as I possibly could.
>>43583028
You're damn straight we do. Some of us have standards.
>>43583087
Words cannot express how little warning or control the team got over this until we'd already seen it and it'd been paid for.
Reminder - pic related is the Harbinger iconic.
>>43583087
Nova isn't DSP anymore for a damn good reason.
>>43582919
Fair enough. The person in question has his interest piqued but isn't fully committed, so I'll keep watch on the threads to see what develops.
>>43583125
Looks less brooding than I imagined. A pleasent surprise actually.
Playing a level 4 cavalier, thinking of crossing into paladin for level 5. Are there any archetypes that will give me better combat or magic stuff instead of another mount? 1st party only plz
>>43583125
>>43583148
You can literally just choose to enhance your weapon instead, that's in the base class.
>>43583082
I'm also trying to think how to word one where you go You're Fired! and the monster gets confused because he doesn't even work for you. Maybe add that you can pay some quantity to the monster, based on it's HD, to hire him and then fire him, giving some penalties too because he's now sad he lost such a good job.
I haven't slept in 25 hours and counting.
Pro: Creativity +
Con: Silly ++ Rules Writing - -
>>43582695
Stock.
>>43583148
you don't need a mount. Divine Bond lets you choose the mount or a weapon buff.
(also you don't even need to worry about that until class level 5, which is character level 9 for you)
>>43583175
>You're Fired!
Is there also one that builds a wall that keeps creatures not of your race out?
>>43582974
I'm thinking up some maneuvers, but in about 20 minutes I'll be unable to post for the night (there be filters at work, unless you guys know an in-browser site proxy that lets you post).
