>What attracts you to your favorite game line?

It's very spooky.

>>48282282
that's a lot of 2s and 8s

>What attracts you to your favorite game line?
>Mage
I'm a dork who absolutely loves magical bullshit, and Mage's relatively freeform casting system hits a lot of good spots for me.
>Werewolf
I love animism, shamanistic shit, shapeshifting warmachines, and the gay werewolves trope

Question about the sympathetic casting/conditional duration attainment.

Does the attainment allow you to substitute mana for reach to cast at sensory range?

For the conditional duration does the rank increase also apply for advanced duration? What if a 'common occurrence' is longer than the duration increase.

For example I cast a Mind 2 normal duration sleep spell on a security guard with the condition that he sleeps until the sun rises. That's more than likely that's a certainty but dawn being a couple hours away may not qualify for immediate. Would he doze until dawn or for like 10 turns?

>>48282448
If I remove the spooky would you die?

>>48282571
Have you ever gotten to play either?

>>48282811
Yes
Well, sort of
I was playing a Werewolf game for a while earlier this year, but it ended and turned into a Mage game with the same group that only lasted 1 session(Mage 2e wasn't out yet, either)
I'm also currently running a Mage game, going on two months now.

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>Genius

I really love the idea of really powerful people who despite their extreme powers are still dependent on materials [and thus are completely mortal without it], and still have mundane lives.

I also live the idea of amazing events and places existing just outside of view of 'real life'.

Also come on, ray-guns.

>>48282850
>Mage with copper paint

>>48282282
>What attracts you to your favorite game line?
Primal nature of werewolf. And I really like the setting/background of WtF.

>>48282282
>What attracts you to your favorite line?

Mummy inverts the traditional RPG power scale (you have a demigod at character creation with your power waning as time passes, and every character has an entire organization subservient to them), gives you an excuse to fuck around the entirety of human history, and tickles my Egyptomaniacal side. The background mythology is dense but satisfying.

The tough part is finding other people to play it.

>>48282724

It would be extremely painful.

>>48282699
>Does the attainment allow you to substitute mana for reach to cast at sensory range?
No. If you are already casting at sensory range, you have the option of filling a yantra slot with a sympathetic yantra (giving no dice bonuses) and spending a mana to cast at sympathetic range.

>For the conditional duration does the rank increase also apply for advanced duration?
Yes.

>What if a 'common occurrence' is longer than the duration increase.
The spell expires when duration does. Conditional Duration also makes your spells weak to Fate as it can force the condition to trigger.

>For example I cast a Mind 2 normal duration sleep spell on a security guard with the condition that he sleeps until the sun rises. That's more than likely that's a certainty but dawn being a couple hours away may not qualify for immediate. Would he doze until dawn or for like 10 turns?
Several turns. Keeping regular duration is more useful for tactical uses like traps.

>>48283069
>No. If you are already casting at sensory range, you have the option of filling a yantra slot with a sympathetic yantra (giving no dice bonuses) and spending a mana to cast at sympathetic range.

I'm not sure if I'm following. Does that mean you're casting at something sympathetically tied to the guy you're in sensory range from? Like shake the hand of a politician to metaphorically or literally kick their spouse in the dick?

>>48283194
It means that you need to spend the reach for the spell to be cast at Sensory Range, but there might be ways around that with attainments and artifacts. It's just a different way of mechanically representing that this spell costs +1 Reach.

>>48282920
Eh not quite. Mage is about learning secrets about how the world really works, Genius is about transgressing boundaries while being incapable of reaching the truth.

>>48283279
Alright let me see if I got this correct.

With 2 dots in Space I still need to spend reach to move a spell to sensory range.

If I'm casting at a target I cannot sense I must spend 1 reach to move the spell to sensory range, use a Yantra slot for the connection I'm casting at e.g. their name, current picture, spouse, blood or hair, etc. (that provides no dice bonus), and spend one mana.

Whats the deal with Dice Bonuses? Is it that only equipment is subject to the max +5 bonus rule, since it is located in the Equipment section of the CofD Corebook? But then on page 78 of the same book, it talks about clues going above the "normal +5 limit on dice bonuses." Is it +5 in total or from any one source?

And the best question is: If dice bonuses are so goddamn important across the games, why place it under the fucking equipment section when it could be placed under Playing the Game for more clarity?

>>48282282
>>What attracts you to your favorite game line?
W20 was my first real step away from D&D. Honestly we were originally just killing time before 5E... I didn't expect to enjoy this so much (we ended up ditching 5th completely). The modern setting made it easy to relate to my character, I like the grey vs grey morality, and the system itself makes a lot more sense to me as a person who cares more about roleplay and less about min-maxing character sheets.

>>48283532
Correct. And the spell will be Withstood by the connection strength even if it normally doesn't have a Withstand rating. If it does, it will be withstood by the highest rating +1 for each other source.

>>48283581
Awesome, thanks.

>>48283539
>Rolling Dice
>Many rolls have modifiers, either from equipment, circumstance, or someone working against your character. Most modifiers are within the range of +3 to –3, though they can range as low as –5 or as high as +5. Apply the modifiers to your dice pool before you roll. Add all the bonuses first, then apply penalties.

Any source of Dice Modifiers is subject to the +/-5 Rule.

Being a promethean fan is suffering.

Why am I not surprised?

>>48284020
It's a LARPing aid.

>>48284020

The new edition looks super good, anon. Do not despair!

>Game dies before it even begins
>again

Why is WoD so full of noncommittal people

>>48284276
it isn't
online gaming is
>>48284226
it looks very bad, another beast failur

>>48284427
Hopefully OP can redeem themselves with Deviant.

>>48284498
that looks promising

>>48284226
How? It's Black Hat Matt.

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>>48282282
>What attracts you to your favorite game line?
Mage, for fighting against the forces of chaos and disorder with hypertech while trying to keep from drowning in a whirlpool of internal politics, espionage, and deep secrets.

...I mean, it's a little weird that they names the game line after the antagonists, but hey, it was the 90s.

>>48284427
>>48284538
You people are dumb. It looks good. I'm especially interested in the way Transmutations are being handled.

>>48284641
Shut up, Amy.

>>48284641
it really doesn't look good
especially the way the dev/writers are handling everything, which is the same way they handled beast
"its perfect! if you see something wrong with it your the problem!"

>>48285595
But that's literally been Promethean from day one. You either accept the "you want to be a real boy" aspect or you don't play a game about being Pinocchio. Beyond that, I honestly don't understand the notion that the devs should change their game anyway. There are plenty of people who like Promethean. There are also plenty of people who don't "get" it. The game isn't for them.

Wasn't the first Promethean Dev Blog all about that? "It's all about the buy-in"?

>>48285735
You're missing the point, m8
It's not that the devs are saying "it's all about the buy-in, don't play it if you don't like the themes"
It's that the devs are saying "everything is working as intended, there are absolutely no issues with anything we've written at all, playtester feedback is obviously wrong"

>>48285874
As far as I'm aware there hasn't really been any playtester feedback yet. What are you talking about?

>>48285887
I might be confusing it with Beast, but I remember people talking a while back about how they submitted playtest feedback to the devs, and barely anything changed between their playtest copy and the final game.
Hence why things such as "Behold, My True Form" or w/e exist; the devs didn't pay any attention to playtesters, so you have a horribly unbalanced game where some powers are objectively worth more than several other powers combined.

>>48285947
>I remember people talking a while back about how they submitted playtest feedback to the devs, and barely anything changed between their playtest copy and the final game.
Obviously, I'm referring specifically to Beast, here, but I remember people saying something along the same lines about different versions of playtest packets they got, where nothing changed from one to the other despite the feedback they gave.

With or without Auspex, do Vampires know when other Vampires are using non-obvious diciplines?

>>48285992
No.

>>48285947
>you have a horribly unbalanced game where some powers are objectively worth more than several other powers combined.
To be fair, that's most games.

>>48285954
I know Matt especially has an attitude of "unless it caused a problem in play, it's not a problem". Which is... generous, to say the least. I don't mind things like Merits that give other Merits, because stuff like Mystery Cult has an implicit "work with your ST" caveat, but powers that are less impressive than other powers (two powers that open Doors, but one can put a Condition on the subject) and powers that can do way more than they're worth (giving anything Soulless, even if it can't be Soulless) are just bad form. Especially when there's obvious bad interactions that could cause problems, like creating a plague of Soullessness (sidenote: I've forgotten how to do that and don't want to skim through all the Nightmares to check if its still possible).

