I've been wondering is there a reason this boss battle was so graphically sparse?
I mean this is the climactic fight of the game and the setting seems to be nothing more than a very simplistically represented castle and an entirely black background
it seems like its in stark contrast compared to the rest of the game which has very colorful and well detailed visuals
>>3347058
>not knowing mode 7 limits
Mode 7 can only work with backgrounds, so Bowser is a background character in that battle. The fight runs smoothly enough, but having more background textures would have slowed everything down on the SNES, so they probably made it black to avoid that.
I really love this battle because it puts emphasis on Mario's ability to throw objects upward. I remember I struggled it a lot as a kid because I would get nervous and kick the mechakoopas sideways instead of upward, or couldn't time it right. Now I can do it blindfolded.
>>3347087
some games are more clever at hiding it, but mode 7 bosses all have simpler graphic setups.
The best imo is Axelay stage 2 boss.
the dark green fits the tunnel, with some vents and joints here and there. But if you shoot lots of bullets you'll see those flickering because of sprite limit.
>>3347087
Castlevania IV, another early game, used it with a boss, but that also had a solid black background layer beside the boss. It would be better utilised later in the lifespan of the console.
another obvious example
>>3347138
Took me a while to beat that fucking boss.
Good game.
The SNES Picture Processing Unit (PPU, aka GPU) can operate in one of 8 different modes per scanline, called Modes 0-7. The difference between these modes lies in how many backgrounds are drawn, the color depth of those background's tiles, and what special effects can be applied to the backgrounds.
For instance, Mode0 supports 4 backgrounds, each with 4-color tiles, and the non-standard special effects include ability to flip tiles horizontally and/or vertically, ability to add/subtract backgrounds for transparency effects, and the ability to output a pseudo 512 pixel wide image.
In Mode7, there is only 1 background, it can have 256 colors, with the unique special ability to apply a 2D affine transform to the background, as well as having the choice to directly specify color data in the tiles rather than an index into a palette, the pseudo H512 thing, and oddly enough background add/sub (this may have been an expansion feature).
So how did game designers use Mode7 for things like boss battles? Clearly the boss is the single Mode7 background layer. To make it appear that there is a second layer, usually sprites where used to draw the room and character. Sprites on the SNES are more numerous than backgrounds, but are better suited for small independent graphics that move around by themselves, like the player's character. To use them as a substitute background is clever, but there are limitations. For instance, no more than 32 8x8 pixel sprite tiles can be on the same scanline. If you exceed this number, some tiles don't get drawn. This is the primary reason for the sparsity of Mode7 boss environments.
Make sense?
I like the simplicity. I never even noticed the lack of "good" graphics in the fight until you mentioned it.
>>3347238
man super metroid hides this well
you've all played 8bit games that have big bosses moving about on black screens, its the same thing.
>>3347271
It means it's bad boss then.
>>3347731
>pitch dark backgrounds are a bad thing
How? it makes final battles more ominous and menacing.
I get that the main reason the background was black on SMW was because of Bowser's mode7 effect, but at the same time I think it sets the mood just fine.
>>3347743
Sorry, I said the most retarted way I could.
I meant with good game and a fine boss you usually don't pay attention to its graphics.
Black-backgrounded bosses are pretty atmospheric though.
>>3347058
>it seems like its in stark contrast compared to the rest of the game which has very colorful and well detailed visuals
That's the entire god damn point. You are at the endboss, you are fighting a firebreathing turtle dragon who slaved the entire land and kidnapped the princess, not fighting a pink pony.
>>3347087
>it seems like there are plenty of games that use mode 7 while at the same time having more complex graphics on the screen but maybe its just because those games were released later
Maybe these games were better coded? Or maybe they used special chips? Or both, who knows. What other games do mode 7 better?
>>3347104
>that design
>all that piping
>that weight as it walks
>that giant visor
Fuck, Axelay was such an a/m/azing looking game.
>>3347963
yep, screw the haters, Axelay is one of the greatest game ever.
>>3347943
>What other games do mode 7 better?
you can't do "better" mode 7 on stock specs, you can be a bit clever on how you implement it but that's it.
Yoshi's Island does more stuff simply because it has an additional chip that is more powerful than the console.
>>3348205
>you can't do "better" mode 7
By better, I meant having mode 7 without needing to sacrifice a proper background like in OP's pic.
