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>Latest News
The Kickstarter for Beckett's Jyhad Diary is live!(Technically the latest news is Beast&Exalted shirts, but I doubt anybody gives a fuck about that)
http://theonyxpath.com/the-deluxe-becketts-jyhad-diary-kickstarter-is-now-live/
This week's Monday Meeting Notes:
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>Question
Whats the most snowflake character you have seen?
>>48242119
That hasn't been stated anywhere. But even if it did, it'd just do Lethal to vampires, via this:
>Those few terrible things that cause aggravated wounds to mortals cause only lethal harm to vampires.
Head attacks do is stun if you do more damage than the target's stamina. (That can be rather difficult with vampires, considering Resilience.)
This is bad enough, since you can stunlock enemies to death via it.
>>48242294
So I guess staking them in their sleep and setting them on fire or ganging on them are the only ways for hunters to reliably threathen vampires now, uh?
>>48242391
Yep. Especially considering Quicken Sight is a real easy Devotion to get, and it turns them into bullet-dodgers.
Vampires are finally more than bulletproof humans.
Which is as it should be, a vampire is supposed to be a monster, a hunter shouldn't be able to reliably 1v1 a vampire.
>>48242419
I don't know, it seems a bit excessive. Bladed weapons weren't that much of a weakness, especially since vampires have physical disciplines and could use firearms against mortals. They mostly gave a way for hunters to actually be a threat and a way for vampires to kill each other without Protean.
>>48242120
>This week's Monday Meeting Notes:
>http://theonyxpath.com/monday-no-tuesday-meeting-notes-monday-meeting-notes/ *
step it up fagness
http://theonyxpath.com/to-be-continued-monday-meeting-notes/
Can anyone speak Cantonese? I need names for two vampiric triad organisations. One's a amoral but spiritual sheninist group, the other is basically the Invictus as an organised crime syndicate. Thanks.
>>48242120
>Whats the most snowflake character you have seen?
The Obrimos in my Mage game is an occult detective. The player apparently never heard of Dresden or Constantine(or any of the other thousands of occult detectives who exist) before the game, so he thought this was a really unique idea.
>>48242250
I think a 3rd gen Lasombra would fit perfectly
>>48242294
I feel like this is a case of taking the written rules to overly literal extremes.
There are no rules for decapitating heads to begin with. If there were, they probably would kill a vampire (or a werewolf, or anything else).
>>48242878
>The player apparently never heard of Dresden or Constantine before the game, so he thought this was a really unique idea.
I once made a character in a Magical Girl Tri-Stat game using Saber art. Apparently her personality was basically Nanoha, though I still haven't seen beyond the first episode.
I also did a similar thing and made a character based on Dresden after only seeing the old TV show and reading White Night and nothing else.
I'd recommend that as a way to make characters. It's interesting. Rip off something you barely know. Especially if it has a lot of fan art, the fans are probably going to focus on one particular aspect. I know Cloud Strife's personality is different in all the doujin I've read from when I actually finally got to play the game and instead of being a quiet introspective shy prettyboy he's a foul mouthed asshole terrorist.
>>48242878
What's snowflake about that?
>>48243840
Well, to be fair, she's also trying to be a Fate character
I dunno which one, but the player kept asking questions about being able to do specific things with Prime and/or Forces, and I can only assume it's because he's trying to copy a character from Fate for the 10th time
>>48243985
I know who you are, and you're making shit up again. Did Exalted not teach you anything? If you have any actual complaints about the character, bring them up to the player and not here.
>>48244133
I'm not complaining about anything
The character has been generally a useful addition to the game
I just don't really have any massively snowflake-y stories related to CofD/WoD beyond this guy making something he thought was unique but was actually the most common urban fantasy character concept there is
I haven't been keeping up with 2e since I got Blood and Smoke. Could someone fill me in on how the other games ended up being?
I have a birthday soon and I'm leaning toward more WoD.
>>48244278
>Requiem 2e
Hammers out the kinks and makes the setting much better in terms of theme and tone; in some ways its better than the later games
>Demon
A game where every player can derail everything, and your basic character type is hard to play
>Werewolf 2e
An amazing improvement that makes being radically fixes problems and focuses the themes much better
>Beast
Divisive, but even worse, directionless. Don't play it unless your group is, like, Vigil or Awakening gurus and know how to make that kind of "you have a template, the rest is up to you" sort of thing work.
>Changeling 2e
Not actually out yet, but we've had plenty of playtesting material. Pretty neat, and it focuses on troupe personalized cities and wants to get rid of "you're always in moping mode" as the default.
>Mage 2e
The characters are powerful, but they're fucking wizards. As with everything else, it's all been recontextualized and the themes are focused.
>Chronicles of Darkness (the corebook)
Overall an improvement on 1e, even if the default suggestion is a God-Machine Chronicle (and as such reprints a bunch of an existing book). Gives new subsystems for Investigation, monster creation, crafting, and chases.
>Mortal Remains
A Hunter stopgap, it's basically a Spirit Slayers/Night-stalkers/Witchfinders book for Changelings/Prometheans/Sin-eaters/Mummies/Demons; it has two new Compacts and two new Conspiracies, as well as a 2e update for the corebook material, and a simple monster creation template. Beast is getting a Mortal Remains... eventually.
>Dark Eras
Great idea, great for making new things. It's a massive book (with another on the way) for playing games set in historical periods. It has a ton of them and can even be used for making fantasy games. It's got some good shit, and the Werewolf/Mage Neolithic Era is amazing and has a lot of plot hooks. Definitely worth it if you're into that kind of thing.
Oh, there was also a Geist RMC, but eh.
>>48242391
Vampires don't heal naturally. You can beat one to death if it doesn't have a lot of blood points to heal with.
Also fire does agg damage. And magic.
>>48244626
So magical fire is basically a death sentence.
>>48244667
It does agg damage like regular fire. You might be able to control it better
Why would a Malkavian posses Obtenebration?
>>48244962
Because he is crazy :^)
Jokes aside, Sabbath have it eay due to all the blood sharing.
Cammies...not so much.
Except maybe helping out a Lasombra Antitribu on the run from his sabbath counterparts in exchange for teaching stuff or being a Sabbath mole.
>>48244578
Thanks, sounds like I have some gift ideas. Are there any good expansion for the discerning Blood and Smoke owner?
>>48244962
because he's in the sabbat?
>>48245021
Yeah I was thinking about the Antitribu thing but I wasn't sure, I don't actually know whether the game is a Cammy or Sabbat game yet so the other thing I hadn't thought of at all, so thank you again.
>>48245104
Obtenebration is hard to get man.
Why not be a lasombra spawned caitiff?
Caitiff are the coolest guys anyway.
>>48245193
It's just an idea I'm playing with senpai, I always have a hard time with characters and go all over the place with concepts.
>>48245278
Well, think about maybe going for a lasombra spawned caitiff..who therefore has a good reason to have obtenebration.
Maybe he got kicked out by his sire when it came out and some half loony malk took him in and showed him the ropes...thats how he learned obsfuscate maybe or other disciplines.
Works best when Sabbath though.
>>48244578
>your basic character type is hard to play
Genuinely curious what you mean by this.
>>48245337
Yeah I could do that, appreciate it. Though the problem is if it's a Camarilla game. Still it's just a theoretic character, nothing guaranteed. Still, I appreciate the help.
>>48245491
in a cam game you could always have worked as a mole for the local prince infiltrating the local sabbat. you'd most likely need to be unbondable or have some way to deal with the blood ties. possibly being bound to someone else that you regularly drink from, but that has its own problems.
>>48245048
None yet. There's some playtest/spoiler material for Secrets of the Covenants, and three Bloodlines on the blog, but that's about it. Rose seems to basically run the CofD parts of Onyx Path, so she's been a bit busy, and Vampire has suffered from it. Likewise Changeling took a massive setback when David Hill got sick and/or pissed off at the internet.
Werewolf got a supplement before Vampire.
That said, there's the Strix Chronicle Anthology. Oh, there's actually Anthologies out for Vampire, Demon, Beast, Werewolf, Mage, and Promethean.
>>48245365
A Demon is completely human, with human emotions and human feelings.
But they're also completely in control of how those emotions are presented and they're more paranoid than most people treated Changelings. Around mortals, you're displaying emotions that might not match up to how you feel, while around Demons you're either playing up some emotions while downplaying others to present a false impression, or, since everyone would know those expressions are a lie (even when they really do match up with your real feelings), you'd be dull and monotone. Try playing that without corpsing at the table.
>>48244962
"Madness Network"
>>48244962
Because he's Nobody?
>>48245560
That'd make a lot of sense, I like that.
>>48245636
Hold the fuck up. Just trying to make sure I'm not going crazy, The Brotherhood of Dada were Doom Patrol villains last I recall. DP is DC, so the Avengers should have never actually faced them, right?
>>48245840
This is fanart. With fanart...don't expect things to conform to rational logic.
I'm half surprised you didn't call me out for suggesting Mr Nobody as Malk with Obtenebration.
>>48245928
I have no fucking clue what Obtenebration is, so I can't say whether or not it's a good idea.
>>48245950
Obtenebration is shadow manipulation, It's powered by the Antediluvian of the Lasombra.
Are there any news about Hunter and Promethean?
>>48242120
>Whats the most snowflake character you have seen?
Not sure if this one would qualify as the most snowflake, but it was certainly the player's fetish and he got kicked out half a year after.