I'm not actually sure what the problem with "Behold, My True Form!" is. I mean, unless you mean how the Dragonfire one is better as an attack. It's actually pretty bland compared to Matt's attitude towards combat powers, and how they should be flashy. Oh wait, there's no per-turn Satiety limit, is there?

>>48279143
>Would this guy work as a Malk?
No. Because it is fucking silly.
Rule #1 of making Malkavians: Don't be silly.

>>48283387
>about transgressing boundaries while being incapable of reaching the truth.
That sounds a LOT like Mage to me.

>>48283659
Is it every single bonus, or all bonuses put together?

>>48283539
>>48283659
>>48286372
Honestly I don't think the developers know, and they keep it vague so that you don't question it.

>>48286399
The more I play this game, the shoddier it looks.

Especially 2nd edition, which had to be rushed after CCP surprise-announced that they'd accept a 2nd edition.

>>48286435
Honestly I love 2e for the most part, even in the places where it does seem like they missed things (Firearms now only has the size of the Firearm as Defense in melee, if its large). But that rule was the same in 1e.

>>48286447
Oh, I love it, but I'd have preferred it if OPP had been given the chance to make a proper edition out of it.

>>48286363
Then you know nothing about Mage.

>>48286474
Hubris, transgression, is at the CORE of Mage. That's the main theme.

>>48286502
Hubris is, trangression? Not as much, while still present. In any case you're missing the main divide. Mage is about learning supernatural Truths and enlightening yourself in ancient mysteries. Genius is about having your perceptions permamently skewed and losing the ability to touch base with objective reality.

>>48286528
>In any case you're missing the main divide. Mage is about learning supernatural Truths and enlightening yourself in ancient mysteries.
And thinking you are some kind of god who doesn't need to care about the rules of mortals.

>>48286546
Well sure.

And being right to think so.

>>48286553
Exactly my point!

Mages as a group tend to think rules don't, or shouldn't, apply to them. This grows to include stuff like "don't truck with the abyss", and stuff like that, since they know they are above that kind of shit. Hilarity then ensues.
Transgression of rules is at the core of Mage.

>>48286583
Yeah but thats sort of a different kind of transgression.

"I'm a god, I do what I want" is a bit of a different theme than "My Hydroelectric Telescope is powered by orphans."

>>48286639
Not really. Both are "fuck what the majority think, I'm right."

>>48286639
No, that's "I'm a God, I do what I want", the other is "I'm an insane Scientist, I do what I want".

Your quibble is over nothing.
Mage and Genius are very, very similar thematically. With Mage tending to have its head in the clouds a bit more.

>>48286670
>Mage and Genius are very, very similar thematically. With Mage tending to have its head in the clouds a bit more.
Yes, exactly! Same themes, but different trappings!

>>48286652
The difference between Mage and Genius:
Mage: "fuck what the majority think, I'm right, because I can see the Truth and it says I'm right"
Genius: "fuck what the majority think, I'm right, because this shit works like my theories say it would"

>>48286678
For the most part, yeah.

>>48286685
Same thing. Different trappings,

>>48286710
>>48286678
Nah. They're similiar, but their themes go in opposite directions in a few places, the biggest of which is Mages powers let them see the Truth, and Geniuses powers keep them from seeing the Truth.

>>48286710
Nah, one sees the Truth while the other thinks they see the Truth, but not really.
And one has to shy away from public use of their powers else Paradox eats their existence off the universe while the other can rampage downtown with their steam automata/freeze ray.

If you still see them as the same, might as well say that Vampire and Beast are same as well.

>>48286462
I think it probably wouldn't have turned out much better. I mean, they got the go-ahead to do the corebook and it took ages, but it was still half a reprint.

>>48286725
>If you still see them as the same, might as well say that Vampire and Beast are same as well.

Because they hunger, you mean?
Oh please. Hunger is a side-point in Vampire. It's the predatory mindset that rules the themes of Vampire. That and "Every other vampire will one day either be dead or a threat to me".

Beast has an inclusive mindset, Vampire has an exclusive. IMPORTANT difference.

>>48286007
So how is the no discipline rule enforced in Elysium?

>>48286772
Nothing flashy.
"In a closed society where everyone is guilty the only crime is getting caught."

>>48286772
Or why go to Elysium at all? Auspex 2 can reveal so much about someones intentions so it would be wiser just to be a hermit and not attend.

oWoD: is it possible to use Dominate on werewolves? I can't remember any rules for it and whether or not they are immune to it

What's a good damage measure for a speeding truck striking a vampire in the WoD? Is it soakable lethal? Halve-able, soakable bashing?

>>48287494
Questions like this makes me glad I'm playing CofD.

>>48287494
I'd say at this point this would be lethal, soakable, but if the impact was high, then good luck soaking 15 lethal damage or something like that

>>48287286
IIRC, you can use it, but they might have garbage Gift-shit or some other bullshit to mitigate or protect against it.

Fuck Lupines. You're better off just slaughtering the brutes.

Do people use the "Beaten Down & Surrender" rules?

I can't seem my players being to happy having to constantly spend Willpower to stick around in a fight after a comparatively minor beating, or a mild wound.

>>48287551
>You're better off just slaughtering the brutes.
You got any choice methods you'd like to share with the class?

>>48287580
No, because honestly I don't understand how to apply them to groups.

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>>48287496
Could you elaborate?

>>48287537
Fair point. And do you think that's enough of the kind of damage needed to cause Final Death, or just render the target Torpid?

Is it just me who is stupid, or do Mages have a seriously hard time scrutinizing things now?

Especially compared to Changelings, if one looks up the playtest doc.

>>48287585
Use that Dominate you were mentioning to coax a bunch of random thugs to attempt to kill them in random acts of violent crime. Tailor your choice of thugs to the Lupine in question (Skinheads for an ethnic Lupine, Gangstaz for Whitey, etc.) If you want to get crazy, use SWAT teams or ISIL sleeper cells instead.

>>48287601
Oh yeah, definitely. Even falling damage can be lethal if you fall from a 20 floor building. And that can definitely cause enough damage to put someone into torpor. After all, if you get 20 lethal damage and only soak like 3, that's gonna put you into torpor, if not outright kill you

>>48287632
I was asking about Dominate, not him. And yeah, I was wondering whether there are any rules regarding werewolves. I'm guessing generation doesn't matter, but what about a frenzied werewolf? Do regular frenzy rules apply (+2 to diff to Dominate, he gets -2 diff to resist)?

>>48285735
we're not talkking about the buy in
we're talking about the rest of the game

>>48287580
>I can't seem my players being to happy having to constantly spend Willpower to stick around in a fight after a comparatively minor beating, or a mild wound.
the rule is there so they know it's not a minor beating they're going to get, that they're gonna be getting hit for 4 boxes a pop and maybe they should get out of the dungeons/dragons mindset

>>48283539
I interpret it as both. From one thing under normal condition max +5 and total +5 as well, but that is after counting all penalties. So for instance -3, -2, +2, +4, +5 would give total +5, not +6.

>>48288025
It didn't work so in 1e at least, in the example of how Physical Intensity (then called Physical Augmentation) works, the Prince spends 3 Vitae, and gets +6 to all Strength-based dice pools.

>>48288025
I think that damage rolls are one of exceptions. What I said I think applies mainly to skill rolls.

Can mages with "mage sight" see if others have awakened or sleepers without knowing them at all?

>>48288769

I'd say prime sight would show that. Every other sight would see a mages nimbus when they start casting a spell.

As someone who was really into Mage 1e, but can't grasp 2e... Could someone please explain to me how Scrutiny works now?

>>48287286
>>48287551
Werewolves are not immune to mental influence, and the gifts to make them resist are few and far in-between.

Shell (Rank 3 ; Metis) | Mindblock (Rank 4 ; Silver Fang) | Resist Temptation (Rank 2 ; Stargazer)

>>48287496
You act like vehicle on vampire combat isn't a thing that happens in CofD as well.

>>48287590
>>48287868
>>48287580
"Beaten Down" is mostly for NPCs, or players who are playing non-combat and/or weak characters who can't handle a real fight. Someone used to pain and danger can shrug it off and not get the Tilt, but for a lot of characters, they've never experienced violence.
"A substantial portion of your health" also isn't minor, and most blows will deal like four damage.

