Hey /x/, I recently rewatched pic related and it sparked my interest: does wearing a blessed cross do anything besides make the person feel good or does it actually do anything? Likewise, are there any kind of objects, tattoos, other that are supposed to ward off demons or do some kind of supernatural stuff?
I just realized I worded that a little funny, but you guys get the idea.
>besides make the person feel good
that IS how it works.
>do some kind of supernatural stuff?
yes there's tons, you really need to be more specific.
>>17373568
Okay except I know so little I don't even know what kinds of questions to ask. Are there books or websites you could point out that are generally considered to have solid information? Otherwise just summarize the supernatural stuff you know about and I might be able to take that stuff and look it up myself.
>>17373588
I wouldn't even know where to start. Literally every culture on earth has a plethora of protective talismans and sigils seals or symbols to protect against evil. There's literally so many I dont even know where to start... hands of fatima, crosses, roan twigs with red string wrapped around tham, nazars, petition notes, ofuda, god's eyes, lucky horse shoes, 4 leaf clovers... honestly there's got to be millions...
Id recommend google honestly. Try looking up "amulets" and "talismanic tattoos" that should be more than enough to start looking into.
>>17373588
tattoo having our main character mirror of truth that makes his name? high reference is that Alchemy is used by the Alchemists , is pure magic is used to protect from external forces
>>17373617
Every culture on Earth? I mean specifically for Christianity. Of course, I don't even know half of the things you just listed and as far as I know four leaf clovers don't have a connection to Christianity.
If it helps any I can narrow it down to warding off spirits or possession.
>>17373627
I have no idea what you just said. I imagine this might be frustrating so I apologize for that, when I say I'm knew to this I mean the only stuff I've ever heard of at all were in the original Exorcist move, pic related, and maybe a handful of other mainstream movies I don't remember the names of right now.
>>17373617
This
But if you want the same spirit of the movie, catholic lore is full of those artifacts, the thing is most of this relics are well already in the hands of the church. But using the medal/image of some saint usually is asociated with a special effect. Saint Judas Thaddeus, saint of the students, can help you throug tests and to get good grades/study better is the first that comes to mind.
>>17373640
Good stuff, can you point me in a direction to go where I can read up on this? I don't expect either of you guys to just linger around this thread and catch me up on everything after all.
>>17373568
Speaking of which, thank you both for taking the time to reply.
In short you can charge almost anything to protect you spiritually
>>17373655
How and to what extent? It would probably be easier if you have any sources I could peruse. Specifically my issue is that I know so little that when I look through google I'm not entirely sure which is genuine and which is bullshit.
>>17373652
Just try to find saints/angels patronage in google.
This is in the top three results
http://www.catholic.org/saints/patron.php
http://www.catholicsupply.com/christmas/saint_meaning.html
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Saints/patrons.aspx
>>17373667
ok OP you said specifically "christian" defenses? We need more information. Catholic? Protestant? Non-denominational? Do you want magic (like spells and rituals) or specifically just charms?
>>17373711
And all of that would work huh?
>>17373713
I didn't realize denomination mattered. I'm Protestant but why wouldn't Catholic stuff work? I'll take whatever you can give me. I cannot overstate my thirst for knowledge right now.
>>17373716
I didn't say it WOULDNT work, but many people are uncomfortable going outside their personal background.
For instance, Hoodoo (or at least a lot of it), clever folk traditions, hexmeister dutch colonial magic, and Appalachian traditions will appeal to protestant christian beliefs without having you call on saints and perform rituals you are uncomfortable or unfamiliar with.
>>17373501
The Saint Benedict Medal does not work for the unbeliever, nor the superstitious (i.e. those who have misattribute the works of God for that of the material of the medal itself)
For it is faith in Christ that allows grace which works through the Medal of St. Benedict.
Wear it, and the devil will not touch you. Sin while wearing it, and you might as well be hanging any other piece of metal around your neck.
Many people put St. Benedict's Medal on their foundation as protection from the devil.
Wear this medal, repent of your sins, and do combat with unclean spirits who roam about the earth seeking the ruin of souls through prayer, fasting, and other acts of asceticism. The one you fight is not flesh and blood, but of the spirit.
>>17373720
Saints are merely those men who followed Christ and enjoys His company in Heaven. They are truly alive, forever.
>>17373716
the same principle as the usual magic, faith and stuff. As I said there are special relics, like the pinky of some saint, or like the crosses they mention in the movie, but there are churches built around a single saint relic/part of his body which is suppossed to have powers by its own, so good look finding those.
>But how I find those artifacts? I don't know much about it.
Sit and read catholic folklore/history/myths until your eyes bleed would be a good first step.
>>17373716
The reason why rituals of the Catholic Church matters is because it was established by Jesus Christ Himself. Those who say it was established by Emperor Constantine clearly are not aware that there were popes in Rome before Christianity was legalized by Constantine, and that it had a position of honor amongst all the Christian communities in the known Western World, because of its location in Rome.
