Find a flaw.
>>3228586
It's a shmup
One of the very few remotely interesting ones, but still
Not as good as Radiant Silvergun.
it's literally perfect
Not even remotely close to touhou 2-5
Ikaruga has no flaws. Its the perfect shooter shmup. No need to play any other shmup
>>3228594
This.
I love Ikaruga and even own it on three systems but even I can recognize it's not the best. It relies far to heavily on the polarity mechanic which takes away from the visuals and the atmosphere.I enjoy R-type Leo more
>>3228586
GameCube kiddies and Steam sale plebs who never played a shmup before this one.
shitty bullet hell for steam babbies
the only criticism that shmup nerds can come with is "not a cave style shooter" and "it has puzzle elements, ergo NOT AN SHMUP". So they can't, really.
>>3228848
Or gamecube/steam babies. Game is fine.
>>3228848
I count at least two criticisms in this thread already
>>3228586
Shitty bullet absorption gimmick.
Scoring system that forces you to kill enemies in the order Treasure wants you to, or else you get punished.
Last stage is only a minute long and has some of the easiest zakos in the game.
Most of the backgrounds are ugly shades of brown, gray and yellow.
The only cool boss design is stage 1's. Treasure is known for having awesome bosses, so what went wrong here?
>>3228586
It's not very fun to play for score, at all. Chaining feels lke a chore.
I doubt people calling it 'best shmup' ever even bothered to play anything else.
>>3228913
>Last stage is only a minute long and has some of the easiest zakos in the game.
The last stage in bullet hells tend to be "straight to the boss".
It makes many autists mad, but I don't know if that's a flaw or a virtue.
>>3228983
I didn't know Touhou games were the only bullet hells in existence.
>>3228913
>The only cool boss design is stage 1's. Treasure is known for having awesome bosses, so what went wrong here?
NAMI didn't work on it this time. He did make most of the bosses in Radiant Silvergun, though.
it's really slow and boring for a shooting game
This is coming from a person who enjoys R-Type enough to 1CC R-type 3
>>3228586
It has no soul, rather just throws as many enemies and projectiles at you as technically possible and calls it a "game", even though the only ones likely to enjoy it are sperglords with eidetic memories.
>>3228586
It's probably the only STG where enemies will suicide into each other for no reason.
>Treasure
There you go.
>>3229229
Ain't they drones? What's so wrong about that, that's a valid attack tactic?
>>3229093
>it's really slow and boring for a shooting game
But at least not as boring as Radiant Silvergun was.
>>3228586
If the ships can move really fast why do the bullets move really slow?
>>3229239
Contrarian much? Treasure is generally considered a great dev, no matter how much you try to force your nobody opinion.
>>3229243
Whoever programmed those drones was a retard then. They're supposed to suicide into the enemy, not their allies.
>>3228913
>Scoring system that forces you to kill enemies in the order Treasure wants you to
That's the case for every shooter. The more you play for score, the less options and freedom you will have.
>>3229348
I don't remember having to kill 3 of the same enemy color types in a row in Dodonpachi.
>>3229320
Treasurefags sure are sensitive.
>>3229368
The chain routes of high level players are always the same tho
>>3229370
Nah, I haven't even played most of their games, I only played their Genesis stuff, but they're among the best games on the system. I heard their N64 stuff is also among the best. Shut the fuck up, contrarian hipster tryhard fag.
Twitch shooting is fine, but it's a high bar of entry.
>>3229384
Is it really twitch if you have to memorize the whole game in order to play it?
>>3229387
Isn't that the whole point of playing STGs?
>>3229398
Depends on the STG. Some of them like to mix in RNG, like Armed Police Batrider. Ikaruga doesn't have any RNG, though.
>>3229408
Most classic STG are memory-based and lack RNG.
RNG is never good if you want to get pro at it. (pro as in actually winning contests, etc. RNG is a no-no for that kind of thing).
>>3229408
Ikaruga also has RNG, but not to the extend as Raizing games.
If that's good or bad is a preference thing. I for example dislike the thought that my score depends on luck.
>>3229438
You're dumb. Lots of WR holders play shmups that have RNG in them.