>>48287617
How so? How do Changelings even Scrutinize in the first place? Mages get a ridiculous amount of info from scrutiny, and can do it better than anyone.

>>48288970
What are you confused about?

>>48289602
>You act like vehicle on vampire combat isn't a thing that happens in CofD as well.
http://generatorrex.wikia.com/wiki/Hunter_Cain
Just replace all instances of the word EVO with Vampire.

A gun that makes the Vitae of a Vamp explosively combust inside their body when you shoot them with it shouldn't be too had to pull off, should it?

>>48289690
Pretty sure that's a VALKYRIE weapon

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>>48289602
>How so? How do Changelings even Scrutinize in the first place? Mages get a ridiculous amount of info from scrutiny, and can do it better than anyone.

At Clarity 4+ they get a free reflexive fact check based on Clarity.

Clarity is a broken-good thing to have in 2e, at high levels it boosts perception checks, AND you can add it when you spend Willpower to resist, instead of the +3/-2 that you'd normally get.

>>48286722
Just an fyi, Genius is literally a MtAs fan who got super buttmad about the lack of a Technocracy in MtAw and deciding to make them himself
It's literally just Mage with different trappings

>>48284592
I want this technocracy meme to end

>>48290179
It's not a meme, it's a single shitposter.

>>48289849
Mages get unseen senses for everything. Kenning is not exactly Scrutiny. Though "one yes or no question" could probably be cleared up. "Is this a vampire?" sort of undermines the Exceptional effect.

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>M:TAs

I enjoy the philosophical question of "if what everyone believes in is right, whats the best thing to believe in?"

also there's a lot of "Humanity Fuck Yeah!" involved given mages are practically normal humans.

and the memes.

>>48290025
...I just now realized why anon above was so hard on transgression being a Genius-only theme. I had completely forgotten that it was part of the name.

>>48289849
that's the problem with thehse developers and power creep
one sees something they like in one game and decides they have to have it in another, but different
"but different" ends up meaning "but better"
by the end of the edition runs no one has any drawbacks to their powers (beast)

>>48290821
But Kenning and Scrutiny are barely even the same, and from different gamelines entirely. And most powers don't have drawbacks.

You know, I actually want to know what people's actual problems are with Beast, mechanically.

>>48291729
>But Kenning and Scrutiny are barely even the same
they do the same thing
>and from different gamelines entirely.
this is my point, it wouldn't matter if mages could do action A and powerful mages could do action A better, the problem is mages can do action A and changelings can do action A better
even tho it really has nothing to do with changelings thematically
>And most powers don't have drawbacks.
with the culmination of everyones powers you have significant drawbacks
vampires are allergic to sunlight and fire and prone to frenzy
werewolves are allergic to silver and prone to frenzy and falling into other dimensions
mages have a weaker aura if they become mass murderers
changelings can't trust huntsmen
if a geist guy is killed they lose a point before they rez

you acn see the drabacks to being these guys gets weaker and weaker

>>48291961
>mages have a weaker aura if they become mass murderers

Mages also have fucking Paradox.

>>48291961
You forgot Prometheans, who have the flaws that they are hated by everyone, everywhere, always. And destroy everything around them.
Worst drawback of the lot.

Changelings also have a small weakness to Iron.

Sin-Eaters (oh god I hate that name) are also fettered with a mad ghost, but yeah, not that much of a weakness.

>>48292090
paradox right
it's pretty weak drawback but i forgot to mention it

>>48292122
Not really. It's relatively easily countered, but the entire culture is built on avoiding it. It has huge impact on how mages act.

>>48292157
>It's relatively easily countered
this is the only thing that matters
if you're going to count the rest you might as well count everyone hating vampires and werewolves and political infighting
but we're talking about mechanical drawbacks

>>48291961
>they do the same thing
>the problem is mages can do action A and changelings can do action A better
even tho it really has nothing to do with changelings thematically
They don't, though.
In fact, Kenning is closer to Mage Sight, which is incredibly good, and does quite a bit more (like allowing Scrutiny). You seem to misunderstand what each does.

And not every game line even IS about their weaknesses.
>Vampires
Have relatively few weaknesses when you get right down to it, and can deal with some of them (like the sun) easier in 2e. The point of the game isn't your mechanical drawbacks, though. It's about being damned and social manipulation and keeping human even as you become a monster to survive.
>Werewolf
Their only real "weakness" is Kuruth, and their duty. Silver is rarely going to come up and is more flavourful. Both anger issues and the Hunt are their themes, though.
>Mage
The theme is power and knowledge, both of which can corrupt. Paradox is the epitome of that, and as the other anon says, regardless of how "pretty weak" it is, their culture is built around it. In 2e, it's also an actual thing. Beyond that, there are the less mechanistic drawbacks, like knowing the world is a lie.
>Changelings
Have more "drawbacks" than being unable to trust Huntsmen. They're vulnerable to Cold Iron now (it does Agg, last I checked), and their Clarity is fragile. They're also likely to be bound by word and deed, and their big themes are having been changed, but no one else being able to see those changes.
>Prometheans
Wasteland, Disquiet, Firestorms, being soulless. Promethean really is a game about the drawbacks, which is why they have the most.
>Sin-eaters
I love the name, fuck you. They can never escape death. They see it everywhere, ticking away at everyone by degrees. They see where it has happened, and they see the remains of those left behind. They have a mad ghost, and yes, the 1e does a shitty job of making that meaningful, but it's still there.

>>48292295
>Mummies
They're another game about their drawback, and the're bound to Judges and cults, doing everyone's bidding but their own, with their lives ticking away and their memories lost and fleeting. But mechanically they're incredibly powerful, so oh no, they don't have a ~real~ drawback.
>Beast
Beasts have to make mischief or they start dying, and their Horror lashes out at people around them. Also they have people instinctively driven to kill them, though of course those people's mechanics suck (Prometheans also have people trying to eat their flesh).

>>48292191
It completely informs everything you do. That's a pretty big drawback.

>>48292295
>In fact, Kenning is closer to Mage Sight, which is incredibly good, and does quite a bit more (like allowing Scrutiny). You seem to misunderstand what each does.
i'm looking at both files right now and i'm clearly not misunderstanding shit
mage scrutiny is the only one that gives you information on all magic shit around you (others just elt you know linmked to what magic you're using) and give you further information
the cost? everyone knows you're doing it, you can't do anything else, and costs willpower
clash of wills you get a rote roll
kenning does the same thing subtly with a clarity roll, it adds clarity to your clash of wills, and not only tells you every magical being/spell active around you but for each success you can ask a yes/no about it

the rest of your post is just you being ignorant
>can deal with the sun easier
thats a laugh
>only real "Weakness" is kuruth/silver is rarely going to come up
its the prime weapon of their enemies
>they're vulnerable to cold iron now
and that's more likely to come up than silver?
>clarity is fragile
you can RAISE IT by doing things for free

you're a fucking idiot

>>48292295
>I love the name, fuck you. They can never escape death. They see it everywhere, ticking away at everyone by degrees. They see where it has happened, and they see the remains of those left behind. They have a mad ghost, and yes, the 1e does a shitty job of making that meaningful, but it's still there.
vampires can never escape their fears
werewolves the spirits
mages mysteries
shit you can copy that with an unseen sense (death) merit

I forgot
>Demon
Man, Demons have so much shit they have to deal with I'm not even going to bother to list it.

>>48292409
>i'm looking at both files right now and i'm clearly not misunderstanding shit
You clearly are. Kenning doesn't give you nearly as much information, and Peripheral Mage Sight is the same thing as Kenning, but always active and not rolled. Kenning also only adds to Clash of Wills to detect concealment and the like, not *every* Clash of Wills.

And yes, Vampires can deal with the sun easier. At BP 1, Humanity 7, it's 1 Lethal an hour. That's a far cry from instantly exploding.

>you're a fucking idiot
And you're completely missing the point and judging games based on whether or not the mechanics of their drawbacks are worse.

>>48292438
Unseen Sense (Death) is not the same. Also, Mages *want* to look for Mysteries, Werewolves can avoid Spirits, and Vampires don't really have much more to fear than anything else.