>Player is a goth who loves to complain about how horrible his life is and thrives in being miserable
>His first character got killed (different story) makes a second one
>It's a Brujah with bright blue hair
>A tough biker chick
>Daddy issues
>Makes it a point to mention to me that she was romantically attracted to her dad
>Puts almost all of his dots into Appearance and Subterfuge (Seduction)
>Biography is full of angst; she's angsting over her dead dad, a human hunter that is after her, her sire who is a massive dick to her
>Talks about her sire, how he is super hot but is very abusive towards her, hits her and orders her around; she hates him but wants to be submissive to him at the same time
>Her biography literally had the line "Sees all women as competition and thinks that men are only good when she can get what she wants from them; if she can't seduce them, she will beat them up until they give in"
I could go on at some point, that character was amazingly bad but fun to watch. like a trainwreck
New to the system, is it just me, or is Professional Training super useful?
>>48246586
Not as useful as you think, but yes. I give three dots to my players for free to round out their social/backstory stuff.
Can hobgoblins join a court or like... be tamed?
Like say the Winter King manages to impress a couple of the things and they swear to serve her.
Is that possible or are they too much like the fae for this to be possible?
When is this Beckett shit going to end
>>48246629
you can have hobgoblin pets
anyone can technically join a freehold, it just involves agreeing to an oath
>>48246586
yes, being professionally trained is a big bonus in life and so in the game
>>48246602
Okay, though I suppose I meant super useful as universally useful. Just about every Splat uses skills with their special powers, having bonuses on specific skills seems rather useful, and you kind customize it to fit your build/character.
>>48246815
apparently it doesn't help with supernatural powers
I think the most Mary Sue thing I've ever seen was this odd Tremere faction being used by the ST.
One of the Pyramid leaders had an interest in spiritualism and magic so they were promoting a small group of vampires who had some odd form of druidism they believed in. Part faith part magic it was open to any vampire who wanted to join, and had contact with some of the other splats.
This thread has too much reality deviancy, and not enough discussion of the brave men, women, and constructs that protect our reality from being torn apart at the seams.
With that in mind: what's your most memorable kill of a reality deviant, /tg/ ?
>>48246972
I want Division Six to leave.Not really though, they have grown on me. I just wish they were cowboy Delta Green.
>>48246879
Oh... I mean, I guess that makes sense. But it doesn't really say as much, now does it?
>>48246793
Hobgoblin Pets..... Like the more bestial things like the weird mounts and so on? I'm talking about the more human like ones.
>>48247201
you can also have hobgoblin slaves
>>48247166
it makes the difference more clear when it talks about supernatural abilities and the fact that they aren't skill rolls
>>48247126
Maybe you'll get your wish, Atamajakki.
Which is better; the Kindred book on Asia and India, or the one detailing the vampires of Africa?
>>48246461
Take away the Vampire bit, and her being a Biker, and I know that character in real life.
>she even had blue hair for a bit
>>48242832
I guess not. Thanks anyway.
>>48247998
the Kindred of the East book has a completely different race of vampires and a very different array of powers where as the african kindred are just a slight variation of the normal ones. both books are fairly interesting.
>>48245634
Deamon also hands everyone a giant FUCK THE GAME button to push if they ever get bored.
>>48242832
>>48248176
Have you tried Google Translate?
If your players don't speak Cantonese then it should be good enough.
>>48248606
I gave it a whirl, but the my attempts didn't provide anything as punchy as the actual triad names.
>>48248402
Are you referring to Going Loud?
With the new explosive rules in the hurt locker, how exactly does the Eliminator Cannon in Flowers of Hell work? I was under the impression that it worked like a normal attack when being used in the launcher mode, rolling the attack and adding successes to the base damage of 3.
There is a bit of a rules conundrum here, since the Eliminator Cannon's rounds lack new characteristics like Force, so I'm unsure how to proceed with it.
>>48249369
>lack new characteristics
Give it appropriate characteristics.
>>48247166
To be fair, Professional Training isn't actually in the Supernatural books. If its in Mage, I think it's in the mortal appendix (or I just skimmed over it).
>>48247910
Jakki loves Division Six.
>>48248402
That was covered under
>every player can derail everything
And I don't just mean Going Loud. I mean the way they have sketchy Quantum fate and reality manipulation powers.
Any tips for running an action heavy politics game? I've never run an action game before, so if there's anything I should watch out for it'd be good to know. Game is Requiem 2E if it matters.
>>48250216
It's in the Rules Revisions Appendix of Demon.
>>48249369
After looking at the chart I've noticed that Force tends to be one lower than the damage rating so I've been going with that as a rule of thumb.
>>48250216
Daemon is a great game. It's just too bad they couldn't get the license to do it right.
>>48250671
It isn't really that Transformers. I don't really think an actual Transformers game would be that great, since playing a car isn't interesting.
So is the general advice for setting up for a chronicle in any given city just "google 'CITY mythology'"?
Anybody got any other advice?
>>48252690
America > everything else
Fuck the old world
>>48252690
many cities have books about the old wise tales about the area and where all the haunted houses are. its always a good place to start. sometimes they'll have websites or pamphlets about the ley lines in the area. or talk to local occult store owner.
>>48252690
>Anybody got any other advice?
a lot is gonna depend on the specific city
advice for new york won't fit for venice
I'm compiling a playlist for Changeling: The Lost and I need suggestions.
I've already seen the Onyx Path playlists for both CtL & CtD. My current playlist, the Summer & Winter Court are both over-represented.
>>48242120
I feel like the thread needs to have this picture.
>>48253617
>>48253549
I always felt "Fair Game" by The Like made for great song to introduce a big Spring Court party, and the court ethos in general.
Switching partners like a square dance,
Just watch where you're going,
There are limbs akimbo, flying wildly,
Just watch out now, don't get hit!
You want in our scene?
Hungry like the wolf.
This wasn't my dream, but every day keeps getting better!
We only look mean, crazy like a fox.
Things aren't how they seem, right?
It's all fair game, anyway.
It's all fair game, anyway.
Just a teeny bit amoral,
Fiercely pessimistic, but we're one big family!
What's that darling,
Who says family doesn't kiss?
Oh every gang's a bit incestuous.
It's just a game and if you know the rules you can't get hurt!
We're all the same, a bit tempestuous,
But we're just restless, right?
It's all fair game, anyway.
It's all fair game, when you play.
Have you the heart and have you got the guts?
It's not a sport, but who says life should be so boring?
We find your rules a bit extraneous.
We leave you breathless, right?
It's all fair game, anyway.
It's all fair game, anyway.
It's all fair game, when you play.
The rules are strange, but aren't they great?
>>48253704
Interesting suggestion, it's really bouncy.
>>48253788
Yeah. It's poppy and...pretty hollow. Good for a first glimpse at the Spring Court. What I feel many in the Court try and act like. Whether or not there's depth behind that depends on the Courtier.
It probably provides some contrast to the other Courts' selections, I'm guessing.
>>48253549
Fall..
The Carnival of the Animals VII (Aquarium) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsD0FDLOKGA
You are utterly familiar with this music. Now you know what it's called.
Toccata and Fugue, Bach. https://youtu.be/IVJD3dL4diY
Way too on the nose, but COME ON! You've got to have it.
https://youtu.be/IVJD3dL4diY
You can go pretty deep into classical here.
The day the world went away https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmrgN4FuOGQ
Some nine inch nails, for another bit of dark fall mood.
Spring..
The Devil's Backbone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUMiEkMjtOQ
It's easy to find love songs, but I wanted ones that reflect how very bad an idea love is sometimes.
Maybe more later, if these are working for you?
>>48253865
>The Carnival of the Animals VII (Aquarium)
That always sounds cold and wintry to me.
>>48253859
It does have a nice contrast to the post-rock and alt-country gloom & doom that's currently filling the list.
>>48253549
>Spring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOC_q0NLTk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nky4me4NP70
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEo3m8eHl3k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GBT37_yyzY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2fCcggNkTs
>Fall/Autumn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hts6PzULHSY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J5mE-J1WLk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXHj_EW_JpQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1hZ1wbPcnU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhaEt2Hdod8
I'd recommend browsing the artists of all that shit for other stuff that might fit, too. Granted, I repeated artists a couple of times.
>>48253881
It could work for that. It's haunting, but it's also quite cold. I guess it depends on how cold you see fall as..
>The Devil's Backbone
Oh Lord, Oh Lord, what have I done?
I've fallen in love with a man on the run
Oh Lord, Oh Lord, I'm begging you please
Don't take that sinner from me
Oh don't take that sinner from me
Oh Lord, Oh Lord, what do I do?
I've fallen for someone who's nothing like you
He's raised on the edge of the devil's backbone
Oh I just wanna take him home
Oh I just wanna take him home
Ooooooooooo
Ooooooooooo
Oh Lord, Oh Lord, he's somewhere between
A hangman's knot, and three mouths to feed
There wasn't a wrong or a right he could choose
He did what he had to do
Oh he did what he had to do
Ooooooooooo
Ooooooooooo
Give me the burden, give me the blame
I'll shoulder the load, and I'll swallow the shame
Give me the burden, give me the blame
How many, how many Hail Marys is it gonna take?
Don't care if he's guilty, don't care if he's not
He's good and he's bad and he's all that I've got
Oh Lord, Oh Lord, I'm begging you please
Don't take that sinner from me
Oh don't take that sinner from me
>Sounds more like how a Spring Courter got into this mess to begin with.
