NFC payments
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You are currently reading a thread in /g/ - Technology
You are currently reading a thread in /g/ - Technology
Is NFC payment from phones/gadgets the biggest tech blunder of the past few years?
>google wallet comes out in 2011; nobody uses it. such a failure that google has to rebrand it android pay
>apple releases Apple pay in October 2014; nobody uses it, some stores with the terminals actually remove it
>AT&T, verizon, and t-mobile try to launch a solution (which they have to rename from ISIS to softcard); people only add cards to get free amazon gift cards and then ignore it
>Samsung pushes their payment solution which can fake the magnetic stripe instead of NFC; people add a credit card to get a free gift card and then ignore it.
Is NFC a blunder? Will stores and the average person ever accept it? Or is it just something for nerds to dick around with at a few stores?
Apple pay is pretty big in the UK.
>>52213168
May be true in the UK but general European/Asian acceptance is lacking.
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2015/12/26/apple-pay-failure-undermined-apples-invincibility/
>With product momentum slowing fast, iPhone use of Apple Pay for eligible 2015 Black Friday transactions crashed to just 2.7 percent in 2015, according to InfoScout. At that level, Apple Pay is just slightly ahead of the 2 percent of eligible transactions captured during Black Friday by Android’s Mobile Wallet.
>>52213155
They're trying to push it too soon after Contactless Cards roll out en mass..Even then, not everywhere accepts contactless, nor does everyone use it even when the stores accept it.
If their goal is to replace Contactless cards, then they need to wait for contactless to become the norm.
Even then, it will be a struggle. Losing your phone can be bad enough with all your information on there, but losing it when you have NFC?, that's another level of panic.
>>52213155
Murrica's just retarded when it comes to payment tech. It took you how long to get chip CCs? Not to mention the tech sector is slowly growing irrelevant in the USA over NSA concerns. You're regressing to being a farming nation, good job.
top kek, paypass and all that stuff is a standard even in Poland
who the fuck buys so much shit that they need to save 5 seconds entering their pin? Meme technology at it's finest.
See loads of people use nfc credit cards, not so much phones though.
>>52213211
Chip and Pin isn't even a norm in the US yet.
The only argument that can be brought against it is "Muh black friday fuckery will get worse with people waiting 10 seconds for the PDQ"
>PDQs take ages!
Any PDQ made in the past 5 years takes 10 seconds at most to complete a transaction. Then it's down to the speed of the cashier.
>>52213196
>They're trying to push it too soon after Contactless Cards roll out en mass..Even then, not everywhere accepts contactless, nor does everyone use it even when the stores accept it.
Contactless cards in the US are essentially dead. Chase started rolling them out in almost all of their cards in 2005 under the blink brand name, consumers rejected them because swiping was fast enough (and merchants didn't buy the wireless readers) and FUD about the ability to read the card remotely (because people could read the account number remotely, even though that's not enough info to clone a card, the account number is different, and the challenge/response on the transaction is unique). Amex discountinued expresspay chips in their cards. Discover never offered their Zip NFC contactless chip in their cards. And banks in the US are dropping Mastercard PayPass/Paywave on physical credit/debit cards like a hot potato.
>Losing your phone can be bad enough with all your information on there, but losing it when you have NFC?, that's another level of panic.
More secure than losing a contactless card. You can issue a remote wipe from iCloud or Android device manager, the wallet apps require a PIN, and the card info stored on the NFC secure element is different from the physical card, so the credit card issuer can deactivate the NFC card on a phone without cancelling and reissuing a new account number on your physical card.
>>52213211
>Murrica's just retarded when it comes to payment tech. It took you how long to get chip CCs?
That's different. The US had a much older and more established payment infrastructure, and the fee charged to merchants to accept cards (typically 2-4% of the transaction) meant it was cheaper for banks to eat the cost of card cloning fraud charges then to modernize for a long time. Once rolling out chips was cheaper for the bank then covering card present cloned fraud, the US got chip cards.
>>52213237
>top kek, paypass and all that stuff is a standard even in Poland
see >>52213253
Americans don't really trust NFC in physical cards due to FUD.
>>52213240
It's about the security of the transaction, not having to carry around as many cards, confirmation of the purchase on your phone, etc... the initial Google Wallet idea also included automatic use of the payment method, loyalty card, and coupons in a single tap, which was convenient but now gone.