>>48292509
>You clearly are. Kenning doesn't give you nearly as much information, and Peripheral Mage Sight is the same thing as Kenning, but always active and not rolled. Kenning also only adds to Clash of Wills to detect concealment and the like, not *every* Clash of Wills.
: The changeling not only senses the presence of the occult, but sees its truest
supernatural nature. She sees bloody fangs and cold hunger if she senses a vampire, a werewolf’s
hybrid form, or a path of thorns leading to a fae creature's bone-littered lair.
>And yes, Vampires can deal with the sun easier. At BP 1, Humanity 7, it's 1 Lethal an hour. That's a far cry from instantly exploding.
vampires don't heal
thats one lethal every ten minutes, dumbass
and that's not something you can just rest off, cause vampires don't heal

read a fucking book
then you can post
until then you don't know what the fuck you're talking about

>>48292553
That's Peripheral Mage Sight. Yes, Kenning will let you ask a question, and yes, that should probably have a list of questions, or at least some sort of explanation of what you can ask about. But it is not at all as good as Mage Sight or Scrutiny.

Hour, 10 minutes. Same difference. Vampires can heal through blood, which is rather easy to come by, considering how much of it is all around them.

>read a fucking book
You first. Also are you the person I was arguing with the other day? You still haven't learned to hit shift.

>>48292553
That's just Doug/Aspel. This is his only reason for existing so he gets really defensive. No point arguing with him he never acknowledges he's wrong.

>>48292630
>That's Peripheral Mage Sight.
>The changeling not only senses
He clearly posted the Kenning section.

>>48292632
How about you explain what's wrong, then? Would you like me to go into great detail about why I'm right? I'll admit I'm wrong when I'm actually fucking wrong.

>>48292643
Yes, I'm aware.
>Yes, the effect of Kenning is analogous to a rolled and activated Peripheral Mage Sight, not Scrutiny, as that poster keeps saying it is.
Since I was ambiguous.

>>48292679
>How about you explain what's wrong, then? Would you like me to go into great detail about why I'm right? I'll admit I'm wrong when I'm actually fucking wrong.
Sure.

Anon stated that as more game-lines are made, the mechanical drawbacks of playing the supernatural beings in those games get weaker and weaker.

He pointed out vampires having the biggest weaknesses, then werewolves, then mages having the least of the big three.

You then claimed that paradox was a bigger mechanical drawback than burning to death in sunlight and silver was rarely going to come up in a werewolf game, then implied that cold iron was more likely to come up.

And of course you were wrong about all the mechanics themselves and what they actually do.

>>48292731
I said the wrong time for how long it takes a vampire to burn. Vampires still burn in a LOT less time than they did in 1e. Vampires definitely do not have the biggest weaknesses, though. They can't watch a sunrise without it hurting and they need blood. Most of their actual drawbacks are minor, and easy to deal with (which the anon said means they're not drawbacks... at least in the case of Paradox). Most of the drawback of being a vampire is dealing with other vampires. The sun is a drawback not because it burns very slowly but because of the Daysleep and the fact that you can't DO anything for upwards of 12 hours.

Werewolves' drawback is the biggest of the original three. Their drawback triggers the easiest, and you're encouraged to skirt that line as part of the Hunt (kuruth, that is) and can derail everything when they murder the shit out of scores of people. They're also driven to murder (or close to it) something every month or so. On top of having to balance their Harmony, which is no easy task when so much of what they do puts them towards Spirit.

Paradox is a bugger mechanical drawback than sunlight, especially in 2e, where it's more likely to happen. Silver rarely comes up because people don't carry silver on them all the time and rarely is a game going to be all about dealing with Hunters or the Pure. As far as I'm aware, at the moment Changelings have no drawback to actually carrying Cold Iron on them, and Iron is far more common in the world than silver. Which, if I recall, in 2e Cold Iron is... Iron.

"The mechanical drawbacks get weaker" argument also doesn't hold up when you consider that Mummies and Prometheans and Demons all came far later than Mage or Vampire or Werewolf. It's a facile argument based on a misunderstanding of what Kenning or Scrutiny do.

>>48292897
>Vampires definitely do not have the biggest weaknesses, though. They can't watch a sunrise without it hurting and they need blood.
Fire damage, spend vitae to wake up, frenzy, they look like corpses unless they spend more vitae.

I have to agree with the other guy, you're a dumbass.

>werewolves
You clearly don't know much about them.

>Paradox more likely to happen
It's easier to avoid if anything, sunlight exists whether you want it to or not and no one can tell you're a mage anyways.
>and Iron is far more common in the world than silver. Which, if I recall, in 2e Cold Iron is... Iron.
Again, read the book. Cold iron hasn't been shaped or transformed by magic, it must have been forged by hand, not mass-produced, cast, or even created by a machine. As long as changelings touch it they suffer a penalty.

>"The mechanical drawbacks get weaker" argument also doesn't hold up when you consider that Mummies and Prometheans and Demons all came far later than Mage or Vampire or Werewolf.
And Mummies and Demons have even less mechanical drawbacks.

>It's a facile argument based on a misunderstanding of what Kenning or Scrutiny do.
He already posted what Kenning does, you're the one who does not seem to get it. Maybe if you read a book you'll know what we're talking about.

>>48292630

>You still haven't learned to hit shift.
>When the poster has realized they have lost the argument, they resort to moving the goal posts, usually about spelling or formatting issues.

Sniping aside, you're not actually engaging the argument. They're speaking from a purely mechanical basis, and you're trying to use in-universe lore to argue against it. It's not an incorrect counterpoint, just not one relevant to the discussion. You need to appoach this from a purely mechanical standpoint. This may be difficult for you: while your lore knowledge is decent, your actual mechanical and thematic knowledge isn't as strong.

>>48293174

>And Mummies and Demons have even less mechanical drawbacks.

I don't know, while the number of drawbacks has certainly dropped, Descent/Sybaris and Glitches/Cover have enough teeth to make up for the small quantity, especially for the former.

>>48293174
They burn more from a thing that burns everyone, and they need to eat to stay alive. Blood is easier than any energy point besides Glamour, and can do the most. Most vampires also aren't looking like corpses. Even for Elders, they aren't going to be corpselike until under 3 Humanity.
>You clearly don't know much about them.
Then, again, tell me about them. What do you feel I'm wrong about.
>It's easier to avoid if anything, sunlight exists whether you want it to or not and no one can tell you're a mage anyways.
Sunlight exists, yes. But the things you do as a vampire are not going to happen in the sunlight. It's a limitation, but it's not the kind of drawback that is likely to kill you. But on that front, we'll probably just disagree about it. And on whether Werewolves have it worse. Either way I'm sure we can agree that it's not as bad as being a Mummy or Promethean, which ultimately refutes the Anon's point.
>Cold Iron
There's an entire sidebar in Changeling 1e about how gothic architecture and wrought iron fences and cast iron skillets should be more common in your game. *Regular* Iron still cuts through Contracts and Defenses, though 2e does take a different route on how common iron is.

>Demons and Mummies
Demons have hella drawbacks, and Mummies do as well. A Mummy's life is super shitty.

>Kenning
He listed what Kenning does, yes. It doesn't do what Scrutiny does.

>>48293241
>Engage in the argument, but also point out he's not typing well
>get called out for not engaging in the argument
Anon, I'm still pointing out the problems with the argument.

>>48293286
I barely know about Mummies, but they're basically slaves, and start out pretty mindless, judging from the chapter fiction and what I got from the first chapter. Having to juggle Cover is also insane, and Demons have to deal with regular Integrity on top of Compromise, despite some people arguing they don't. The generic Compromises are also pretty damned harsh.

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>>48293286
>>48293695

Having played a lot of Demon, if a storyteller decides to put the squeeze to you with Compromise, Cover management, and leaning hard on any glitches/conditions you get, you're in for a world of pain. Demon doesn't so much have a binary "get fucked" sort of weakness like fire or sunlight, but a more sliding scale of how oppressive the Storyteller wants the God-Machine's presence to be by calling for related mechanics more often. The STG for Demon talks about playstyles being quiet/loud and hard/soft to get that across.

Mummies are weird as fuck in that a lot of their weaknesses or mechanics are things you flat out forget exist, like passive Sybaris or any number of things mentioned outside of the chargen chapter. Otherwise, their entire intended arc is to start out as king shit of fuck mountain, able to chokeslam any tangible threat without much effort, but quickly scale down to merely "well above average" in whatever they're focused on at best, and by the end they're not all that much more frightening than another supernatural shortly out of character generation.

