>>44640269
So, regarding the Demon Storyteller's Guide being out now, I have a question.
How does one actually PLAY Demon? From what I've read, it feels as if that game rewards passivity. The less you do as a Demon, the safer you are.
If you just do nothing, and live a normal life in your Cover, you won't have any trouble.

You can literally choose not to have any problems, and with the strength of the Covers, it's hard for trouble to come to you.

tl;dr, how do I make a plot in Demon that the PC's can't just say "nah, I'm staying home instead" to.

>>44640182

I think not. Dave said he doesn't like it when people copy OPP formatting. Its conjecture, but I think that means he doesn't like the book formatting and doesn't like seeing it in submissions.

>So one of the things Mage does to encourage people to actually be in the Orders is give a system based on the way you buy items and services with Resources in 2e CofD for "getting stuff out of your Order". Mechanics for requisitioning Tass, borrowing Imbued Items, getting time with Grimoires, access to Merits like Allies, Mentor, and Contacts, all running from your Order Status.

Thank fuck. The one thing that always confused me about Mage society was how their economy worked. Do any 1e books go into buying and trading of goods?

>>44640332
>Do any 1e books go into buying and trading of goods?

The only thing that borders it is the mage meeting ground/shop in Boston, where they sell Tass for $10 000 per unit.

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>>44640269
>his
I am incredibly triggered, you shitlord

But anyway, any suggestions for additional folders on Imgur? Afaik there is no image limit, so that's nice. I'm also thinking of separating non-moderns into pre-Middle ages (how do I title that?), Middle Ages and post-Middle ages. But then again post-Middle Ages would have both the 1600s and the 90s for example. So I dunno if it's a good idea to lump all of that into one folder but at the same time nobody wants to scroll through like 50 folders

>>44640332

It is a me-specific turnoff when reviewing people's submissions. I always just think that the time spent on hunting down the correct fonts could be better spent on tuning the sample.

I like our book formatting just fine. Well, with certain reservations. My only request to Mike (the Art Director and Layout guy) for Mage was to change the Level 3 Heading font, because I can't read the old one some of the time.

So are the Strix just extrusions from a Lower Depths with no Life into this one?

Okay so, I'm looking to run a WOD game set around Pacific Rim/Neon Genesis styled mecha and kaiju and after looking for a bit for rulesets I've ended up at JAEVA.

Can anyone tell me how it plays?

>>44640364

Isn't that a bit much? I thought Tass was pretty easy to come buy. Prime can make it and Hallows create it naturally. Then again, how much is 10, 000 dollars worth to a mage?

>>44640460
>Pacific Rim/Neon Genesis

I have no idea what you're asking for. Both are completely different types of mechs. Do you mean biological? Piloted in tandem? Patlabor style where hundreds of people are needed for maintenance or something mystical like Raideen?

Its like saying you want to play an RPG thats like DnD and FATE.

>>44640380
Put that stuff into a "Historial" folder.

As for other folders, maybe have one for "spellcasters"? Images where MAGIC IS HAPPENING and shit.

>>44640541
The specifics of the mechs isn't what I was asking about, it's a moot point in this conversation.

What I was wondering about was how the JAEVA game system plays. How does leveling, combat, the personality and insanity system work and does it work well?
You latched onto the complete wrong part of my post, I wanted to know how this ruleset handles.

>>44640574
I know you don't care about the mechs. Thats why you would come up with a shitty comparison like Pacific Rim and Eva. I was calling you out on it. The two are completely unlike each other and it doesn't paint a picture of what you're doing other than big robots.

>>44640599
there was literally no comparison going on, I just named them side by side because Pacific Rim and NGE are the two pieces of entertainment that JAEVA is named after and takes it's influences from for it's RP system.

>>44640380
Wolf and Mummy, maybe?

>>44640637
What do the Arisen actually think of Werewolves or the Spirits?

>>44640626
> I'm looking to run a WOD game set around Pacific Rim/Neon Genesis styled mecha and kaiju
> after looking for a bit for rulesets I've ended up at JAEVA.

Sounds like you came up with JAEVA after wanting to do something related to PacRim and Eva. In fact, you straight up said that was the case and now you're contradicting yourself.

I really hate people who speak about Pacific Rim and Evangelion as if they have anything to do with each other, especially because Pacific Rim was a homage to every mecha except Eva.

>>44640659
Dude, I just don't care about what you're arguing about.
I want to do a mecha vs. kaiju game, does JAEVA work well.

That was what I was asking, now will your autism cool down now or what?

>>44640431
>change the Level 3 Heading font

And please, say it isn't gold! That can be terribly hard to read too!

>>44640320
have players who are interesting

>>44640810
Very funny.
What I mean is, with high enough (such as starting) Cover, nothing will come after the Demon. For a Demon story to happen, there must be something that makes the characters go "Oh, this is interesting enough to risk THE FUCKING GOD-MACHINE noticing me.

>>44640810
>>44640320
to be less flippant, there are lots of social and political entanglements should have. The demands of their agencies, their families, their own ambitions, and of course the fact that they are constantly hunted by the God-Machine and its angels. Complacency should be rewarded with suffering, for the demon and the people they care about.

>>44640877
Agency sounds like it's worth avoiding, and shouldn't every Demon's ambition be to stay under the radar?
And if they aren't using their powers, but rather living under cover, how would the Angels ever find them?

>>44640937
Not necessarily, no. Some demons have very good reasons to not bother, not the least of which is the fact that by its very nature, their cover is just a facade. No matter how well they play their role they're still a misstep away from a compromise. Not to mention, demons have thoughts and emotions, I can't imagine someone who just escaped servitude is going to be content to just sorta...hide, their entire life.

>>44640937
Maybe the God Machine's already found you and is biding it's time, how would you know unless you check...

>>44640937
demons emit an aetheric resonance no matter their level of Cover. It's the reason many of them gravitate to cities, where the aether levels from G-M Infrastructure are already so thick that angels can't track an individual signature. Demons living in the wilderness tend to get hunted down.

Second, most demons aren't content to spend their entire lives hidden away like rats because the Machine is ever-present. You can hide if you like, but every day the Infrastructure gets a little closer to your home or your office, passerby on the street look at you with more scrutiny than is comfortable. Agencies often form because if demons don't take steps to protect one another, they'll be driven from their homes or worse, have their friends & family captured before the hunters come for them personally.

You need to think of demons as people who have more than just their lives at risk if you want a compelling game.

>>44641002
>I can't imagine someone who just escaped servitude is going to be content to just sorta...hide, their entire life.

Considering that one misstep could erase their very existence, hiding is the sensible thing to do.

>>44641055
>Second, most demons aren't content to spend their entire lives hidden away like rats because the Machine is ever-present. You can hide if you like, but every day the Infrastructure gets a little closer to your home or your office, passerby on the street look at you with more scrutiny than is comfortable. Agencies often form because if demons don't take steps to protect one another, they'll be driven from their homes or worse, have their friends & family captured before the hunters come for them personally.

Yeah.. But if they maintain their covers, the Machine won't ever notice them.

>>44641109
>Yeah.. But if they maintain their covers, the Machine won't ever notice them.

Oh really? You're that confident in your Covers? Eventually someone is gonna notice that you never poop.

>>44640320
>The less you do as a Demon, the safer you are
The opposite, really.
An inactive demon is a sitting duck, waiting to be shut down.
Demons need to know what is happening around them, in case the GM is doing something that could endanger them. That requires knowledge abour your surroundings and going outside. While Demons can hide well, Cover isn't safe enough to just trust it. You need to do stuff to reinforce it.There are active Demon hunters out there, and sooner or later one will find you even if you don't engage in risky behaviour.
To know enough to survive you'll also need friends and alliances, or you'll get cornered and hunted down.
Demons also need Aether, in case they need to defend themselves. To get Aether, you need to find an interact with Infrastructure.
You also need to build backup covers, in case you get found out and need to disappear. Which again requires going out and interacting with stuff.

Covers might seem enough at first, but the Demon that trusts it enough to not go out and find Aether, Allies, backup covers, and information, is a dead Demon.

>>44640856
>>44640877
Disclaimer: I haven't read or played Demon, so I can't talk about it specifically except in the broadest of terms.

First things first: The question is basically one of investment and buy-in. That does vary by player - I've had players who will jump on a coyly dangled plot hook at the drop of a hat, others who will just tag along with the rest of the group, and others who need a metaphorical anvil dropped on their head. My current group is wonderful once they get invested in the plot, but I need to grab them by the balls and make them get invested IC and OOC.

So, fundamentally, it's about finding the thing that will grab your players by the balls. Which is what you're asking about in the first place.

The first half is PC-side. As I understand it, if a Demon were content to run, hide, and be passive, they wouldn't have rebelled and fallen in the first place. Make your players think about and reason out their fall. Lock them in the basement if you have to. Make sure both they and you understand their character's motivations. If your player is invested in their character, that's your first hook into them. When in doubt, hit them in the backstory and hit them hard.
Knowing your players is also key. Know what sort of action and story your players like. If a player likes exploring the setting and figuring out weird shit the GM comes up with, they're going to be a lot easier to hook with Weird Shit Happening than someone who wants to play action espionage or whatever. Hook the latter guy with a James Bond plot.

(1/2)

>>44641109
>Yeah.. But if they maintain their covers, the Machine won't ever notice them.
And then your Cover dies of old Age or accident, or raises the wrong attention that risks compromising it.
At which point you are dead because you didn't go out to make backup covers.