>>52213248
Not in the United States.
>>52213250
Chips are now the norm with almost all credit and debit cards re-issued. Merchant acceptance varies. Most mom and pop stores and restaurants have not switched yet because the cost of fraud charges from not accepting chips is lower than the cost of buying chip enabled equipment.
The fact that most US banks are issuing chip and signature cards is banks going crazy over the time and patience of the American public, thinking we are too stupid to remember pins and/or will be less likely to use credit cards if we have to use them.
>>52213269
>infrastructure
Not compared to Canada you didn't.
In 2011, Canada said "accept chip+pin within a year or you can't accept CCs anymore". Surprise surprise, within a year chip+pin was rolled out. Merchants bitched and whined but got over it. Why were Americans too dumb to do this?
>>52213330
In late 2013, Mastercard/Visa/Discover/Amex told retailers "accept chips at your stores. After October 2015, if someone claims fraud and our card had a chip but you didn't read it, then you have to pay the cost of the fraudulent charge" to US retailers.
The banks aren't pushing PIN in the US on chips; see >>52213315
>The fact that most US banks are issuing chip and signature cards is banks going crazy over the time and patience of the American public, thinking we are too stupid to remember pins and/or will be less likely to use credit cards if we have to use them.
As far as "infrastructure" goes, US banks have a longer history of electronic acceptance that required more money and time to modernize.
>>52213315
>the cost of buying chip enabled equipment.
Are there not firms in the US that rent out the equipment?
We have such firms here in the UK, though the terms they operate on vary. I believe most of them just charge the store 40pence per transaction. Which usually just leads to the stores running a "No Car payments under X Amount" or "We have to charge an extra X amount for use of card under X Amount" policy. And honestly, there is no bother. I'm not going to lose sleep over 40pence.
>>52213380
You can either buy the equipment or rent it. Typically renting is a monthly charge and not part of the per transaction charge. Merchants can institute a minimum purchase amount to accept cards if it is $10 or less but have to apply it to all card networks equally; cash discounts are permitted, but credit surcharges are not. (E.g. you can say "10 cents off for paying cash" or "5% off cash payments" but not "10% more for credit). There's a shortage of the equipment due to the number of merchants looking to replace it.
Americans strongly resist surcharges per transaction and generally embrace credit and debit on smaller purchase amounts. Merchants are afraid of scaring these people away by inconveniencing them.
>>52213155
>just swipe your phone
>just swipe your card
>just swipe your hand
One step closer to the Mark of the Beast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNtAuCsIIxU
>>52213374
wait
You autists are actually trying to push chip without pin?
The majority of c+p security is based on the microprocessor on the card verifying a PIN before signing transactions, how are you people this dumb?
Fuck it, I'm firewalling out all US IPs from the services I host, you people are just too goddamn retarded to be treated like other human beings. I'm just done.
>>52213464
Ahh..So this is the kind of low quality propaganda that US citizens fall for.
Woe be to the land of the "free". Held prisoner by the idiocracy and the media.
>>52213472
>You autists are actually trying to push chip without pin?
I don't work in the banking industry, so no, I am not pushing for chips without PINs. Banking industry people are. Certain cards are primarily chip-and-pin based (e.g. Target Visa, Penfed Cash Rewards visa) but most are either chip-and-signature preferred (e.g. my American Airlines visa - if the terminal says signatures are supported, it will not use a PIN) or don't support chip-and-pin at all (e.g. my Marriott Rewards visa).
I don't understand credit cards. I mean I have a couple that I use on BIG purchases. Of course i pay off my statement in full before the month is over to get muh credit score. However, with all the new technology nowadays wouldn't some nerd who figured out the payment infracture pretty much blackhat the whole system? How does a small little chip embedded on a credit card stop him?
>>52213527
Or software-related transactions (i.e NFC, apple pay, android pay, samsung pay)
>>52213527
The chip has logic and an embedded secret on it. The card will not disclose this if asked; it is inserted onto the card when it is created. The bank stores this secret on their servers. In its simplest form, the bank issues a challenge to the chip, and the chip uses the secret to create a response. The bank knows how the chip uses the secret to calculate the response, and what the secret is. So the bank issues a request, uses the secret to calculate a response, and then compares that to the response issued by the card. If the response is a match, then the card is actually present and the charge goes through.