>>48293781
>king shit of fuck mountain

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>>48293870

>>48292157
I kind of lliked M:TAs' Paradox because it was a giant "fuck you" that builds up until it finally exploded.

And there wasn't any "mitigating it into bashing damage rules" so it was something that really made you be careful about invoking paradox.

I'm a bit confused about the actual like, content, of Active Mage Sight.

Is it pretty much just acknowledging the presence of elements under its purview?

With various Unveiling spells or Focused Mage Sight providing additional insight into such situations?

So a car torn to shreds by Spirit Claws would stink of Spirit, but without unveiling you'd know nothing more than a Spirit has been involved with the car lately? Or would that not work? Would it have had to have used Blast or something more innately Ephemeral?

>>48295058
>So a car torn to shreds by Spirit Claws would stink of Spirit, but without unveiling you'd know nothing more than a Spirit has been involved with the car lately?

That, pretty much.

You have to scrutinize or wield a more enlightening spell to know more.

>>48295057
Mitigating it into bashing damage is pretty important. It discourages you from constantly using it in things like fights. And since the danger of releasing it is generally worse...

>>48295058
Well, you'd likely know that a Spirit destroyed the car. Mage Sight is like a Sherlock Scan. Focused Mage Sight is like taking fingerprint dustings.

Anons, what is your opinion about Mage 2E Legacy changes?

I like that there are more tiers to them, but for some reason the example 13th question powers didn't get me excited about playing Magic Sherlock Holmes like the 1E write-up.

Also, how does this mesh with their attempt to not obsolete old books(like Legacies the *)?

>>48295705
You can also get paradox just for fucking up a spell in Mage20, it makes magic in general a bit nastier so the downside is hardly anyone wants to cast.

Though it does mitigate over time.

>>48295259
I was expecting more of a punchline like "instead he's busy watching lesbian blood doll camgirls for research"

>>48295916
They're going to start converting legacies as blog posts, eventually.
No accounting for taste (or reading - Querents are the 11th question).

>>48295916
I like them.
Legacy Yantras are great, Legacy Oblations are the same as they ever were, and the changes to Attainments make them both stronger and weaker.

The fact that they're immune to Quiescence, and sins against Wisdom are very interesting, and a good reason to engage in Left-Handed Witch hunts and blaming.

That someone can cannibalize someone for power, murder them, and steal their soul, all without testing Wisdom, through using Attainments, is pretty spooky.

>>48296360
>immune to Quiescence, and sins against Wisdom
That's a substantial change in 2e because you can now have utterly Enlightened mages that are still positively Left-Handed. Previously many of them would slowly join the Mad. Now, even Abyss linked legacies can strive for enlightenment and ascension - they even have a patron Exarch if they're keen to serve.

>>48291729
>You know, I actually want to know what people's actual problems are with Beast, mechanically.
They didn't read the book. They asked a friend of a friend who read a preview of a version that was an alpha and they said it sucks.

The mechanics are the real saving grace of beast, although their senses could use better wording. Also examples of merging with beast were it explains what happens to your fucking stats. Shouldn't have to go to a forum to figure this stuff out, is all I'm saying. The rest of it is okay, could use a bit of polish.

>>48297321
Hahahaha, funny. You're a funny guy.
Funny joke funny man. An Abyssal Exarch.
Oh, the humor.

Run, they're after you now. You don't talk about the Gate and live.

>>48292409

Kenning is asking your ST questions about magic around you. Mage sight is looking at magic shit and figuring out what it is.

A changeling walks into a room. In the room is a sleepwalker with Exorcist’s Eye (Spirit •) pg 180 cast on himself. The changeling has clarity 6 so his ST reflexively rolls his clarity without telling him. He rolls 2 successes. "as you enter the room you sense the presence of magic, ask me 2 questions."

What do you ask? Common answers Ive heard are;

>is it affecting me?(no)
>could it be used on me?(no)

The changeling knows nothing else.

A Thyrsus walks into that same room. They feel the ting of magic they turn on spirit and life active sight reflexively. Seeing the spell(Opacity 1), the Thyrsus focuses their spirit sight for a revelation. Rolling Gnosis 1 + Spirit 2 - Opacity 1 she sees the surface information; its awakened magic, who cast it that it is a unveiling spell etc. Only after digging deeper can they find any real information about the spell. When they do they know the truth; what the spell is in its entirety.

At a glance you might think one of these is stronger then the other. Kenning only "wins" when you are able to roll clash of wills, and its a dice pool and as anyone who has ever played a game before knows, those dice don't always land the way they are supposed to. For reliable information go mage, for paranoid guessing and deduction go for changeling(with a lot of changelings being very meta they could use all their questions in a row. Example: if 5 changelings got 2 successes each, they could ask 10 questions as a group rather then ask the same questions over and over again).

>>48292409
>they're vulnerable to cold iron now
>and that's more likely to come up than silver?

iron is in 2 camps now. Iron, that ignores all changeling magic, which is everywhere you find old buildings and things people are still too cheep about to make into steel. The other camp is cold iron, which deals aggravated damage and is hard to make, on top of what the other shit does. With more weaknesses you can budget more into a splats powers without them becoming overpowered.

>clarity is fragile
>you can RAISE IT by doing things for free

you can raise it PERIODICALLY by doing things that hurt you, no pain, no gain. Once a chapter if memory serves. Nothing to my knowledge lets them get more just in case they need it. Quick show of hands, who here has lost more then 1 dot of morality in a chapter? Werewolf players put your hands down no one is counting you.

Clarity is fragile and hard to get back. All it takes is a really really back week and you go from clarity 7 to 4, and it could be the end of the damn story before you can get back to 6. Assuming nothing bad happens in the second or third act of a story. After all, when has anything bad ever happened in the climax of a story?

>>48297964
>All it takes is a really really back week and you go from clarity 7 to 4, and it could be the end of the damn story before you can get back to 6.
or you could get it back in one week

>>48297341
"Saving grace"? I mean, I haven't looked over the powers ("create a plague of soullessness" powers were in the playtest/Kickstarter doc) but Heroes are weak, Satiety is kind of annoying, and a lot of the powers mean Beasts can brute force most problems with things like Dragonfire. What mechanics do you like?

>>48297856
Kenning could probably require a list of questions, to keep people from asking "what's going on" (which would contain multiple questions). Even then, they're not going to ever understand something as well as a Mage (though maybe some kind of Kenning Contract would be good, for the Autumn Court type groups).

>>48298122
Loss is more likely to happen than gain.

>>48293695
>>and Demons have to deal with regular Integrity on top of Compromise, despite some people arguing they don't.

Wait, what?
>A demon has a Cover rating instead of Integrity.

>>48298852
If your Cover would have a Breaking Point, that's a Compromise.

>>48298852
I think he's referring to the part where doing something that would cause a breaking point for your Cover(the person, that is) is usually going to cause a compromise for you as well.

EG, a Demon posing as a banker who doesn't like horror movies because of the gore is definitely going to suffer a Compromise if he willingly walks into a room filled with dismembered corpses.

Any updates on One World of Darkness these last months? I've forgotten to check back in a while.

>>48298941

They sold off the slot machine rights. Mostly it's been a lot of interviews, and also they're making a documentary that's called "World of Darkness" but might as well be about VtM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JAEHRyMLag

I assume any actual big announcements are going to be at the Grand Masquerade later this year.

>>48298323
>Loss is more likely to happen than gain.
no, it isn't
because the chances for loss are ridiculous
like failing a roll at the one thing you're good at
while you can GAIN clarity by basically giving into your vice, not things that hurt you

but clarity isn't a weakness of changelings, it's just a shitty attempt at copying werewolf

>>48282282
>Changeling: The Lost
The idea of balancing your "Magical" and "Real" life is interesting to me. The true fae are so moldable into whatever you want them to be, and the setting itself lends itself to many different kinds of genre.

>Question
So, has anyone ran a game in a rural setting? I read some of the books and it always seems to assume it's in a city.

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>>48284020
I know, I enjoy the idea so much but the second I mention it to people say its dumb.

>>48299704
>The idea of balancing your "Magical" and "Real" life is interesting to me
Have you looked into Demon?

>>48299649
Loss is incredibly more likely to happen. It has nothing to do with Werewolf. What are you even talking about?