>>44641212
The other part is plot-side. There's no story without conflict, a story starts when a situation becomes unsustainable, yadda yadda all that stock writing advice. Start a story with something that will have unacceptable consequences if not responded to. Knowing your characters' motivations helps here. If their covers are too tough to realistically break, break them anyway and make the story about finding out how that was possible. If your players are of the right type, give them a macguffin that's impossible or undesirable to ignore, can be used to great effect but only if they bite the hook and go out of their comfort zone, and will attract attention if they just leave it lying around.

>>44641220
>If their covers are too tough to realistically break, break them anyway and make the story about finding out how that was possible.

Addendum: This sort of thing is a sometimes food. It's a very versatile tool and you can get away with a lot of shit your players know to be impossible or unrealistic if you turn around and go "well shit, that's weird. Maybe we should look into that", assuming your players aren't the sort to cry That GM at the drop of a hat. But it shouldn't be overused, because if you break expectations all the time, your players won't have any expectations left to break (and especially if a twist of this sort fucks them over, they'll feel betrayed if you do it more than once in a blue moon - respect their character building choices).

>>44640640
Re werewolves, probably: Potentially very useful cultists if they can be bent to the cult's beliefs. There are some points of similarity between Iremite/Egyptian mythos and Uratha legends, which can probably be tugged on if the Arisen is canny (have a special spoiler: There is a Secondborn running around who has, as one of its names, Upuaut/Wepwawet the Opener of the Way; you'll have to wait til The Pack to find out who).

On the other hand, very dangerous threat if they're clashing with cult activities.

I imagine some Mummies have their own half-arsed theories about links between werewolves and animal-headed Shaniatu/deity depictions but the issue is that they likely don't have a great deal of spare time to investigate and tend to forget it after some Descents even if they *do* manage to figure any of it out.

Spirits, well, according to Dreams of Avarice the Arisen call Twilight 'Neter-Khertet' and spirits fall under the topic of demonology. It appears Arisen have no knowledge of the Shadow at all.

>>44641288
Coolio, good on ya Chris.

>>44640269
>And someone else linked the Demon Storyteller's Guide
>Links to the Book of the Deceived

>>44640431
>I always just think that the time spent on hunting down the correct fonts could be better spent on tuning the sample.
As the only person I know who does that kind of thing, I'll have you know I mostly do it as a sort of... thought exercise. Picking fonts is one of those things where I sort of turn my brain off and space out and can think about what I want to write, like vacuuming or cutting the grass.
Although I'll admit I do spend an inordinate amount of time doing it.

>I like our book formatting just fine.
But how can you find anything? I keep bouncing from place to place because I can't find anything. You keep having stuff like merits tucked away outside the Merit section and bits of rules hidden in fluff. Things you need when making a character are nowhere near the character creation section, so you can't be one hundred percent sure you got what you need if you don't read the entire book over again just to be sure.
I have no idea how something so bad has stuck around for so long. Not to mention the chapter titles that give no indication of what they are, and the sidebar headers that completely throw off the pdf bookmarking.
That the World of Darkness books have a table of contents now is something new and hopeful to a lot of people I've talked to.

>>44641564
It would be a miracle if I could get through one thread without cocking up the OP
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8lHuEeaOkFRM3BfNE80Y0dpSTQ/view?usp=docslist_api

>>44641109
>Considering that one misstep could erase their very existence, hiding is the sensible thing to do.
One of the stories in the Demon Fiction Anthology is someone trying to do this and finding out that it's harder than she thought. Also, a player character Demon is going to want to have goals, obviously.

>>44641055
Actually, the reason Demons live in cities is that they need Aether. Not for any particular reason, but it's nice to have some magic juice, and Demons outside the city don't get their magic juice.

>>44640380
I took a guess. I'll keep that in mind next time.

>>44640451
Yup

>>44643093
Well don't that beat all.

So I take it one getting buddy-buddy with a Cthonian or Shukansen would be horrible for errybodty errywhere.

>>44643245
A strix is bad for everybody. The destroy infrastructure by its mere being on sight. Worse yet they are extremely hard to kill being immune to all damage thats not aggravated damage, which it turns to bashing by the way. Further 1 strix can ruin a entire domain of vampires just think what a flock or parliament can do.

>>44643433
>The destroy infrastructure by its mere being on sight.
So the G-M wants nothing to do with the Lower Depths because of this.

>>44643903
Would make sense

>>44643903
I would say so. Angels have a kill on sight standing order, that no demon recalls ever having. The abyss is also go out of its way to attack the God Machine's stuff. And strix know some hidden lore about the GM things nothing should ever know.

So, I wonder. What happens when a Destroyer Angel and a Guardian Angel have directly conflicting orders? Do they duke it out to the death? Do they both find themselves unable to complete their order, Falling? Would the survivor of the conflict Fall even if they succeeded in their mission?

>>44640431
>>44640708
>I like our book formatting just fine. Well, with certain reservations. My only request to Mike (the Art Director and Layout guy) for Mage was to change the Level 3 Heading font, because I can't read the old one some of the time.
>And please, say it isn't gold! That can be terribly hard to read too

Mage 1e's color and font combinations were some of the hardest to read among all of WW's books. I hope we don't encounter the same problem again. It really detracted from the enjoyment of the substance of the book.

>>44644097
In this situation both Angels send an IMD.48935-C report. These are received by a Rank 6 angel called The Mediator. It assesses their orders, formulates a viable third option to complete both objectives and issues a conflict resolution memo varying both angel's orders to fit this new option.

If there is truly no resolution available it's escalated to the head of the God Machine's AR department, a Rank 9 angel simply called Bob who is empowered to crack space-time and create two conflicting timelines with one angel in each. These are maintained until the results of these orders no longer cause a direct conflict, at which point Bob re-integrates the two.

>>44644792

God Machine help the Angel who doesn't file his IMD.48935-C report in triplicate or forgets to sign and date it properly and get it notarized...

Hay what happens when a a werewolf bite off the limb of a ordo dracul vampire with the ability to develop stage 3 blood bond in one go? As it known when a vampire losses a limb it losses vitae as well. So does the werewolf develops a bloodbond.

>>44644896
It depends a bit on how you view Coils. Are they fundamental, eternal changes to a vampire's nature or simply practices and techniques to force the Curse in certain ways?

If the former, yes. If the latter, only a first-stage one, as the Dragon probably does not have the presence of mind to force the issue and use the Coil.

I'm making a Scion of Azazoth and one of her Relics is a yellow shawl (Referencing the Yellow Wallpaper and the King in Yellow)

What should it do?

>>44645445
*Azathoth

rip

>>44645047
It is the former a fundamental change in its nature. But tyhe question becomes how much vitae is in the arm. Or if the vampire can shift more vitae into his arm or have it leave his limb to save vitae.

>>44644010
I would hate to be the Seers if the G-M finds out about The Custodian.

>>44645486
Well, Draugrdom undoes the Coils...there is precedent in the Coils not being as eternal as the Dragon likes to make everyone believe.

>>44640320

It's always strange that someone asks this question. When you look at it from a pure espionage game angle, Demons are burnt agents, traitors, and defectors, always being hunted by an intelligence agency with enough time, money, and manpower to never stop looking for you. The Demon might not be the priority today, but they're always going to be on the list. No Cover is ever going to be perfect, and no amount of isolation is going to work when the God-Machine can watch you via the sky itself if need be. Taking a proactive stance on encroaching Infrastructure and keeping an eye out is the only real solution.

There's also the matter of Agenda that folks seem to forget. Integrators don't want to hide, they just want to stay low long enough until they're back with the Machine on their own terms, for example. None of the Agendas have anything to gain by staying passive. Even a Tempter that's chilling out in space with their Cult has to make sure that the God-Machine hasn't taken over some probe to watch them.

>>44645500
Just think about the chaos that would accrue if the GM decided that the seers where a threat to itself. Figuring that it can end all of reality.

>>44645590
True but they become something else. Their soul taken over by the beast. So i would say it more like the changes have been overridden to what the beast want.

>>44645445
>>44645464

Induce a horrible revelatory vision when thrown upon people's heads. The vision reveals an important truth about their life that had a tendency to shatter their very perception of self. It can be used to gain insight if one's will is strong enough (you're probably not going to reduce your fellow Scions into a gibbering wreck) but is most commonly used to as a last ditch effort to distract someone.

>>44644896
If the blood bond power requires the werewolf to ingest blood then no, unless the werewolf specifically chooses to eat part or all of the limb.

If blood bonds just require a taste then presumably the wolf is gonna have some blood in their mouth from the dismemberment.

I'd need to dig out Requiem to remind myself how blood bonding works to give a more accurate answer.

>>44645811
Ohhh I like it, thanks.

Reckon it gives access to any Purviews?

Also...is the truth something they deny about themselves or something they straight don't know?

IE, wrap it around the head of some housewife whose partner is cheating on her and she realizes her partner is only with her for inheritance or something

Why hasn't the deer got a coke can dick? It isn't canon otherwise

>>44645958

Mystery, Prophecy, and Illusion are what I'd suggest, with a heavy leaning on Mystery. As for the truth, it's whatever would cause the most damage to their sense of self, so it could be one or the other depending on the character. Some poor sucker might get a truth that's both.

Why do only some splats get free all-encompassing Unseen Sense?