The PIN is used as part of the calculation if it is a PIN enabled card (if the PIN is entered wrong, it won't work), and the challenge requests are specific to the time/place where they were issued.
That said, credit card chips are not perfect and there are known weaknesses being exploited.
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Papers/unattack.pdf
>EMV, also known as"\Chip and PIN", is the leading system for card payments world-wide
>[...]
>We have discovered that some EMV implementers have merely used counters, timestamps or home-grown algorithms to supply this number. This exposes them to a \pre-play" attack which is indistinguishable from card cloning from the standpoint of the logs available to the card-issuing bank, and can be carried out even if it is impossible to clone a card physically (in the sense of extracting the key material and loading it into another card). Card cloning is the very type of fraud that EMV was supposed to prevent.
>>52213552
NFC payments (all the different vendor implementations you have) essentially store the secret on a dedicated chip on the phone and the challenge/response works in the same way as a physical contact chip. It just does it wirelessly over NFC instead of a contact chip.
![a98c6a07e80083d7e4b385c56a90eef5[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/5CHISNn.png "a98c6a07e80083d7e4b385c56a90eef5[1].png")
>>52213567
Ignore the shitposter.
This is the other thread he is in right now
>>52213396
>>52213155
>get new phone
>only costs $200 with 10 year contract
>it has one of those "UFC" things yuropoors on /g/ keep raving about
>go to mcdonalds
>insert card into chip reader
>"just tap it on the terminal sir"
>spend 10 seconds looking for a "terminal"
>"on top of the card reader sir"
>tap card on the card reader
>it takes 40 seconds to verify
>by the time it's done my hoveround battery is dead
>have to PHYSCIALLY WALK to the table
>get shot on my way there
>cops show up
>get arrested for not tipping the cashier
>never even got to try the new mozzarella sticks
how the hell is this better?
Bad timing more than anything. I still ultimately need a card because contactless isn't accepted everywhere, and if I have to choose between using my contactless card and going through a bunch of steps to setup contactless pay on my phone, and then having people complain I'm hacking their cash register with my phone, I'm just going to use my card.
It won't really be a success until millions upon millions of buisnesses buy NFC card readers.
I tried the whole NFC fad while in London and ended up with someone taking $500 out of my card somehow. Had to had all my accounts locked associated with it and used cash the rest of the trip.
>>52214259
Yeah, NFC is broken. As in not secure.
There are already 2 standards in Aus, Visa Paywave and MasterCard PayPass.
All terminals support both.
All a phone has to do is support these.
Fuck google wallet, my NFC phone from years back lets you load a cards info and use it natively as a card.
We already had the system, we didn't need to implement one.
Fucking US still using magstrip though, no wonder it's going like shit.
>>52213464
Wow, look at the couple hundred biohackers who chipped themselves for fun, totally the fucking same as forced VeriChip.
>>52213486
Aaron Russo is legitimately spooky, though.
He doesn't seem like a nut and he is documented as having been in contact with Rockefeller/Illuminati types.
>>52213155
I use it almost every day for groceries.
Just wish it was faster and more reliable.
About 1 in 10 attempts fail for me, forcing me to fall back to PIN.
american consumer is lazy and fickle, they lack the initiative to invest the initial effort even if it means added convenience in the long-run.
>>52213682
You must be one of those retards /g/ talks about.
>>52213250
C&P isn't anymore secure than swiping it either. There was a recent set of findings published that demonstrated that if you're on the same network as the machine taking your payment you can rip the information and PIN with little effort.
>>52214652
>rip the information
You can with a magnetic strip.
You can't with a chip.
That's the whole point of the chip: it can't be copied.
>>52213155
Moved to China for work a year ago, my god the mobile payment systems here are miles ahead in terms of adoption. Every single place from corner stores to large stores in upscale shopping malls all use Alipay.
I literally haven't used my card for anything but to make rent payments. And because they use a QR code/barcode implementation you don't even need to have an NFC enabled smartphone. It even has a neat soundpay thing that lets me buy stuff from vending machines equipped with a microphone, and I can send money or receive money instantly from friends.
I'm pretty sure such a system can only work here because all the banks are state owned and so if you make your payment system comply with the state standard you are instantly compatible with all the banks.
