How does one self-actualize, /x/? Is it a thing actually achieavable, or just another, finer mesh to catch those who slip through the grips of either materialistic nihilism or exoteric religion?
Who was on to something? Gurdjieff? Osho? Crowley? Gnostics? Buddha?
Or maybe the Calvinists are right. Either you receive Grace, or you don't, and there's nothing you can do about it yourself.
Which path do you follow and how is your journey.
I just walk the only road there ever was.
Same as it ever was.
>>16952897
Everything is Grace
>>16952906
The Gospel of David Byrne?
Have one of Watts's books.
Basically you must first recognize your own nature, that you are a fleshy machine of sorts that can think and be aware of yourself.
But then you must also reconcile this with the fact that you will never be fully aware of yourself much in the same way an arrow cannot be aimed at itself.
But in making peace with this latter realization, you are closer to enlightenment.
>>16952921
I've listened him and other speak on this topic for hours. I understand it intellectually, but somehow it doesn't embed itself deep enough for me to have an actual, heartfelt REALIZATION.
Osho says sudden and instantaneus enlightment comes from oberving your mind, but what am i observing? What am i looking for?
>>16952897
Subjectivism and naive realism are shit tier philosophies. You don't need to "self actualize" as you are already real and actual in every way. Maybe you should focus on influencing your environment.
>>16953141
>You don't need to "self actualize" as you are already real and actual in every way.
It sure doesn't feel that way at times.
> Maybe you should focus on influencing your environment.
Elaborate. RAW style?
wright wrong, good bad, light dark.
is any one of these more important then the next?
you can't have one without the other.
i live in light and love. at the same time i respect and see the divinity in the dark.
because without it.... i would never know what it is to love.
>>16953151
I think it's pretty self explanatory. If you want things in your immediate environment, go and get them. If you don't like things then either remove yourself from that environment or remove the things that offend you. I think it's pretty simple stuff, I don't know how to elaborate much further.
Just came to say Alan Watts is da shit.
>>16953125
Exactly.
Give up on self-actualization, be quit of enlightenment. Alan Watts retells the same method of the guru, and that is to send his student on a path of inquiry which is never ceasing and never ending, to purposely watch the student become so frustrated until they give up.
It's at that point when they stop caring do they truly become enlightened. This is why Zen Buddhism is considered an anti-philosophy. It is a rigorous regime that's intended to ensure you stop thinking about thinking. The only truths you need to know is this:
>You are an expression of the universe
>Everything you are not makes you everything you are
>You are implicitly connected to everything else
>We are all one
>You already have enlightenment
>There is no journey to it, for as long you believe there is you will be blind of it.
I recall a thread on this topic on /b/ of all places. One anon said it best. 'Do sports'. Be active, make sure your mind is connected with the body and engage them both. Why else do you think Buddhist monks commit to such exercise and extreme cleaning of their shrines?
tl;dr be silent, do not engage in a quest to remove the ego, for it in itself is an egotistical endeavor. Just loosen up and flow.
10/10 reason why I come to /x/. You guys always make me look at things slightly differently
>>16953194
> If you want things in your immediate environment, go and get them.
> I think it's pretty simple stuff, I don't know how to elaborate much further.
Did you just unload a JUS B URSELF meme on me?
You are aware, of course that there are things such as circumstances, obligations and context, right?
>>16953234
>'Do sports'
I do.
>extreme cleaning of their shrines?
Do that also.
I guess i'm not frustrated enough yet to have this realisation.
>>16953273
My advice is to literally stop caring. Yúnmén Wényǎn, a Chinese Zen master was asked: ''Who is Buddha?'' His answer was: ''A dry shit stick.''
In this bold statement, he demonstrated that talking is useless. Contemplation is useless. It's all shit. Just stop caring so much.
>>16953125
You're just waiting for it to get tired and stop, that's the point where reality begins.
It's not necessarily instantaneous enlightenment but it is an enormous relief like a great weight being lifted.
>>16953297
>Yúnmén Wényǎn, a Chinese Zen master was asked: ''Who is Buddha?'' His answer was: ''A dry shit stick.''
Heard Watts tell that story a million times also. Maybe i'm not bright enough to really *get* it.
>>16953305
To *get* it you needn't be 'bright'. It shouldn't require any deliberation. The moment you catch yourself thinking about it is the moment you're wrong about it.