With Protestants, it all becomes unreliable because there exists no central authority nor a sufficiently long tradition that verifies practices and beliefs- people then would freely break off and make their own church where they can believe whatever they want regardless of its relationship to Truth.
>>17373720
I went to a Catholic high school and as far as I'm aware there's only a handful of things I disagree with them on. If they happen to be relevant they are that only Christ is holy, everyone else (i.e. saints and Mary) can be a special order above everyone else but not holy. I've never quite gotten along with the idea of a priest being able to forgive you for your sins, seems like that's more something between me and God but I'm open to changing my mind. Lastly is that I don't agree with the idea of purgatory. You either sin, repent, and go to Heaven or you sin, don't, and that's that no room for kind of sinning and kind of repenting so you go to some spiritual halfway house.
That being said while I wouldn't necessarily argue with the power of something like hoodoo I also wouldn't want to use it since that seems like it would be considered witchcraft and a whole other level of sinning. I haven't been the best Christian by any means but I'm not going to start actively seeking creative ways to piss Him off haha.
>>17373732
Makes sense. From what I've seen the saints are more for Catholics though is that right or could I as a Protestant tap into someone like Saint Benedict as well?
>>17373748
I mean how do I find the right folklore and not just stuff some shmuck made up for shits and giggles. I've gotten the impression that there's a fine line between truth and fiction here and that it's at least a somewhat popular topic to just make stuff up in because it sounds interesting so I'm also trying to find reliable sources. If given a direction I have no problem doing the legwork, but I don't want to go on a wild goose chase without even knowing what an actual/metaphorical goose looks like.
>>17373755
Wait wasn't the Catholic church founded after His death and resurrection? I want to say it was St. Paul.
>>17373755
Scratch that. The Apostle Peter.
>>17373763
>I mean how do I find the right folklore and not just stuff some shmuck made up for shits and giggles.
I said it already:
Sit and read catholic folklore/history/myths until your eyes bleed would be a good first step.
Do you think the people who really know their stuff just did it asking around? you think the people in those fictional stories just became good asking people for directions?
Even the text and the stories have contradictions, it is for you to decide what is truth and to find it. Or let me guess, you just wanted the easy way like most of the moronic kids in /x/
>>17373777
I saw that part yeah, I meant specific titles
>Even the text and the stories have contradictions, it is for you to decide what is truth and to find it
Are you saying there's no baseline, commonly accepted truth? Because that's what I'm here for and that's not something I can really determine on my own since I don't have anything to compare it against. I have no problem doing the legwork, my problem is I don't want to spend a years worth of pouring through stuff only to find out that this guy is just some nut and all I've done is read glorified fan fiction.
>Or let me guess, you just wanted the easy way like most of the moronic kids in /x/
More like I have no idea what I'm doing and am trying to get pointers from people who know more than me. I don't expect you to spoonfeed me everything you know and have said as much in my second comment. It's like I'm trying to learn how to build a car except I don't know where any official specs are so I'm talking to people I believe are mechanics who can point me in the right direction. I'm not going to just start stringing wires together and hope for the best.
>>17373763
>I also wouldn't want to use it since that seems like it would be considered witchcraft
so that's a no to magic then, that limits our options considerably
>>17373798
And you barely will get it in a place where people think tulpas and succubus are viable options to lose their virginity.
Every wikipedia article have a bibliography part in the end, and you can see the texts and the authors from where they got the info.
>But everybody can change wikipedia
Go to your local library and ask for a book about saints, read it, or just skip to the bibliography and check the books and the authors from where they got the info.
Rinse and repeat.
>>17373811
So rituals and the like for Christianity aren't considered magic?
>>17373815
I hadn't thought of that actually, thanks.
>>17373811
How much longer were you planning on sticking around by the way? I should get to sleep soon so I can work tomorrow but if you're able to stick around then I'll try and last a bit longer.
>>17373798
Ignore anon, he's being a pretentious fuck to maintain his limited semblance of self-worth by thinking he knows something special.
Since you've outlined what you're interested in: Catholicism has the most charms trinkets and other symbols and acts of protection and purification. Protestant faiths have tended away from those for the most part. Since you said you're concerned with hoodoo or "witchcraft" regardless of where its beliefs come from, most of the protestant protective workings are going to be uncomfortable for you because they are decidedly "witchy".
Really the best I can do for you is to recommend saints medallions, devotional candles, and memorizing certain biblical passages said to be proof against evil.
>>17373501
>does wearing a blessed cross
How do you know if it's actually blessed by a person who can actually bless?
Also it is an icon, an idol, so gl getting that blessed.
>I want to ward off demons
GL
Only God can do it.
