Why are System Shock and Deus Ex such amazing games?
Because Spector produced SS which was made my MIT graduates, and because Eidos and Romero gave him as much time and money needed to make his dream game. That doesn't happen very often.
Because they are games first, not interactive narratives
Is this the Epic Mickey thread?
They're good games because of the synergy of the team developing them
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/197021/Warren_Spector_Who_forgot_the_role_in_RolePlaying_Games.php
Here's something interesting. Spector wrote this article 2 years before Deus Ex came out, and it basically just describes Deus Ex. Spector actually managed to accomplish what he wanted to do in the end.
How big was his influence on the Ultimas he worked on?
Warren Spector is a hack similar to Inafune, he gets all the glory but the real mastermind after all the masterpieces is Doug Church
>>3353414
There were actually a fuck load of super talented people at both looking glass and ion storm (Paul neurath, Mark Leblanc, Seamus blackly, etc) not just doug church
>>3353414
Doug Church directed System Shock, did level design for Ultima Underworld and did object programming for Thief. He's brilliant but Specter has more games under his belt and hasn't dropped off the face of the earth.
>>3353414
Nah, he's no mastermind but he's not a hack either. He knew exactly what he was doing with System Shock and Deus Ex and had just the team to do it. His games since then have been wrought with publisher fuckery, deadlines, incompotent devs, scrapped ideas, a lot of shit out of his control. A lot of shit in his control, too, of course, but I don't think he's ever conned people the way Inafune did.
>>3354085
>publisher fuckery
every single game ever. Can't wait for the whole concept of a publisher to die off
>>3354097
You think the "new" system of "slap a big name on your project and try and make millions from pre-orders before you even start work" is better?
Publishers are a necessary evil. The issue is the cost of development nowadays making the jews far more risk-adverse, not the jews themselves. Without them, so many games would have run over-budget, been acquired wholesale by other companies, and finished off by amateurs. It's better to have a good team constrained, than leave a good team free to let a bad team ruin it later.
>>3354105
pre-orders are a publisher thing
>Publishers are a necessary evil
no, not even remotely
>The issue is the cost of development nowadays making the jews far more risk-adverse, not the jews themselves
they are at least partially the cause of the senseless budget explosion, by emphasis graphics over games, because they have no clue how to games. They are constantly fucking devs over
>Without them, so many games would have run over-budget
it's not their job to interfere with the development process. They can fuck right off
>>3354112
>>pre-orders are a publisher thing
I'm talking about kickstarter here, that's the only viable alternative to the traditional model.
>no, not even remotely
Then how do you fund a game? Distribution, sure, we're in the digital age, but how do you scrape together the tens of millions required for development as a developer?
>they are at least partially the cause of the senseless budget explosion, by emphasis graphics over games,
No, that's the customers. There's a reason you don't see 2D indie games priced at 60 dollars, and that's because nobody will buy them.
In an ideal world, sure, we'd still be using PS2 tier models for everything and games would be fantastic. But the public won't pay for PS2 games anymore.
>it's not their job to interfere with the development process.
Yes, it is. If you're supplying the money, you should have some say about deadlines. It's all well and good for some devs to come up with a great new feature for their game in a meeting, but when it takes them 6 months to implement, then either everyone gets a paycut or you just finish off the game as best you can. You don't just keep working and hope for some more money to fall into your lap.
>>3354126
>that's the only viable alternative
it never is
>how do you fund a game?
Not my problem. I know your response already, and I mean what I said, not my problem. Creativity will find its way. Certainly better when there's no publisher sticking its nose in halfway through.
>tens of millions required
yeah, no. That's bullshit inflated numbers of the perversion of the current industry
>No, that's the customers
people will play anything offered to them
>There's a reason you don't see 2D indie games priced at 60 dollars, and that's because nobody will buy them
the prices are set by publishers for maximum profit, they do not reflect cost in any meaningful way. $60 is not a quality indicator. Many modern games exceed that price point massively
>But the public won't pay for PS2 games anymore
You obviously asked them, and know their motivation to buy games
>If you're supplying the money
Their job is to publish, and otherwise get the hell out of the way. That they're paying for shit, deciding on the fate of projects and developers is utter bullshit
>you should have some say about deadlines
publishers know fuckall about gaming. And that's me being kind to them. They are the worst entity imaginable to dictate any aspect of the development process. The rest of your post effectively says developers are drooling retards that can't plan their business, which is insulting. You know you're in a Spector thread? Fucking dude had the opportunity to do whatever the fuck he wants, with unlimited money, and he's a developer. It gave us a one of a kind game. One of the few instances where a publisher could not fuck with a developer and it's fucking gold.