>>44646220
>all-encompassing Unseen Sense
>all-encompassing
none of them do
Mages can give themselves mage sight, which is an arcanum-specific version of unseen sense.
Werewolves have unseen sense for spirits in twilight/the shadow
Geists have unseen sense for ghosts in twilight

Etc, none of them get ALL-ENCOMPASSING, just a free unseen sense for the thing their splat REVOLVES AROUND INTERACTING WITH

>>44645871
Don't werewolves eat the things they rip off with their mouth as as General basses?

>>44646303
>Mages have an innate “sixth sense” concerning all things supernatural. Their hair stands on end, goose bumps race along their arms, or a shiver runs up the spine

>Mortals can purchase a similar ability, the Unseen Sense Merit (p. 110 of the World of Darkness Rulebook), but it applies to only a single type of supernatural phenomenon, such as the presence of a ghost or a vampire. For mages, this sense applies to allsupernatural phenomena, alerting the willworker that the Invisible World is at hand, allowing him to cast magic to better investigate.

>>44646358
No. If they did then every human they bite would automatically be a harmony violation.

>>44646220

Because it makes sense for their splat.

>>44646358
No.

Whether or not werewolves eat things they tear away with their jaws is specifically a mechanic they can choose to do or not.

>>44646220

Only mages get something like an " all-encompassing Unseen Sense," and all it does is ping if something supernatural occurs nearby. It provides no information about the individual or ability or their location, and doesn't work against powers or incidents inherently stealthy (e.g., vampire Obfuscate).

Mage can then activate Mage Sight or cast a spell, and while generally effective in ferreting-out supernatural events and individuals, these powers have limitations. Moreover, these mage abilities are thematically appropriate and important for the Mage line, and usually results in mages poking their noses in unwelcome and very dangerous situations.

>>44646728
>Only mages get something like an " all-encompassing Unseen Sense,"

But why only them? Why should they get the toy nobody else does?

>>44646812

Because "I know things" is a common trope of wizards. How else are they going going to stick their nose into places where they don't belong and get burned by it?

>>44646812

Because they're the Detective splat.

What are Mastigos like in 2e?

>>44646812
Werewolves: Can whoop ass without huge XP investment
Mages: Can find shit out easily
Vampires: Can charm literally every NPC in the chronicle (in B&S its harder)

>>44644097
I see genuinely nothing wrong with two angels being forced to fight to the death due to conflicting agendas.

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One of my favorite bits in all of vampire splat stereotypes is the thought process of "if there's a problem talking can't solve and you can't fight it, just wait"

immortality hype

nosferatu master race

>>44639999
>Does this mean Seers can quickly achieve an effective merit of Resources 6+ with relative ease (apart from serving the very symbols of human oppression)?
I should hope so. "Live like one of the disgustingly wealthy" has always been one of the primary benefits of joining the Seers. It SHOULD be trivial for them to make good on that promised membership perk.

>>44647018
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxveHUKxwBU9bFFiM2RiQ0M2ZlE/edit

>>44647109
I'm still waiting for Thousand Years of Night to finally make good on that promise.

Vampire has always had a nasty problem with "You're immortal, but you're never going to actually get to use it for anything" dating all the way back to Vampire: the Masquerade where it was "sure you're TECHNICALLY immortal, but the world is ending this decade anyway so in practical terms you actually have a shorter lifespan than almost every human could ever expect."

>>44641920
>I keep bouncing from place to place because I can't find anything. You keep having stuff like merits tucked away outside the Merit section and bits of rules hidden in fluff. Things you need when making a character are nowhere near the character creation section, so you can't be one hundred percent sure you got what you need if you don't read the entire book over again just to be sure.

I feel you there. When I want to look up and clarify a mechanic, I just want the damn rules.
Hell, I didn't even know that VtR 2e had ghoul-specific merits until a month or two ago, because they're jammed all the way back in the book's ass.

>>44646812
Every splat gets a toy nobody else does. Vampires get to make people their mindslaves for free as an inborn part of their splat. They also get regeneration and damage downgrading. Werewolves get shapeshifting (which is absurdly good now in 2e), regeneration (which is also absurdly good now in 2e), and the ability to hop back and forth between the material and the shadow via a locus. Prometheans are tough as all fuck, fucking refuse to go down, and get healed by electricity. Changelings get near-perfect disguises, Pledgecrafting, and dreamfuckery. Sin-Eaters get a whole ton of template-granted effects.

"Get pinged by all of the different kinds of weird shit" is the ONLY template-based toy Mages got in 1e. Also "can heal, badly, with Mana", I guess.

>>44647299
>Wizards don't get class features

Sure, what a hardship that turned out to be

>>44640431
>My only request to Mike (the Art Director and Layout guy) for Mage was to change the Level 3 Heading font, because I can't read the old one some of the time.
Please tell me Mage 2e Core is going to have a more coherent and sensible layout than Vampire 2e and Werewolf 2e did.

All the info being THERE, but buried where no-one could fucking find anything when they needed to, was one of the major reasons why everyone says Mage 1e had a terrible corebook.

If any gameline needs an improved corebook it's Mage.

>>44641920
>That the World of Darkness books have a table of contents now is something new and hopeful to a lot of people I've talked to.
That's because clicking the hyperlinks embedded in the Table of Contents is the only way to fucking find anything in the 2e corebooks.

I pity the people who bought physical copies of the books expecting to actually use them instead of just to look pretty on a shelf.

>>44647340
I didn't say Mages were underpowered, I meant that anon complaining that Mages got a template-based power is absurd considering everyone else gets them too, and Mages actually have the fewest.

That was not a new thing Mage invented.

>>44639906
Damn it Dave, at least let me buy the corebook before you start convincing me I'll be missing out if I don't buy Signs of Sorcery.

>>44647235
You mean... the ghoul merits are in the appendix all about ghouls?

How weird.

Where'd that anon talking about the Legacy of Mages who grafted a Beasts Horror into their soul get to? because I have a funny idea for the implications of this. After the person has been subjected to the horrible soul-grafting, then you are left with a Mage who has a twisting gnashing mass of teeth knotted into their Pattern and a hungry Beast wondering where their quasireal dentures went.

>>44647231
In practical terms, encouraging PCs to deal with antagonists by leaving and ignoring them doesn't help STs.

>>44646303
No, Mages have Unseen Sense for literally anything. They're the only major splat that has this, though, as their schtick is knowing about and poking things. I guess you could say Proximus do as well.

There's also the Cambion, but they ONLY have Unseen Sense, and their Unseen Sense is basically uncomfortably becoming a walking corpse in the presence of anything supernatural. They can also see through the mien, and presumably see a Promethean's Disfigurements. If you're wanting to be extra shitty to them, they could probably see a Beast's true self and see through the Cover.
Most of them end up dead pretty fast.

>Etc, none of them get ALL-ENCOMPASSING, just a free unseen sense for the thing their splat REVOLVES AROUND INTERACTING WITH
Almost no one actually gets Unseen Sense. Only Mage's "everything" version and Sin-eaters get a Ghost one. You could flick Disciplines on and off all you want right behind a vampire's ear and they'd be none the wiser.

>>44646812
Why do only vampires get the ability to make you love them by shoving bodily fluids down people's throats? Why do only werewolves get to shapeshift for free? How come Prometheans are the only ones who make everyone angry by being around them?

>>44644097
>>44647091
Why would they have conflicting orders? That's more of a Principle thing.

>>44647894
>Why do only vampires get the ability to make you love them by shoving bodily fluids down people's throats?

Actually Inferno Demons get that too

>>44647235
To be fair that's in the section labeled "Ghouls and the Living" or something like that.

I'm talking more about Esoteric Armoury not being in the Merits section.

>>44647402
I personally prefer to fan out the bookmarks and try to find the right section. It's still frustrating, though. I had to keep jumping around to help create my Pack's totem the other night. After the third page number I gave them, I said fuck it and basically did the mechanics on my own and assigned them one page to look at.

>>44647925
I know, I had that Vestment. It was great.
But I meant as a default template ability. I'm sure a Mage or some kind of Werewolf power could do that, too.

>>44646930
>>44647183

Did DavidH's Advanced Resources Merit from the Beast draft make it into Mage 2e? It would perfect for Seers.

Resources 5 really caps player wealth at far too low a level in today's world of billionaires, particularly for splats who can accumulate wealth with relative ease, such as vampires and mages (Seer and Pentacle).

>>44648036
No. Seers get to add their Status to their Resources.

>>44647894
>Why would they have conflicting orders?

Why wouldn't they?

Lets assume the God Machine is perfect and infallible for a moment, in the base scenario. Let us assume its plots always make sense.

Now let us assume this holds true only up until demons and other things outside its plans take effect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but angels don't seem to always have a perfect hive mind thing going on.

Through direct or indirect hiccups like demons, it strikes me as fully plausible that one timetable or another may be disrupted, and someone may be assigned to die before their time, or that an angel that was supposed to switch targets does not receive the memo.

I may be off base, but its definitely my impression that angels are not perfectly synched in real time. An angel whose job it is to protect a building likely cares nothing that down the street a destroyer angel and a demon are battling, his job is to protect the building.

They don't question their duty, they don't try to interpret it, they just carry it out at any cost. This leads to wastes and ineffeciencies since emotions are actually a key part of problem solving, but they just don't give a damn.

They get missions, the missions don't always make sense, and even in the best case scenario loyal angels are put to death all the time. This is merely a more exciting way.

Also if the God Machine thought either had a small chance of rebellion, it may be performing a stress test to see, etc.

>>44648063

So, Mage 2e effectively removed the cap on the Resources Merit, and it now goes to 10?

I'm curious if the Seer section will include an explanation for Resources 6-10.

