When did NiGHTS become the definitive Saturn game? I had a Saturn since 1995, and the only two titles that got any real buzz on the system were VF2 and Sega Rally. I know the system did a lot better in Japan, but looking at Japan's top 10 best selling Saturn games, Nights isnt even there. So where did the revisionist history come from?
>>3275872
Because the Sonic fandom says so
>>3275872
I remember A family friend gave me a Saturn that they won in a contest. It had a Nights Demo CD that I thought looked amazing. Unfortunate this was in 1999 or so and there were absolutely no Saturn games to buy in my Mall.
The only reason I wanted a Saturn was because of NiGHTS. That was the one game was going to be the system seller for me. But I ended up getting a Saturn a few years later in the 2000s.
>revisionist history
Maybe you live in 3rd world or something.
>>3275872
Depends where you live:
Japan: Virtua Fighter and Sakura Taisen sold the system
Europe: Sega Rally and Worldwide Soccer were its most two popular games
US: Nights into Dreams was the big marketed game for it.
Sonic and Sonic Team were more of a hit in the west.
Didn't it come with a special controller? Ive only played the psn version is it that much different from the original? Is the Wii sequel any good?
>>3275904
The controls are fucked in the PSN version. Saturn version with the 3d d-pad is the way to go
>>3275904
Yeah they messed up the acceleration in the PS2 port. It's fixed in the HD version on Steam. I don't know which they used on PSN.
>>3275904
NIGHTS came in
Long box
Special cardboard box with jewel case and controller.
Demo jewel case.
Think there's only 1 revision of the software. No idea on batch differences.
The ports are meh.
The Wii game is a "sequel". Pretty good. Very cheap too. No waggle shit as an option too which is rare in that trash heap of a library. Should play it with a pro controller. Only con for it is it's a bit too hand holdy and the text you have to read and can't pass is a bit much. I've had issue with SEGA games and bad batches for the Wii. Something to watch out for.
>>3275872
It was the best selling Saturn game in Japan in 1996: http://web.archive.org/web/20160303171323/http://www.the-magicbox.com/Chart-BestSell1996.shtml
Virtua Fighter was the systems killer app in Japan, but the VF series isnt as popular in the West, so it kinda gets ignored in Saturn retrospectives.
>>3275909
The acceleration in the PS2 port is more 'nonexistent' than 'messed up', it uses the analog sticks but Nights seems to move entirely digitally. I must try the HD port, nothing has quite compared to the feeling of the Saturn controller yet.
>>3275872
>So where did the revisionist history come from?
Once Sonic fans started using the internet.
over here, Nights was considered a pretty and fun game, but with seriously simple gameplay that would only grab the attention of children.
>>3275914
Nights never had any software revisions. The long board and jewel case editions are the same game.
>>3275890
Mine came with Daytona USA, Virtua Cop, Virtua Fighter 2, and a NiGHTS demo. One hell of a bundle.
If you got a Saturn around 1996 or 97, you were getting this demo disc with it.
It had 2 levels (one with each kid) and a promotional video.
I don't know if it's THE definitive Saturn game but yeah it's kind of like Saturn's own mascot I guess.
It's a fun game, there was a time it was among my favorites games ever.
seeing nights on tv in the us was the reason i wanted a saturn. and virtua fighter.
>>3275872
You're not remembering the 90s very well, then.
I've been reading Saturn Magazines lately and NiGHTS won GOTY in all of them. Review scores for the game were very high and the hype was unreal. People wrote in furious that they couldn't get a copy of Christmas NiGHTS when it was being distributed in stores. Even a year later, NiGHTS was still brought up as a must-own Saturn game.
>NiGHTS being the definitive saturn game
>Not panzer dragoon
>>3277259
>not Zwei
>>3277267
You raise a good point, friend.
>>3277250
GameFan was all about that Saturn Bomberman
>>3277418
Saturn was gonna get Street Fighter 3?