Enlightenment is already yours. I'd even wager you've entered it many times before. Enlightenment is when you're absent-minded, where your mind draws a blank and you're autonomous in nature.
When you're chowing down on good food. When you're having a nice fap. When you're in the middle of fucking a woman. When you're completely tethered to the world and experience it through being IN it. That's enlightenment. When you were a young child and everything mystified you, everything was clear and you felt on the same page as reality, that's enlightenment.
It was yours--is yours--and you can have it whenever you want. But what I'm saying is that you will be blinded so long as you keep convincing yourself you don't have it. Many 'enlightened' individuals may tell you otherwise; that it's a rigorous journey and only few men are worthy of it--ignore them.
Stop contemplating, just perceive in the here and now.
>>16952897
First you have to figure out what the self is friend, and for that you can only ask one person that question. You.
>>16953297
Literally just read this koan for the first time in my life an hour or so ago and now I encounter it here. Strange.
>>16953424
>Strange.
It is as it is
Guys, are we all really starting to come to it at the same time? What would the world look like if we all woke up simultaneously?
>>16953441
>time
>>16953415
I don't know
>>16952897
Dr. Hyatt
Joseph Campbell
Dr. Jung
...start by fulfilling Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs for yourself first.
>>16953441
Let's find out
>>16953234
I've honestly been in this game for a while and usually just come on /x/ for laffs but seriously the one guy who said an arrow can't be aimed at itself, and then you say everything you are not makes you everything you are. Both of those are p good.
The latter sentiment I am intimately familiar with in my own speculations, but that's just a nice way of saying it.
Eventually I've had to come back around to a accepting a phenomenal self that exists as other people see it. That's a dumb way of explaining it but it's hard for myself personally to really go hard on the Advaita or whatever and still function in the society around me. Other people call me a name and they see a person so might as well roll with it.
>How does one self-actualize
Social isolation, fasting, sexual abstinence, drug use, art and writing, and physical motionlessness.
>Is it a thing actually achieavable, or just another, finer mesh to catch those who slip through the grips of either materialistic nihilism or exoteric religion?
Every model is a mesh to catch your perpetual fall through space. Your body is an anchor for your soul, and your mind is in monist union with your body.
>Who was on to something
You.
>Or maybe the Calvinists are right. Either you receive Grace, or you don't, and there's nothing you can do about it yourself
Pretty much. The plutonium comes in the rain.
>Which path do you follow and how is your journey
The acetone path, and it's terrible. But I was warned, so I won't complain. I think I'll win in the end, despite everything.
>>16952897
I'm hoping my journey ends at the bottom of this bottle of whiskey. If I don't self actualize by that point then I'm gonna have to buy another.
ITT
>>16952897
He is a really neat guy, sort of a mystery.
He embodied the zen like persona then told us not to take it seriously, as it was just an act.
It really allowed me to listen to him without the fear I was idolizing the man and that would affect my understanding of his teachings, even though they are not really his teachings, he just seems to be discussing what has been pondered for thousands of years mostly and tries to marry it with western religious ideologies.
Listening to him is like listening to music, it starts, takes you on a bit of a journey, highs and lows, then at the end drops you back here and says "hope you had fun" now go enjoy yourself.
>>16952897
in tomas jesus says tels us to ''bring forth what is inside you, and it will save you, but if you do not bring it forth, it will damn you''
kindof like the story about servants and talents
being true to yourself
admitting that in trying to be true to yourself you will always fail
that others build a facile truth and attach it to you
you just see yourself as some being that comprehends and expierences.
That being true to yourself requires patience
How come the more i observe my mind and impose precepts on myself, all the more i get caught up in daydreaming and not adherening to these precepts?
I constantly end up going against things that i preach. Am i supposed to learn something here, or am i just a louse lacking in will and self-control?
>>16953141
>Maybe you should focus on influencing your environment.
This but, sometimes it's harder than you think.That's where negativity holds you back.
>>16953264
>You are aware, of course that there are things such as circumstances, obligations and context, right?
Negativity
>>16953297
>My advice is to literally stop caring.
Yea but, then what are you creating if you are not self aware?
(Negativity)
>>16953320
Exactly but, don't forget about the negativity.
>>16953684
You are perceived as others perceive you. You are as yourself always you.
don't get the two confused because of Negativity
Gurdjieff's pretty good but you must find the path yourself, the direction can only be given.