>>48253883
>>48253889
Oh, if you want some more variety, allow me to add some links to this
>Spring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sL1f9Q25sM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPsyynjHpbY
>Autumn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VfjAdYbKQ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ddd70PMxTE
Angel of Small Death and the Codine Scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bmp4QWzHak
Feels a bit spring, or at least describing a Spring Court that's gotten too damn close to playing like the Gentry.
I watch the work of my kin bold and boyful
Toying somewhere between love and abuse
Calling to join them the wretched and joyful
Shaking the wings of their terrible youths
Freshly dissolved in some frozen devotion
No more alone or myself could I be
Looks like a strain to the arms it were open
No shortage of sordid, no protest from me
With her sweetened breath, and her tongue so mean
She's the angel of small death and the codeine scene
With her straw-blonde hair, her arms hard and lean
She's the angel of small death and the codeine scene
Feeling more human and hooked on her flesh I
Lay my heart down with the rest at her feet
Fresh from the fields, all fetor and fertile
Bloody and raw, but I swear it is sweet
With her sweetened breath, and her tongue so mean
She's the angel of small death and the codeine scene
With her straw-blonde hair, her arms hard and lean
She's the angel of small death and the codeine scene
And lease this confusion, I'll wander the concrete
Wonder if better now having survived
Jarring of judgement and reasons defeat
The sweet heat of her breath in my mouth I'm alive
With her sweetened breath, and her tongue so mean
She's the angel of small death and the codeine scene
With her straw-blonde hair, her arms hard and lean
She's the angel of small death and the codeine scene
With her sweetened breath, and her tongue so mean
She's the angel of small death and the codeine scene
With her straw-blonde hair, her arms hard and lean
She's the angel of small death and the codeine scene
>>48253865
This playlist is for my own personal use, I enjoy the classical even if we are all overexposed to it.
Here's just a small scattering of what I have:
Spring: https://youtu.be/SEYjQWotbM8
https://youtu.be/4e1jgqX0Y8g
Summer: https://youtu.be/4sL-wu5oa1w
https://youtu.be/OHTLioJGXb4
Autumn: https://youtu.be/CcVuHaAnA4o
https://youtu.be/qbaKEt5BtHo
Winter: https://youtu.be/4OK1kDLj8MM
https://youtu.be/4-PkAQcuZOw
I still can't believe how bad the V20 ready made characters are
And I'm not saying that just because of the art
>>48254019
Wild guess, but Angel of Small Death is fae, and fucking trouble. It even has the escape from the hedge in the last verse before the choirs repeats.
>>48254041
Yeah, I feel like people could have done better by asking people to post their NPCs.
>>48253889
A few of these found their way to my playlist. Keaton Henson among others.
>>48254041
>>48254099
I felt like the V20 Ready Made Characters were interesting, and while a few are bland, most of them are characters I'd put in my game (well. I'd put in Requiem, where they don't have to be forced into the stereotype clans).
Except then I actually looked over their sheets. Forget "oh no, the fat drag queen has Appearance (Unforgettable) 5". I mean half of them aren't even created properly and also seriously look at this fucking bullshit. Who the fuck printed this?
I honestly don't trust these people to stat their own characters. Every time I've seen an "official" character sheet, they've made so many mistakes. One of the characters in the Demon quickstart has Inspiring, but Presence 2. I can't even remember if he had Expression at all.
>>48254197
Yeah, NPC's having absurd, nonsensical stats is sort of a World of Darkness tradition. I remember, I think, a non-supernatural small woman with strength 4 in one of the By Night books.
>>48254197
Clearly they study aspects of science in a scientific manner, it's a thing in interdisciplinary studies. Completely useless for a game, though.
I used to think the Men in Black were weak, comedic even.
Holy fuck those bastards are fast as hell, and stronger than even the Thyrsus.
And even if you kill them, they just come back. In fact, killing them increasing the time they have to hunt you down with.
>>48254245
I don't even (mostly) care about that. I mean, especially with oWoD's set up, you kind of had to put stuff at 4 or 5. Oh no, the social character has the stat that all social interaction relies on. But for this shit? Someone actually had to sit there and think about which specialty would be best and holy fuck they thought "Science" would be an acceptable "Science" specialty?
Not to mention that several of the characters have Specialties when they've only got 1 or 2 dots in a skill. It's ridiculous.
>>48254287
I'll study your science.
What's even weirder is that "Drugs" is basically what the character is all about, and for some reason they didn't even think of that.
>>48254197
that could just mean specialising in the philosophy of science generally. Experimental design, operationalizing data, thesis design etc
>>48254347
That'd be more of an Academics thing.
>>48254675
so is Science really. Some specialities can probably be flexibly applied
>>48253549
It's kind of unsurprising as Summer and Winter are the actual mythological fae courts, Spring and Autumn are *welcome* but WoD-only additions.
As I am a horrid weeblord, I'd recommend most of the tracks in the Yuri Kuma Arashi OST for Changeling.
So, I want to run a late Greek/early Roman Vampire campaign using Dark Ages: Vampire. What could I expect aside from sightly stronger Cainites and more fae?
>>48255431
Don't forget to read Requiem For Rome for more Roman information
>>48254245
I once took the stats of an normal beat cop from the back of the nWoD core book.
To make that character as a player required about 100xp, which nestles right in the middle of the suggested xp for "Established Kindred" and "Movers and Shakers". The fact that said beat cop had the same xp as a centuries old heavy weight in vampire society is what made me realise that the stats given to npcs has no relation at all to the system for players.
Hey /tg/, quick question about Mage 2e. Can you make rote spells only from the skills your order trains, or can you use all skills? I'm asking because the wording is confusing me and I might be too stupid to understand.
>>48256423
>Can you make rote spells only from the skills your order trains, or can you use all skills?
You can use any skill you want, you'll just get one extra die if you use an Order skill.
>>48256423
*You* can make a Rote spell out of anything, so long as you're a Master in that Arcanum. WhenifI run it, I'm going to limit the players to only being able to purchase Rotes that use their Order's Specialties. Anything else will require actual work, whether that means actually finding the Rotes, getting a teacher, or just having high status is dependent on the Rote. In general, though, (and I'm too lazy to open the book and look through it, so don't quote me) you can have any Rote. Order Rote Specialties are just... well, exactly what they sound like. Skill Specialties for Rotes.
But keep in mind that he Rotes you spend your XP on normally and the Rotes you create yourself are very different. Even if you say "I want a Rote with Athletics", you're just learning that from someone else who within the narrative framework knew that Rote with that Skill. Or more likely from a Grimoire or Scriptorium.
The Rotes you "buy" should generally be limited, as opposed to just anything you want. Much like anything else you spend your Experiences on, you should narratively work towards getting your rotes, instead of just spending the XP and saying it's there. You *are* doing that, right, and not just buying three dots of Fighting Style because you realized you were getting your ass kicked?
>>48254347
Reality deviants lack enlightenment, and thus cannot learn the true powers of science, no matter how hard they try.
What's the spookiest thing you've seen in your game?
>>48256734
Four players who sat checking youtube, imgur, 4chan and reddit instead of paying attention when I introduced a major NPC.
>>48256777
This got them killed, right?
>>48256794
Sort of. It killed the game, and any games for the foreseeable future too.
>>48256841
Gotta go out with a bang and not a whimper.
>>48256875
My interest for gaming with them went to 0, I don't care if there should be an impressive finale to say "fuck you" to them. I simply don't care enough about the game any more to do that.
>>48256777
it was your dm pc, wasn't it?
some trans 12 year old golden child
>>48256734
Haunted locations stop being spooky when you have Dimensional Science 4, and start being target-rich environments.
>>48257048
Nope. It was a local vampire noble. They've been travelling about lately.
To be specific, a Nosferatu of indeterminate age with a bunch of disturbingly bestial traits. (Basically, I made up a Nosferatu Bloodline with the oWoD Gangrel curse.)
>>48242120
>Whats the most snowflake character you have seen?
Someone once tried to sell me the concept of a female Blood Brother who'd broken free from her fellow Blood Brothers' hive mind with no negative side effects. This character was also to join the Camarilla, and her personality was basically "I'mma do what I wanna do, I'm a strong independent woman who don't need no man to tell me what I'mma do, and I'mma talk smack about powerful vampires like the Prince openly and be totally super cool and awesome, ah-kay?".
Now, I'm a fairly tolerant and easygoing person, and I don't mind characters that break from the norm and make use of exotic bloodlines and all that... but this character's concept was the first and only one to ever make me say "Not a snowball's chance in hell, you crazy bitch".
>>48256734
I guess it wasn't very spooky, but it was very disconcerting. Image almost related.
We had a mission to investigate an abandoned science facility. The entrance was completely uncooperative to our efforts, so we had our Ahroun try and brute force their way in. Turns out the entire backside of the door was massive thick strands of spiderwebs.
Naturally... the place contained spiders. Giant spiders. Giant spiders that grew out of the top halfs of the no longer human scientists. Giant spiders that skittered around unflinchingly as the remaining body and limbs of the humans dangled and flailed below them.
Needless to say, once we were done we torched the place to the ground.
How would you do the Night of the Long Knives with Vampires?
>>48242120
nice thread pic
So are slayers with high torment in D:TF just sort of dementors?
>>48258071
>D:tF
>>48258079
wot
>>48257712
The easiest way is to strike in daylight, when your targets can't use most of their more dagerous powers and can't communicate or travel.