>>3277418
NiGHTS was released a year prior and from their best selling games list, was the 4th best seller of 1996. Considering it had 4 months to sell that year, it did pretty well. I'll admit I haven't gotten around to GameFan but I imagine NiGHTS was on their GOTY list the year prior.
>>3277421
No, it was dismissed fairly early by Capcom, citing hardware limitations. Virtua Fighter 3 was speculated to come to the Saturn for a long time.
>>3277431
VF3 Saturn was 100% finished, but got cancelled in favor of a Dreamcast launch.
>>3277250
Well, Sega Saturn UK Magazine did a Top 50 and the top 10 was:
10. Street Fighter Collection
09. Tomb Raider
08. Power Slave
07. Marvel Super Heroes
06. Virtua Cop 2
05. Fighters Megamix
04. Duke Nukem 3D
03. Nights into Dreams
02. Sega Rally Championship
01. Virtua Fighter 2
Nights was definitely one of the more popular Saturn games in the UK, but I'm pretty sure OP is right that Sega Rally and VF2 were the systems main games. At least here in Europe.
>>3277435
I don't see a gap between NiGHTS and the others. NiGHTS caters to the platformer/action game crowd. The Top 3 should be considered main games, all are cited as must-own games. Duke didn't play well on Saturn and Megamix is another fighting game so I can see there being a fairly large gap there from NiGHTS, but NiGHTS being way below the top 2? Nah.
>>3275872
Nights was the reason I wanted a Saturn. I already had a PlayStation at the time in fact. Later I ended up ordering Japanese games from the back of GameFan magazine and I ended up pleasantly surprised. The Japanese library. I was also able to find Guardian heroes for sale at Sears for like $10 along with dragon force
>>3277502
NiGHTS was basically the Saturn's Goldeneye. VF2 and Sega Rally were its Mario and Zelda.
>>3277694
I'd say VF2 is like Mario (a genre changer), Sega Rally is like F-Zero (Racing at its best), and NiGHTS is like Zelda (Ambitious action game). For what its worth, F-Zero X is my favorite N64 game.
>>3275894
How were those Sakura Wars games? I've played the PS2 one that came to the states, and I found it to be average.
>>3277718
Wouldnt Mario Kart fit better?
>>3277814
Thematically it does but I don't think Mario Kart 64 holds up as well as Sega Rally/F-Zero X. So to me, no.
>>3277827
What about Daytona? I mean the Daytona team even made a F-Zero game
>>3277418
that's EGM, not GameFan.
>>3277435
NiGHTS is actually the highest original Saturn game on there.
Rest are arcade ports. :P
>>3277435
That was their top 10? Duke Nukem is good but #4? SF Collection wasnt even as good as the PSX version. And Marvel Super Heroes? Really?
>>3275872
This and Virtual On are the only reasons why I want a Saturn.
>>3275872
>looking at Japan's top 10 best selling Saturn games, Nights isnt even there
Wrong
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=206049348&postcount=492
>>3278232
That list is PAL only. MArvel Super Heroes had a shit slow port but that's normal on PAL games, so it came off as incredible over there.
Eh, anyone who has been a Saturn fan since its release knows that Nights is to the Saturn as Mario 64 is to the N64. Japan had a much larger Saturn library than the West did, but even so I would be surprised if Nights didn't make the top 10 in Japan.
>>3279069
There's a sales chart posted two posts above you.
>>3278276
NiGHTS is on PC too now, fyi.
>>3279074
Shit port though.
>>3275892
This. It was the same for me.
>>3279069
>Eh, anyone who has been a Saturn fan since its release knows that Nights is to the Saturn as Mario 64 is to the N64.
That would be Virtua Fighter 2, not Nights.