>>17373819
>So rituals and the like for Christianity aren't considered magic?
they ARE considered magic, but then so is hoodoo. The problem here is I do not know where you draw the line, you probably dont even know yet, and thats ok, its just hard to make recommendations until you make that decision.
>>17373822
Ill be sticking around, but Ill give you the search term youre probably looking for: "Christian Theurgy" that will get you closer to where you want to be.
>>17373833
>How do you know if it's actually blessed by a person who can actually bless?
Irrelevant, faith is the functional portion of a blessing.
>Also it is an icon, an idol, so gl getting that blessed.
Good luck getting a cross or rosary blessed?? You having a giggle m8?
>>17373824
Don't Catholics have rituals and similar things too though? If so, then I imagine that stuff would be fine since it is within the church.
I'll at least look into the those things in the last sentence though, thanks.
>>17373833
Pretty sure priests can bless things. How is a cross an idol? Is it really that much different than a crucifix?
>>17373836
Alright, thanks; both for being able to stick around and the tips. Also, I'm going to draw the line around Christianity. If it's accepted by the church then I'll do it. My issue isn't with the idea of magic it's with the idea of doing something that could be seen as inviting the devil (?) I don't know what the proper term is but Ouija boards would be an example.
>>17373846
>Don't Catholics have rituals and similar things too though?
They do, and it's still magic. The catholics may not directly call it that, but ritualized prayer for the purpose of miraculous ends is 'magic' no matter how you cut it.
>If so, then I imagine that stuff would be fine since it is within the church.
Ok so were beginning to define what you consider "ok" and not. Be aware that there is a great deal of magic and ceremony that is rooted in Catholicism that is not considered canon or "official" to.
As a protestant you do not have an ultimate theocratic body to answer to as to what is ultimately acceptable or not, catholics do.
>How is a cross an idol?
Its not, it's a devotional symbol.
>Is it really that much different than a crucifix?
no
>If it's accepted by the church...
There's the problem, WHICH church, you realize there are hundreds of christian denominations (including roman catholicism) and their opinions on this matter vary greatly.
>it's with the idea of doing something that could be seen as inviting the devil
We wont get into your definition of what the devil is or is not. The important question is what you think would invite him/it. A great deal of hoodoo and ALL of hexmeister/appalachian tradition, specifically uses only biblical verse or petitions directly to christ or god... Youll have to make up your mind whether thats acceptable or not, some churches say its fine, others dont.
Catholics will accept a great deal of magic and ritual as long as they themselves have directly condoned that particular rite.
>Ouija boards would be an example.
that is a very very specific example, and not necessarily relevant to a lot of what youre talking about since the Ouija, or spirit board, is a very secular, non-faith based thing.
Ultimately you're going to have to decide what church exactly you're adhering to if you want to adhere to one.
>>17373862
It got a little jumbled there since I wrote half of that before you responded to the previous one. But hm, makes sense. I suppose I'm not really in a position right now to seriously think about what church I would want to adhere to especially since it sounds like there's lots of grey areas. Since that's a topic for another day and I don't expect to spontaneously be able to talk to you then I'll ask is there any magic on defending from spirits/demons (pretty sure they're not interchangeable and are two separate things) or taking the offense (such as in clearing a house) you believe to be particularly effective?
But really? I didn't realize hoodoo or the Appalachian stuff tied back to Christianity. I feel like I've been living on an island and just learned there's an entire continent around me. I'll save that stuff for another day though, no sense in overcomplicating this.
As for Ouija boards, my understanding is that using them is like playing with fire. Just puts out a call to anything nearby which can then freely wander in and start shit if you're not careful.
Honestly I think I might wander into a nearby Catholic church tomorrow and talk with a priest. I doubt I'll convert, but in the short time I've started looking into this it feels like catholicism is more well grounded and protestants have some points I agree on but lack cohesion or self discipline by just splitting off into a variety of groups.
>>17373885
>you believe to be particularly effective?
yes, but Im not christian either, you don't want my magic. I just hold no bias against what you're asking for, one way or the other and I know a bit about it.
>really?
really.
hexmeister / clever folks traditions came from western europe / UK and are heavily informed by, and call upon, christian tradition. Appalachian probably had its roots in ireland/scotland traditions, its a bit more "secular" in that it doesnt always involve calls to christian powers, hoodoo, while based in afro-carribean magical traditions, has been steeped deeply in protestant beliefs, and christian powers. This is considered heretical by some groups of christians, and perfectly normal and needed by others. There is no hard consensus.
>ouija
I don think it's quite that simple, but the takeaway is, its not worth it, no matter how it functions.
>I doubt I'll convert
They wont ask you too, theyll invite you to attend services, if you want to convert, theyll be happy to take you when you're ready.
>by just splitting off into a variety of groups.
some see that as a benefit.