Operation SUNBURST envisions the use of NWO surveillance assets backed by Progenitor biotaggants to identify and locate key hemophage personnel; then a series of lightning raids beginning just after daybreak to eliminate all targets under the guise of a major counter-terrorism exercise.
>>48258649
I was thinking of Vampire on Vampire in the 40's, but you did remind me that I hadn't considered Ghouls.
>>48258178
Demon the Fallen shares its abbreviation with Down to Fuck. Of course being WW this isn't exactly wrong either, but it is a bit undescriptive. After all, so much in WoD is down to fuck....
>>48258943
o-oh
>>48258676
Well, my first bit of advice is to disregard bloodsucking nazis, acquire technocratic agents. Assuming you're set on filthy reality deviants, then pulling a coup will probably mean finding out where all of your targets sleep during the day and hitting them when they can't do anything, using mortal agents. If you can get most of your targets like that, you can clean up the night after.
>>48258943
>>48259009
No it's not that, just that people even thinking about that trash that was Demon the Fallen it's just plain funny.
>>48248091
Jesus Christ how horrifying
>>48247126
M-my twin!
>>48259953
I want DtF 20 more than pretty much anything else.
>>48261973
same
>>48247126
Embrace the Panopticon.
If you kill one of the bodies of a Hive-Soul, can you keep the other bodies alive with Time? I'm sure you could brute force it with Life by constantly healing the 1 Agg/turn, but that's torture.
Slow day.
I may use the thread as a scratchpad and start thinking to myself how to handle some offbeat ideas.
>>48265706
Hasn't it been like this since touhoufag went off for whatever reason? I remember people bitching about him, but at least he provided content.
>>48267506
I basically abandoned this place while he was around. Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of other folks were scared away by him, too.
>>48267506
No, it hasn't been this quiet. And it's not like that was the only ever content we ever got.
Hell, I talk a lot. I've just been busy. And also playing Dark Souls.
>>48267605
Except you very clearly didn't, since you were around to throw a tantrum at him.
>>48267689
No he wasn't, that was me. And "tantrum" seems to mean disagreeing strongly and providing counterpoints. I imagine you were throwing an actual tantrum about me, though.
So, I'm gonna be in a 2nd edition nWoD game soon where the GM said we could basically use any books available. Because I know it's only going to be a few sessions and I kinda want to be a dick, I've decided that even though I don't know too much about WoD, I want to make the most ungodly unbalanced thing possible. Any advice on how to accomplish such a task?
>>48268689
The most dickish and unbalancing thing you can do to a game is insist that you'll be there and then not show up. Given your intent, this is a win-win for you and the group. You get to infuriate people that invited you to the game and they don't have to suffer your presence.
>>48267506
I mean, it's less that it was him specifically, and more that Mage 2e was still new. Now we're back to normal posting times: most of the activity is during the early American evenings and late European mornings. It's gonna be that way until Promethean drops.
Anyone want to throw some ideas my way for a game I'm running in several hours?
In my current Hunter chronicle, a high-ranking spirit has begun to manifest in the physical world. In return for offering to grant one wish, it has convinced a young woman to provide it with personal items stolen from other women at her school (a journal, an art project, etc.). However, I don't know WHY it wants those things.
The players have noticed the woman stealing people's personal affects, but that in itself isn't actually suspicious enough to warrant serious attention. Monsters takes priority over petty thieves, after all. Next session I want the side-effects of whatever the spirit is doing to become apparent, since it's definitely going to affect people they care about—but I haven't actually decided what those side effects ARE, or what the spirit's endgame IS.
Thoughts?
>>48246972
The Syndicate did nothing wrong.
Void Engineers either.
>>48268893
Actually, Touhou really hurt the mageposting, because any talk about it had to deal with him jumping in. No one could really talk about anything other than how broken Fate is (something he's been saying since 1e)
>>48268857
Well, I'm not playing with strangers, I'm playing with friends and it's sort of a one-shot game without any real story or depth to it. People in our group have done unbalancing things in the past in games similar to this and it's usually been met with humour.
>>48268898
The spirit doesn't want or need those things, but it does need more pliable tools and the theft of valued possessions makes the targets easier to manipulate towards its goals. Maybe it sends haunting visions of summoning runes to the artist so she incorporates them into her work. The introspective is paralyzed by fear of reprisal should the contents of the journal find their way to wrathful parties. Perhaps the spirit tells the thief to make those fears come true, driving her to isolation, suicide or violent altercation.
The former could be used to help it cross or attract the seeds of a cult to bring it into the world and the latter as a catalyst for the crossing.
Or maybe it's just a spirit of worry, frustration or loss and wants to cultivate some favorable resonance to snack on once it gets here.
>>48268091
>And "tantrum" seems to mean disagreeing strongly and providing counterpoints.
You reduced yourself to begging him to take it to another blog. While you certainly weren't throwing a tantrum, it seemed like you were about a heartbeat away from having a meltdown. Whether it was out of some misplaced brand loyalty or some need to carve yourself out as the top dog of a White Wolf thread on a Malaysian Slideshow imageboard, I'll never know.
The only person who came out of that looking good was the single person who told 2hu that they were wrong, and then joked that there'd be an eight-hour derail fed by people who just couldn't resist the bait. Turns out it was more like a 72 hour derail.
>>48268689
>>48268964
Beast.
>>48268919
Nah, he didn't kill Mageposting as much as hardcore Mageposting was on its way out. New game discussion usually peters out after about two or three weeks, and settles into a trickle. Ultimately the derail didn't do all that much to break the pattern. We'll see a rise in Mageposting once the errata and FAQ are out.
>>48265706
>Slow day.
Reality deviancy has been successfully suppressed. Post technocrats?
>>48268907
Of course not.
>>48268898
One common reality deviant tendency is to use stolen objects as ontological maps, enabling them to affect the owner of the objects [see file #014-0C 'Sympathy and Contagion']. The goal of all reality deviants is to create an incursion into our world; its goals after this are irrelevant because it cannot be allowed to create a successful incursion. To that end, it will likely attempt to 'anchor' itself on any living hosts it can target, draining their energy while tying itself to their dimensional pattern. Symptoms may include ill health, repetitive behavior as the entity begins to influence their psyche, and growing hostility/paranoia. Once the entity has sufficient control over the target's behavior, it will attempt to draw them to a central location, and drain what life remains and force open a door to a hostile subreality. Any leftover biological material from this process will be used to construct servants and tools once the entity is fully manifested.
Standard practice is to locate the place where the hostile reality deviant is attempting an incursion into reality using a Dimensional Radar provided by the Border Patrol Corps, then send in a Neutralization team with ItX Hardsuit support. Cleanup should be handled by NWO denial ops.
>>48269078
Seconding this. Or Promethean.
Want to talk to me? Disquiet.
Want to build a base? Wasteland.
Want to interact with me at all? Torment.
Want to kill me? Don't worry, if built right I can have up to 2 extra lives at start!
Also electricity heals aggravated damage for me.
Also my "blood buff" can add extra attribute dots. Any.
So there is a guy I know who is an absolute slut when it comes to Tabletop games. He make the most broken ass, backwards characters in every game and shit down your throat at the slightest injunction if you do something similar in his.
Well he invited me to a WoD game and I am on a personal mission to make it rain blood from the skies, make babies cry and drive him to insanity. I'm looking for the most broken, day wrecking, game breaking, mother ravaging Vampire build ever.
If there is a Vampire build in 2.0 you know of please tell me. If there is a rule, this build needs to break it. I will kick a baby in your honor.
>>48269062
Anon, the fact that you think anyone who hated Touhou's shitposting due to "brand loyalty" is incredibly misguided. Several people disliked what was going on, and repeatedly pointed out the issues both with his way of thinking and with his actual 'math'. Someone on the OPP forums even went through and practically provided page numbers to counter everything he was saying.
I honestly don't understand why you're so intent to defend someone who clearly doesn't understand how the game works, or why you'll jump to shout at anyone who doesn't want to see the same thing repeated nearly verbatim across six threads.
>>48269242
I think there's some way to roll 32 combat dice
but I'm not min maxy enough to remember it.
its relatively easy to min max in CofD
>>48269415
Except, from the way that particular person responded to the posting, they seemed convinced that some number crunching dork on the internet was going to drive people away from one of the most popular CofD lines. It didn't happen when he did it to GMC, and it wasn't going to happen when he did it to Mage.
Proving someone wrong because they're wrong is a good thing, but when you do it out of fear that they're going to be some kind of pied piper against a game you like, it smacks of misplaced brand loyalty.
>why you'll jump to shout at anyone who doesn't want to see the same thing repeated nearly verbatim across six threads.
Right, like all the discussions in this thread are such staggeringly new content, or that six threads is somehow an eternity. He comes in, posts a lot of shit, and then leaves for months, even longer now that he's not really a CofD fan anymore. Just say he's wrong, and if he keeps on posting, be like Atamajakki and just leave the thread and come back when he's gone. A derail is always a two way street.
And trust me, this "shouting" and "defending" is nothing compared to someone like Aspel, our resident Cthulhutech apologist.
>>48242120
Most snowflake character Ive seen was a koldun old clan tzimisce with amnesia that joined the cam.
It wasn't even that bad because everyone shat on him for being a tzimisce and he knew if he ever acted up the shariff and everyone in town would stomp him.