>>3279052
01. Virtua Fighter 2 <FTG> (Sega) {1995.12.01} (Â¥6,800) - 1,681,884
02. Sega Rally Championship <RCG> (Sega) {1995.12.29} (Â¥5,800) - 735,145
03. Virtua Fighter <FTG> (Sega) {1994.11.22} (Â¥8,800) - 677,910
04. Virtua Cop <STG> (Sega) {1995.11.24} (Â¥5,800) - 620,528
05. Fighters Megamix <FTG> (Sega) {1996.12.21} (Â¥5,800) - 608,026
06. Sakura Wars <ADV> (Sega) {1996.09.27} (Â¥6,800) - 552,590
07. Daytona USA <RCG> (Sega) {1995.04.01} (Â¥6,800) - 546,228
08. NiGHTS into Dreams <ACT> (Sega) {1996.07.05} (Â¥5,800) - 503,376
09. Shin Megami Tensei - Devil Summoner <RPG> (Atlus) {1995.12.25} (Â¥6,800) - 472,932
10. Fighting Vipers <FTG> (Sega) {1996.08.30} (Â¥6,800) - 458,394
But that is only to 1997, Saturn had a lot more time on the Japanese market left.
>>3275872
Is it bad that I find Nights hot?
>>3279412
Follow your heart.
>>3279078
How so?
>>3279412
OTP
>>3275872
The most popular Saturn game in the US was Die Hard Arcade if Titan counts.
If there was a definitive first party, original Saturn game, it'd probably be PD Zwei. It epitomizes the heights of the system (arcade shooters) while arguably being one of if not the best exclusive.
Problem is it didnt sell super great, so consensus is divided between Virtua Fighter 2, NiGHTS because heavy US marketing and "muh Sonic Team", and SPORTS/RACING in Europe. Honestly, the best first party Saturn games are the ones that didn't do so well...for some weird reason.
>>3280608
Burning Rangers and NiGHTS are better games then Zwei overall.
>>3280613
>Burning Rangers
I can accept this.
>NiGHTS
This, however, is just wrong.
>>3280615
Nights is pretty divisive, my little brother has always hated the game but I think it's great.
>>3280620
It's okay, but it doesn't touch Burning Rangers, the Panzer Dragoon series, etc. Shit, I'd put Astral and Clockwork Knight over it.
>>3280629
>>3280615
Gameplay:
NiGHTS is still the only game with that kind of gameplay. It's a unqie aracde style system. Love it or hate it.
Zwei is a great 3d rail shooter. Probably the best,
Graphics:
Giving this to NiGHTS because the designers did the best they could to hide any pop up and fog. When it's there it's to add to the dreamworld usually.
Zwei looks nice but suffers from a lot of pop up and fog.
Music:
NiGHTS OST is among the best of generation. Among the best of all time game music.
Zwei not so much. The first game was better in that area.
NiGHTS is a better game overall.
>>3280632
>NiGHTS is still the only game with that kind of gameplay.
NiGHTS 2 and Rodea exist.
>"Objective" breakdown.
I know we're on /vr/, but please don't be autistic. Just give your opinions like a normal person instead of subdividing it.
>>3280654
>NiGHTS 2
A sequel.
>Rodea
Waggleshit flying sonic game.
>I know we're on /vr/, but please don't be autistic.
If you're going to rate games then it helps to break things down.
>>3280667
>If you're going to rate games then it helps to break things down.
Having a very well organized presentation of your opinions doesn't make them any less subjective.
>>3280713
Not really opinion anymore when it's the consensus.
>>3280632
>Giving this to NiGHTS because the designers did the best they could to hide any pop up and fog.
No they didn't. You can see the popup very easily if you pay attention, or when you fly close to the ceiling/ground. And the game does not have any kind of fogging, it just pops polygons up in the distance.
Sonic R is the only Saturn game that actually did fogging. Panzer Dragoon Zwei attempted to do so by make polygons in a distance go very light or very dark, but that just made them stand out more against the backgrounds.
I wish more Saturn games would've used the fogging trick that Sonic R did. It's so very easy, and comes at nearly zero resource cost because it is all done by the background processor.
>>3275872
>When did NiGHTS become the definitive Saturn game?