Honestly, Im not trying to convert you into, or out of any specific faith or practice, but catholicism seems like its right up your alley, and it will give you a theocratic body who is both comfortable and familiar with certain magical practices, and who can give you guidelines on what they feel is "correct" and "not" and what they consider to be "correct" will still leave you with a lot of ritual and petitioning to be done towards many many powers that are decidedly "within the church".
Good luck to you on your quest.
>>17373763
I want to respond to your statements about the faith as most of them are misunderstandings.
>If they happen to be relevant they are that only Christ is holy, everyone else (i.e. saints and Mary) can be a special order above everyone else but not holy.
Are you saying that you don't believe the saints, in general not specifically Catholic, but those the Church Triumphant, are holy? Or do you believe that Catholics don't believe the saints are holy? I'm not sure which position you have.
This one is relevant, because the power of godly talismans is related to your faith in God to work through them. If you don't believe St. Benedict is holy how could you believe his relics could be channels for the divine power?
>I've never quite gotten along with the idea of a priest being able to forgive you for your sins, seems like that's more something between me and God but I'm open to changing my mind.
Look into the passages surrounding Peter's recognition of God and his placement as the first among equals. Specifically binding and loosing. Furthermore it fulfills the command to "confess to one another your sins". Finally, consider that in Catholic understanding the priest is forgiving you not of his intrinsic authority but as an agent of divinity. Like when a judge declares you exonerated, he is doing it not of his own ability to exonerate, but as a minister of the law.
If you disagree, you disagree.
>Lastly is that I don't agree with the idea of purgatory. You either sin, repent, and go to Heaven or you sin, don't, and that's that no room for kind of sinning and kind of repenting so you go to some spiritual halfway house.
Purgatory isn't a halfway house, and it isn't for kind of repenting, it is for everyone who repents and is saved, and only the saved. It is where we are purified from our vestiges of evil we bring from this life.
Again, free to disagree.
As for items, I would recommend a Chotki, it is a prayer rope woven to ward off the devil.
>>17373909
Fair enough. It's been enlightening talking to you, thanks for having the patience to be able to talk with me.
Funny how that works out though, I imagine a person could learn about all of these differences for years and still not be a master.
Moot point yeah
I can imagine. Might be nice to regularly go to a service again anyways just for the peace it brings.
I suppose so. Honestly if it wasn't for the politics I'd be pretty happy with mine, but then that might just be the nature of the times.
No no I know you're not, and besides I've been the one pushing you for answers so even if you were it's not like I didn't ask for it. Something to think about though, which is funny because after 4 years of Catholic high school and all of the religious stuff that went with it I never seriously considered catholicism as something I would be interested in. Maybe it's because now I'm not surrounded by it and feel like if I did go that way then it would be naturally and not because I felt pressured into it.
Anyways though, thanks man you too. Best of luck with whatever comes your way.
>>17373931
Specifically, a Chotki is woven so that seven crosses are intertwined and prayers are said the entire time it is being woven. The method was given to the saint who developed it in a vision of the Theotokos.
>>17373931
I was actually just about to go to bed because I'm exhausted and have to work tomorrow, but once more unto the breach:
I'm saying that I believe only the Holy Trinity can be called holy. I've never seriously tried to define it before, but I consider the saints and Mary to be something one step beneath holy but still above the rest of us. It just sounds blasphemous to me to put people on the same level as God which is what is implied to me when they're both called holy and there's no distinction other than in paintings where Christ gets a cross in His halo.
I'm not familiar with the passages you're referencing and to the best of my knowledge I've never even heard of the terms binding and loosing so I'll look that up tomorrow. As for the "confess your sins" I see that more like an act of personal penance as in you're being humble enough to admit you're a sinner and will strive to do better. I hadn't thought of your third point about a judge though. I suppose my opinion has been skewed by history where from what I've read priests in the past and possibly even today would abuse their authority and requiring people to go to the priest to absolve their sins just gave a man one more bit of power. It's an interesting point though and worth considering.
As for purgatory, what's the point of Christ's death then? He died for our sins so why should we have to work them off before we get into Heaven?
That sounds like an interesting item, any particular place I should look into getting one or do I have to make it myself? Also, is it only for Catholics or could be used by any believer?
>>17373940
And I'm sorry but I'm going to sleep now so I won't respond to whatever your reply is. However I'll keep the tab open so if you do reply then I can read over it in the morning and if the thread is still here somehow (which doesn't make sense to me but I saw some other thread on /x/ about scary video games that I definitely saw last night and with the exact same comments word for word. I just skimmed by without checking the time stamps though but I'm pretty positive) then I'll reply to you tomorrow as well.
If we don't talk again though I am planning on going to a nearby cathedral tomorrow and will likely bring up the same 3 points I've brought up here so I'll have the conversation one way or another. Night, and thanks for the tip.
>>17373931
Damn. Meant to send this to you >>17373993
The bell is the most powerful
Follow the bell
.. .
. ..