Never played with many snowflakes, I mostly get cliches
>>48254041
Two words:
Science (Science)
>>48244578
>mage 2e
You forgot a Freeform magic system that is consistent in what you're able to do.
>>48269803
He certainly has given several people the wrong assumption about games. He's done the same to other ones as well. He apparently ruined Legends of the Wulin for a lot of people. Also, most of the problem was you jumping in to tell everyone that they're wrong and that Touhou should keep doing what he's doing even though no one wanted to hear it. Meanwhile, you'll give me shit for trying to get him to start a blog (which would be better for everyone). He's not even here and you're trying to convince everyone he was good for the thread.
Also, for fucks sake we get it, you don't like the CthulhuTech setting. Some people do. Deal with it. Pointing out that it had so much promise isn't being an "apologist".
>>48270003
Eh. Plenty of people will argue about that. The book itself mixes a lot of Practices up, that's true enough, but hopefully that'll get hammered out. It's been about a month or so since it came out and waiting for the final version.
>>48269242
>Strength 5
>Dexterity 2
>Wits 5
>Composure 4
>Athletics 5
>Weaponry 5
>Weaponry(Two-Handed) specialty
>Athletics(Defense) specialty
>Daeva, take your extra attribute dot in Dexterity
>Vigor 3
>Kindred Dueling 3+
>Take a Chainsaw or Fireaxe
Everything else is your choice
>You now roll 14 dice to attack with 9-again on the roll, and a weapon damage of 3(Fireaxe) or 5(Chainsaw) in Lethal
>Your Defense is 8
>Your Initiative Mod with no weapon is +9, Fireaxe is +5, Chainsaw is +3
>You can also spend vitae to add your Vigor to your attack roll, for a total of 17, or for Physical Intensity, for a potential max of 19(though that requires you to have Blood Potency 2)
>On average, with 17 dice, you're rolling enough successes to one-shot most people(especially if they don't min-max for survivability)
And that's without taking the Beast/Frenzy into consideration, at all
>>48270022
It's definitely more concise than 1e and Mage20.
I mean they bother to state practices AND at least attempt to follow through with themMy only problem is that casting a spell feels like it takes 5 minutes, I wanted fun rules-light casting!!!
>>48270022
I've got faith that Dave will put out a functional errata that we'll all be fairly okay with (there's almost certainly going to be hiccups, but none of the nWoD or CofD games are flawless mechanical masterpieces; the fanbase will find a way to deal) and then we can all move on to shitposting about nonstandard pronouns in Promethean or whatever happens to the Ashwood Abbey in Hunter 2e or whatever we love/hate about Deviant.
>>48270103
>My only problem is that casting a spell feels like it takes 5 minutes, I wanted fun rules-light casting!!!
Yeah. I was trying to get a Mage game together, but it kind of feels like the casting is a bit of a turn off for people.
>>48270022
speaking of, is there any word on when the errata will drop?
>>48270112
>nonstandard pronouns Promethean
To be fair, there's some credibility when they use it.
Or demons, were they're not doing the whole charade thing.
>>48270146
It's one of those things that looks complicated but once you've done it for a session or two it starts to become reflex.
>>48270161
There's credibility when anyone uses it. I mean, people do that in real life, and also existing pronouns are already pretty arbitrary (especially in languages with grammatical gender; how the fuck is a table female?)
>>48270171
Yeah, for me it seems fine, if a bit time consuming to work out if/what Reach something might need, but for people I explain it to, it seems like they're overwhelmed. Then again, I played Mage 1e, and maybe I just suck at explaining things.
>>48270146
I'm feeling like running a homebrew casting system where I just say "fuck it, roll as long as its within your practices, tell me what you're using for a yantra, and i'll attach negative modifiers if you're going big or not using a yantra"
Chronicles and WoD as a whole can be a very Crunchy game unless you have a GM who's lax and a party without a rules lawyer. Then you all can just have some fun and call out the rules when you'd think "it'd be fun to follow this mechanic"
>>48270210
I think it's more the way spell factors and such are handled. Unless a player wants to do the basic thing, even when they're not going to Reach, you've got the issue of how to Factor it out. With Reach, there's the added aspect of whether something is in a particular Practice but better than the practice. My rule of thumb is that Reach is required for more finesse. To use a very rough analogy, if Spell Factors increase your Area, Reach can focus it.
I was also thinking about how to make Yantras more interesting, mostly by opening up what they can do. Instead of just the +1s that are standard, they'd:
>Give Equipment bonus
>Give specific Spell Factors
>Give -2 to Paradox
And Prelacy would be expanded to be non-Exarch Patron Tools. For instance an Incarnae or maybe a Pangaean Patron providing you their blessings as a Prelacy. Obviously it would turn your Demesne into a Verge aspected towards their realm.
How cool would a Beast/Deviant crossover chronicle set in Ancient Greece be? The Beasts are there as walking punishers of hubris akin to the Furies, while the Deviants are the victims of divine wrath akin to Arachne or (less mythologically valid) Kratos.
>>48270161
You won't hear any complaints from me.
>>48270406
>How could would a Beast
Stopped reading there.
>>48261973
Im waiting for Wraith20. Haha despair!!
>>48242120
I have heard of this clan since Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines!
I wonder how you would introduce clan Chocula to the game.
>>48270422
I've realized that every possible complaint has already been voiced a dozen times; there's just not much point bashing Beast anymore. Better to try and dig some ideas out of it.
It took the release of Dark Eras to make me finally like Mage, and I didn't even like Mummy until Book of the Deceived; maybe something dope will come out and finally sell all of us on it.
>>48270470
At least we're finally getting some updates on it.
I feel like I don't grok mage. We've talked to death how the spell casting is one half, "Whatever, man, do what you feel like." One half stacking modifiers this way and that. On top of that, I don't get what a mage's storyline is. What do they do with themselves? Why do people want to play a mage? Vamps have their brooding and their politics. Werewolves have their Spirit shit. Promethean has the whole, "I wanna be a real boy." Demons are Burn Notice Matrix Agents.
Mages are... what? Demigods farting around in a sandbox?
>>48270702
2e casts them as people obsessed with finding and solving occult mysteries.
>>48270715
But can't you solve mysteries as anything? Why is there a whole splat devoted to it? So they're all detectives? What does a mage game look like?
>>48270068
Thank you my good man. I just found out we are going to be mixing races in this game (which not sure if this will be ass effective because of that. Not sure if mixing races is even a good idea but...whatever). If you have any more input that would be amazing.
but as promised: http://wigs.garydave.com/stuff/Pictures/rubbish/gif/babykicking.gif
>>48270770
>>48270702
Mage isn't just about solving mysteries, it's about looking for answers. The mysteries most other splats will be solving are things like "who" is doing something, "what" is going on. For Mages, the answer is "WHY" does this happen. Mages are scientists. They're the ones who look into strange phenomena. No other splat approaches things from a Gnostic standpoint like Mages do, not even the "Techgnostic" game of Demon.
A game of Mage will generally involve the players working cooperatively to try to better understand something. And then get caught up in the mysteries and dangers surrounding it. Mages are all about poking problems with a stick until they turn over a rock and find a secret or it turns out they were poking something that bites (in which case being bitten is rather enlightening). Mage is all about finding answers to nagging questions.
Every Mage knows the world is a Lie, yet every Mage is instinctively driven to find out its secrets. Even Mages who don't actively seek Ascension are still on the path to it because they seek Sophia and Gnosis. And, unlike other games that use Sticks to get you to play properly (you spend 1 vitae each morning to rise, so Vampires will always need to drink blood; Werewolves are driven to Hunt, though I can't actually recall anything bad happening if they ignore it), Mage uses Carrots, in that when you go poke things you get more Magic XP.
>>48270911
Advice for how to continue: Boost Blood Potency.
Join the Ordo Dracul, focus on Mystery of the Wyrm, then spend everything you can on Blood Potency.
Pick up some kind of Supernatural Affinity, based on the enemies you face.
Another possible clan to join is the Gangrel, provided you can join the Kerberoi. They can get rather insane, what with adding Blood Potency to actions that follow the type of Lashing Out you do.
If you are dead set on Daeva though (which I wouldn't blame you for, btw), I'd try to get the ST to accept the En bloodline from Ancient Bloodlines (Babylon era). It's practically a 2e Bloodline as is. Then you can become a diablerie-monster.
Remember, Diablerie is ALWAYS cost-beneficial.
>>48270702
I kinda disliked what the game wrote them as so I just say they're a group Gnostics philosophizing about how best to control and balance the use of magic.
The Silver Ladder wants humanity to be guided by the awakened.
The Free Council says awakened should be more like normal humanity
Guardians of the Veil say magic should be kept secret among themselves.
The seers of the throne feel that magic is dangerous and would rather have no one awaken and because of this they get sweet Supernal boons from the other side of the ladder.
Meanwhile the Mysterium and Adamantium say "Screw the politics I'm off to go solve magic mysteries" or "Who am I to judge what is best, All I care about is achieving excellence and I'll work for the highest bidder to do so"
>>48270970
That isn't a bad idea either. I also thought about min-maxing on charisma as hard as I can. I mean lets be honest I haven't played too much WoD but I know enough to know that Vamps aren't exactly a physical match for other races. Especially WWs which I know he will shove in cause he loves them.
But if I can charm everything into jumping off a cliff before the first blade is drawn, why the hell would I take combat skills? Problem is I'm terrible at min-maxing cause...I don't do it often xD
>>48270986
>Guardians of the Veil say magic should be kept secret among themselves.