It's not though. Anyway it's on PC so the saturn version is redundant.
>>3275872
It's the most well-known Saturn game that isn't an arcade port.
>>3281114
>You can see the popup very easily if you pay attention
Where?
>Sonic R is the only Saturn game that actually did fogging.
This is false.
You can see fog used in Nights for the first boss (Gillwing). When beating him normally by popping his head off multiple times. When his head goes flying you see it go into the fog and then disappear.
If you don't put fog into the game then all you have is the background wall. Which only the shittiest of games do usually. You can see it in a lot of PlayStation games. Garbage like Jersey Devil.
Zwei has fog too but not much. It's the pop up that is noticeable. It's not "real" fog but designed in the background layer to look like fog.
My funcoland had a kiosk with the 3D controller and this is one of the only games to have ever completely blown me away. Worked my ass off doing oddjobs and saving allowance that fall just to buy a Saturn for it
It's always been a cult game. Anything Saturn was/is. Just because the sales sucked doesn't mean there wasn't respect for it though. Even Miyamoto admitted in an interview back then that he wished he designed Nights
>>3279423
>>3279429
I have this book, it came with the PS2 version of Nights (shit port, but it was worth getting for the book alone)
>>3275872
>When
Never
>>3281149
Except the PC version is shit
>>3281760
>PC version is shit
>PC version literally contains Saturn version
>Along with a remaster and extras
k
>>3281778
The controls were altered, and the Saturn version means its just Saturn graphics, not the Saturn game. Also, the Christmas Nights portion is missing content, most notably Sonic.
>>3277418
>Someone posted a quote of Bernie Stolar praising the Saturn.
Why is this not the real discussion here?
>>3281802
like how Grandia's #1 anticpated game and Stolar cancels it.
>>3281872
It still came out on ps1 and nobody gave a shit.
>>3281881
Yet another victory for Bernie Stolar.
>>3281884
Bernie Stolar is basically the Bobby Kotick of the 90s. You can hate him but he's usually right when it comes to business.
>>3281872
>Stolar cancels it
nice meme
it wasn't brought outside japan because it tanked in sales (barely hit 100k) and soj said fuck that shit
>>3282116
What did he cancel besides X-Men Vs. Street Fighter?
For the record Sega Europe did give Capcom the greenlight for the game but Capcom Europe realized it wasn't worth the investment, so it probably would have happened in the US too.
>>3282170
The Saturn itself?
>>3277434
That's just some stupid rumor. It was developed for the Saturn at one moment but there's no official documentation out on how much was exactly finished.
>>3282312
It definitely existed on the Saturn though.
As did Shenmue, actually.
>>3282476
>perhaps with some more dedicated vram or another sub processor.
lmao
good luck getting more than 50 MB/s bandwidth from the cartridge slot, adding a useful video processor through there is impossible
>>3282274
>The Saturn itself?
Sega themselves cancelled that; they wanted Stolar to build up dev connections for the Dreamcast instead.
As for the games, most of them were "cancelled" in the sense that they realize that they had 100 Saturn owners in north America so it would be pointless to localize any more games.
>>3282476
iirc yuji naka confirmed an interview that it was running on a stock unit. There are also rumours that they had 2 versions, one in hi-res, one in low res.
>>3282521
Yu Suzuki not yuji naka, fuck.
>>3282524
Either way I'd like to see footage of the Saturn version one day.
>>3282519
Cartridge slot? That's not the only expansion port on the saturn, there's another one.
>>3280732
The consensus of one person? Popular acknowledgement dictates objective quality? Get your head out of your ass.
>>3282949
>The consensus of one person?
Nice oxymoron.
>Popular acknowledgement dictates objective quality?
Popular acknowledgement? We're talking about a small circle of people that care about these games.
The whole contrarian to be cool thing is getting old.
>>3279412
Well, the thing is Nights is supposed to be androgynous so as to be considered as neither male nor female, but can be seen as either. Which is why either a male or a female can become Nights.