>>44648186
>So, Mage 2e effectively removed the cap on the Resources Merit, and it now goes to 10?
We'll know when M2e is released.

>>44646930

Dave, any chance you do a blog update on how mages interact with the Investigation rules presented in the CofD book? Are they in Signs of Sorcery?

>>44647894
>Why would they have conflicting orders? That's more of a Principle thing.

Demon: the Descent makes several references to angels falling because their missions conflicted with the missions of other angels.

>>44648386
Which is why the God Machine went to the effort of spawning Bob

>>44648329
He mentioned this during the Reddit AMA.

He's unwilling to make any official rules regarding it without decent playtesting, so they're not going into the core. They may go into Signs of Sorcery.

>>44648329

The new Investigation mechanics in the CofD corebook coming out after Mage was basically finished is a real bummer.

>>44648403
Ah, Bob, where would we be without him?

>>44648414
thanks, must've missed this particular answer.

I stand 100% in support of his thorough playtesting. But I also have to agree that it's a real bummer that the rules came out after mage was finished

I have an idea for an alternative setting. The Spirits rule over mankind out of the shadows. Hunter formed a resistance movement to fight against it.

Now I wonder, would Spirits at all subtle enough for that?

Does anyone have the searchable copy of the Prince's Primer? Need a bit of lore for my chronicle and the one in the mega is a scan.

>>44648132
As far as I'm aware, Angels don't "report back to base" or get memos. The God-Machine assigns them a task, but they do that task. But the God-Machine doesn't seem the type to send Angels on competing tasks, the way that the Principle will have one Qashmal tell a throng to kill someone and another Qashmal tells a throng to save that same person. If a Hunter Angel and a Demon start fighting near a Guardian's building, chances are the Guardian will help the Angel, not fight it.

My interpretation of the God-Machine at least is not that it's wacky random, but that it's buggy and broken, which is why Angels can fall in the first place. The Machine knows what it's doing, but it's bad at doing it. Like I said, it's the Principle that's just insane.

You're more likely to get an Angel fight scenario if you throw an Exile into the mix.

>>44648386
As far as I recall, that's more a Guardian being told their time is up and watching the Sword step in and deciding they're going to keep guarding.
But maybe I'm wrong. It's been over a year since I actually read Demon.

>>44648403
>>44648452
Bob?

>>44648558
>Bob?

>>44644097
>>44644792
>>44644883

>>44647109
While true to a degree, this is significantly less so in the Requiem setting. In Masquerade, vampires who got blood just kept on going, and guys who were buddies with Jesus and Caesar were walking around just like this. In Requiem, though, because of the "Blood Potency inevitably goes up -> feeding restrictions inevitably tighten -> there's no choice but to go into Torpor -> the Fog of Ages gets you in Torpor" cycle, it's actually very rare to see anyone over 200 and vampires are a lot more pressed for time. Yes, you could go into Torpor hoping that in the intervening centuries your rival would die, but you're just as likely to miss on whatever you were rivaling for in the first place like this.

>>44648558
>Bob?
Rank 9 Angel created by the G-M to separate Angels with conflicting programming into hypothetical timelines to see which one has the most far reaching importance in relation to the event in question.

>>44648558
>The God-Machine assigns them a task, but they do that task.

That's what I mean by memos.

The GM MIGHT not give competing orders. However, if someone becomes a demon or someone otherwise fucks up the great plan, the order of operations may be fucked up and angels may come into conflict.

> If a Hunter Angel and a Demon start fighting near a Guardian's building, chances are the Guardian will help the Angel, not fight it.

What I mean is that I don't think angels do anything other than what is in their orders typically. Due to their objective minded obedience, angels are likely to pursue illogical instructions, or instructions that have become illogical, unto their destruction. They just plain don't care. Their uncaring intellectualism may cause them to come off as smug, superior alien beings, but never questioning orders and not caring about the greater plan will likely result in more than a few angel on angel battles.

Of course he's more likely to help the Hunter Angel, but he's more likely to do nothing. I don't think angels have personal beefs with demons, just that they are often tasked with destroying them and are aware demons may interfere with their plans.

Especially if they don't get constant reinforcement from the God Machine and feedback on how to interpret their mission. I'm not 100% clear on this element but that's my interpretation.

>>44647669
>>44648013
I admit it makes it's own sense, but I'd have drastically preferred that they be with the other merits, and MAYBE have something like a small sidebar in the ghoul section reminding the reader that there are merits unique to ghouls. I mean the Merits section even gives the vanilla/human/non-vamp merits their own little heading.

When you want to look at all your potential choices for character creation, and you see an entire section labeled "Merits", you don't expect some of them to be in a different part of the book because of their context. It'd be like sticking "Lineage" in the chapter about Kindred society, or the "Kindred Fighting" style merits in the "Combat" section.

>>44648852
Or even just a "You can also play ghouls - rules for playing ghoul characters, including ghoul-specific character creation options, are found in Appendix Whatever".

>>44648617
they got rid of fog of ages in Requiem 2E, for the better imo.

What protocol would the God-Machine have if it received data from it's Angels that an Idigam of Infrastructure was attempting to form?

>>44648926
>>44648852
I think they do mention that. Although in retrospect I'm trying to remember if there was anything mentioning ghouls until the appendix... then again I'll admit I jump around, I don't read cover to cover.

>>44649015
Depends on how you're looking at it. It's original purpose was to keep the origin of vampires a mystery (rather than wrap everything so tightly in the Cain/Nod/Enoch/Antedelluvians metaplot no-one can move a muscle) and give the players a greater sense of agency by at least putting some kind of stop on ancient uber-powerful vampires ALWAYS being behind EVERYTHING. I mean, it's part of the theme and all and it's fine and desirable every once in a while, but when the players start asking themselves why they're even needed there if everything happens behind the stages anyway (and, of course, everyone's such a master planner that "it would've happened with or without you, muhahaha") you know that you've gone too far.

I haven't read Requiem 2E. What do they replace it with? Or do they just not to bother to explain it and leave you to wonder why all those 2000 year old Methuselahs aren't ruling the Earth? (really annoyed me that they removed any reference to what happens to mating werewolves from Forsaken 2E... yes, I understand that none of the current solutions was ideal because Metis attracted the worst kind of players and the Ghost Child system raised all sorts of unfortunate implications, but now you're left to deal with why there aren't way more werewolves around than there are, or why they bother with human society rather than creating their own fucking nations).

>>44649160
Well Werewolf 2e ditched "werewolves are experiencing a population shortage" entirely...

Werewolves bother with human society instead of fucking off and creating their own fucking nations because that does horrible things to your Harmony score. Werewolves need to live among the Herd in order to not swing off toward Spirit.

At least in theory, as the actual mechanics for when you gain and lose Harmony are kind of crap.

>>44649139
I think they were mentioned in the part where it talks about blood bonds. Doesn't negate the counter-intuitiveness of having the merits separate from the other merits.

>>44649160
Even if you can find a suitable source of vamp blood, at BP 10 you still start feeling the urge to go into torpor, and it keeps getting stronger. Assuming you stay conked out until you hit BP 1, we're talking periods of about 200 years for things to change and for you to lose your power base. ESPECIALLY in the modern era, with the industrial revolution and the digital era speeding things up.

>>44648617
>>44649015
Ultimately I'm glad it's gone, but I did like how it reinforced the "ancient mysteries" angle, and how nobody knew for certain which (if any) of the vampire origin myths were true.

>>44649160
>Metis attracted the worst kind of players and the Ghost Child system raised all sorts of unfortunate implications
Elaborate for a werewolf rookie?

>>44649160
There was never a *good* explanation for why the world isn't ruled by 2000 year methuselahs. There was just the theory put forth that vampires get hit by the idiot ball and after a certain point universally find it worse to be blood bonded than to enter torpor and lose almost all their powers. Authentically suicidal levels of distrust -- even in minions you can groom and mindbreak with practiced care.

>>44647109
Vampires can't just wait out all their problems...
Sure, some of them are temporary, but most of the time there's the issue of consolidating power for the future, and if you don't get that power now someone else will have doubled it in a couple decades.

>>44649160
The thing about Fog of Ages is that you don't really need it to explain why vampires aren't all BP 10 and puppeting everything. Who're the first vampires? Doesn't matter, they're dead. Shit, half of them probably died slipping on ice. Snapped their necks and Final Deathed.

>now you're left to deal with why there aren't way more werewolves around than there are
Because that's not how it works? You can fuck werewolves all day and you'll be happy if your kids are Wolfblooded, and that's more a matter of gambler's fallacy and confirmation bias than it is werewolf genetics. Meanwhile Johnny and Jane Regular give birth to a mudblood.
>or why they bother with human society rather than creating their own fucking nations
Because Werewolves are still people? Plus, humanity creates and is influenced by Spirits. Since that's the main deal with Forsaken (as opposed to fighting the Wyrm from your Waco compound) you need to be where the Spirits are. Like... around people. Plus it's a part of the Oath of the Moon anyway. "Cleave" doesn't mean "fuck".
Hell, I'm not even sure what reason there would be for fucking off and forming your own little cults in Forsaken.

>>44649307
I honestly don't have a problem with Ghouls and Wolfblooded being shoved in the back. No sense complicating Vampire with "And here are some stuff you can't use if you're playing a vampire". And like I said, there are still ancient mysteries in that no one from 6000 years ago is still going to be alive.

>>44649375
That, or the Strix got them.