>>16952897
There were religious text that had a very vague description of what you were trying to find.
It's a matter of interpretation if you'll "get it" or not.
i think they all basically beckon towards intuition, which is sort of like being how you're supposed to be, in alignment with God.
unless you're a filthy materialist.
but that's just me.
>>16953264
Either an obligation is freely chosen out of one's desire, or one is a coward who lets himself be enslaved by the whims of others.
If you choose the obligations of following laws and paying taxes, you get certain things in return. It is a social contract, whereupon your natural rights are traded for civil rights.
If you do not like the social contract you are free to either kill yourself, be an outlaw with all the risks that entails, or move to a different nation that would take you in.
You are not free to sever de-facto contracts of mutual obligations by refusing others yet still obligating them under the same terms; such is the act of a tyrant. Negotiation is the arbiter of conflicting desires.
>>16954578
>>16954580
>>16954581
>>16954584
>>16954588
You'll have to expand on this Negativity thing, please, because i think you mean something other than the general meaning of the word in this context.
>>16954568
If you objectively observe your thoughts, especially while trying to focus on something like the feeling of your breath above your upper lip--not trying to change it, just watching (this is called anapana)--the thoughts will eventually tire out and stop. It may take awhile.
>>16954747
>the thoughts will eventually tire out and stop
I've been practicing meditation for the better part of the year now, and this has happened to me maybe 2-3 times. Either the chatter returns quickly, or i fall into a trance from then which abrubtly wake up like from a dream where you're falling.
>>16954761
Imagine you are sat at a table reading a book. There is a radio on nearby, at a noticeable volume. You are distracted by it, but if you persist in sitting there and concentrating on your book, the radio start to fuzz out of your conciousness and stop being a real distraction.
Just maintain focus on your breath, without actively denying individual thoughts, but passively accepting that you technically do want your thoughts to shut the fuck up, and after a while, they will shut themselves up, by themselves. What you resist, persists. Sometimes, some people will find it good technique to attempt to actively push away thoughts until they stop coming, but for others it is better to let them come and go as they feel like whilst maintaining your concious intent on the observation of the breath, and the will cease of themselves with patience, and repeated practice.
Of course, in the radio analogy, the radio will technically still be there in the peripheral vision of your concious experience, but it's just an analogy, they all fall apart at some point.
>>16953320
>Enlightenment is when you're absent-minded, where your mind draws a blank and you're autonomous in nature
How can I describe to someone the color red? Through science.
>Enlightenment is when you're absent-minded, where your mind draws a blank and you're autonomous in nature
Anyway, more relevant. How can one, never having reached enlightenment, explain enlightenment to other people? Blind men, in the same way, cannot explain visuals due to never having had a visual experience.
>When you're chowing down on good food. When you're having a nice fap. When you're in the middle of fucking a woman. When you're completely tethered to the world and experience it through being IN it. That's enlightenment. When you were a young child and everything mystified you, everything was clear and you felt on the same page as reality, that's enlightenment.
Young children walk on water?
>>16954814
>How can I describe to someone the color red? Through science.
It shouldn't need explaining, unless of course the person is blind. In this instance, it shouldn't need explaining, the blind person has no need to know of it since he can't know of it. It would simply be an unnecessary explanation.
>How can one, never having reached enlightenment, explain enlightenment to other people? Blind men, in the same way, cannot explain visuals due to never having had a visual experience.
I'll relay the story of the monk who--wanting to describe the path to enlightenment by writing novels--was shut down by his master. The monk presented his book and idea to the master, the master shook his head and told him: ''The sound of the rain needs no translation.''
Enlightenment is to be formless, to do away with 'you', that is to say, the idea that you're a ghost in a machine, a pilot of the body, an individual who observes yourself thinking about thinking--is perfect nonsense. The moments we are free from contemplation and live and act in the here and now are the moments we are enlightened.
>Young children walk on water?
What are you talking about?
At any rate, there is no 'enlightenment' in the mystical sense of the word. No mountain to climb, no journey to endure, you already have it. The only obstacle is telling yourself you don't have it. It is not a state of being exclusive only to the holy or the ascended or the 'masters'--that's an egotists dream.
>>16952897
>self-actualize
By answering that question for themselves. Notice the "self" in the term.