>>3348227
You could just have hardware that does proper sprite scaling/rotation, instead of drawing the sprite as a tile on the background layer.
Pretty sure the Megadrive can do HW sprite scaling on the X axis.
>>3347943
I'm thinking about all those games where you control a sprite flying over a mode 7-ified landscape
you know FF, Demon's Crest, Actraiser, etc...
it seems like this was one of the most common ways to use mode 7 and it also looked pretty good and achieved a believable effect
From the thumbnail it looked like some Duck Tales game.
>>3347943
>What other games do mode 7 better?
several games used Mode 7 to simulate a 3D environment:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_3clFDpXrg
>>3348392
Axelay vertical levels don't use mode 7, it's a common mistake.
>>3348259
>Pretty sure the Megadrive can do HW sprite scaling on the X axis.
First time I hear about that. Got any source to back up?
The only related thing I remember is that you can set sprites to normal or 2x size. But no other kind of increase or fractional scaling.
>>3349265
Road Rash games use brute force sprite scaling
Mega Turrican does brute force sprite rotation and scaling
gasega68k homebrew do brute force rotation, scaling and even mode 7 like by using a sram memory trick.
possible because of 68000 power
SNES can't do because its CPU is anemic.
and on a side note, MegaCD has a dedicated scaling/rotation chip, but bus speed limit it at 15fps (reason why Sonic CD bonus stage is so choppy), and 32x simply brute force everything.
>>3349291
>brute force sprite rotation and scaling
what's that?
>>3349302
you use the power of your CPU to do calculations needed to scale/rotate, instead of having a dedicated chip doing it.
>>3349304
that's a new definition of "brute force" for me. Oh well
>>3349265
not that guy, but lots of 2d hardware can do vertical only scaling by the use of horizontal interrupts. vectorman shows it off 3 times before you start the game.
>>3349304
B-b-b-but aren't CPUs no different from other ICs?
>>3349342
CPU is general purpose.
Dedicated chips can only do specific functions, but do them much faster.
>>3347759
I don't know why but I always enjoyed black background in most 2D fights. I love seeing fights when it's just the boss and hardly anything else. Makes them pop out and makes it feel like they have way more weight. NES Dragon Quest after 1 handled it well personally and that was also the limitation of the system.
>Going through your status screen
Loved that shit.
http://archived.moe/vr/thread/3347058/#3348414
Why was this post deleted?
>>3347281
If you have an emulator that allows for the disabling of layers, you can watch the game jump from Mode1 with the room on bg layer 1 and Ridley on sprites, to Mode7 with Ridley on bg layer 1 and the room on the sprite layer, then back to the default setup. The constant color addition + HDMA gradient effect adds a lot to an otherwise black room.
>>3349810
aren't we glad 32 sprites just so happen to cover the entire width of the screen? Developers pulling this trick would be so royally fucked otherwise
>>3349721
screencap it and let asian moot know that this place needs a new hotpocket
>>3349326
oh, you mean that, okay. He said X axis though (so horizontal scaling), not Y axis (vertical).
>>3349827
He was probably referring to the fact that the Megadrive's VDP can do row-scrolling, while the SNES can only do line-scrolling, giving MD the edge in terms of parallax effects.
Sprite manipulation was usually done in software on the MD.
>>3349721
>Super Castlevania Bros
To make fun of Australia-kun and feed his paranoia.
>>3350212
So the janitor deletes legitimate posts just to fuck with an alleged shitposter.
All the more reason his ass should be fired.
>>3350228
Why don't you come to the secret IRC and complain directly?
t. the owner of 4chan
>>3350232
Why don't you stop shitposting, autist?
>>3350232
>t. the owner of 4chan
Reported for impersonating hiro.
>>3350236
Mad as fuck, aren't we, austry?
>>3350242
A. I'm not the Britfag computer/Sega fanboy you call Australia-kun
B. Using his memes out of jest doesn't automatically make me him
>>3350228
I honestly don't care, what I don't know is why don't they just range-ban Australia-kun's ISP.
>>3350251
Well, now you know, next time don't use his memes "out of jest" and your posts won't get deleted. Not too hard, isn't it?
>>3350257
Since when is using memes against the rules, though?
Are you that butthurt over someone calling Castlevania IV "SCB"?
>>3350261
>Since when is using memes against the rules, though?