>>52214652
>if you're on the same network
Then the store should cover your losses, because if they're running the PDQ on a publicly accessible network, they deserve to be sued into the stone age.
Softcard was p. nice while it lasted. They always had free Coke at vending machine deals and $5 off your purchase of whatever deals.
The problem is that it's pointless. Not having to use your credit card doesn't suddenly mean you don't have to carry a wallet.
>>52214895
Not until we do away with paper money entirely, actually these days I find it's more my cards that fill up my wallet, only really have a few bills on me.
And before you say
>more than one credit/debit card
Keycards, one for my building and one for the apartment
RFID Work ID
Driving License
Health Insurance card
Debit cards x2 (each from a different country)
>>52213155
I'm in Canada and none of the shit you listed works at all, so that's probably why in Canada it's a failure.
>TD Bank releases 'mobile pay app' but it only works with 3 phones (all samsung), nobody cares.
>Apple Pay finally reaches Canada. You can only use it if you have an AMEX card.
>nothing else because no one gives a shit about Canada.
>>52215005
Nah man, I get it.
I carry
>one credit card
>one debit card
>RFID work card
>work discount card
>Driver's License
>Health insurance card
>Costco card
>usually some small amount of cash for emergencies
>spare car key
My point is that eliminating the first two doesn't suddenly mean I don't need to carry the rest around with me, so I agree with you.
A couple Samsung reps kept hassling the fuck out of us when we were at the mall the other day trying to get us to demo this shit. I finally had to tell them flat out I wasn't interested and that even if I was I can't use it because I'm rooted.
Also, why the fuck would I want to make credit card transactions even less secure and have to pull my big-ass phone out all the time.
>>52213155
>people only add cards to get free amazon gift cards
Does it still work?
How do I do it?
I live in the US (Jew York) and use Android Pay or a chipped card any chance I can. Vowed to never swipe a card again.
Only use: Chipped card, NFC or Cash.
I'm trying to slim down the amount of cards that I carry.
AMEX Credit (Chipped)
CapitalOne Credit
Chase Debit (Chipped)
Health Insurance
Vision Insurance
NYS EDL Card (Chipped)
A+ Cert Card
NRA EPL Card
FCC HAM ID Card
Amazon Visa Card
Finding out I could load Gift Cards into the app was a lifesaver as well. Just need to see if the prepaid Visa cards will work.
>>52213155
I don't trust Android with my money.
99% of Android phones are vulnerable to Stagefright alone.
NFC is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. That's why nobody uses it. The only reason Apple and Google tried to push it was because they wanted to track your purchases, which would be invaluable information for selling ads. Google would do it directly, and Apple would do it indirectly.
Chip+Pin is the solution everyone wanted, and retailers are having a hard enough time implementing it.
>>52215072
Softbank shut down on March 31, 2015. It's dead.
>>52215290
>FCC HAM ID Card
Is this what I think it is? You're certified to operate a Ham radio?
>>52215006
Because whats the point, our cards already have all that stuff with tap and pay.
>>52215589
si senor
Who worries about Stagefright? It's been patched out of all the popular flagship phones.
NFC is stupid I agree for payments. It's fine as a metro pass as it deters casual reselling of passes due to the mandated fee to buy another chipped card.
I'm surprised that merchants in the USA are too lazy to switch to chip readers. If I was a douchebag I could easily claim fraud left and right and the store would have no recourse.
I feel for that person harassed to use Samsung Pay. Who DOESN'T root their Samsung phone?
>>52213155
>Tevet, 5776
>Doubting NFC
Goy, be Good
>>52215588
fug
>>52215599
Well for me personally the tap and pay shit only works to some degree. i.e under $50 or under $100 with a credit card.
Also half the places the tap shit doesn't even work because the owner is some cheap chink who doesn't want to upgrade the payment terminal so you're still stuck doing the bullshit swipe or chip in.
>>52213155
Samsung pay is actually the one thing Samshit has done right in the last few years. Works even with mag stripe readers. Doesn't require NFC capability.
>>52215290
There's no point in carrying half of those cards.
>>52213155
Is it just me or is the Galaxy S3 the best looking phone ever made?
Ignore the software, I'm just talking about the hardware
It just seems perfectly proportioned t.b.h.