>>44649231

It's one of the changes I like the most in 2e's tone. Add in the way "Pack" has expanded to include wolfblooded and human allies/mooks, too. Makes things feel way more personal and intense.

>>44649404
>The thing about Fog of Ages is that you don't really need it to explain why vampires aren't all BP 10 and puppeting everything. Who're the first vampires? Doesn't matter, they're dead. Shit, half of them probably died slipping on ice. Snapped their necks and Final Deathed.
It may not matter to the players or the gameplay, but given the far-reaching theological and cosmological implications of some of the backstories, you'd think SOMEONE would bother to check.

>>44649406
Strix, hunters, rival vampires, whatever are a fine explanation, I don't mind any of them. So is them being predisposed towards conking out I suppose, although B&S humanity is so difficult to deal with that I would no longer desire to see that explanation be in effect. I just don't want to be insulted by the idea that 99% of vampires can't figure out how to get enough vampire blood.

>>44649375

Blood potency making you unstable and dangerous in the long run is a big one. Hard to be in charge when you have to take a nap and wake up with blood potency 1 again.

>>44649406
Or maybe if they get old enough they turn into Strix.

>>44649358
Werewolf daddy + werewolf mommy = mutant inbred offspring tainted by the Wyrm. If you read more about it, it just gets worse, in the "why did the writers care about werewolf sex in the first place?" way.

>>44646660
Unless they're in the throes of Death Rage, in which case wether they spit or swallow is at ST discretion, right?

>>44649573
>Werewolf daddy + werewolf mommy = mutant inbred offspring tainted by the Wyrm. If you read more about it, it just gets worse, in the "why did the writers care about werewolf sex in the first place?" way.
They also used a name for an actual real-world recognized racial minority for their "deformed incest-baby abominations-against-nature" group, just as the icing on the cake.

>>44649358

For WtF, two Uratha fucking leads to a horrible not-pregnancy that results in a blood miscarriage and the creation of an angry spirit-monster wolf thing. They're a major class of antagonists and a real good reason not to engage in the spirit-incest that dating your hot Uratha packmate would be.

Way less fucked up than the whole metis thing in WtA, IMO.

>>44646660
Is eating the things required for automatic Agg damage?

>>44649457
Like I said. They're all dead.

>>44649473
Difficult to deal with in what way?
Also, getting a bunch of vampire blood is pretty difficult, and any way to make it easier still makes you vulnerable.

>>44649358
Metis were from Apocalypse. In Apocalypse, if two Werewolves had a baby, they made a Metis. They were deformed Werewolves that were always in war form (and WtA let you sit around in warform eating cheetos). They were the Thin Bloods of Apocalypse, in that they were a sign of the end times and disgusting and all that junk. Despite there really not being any reason for other Werewolves to hate them in the first place. I think maybe they were sterile?

They got rid of breed forms (Homid, Metis, and Lupus, the man, werewolf, and regular wolf) but kept the "thou shalt not fuck the party members", so Forsaken 1e instead had the Unihar, or Ghost Child. If two Werewolves had sex, one of them would give birth to a stillborn bunch of blood and nothing in the physical and a horrible monster in the Shadow that was immune to Gifts and dedicated to murdering both of it's parents. People noticed several problems with this, among which are the fact that it happens even if you're raped, and maybe even to gay werewolves, and most importantly it adds fuck all to the game.

Forsaken 2e has realized that it doesn't need Apocalypse's weird sexual baggage, so they got rid of the whole stipulation against sexual relations in the first place, and there are even pregnancy rules in the ST section.

>>44649573
>"why did the writers care about werewolf sex in the first place?"
This has always been my biggest question. "Why bother?" People tell me it's to make the game less furry, but honestly... furries are your demographic, and the whole stipulation is even weirder than just not mentioning it at all. I guess partly it makes sense to keep people from making metis, but then why bother having metis in the first place? Why make it weird with this whole SUPER INCEST vibe?

>>44640559
>Put that stuff into a "Historial" folder.
You mean dump everything non-modern into one? Or do you mean the pre-Middle Ages stuff? I am going to assume that the latter

As for mages, I don't have that many, I'll upload what little I have and in the future will be on the lookout for some modern magic. I'll copy some changelings into that folder, as some portraits there are of spellcasters

>>44640637
Don't actually have any werewolves or mummies. I'll start gathering the pics in the future. Do WoD Mummies look like the stereotypical mummies?

>>44649729
People decided it was fucked up because they decided after reading it that it was supposed to be used as the result of werewolf-on-werewolf rape and "WHY IS THIS SPIRIT MURDER BABY BEING USED TO PUNISH THE MOTHER, SHE'S THE VICTIM HERE", which was clearly not its intended purpose at all.

>>44649756
>Like I said. They're all dead.
Do you honestly not understand the potential impact of someone being able to do something like OBJECTIVELY PROVE OR DISPROVE THE JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN CREATION MYTH?

>>44649820
Well considering scientists have already done that and the only real argument is the Omphalos Hypothesis...

D E A D
E
A
D

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>>44649799
>"...was supposed to be used as the result of werewolf-on-werewolf rape..."
>"...which was clearly not its intended purpose at all"
>Implying it had a purpose

>>44649799
It also happens to gay werewolves (because, naturally, when you create a law within the setting meant to enforce the tragic solitude of werewolf existence you are going to get some asshole players going "Nah-nah-nah, I'll just be gay and happy"), which implies some fucked up mpreg shit the developers only realized too late they got into.

Metis were an issue because, as someone else noted, they tended to attract the worst kind of CWoD. They combined tragic origins, persecution drama, special snowflaking and furryness into one abominable Mary Sue package. It was like an invitation for all those fat goth chicks back in the 90's to get their attention whore on.

>>44649799

I mean, it IS fucked up, but this is a horror game. Doing shit like that is a good way to end up a bugfucking shiteating 0 harmony thing that most uratha wouldn't piss on if it were on fire, so it's not like the game is actively pushing rape or something.

>>44649885
It was supposed to evoke cosmic punishment for deciding you're going to taste the forbidden fruit even when you're not supposed to.

People fucking people they aren't supposed to and then getting fucked over because of it is all over the place in stories.

>>44649849
>scientists have already done that
That's not how scientific theories work. They're valid until they're disproven, and they can ALWAYS be disproven. Such as by someone who was alive back then, met the guys, and saw it happening.

Still no Demon STG. Ah well

>>44649898
Pure had no such compunctions about their harmony.

And I don't think it was so much "we don't want to portray rape" as much as it was, "we did not at all consider the unfortunate implications of this setting detail and think the game would be better off without it," and they were right!

>>44649231
>At least in theory, as the actual mechanics for when you gain and lose Harmony are kind of crap.

>when ur players stay at 7 Harmony forever because they keep passing their resolve+composure checks for murdering dudes

>>44649944
It's been posted multiple times today

What sort of asshole waits for a book to drop but doesn't monitor the general 24/7?

You're like the people complaining that they didn't have Exalted 3e despite it being linked for a full 27 minutes before being deleted.

>>44649799
What purpose did it serve?
And, no, no one thought that's what it WAS supposed to be used for, that's just one thing that will happen.
>>44649898
It's the wrong kind of fucked up. It's dumb, limits choices without adding anything, and serves no purpose. Forsaken doesn't have that whole "werewolves are dying and need to breed... but also are too incesty to not have fucked up babies with each other". Unihar don't need to exist. At all.

>>44649937
But why is that fruit forbidden in the first place? Give me one reason it should be. Nevermind that as is the unfortunate implication, you get punished even if it wasn't your decision to eat that forbidden fruit, so it doesn't even serve THAT purpose well.

>>44649938
"They're lying". "They got their memories rewritten".
If geological evidence doesn't convince people, why would someone saying they've spoken to Jesus? People say they've spoken to Jesus all the time.

>>44650002

I guess so. I thought it was appropriately horrific, but I don't really see any huge loss in removing it. Not like there isn't enough horrific spirit shit floating around already.

>>44649937
Then why not make it spirits, or claimed, or anything that would naturally sound forbidden?

>>44649944
???
>>44641934

>>44650011
Oh golly, a full 27 minutes? Hope you didn't need to shit.

>>44649938
>ancient vampyr confirms that all Abrahamic religions were the work of a great and terrible machine priming humanity for accepting its commands

>>44649938
>>44650042
You're missing the point. It's not about whether or not old vampires can or cannot prove the existence of God/Adam/Cain in-universe, it's the fact that the metaplot would have to acknowledge them.

>>44650002
>when ur players stay at 7 Harmony forever because they keep passing their resolve+composure checks for murdering dudes
This has been my experience. Apparently Werewolf doesn't like that I wanted to have a high Willpower score.

>>44650086
Back in the day people knew the meaning of anticipation.

Now it's societies fault when you put human reactions ahead of insane obsession

>>44650086

When you don't pay for shit it's hard for anybody to care when you're complaining about how you aren't getting it. Get a job, kid.

>>44650042
>What purpose did it serve?
Tragic intra-party romances, mostly. Also I guess preventing ERP.

>>44650086
It takes you a full half-hour to shit?

I've had lifelong constipation problems and it still only takes half that long for me at worst.

You may want to see a doctor.

>>44650138

Speaking from experience, wolfblooded (in Forsaken) and kinfolk (in Apocalypse) have always been the designated ERP characters.

>>44650116
and it sucks because i actually really like the way harmony is supposed to work but it's just...unlikely that you'll be shifting as frequently as the game would like you to.