So, fuck you, and the publishers you felate. We have video games despite these fuckers, not because of them
>>3354892
Thief is a much tighter game than Deus Ex and I'm not sure if making the playstyles broader would improve it. Still glad we got both games though.
I know he's working on System Shock 3, but have they said anything about him working on Underworld Ascendant?
https://youtu.be/d9q8oxkhnvI
>>3356653
I think he's just advising for Ascendant. They have a few key LGS devs working on Ascendant though.
>>3353225
From my understanding he came into underworld 1 late and did more work on underworld 2 and system shock
I liked Ultima Underworld more than System Shock.
>>3360369
I think most people do.
>>3361339
most people haven't played either game
>>3361340
maybe once night dive releases UU enhanced
>>3361342
why would you butcher a game like that, or play the butchered version?
>>3361343
>mouselook and better support for modern systems is now butchering a game
>>3354139
You can't make games out of happy tougths and guts. This is not a sports anime.And yes, game developers are drooling retards that can't plan their businesses, there are far more examples of it than the opposite.
>>3360369
How. Both of them have undefendable interfaces and dumb design choices, but at least SS has a decent inventory.
>>3361397
>game developers are drooling retards that can't plan their businesses
Publishers are no better. At least game developers understand a thing or two about game developing
>there are far more examples of it than the opposite.
where's the problem?
>>3354139
If somebody decided to release a game with ps2 or 2d graphics for 60 dollars people would go apeshit.
>>3361404
why? Why that price, and why that expectation? Are you saying players are that dumb? Are you that dumb? You're a player, aren't you? If you can think, why can't they?
>>3361402
Game developers don't understand anything about project managing, releasing in time and actually making money out of their work. That's so much better. But hey, if you think throwing money on the Star Citizen scamtruck, feel free to support those downtrodden visionaries.
>>3361412
>Game developers don't understand anything about project managing, releasing in time and actually making money out of their work
why? People are not allowed to learn more than one trade, or hire specialists?
>>3361413
Yeah, people that put deadlines in projects and market the game. And guess who these people are.
>>3361408
Are you really this disconnected with people? It's always been this way. The genesis had "hi-definition graphics" plastered on it for fucks sake.
>>3361397
Pretty sure there have been more successful game kickstarters than there have been failures and scams like star citizen and mn9.
>>3361484
I wouldn't put my hand on the fire for that. I've seen plenty of scam projects, horribly mismanaged projects that went nowhere and eventually ran out of money, and projects that got delayed and resized massively.
>>3361496
I've seen plenty of great projects that went somewhere and turned out to be great games.
>>3361505
Most of Kickstarter games are niche in someway, and all ended up to be rough all the same. See Wasteland 2 for its terribly formulaic and generic structure with no fun stuff and terrible pacing, Pillars of Eternity and its autistic fixation on mechanics to the detriment of an actually engaging world and story, Showel Knight and its generic gameplay with a coat of passable pixel art. And those can be considered successes, even if not by much.
so that i dont have to make a new thread i'll post it here, some hours ago i finally finished system shock, it was hard but if i ever get to do a 2nd playthrough things might go better, what do you guys think of it? (SS1) for me SS2 was better but nonethless worth it
this is my 3rd spector game i think?
>>3361537
It has a better interface than UU, and no dumb RPG skills that you never use. Other than that, the music is awful and leaving it out enhances the game a lot, ambient noises are pretty good for a 1994 game.The final SHODAN fight is a joke. Fight your way in a poor Descent clone to fight SHODAN's screensaver in a damage race.
>>3361386
How would you implement mouselook?
OS support doesn't seem that big of a deal with emulation.
I kind of wish you could play UW1 with the engine of 2 since it has a larger window and fixed some rendering quirks. Or one of the attempts to make a new engine to get anywhere.
But at the same time it's amazing to see how much the game did in 1992.
>>3361397
>How
Because I can put aside dated interfaces and enjoy the game behind them.
>>3361418
not the publishers
>>3362253
You either naive or just dumb.
>>3362338
You're telling me if a developer employs accountants, a marketing department or project managers, and they do their work there, they're publishers?
>>3362148
The fractal interface of UU is too much of an issue to be ignored, especially since you spend more time juggling stuff back and forth from your inventory than actually playing the game. And then there are the skill system half composed by either redundant or useless skills and the overly complicated movement system where you can go ridicolously fast of you can press the arrow andat the same time press the sprint and fast forward key.