And who gives a fuck if it's a finer "mesh"? Is it a bad thing that people keep finding new ways to survive and live a life the feels meaningful?
>>16953297
>Yúnmén Wényǎn, a Chinese Zen master was asked: ''Who is Buddha?'' His answer was: ''A dry shit stick.''
>My advice is to literally stop caring.
A prime example of misinterpreting Koan cases such as this due to influences from lacktivist interpretations by Alan Watts and over-enthusiastic logical conclusions. Carelessness is the reason people end up in such trouble and despair. A similar master said that people of the world walk carelessly in hells as if they were pleasure gardens.
Yungmen is not saying that the Buddha is as useless as a dried shit stick
, or that contemplation is useless. It's much more difficult to crack this case than that.
>>16953320
>enlightenment is when you're absentminded
It's fascinating how many people believe this and motivate it with Zen philosophy, when countless masters have warned against the "deep pit" of blankmindedness. It's not about eliminating thoughts or stopping thinking. A person who studies Zen is not obstructed by thoughts and emotions even in their midst.
>>16955891
Would you give us you're own answer to the problem of the dried shit stick?
>>16952897
Have you tried stoicism?
Enlightenment is silencing the mind and observing reality for what it is while understanding the internal and external are one.
>>16955898
The point is not to understand the answer but the question. The student is asking about holiness and the point of spiritual practice in order to satisfy his seeking. But as long as the student thinks in this way, seeking external understanding through his faculties of discrimination and selfish interest, that mode of thinking is the very thing that obstructs awakening. He's seeking to escape himself. The master, knowing there's no point in engaging discourse about it, directly points to things-as-they-are, in their natural state. To a person who has freed themselves from the poisons of greed and ignorance of their true nature, a dried shit stick is Buddha.
If you are able to see things equally in every moment, without discriminating subject or object, better or worse, then you recognize that all things are of one nature, the shit stick is Buddha, and so are you. You don't need to be blank-minded in some artificial manner, but it's so easy to fool yourself that you're understanding this when it's just mental conjecture, while you're still wallowing in habitual discrimination. That's why it's difficult, it's about you and your life - the koan IS you. Can you humble yourself to the point that you would embrace a piece of dried shit as readily as the most holy ideal, and in this way be unbound by any obstacle?
A decent response to this koan might just be to wipe your own ass instead of Yungmen's and get on with your day.
>>16955972
>A decent response to this koan might just be to wipe your own ass instead of Yungmen's and get on with your day.
In other words, to stop giving a shit.
>>16952897
self-actualization was simply mazlow's way of addressing the fact that once we have food, shelter, water and sex, we tend to get bored.
You self-actualize by getting a fucking hobby.
>Or maybe the Calvinists are right
oh wow, hahaha. Calvin was a moron who's ideas break the religion he was preaching.
>Calvin was a moron who's ideas break the religion he was preaching.
Explain.
>>16953141
>>16953211
>>16954588
>>16954612
>>16955972
All excellent posts.
>>16953234
This post actually woke me up a bit.
>>16953253
It's the least we can do I figure.
>>16953273
Certainly sounds like it.
>>16953301
Only for the burdened.
>>16953305
>Maybe i'm not
Sounds like it.
>>16953441
Before enlightenment, chop wood carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood carry water.
What happens after we all awaken?
This: >>16950407
>>16953448
Welcome to the new age~
Never have I seen greentext used quite like this.
>>16953562
Good start.
>>16953575
Or anyone else you're karmically tied to.
>>16953684
>might as well roll with it
That's the spirit!
>>16954478
>always
>attach
>patience
Sounds like you're preparing for a long journey.
>>16954568
You have zero experiential reason to take the concept of strong principles seriously. You are innocent. Careful, you're a hot resource for the negative entities hanging around.
>>16954642
>i think you mean something other than the general meaning
The first two words represent your problem.
The second two words represent my problem.
The third three words represent hypothetical.
The last three words represent your realities.
There is a black hole inside man that cannot be filled by any religion. It is perhaps best described as the insatiable will of Arthur Schopenhauer. At all times we are subject to desire. Do not fool yourself that Christ or Buddha or Krishna was without lusts and appetites. Truly there is no one among us who is enlightened. And yet we pursure enlightenment anyway as the dream of a perfected man. Are we not but halfway between animals and Gods? Is it not possible for us to become Gods? Yes. When we merge with machines we will become "actualized".