Some stuff is bannable offense in different boards. 4chan isn't public domain, it's still private. If you want your own rules, make your own chan, it's not hard.
>Are you that butthurt over someone calling Castlevania IV "SCB"?
No, but you asked why your post was deleted, I answered why.
>>3350263
>Some stuff is bannable offense in different boards
Point to a rule anywhere on 4chan that forbids giving silly names to games.
>No, but you asked why your post was deleted, I answered why.
Yet you tried to derail the thread with more Australia shenanigans.
Face it, you're just as bad as him for wanting to egg him on.
>>3350271
>Yet you tried to derail the thread with more Australia shenanigans.
Not him, but it was you who wanted that by using one of his memes.
Just let Australia-kun RIP in pieces, guys. He had a tough life.
>>3350271
>Point to a rule anywhere on 4chan that forbids giving silly names to games.
>You will not post any of the following outside of /b/: Trolls, flames, racism, off-topic replies, uncalled for catchphrases, macro image replies, indecipherable text (example: "lol u tk him 2da bar|?"), anthropomorphic ("furry") or grotesque ("guro") images, post number GETs ("dubs"), or loli/shota pornography.
Australia-kun is a known /vr/ troll who likes to instigate console war flames, and his memes can be categorized as "uncalled for catchphrases".
It's not that big of a deal, you weren't banned, just don't impersonate him again if you don't want your posts deleted.
quote by wiiqwertyuiop:
>Mode 7 - Allows you to stretch, move, and rotate a image on layer 1. Note that you ONLY get layer 1 and the sprite layer in this mode, unless you mess around with the EXTBG in mode 7. This layer also has 256 colors.
what is EXTBG?
Can we talk more about Australia-kun guys?
I feel that you spergs don't reference him enough.
>>3351318
>what is EXTBG?
>When bit 6 of $2133 is set, you get a related mode known as Mode 7 EXTBG. In this mode, you get a BG2 with 128 colors, which uses the same tilemap and character data as BG1 but interprets the high bit of the pixel as a priority bit
http://wiki.superfamicom.org/snes/show/Backgrounds
>>3350324
Until "being an Australian" gets added as a rule, I don't think the janny should just randomly delete shit on a whim.
>>3352059
When are you going to stop running in circles? If you don't want your posts deleted, don't shitpost, simple as that. That includes using Australia-kun's troll (1) flame (2) catchphrases (3). It matches 3 points of the rules.
>>3352121
I think you've had enough (you)s for the day
>>3352141
Excellent rebuttal. Looking forward to the next time you cry when janny deletes your shitposts.
>>3352121
The post he deleted wasn't a shitpost, though, and copying memes isn't against the rules, regardless of how much you hate Australia-kun.
>>3352153
It contained an australia-kun uncalled for catchphrase. I don't even hate australia-kun, fellow gacktposter, I'm explaining the other person why the post was deleted.
He could re-formulate the same post without the aussy meme and it won't get deleted.
>>3352145
you are quite delusional
>>3347058
It's fine, their lightning and mode 7, and badass boss music.
>>3347058
The SNES couldn't scale sprites until cartridges were able to include special chips (like in Yoshi's Island). There is no background when you fight Bowser, because as far as the game is concerned Bowser IS the background. This is what lets him fly at the screen.
This is why all the other bosses except Lemmy, Wendy and Big Boo didn't have backgrounds. The background was sacrificed to allow for things like that tilting platform in the lava or the rotating wheel Reznor sits on.
>>3353482
This is also why Super Mario Kart and F-Zero has separate sprites drawn for every size.
>>3347058
>it seems like its in stark contrast compared to the rest of the game which has very colorful and well detailed visuals
There's your reason
>>3352165
Wait, so you get to post shitty memes but the other guy doesn't? Double standard as fuck.
>>3347104
Still sad we never got Axelay 2.
>>3348205
Wait, Axelay has haters?
>>3355708
Not that I know of, it has always been highly regarded.
Maybe that one guy who posts here all the time who hates anything that's on a Nintendo system.
>>3356059
Damn, that's really impressive
>>3355708
go to any shooter thread (or even 4chan own /stg/) and you'll have many smartasses claiming Axelay is 2casul, 2ez, style over content and so on
>>3356869
They may or may not be wrong depending on subjective opinions, but they're tryhards nonetheless