>>3229464
It's not luck, it's showing that you can think on your feet in intense situations.
Playing a 100% static game is dull.
Some of the most awful bosses in the genre
>>3229487
You have no clue what you are talking about. Take Black Heart II in Battle garegga for example... Your score heavily depends on good RnG there for high level players, since BH II has attacks which throw destroyable bombs around which give a shitton of points.
Apart from this, is it obvious that you didn't even really play Ikaruga, because Ikaruga also has RnG, but not on a level where it really influences your score.
>>3229497
>Don't have destroyable bombs
>Have destroyable bombs but don't have them give points
This is pretty easy to solve.
>>3229507
Doesn't change that it's there though. Just like many other things. Getting really score on the flamingos in Garegga for example also depends on luck.
>>3229491
Ikaruga also has RNG enemies.
>>3229497
>but not on a level where it really influences your score.
That's what makes Ikaruga shit. I'd rather have a game be random-ish but interesting than static but boring.
>>3229526
If you have such a problem with memorization based gameplay, I think STGs are not the genre for you anyway.
Every STg is memorization for the vast majority. Some games just have a few exceptions with RNG here and there, but this is somethign Ikaruga actually has too, but not just on a level where it becomes intrusive and luck dependent.
>>3229539
No, I like other shmups, Ikaruga just goes to the extreme in terms of puzzle-like design.
Gradius III, an actual good shmup for example, has no puzzle elements.
>>3229379
Kill yourself.
>>3229542
Every shmup is something like a puzzle game, you fucking retard. It's always about finding the right strategy and building upon it.
People like you who complain about Ikarugas scoring system are just too retarded to actually score in the game, that's why you complain about it.
>>3229379
>Shut the fuck up, contrarian hipster tryhard fag.
Not everyone who doesn't think Ikaruga is a flawless masterpiece is any of those buzzwords. Don't be so sensitive, Treasurefag.
>>3229543
anti-Treasurefags sure are sensitive.
>>3229553
>It's always about finding the right strategy and building upon it.
Doesn't that make them a Real-Time Strategy game then?
>>3229553
>People like you who complain about Ikarugas scoring system are just too retarded to actually score in the game
Nah, people don't like its shitty ass scoring system because it's simply not fun to play unless you're a robot.
>>3229559
If you're going to jump in, at least have the decency to follow the conversation. It wasn't about Ikaruga it's about Treasure in general.
If you think Treasure sucks, you're a contrarian hipster, there's no other way around it.
Note that you can still dislike games by them, or be indifferent to them, but claiming they're trash means you're just a contrarian fishing for replies on /vr/, which means your life sucks.
Again, I'm not even a treasurefag, played 3 games by them and only completed 2. Thought they were great.
>>3229570
>If you think Treasure sucks, you're a contrarian hipster, there's no other way around it.
Or maybe that person is entitled to an opinion?
>>3229570
>you're a contrarian hipster
>you're just a contrarian
So basically Treasurefags can only speak in buzzwords, got it.
>>3229576
>playing shmups on a higher level is always demanding to the point where you have to play almost like robot.
Only memoshit shmups like Ikaruga. Hell, even Touhou games have more variety and depth than Ikaruga does.
>>3229576
>Strategy game, puzzle game, call it whatever you want.
No, you retard, that's not how it works. Ikaruga has puzzle elements because of its scoring system, not because all shmups require strategies to master.
>>3229591
But that is a flaw. Treasure is overrated as fuck.
They peaked with Guardian Heroes.
>>3229585
>memoshit
Shmups in general are "memoshit" you fucktard. They are not about twitch reflexes or whatever, they are about finding your strategy, perfecting, and being able to execute it.
Seriously, just fuck off. You obviously have no idea about this genre, and just shitpost here about Ikaruga because you are just another edgy 4chan hipster.
>>3229583
>buzzwords
>uses "Treasurefag"
I don't know anon.
>>3229593
>They peaked with Guardian Heroes.
You mean Mischief Makers, right?
>>3229590
Even pro players like Clover-TAC say that shmups are rather puzzle games than action games, you fucking retard.
>>3229593
Not with Alien Soldier? Or Sin and Punishment?