>>48299649
>like failing a roll at the one thing you're good at

Or seeing something that reminds you of your Durance. Like "spiders" or "a dark place" or "a candle."

>>48299860
I love the idea of Demon, but have NO clue how to run it.

>>48300116
Just watch Person of Interest. Sprinkle on supernatural weirdness as needed.

>>48300261
Also Mr. Robot. It's a small, paranoid group trying to take on the structure of society itself. Largely targeting its infrastructure.

Darlene's a Saboteur, definitely. After this season's opener Angela is seeming like an Integrator. To say Elliott is a Paranoid is an understatement.

>>48300346
Or the Borne identity, and add gothic elements like CyberAngels.

>>48300346
Guardian, Messenger, and Psychopomp, respectively, am I right?

>>48300566
Not sure on the first, but the other two seem right.

>>48300903
Darlene's definitely either a Guardian or a Destroyer.

>>48299649
>because the chances for loss are ridiculous.

Changelings want to play a risk game with their triggers. If they win, they get the Acuity Condition(and a beat just for playing~) and can gain a Clarity. So they want to get close to the trigger without meeting something that will levy a -4 penalty + the penalties she was already under and oh no its a chance die oops your delusional. They want to play it safe enough that nothing goes wrong, but dangerous enough that they can get that sweet, sweet Acuity condition(its really good). They want to avoid the destruction of touchstones and the dreaded Delusional condition(really wish they mentioned the Warped condition, what ever that does)

The trigger " my lost family" might be a flat Resolve + Composure roll(4-6 for most new players, plus touchstone what ever that is) when you go to your buddies house for dinner. This might get a lot worse when an mad horde of goblins crawl down the chimney wearing torn off children's faces screaming "welcome to the party!" that might be a -2~4 penalty. Win the roll, get Acuity. Loose the roll and loose a Clarity, your defense for a turn, and gain the Warped condition. Get a dramatic failure and get the Delusional condition(-2 on your breaking point rolls plus a lot of other really bad stuff, its also persistent.), loose a Clarity and become powerless for the scene unless you embrace the wyrd or spend willpower.

To offset the gamble you got your seeming blessing. Free Clarity for in game sacrifice like shoot from the hip leadership, flaunting society's rules or using violence to solve your problems.

So you play it safe. Pick your battles and pray your battles don't pick you. You keep winning and things go great(remember the pool is resolve + composure; having a high/low clarity doesn't make your pool bigger or smaller). If one bad thing happens right after another and you just can't get that damn Acuity condition you can bank your ONCE A STORY Seeming blessing bail you out.

>>48300346
Paranoid? Is that one of the additional ones, or did you mismember?

>>48301082
>To offset the gamble you got your seeming blessing. Free Clarity for in game sacrifice like shoot from the hip leadership, flaunting society's rules or using violence to solve your problems.
It's also important to keep in mind that each Seeming comes with its own Clarity drop, too. Usually for something related to trying your Seeming Bonus, like fucking up at being a leader, or being shown that you've got weakness.

>>48301279
It's one of the nicknames for Inquisitors.

>>48288769
Not with default Prime sight, but it explicitly is something you can do with one round worth of scrutiny with the Prime 1 Supernal Vision spell.

>>48288970
Alright so, you always have Periphal Mage Sight. This is your activated ability spidey sense from 1e. There are also a few 1 dot attainments (IE simply by having 1 dot in the arcanum you get an ability) that augment this, to let you detect the *presence* of spirits or whatever.

By spending 1 point of mana, you can flick on Active Mage Sight for a scene. This gives you a 1e equivalent Mage sight for all your Ruling arcana by default (IE your path's 2, plus 1 extra if you have a legacy giving you one). With this you can see various shit pertaining to your arcanum, spells cast with it, effects, etc. By spending another point of mana you can add every other arcanum you have dots in.

Lastly, you have Focused Mage Sight. This is when you have something very specific in front of you and you want to peel it apart and know everything about it. You choose one arcana you know and have already in your Active Mage sight. You can make a Revelation roll on the thing without cost, subtracting the Opacity (Which is spell level equivalent, +1 for every complicating factor, +2 for it not relating to the Awakened). If you succeed you get some very vague info about the thing, like "It's Vampires" or whatever.

Enter Scrutiny. You spend a point of willpower and take (-3) to everything except this action until its over. Gnosis + Arcanum extended action, 1 round per roll. If you succeed a given roll, you can spend mana 1 for 1 to add extra successes. Your target successes to reduce the Opacity of the mystery by 1 is the Opacity right now, then your successes loop around to the next level of opacity. So for an Opacity 3, you need 3, then 2, then 1. If you just burn through your mana to get up to 6, you remove all the Opacity immediately.

Once the Opacity is all gone, you can make a Revelation roll again to know all.

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>>48301082
With a changeling, more then pretty much anything else, I feel like having iron hard will is the way to go. Even if it means sacrificing finesse or power.

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>>48297964
Wierdly, much of the old stuff we call 'iron' is less iron then steel.

Wrought iron is nearly pure iron. Old fences, some fire escapes, the Efil Tower.

That's the good stuff.

Where you get fucked is cast iron. Called iron, it's dark metal, it's everywhere..

And it's less pure iron then steel. So don't grab a frying pan and try to take down a pissed off ogre.

>>48301614
>By spending 1 point of mana, you can flick on Active Mage Sight for a scene
You get your Ruling arcana for free. It costs a mana to add a common or inferior arcanum (implied to be 1 mana per arcanum).

new edition of Demon: the Fallen when

>>48301891
After Wraith 20.

>>48301856
I feel that Cast Iron is iron enough for Changeling

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>>48301946
Then steel should be too.

>>48302083
Changelings don't run on logic. I mean, if anything steel is more iron than pure iron. It's iron with the impurities taken out.

>>48302099
Steel is an alloy of iron, carbon, and various other elements, fampai

>>48302099
Wrought iron is nearly pure iron.

Steel is iron with a little bit of carbon (up to about 1%) and most of the time other stuff (chrome and nickle and molybdenum and boron and vanadium and silicone).

Cast Iron is iron with more then 2% carbon.

Cold, hard, naturally occurring hematite is shiny black iron ore.. that is iron and oxygen.

Because we live in an ocean of corrosive gas that bonds with iron so eagerly the purest iron you get is that wrought iron. Naterally occurring iron is always mixed up with oxygen.

>>48302179
Still like 95% iron.

>>48302179
>>48302238
>>48302258
To make steel, you remove most of the impurities, leaving a very little but non-zero amount of carbon. Pig iron (4% carbon) is used to make steel, and that's given some mention in one of the Changeling books. Actual dug-out-of-the-ground iron is even less pure, usually filled with carbon and oxygen. Certain types of steel have other materials, but steel-steel is just iron and carbon.

So basically, "steel" is purer iron. You remove the oxygen and the carbon until you've got a very low amount of carbon that's still there.

But, "Cold Iron" is essentially just something you've made yourself, by hand.
>So-called “cold iron” is even more devastating, particularly to the True Fae. To qualify as “cold iron, the metal cannot have been shaped or transformed by magic. It must have been forged by hand, not mass-produced, cast, or created by a machine. This iron inflicts aggravated damage to the Gentry and Changelings. Even handling or touching iron causes great pain to the True Fae, and changelings, especially as their Wyrd rises, find it uncomfortable at best. Subtract a changeling’s Wyrd from all dice pools while she touches cold iron.
Maybe if you smelt it yourself.

>>48301909
So, never?

>>48301860
Ah, fair, I for some reason thought that the incentive not to spam Active Mage Sight was mana when in fact it is the -2 to non-magic stuff.

How do Proximi Clash of Wills?

They do not have Gnosis nor proper Arcana ratings? Do you just roll the rating of the Spell? Resolve + Composure?

>>48302459

I imagine they just roll a single attribute, like the normal Clash of Wills rules sans the power stat.

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>>48302298

Well, dose a bloomery count as a machine? I feel like yes, but it's also vital to making iron, so let's say no.

So you cook the iron ore in a oven that heats it to close to but not to the melting point of iron, melting off and burning off the other stuff until pretty much only iron is left. Then you take that and heat it, then beat the shit out of it with a hammer to work it into the shape you want.

That's 'wrought iron'. I'm imagining a hammer and anvil don't count as machines (they totally are though) so you can use them.

