Checkmate Christfags
How do you come back from this one?
>>17186288
bump :^)
>>17186288
Two conclusions i can come to, are
1. No one ever said he was "The big great, good, wonderful guy who is like santa claus and gives you what you want" i.e. a perfect world. at least not in the actual bible. The dude in that is jealous, needy, and kinda schizoid, but all-powerful, so you didn't have much of a choice opposing him. Old southern preachers knew this, you fear the guy, he could fuck your shit up if he wanted.
or
2. God is more of the fabric of reality and existence itself, and requires evil to appreciate the good. With a lesser frame of reference, the perspective of "good" and "evil" become skewed. Say we lived in a world where there is no conventional evil. No murder, rape, dishonesty, theft, ect. If we were still wired the same, evil would become something that seems to us, petty.
In a world like that, the new "evil" would be something like your coffee being too hot, or the wind blowing too hard. we would still come up with some bullshit to dislike. so our current reality has more relative meaning with our current level of "evil"
Personally, i believe in a higher power, but if he's anything like us (like genesis makes him out to be), he probably found himself being eternal, with all the powers he could think of, and most likely got bored really quick. So he created our current reality (and possibly others) and set about creatures and systems and laws to play around with, eventually culminating in us, one of his most interesting creations. we have all the curiosity and creativity of the creator, minus the raw reality-warping powers. We are countless millennia of entertainment, and i wouldn't doubt there are other worlds, and civilizations possibly more interesting. That's just our current chunk of reality, not to mention the countless others he (or she, or it, or whatever, hell if i know) has going on.
tl:dr
If there is an infinite universe how hard can it be to believe a being of infinite power created it?
>>17186288
Okay, so what's your point?
You're saying you don't think God is as great as everyone else says he is? Gee, what a unique and thought-provoking opinion you have there.
Seriously, what's even the point of this thread?
If scientists are so smart, how come scientific journals from one decade to the next say radically different things?
And notice how every time scientists are wrong about something, they make a new insanely bullshit story to cover it up? It's like a kid being caught in a lie.
A thousand years ago, we knew the Quran was the true word of God. And five hundred years ago, it was still the true word of God. Five hundred years from now it will still be the unchanging eternal truth. So take your aspie STEM computer studies degree and google THIS, nerd *flips you off*
>>17186479
That allahahaha angst though.
>>17186288
God could have created a universe with free-will but without evil?
Paradox, no?
>>17186479
I know this is b8, but still, I will reply.
Because unlike dogmatic books scientists actually try to research and test the world, they do not take things at face value because they were indoctrinated into a cult since they were kids.
Please, watch this channel, if your faith is strong and truthful indeed it will not shake it. Just watch these videos with an open mind till the end.
>https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9JU55HpvRvCSb1TO2w_eDA/videos
>>17186434
>You're saying you don't think God is as great as everyone else says he is? Gee, what a unique and thought-provoking opinion you have there.
Doesn't make this opinion any less true
>>17186479
Science is an observable phenomenon with laws. These laws do not change. There are many things in this world that we are still learning about so we create hypothesis to test and from these tests come theories. These things change often rapidly and radically from one test to another because we are literally fucking about and prodding the world around us trying to make it repeatedly to shit that we can verify as a law.
Take your horse shit goat fucking nonsense elsewhere
>>17186434
whats the point in pointing out the flaw in the beliefs held by billions of humans? gee i dunno
>>17186539
>3:46 am
>4chan
>/x/
I agree with you champ but this is the shittiest soap box you could be standing on to make your point
>>17186548
nah man down here its 7:48 pm
>itt fedora barks and wont shutup
why do you question there is.you sound like a sour kraut with no gf. that has rants with somebody too prove his statement. just be happy live your life dont get caught in nonsense.
This is just a quote from Epicurus, turned into a flow chart.
>>17186548
Kek
>>17186288
using throught-terminating cliches from 100AD?
Really? Oh no, you caught us, we seriously haven't made a reply to this issue in 2 millennia of apologetics
>>17186288
If the law of 5 is never wrong why does five only have 4 letters?
Erisians 0
Me 1
>>17186288
Saved.
>>17186288
That is not checkmate by a long shot.
If there is to be good there must be evil.
You only know by contrast. Hot and cold. Light and dark. You wouldn't know any of this.
But you want to know all this and so this all powerful God managed to create exactly that.
But it seems to be in human nature to be an ungreatful fuck.
And so you will naturaly punished yourself with having to run from the evil you have created yourself.