I see Nights as more of a male because of it's figure.
>>3282960
>Nice oxymoron.
That's the point you fucking moron. You're calling it a consensus when you're the only person breaking it down like this.
You're twisting the higher popularity of NiGHTS into some kind of "fact" that it's a superior game to anon's favored game.
It's not "being a contractual" to point out that your opinions aren't objective facts and your head is so far up your own ass you're confusing them with a consensus.
>>3283209
>Contractual
Contrarian.
Thanks, phone.
>>3283209
>You're calling it a consensus when you're the only person breaking it down like this.
You're underage aren't you?
I can tell by how you think I'm the only one who likes NiGHTS or something. And all the name calling along with no understanding of how media is rated.
IN THE NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHTS
>>3277250
Back in the day, Blockbuster Video rental places around me were blowing out copies of Xmas Nights for a dollar each.
>>3283216
He's just calling you on your bullshit. There is no consensus.
>>3283403
Sorry but what delusional world do you live where Zwei got betting reviews than NiGHTS?
>>3283403
>>3283493
Is the argument on the definition of consensus? It would mean that everyone agreed. It appears that's not being the case here.
I am a fan of Nights. From what I remember when it came out it had commercials for it. Even a promotion on Fox Kids for a chance to win a Saturn and a copy of Nights, as well as a trip to somewhere if I remember correctly.
I thought it was rather popular for the time. At the very least well known about.
>>3283518
con·sen·sus
kənˈsensəs
noun
general agreement.
It doesn't mean every single person agrees.
>>3283529
Oh, right.
At any rate that doesn't seem like that's what's happening here either.
Well, I don't know exactly how popular Nights is. It was at least able to get a sequel and a couple of ports. So, that's something.
>>3283518
I honestly dont remember any Saturn commercials.
>>3283638
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoYyztfOc-0
>>3283638
There were a few. I remember at the end of them they'd have this blue head fly on screen and scream "SEGA!"
A couple I remember are Nights and Sonic R. The Nights one had the head have jesters on it's head like Nights. The Sonic R one had people riding on office chairs racing one another using things like fire extinguishers impede the other racers.
>>3283642
I don't remember this commercial being that antagonistic towards the Playstation.
>>3283227
DREAM DELIIIIIIGHTS
>>3283648
There was also this "gem" for Fighting Vipers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8OrUHodpdI
>>3283713
I don't remember that one for shit.
>>3283716
I saw it like twice back in the 90s. Honestly it's kind of a forgettable commercial compared to Sega's previous adverts.
>>3283493
The "delusional" one called "the real world". Feel free to google top Saturn games and see for yourself. Not that rankings for one arbitrary game you choose have anything to do with consensus on another.
>>3283713
WTF was Kalinske thinking
>>3283991
>Feel free to google
Google parrotor. Well that certainly explains a lot. Confirms the underage.
>>3284659
Third person getting in. Again.
I looked it up. I didn't look through the entire page. Just the first three sites listed. From what I found is that Nights 2 out of 3 sites ranked higher than Zwei. But not by much. It appears that there's not much disparity between the games popularity/quality.
>>3284592
>WTF was Kalinske thinking
The Saturn literally had no games due to the early launch, and it had the weakest tech of the generation, so they had to show how surreal they were instead of the Genesis commercials where they could tell you how much better they are.
>>3284659
Back again >>3285523. Couldn't bother myself last time because it was late. This time I bothered to go through the entire page and it just more or less reconfirmed what I said.
This site doesn't even have Zwei listed, but mentions it off hand for Panzer Dragoon.
https://draculascave.co/2015/11/16/the-sega-saturn-owners-guide-part-ii-the-20-must-have-saturn-games/
>>3285530
The Nights commercial is pretty kalinskesque.
>instead of the Genesis commercials where they could tell you how much better they are.
Negros screaming at me while comparing a kart racing game to a platforming game? No thanks, SoA marketing fucking sucks dick.