This stuff is hard, but not too hard. You'd need 4-5 hundred dollars to get the stuff to make it. Once you do, the raw material cost very little, but you'd need a heat source. (traditionally charcoal, but modern you'd use electricity or gas)

>>48302550
By no "machinery", I assume it means that nothing more impressive than a power hammer can be used. i.e. nothing fancy, just good old traditional blacksmithing. Or, even no power hammer, but that's not really mass producing it or anything. So if you do everything from smelting and forging yourself, instead of buying it from a store, that's Cold Iron.

>>48302673
Power hammer is cheating. Find a burly man with a sledgehammer

>>48302550
>>48302673
You'd also need to rip the iron from the ground with hand tools. Depending on where you are that's "going into the garden with a shovel" or "driving 400 miles to get some rocks"

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>>48302716
>Power hammer is her porn name.

>>48302719
I'm assuming getting the iron doesn't matter. Only the forging process matters.

>>48302766
Can a machine made steel sword be made Cold Iron if you reforge it? Like heat it up and re-temper it?

>>48302842
Only if it's dramatically appropriate. Like if you do it as part of a montage scene where you strip away all the modern conveniences of life to rediscover the primal beast within so you can slay the monsters (fae) that lurk beyond the borders of civilization.

Not just because you have a neat sword and want it to count as cold iron

>>48302842
Heating it up wouldn't stop it from being steel. The whole 'iron' part is important.

>>48302842
I was fairly sure the 1e ruling is like ABSOLUTELY no. Once something stops being cold iron it's nearly impossible to reattain.

>>48303295
1e had several different versions of "cold iron". People just treat it as the most difficult one.

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>>48302881
With sparks and shit flying around you with every blow from the hammer.

And you take like, raw hematie and hammer it into the edge.

>>48282282
>What attracts you to your favorite game line?
You can struggle or you can accept your faith. It didnt matter, becouse in the and youll find peace with yourself anyway. Wraith is the game about finding peace.

>>48302459

They just roll the Attribute.

out of the loop. is deviant out?

>>48306297
No
It doesn't even have a subtitle yet

Didn't have much luck last time, but I'm giving it one more try: Does anyone speak Cantonese and have suggestions for the name of a Shenism based Vampire Triad? I'm looking for something as punchy sounding as 'Sun Yee On' and Google Translate has been understandably unhelpful.

>>48301891

So I started reading about the Deceived on your recommendation.
Most of them seem to be like a Muse of sorts, Dealing with Music, Poetry, Song, Dance, Painting, Philosophy.
Except for the Keeper who is this jumbled mess of ideas they don't seem to relate.
I guess the idea is that he is an Oracle, who speaks of Secret Truths, but instead of having him be about Astronomy, he is associated with tatoos, scarification, crawling creatures, and insane enigmatic rambling.
Can you help me make some sense of him? What is he a Keeper of?

>>48302373
Now you're getting it.

>>48302378
You're still incentivized to spam your Ruling Active Mage Sight because you can toggle them with a Reflexive action. The penalty and exhaustion are there to disincentivize having it on at all times.

Shame Apocalypse still applies the penalties and willpower costs. If you run out of willpower it also burns out your eyes.

>>48302459
>>48305550
>>48302470
Which attribute? They use Willpower for casting but Clash of Wills is Gnosis + Arcana vs equivalent.

Do mundanes even get a Clash of Wills, given that it's for supernatural powers? I ask because Incognito Presence (Mind ••) says that anyone trying to remember the subject can do so with a CoW, but the Reach effect makes it so ONLY beings with supernatural effects that would allow a CoW can even try. Isn't the entire point of CoW a contest of two conflicting supernatural powers?

>>48307271
Proximi gifts are supernatural powers

>>48306297
Is there any information on it other than the name?

>>48307774
Oops, meant to ask >>48306312

>>48307760

No, he means the Reach doesn't do anything.

Normally only supernatural beings get to do a Clash of Wills and with the Reach non supernatural beings don't get to do a Clash of Wills...

>>48307774

You have been changed by experimentation, and are now on the run from those who did it.

>>48307760
>>48307797
There's 2 points in the post.

Proximi gifts are supernatural and eligible for CoW and >>48305550 says they just roll "the Attribute". CoW rolls are Supernatural Power Attribute + Power School, neither of which Proximi have. Mages both cast and CoW with Gnosis + Arcana and Proximi use Willpower for their casting pool, so it would match up nicely. Except that Willpower is an Advantage, not an Attribute.

Scanning through the prewritten spells, only Incognito Presence has the inconsistency, so I guess it's just needs errata. The reach effect doesn't do anything. If the intent was to give mundanes a way to try and remember, CoW needs to be replaced with something else.

So my Mage players are probably fighting a Gulmoth tomorrow, and it's sorta been built up as a bit of a big deal at this point, so I think I should probably ask
Is a Rank 1 Gulmoth actually going to be much of a challenge for a Gnosis 1 Acanthus, Obrimos, and Moros(with a little help from a Gnosis 3 Acanthus)?The G3 Acanthus might end up being unable to help, depending on how things go down. I'm considering having her use her 3 dots in Space to make a Ban around the room the fight's gonna happen in, so the players can deal with the Gulmoth with as little collateral damage as possible.

>>48308379

Rank 1 spirits aren't too threatening for a group, no. It helps that Mages don't have any arcana that directly deals with Abyssal entities (afaik, they don't fall under Spirit, which means they probably don't fall under anything), but rank 1 spirits are the kinds of things that even mortals can deal with if they can hit it.

So the question comes down to: how badly can the spirit fuck them up without even materializing, or can they force the fight onto it even if it doesn't?

>>48308536
>arcana that directly deals with Abyssal entities
Gulmoth use the rules for Spirits, so presumably Spirit and bans/banes
Acamoth use the rules for Goetia, so presumably Mind

>>48308536
>how badly can the spirit fuck them up without even materializing, or can they force the fight onto it even if it doesn't?
I built it as something copying various werewolf myths, to a degree, so it can't really do shit without materializing, beyond use its Influence(which basically amounts to 'make people hungry enough that they'd willingly eat each other')
I guess I'll make it Rank 2, then
I realize that it's kind of a lackluster idea, but there's basically nothing to go on as far as what Gulmoth are like, beyond the specific examples in Intruders and Night Horrors, so I made it a rip-off of a Lovecraftian Ghoul

>>48308590

Whoops, you're correct. I missed that sidebar from all those dicks I was sucking.

That doesn't sit well with me, but I guess that's just a houserule for the pile.

>>48308665
They'll probably expand it in future books like they did for Intruders. Making more complicated rules for the core book would have taken up a lot more of the word count.

>>48308590

Fluff wise, I would think you would use your Prime dots to affect them, with the spells being equivalent to the Spirit/Mind/Death ones.

>>48309112

Cool, that means there is something for each path to affect, with fate being used for Fae

>>48309112
It would certainly give Prime more utility than being a Tass peddler.

>>48309163
When the heck are you going to affect Fae?
Obrimos already affects Prometheans (at least according to Dave's Soul Cage)

>>48309358
>I just don't like "Spirit for one, Mind for the other".
Technically it just says they use the mechanics of Spirits and Goetia. Angels use spirit rules too.

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358 KB, 500x710

Fuck, forgot my image
>>48309168
>Whattaya buyin', Stranger?

Also, >>48309112 >>48309163
I feel like the Fae are mostly going to be way too strong for anyone to deal with (unless things like hobgoblins count), and Prime seems like it'd be more reasonable as a way to deal with Qashmal and Angels, as those are in many ways the raw burning fire of Truth in the Fallen World. Plus it just fits better narratively.

I think Gulmoth and Acamoth shouldn't be directly manipulated by any Arcana, and in fact should probably be at a penalty to directly effect with Magic (though not indirectly, like fireballs or whatever). Alternately, have them effected by any Arcana (or any Subtle, since they are technically ephemeral) as the raw untamed power of the Supernal can wrestle with their nonexistence, but at a -2 penalty.

I just don't like "Spirit for one, Mind for the other".

>>48282282
>The Kickstarter for Beckett's Jyhad Diary is live!
>giving money to OnyxPath
Also, isn't advertising against the rules?

>>48309388
>>48309402
Point still stands.

Did the Angel Arcana ever get addressed?

>>48309388

Sometimes a wizard's gotta kick in a Fae's shit. Exiled? More like ASS-iled.