>>52218411
It's the ugliest flagship phone ever made. That physical button is off center and it triggers me.
>>52218411
it's just you
>>52218503
>That physical button is off center
???
no it's not.
>>52213155
It's never going to take off.
Who the fuck wants to arrive at a till with a trolley full of goods only to realise that the battery in their "card" has run out.
The extra 0.5mm thick card is worth it just to avoid this situation.
>>52213155
I use Samsung pay almost exclusively. It doesn't work at the gas stations I go to and a few other places, but for the most part it's good. I liked android pay too, but not being able to fake the swipe is a big deal.
The real problem with all of these payment systems, is competition. Everyone is trying to force their own thing... so you end up with 50 different half assed solutions that are ill supported and just a cluster fuck for consumers. If everyone would focus on ONE technology, and make it robust and work everywhere, it would easily catch on. But it's the same thing why tech in general is such shit. Everyone trying to compete for $ instead of everyone working together to make something badass.
Why aren't you using cash?
Enjoy being tracked everywhere you go, faggot.
>>52221256
I have a few extra rolls of tinfoil just for you, stupid faggot.
Merchants don't want Apple Pay because it takes away their ability to build a marketing profile of your purchasing habits every time you use your credit/debit card.
They made a big deal of launching Apple Pay in Australia and it only works with fucking American Express - which is accepted just about nowhere.
>>52213155
why would I use phone when both of my credit cards have their own NFC in them?
>>52221312
>it only works with fucking American Express - which is accepted just about nowhere
That's because American Express charges business owners huge fuck-off fees for trading in Australia. My friend worked for a company that did (briefly anyway; a pizzeria called Ninos in SA) and they lost more money in the fees on a single American Express transaction than they were paid.
>>52213250
It does take ages, and do not increase security in most cases. Most criminals do not use advance hardware tech to steal the info from the the magnetic strip. Most just steal the card, or copy the numbers. There is no point to chipping. Especially when the chip security can be downgraded to just the magnetic stripe at merchants who haven’t yet updated their terminals, or just the numbers for payments over-the-phone or online.
The thought is good, the implementation is poor
>>52221490
>Most criminals do not use advance hardware tech to steal the info from the the magnetic strip.
That is my single and only gripe about these cards and phone payment methods.
It won't matter how secure they are if a dude is pointing a gun at you ordering you to transfer/cash out X amount of money from the cashier.
>>52213472
Good, fuck you and whatever services you host. Like I need an account on some fag jabber server.
We'll do fine without you.
It's failing cause everyone is trying to do their own proprietary version of it and its fucking ridiculous.
On my phone I open up the Commonwealth Bank app and select nfc pay. Works with any paypass terminal and I don't need to fuck around with this android pay or apple pay bs.
>>52214346
This nigga gets it. I can log in with my pin into my selected banking all and tap my phone. Still just as secure.
>>52221715
Murricans everybody.
>>52221433
and that is why i love my amex. Picture related.
They only places around here that don't take it... are gook/sandnigger stores that I try to avoid anyway.
>>52213464
Been wondering, if i get the rfid chip implanted on the tip of my finger, and then the card expires, I'm gonna need to get the new put in and the old one taken out, wont i?
>>52213211
>Murrica's just retarded when it comes to payment tech.
I'll second this.
The one dollar coin is too advanced for my people.
Never catches on.
>>52215290
>A+ Cert Card
I always enjoy finding the gag line in a field of actual information.
Thanks for the laugh, anon.
>>52221942
I love it too, but in Canada it fucking sucks, nearly no places take it. I can literally only use it for some restaurants and some high end stores.
>>52220617
He means vertically (within the lower bezel) off center
>>52213155
>>apple releases Apple pay in October 2014; nobody uses it, some stores with the terminals actually remove it
Because those stores joined in on CurrentC, which allows them to collect your information.
>>52213155
I've seen some people here in Korea use it and it's possible to pay using it at most places.
>>52213155
>NFC payments
>The industry creating a need to finally use the gimmicks they stuff into phones to make them more expensive.
If they were at least a bit clever they would have implemented some kind of cash back bonus system. There is no convenience over cash AT ALL, if you consider the new threat of getting hacked or scammed.
>>52214259
Things that never happened:
1. You coming to london
2. You owning $500
>>52226515
London is basically like Detroit now but with no crack houses.