>>3362350
>fast forward
isn't that fast forwarding time?
>>3362354
You have a walk key, a walk faster key and a sprint button that makes you go faster in both cases. So four different "legitimate" speeds, for God knows what reason in such a game.
>>3362345
And I guess the funds come out of thin air.
>>3362368
again, does fast forward affect time or not?
>>3353414
Every thread.
>see this guy, this guy did a thing
>nah that guy's a hack, guy 2 is the real guy
>>3362370
Why are you being deliberately obtuse? Don't bother answering, I suppose. You're not actually interested in the subject
>>3362372
There is a sleep button, if you mean that for fast forward. But I'm talking about the sprint button that makes you do stuff faster.
>>3362404
>makes you do stuff faster
all stuff or just movement? Any other indicators that it fast forwards time?
>>3362350
The inventory is fine. Try playing Ultima 7 or 8 to see actually bad inventories.
Only weird thing about the movement is the ability to run on water.
>>3362410
Why are you fixated with fast forwarding time? It's that your fetish? You move faster, you jump farther, you turn quickier. And yes, that means you can run faster than you can run.
>>3362413
Arx Fatalis has a fine inventory, not UU. I cannot see why you need inventories inside inventories inside inventories.
>>3362423
I'm asking because that would explain the isues you have.
Moving Forward is a motion, Sprint is a faster motion. I don't know if it comes with strings attached (exhaustion, time limit). Fast Forward is not a motion. It just advances time faster, seemingly accelerating all actions, active and passive. That obviously means you seemingly move faster (you don't, the same in-game time passes), but also all other actions you do are affected, including things like healing, poison effects or hunger.
So, sprint and fast-forward-time are two very different things, conceptually, and hence should be two different buttons. That you can stack sprint and fast-forward-time for seemingly excessive movement speed is an artifact that you didn't think through
>>3362423
>I cannot see why you need inventories inside inventories inside inventories.
You don't. There's no real reason to do so in UW. Two, three bags on the front do the job fine. Maybe a map case for scrolls and a small pouch for keys to things tidy.
Carrying too many bags just eats up carrying capacity.
>>3362368
Running with W still gives you decent control over where you are going. With Shift+W you are just blindly dashing ahead.
Shift+D prevents you from falling over ledges.
>>3362483
>That wouldn't explain why you do a long forward jump with Shift+j.
it wouldn't, which is why I asked repeatedly if it forwards time in general or if it is purely a motion thing
>>3362483
>That wouldn't explain why you do a long forward jump with Shift+j.
Because it's useful. Trying to make running jumps on small platforms is a pain in the ass.
You can have one bag for plot items, one for usables and one for things you aren't sure about.
>>3362491
>one bag for plot items
better hope it's a solid high quality bag. You'd hate for it to have some plot holes that things fall out of
>>3362492
Plot items are protected from sinking into water or lava or otherwise getting destroyed.
>>3362494
I was just making a lame joke. Also, indestructible they may be, but if they fall out of your bag without you noticing, you'll do a lot of really annoying backtracking to find them again
>>3362490
It doesn't do anything by itself. You hold it to unlock extra functions of the movement keys.
>>3362350
I never said it wasn't an issue. I 100% agree that the UI is a mess and could be much better. Same goes with SS, but give it some time and stay patience you quickly get the hang of it and becomes easier to play.
>>3362497
>give it some time and stay patience
so true for almost every game, regardless of age. Patience has become a bit of a rarity though
>>3362497
I think the UI was amazing for its time.
The main thing that needs change is jump being J instead of something easier to reach with your left hand like the spacebar but that's easily changeable in DOSbox.
And looking up or down is normally too much effort to bother.
>>3362494But that's a plot point.
>>3362497
I already played and done both. It's still not good.
>>3361554
what? i thought the music was good, it made shit the pants on the groves and lvl3, also, it seems that the lore is a bit darker on ss1 than on ss2 with the experiments and all but the cartoony looks dont make it justice, yeah the final battle was mehh, i even had to slow down the cycle to have some more seconds to shoot the necro-icecream cone but that's classic of looking glass (leaving the endings quite unpolished because of the budget and deathlines)
>>3362525
I personally found it pretty overdone. Blaring MIDI all the time, suffocating a pretty good sound design. I always play SS1 and 2 with music off, I just can't stand it.
>>3353062
>Epic Mickey
Man, that game was such a letdown. Anyone remember how the concept art was hyped as fuck on /v/?