>>48309588
You'd think Arcanthi of all people would know better. They're the mages who literally check themselves so that they don't wreck themselves.

>>48309569

Report the thread and find out.

>>48309388
>Obrimos already affects Prometheans (at least according to Dave's Soul Cage)
That's actually counter to what one of the Promethean (or Mage?) books said. Pyros can't be manipulated by Prime. But I see a lot of 2e stuff taking the "Theory, Practice, and Crossover" sidebar route of doing things, i.e. "it's up to the group".

Even the Demon STG sort of did that, instead of going in depth.

>>48282282
>Favorite game line?
Rebuilding your life from scratch, whilst balancing your very normal human nature, and the supernatural baggage you've acquired. Changeling the Lost has my favorite setting on that alone, since it's the one I feel less prone to being a powerwank.

>>48282282
>What attracts you to your favorite game line?
Fuck monsters. Especially Mages, the deluded know-it-all good-for-nothings. And werewolves too. Fuck those guys. Humanity will be free once they're all gone.

>>48310416

But Mages are 100% human.
A quadriplegic person might see someone in a wing suit glide down a cliff and despise them, but he can learn to do the same, as soon as he realizes that his paralysis is due to his psychology, not physiology.

>>48310416
>Humanity will be free once they're all gone.
ChortlingExarchs.png

>>48310607
Are they? What is this Truth they speak of? Are they truly capable of seeing the world how it "truly is" and understanding it despite the inherent limitations of the human mind and soul? I don't know.
>>48310680
What's so bad about the Exarchs? Is relative stability for mortals bad?

>>48310722
Accepting your cage isn't freedom.

>>48309388
>When the heck are you going to affect Fae?

In my weird Archmaster Mage game there is a player who, for the right favor, will fix your problems with the True Fae, and currently is trying to run a protection racket on the Gentry.

>>48309611
Well he does have Fate 10, Gnosis 10, and Infamous Mentor plus True Friend merits for Mordred the Aeon of Fate. Not to mention the rest of the Archmasters backing him up.

He is actually far more humble than the above writeup would imply though.

>>48310803
>Archmaster Mage
In today's edition of Things That Never Happened...

>>48310762
Is it a cage? Or is it a wall to keep mortals safe? Who knows. The Seers and the Pentacle probably don't know. It's fun to speculate.

>>48310722

They are. At least some of them. But be careful, if it's true that power corupts, it's easier to accept why so many Mages fall and become dangerous madmen.

>>48310722
>What is this Truth they speak of?
Y'all motherfuckers need Prime!

>>48310882
The Exarchs do keep humanity safe, but they're not the ones with the Abyss in their souls. You want the truth? Speak to The Gate. Her siblings forbid listening to him, but what could she possibly say that they're afraid of?

>>48310872

It is a weird game. We started talking about how we like MtAw 2e, then talking about mind canon and fluff, and then brainstorming on how to run a campaign that explores the Multiverse...

In the end all five of us are Storytellers with 2 DMPCs each, and the true challenge is coming up with a story of how they got there in such a way that they EARN their powers, and don't feel like a bunch of Mary Sues.

Almost half of the time each session is spent talking about phylosophy and theology, and what each Archmaster would believe from his perspective.

>>48310969
Isn't the Gate the one who protects the world from the Abyss?

>>48310872
Why wouldn't it? There's an entire supplement dedicated to playing Archmasters. Are you saying people don't play that?

>>48311155
There are lots of suppliments and games that go entirely unused. Bought, sure, but unused.

The Gate is the Exarch that found/named/created the Abyss and put it into humanity's soul to seal the way to Ascension behind them. It doesn't protect the world from shit. The secret order of the gate gets the ability to summon and bind abyssals into service.

>>48311746
I feel like there are enough people in the world that at least one group has played with every supplement, and Imperial Mysteries is one of the more liked ones. There are probably more than a few people who've played Archmage games.

Also, I heard it that Gate was the one who kept the Abyss from devouring the world, and let enough of it in to strengthen the Lie but not ruin the Exarch's toys. Where is the info about The Gate?

>>48311746

Wut? Is this just
>Implied
or is it actually spelled out somewhere?
If so, which book?

>>48311746
>>48311805

The Gate is that old hermit guy by the bonfire outside the cave that is said to be the 11th Aeon, right?

Or am I miss-remembering something?

>>48311880
That's The Old Man of the Abyss.

>>48311805
>>48311825
Seers of the Throne suppliment

>>48311880
Misremembering something. The Gate is an Exarch. The hermit on the shore of the Ocean Oroboros is the Aeon of the Abyss, but he's in the Astral.

>>48311880
Wait, what cave?

>>48311900

Thanks.
I guess it's time to read 'Seers of the Throne' book.
Just to make sure, it's not 'Reign of the Exarchs'.
Because that is more of an adventure book, right?

>>48311912

The one you walk into when you want to pledge your soul to the Abyss

>>48311969
Right. The Seers of the Throne book is called "Seers of the Throne"

>>48311994
The Hollow? That's a hut.

>>48312216

Hmm...
Just reread Astral Realms, and you are right.
My mind must have changed it to a cave since it feels more fitting somehow. I think I imagined it like the cave Luke goes into in Empire Strikes Back, with Yoda replaced by the Other (the Old Man)

How do you guys imagine it? Like Baba Yaga's hut without chicken legs?

Also 'Citadel' is part of the name and that clashed in my mind with the idea of a hut. But I guess clashing and contradictory ideas are almost appropriate for the Abyss.

>>48311746
>The secret order of the gate gets the ability to summon and bind abyssals into service.

Interestingly, the Gatekeepers are described as not being Seclesti, or controlled by the Abyss.
More importantly, they are not using Abyssal magic, but secret Supernal rotes and rituals taught to them by the Gate.
And their role in ending large Abyssal intrusions seems to suggest that however bad the Gate might be for using the Abyss to achieve his goals, he has not succumbed to the direct influence and control of the Abyss. Even if many of his Gatekeepers regularly do.

So has anyone here ever played Demon: the Fallen?

>>48312897
No, nobody has ever played Demon the Fallen.

>>48312897

I read the conversion guide.
It's pretty funny because the two games are completely different and nothing alike so the only thing the conversion guide can do, is describe how each system works separately, with only the weakest of attempts at combining them...

I haven't read Inferno, but from what I read about it, it would be a much closer counterpart to DtFallen than DtDescent.

>>48312001

>why did they have to make it so confusing

>>48307222
Sigh, I guess Atamajakki isn't here to answer my mummy questions.

Anyone else care to chip in on how to make sense of the Deceived one called The Keeper?

Is there a book that goes into detail on Spirit Court intrigues and politics?
Or which books describe the highest rank(6+) Spirit entities.
I skimmed Werewolf the Forsaken 1e and Book of Spirits, and only saw information on ranks 1-5. Did I scroll past it, or is it really all left up to GM fiat?

>>48313830
Rank 6+ ephemeral entities don't have solid information anywhere, just like supernatural tolerance 6+ splats
The best you'll get is probably Imperial Practices, for now; at least until we get a book for Werewolf about Boddhisatvas/PU6+ characters.

Otherwise, yes, it's really left up to ST fiat, because a Rank 5 Spirit is already pretty fucking strong, and there generally isn't a need for solid mechanics past that point.

>>48313219
>>48307222

Hey, sorry about that.

The Sixth Guild was just as much about witnessing cosmic truths as it was about performing art; their chosen Relic type is the most ephemeral and the only one to naturally occur as a product of the universe. I think the Keeper's contradictory rules as mad prophet and keeper of animals actually makes some sense when you look to classic augury (seeing divine favor and the future in the flights of birds and movements of other animals) and different types of divination. Compared to the other artists, philosophers, priests, scribes, smiths, merchants, and slave-drivers, he was almost certainly the Temakh to spend the most time outside the walls of Irem (until we see a Su-Menent who hunted rare animals for their Uter, of course).

He's my favorite Temakh alongside The Dancer.

>>48299704
I live in a TINY town and my friend keeps trying to see chronicles here. He doesn't wanna play werewolf, but I think it would work better with werewolf. They want to start a One World By Night sabbat group here, I have no idea how that would work because there's nothing here- a shopping center, lots of bars and churches. No night clubs or really good museums or sinister corporate headquarters or anything you'd expect from a game like this.

Maybe a lot of Gangrel Antitribu and really pissy kolduns.