>>17373977
Thanks for responding brother.
>I'm saying that I believe only the Holy Trinity can be called holy.
I'm wondering if you are perhaps mentally replacing another word with holy. Holy means sanctified to God, and throughout the Bible (I'll assume we share the Bible as a pillar of the faith) many things are called holy. Holy temples, holy ground, holy prophets, holy apostles, holy angels, holy scripture, holy men and women, even holy hands and conversations.
>I've never seriously tried to define it before, but I consider the saints and Mary to be something one step beneath holy but still above the rest of us.
Except for the word holy, that is exactly how the faith views the Church Triumphant. Beneath God, exalted and pure.
>I'm not familiar with the passages you're referencing and to the best of my knowledge I've never even heard of the terms binding and loosing so I'll look that up tomorrow.
Matt 16:19 and 18:18 The first is following the naming of Peter and in it Jesus gives Peter the "keys to the kingdom of heaven", making Peter the majordomo of heaven. He says "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." God directly gave Peter(and in Matt 18:18 the rest of the apostles) the authority to act on behalf of heaven in all ways, the authority to make promises or abrogate them.
Again though, it isn't as if God won't forgive you if you forego the priest.
>As for purgatory, what's the point of Christ's death then? He died for our sins so why should we have to work them off before we get into Heaven?
Purgatory isn't about working off your sins, you are already saved before you get there, all is forgiven. It is about attaining the purity to be in heaven.
We aren't pure now, agreed? We will be in heaven, agreed? The purification must be between death and heaven then, and that is what Catholics call purgatory.
That ends the theological post, I'll talk more about the Chotki next.
>>17373977
>>17374122
>That sounds like an interesting item, any particular place I should look into getting one or do I have to make it myself? Also, is it only for Catholics or could be used by any believer?
The chotki is awesome, it is the oldest currently known prayer rope from any religion.
A chotki is for anyone. Though I would consider reading up on its usage. It is easy to slide into eastern style meditative process or magical thinking, neither of which is conducive to actual spiritual enrichment. One caution is not to use it overlong as a novice(the chotki is considered a valid replacement for divine liturgy attendance if prayed in the thousands). If you decide to get one make a thread, I'll get you some good resources.
I get mine from the Convent of St. Elizabeth in California, $15 so not expensive if you are worried about cost. I don't know where you are in the world, but Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics make them all over the world in monasteries and convents.
>>17373501
I recommend Flint stones- Used by shamans in ancient times to ward of evil presences. Cheap powerfull protection rocks, stash your home with it and your self will thrive. I know ittle about tattoos except for asian tattoo pacts with spirits, where you give up a part of your life for the spirits protection and help. If you break the contract the spirit will wrong you in the worst of ways untill the end of your days-
When it comes to a matter of crosses, i truly believe that they symbol a holy force of some kind, maybe its the intent of humans ? but i have used a bible given to me by an old lady plenty of times for protection, despite not being a christian
>>17373501
Finger bone of a saint.
>>17374139
I could possibly be replacing it with another word yeah, but if holy means sanctified to God then wouldn't that mean God is something else? I mean, God doesn't have to sanctify to Himself because he already IS the most sanctified thing there is.
Just seems like there should be some kind of different level. For instance, a bachelors degree holder and a PhD holder both go to college and can claim they're part of higher education but the PhD is clearly superior to the bachelors and has a special name associated with them to signify this.
Ah okay, loosing like that. The wording struck me funny. But alright I see how the Apostles would be given that power, but where does it say the same authority is passed on to their descendants i.e. priest, bishops, etc...?
As for purgatory, if we're already saved what else do we have to purify? Did saints have to go through purgatory or were their actions on Earth good enough to go straight in?
I'm on the East Coast, and so how does the chotki work? I've never used any kind of object when praying, so would it amplify my prayers or...?
>>17374374
That sort of stuff sounds interesting but might be crossing the line for me. Thanks anyways though.
>>17374384
Somehow I doubt I would be able to get anything from a saint.
>>17375319
>I could possibly be replacing it with another word yeah, but if holy means sanctified to God then wouldn't that mean God is something else? I mean, God doesn't have to sanctify to Himself because he already IS the most sanctified thing there is.
I think it is more a quirk of language or more likely a failure. Like the word person doesn't really convey the same sense as hypostasis, but in English we still use it to describe the trinity.
>Just seems like there should be some kind of different level. For instance, a bachelors degree holder and a PhD holder both go to college and can claim they're part of higher education but the PhD is clearly superior to the bachelors and has a special name associated with them to signify this.
That is exactly what we believe.
>But alright I see how the Apostles would be given that power, but where does it say the same authority is passed on to their descendants i.e. priest, bishops, etc...?
Well that is the whole premise of the Church, that when the apostles founded a congregation and lay hands on the leader they were passing on their authority, public and open. Elsewise you have either no authority or a secret authority.