God is not here to cater you. Get a grip on reality every once in a while.
>>17186288
If god is an all-knowing, all-powerful being, then how can you pretend with your shit-stained monkey brain to barely understand his reasoning? Checkm8
But being more serious the last "could god have created a universe with free-will but without evil" is just a paradox because the moment there's no option you actually dont have a free-will. Maybe the universe is like a jenga-tower, yes you may have all the sticks to do it but the moment you build it in a non-stable way then it just falls over and that's it. The fact that it will not withstand doesnt mean that you dont hold all the sticks and can arrange them however you want. But then again we have no fucking idea about anything and here we are discussing how a higher being thinks.
>>17187000
Welcome to 2011.
>>17186288
>god is not good if he doesn't want to prevent evil
there's your leap in the logic, also if god created everything he must have created good and evil so why would he prevent something that he created
>>17187000
Save it; it's all yours, my friend. :^)
What if the existence of evil is as Augustine would say, "soul making" rather than just a test for the benefit of God. Meaning that the suffering resultant of evil is for humanities benefit, not God's.
>>17186288
>how do you come back from this one
By realizing it was made by some angry atheist or someone who hates God
God doesn't spoon-fed your reality and make everything magic and pixie dust, you gotta work for yourself.
Life would lack all essential challenges if God just "fixed everything"
We are here for a reason, because we have to finish our karmic debts, die, and hopefully we end up with God rather than rebirth or go to hell
>>17187054
Thanks, Lori.
God knows what we will do but He still lets it happen. That doesnt mean theres no point to it...Problem of evil is babby's first religious conundrum. Theres real reason to doubt but evil is a weak one. We have free will.
>>17187297
Is God all powerful? If so why couldn't he create a universe where all experiences that would result from "working yourself" would exist without any negative effects?
I mean, do you understand what logic defying omnipotence implies? He should be able to create a stone that is too heavy for him to lift and lift it at the same time, creating a perfect universe that also has free will shouldn't be a problem for him, hell creating a universe where we all die, are dildos, exist and do not exist at the same time shouldn't be a problem because HE IS ALL POWERFUL.
If you say that it was a decision than he is not all loving by default because he subjects people to torment when he has infinite and unlimited power to do all sorts of illogical things.
The best way out of this argument is for religious people to admin that their deity is at least to some extent not all powerful and limited.
>>17187052
both Catholic and Orthodox Christian canon state that evil doesn't exist and is absence of good.
It's either lack of love (lack of God which means that he is not omnipresent) or act of free will in denial of God...or some other bullshit to pretend that evil was not created by God and is someone fault,
>>17187021
> is just a paradox because the moment there's no option you actually dont have a free-will
You do not seem to understand the notion of omnipotence. If he is indeed all powerful, than all the logical dogmas of this universe should not apply to him and were created by him in the first place. He could somehow create a universe where free will exists and at the same time everyone is fine and dandy, I do not know how but if he is all powerful that should not be a problem.
If there are certain rules that were before him and some boundaries than he is in fact not all powerful.
>>17187342
the image is supposedly tackling belief of traditional Christian large parties like Orthodox and Catholic
If you are some sort of a Gnosticist or something like that, this doesn't concern you
>>17187336
The way I see it, arguing about it isn't going to bring us to any factual evidence.
God is the Holy Spirit, the only reason I believe in God is because I believe I have a soul.
>creation of the universe
I also think the Sophia / matter creation is imperfect, as well as Demiurge. So this beaches out into a longer conversation
We are the ones that are limited because we are physical bodies.
>>17187352
It concerns anyone really
The reason why people hate Christianity is because the Orthodox and Catholic churches, if they knew certain Gnostic truths and ideas, they are more likely to respect Jesus and find Him as the Savior.
>>17186288
completely neglects the evil nature of mankind and the path to salvation
>>17187347
You're the one that doesnt seem to understand what I said. If god influences your decision, or makes you unable to take the wrong path then you really didnt had a choice and as such the concept of free-will was not created and that is not what he wanted in the first place, because his wish was for free-will to exist is the first explanation that comes to mind.
The second one is that, yeah you do have the power to do anything but it doesnt mean that it will hold itself forever, like the jenga tower example I gave. You do have every stick available, you can arrange them in any pattern you so desire, but they're not gonna stay in that shape you desired if you do not build the structure in a proper way.
The way I see it you're asking why if god wanted a circle did not in fact drew a square and make it work like a circle.