But that's literally the Mysterium's core ideal.
The Guardians are all about magic going to the worthy and policing the idiots among the Awakened.
>>48271026
>But if I can charm everything into jumping off a cliff before the first blade is drawn, why the hell would I take combat skills? Problem is I'm terrible at min-maxing cause...I don't do it often xD
Because anyone who doesn't or can't understand you will be immune.
Also, Celerity + punch 'em is really, really fast.
>>48271045
... No
The Mysterium are about hoarding Awakened secrets and permitting the worthy access to them, worthiness being determined by possession your own mystic secrets, being stupid fucking powerful and not opposed to the Mysterium or by trading the Mysterium some other mystic secrets. No matter how profane, the Mysterium will keep it.
The Guardians will keep was they will, and burn what they won't.
For they don't trust the Mysterium with half of the shit they have deep in their vaults.
>>48271108
Yes, but consider: the Mysterium hates Sleepers while the Guardians engineer cults aimed at steering the worthy towards Awakening. Saying the Mysterium is apolitical and the Guardians keep everything secret is a grave disservice to both.
And the Arrows aren't that mercenary, either. As an Order, they reject Sleeper conflicts and swear their binding oaths to those they deem worthy; they're not exactly paycheck-oriented.
>>48270406
We have Deviant info now?
>>48271149
>the Mysterium hates Sleepers
A radical group within the Mysterium hates sleepers.
There would likely be just as many Guardians who would murder an unworthy person before allowing them to Awaken.
>As an Order, they reject Sleeper conflicts
Only after 1945
>They're not exactly paycheck-oriented
They can be. Not every mage can make money and tass appear out of thin air.
>>48271168
Nothing beyond "you play people wronged and transformed by Conspiracies, the power level is relatively low, covers everything from supertechnology to dark rituals to Jekyll-Hyde shenanigans."
>>48271045
>>48271108
Regardless of what it IS I write the Mysterium as Indiana Jones and the Guardians as the guys who put the Arc of the Covenant in the warehouse.
and yeah I'm not saying the Guardians hide magic from everyone, just people they don't theme worthy.
>>48271183
One of the core beliefs of the Mysterium is that "magic is fragile." They hoard stuff and hate Sleepers because they literally melt magic with Dissonance just by being around it.
>only after 1945
My bad, I didn't realize we were inexplicably discussing historical settings all of a sudden.
The core game assumes modern day, which is 70 years worth of the Arrow saying "don't pick sides."
>>48270986
>I kinda disliked what the game wrote them as so I just say they're a group Gnostics philosophizing about how best to control and balance the use of magic.
That's more the Orders, not so much Mages in general.
Also, Jakki is right. The Mysterium hides all the secrets and keeps all the knowledge, and they're basically the kind of people who'd take Nazi scientists to make their weapons. The Guardians want to protect Magic and believe that Paradox destroys the Supernal. In fact...
The Silver Ladder believes that everyone has a rung on the Silver Ladder, and through the elemental precepts, they can lead Humanity to greatness, Awakened or otherwise. They do believe that the Awakened should lead, but it's more complicated than that.
The Arrow believes that struggle and conflict are the source of all Magic, and that they create Magic by struggling. That's why they're fightmages primarily, but lawyers, social justice warriors, and researchers are all valid expressions of "Magic is Struggle". They're not just mercs.
The Seers do NOT think that Magic is dangerous. Again, that's the Mysterium, who sometimes hide all the goodies. The Seers believe that the Exarchs rule the world, and they want to be on the winning side. They believe in a perversion of the Silver Ladder known as the Iron Pyramid, that has their dark masters ruling, and lots of backstabbing below. They join up because they may be blessed with power.
The Free Council is a group of disparate Nameless Orders that formed not because they think everyone should be normal humans but because they think that Magic comes from HUMANITY, filtered back up into the Supernal, NOT that everything in the world is just a poor reflection of the Supernal, the way the Diamond Orders tend to.
You've gotten things incredibly wrong, an I'd suggest rereading them.
>>48271220
Magic is fragile is one of the beliefs of the Guardians. Though the Mysterium do think sleepers knowing about knowledge destroys it.
>>48271194
Those are BOTH Mysterium.
>>48271183
It's not just "a" radical group. Because one of the Mysterium's beliefs is that Sleeper knowledge and awareness of mysteries leads to the destruction of those Mysteries, they're the Order with the most vocal antiSleeper sentiment.
>>48271026
>I know enough to know that Vamps aren't exactly a physical match for other races. Especially WWs which I know he will shove in cause he loves them.
This is blatantly untrue. Werewolves START stronger than vampires, true, but Vampires soon catch up, and as soon as the spent XP exceeds about 20-25, the Vampire is the physical superior.
Reasons:
Vigor, Resilience + Celerity vs. Primal Strength, Slaugterer, Berserker's Might, and Warrior's Hide
Vampires don't have to raise their Renown to get secondary increases of Strength and Stamina, like the Werewolves do. And unlike the Werewolves, Vampires raise actual Stamina, rather than just health (which is also restricted to Rahu, by the way). Vampires can also boost their Defence, which werewolves simply cannot do.
Werewolves also can't boost Weaponry-based damage, which means a vampire with a big weapon (such as the traditional large axes of the Sworn of the Axe) will be at a damage advantage.
Frenzy vs. Shapeshifting
Gauru is either time-limited, or unfocused, which both give tactical drawbacks. (Note: To counter Death Rage, invest in Obfuscate, a Basu-Im werewolf won't go sniffing around for whoever just vanished when there are juicy packmates to eviscerate.) Frenzy however is goal-focused, which might be a bad thing, but not as bad as Death Rage.
The offensive benefits of Frenzy out-weigh those of the Killing Form at around Blood Potency 4, that's when you get more dice from Frenzy than Gauru. Not dice though, so it might be a bit further still.
Defensively shape shifting wins, unless the Vampire has gone Mystery of the Wyrm. Then the adding of Blood Potency to both Defence and Health while in Frenzy is simply godlike. At Blood Potency 3 then, you have the same bonuses as the werewolf in question, AND have negated their bonus dice through more Defence.
>cont.
>>48271237
My bad on the "fragile" line; thanks for catching that.
>>48271237
>The Seers do NOT think that Magic is dangerous. The Seers believe that the Exarchs rule the world, and they want to be on the winning side.
Ugh, but that's just so shallow and makes the Seers comic book villain evil. I'd rather have sympathetic villains in a game like Chronicles of darkness.
>>48271220
>One of the core beliefs of the Mysterium is that "magic is fragile."
There's only place place that phrase is used, ans that's in the Guardians of the Veil. The Mysterium believes the exact opposite.
Also the Mysterium doesn't care that Sleepers melt spells. The Mysterium couldn't give less of a shit about spells. That's not what they want. An imago can go choke on a dick. They want motherfucking Artifacts. Ancient Grimoires of Rotes and Soul Stones containing lost Legacies. Chunks of masonry from Atlantean Ruins.
Some some two-bit Mage's levitation spell.
>>48271248
>Because one of the Mysterium's beliefs is that Sleeper knowledge and awareness of mysteries leads to the destruction of those Mysteries
The Principle of Pancryptia is not that awareness causes dissolusion and loss of a Mystery. It's that new Mysteries will always hide themselves, frequently in cultural detritus. Sleepers are the subject of Pancryptia, not the cause, though many angry Mystagogues are more than happy to blame the victim rather than the culprit.
>>48271026
>>48271258
>cont
Special considerations:
Here is the big one: Physical Intensity. When a Vampire has enough Vitae/turn to start spending it on Physical Intensity, they leave the Awoos behind in the damage scale.
Vampires inherent toughness is better than the ones werewolves have: Werewolves just downgrade Agg to Lethal, vampires also downgrade Lethal to Bashing, unless it's magical damage.
Elder-level Devotions: Juggernaut's Gait means that as long as the Vampire has Vitae, he is actually indestructible.
Restoring energy: Both can feed off of normal people, but vampires can feed off of werewolves, while the opposite isn't true. With Unnatural Affinity, this stays true up into the Elder levels. (If you work against some other kind of super, such as Claimed a lot, I also recommend grabbing Unnatural Affinity for them as soon as you reach Elder levels, Blood Bonds isn't fun.)
Stay the fuck away from any kind of devices though. Werewolf tech gifts are fearsome in the extreme.
>>48271278
The Seers are sympathetic on a big picture level; they're siding with the Exarchs who won the war so thoroughly, time was rewritten with them as the victorious god-kings. Trying to fight the Exarchs is a doomed struggle; why not serve them and enjoy the perks?
Alternatively, you can view them as the only people in the world who can actually talk to god(s). If a mage has had their faith shattered, the promise of Prelacy has to be incredibly compelling.
All that said, I think the Diamond Orders have enough nuance to all be fantastic antagonists on their own, and prefer them to the Seers.
>>48271340
>time was rewritten
That's a rather limited way of putting it.
EXISTENCE was rewritten.
>>48269803
From personal experience, Aspel is far more likely to drive people away from this thread than almost anybody else. Has a longer history of doing it too.
>>48271317
>>48271258
>a Basu-Im werewolf won't go sniffing around for whoever just vanished when there are juicy packmates to eviscerate.
That is not how that works...
I feel like you're missing a lot, and making a lot of assumptions.