>As for purgatory, if we're already saved what else do we have to purify? Did saints have to go through purgatory or were their actions on Earth good enough to go straight in?
That depends on your beliefs about your current state. Do you believe that now or at anytime until your death you will be entirely pure? The saints are the collection of all the souls in heaven, and yes they all were purified.
>>17375319
>>17376053
>I'm on the East Coast, and so how does the chotki work? I've never used any kind of object when praying, so would it amplify my prayers or...?
As I said, you have to avoid magical thinking. No Christian artifact, relic or talisman is a magical item, none of them "amplify" your prayers, or have power in and of themselves. They exist to bring mindfulness of God.
In general usage the Chotki counts a number of Jesus Prayers - "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a/the sinner". The a/the distinction depends on whether you are concentrating on that you are not an extraordinary sinner but one among many(to avoid the hubris of believing your sins are amazing and everyone else's are ordinary) or that you are /the/ sinner, that your sins sent Jesus to the Cross, that He died for /you/ and if you were the only sinner in existence. He still would have done so.
Your first post specifically spoke of warding off demons, and in personal usage and historic accounting the chotki and Jesus Prayer are efficacious in driving the devil and his own away. The construction is a gift from heaven to give faith that the devil will not undo your righteous work. Again, though, it is a faith in God, not in the prayer and not in the item.
To use: hold the rope in your left hand between the forefinger and thumb moving from knot to knot as you pray. At the beginning of the session and with the end of every prayer make the full sign of the cross with the right hand. Traditionally this is with thumb, index and middle finger brought to a point(trinity) and last two in palm(dual nature of Christ on Earth) and the shoulders are touched right to left(not left to right as in the Latin rite). You should verbalize the Trinitarian formula as well.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-moral-symbols-at-work-0216-biz-20160215-story.html
>>17376053
>That is exactly what we believe
But if it's what you believe then why are both God and the saints holy? I'm not seeing the tiers or differentiation with the word.
>Well that is the whole premise of the Church
Hm. I suppose so. Something still strikes me as odd about that, maybe it's because of how displaced modern clergy are from the Apostles combined with how we're all men and even the best of men aren't perfect.
Also, you said earlier that it isn't as if God won't forgive me if I forgo the priest bu I thought that was a fairly important part of Catholic doctrine? That to be forgiven you must go to confession.
>That depends on your beliefs about your current state.
Not before my dead, no. But after my death when my soul leaves my body and Christ washes away my sins then I'm not sure how much cleaner I could get.
>>17376135
>As I said, you have to avoid magical thinking. No Christian artifact, relic or talisman is a magical item, none of them "amplify" your prayers, or have power in and of themselves. They exist to bring mindfulness of God.
Right right. So...the chotki acts as a kind of channel then? Or do you mean its purpose is just to reaffirm my faith in a manner of speaking whereby using it a person would feel spiritually reinvigorated in a similar way that someone might see a picture of a loved one and feel motivated to keep pushing?
Unfortunately my work ran a lot longer than expected, and will likely continue to do so through the weekend, so I didn't actually get to go to the cathedral today. If I still can't go tomorrow though then I think I'll just wake up early and go to an actual mass on Sunday.
>>17376291
Makes sense. Social Psych 101.
>>17376395
>But if it's what you believe then why are both God and the saints holy? I'm not seeing the tiers or differentiation with the word.
You are fixated on the word holy. The Bible itself calls the apostles, the prophets, and the members of the church holy. God is the source of holiness, but others are holy. If that is something you are uncomfortable with, nothing I can really do. But, that is the Bible, not me.
>Something still strikes me as odd about that, maybe it's because of how displaced modern clergy are from the Apostles combined with how we're all men and even the best of men aren't perfect.
That is why I have to have faith that God offers some protections for the faithful in His Church.
>Also, you said earlier that it isn't as if God won't forgive me if I forgo the priest bu I thought that was a fairly important part of Catholic doctrine? That to be forgiven you must go to confession.
Some people get so caught up in the doctrine they forget the relationship. God gave us confession, it is a good thing and we are told to use it. But we are His children, and He isn't going to turn us away in our crying out to Him because we didn't file the right paperwork as it were. In Catholic theology we call it a normative necessity. If you know God commanded you to do something you need to do it. If you can't or don't understand the need, God is full of love and mercy.
Also, as a psychologist, there is a difference in confessing in private to God and confessing to another person.
>Not before my dead, no. But after my death when my soul leaves my body and Christ washes away my sins then I'm not sure how much cleaner I could get.
The last part is where we disagree and it is only be degree. We both believe that we aren't perfect now and that we will be in heaven. We both agree that something happens after death to prepare us for heaven, you say "washed in the blood of Jesus" and the Church says "purgatory". A pill for cancer vs chemo.
>>17376598
>>17376395
>Right right. So...the chotki acts as a kind of channel then?