>>17187405
Not that anon.
Even if you believe in God's guidence you can still be mislead by people/self/outside influences. Everyone has free will, but when you are attached to God, you really don't want to seperate from Him.
Why would you want to seperate yourself from God after realizing the cause of your suffering was being separated from Him in the first place?
I am He! Who hate that evil should be wrought in the World!
Very simple.
>>17187421
>"for many will come in My name and deceive many"
>>17187419
Tbh I'm not a firm believer in any god made by mankind. I'm agnostic and I dont like to think about this topic, however when I do I just tend to think that whatever form and plan he has in motion (if he has one) I would never be able to truly learn how it works because the sheer knowledge of it would most likely implode my insignificant brain. I mean we're talking of a being that supposedly knows everything in the universe past present and future, that sheer knowledge is something that no human would be able to take in, so pretending that we could ever learn what his purpose is or that we can device the logic behind such being is something both arrogant and stupid.
>>17187433
That's because man didn't make God. And God didn't make man (Demiurge). We have been robbed and placed into material existence (Archons) and the final destination is reuniting with God's Holy Spirit.
>>17186288
>An ant want's to understand a human with it's mental capacities
>>17187432
>32
Deus diligentibus te .
>>17187451
We can't percieve ant life. For all we kniw, their life span from their perspective can feel like 20 or 30 years to them.
>>17187452
>52
>>17186288
god is everything he is unlimited he is beyond laws of nature. he is so all powerfull that he can perform unperfect things in a particular point and time. good/bad is just human concepts what is good for you could be bad for others. there is a plan.
>>17187457
>>17187451
What's there to not understand? That flow chart is pretty on point. Why can't christfags on this board ever just say "take it on faith" instead of belittling others or making up flawed logical excuses then getting mad? Faith is the answer, yo, or do you lack that much faith that you must make excuses?
>>17187477
>>17187484
why won't people just submit and accept my superior logical conclusions depicted as a pretty chart with circles n shit.
>>17187566
Way to miss my entire point, you retard. Logic is irrelevant when it comes to god (and religion in general) is what I am getting at. All that matters is faith, not entirely blind faith, but a big dose of it.
>>17186288
This problem's actually an easy one to solve, even for an atheist like myself (or maybe because of all the atheism, who knows.)
You have two options in a creation scenario like this. You can either make the world perfect, which is to say purely good, no tragedy, no potential for evil, etc. But what's the point? Perfection is static. It doesn't move, it doesn't grow, it never becomes any better than what it is. It just sits there being all perfect and stupid and pointless.
True life involves growth. It involves potential and constant change and becoming new, never before existing things. But you can't do that without risk, without the potential for error.
The ability to fail is one of the strongest gifts anyone alive has. This freedom is also what allows for true growth, true life, the true potential to become more than just what we were created as. It also adds risk to existence, even the potential for evil. But it's a small price to pay to be something more than a porcelain egg locked forever in a single, perfect point in time.
>>17186539
What flaw?
>>17187616
The flaw illustrates in the OP you ridiculous idiot. If you don't think there's a flaw, say so and say why. Don't sit there like a goddamned retard pretending you're so fucking stupid you don't even know what the thread's about.
I swear to god, you fucking PEOPLE. You can hardly open your fucking mouths (figuratively) without saying something both dishonest and idiotic.
>>17187593
I can't tell about others but the concept of god in the abrahamic religions and induism make sense for me. OP logic comes to 2 flawed conclusions that god is either good but not all powerfull or allpowerfull but evil which is wrong(I assume he challenges the abrahamic model of god). Good/evil is human concept. And he is allpowerfull by definition. And there can't be just faith in god without atleast some knowledge of what god is. And "what god is" is what we are arguing about.
Athiest logic
Anyone can make a chart oP
Asking "can God create a universe without evil" is a nonsense statement. It's like asking "can God create a quiche without eggs?"
No one can create a quiche without eggs, because by definition, a quiche MUST contain eggs. And by definition, a universe must contain evil.
>atheists will try to refute this
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
go away silly atheist.
>>17187635
That's a stupid definition of universe, but a good definition of quiche.
mom, what if God refuses to stop evil?
>>17186288
>free will
>>17187635
>No one can
Well actually by definition an omnipotent being can do literally anything, even if it logically contradicts itself.
>>17187646
>That's a stupid definition of universe
Explain what's wrong with it.
>>17186288
Simple.
We have free will.