>>48271278
No it doesn't. Most Seers aren't outright worshiping darkness for the evulz. They're doing it because they believe in the Exarchs' right to rule, or they're doing it to protect things they care about, or they're doing it because they're afraid, or they're doing it because, yeah, they want to win. That's not comic book villains. There's plenty of room for sympathy. Hell, if I remember right, the book itself has some sympathetic depictions (though it might have been Seers of the Throne itself, which has one fluff bit about a Seer who knows the world is wrong, knows the Lie, sees all the strings, but he does his best to ignore them, even as he watches his wife laugh along with the television).
Not only that, most villain groups in the WoD are super evil anyway. Belial's Brood, The Pure, Centimani, you've got people who are literal cannibals.
>>48271281
You're correcting him on one thing and then being wrong about the rest. The Mysterium believes magic needs to be preserved against Pancryptia.
>>48271297
Eh. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Either way, this is true, which is my point:
>The Mysterium as an Order cares the least about Sleepers — the very worst anti-Sleeper bigots and abusers in the Pentacle are proud Mystagogues, blaming innocent Sleepers for magic’s rarity. Many in the Order would prioritize a Mystery over the lives of Sleeper bystanders threatening it with dissonance, and a few radical Mystagogues take magic’s protection into their own hands, murdering Sleepers who pose a threat.
>>48271464
>That is not how that works...
>I feel like you're missing a lot, and making a lot of assumptions.
Fair enough. How does it work, and what did I miss?
I'm talking purely combat here. I admit that werewolves are a LOT better at several things. Finding stuff in particular.
>>48271487
If a Werewolf enters Basu-Im, their entire pack enters it as well. On top of that, I just feel like you're going by white room style "who has more dice".
I mean, Werewolves can do Aggravated and they also reduce Defense--when they aren't outright slaughtering someone with Down and Dirty. They're experts at inflicting Tilts and crippling their opponents. A vampire is only going to be a challenge when in Frenzy, while a Werewolf can go into Gauru at the drop of a hat. And you don't seem to be taking their healing into consideration, either. I feel like if you're going to do this, it'd be better for you to stat up your ideal anti-Werewolf vampire.
>>48271551
I was thinking of min-maxing a deava, whose hypnosis powers can take affect on anyone who hears their voice, while also getting a 5 point retainer as my meat shield character to soak up hits (and would actually start with more attribute points than a standard PC).
A super heavy charisma with a decent combatant meat wall. Mostly because if I spec into an anti-WW vamp then I am open to other shit to kill me. If I take a broader seductress/puppetmaster/order66 approach with a physical character in the back pocket I have both ends met to a point.
>>48271551
>If a Werewolf enters Basu-Im, their entire pack enters it as well.
If a werewolf enters Basu-Im, their entire pack must make a Resolve + Composure check or join in. BIG difference.
>On top of that, I just feel like you're going by white room style "who has more dice".
When the difference is big enough, the situation doesn't matter.
>I mean, Werewolves can do Aggravated and they also reduce Defense--when they aren't outright slaughtering someone with Down and Dirty.
They can do Aggravated to humans, werewolves and wolves.
Down and Dirty just applies to "most humans, spirits of lower Rank, and non-supernatural animals". Vampires don't count there.
>A vampire is only going to be a challenge when in Frenzy, while a Werewolf can go into Gauru at the drop of a hat.
Which is why I've been talking about Ordo Dracul, Mystery of the Wyrm members, who can, indeed, go into Frenzy at the drop of a hat. Reflexive action, 1 WP, Frenzy.
>And you don't seem to be taking their healing into consideration, either.
Damn it! I knew there was something I missed when the post crashed.
In short: A werewolf has to go into Gauru to heal better than a vampire of equal level.
> I feel like if you're going to do this, it'd be better for you to stat up your ideal anti-Werewolf vampire.
Fair enough, how much XP do I have?
>>48271570
>I was thinking of min-maxing a deava, whose hypnosis powers can take affect on anyone who hears their voice,
Won't work on werewolves. Death Ragers are extremely hard to mind-control.
>>48270702
Played as actually intended, IE with the seers involved, its actually a more whimsical Demon.
You have a whole bunch of more senior people telling you the world is not what it appears to be, and you just got a bunch of powers that let you see enough of their 'truth' to suspect they might just be right. Add to that there seems to be a good number of people out to slap your shit to try and stop you rattling the bars of the cage and glimpsing what lies outside.
Given all this, it seems like it would be a smart idea to do what your new pals say, go out, find all the shit in this world that defies common sense, try and find out the truth, arm yourself with it, and lay waste to your enemies. Not only gain the ability to create paradise, but morally justify your choice to do so. Protect the blind from the shadowy things they can't see, when you know damn well at this point that there are more types of shadow than there are types of light.
>>48271258
>Vigor, Resilience + Celerity vs. Primal Strength, Slaugterer, Berserker's Might, and Warrior's Hide
Vampires don't have to raise their Renown to get secondary increases of Strength and Stamina, like the Werewolves do. And unlike the Werewolves, Vampires raise actual Stamina, rather than just health (which is also restricted to Rahu, by the way). Vampires can also boost their Defence, which werewolves simply cannot do.
Werewolves also can't boost Weaponry-based damage, which means a vampire with a big weapon (such as the traditional large axes of the Sworn of the Axe) will be at a damage advantage.
Keep in mind that To get let's say 5 dots of Vigor a vampire must spend at least 15 xp.
A Blood Talon Rahu on the other hand, to get Killer Instinct (8 again on brawl) Warrior's Hide (+5 HP), Primal Strength (+5 Strength), Bloody-Handed Hunter (Potentially another +5 to Attack rolls, providing not directly the prey), Butchery (inflict a tilt anytime he's hit or succesfully hits opponent), and Crimson Spasm (Basically a more efficient, roll oriented version of Physical Intensity). And then 3 more gifts for Utility, potentially Hit and Run (a mini-celerity), Gift of the Elementals (Agg damage for vamps), if he happens to already have those gifts unlocked.
That's basically a slapdash version of Vigor, + 3 more gifts. Plus 5 more Moon gifts including half of Resilience and a bunch of other very powerful effects. Same price.
Vampires do have the advantage when it comes to sheer burst damage, but the Vampire has to burn a lot of vitae for either physical intensity or healing, to either match or overcome the werewolf's natural healing (Not likely to roll over to agg with +9 Hp). This is in a straight brawl, of course. If a vampires knows enough about werewolves to wait it out by avoiding with celerity or obfuscate (most don't), then he has an advantage. But you throw Death Rage in, where Garou lasts potentially 2 hours and gifts are free, it swings back again.
There are not nearly enough Lodges in the new Werewolf book (or z splats in general for 2e)
So I'm doing a 2e conversion of the Lodge of Wires for one of my games. Well, one of many. But this one is from Tribes of the Moon.
Here's what I got so far. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxK0La5plUm8NHRURzF0OUN2bms/view
>>48272165
>(or z splats in general for 2e)
Lack of space. Honestly, I'd much rather everyone went the route of Mage and gave Z-splat creation rules. I've always kind of disliked the "here are your options" way of doing things. It treats it as if that's the ONLY options, and also encourages viewing it as "all of these exist no questions asked". I'm not a fan of the "all splatbooks are in play" outlook.
>>48272111
>A Blood Talon Rahu on the other hand, to get Killer Instinct (8 again on brawl) Warrior's Hide (+5 HP), Primal Strength (+5 Strength), Bloody-Handed Hunter (Potentially another +5 to Attack rolls, providing not directly the prey), Butchery (inflict a tilt anytime he's hit or succesfully hits opponent), and Crimson Spasm (Basically a more efficient, roll oriented version of Physical Intensity). And then 3 more gifts for Utility, potentially Hit and Run (a mini-celerity), Gift of the Elementals (Agg damage for vamps), if he happens to already have those gifts unlocked.
These are the benefits for maxing out Purity and Glory, right?
The problem here is that it's harder to max those out than just bursting up Vigor and Resilience. You have to appease rather finnicky spirits.
But another point here is that only a fifth of all werewolves CAN get all those. Any vampire can max out all physical disciplines. Sure, it costs a bit extra, but everyone can do it. (5 in total for Daeva, 10 in total for the rest)
>>48272205
No, that was just Purity.
God forbid you max out Glory as well.
Renown does have its speed bumps in actual play, but in the case of white rooming that doesn't seem reasonable to include. Certainly if we're working with Super Natural Traits at 4+, 5 Purity is hardly an incredible feat. The fact that Gifts are so spread out can also provide some speedbumps for sure.
Also, that argument about it only being a 5th of werewolves is irrelevant for three reasons.
First, I could stat a Cahalith or Irraka and they would be similarly lethal to vampires. Not quite, but very close. Consider that even if you took away the Rahu’s moon gifts, Vigor 5 = 15 - 20 xp. Any werewolf (esp. Blood Talon) can get Primal Strength + Slaughterer + 3 other gifts for that same rough price. Full Moon Gifts were just a sweet, sweet cherry on top. It’s a lot of bonus stuff for that same price regardless of Auspice.
Lastly, consider that if a combat vampire is in a straight brawl with a werewolf, that werewolf is much more likely to be a Rahu. You can't say "Ordo with x Coil get this" and then balk at similar specifications for werewolves. Consider that Rahu are supposed to be the fighters. I would wager that it all adds up to the same. The amount of Rahu is probably roughly equivalent to the amount of vampires that focus entirely on being able to brawl.
>>48272293
Huh. All of them scale off of Purity. Hadn't noticed that. That's nice.