>>16957244
>When we merge with machines we will become "actualized".
when we "merge" with machines you're gonna get a killswitch shoved up your ass and get sent to work the rice paddies for the elite.
>>16953234
Thanks man. I realize I always struggle to remove the ego, which is counter-intuitive.
"Just loosen up and flow" will be my new mantra for a while.
>>16955945
This
>get enlightenment
>post to .x.
yeeeee boi
>>16952897
gnosticism + pic related + american transcendent anarchism
>>16953234
>>16959592
also, i'd like to add that i don't think anyone can achieve a form of enlightenment or spiritual growth, which is not yet ment for him. i know people who meditate regularly and hope that by doing so, they'll get enlighthened somehow.
but i think that not hte enlightement, but meditation or whatever process of self observation you use is the point. just do whatever you feel comfortable doing to explore yourself and relax. that's what you're after.
for example, i like to just think about things that are happening to me, what my current problems are and about how i can resolve them, also what i learned from that. and i enjoy it immensely. for me, self reflecting is better than meditation.
>>16955891
>>16955972
This here, listen to this anon
>>16954612
amazing philosophy senpai. I just have to BE MYSELF, and if I can't then become an outlaw or kill myself. genius
>>16954462
I often think that if I could find a more beautiful way to see the world than through his eyes, I'd very likely be talking to God himself.
>>16952984
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kuhnhxrs0vo&list=PLH5LT3kL3vxqR4R0f4Su5pEtfQhqgZT67&index=16
>>16954568
Attend the beam in thine own eye before attending to the mote in thy neighbor's eye.
>>16953125
You're looking for the realization that the thing you think is observing your mind doesn't exist
>>16953195
Yes
>>16953234
To hear more on what this guy said, listen to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuGcF5N_9U8&list=PLH5LT3kL3vxqR4R0f4Su5pEtfQhqgZT67&index=17
>>16953646
Can't wait for the day, here's hoping it'll happen soon.
>>16953264
How is that a just be yourself statement? You're here wondering about how to "self actualize" which is one of the biggest fucking cop outs ever. Clearly just being yourself hasn't been cutting it. If you sit around waiting for enlightenment you'll end up storing regrets and resentments like acorns. Why don't you stop being yourself, stop being a fucking smartass, and do shit instead of thinking about doing things (which is the point of the quote by Blake).
>>16952897
Cruisin down the street in my 64'
jockin the bitches
slapping the hoes
Kabbalah tells us we as beings exist and go every moment in total opossite of spiritual reality... except this point in our hearts that can achieve spiritual quality and trough it our spiritual evolution...it requires the will to bestow something none of you rolepaying faggots have... you'd rather quote 100 occult books, meme 100 times and have others clap at your paranormal level, you're ego-centric, evil and stupid... there is no spiritual power we have as humans we can just sense the spiritual world.
>>16952897
I don't need much at all to be happy. Always posed a bit of a problem for ambitions.
The urge to get more stuff probably would have kicked in when i found a good woman and had kids but that never happened.
>>16964046
How do you balance apathy with ambition? Contentedness with motivation? Equanimity with a "drive"?
Living a dharmic lifestyle and keeping to myself for the most part. My approach is to master the basics and overcome distractions. I get what I put in.
>>16964102
It's not apathy, though. I enjoy working and have nothing against it. Should see my resume. Keep myself in good shape even when i'm not working. I just see through the bottomless pit of consumerism which seems to consume so many lives. I'm not always thinking the next purchase will bring me ultimate happiness and imagining how happy other people are with things i don't have. My soul is fed by knowledge and simple things like walks in the woods or drives down the coast. I do enough work to cover my expenses as best i can so it doesn't cut that deeply into my savings, and spend the rest of the time doing things i enjoy.
>>16964158
One non-material thing i used to be passionate about was changing the world, but i'm pretty convinced it's hopeless now. Used to derive pleasure from helping people but that's fading too. A giant fucking wasp appeared in here not long ago out of nowhere and i worry about that. Used to be Bees.
>>16959628
> I don't think anyone can achieve a form of enlightenment or spiritual growth, which is not yet ment for him.
Calvinism
>Who was on to something? Gurdjieff? Osho? Crowley? Gnostics? Buddha?
Philip Kindred Dick
>>16956752
Satyr?