>>44650201

I also find the rolling part of CofD morality kinda clunky. I might houserule something together that has you rolling dice based on the severity to accumulate harmony loss rather than making it a resolve roll.

>>44650002
It's not even the unfortunate implications about rape that are the problem. Like... the Unihar serves zero purpose, and is just a replacement for the metis because of a holdover from Apocalypse.

>>44650050
It's horrific, sure, but it's also dumb and has no reason to exist. There's no reason for werewolves to fuck each other to begin with, so no one's actually going to do it when the consequences are so high. No game is ever going to deal with an Unihar... UNLESS there's rape.
More than that, the Unihar is a holdover from a different game with different rules. It doesn't need to exist because this isn't Apocalypse.

>>44650108
And as I keep saying "phenomenally old vampires are fucking dead". Just because theoretically you CAN live to be a billion doesn't mean you will. That cro-magnon vampire? Yeah, he didn't last forever. He got himself killed, just like all those "immortal" lobsters and jellyfish.

>>44650138
As Chris said in one of these threads, human beings can get tragic romance without the help of forced drama or murderous stillbirth.

>>44650201
Chris has suggested using more Breaks and basically treating it as "do you shirk werewolfing or shirk life?"

There's something SOMEWHERE about personal Harmony breaks, but that's like one sentence in the entire book.

>>44650253
>As Chris said in one of these threads, human beings can get tragic romance without the help of forced drama or murderous stillbirth.
I didn't say it worked WELL, I was just answering the question of what the purpose was supposed to be.

White Wolf has always been pretty clumsy with that kind of thing.

>>44650253
>Like... the Unihar serves zero purpose
Its purpose is to be a horrible gribbly that's specifically good at killing vampires and is gunning specifically for you because You Done Fucked Up.

>>44650250
IIRC that's how the pool for Humanity loss in Requiem works. You get x dice based on how severe the breaking point is, with the most severe penalties giving you just a single die to work with.

>>44650253
>personal Harmony breaks

Yeah, the book explicates that the list of Harmony breaking points is not exhaustive and that the ST is free to call for a Harmony breaking point whenever it seems appropriate, I should probably be exercising that power a little more liberally.

>>44650253

I had a unihar show up in a game I ran, way back when 1e had come out. The game featured a pair of ghost wolves that were sometimes-allies of the pack - omega wolf sorts. They fell in love, fucked, and then the unihar was shitting all over the lives of my PC's and their allies. Made for one of the better stories I ran in that one, and resulted in my players getting a bit more hardcore about the laws.

BUT with all that said, yeah, sure, their existence brings up all kinds of weird baggage. So whatever, nixing them doesn't bug me.

>>44649063
Try and covertly manouver Uratha packs and/or mage cabals into a confrontation with the offending Idigam. If that fails, set up an occult matrix to summon an appropriately high Rank Angel to neutralize it instead.

>>44650337
Yeah, but you Done Fucked Up because of arbitrary setting bullshit that adds nothing to the game.
Also you mean Werewolves.

>>44650351
I plan to exercise it very liberally during my upcoming game.

>>44649756
>Difficult to deal with in what way?

What do you mean what way? Check out the list, its incredibly broad and unpredictable what can leech out all your humanity.

>>44650429
It's... not unpredictable at all. In fact, it gives a list. Lists are the opposite of unpredictability.
If you can't figure out what the hierarchy of sins is... it's things that make you more of a monster.

>>44650429
>>44650496
It's also things that remind you that you're no longer really human, such as surviving an injury that would have killed a mortal, or outliving everyone you knew when you were alive.

>>44650496

> it's things that make you more of a monster.

What? No, it includes not being around people, being around people, using powers, being hurt, having your feelings hurt, hurting people (not a bad one), being antisocial, and being social.

If you have the paper printed out as you roleplay and carefully and cautiously metagame you can probably avoid it, though a game where falling to the beast can be caused by seeing someone eat food and suggests expanding the list to the ST probably is going to encourage a lot of STs to add similarly arbitrary things to it.

I largely prefer B&S but the humanity chart is probably the most perplexing and inconsistent hierarchy of sins from a WoD product thus far.

>>44650557
Which wouldn't be a problem if it didn't make you hang out with people. At least B&S's take on humanity is *humorous* and that's probably what they were going for, and is a new joke to replace Predator's Taint.

>>44650622
>>44650661
How do you plan to keep in touch with your humanity if you don't spend any time amongst, well, humanity?

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>>44650686
If observing the most basic human behaviors implode your humanity, then it makes me question how helpful being around humans is for humanity.

In the best case scenario, they should have guidelines for introverted vampires being the ones that are so socially retarded that seeing someone eat a burger shreds their soul, while it being extroverted vampires who are damaged by being away from humanity. Having it be both ways just disrupts whatever tone they're trying to set.

Not wanting the peasants to eat around them strikes me as more of an idiosyncratic phobia of a single out of touch vampire, not a blanket vampire rule.

>>44650404
Yes, I meant werewolves.

And I think there's merit to the unihar as a concept, but the specific You Done Fucked Up doesn't have to be related to yiffing, no.

>>44650810
That's because vampires can't eat food. Seeing someone eat in front of you is going to remind you that you can't, which is a case of realizing/being reminded of >>44650557. It's angsty, but it's not inconsistent.

And if some of the breaking points keep popping up, the player can always voluntarily take a ban to immunize themselves against it in the future.

>>44650810

Imagine giving up your favorite food. You can still see that steak. You can still smell it. You can put it in your mouth and chew it and feel the juices spurt all over your tongue. You remember how good it felt to hang out with your friends and grill them. How satisfying a plate left with nothing but blood and gristle was.

But now all those things are ash. The steak in your mouth tastes like dirt and is nothing compared to sinking your teeth into ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AND DRINKING THEIR BLOOD. That steak? Swallow it and you'll be shitting blood. It is poison. It is a bad memory. It is a reminder of when your greatest pleasures in the world were something other than the drug that is the blood of human beings.

>>44650351
>IIRC that's how the pool for Humanity loss in Requiem works. You get x dice based on how severe the breaking point is, with the most severe penalties giving you just a single die to work with.
Yeah, Humanity in 2e Vampire works more like Morality, Humanity, Harmony etc. from 1e - dicepools are based on the severity of the sin, you drop one point if you fail, and you don't want to drop. DaveB has claimed Wisdom works similarly.

Integrity and Harmony are the odd stats out, as there the dicepool is always Willpower (sometimes with modifiers).

One of the problems with Harmony is that Willpower is almost always larger than the dicepools assigned to the other morality ladders, even for average Willpower scores compared to minor sins, and you WANT to fail those Willpower rolls, at least at the beginning of the game.

>>44650810
Humanity is a measure of how well you can lie to yourself that you're still basically a human.

Being slapped in the face with the fact that you can't do basic, core human things like eating a meal with other humans makes it obvious that you are in fact lying to yourself.

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>>44650810
>>44650686
Also, while it is, again, humorous for the Friend Zone to not just be a matter of hurt feelings but a direct threat to your continued existence, that strikes me as more fitting for something super anti social like Promethean than Vampire.

So you're supposed to be around people, but them eating or them rejecting you fucks you up, and getting consent with disciplines (I assume this means for blood or for consent for anything, not sex -- its probably reasonable that sexual consent with disciplines is a nono for humanity scores) also damages it, so I'm not really sure what they're supposed to do. Staying clear of traditional vampire hangouts like bars is a must, unless they don't serve food at all (can't remember if they spaz out over drinks), avoiding anything resembling an erotic proposition as far as obtaining blood is a must. I should hope that the "rejection" refers to romantic/sexual ones or else how safe vampire behavior goes is probably even more confusing. Definitely don't go out on dates with people or you're fucked.

>>44650940
>It's angsty, but it's not inconsistent.

If you didn't have to be around people, it'd be their own thing. If you boil right down to it, almost any non controlled encounter with people will remind you of stuff you can't do.

>And if some of the breaking points keep popping up, the player can always voluntarily take a ban to immunize themselves against it in the future.

Its a real waste to take a ban on something so petty when you can take a ban for something practical.

>>44650946
I can see why being around people as they do people things OR not being around people would damage humanity. Having all vampires be bothered by both is pretty rancid, though.

>>44651139

One of the basic things about Vampire since the very beginning with VTM1e is that staying alive as one is fucking hard. Either you die or you do things that steadily erode your humanity until you're a soulless monster. You're gonna lose and you're gonna die. It isn't a matter of "supposed" - humanity has always been about conflict within - you need to be close to people, but not too close, because then you get burned.

>>44651062

>Being slapped in the face with the fact that you can't do basic, core human things like eating a meal with other humans makes it obvious that you are in fact lying to yourself.

It just seems pointless and needlessly angsty to be required to be around people but to require people to not do people things. If the people can't do people things around you, what's so special about being around people? You'd think that avoiding human contact would work better to avoid tousling your illusions... disregarding any debate over the iffiness of illusions being required to their healthy psychological function as well.

>>44651188

It's only very high humanity vampires that have to worry about the "eat food" loss. These are vampires that have fooled themselves that they're human - the jarring reminder that they're different ought to be enough to be a hit all on its lonesome.

>>44651267
Can't you eat food by expanding one Vitae for the Blush of Life?

>>44651267
>pointless and needlessly angsty

WoD and CofD games are gonna be about angst, particularly vampire. Kinda baked into things at this point. Besides, as mentioned above, the only vamps that are going to find the eating thing an issue are the ones trying to pretend at being human. Most vampires won't give a shit, because they're floating around Humanity 4-6.