>>3275872
NiGHTS was the Saturn's "Mario 64" and the Saturn's Sonic Game.
>>3285582
Sega of America marketing was literally flash in the pan/bottled lightning. It just worked at a time where edgy/smug was the thing that could take down Nintendo. They totally failed after the Genesis to make a market impact.
I firmly stand by the statement that Sega was a one console developer.
>>3285589
>I firmly stand by the statement that Sega was a one console developer.
I agree, the Saturn was their greatest achievement outside of the arcade.
>>3285594
I think the Genesis was when they did their best. Saturn was the fumble, although it did well in Japan, the Genesis did better.
>>3285589
>>3285594
>>3285603
Genesis would have been popular with or without SoA's marketing. Kalinske's best job was to convince SoJ to release Sonic 1 bundled with the system, to compete with the SNES which came bundled with SMW, but the marketing was just silly. People wouldn't have fallen for it if the games on the system weren't really good.
Saturn failed in the west because SoA couldn't face Sony. In Japan they did a much better job.
Saturn remains the most popular Sega system in Asia, that's no small feat.
>>3285603
Meh. Genesis was filled with top selling sports games.
One console I don't really bother playing anymore is the Genesis.
>>3285603
>>3285614
>Saturn was the fumble, although it did well in Japan
>Saturn failed in the west because SoA couldn't face Sony. In Japan they did a much better job.
It better had. Or else.
>>3285631
Exactly, that's how you make marketing, not SoA's shenanigans.
>>3285649
It doesn't matter. Saturn did well in Japan because it had a good selection of games and the best arcade ports. The Segata ads being great and memorable in a good way is not the reason Saturn was successful, it's just a nice extra touch by SoJ.
>>3285649
He had his own game for the Saturn
>>3285649
>There is absolutely no evidence that the Segata Sanshiro advertisements were pivotal for the Saturn's success in Japan, except meme status.
He was the goddamn mascot of the machine, and on top of the ads he also showed up in live events. He was a goddamn rock star, not just an advertisement.
>>3285603
Here in the UK Sega had 2 hit consoles: Master System and Mega Drive
>>3285742
No one really cares about the UK.
>>3285748
Well, Master System got a 2nd life in the US as the Game Gear, which was a moderate success.
>>3285530
It had Panzer Dragoon at launch.
Far better than any PSX launch title.
>>3285759
I'm sorry, I meant to say that they had no consoles to launch. They had fuck all inventory, and spread the little they had among a few retailers. Plus it was stupidly expensive.
All of this made the unit a 3do tier garbage in North America.
Once they got production of the unit up and running, and had more games too, the retailers who got burnt by the early launch then refused to carry stock.
>>3285776
Ok that makes sense.
Yeah Saturn should have just launched in September at $300 with VF Remix.
>>3285631
Cant argue against a picture of Segata.
>>3283493
The world where the difference between the two by media aggregates is 2%, Zwei had fewer reviews, and every single other Panzer Dragoon did better critically than NiGHTS, even the inferior original.
But that's putting aside the fact that only children and autists hold review scores up as objective standards of quality. Whichever game you like better is your preference, not an indisputable constant.
>>3287329
>only children and autists hold review scores up as objective standards of quality.
Nice strawman, famicom.
Sorry your pet game is objectively inferior to NiGHTS. I'm not using "objectively" as a meme.
>>3284659
Top kek kid. You're the one who said reviews were all important. Now you're assmad because they don't back up your claim. Sure does confirm the underage.
>>3287357
>You're the one who said reviews were all important
Quote me where I said that.
>Top kek kid.
>Sure does confirm the underage.
The irony.
>>3288701
Yes, exactly.
If a dragon and a jester can get along, surely the fans of either of the two can.
>>3279423
Why is s/he sitting on nothing.
>>3289318
Nights is kind of like a mime sometimes, also likes to play an invisible flute
>>3288982
Yugioh?
>>3290485
Yes. Yes, it is.