Sorry if I sounded preachy and/or condescending. There is a lot of poor information and ignorance based deception. You'll see a lot of people say that Christian ritual, prayer, talismans, etc. is/are the same as magic, and I just wanted to state that it isn't and warn you away from that path.
I used the word channel before so I'll stick with it. Yes, a channel via your faith. Like the mud and spit Jesus used to cure the blind man. The mud and spit were ultimately unnecessary, but provided a physical ground for the weakness of humanity.
A perhaps more useful parallel is the rite of exorcism. We know that the rite is unnecessary, the apostles and early fathers certainly didn't use it. But we also know it is effective. So our knowledge and that we have formulized it allow for the faith of the participants to be unwavering, and in that faith the ritual is able to be a conduit for God's power.
The ideal is a free-form faith that finds ritualisation or talismans unnecessary, like that of the centurion whose servant/son was healed. 'You don't have to come and do anything, just tell me that is done and I know it will be so'.
>
Unfortunately my work ran a lot longer than expected, and will likely continue to do so through the weekend, so I didn't actually get to go to the cathedral today. If I still can't go tomorrow though then I think I'll just wake up early and go to an actual mass on Sunday.
Best of luck, and a last question. You began this by bringing up demonic warding and have asked questions about protection from and cleansing of demonic influences and powers. Do you believe you are under spiritual assault?
>>17376598
>The Bible itself calls the apostles, the prophets, and the members of the church holy. God is the source of holiness
So...you're saying that God is *more* holy?
>That is why I have to have faith that God offers some protections for the faithful in His Church.
Fair enough.
>Some people get so caught up in the doctrine they forget the relationship
So you're saying it's a topic that has wiggle room and not a widely accepted belief?
>A pill for cancer vs chemo.
Alright I can understand how my interpretation is more of a shortcut or something compared to yours. How does purgatory work though? Maybe that's a better question for a priest but I was never quite sure if it was more of a waiting room, something where you face some level of challenge, something in between, or even just something else entirely.
>>17376657
You're fine, I'm used to much, much worse bluntness and berating. I prefer a candid discussion.
Ah okay, I see what you're saying now. I'm not sure what you mean about exorcisms not being necessary, but then I also haven't actually carefully read the Bible in a few years so I'll just take your word for it until I read it for myself. Either way I understand the analogy so that's what's important.
As for your last question, not currently no. I also can't really say for sure if I ever have, but in my parent's house I would occasionally get this gut feeling something wasn't right. It wasn't helped either how my cats would frequently stare at nothing, at least a few times I had these "dreams" where I would be half awake and half asleep feeling this almost overwhelming feeling that something was very close and trying to hurt me which always ended up with me becoming fully conscious in the middle of the night sitting in a corner of my room while holding my breath and trying very hard to remain as still as possible. 1/2
>>17376657
2/2 The biggest one was I had a dream where I was sitting on the couch watching tv around 3am and was about to go to bed. Then it went into 3rd person and zoomed out to show some tall dark figure standing just behind me. Then I felt this incredible sense of dread, saw the clock on the cable box turn 3:36 I think it was, and then there was a brief feeling of tensing up and an adrenaline rush as something started to happen and I woke up. A couple days later I was sitting on my couch watching tv at 3am with a cat sleeping near me. All of a sudden a plant on the other side of the room fell over and my cat jumped up/stared at me. I was a little freaked out, but even more so when I realized my cat wasn't staring at me but just over my shoulder and his eyes were bulging like he was freaked out but didn't want to budge. Then I felt the overwhelming sense of dread, felt the recognition that I had dreamt this before (which has happened more than a few times for other things, not sure if you're familiar with that kind of stuff) happened to glance over at the cable box to see it hit 3:36, decided "fuck this", and spun around to just see an empty room. I looked back at my cat and he had relaxed and started to lay down again. I don't know if it was all just my imagination, but I figure no harm just playing it safe.
>>17376696
>So...you're saying that God is *more* holy?
I don't know whether holiness is a measurable state or a qualitative yes or no. So I don't know whether that question make sense. If so, I guess.
Either way, God is certainly greater. Linguistically the veneration we give saints has a word(dulia) that is less than the veneration due God(latria).
>So you're saying it's a topic that has wiggle room and not a widely accepted belief?
My last sentence is the official Catholic position. There is a need, but for those who cannot meet the need or do not understand the need, God is full of love and mercy.
>Alright I can understand how my interpretation is more of a shortcut or something compared to yours. How does purgatory work though?
Obviously if there were a pill to cure cancer we'd all rather take it than have chemo, I wasn't trying to imply a shortcut or less worth just different understandings of the same concept, that we will be... purged... of the evil in our nature before heaven. I, nor any priest, can know for sure how purgatory works. We've never been there.