We can do good things or fuck things up. Preventing us from fucking things up would
remove the free will.
So does entities that are more powerfull than us.
>>17187076
Because of friction.
Friction on what level?
>>17187713
No, you idiot. That's not how it works.
>>17187052
Umm, because he's god? He is supposed to be a perfect being, devoid of evil. The idiot can't even love his own children correctly.
>>17186682
Epic post.
>>17187465
Just like god is a human concept. Kek.
>>17187620
This.
>>17187635
Funny how you think you know what you're actually talking about when it's fairly obvious no one could comprehend what god wants. Fucking retard.
>>17187851
>He is supposed to be a perfect being
He is. It's you who is imperfect.
>>17187341
>It's either lack of love (lack of God which means that he is not omnipresent) or act of free will in denial of God...or some other bullshit to pretend that evil was not created by God and is someone fault
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism
>>17187336
>He should be able to create a stone that is too heavy for him to lift and lift it at the same time
The stone argument is the most idiotic concept i've heard in my life. It's basically "Can infinity out-infinity itself by creating infinity+1? If so, can infinity outinfinity infinity+1?"
Look, OP has actually stumbled upon some pretty interesting philosophical questions of omnipotence paradoxes and theodicy problems, which have a variety of possible answers and views, which would be very enjoyable to debate if he didn't act like a fucking faggot that believes he cracked millenia of philosophy by ripping off an off-hand quote by Epicurus and screaming "I WON THE INTERNETZ. YOU JUST GOT PWNED, N00B$"
Yeah, I'm inclined to think that trying to argue teodicy with the predicament of a benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient being is fundamentaly fucked. The closest you gonna come to is either the whole cosmos being a sort of learning-machine (analogous with the idea of a becoming God) or an artefact created in order for the God to be able to percieve himself. However, these models don't really go well with the mainstream judeo-christian conception of God.
But anyway, I think these ideas are arbitrary anyway, since our minds and our speech are so very imperfect. Word of advice: if you are intent on figuring shit out, get used to being silent all the time.
>>17187894
Please, the last thing /x/ needs more of is ignorant teenagers claiming they understand anything about the nature of god.
God isn't a being with human intentions, you could ask yourself why God even bothered to create anything in the first place.
>>17187715
It's entirely arbitrary without basis for the declaration. "Evil," is neither subjectively applied to the definition of the English word "universe" nor is it objectively demonstrated to be inherent to such a concept. Therefore stating that this is the case as if it's established fact is stupid. Cute, but stupid. It's like a child donuts are defined by delicious. It's adorable, and definitely what that child believes, but it doesn't have any value beyond that child's subjective opinion of personal taste. Just like that silly claim about the universe and evil.
>>17187963
Not that guy, but if I understand you correctly, then by that logic you can't ascribe the colloquial term 'good' to the divine being either. What is the 'good' from your perspective anyway?
>>17187840
What do you mean by this?
>>17186288
The problem of Evil is definitely the weakest philosophical leg Christianity stands upon.
No answer is completely satisfying, but the one I prefer the best is that the current state of the world, evil included, is the best possible path to the best possible world.
And as others have touched upon, in ways more crude than helpful, God doesn't have the same perspective we have. What is 10 or even 20 thousand years in the face of eternity.
What he wants is for us to turn to him of our own free will. Not because it was the only option, not because of threat of hell, but because we love him.
Another possible answer to this flowchart is that each evil works out to a greater good than we can predict. We have limited perspective, God does not.
Seriously though, your argument is older than the bible itself. Smarter people than me have written books reconciling the issue of God and Evil.
>>17187999
That's his point. He's saying by that definition of good, the term is essentially meaningless.
His argument would likely continue that God is the objective being of goodness by which you measure good and evil.
>>17186288
Nobody said he was all good, or even good at all. He's just allegedly in charge.
dmx gonna give it to ya.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGx6K90TmCI
Ugh, why do atheists and Christians insist on making problems for each other? Like, at the end of the day, you guys are just arguing a point that neither side can prove for certain.
Stop caring about what others believe, and you'll live much happier lives.
>>17188144
If I'm a Christian, I believe the atheist is going to live a purposeless life and end up in hell.
If I'm an atheist, I believe the Christian is living by a series of meaningless dogma that causes him to live by silly, arbitrary rules that happen to control the government of the entire Western Hemisphere.
In which situation is it good to be silent?
>>17187960
>God isn't a being with human intentions
You sure about that?