>>44651237
On second thought, I wouldn't say its *hard* so much as *samey*. Its such a specific hangup that its more like something a particular vampire NPC would have, not a blanket thing all vampires start off with. And its such a pathetic thing to be universally soulfrustrated by. I could see a vampire who had an eating disorder being bothered by that, and a vampire that wanted to bear a child being stressed around happy parents with their children, and so forth, but not all vampires.

>>44651308
Not sure about the specific cost (is it this edition or a prior one where its 8-humanity?) but something like that. Sort of funny to imagine a vampire angrilly eating someone's food to avoid getting stressed.

>>44651062
Would you allow a vamp with the right Coils to address the corresponding 'inhuman frailty' to ignore the resultant Breaking Point then?

>>44651188
It depends on how high your humanity is. If you're at 3, the whole "can't eat food" thing doesn't even register anymore.

To be fair, it also has it's flaws - it doesn't handle transhumanist or schizoid characters very well.

>>44651308
For the scene. You puke it back out eventually.

>>44651350
I mostly took that list as a "here's some examples of what we're talking about. Use whatever works best for your game"

>>44651383
I would, but then again, I'm biased towards the Dragons.

Right, here's the Spellcasters gallery, I just copied what I have form other folders that could be considered mage-y. If you think some of these ought to be removed, do tell, since you will be able to find the same pics in other folders

http://imgur.com/a/i8ghv/all

>>44651350

2e Requiem provides EXAMPLES. If you don't think it should be one for a character, maybe it isn't! But it's one for humanity 9 - which is in the realm of "more human than human", actively eschewing vampiric stuff in favor of pretending to be something you're not.

>>44651383
Well, the whole point of the Coils is to turn vampirism from "curse with some cool toppings" into "blessing with more cool toppings". The only reason Ordo Dracul vampires without weaknesses aren't controlling the world by now is that the Covenant is so young that nobody's really had the time to master too many Coils.

>>44651417
>I mostly took that list as a "here's some examples of what we're talking about. Use whatever works best for your game"

Yeah, I'll probably go with that.

>>44650557
>>44650622
Yes. You know, things that remind you YOU ARE NOT A HUMAN BEING.

>>44650661
What are you even talking about? The list of sins is incredibly clear, and nothing has ever stood out to me as strange. It makes perfect sense, and is even spelled out in the text.

>The listed breaking points are examples only. Add breaking points at Storyteller discretion, or shift these up or down to fit the situation. Typically, the more personal the event is, the lower level a breaking point it should be. If something is significantly distanced from the character, or she had no way to prevent it, it should be a Humanity level higher. Many reflect experiences that serve as reminders of the vampire’s state. For example, watching mortals eat a meal is a harsh reminder that mortal food no longer nourishes Kindred, and that it’s an experience forever denied to the Damned.
"Does this signify that you are less human? If yes, it's a breaking point".

>>44650810
Do... do you understand how Humanity works? If you're Humanity 8, you don't become detached by seeing someone eat, because that's a Humanity 9 thing. Because at that level, you're so HUMAN that little things like that remind you that you aren't.

>>44651417
>For the scene. You puke it back out eventually.
Big deal. You still get the experience of eating. Good enough for bulimic teenagers, good enough for Count Orlock.

>>44651478

You can eat it, but like most other human stuff, it's crap. Tastes like ashes or dirt, and just reminds you how much sweeter blood is. It's less a chance to enjoy a meal and more a chance to throw off pursuers or prey by eating food.

>>44651465
Ah. I took your original statement to mean more "acting like a monster" than "not being human".

>>44651478
Wasn't counter-arguing, just clarifying.

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Whoops, I forgot to upload it after I went through all the trouble of cutting it out and making it fancy...

>>44650810
How do you not know how Humanity works when you clearly played Requiem 1e by your comments about the Predator's Taint? It's literally the same mechanic as 1e Humanity. You roll based on what level you're at, and what level the Breaking Point is (I should stop saying "sins").

>>44651139
>>44651188
Seriously how do you not get this. It's not "all vampires" for one, and, yeah, it's inconsistent things. One Night Without Human Contact is Humanity 10. Watching someone eat is Humanity 9. Most vampires will NEVER roll those Breaking Points.

The problem here isn't that Humanity is humorous, it's that you don't understand how it works.

>>44651139
>Doing vampire things reminds you that you're a vampire, not a human
Yes.

>>44651553
Unless you're Macellarius.

>>44651569
>How do you not know how Humanity works when you clearly played Requiem 1e by your comments about the Predator's Taint?

Sorry, I misrembered the 9 as a 7. It looks like 7- isn't nearly as retarded as I had remembered.

>The problem here isn't that Humanity is humorous, it's that you don't understand how it works.

I'm completely aware of how it works, just not which correlates to what levels.

>>44651345
Hell, if you're Humanity 7 your Clan Bane hasn't even kicked in yet.

>>44651383
No, because that's turning you further and further from Humanity.

>>44651440
Honestly, the whole "well that doesn't bother my character" excuse is dumb and I would never let it fly. I might give bonuses and penalties, but I'd stick to the humanity table in addition to adding more. For instance someone who survives a car crash or something to save someone else would still suffer a breaking point for surviving what should kill a mortal, but they'll get a bonus because they were trying to save someone and that's very human.

>>44651554
It is acting like a monster. You are a monster.
It's your choice whether you act like one, though. And if you're reminded that "Humans don't walk way from car crashes", well... that makes it hard to not think of yourself as a monster.

>>44651553
I don't think that's how it works. In fact, I'm almost certain that's not how it works in 2e, because that's a very 1e approach. In 2e vampires can have emotions and sex and all sorts of things.

>>44651648
Even if it was Humanity 7, you're acting like it means an instant drop. Most vampires are going to roll six dice for every Humanity 7 drop. Hell, plenty will roll seven dice.

>>44651456
Also Coils, at least in 1e, really did not live up to their fluff.

Sure, they were permanent alterations, but that was really all they had going for them. They were very small, incremental alterations (even once you'd maxed them out), and kind of paled in comparison to shit like Cruac. Sure, Cruac wasn't always-on, but Vitae is the easiest fuel-stat to get and Cruac spells were bullshit.

>>44651701
>Most vampires are going to roll six dice for every Humanity 7 drop. Hell, plenty will roll seven dice.
That says four dice.

Where are they getting positive modifiers from?

>>44651781
Too lazy to go through the trouble of saving and uploading:
http://i.imgur.com/5BHefrc.png

>>44651701
Taking a bullet to the gut and barely noticing it isn't "acting like a monster". Yes, it's a REMINDER, but it isn't a behavioral thing like the 1e / Masquerade morality system.

>>44651701

80% of my NWOD experience comes from 1e. I'm prepping stuff for 2e, but I haven't run it yet, so I might be a bit behind. I always liked the thing where, yeah, sure, vampires can have sex and eat food... but nothing quite compares to the taste of blood. Orgasms are nice, sure, but they pale in comparison to vitae. I haven't finished reading 2e vamp tho, so this may have changed. I'd be sad if it did, tho.It'll stay a thematic element in any requiem I run, whether the book emphasizes it or not.

>>44651745
I don't know, a theoretical "Dracula" who's mastered all of the Coils is pretty fucking badass, in its own way. It's basically not even a vampire anymore, just an immortal person with superpowers. Walk around during the day, no need for blood, experience all human pleasures but non of the frailties, never suffer from the Fog of Ages...

>>44651842
Except like I just said, the Coils don't live up to their fluff. None of the published Coils let you do any of that.

>>44651811
"Monster" in this case means "undead abomination that feeds on the lifeblood of the living to further it's own damned existence".

>>44651840
They got rid of the whole "I can't feel emotions, that makes me saaad" aspect, and honestly it's for the better because hopefully it means less of vampires making babies and dogs fight, and less blood orgies for shits and giggles.

>>44651890
That's where it got fucked up - I was thinking "monster" in the Slasher sense.

>>44651842
>>44651884

The forbidden 1e coils are actually stupidly good.

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>>44651890
Its a good change since being emotionless (as opposed to being numb like a person with depression) is a state that nobody can really define well. Some research has shown that emotionless people are basically dumb as a box of rocks, or rather incredibly naive (they never get bad feelings about things, so they can be basically cheated at will).

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So, I was chatting with my husband about how offspring can draw the direct attention of the god machine, and he pointed out how kinda weird that is given the previous bits of lore that state that the god machine is nearly unable to even care or notice about things on such a small scale, pointing out the attached bit in particular, how do you lot think it works? Is one just hyperbole or is "direct attention" in reality just C&C infrastructure or something similar turning its radar towards you?

>>44652278
I think there's probably some mysterious quirk that makes the offspring of demons potentially disastrous for the GMC.

>>44652278
The God-Machine can notice things, it just can't directly deal with them. It also definitely notices things when they come up, and Offspring are one of those things, just as each individual Angel's tasks are something that the God-Machine has taken interest in. That said, my interpretation of the God-Machine is that as a singular entity it doesn't exist. There's no one server hidden away that is the core God-Machine. It's the combination of all of the Infrastructure and all of the Angels.

>>44652278
Direct Attention has got to be hyperbole, as the direct attention of the God-Machine would be almost impossible to achieve. It's more 'some attention', where the God-Machine catches something of a glimpse of the offspring out of the corner of its eye. Which is only really possible because the offspring is so weird and unpredicted, yet still on the God-Machine's wavelength.