>Renown does have its speed bumps in actual play, but in the case of white rooming that doesn't seem reasonable to include.
Yeah, since this started as an example of "how to out-power that twinking munchkin werewolf player in a game" it's kind of mixed here.
>Lastly, consider that if a combat vampire is in a straight brawl with a werewolf, that werewolf is much more likely to be a Rahu. You can't say "Ordo with x Coil get this" and then balk at similar specifications for werewolves.
I dunno, I think I can. Any vampire can choose to join the Ordo, just like any werewolf can choose to join any Tribe. If Full Moon Gifts had been tribe based rather than Auspice based I wouldn't have complained.
>>48272316
Well like I said, Full Moon gifts aren't even necessary.
But I think it's a little silly to say my combat vampires could beat your Elodoth and Ithaeurs, so Vampires are the superior the better fighter splat.
Those aren't the werewolf fighters. I suspect the average Elodoth Investigator or Ithaeur Academic is a far better fighter than the average Mekhet Investigator or Academic, for example.
If you're whiterooming then it's 1 v 1, I assume and you're putting forth the best "builds" or whatever.
It just seems like a pointless objection. Hell, who knows. Maybe the werewolf population is 95% Rahu and 5% everything else. Luna chooses what the People need, afterall.
>>48272188
>Honestly, I'd much rather everyone went the route of Mage and gave Z-splat creation rules.
The Pack did kind of do that, actually.
>>48270702
If you're playing Mage correctly, ie as the actual protagonists, it's about being secret agents, soldiers, and scientists working for a fundamentally broken, uncaring organization - but an absolutely necessary - trying to fix it from within, get promoted, avoid being killed or turned, and do some good along the way. And of course, killing reality deviants.
>>48273229
Considering the other examples are CofD, I think it's pretty obvious they are talking about Awakening...
>>48273362
As I said, if you're playing Mage correctly...
>>48273396
Oh you.Solved any Reality Deviates recently?
>>48269242
Other tips:
Take every skill speciality as being identical to that skill, similarly as it's in V20 ready made characters. So for instance Science (Science), Athletics (Athletics), etc.
Take Mystery Cult Initiation and abuse hell out of it - touhou wrote here about it. Make cult where various levels of it grant merit and skill dots you are not eligible for and then exchange them with sanctity of merits for something you like.
Take Professional training merit for some profession you would like - for instance vampire enforcer. Insist on using those bonuses with disciplines.
Another possibility other than >>48270068 suggestion would be Gangrel, fighting just with claws (possibly Claws of the Unholy), dump strength, max dexterity, take Brawl 5 (Claws), Fighting Finesse (Claws) and Defensive Combat (Brawl). In long run with enough exp it won't be that good because of lack of benefit from Vigor (I wouldn't even recommend taking it), but Defense will be godly. Any NPC that GM could throw at you with chance of damaging you would absolutely obliterate rest of the group.
In case of more well rounded character, Relentless Assault is pretty good and since Beast, it is no longer werewolf exclusive. Similarly when taking Iron Skin merit, take the one from Beast, not Core.
>>48270022
>Also, most of the problem was you jumping in to tell everyone that they're wrong and that Touhou should keep doing what he's doing even though no one wanted to hear it.
You didn't want to hear it. Everybody else did. It was very useful information, and this thread doesn't often get that.
Fuck off, you autist.
>>48273229
Wait, is Technocracy in M:tA 2e?
If so, what page?
>>48273716
He's just being a prick.
>>48273229
I would still like to play a genetor/NWO artificial guy or an Iteration X terminator.
Reminds me of Shadowrun and I get to do cool stuff with my "body".
>Zapp!
>>48273504
Sadly very few. The Operations budget cuts are killer.
>>48273781
I would run or play a game of artificial humans, secret agents, and mad scientists fighting arrogant wizards.
(HITMarks are the best. Angry robots with chainguns are the Technocracy's way of asking if you value that node more than your life.)
>>48274093
Yeah, being an awakened HITMark sounds fun.
Would plasma gun the shit out of peopleon behalf of a black or gray man.
>>48273229
>>48273396
>Implying that's even playing oMage correctly
God I hate the Technocracy.
>>48274093
I don't even understand people who like the Technocracy. Why play a game about wizards and then make robots and superscience and pretend you're not a wizard at all?
>>48274600
>Expecting reason from people who still play oWoD
>>48273229
As the person who asked the question. Get the oWoD shit out of here.
>>48273229
I don't quite get how instruments/Magick works with technocracy. It's not like Mages who can just say an incantation/word for their needs. Do players just retroactively say they were carrying a piece of technology for their specific needs? Or do they just carry an assortment of "spells" they think they'd need beforehand?
>>48272424
>kind of
it gave all the pack creation rules
>>48272111
>Vampires don't have to raise their Renown to get secondary increases of Strength and Stamina, like the Werewolves do.
nah
but for each point of renown you get a free gift
you can get gifts on their own, but it's not like investing renown is a dead end
>>48274749
What kind of rules? I think he means Tribe creation rules. Since I don't wanna look them up, what are they?
>>48271604
>In short: A werewolf has to go into Gauru to heal better than a vampire of equal level.
no, just having high primal urge will do it
they heal bashing for free each round, and 1 exp turns that to healing lethal
this has been white roomed and the problem with vampires is that they run out of vitae (and so power) very fast against werewolves, who have a lot of powerful abilities that don't require any/much energy to use
>>48274778
> I think he means Tribe creation rules.
z-splat creation rules, which is what he was talking about
how to make lodges
>>48274794
>and 1 exp turns that to healing lethal
1 essence i mean
>>48274600
Ascencion wrote a compelling antagonist and some people enjoy the thought of playing them.
I mean considering oWoD hunters never had Task Force Valkyrie, I'd see why the Technocracy is appealing
>>48274807
Lodges, that's the one. I just woke up. Tell me about the Lodge Creation guidelines.
>>48274842
But what at all was compelling about them. They were yet another "technology is evil" group, and their way of viewing the world is the silliest bit of Ascension that puts a direct focus on its worst, stupidest, "don't think about it too hard because it doesn't make any sense" aspect.
>>48274093
If you want that, I am looking for a wod game.
Wouldn't mind playing mage at all.
>>48274871
>Lodges, that's the one. I just woke up. Tell me about the Lodge Creation guidelines.
get the book and read it, it needs more sales if we're going to get more nwod books
>>48274600
>Why play a game about wizards and then make robots and superscience and pretend you're not a wizard at all?
Because, anon
Sufficiently Advanced Technology is indistinguishable from Magic
And there's no other way to be a super science nerd who makes robots etc in WoD.
>>48274871
Power to the masses rather than some asshole who can sling fireballs because he believes he can harder than anyone else.
Meanwhile mages are still somewhat in the right because of how corrupt and oppressive their organization is.
>>48274904
I'm poor, Anon.
>>48274915
But they don't really have sufficiently advanced technology. They just have garbage that happens to work because they can clap their hands and believe it. They just *look* like super science nerds. Do you even need to know anything about Science to be a Technocrat? Hell, it seems like knowing about science would make it harder.
>>48274944
But it's still not power to the masses, because this is oWoD, and technology is inherently evil and controlling and oppressive, and we should all go back to Mother Nature.
>>48274973
Its not inherently evil, look at the virtual adepts and the sons of ether.
>>48275099
Even without them, it's not inherently evil.
The Technocracy aren't really the bad guys, they're just the other side of the coin that the Traditions live on
The real bad guys are the Nephandi, because they want to destroy everything
>>48275176
Nephandi
Marauders
Vampires
There's just plenty of other assholes out there and technocracy are the most reasonable of the lot.
>>48274794
>no, just having high primal urge will do it
It doesn't even have to be that high. At 4 PU, you're healing 2 lethal with 1 essence.
>>48275194
Could you have a Formorian Nephandi?
>>48275176
>>48275194
I don't see how they're the "other side of the coin", and they still want to oppress the world into a dystopian cyberpunk megacity
>>48275099
They're more an exception than a rule.
>>48275407
you know I understand at first the early 90's writing made them seem incredibly evil, but you know that they fleshed them out more and wrote them as more sympathetic over time right?
>>48275559
I feel like that's more a reaction to fans liking it as opposed to an original vision or anything. How were they fleshed out and made sympathetic?
>>48275407
We want people to be safe and prosperous. Most people want that, too. They want to buy nice things and live in well ordered societies. Only a few deviants would call that vision dystopia, presumably because they want to go off in the woods and dance around a tree.
>>48274973
You misunderstand how it works. Technocratic super science is scientific. Building a particle death beam does require you to know physics, and the theories and engineering that lets you do so aren't pseudoscience - no normal scientist or engineer would be able to look at it and say it *can't* work. What it is unproven, untested. The physics or technology that it relies on are bleeding edge stuff not in the consensus yet, and the scientist is relying on tools that might perform oddly in disordered environments. As technology advances, so does the consensus, and the theories that the hypertech relies on will become normal.
>>48242120
Some quick questions about Predatory Aura.
Does it only affect one person at a time or can you cower/seduce groups of people?
Does this basically replace the VtR1e rank 1 Nightmare power for scaring away multiple people over the course of a scene?
On a related note; since it now requires rank 2 Nightmare and a vitae to inflict the Frightened condition on a single target, what sort of mechanical effect if any would horrifying illusions caused by Dread Presence cause?
Overall I like VtR2, but there are a few things I don't quite get.