>>17187963
God is a being which possesses every good quality and only good quality.
Goodness is a necessary quality of God. God is all good, and ONLY good, and does not and in fact cannot be said to possess any evil qualities (at least, not in our limited understanding of what "good" and "evil" entail).
The universe is not God.
Any thing which is not God, must have some quality or qualities which differ from God's qualities.
Any thing which differs from God cannot be all-good, and must possess some evil qualities.
Therefore, evil is a necessary quality of the universe.
>>17188144
>>17188144
Being superior to someone is something everybody's gotta feel. These are the traits people chose in this case.
>>17188144
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7XkNUhuJxM
agreed.
>>17186288
>strawman chart, fixed to hand you the win
You're acting as if God would care about controling every little bit of crap in the world. Being all powerful does not imply that you're going to use this power to meddle in everything. I sure wouldn't, if people do stupid shit, let them handle the consequences.
>>17186288
Fixed it for you.
>>17188564
How about the suffering of sentient beings? How about some of those beings inflicting that suffering on others on purpose, or even enjoying it? Is not something tangibly evil in that?
>>17188545
Well, it's actually primed against a Christian God. Notice the all loving section.
Still a bad argument, but Christians do maintain God wants what is good.
>>17188641
Do you have an objective measurement for good and evil?
>>17188651
I would say that Evil is that which forces one into ignorance, either by pain or by a blind pleasure. It also desentivises, and thus converts a person into a simple, mechanistical, reflex-arc creature. It brings about the absence of meaning in life, and makes an individual adopt some of the wide range of morbid stances: nihilism, nietzschean hedonistic 'morality', blind collectivism and obedience to authority, etc...
The Good on the other hand brings about an experience of the extraordinary, the exciting, the educative and the liberating. It is that which pulls out its reciever from the debilitating mud of the worldly existence. It is that which transforms, and extends the experience. It brings the realization of the true reality.
Now, the Evil and the Good are often muddled together, since the nature of our world is sadly deception. They're in constant flux - one can often transform into the other, and they are both leading an infinitely intricate guerilla war against each other. The Evil mostly dominates our world, but the Good is throughout time seeping into this prison of constant becoming and leading individuals towards liberation and salvation.
That's as far as my 'objective' conception of Good and Evil goes. I'm sorry that I can't give a simple socratic definition, but I don't believe such thing is possible in this case.
Satan's existence on earth is only a temporary respite:
[Quran 7:14-15] He said, "My Lord, respite me until the day they are resurrected." He said, "You are granted a respite."
Satan is a temporary god on earth:
[Quran 2:30] Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
[Quran 6:112] We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
[Quran 6:113] This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.
[Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
[Quran 15:14] Even if we opened for them a gate into the sky, through which they climb;
[Quran 15:15] they will say, "Our eyes have been deceived. We have been bewitched."
[Quran 24:21] O you who believe, do not follow the steps of Satan. Anyone who follows the steps of Satan should know that he advocates evil and vice. If it were not for God's grace towards you, and His mercy, none of you would have been purified. But God purifies whomever He wills. God is Hearer, Knower.
>>17189164
awliya-er Rahman
>>17186288
Not even a christfag and I see problems with your b8.
yes
yes
yes
no - but that doesn't mean he isn't loving/isn't good. Why is your definition of good "wants to prevent evil'? Ever consider that the most high godly power you're trying to strawman here is so loving that he also love's the evil that exists? Maybe there's a natural beauty in it. Then theres the whole thing about free will and hands off and all that jazz.
further down, why is there evil? I for one am wont to say because free will, some people choose evil. He could have, but what would be the point of creating a perfect system? Theoretically he could've made a universe with free will and no evil, but again, why does that point even matter?
You're starting with the assumption that the system we are living in is supposed to be perfect, when clearly it isn't. Just because it isn't perfect doesn't mean God doesn't exist.
tl;dr - you still can't objectively prove or disprove 'god'. strawman better you turd.
>>17188206
Atheists just got dunked on.
I think therefore I am.
I cannot prove the existence of anything that is no me; hence it must not exist.
Thus I am everything.
I love, myself know myself and control myself, hence I am god.
Were it the case that something else existed to me, then it could not be the case that I have proved its existence, and it must have therefore proved its existence to me.
Surely if anything were to be able to prove itself to others, it would be an omnipotent god?
>>17191796
Ain't no omnipotent God need to prove Himself to your lazy ass, calling yourself a god, you think He is going to reveal Himself to you?