>>44652361
Other way around, offspring are, when activated, the only agents it has that are infallible. When they're activated it can take a single action with them, and they don't get to know what it is or when it happens. They talk about it in Heirs to Hell.
>>44652500
That's sorta what I figured, but I'm a bit unsure
>>44652504
that would make sense, yea. Offspring fucks up on their compromise roll, and somewhere a bit of command infrastructure pings and some angel or guardian manning it takes a closer look.

>>44652558
Do Offspring have Compromise?

>>44652575
Yes, offspring have access to embeds and if they are fractals they can take a merit that basically lets them supercharge their embeds in the manner of an exploit(But less controlled), either way they can take compromises, if they fuck up they get the god machines attention and move one step closer to being able to be controlled by it for an action.

So a few threads ago that one guy was complaining that I only do dumb homebrew and that let him down (because I'm supposed to care). So for a different kind of homebrew, how would you update Tzimisce to Requiem 2e?

>>44652829
F-faggot kun....your PDFs are quantity over quality, almost without fail.

>>44652829
make them one of the lost clans, homebrew vicissitude as their main clan discipline

Doesn't suffering a Humanity Breaking Points in VtR2 give you bonus Beats?

>>44652829
Ventrue Bloodline with access to vicissitude. Maybe as a form of Protean Devotions, in which case the Bloodline would give them access to Protean? Can a Bloodline give you a new Discipline AND unique Devotions? If not then maybe they'd lose access to Resilience or something, I dunno.

The Ventrue Clan Weakness fits well enough for the coldness and detachment of the Path of Metamorphosis.

Also they're probably all over the R&D side of the Ordo Dracul.

So guys. I'm looking at doing an alteration for Auspex 1-5 for OWoD. I'm trying to pull in some of the Bloodlines-style Auspex bonuses.

Any thoughts on how one might draw that in without it being overpowered?

>>44652829
What do you use to make you'r PDFs?

>>44652829

Focus Geist 2e or your Werewolf game. Stop starting new projects, finish the ones you have. If you don't care about what they had to say, don't actually bring it up.

>>44649784

Yes, at Sekhem 10-8. From then on, they look like ordinary people, perhaps with regal bearing to them. Because Irem lay in East Africa, your average Mummy will look like an East African, with some Middle Eastern and Asian folks too, and a few Europeans for good measure.

>>44652995
It can. Adding Protean and having Protean/Fortitude devotions as the various fleshcrafting.

The better question is, why? There's already analogues for all of the best parts of the Tzimisce in the NWoD, including the metamorphosis/advancement beyond (Ordo), the body crafting (Carnivale and Norvegi) and the 'lord of all you survey' (the Architects of the Monolith).

>>44652876
I have quality. Also, don't st-stutter

>>44652909
Viccissitude works much better the way that Obtenebration is handled.

>>44652995
All Bloodlines give access to a fourth Discipline. Many give unique Devotions.

>>44653100
Whatever's available. It's really just dicking around with the formatting and layout. The background/border is from Mr Gone's webside, so are most of the fonts. I print it out with cutepdfwriter.

>>44653140
While it's true that I could/should be working on Geist or Werewolf, I'm joining a Vampire game and someone wants to be Tzimisce, so I said I'd work on that for them. Honestly it shouldn't be too hard and I've already done most of it in my head while taking a shower.

>>44653150
Carnival and Norvegi aren't in 2e, and neither capture the feel of Tzimisce.

>>44653242
You have a handful of quality in each PDF and the rest is trash, this doesn't count the PDFs that are ONLY trash like the grave kitsunes.

>>44653242
If it matters I haven't seen one pdf you made that I didn't like I think there all great. If it wasn't 89$ and more like 30$ i'd buy you foxxit pdf maker thing

File: Nekomata.pdf (1 B, 486x500) Image search: [Google]

1 B, 486x500

>>44653303
You mean the nekomata, which someone at Onyx Path has said is neat, and also which you've just given me an excuse to post?

File: Detective Bat.png (3 MB, 1280x1752) Image search: [Google]

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Also, we actually got through Totem creation this week.

>Totem: The Detective On Leather Wings
>Aspiration: Find a Crime
>A powerful Ensih of Gotham, the Detective takes the form of an oversized bat, like a demon from some child’s nightmares. With its piercing eyes it seems to look into the soul of the cowardly and superstitious lot, searching for weakness. It takes the form of a bat, but at it’s heart the spirit is a detective, uncovering information hidden away in the dark corners of the city, where the vagrants live and the sky is darkened by buildings. It will ferret out answers wherever it needs to, even at great risk, and expects those that follow it to do the same.
>Rank:
>Power ●●● Finesse ●●●●●●● Resistance ●●●●●
>Corpus: [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
>Willpower ●●●●●●●●●●, Essence: 15
>Influences
>Clues: ●
>Determination: ●●●
>Size: 4, Defense: 5, Speed: 20, Initiative: +12
>Numina: Awe, Innocuous, Implant Mission, Stalwart
>Blessing: To help it further it’s own agenda of vigilance and vengeance--and to aid in their own agendas--the Detective On Leather Wings grants the Pack that follows it one dot of Wits as well as an Investigation specialty in (Crime Scenes).
>Ban: Never ignore a crime. If significant wrongdoing goes unpunished, the Detective (and the pack bound to it) must do everything in it’s power to reveal the misdeed and bring about some form of justice. Failure to do so results in a loss of Essence. Ignoring the crime means spending all remaining Willpower.
>Bane: Evidence from a Cold Case (5+ years unsolved crime) from the GCPD Evidence Locker.
No h8, pls r8.

Yes, their Totem is Batman

>>44653408
Yeah, and she also got fired, so maybe her opinion doesn't mean shit anymore.

>>44653806
I meant Hill.

Hill loves catgirls. The problem is they don't love him back.

>>44653490

7/10, it's OK.

>>44653242

Why not just use the Vampire Translation Guide? Most of it is 2e compliant.

>>44650810
how would you feel if you a vampire was seeing me a human eat a cheeseburger, fries, nachos, pizza, and some of the sweet sweet ice cream with the chocolate in it and little marshmallows. i would go crazy because in the end i can't eat that shit and i want it.


boom breaking point

>>44654817
The Vampire Translation Guide was incredibly lazy and just copy-pasted oWoD stuff without adjusting anything wherever possible.

>>44654817
Player's argument is that it just changes the dice pools and not much else, and I'm inclined to agree that's kind of lame. So basically >>44655020

I've looked through all of the lore books and everything CWoD, I can't seem to find a proper "scope" for the Cappadocians in Dark Ages times.
I've had the idea of a Scot Cappadocian, I'm assuming that because of the major push of Christianity into Scotland around the late 700s, that Cappadocian Vampires might have followed along. Does this sound reasonable?

>>44652829
>>44652909
Pijavica seems like an easy fit.

>>44655168
How so? They're not really anything like Tzimisce

>>44655091
>>44655020

Changing dicepools and shifting around fluff is ultimately what Vampire conversion boils down to, especially in VtM to VtR, but fair enough. An Ordo Dracul/Ventrue bloodline with Protean added on should suffice, with a bonus Protean/Majesty Devotion to represent Fleshcrafting as a secret taught to the most powerful.

>>44655154

Sounds reasonable to me! The Cappadocians were able to migrate into the Middle East, so I don't see why they couldn't be in the Scottish Isles.

>>44653806
>>44653806
>>44653806
who got fired why and wtf am i looking at in >>44653408
this is not in wod guys.... right?

>>44655750

That's Aspel's homebrewed clan of vampire catgirls. They just really like looking up WoD fonts and laying things out so that it looks like a real entry in a WoD book. While I'm not really a fan of their work, I can't deny that it doesn't look good at least.

>>44655783
and the girl that everybody hates?

also thanks

>>44656027

I don't think everybody actually hates her (I sure as heck don't) but AmyV was a former freelancer for OPP who wrote for some WoD books. Some people hate her guts in what I assume is related to outside thread drama? Either way, Giants Upon the Earth is pretty damn cool, and I'm gonna be using it for my own take on a WoD Sword and Sorcery setting I've been cooking up. Might run it someday, too, maybe after the Neolithic Mage/Werewolf Dark Era comes out.

>>44655301
They're very much a blank slate, and the only thing known about them (congealed blood larvae) works well for a clan whose specialty is Vicissitude.

For the Tzimisce thing.

Help me figure out a Bloodline Bane that's less about sleeping in a particular soil and focuses more on the air of polite nobility that the Tzimisce cultivate. "Be polite" doesn't seem to be a very strong mechanic.

Also, I have them as a Ventrue Bloodline, but there's some contention amongst my group about whether they should keep Dominate or have the original Clan's Auspex as one of their four Disciplines (the fourth is Protean, obviously).

>>44657265
The only thing known about them also is very at odds with the Tzimisce as a whole. They're noble lords of night.

>>44657317
"Noble lords of the night" who literally sleep in dirt. I hardly think "have a freaky gestation period" tarnishes things much. Besides, having to protect their progeny makes a great excuse for their isolationist, territorial, and castle-building behavior.

That being said, a Ventrue bloodline works well, too. Tzimisce have a sacred hospitality thing, right? Make that their ban: They HAVE to abide guests according to the code, and MUST be model guests in return.

I'd say keep Dominate, but maybe use Auspex in place of Resilience?

>>44657317
The Spina have 'be polite' as a Bloodline weakness; look at that for a baseline.I'd give them Dominate; the Old Clan Tzimisce have it, and you're looking to smash both versions of the Tzim together it looks like.