Traditionally the imagery of fire has been used, because fire is how we purify metals. I don't think that is in literal terms, but I imagine there will be some psychological/spiritual pain as we realize just how much we failed at living.
However it is done, it gets done and that is where I leave it.
>I'm not sure what you mean about exorcisms not being necessary
No. The rite is unnecessary for exorcism.
>I had these "dreams" where I would be half awake and half asleep feeling this almost overwhelming feeling that something was very close and trying to hurt me
My profession is psychology. Have you ever heard of sleep paralysis? That sounds very much like the phenomenon you are describing.
>The biggest one
This though sounds like something. I probably would have said some protective prayers just in case.
>>17376798
>I don't know whether holiness is a measurable state or a qualitative yes or no
No worries, I'll just bring up with a Catholic priest. Do you understand what I'm saying though about saints not being on the same level as God, but somehow they both have the same title in this regard?
>Obviously if there were a pill to cure cancer...
I wasn't trying to imply one pathway is more worthy than another, just agreeing with you in a long winded kind of way by saying that we both believe the same thing happens except for me there's not an official stage, i.e. purgatory, where it happens so instead of being a drawn out process it's just instantaneous.
>Traditionally the imagery of fire has been used, because fire is how we purify metals. I don't think that is in literal terms, but I imagine there will be some psychological/spiritual pain as we realize just how much we failed at living.
That's what I was getting at yeah. So it's described to be a watered down, temporary version of Hell? Assuming it exists then I can believe that since it would fit nicely with everything else.
>My profession is psychology. Have you ever heard of sleep paralysis? That sounds very much like the phenomenon you are describing.
I have but I thought sleep paralysis is when someone is fully or semi conscious but can't move for whatever reason? Whenever it's happened I'm still able to move but it's very slowly and deliberately, trying to make as little noise/disturbance as possible. Are you familiar with whatever that type of dreaming I described is? That's something I've been curious about too.
>This though sounds like something...
I don't actually know any protective prayers, and for the most part I've always just shrugged it off. A couple times I felt the gut feeling when I was laying down to sleep particularly late and I would repeatedly say the "Our Father" which helped though but I wasn't sure if that just made me feel better or if there was actually some kind of effect.
>>17373501
Items do nothing unless given directly by God.
Like Solomon's ring for example. (That's where LOTR came from.)
Otherwise, nope. No items, no crosses etc do anything.
>>17376853
LOTR is based of a Norse saga called Niebelungenlied, the inspiration as well for German opera, Der Ringe des Niebelunges.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelungenlied
>>17376881
>>17376853
I had never heard that stuff about LOTR before, something new every day.
Going by what the previous guy said, unless it was only meant to apply to the previously established guidelines, then apparently even Solomon's Ring (whatever that is, will google in a moment) doesn't do anything either though.
While I started this thread hoping to find something that either inherently had power or could be made to have power my understanding now is that at best they can only serve as a focal point for you to help yourself.
>>17376828
>Do you understand what I'm saying though about saints not being on the same level as God, but somehow they both have the same title in this regard?
Only just, because we're having a linguistic breakdown. "holy" to me is a general descriptive word, like male. I see it as similar to saying because Jesus is male and because the divine is greater than all other no one else can be male.
>I don't actually know any protective prayers, and for the most part I've always just shrugged it off. A couple times I felt the gut feeling when I was laying down to sleep particularly late and I would repeatedly say the "Our Father" which helped though but I wasn't sure if that just made me feel better or if there was actually some kind of effect.
You are still thinking magically, as if prayers are spells and some will have one effect and others another. Whether you say a prayer written with protection from evil in mind or the our father as you have in the past. Prayers for protection are prayers for protection.
>at best they can only serve as a focal point for you to help yourself.
For God to help you, a distinctive point.
>>17373501
sure. every symbol has a meaning and is filled with conscious and subconscious suggestions, even if you don´t understand it itself.
a shield with a lion as symbol could keep away evil spirits because it represents strength the readiness to fight.
we just forgott about most of them
>>17376881
>>17376853
Tolkien took inspiration from a lot of places, those you mentioned and stuff like Beowolf and the Volsunga and other mythologic stories. The reason for the ring he said was because he wanted to write a long story, and a way to do that in myth is a story of peregrination with/about an object. In that same vein you have the stories of the graal. There's also a lot of myths that feature magical rings.
>>17376975
>Only just, because we're having a linguistic breakdown.
Is there any scripture or some kind of religious text that specifies one or another or is it stuck being subjective?
>You are still thinking magically
But I thought there were certain prayers that are intended to be used in different circumstances (?). You're saying that the words are just different casings on the same body and it's the intention behind them that matters and not what you're actually saying?
>For God to help you, a distinctive point.
Of course, my mistake.
>>17377534
Fun stuff, I'll probably start looking around for different books on the topic. It would be nice if they were educational and what they were saying was valid, but could be fun just for entertainment purposes too.