Also
>overrated
speaking of buzzwords. Anti-treasurefags are just as bad as treasure fanboys tbqh.
>>3229595
>They are not about twitch reflexes or whatever
The good ones are. But keep thinking your robot shmups are worth fuck all.
>Seriously, just fuck off. You obviously have no idea about this genre, and just shitpost here about Ikaruga because you are just another edgy 4chan hipster.
And you're a salty kraut with shit taste in shooters. End yourself immediately.
>>3229598
>mfw finally got A rank the other day
I never noticed you could SHAKE SHAKE the machinegun to get bigger shots, though it was tricky to time the jump and the shaking.
>>3229606
>The good ones are.
No, only the really simple ones are, where you can't even form any strategies.
>>3229601
If you can't tell puzzle 'em ups like Ikaruga and Twinkle Star Sprites from Gradius and R-Type, you're a fucking clueless moron.
>>3229613
Once again, shmups having routes you need to form does not make them puzzle games, you dipshit.
>>3229615
Ikaruga is heavily inspired by games like R-Type, you retard. In fact R-Type is known on its own to be full of puzzle-like gameplay.
>>3229626
>R-Type
>puzzle-like gameplay
I'm done with you, kraut-kun. You clearly don't know what words mean.
Go back to playing your uninspired flashy Cave ripoff, Crimzon Clover.
>>3229620
>>3229638
Yea, sure, because some random fucktard on 4chan has more idea about this genre than superplayers like Clover-TAC...
>TAC: (laughs) I don’t think of these games as “shooting games”… like NAL said, I think they are closest to puzzle games. As a general rule, you’re basically always thinking “if this bullet pattern comes, I dodge it like this!”
Shmups are only twitch based, if you are a complete noob at them, who only casually plays babby modes.
>>3229597
>I don't know what a buzzword is
Expected nothing less from a Treasurefag.
what are some good shootemups that aren't memory tests?
I like the sound of them more, I haven't really played a lot of shootemups.
>>3229641
I may detest this autistic fucking dick splash soon to be hijab wearing kraut cum eater but unfortunately he is right on this occasion.
>>3229782
Fine, yours isn't a buzzword, it's a boogeyman, which is even more childish.
>>3229641
With that logic, fighting games, racing games, and practically any game with some modicum of depth is a puzzle game. Next time try to not appeal to someone else's authority and start thinking for yourself instead.
>Shmups are only twitch based, if you are a complete noob at them, who only casually plays babby modes.
Good shmups fuse strategy and reflexes, not 100% memo such as Ikaruga. Also the 3x color combos is what makes Ikaruga have puzzle elements, not because of some shmups needing strategies which you must figure out.
>>3229593
>They peaked with Guardian Heroes.
I beg to differ.
>>3229641
>If this bullet pattern comes, I dodge it like this!
DOOM is my favorite puzzle game.
>>3229641
>Kraut-kun citing a CAVEfag
Hell has frozen over.
>>3229935
Don't be such a tool.
>>3229942
I already knew that shmups are puzzle-like before even reading the interview, fucktard. It's just common sense to understand this when you played the genre a bit.
>>3229370
Of all the popular things to hop on a hate bandwagon for why did this board jump to Treasure? Can't really call myself a fan, I've only played like 3 of their games, but I'm genuinely curious.
>>3229957
4chan hates everything which is relativel popular. When it comes to STGs, people usually hate either Treasure, Cave, or Touhou. All of which are popular.
Board is just full of bandwagon hipsters, which shouldn't get taken seriously.
>>3229945
They're not. Shmups are about shooting them down. Calling a basic thing like pattern recognition a puzzle makes you and Clover-TAC sound like retarded assburger dumbasses.
>>3229972
Shmups are not just about pattern recognition, though. They are about developing the right methods to score the best, which is very puzzle-like.
Sure, for people like you they may not be that puzzle-like, because you just play them casually, but if you actually play shmups for score, they can get complex as fuck, where finding the right strategies becomes really difficult.
why are they called treasure if all their games are shit?
>>3229985
All their games are shit? Explain.
>>3229967
>Don't like something that's popular? You must be a hipster then.
Treasurefag logic.
>>3229997
Not liking something does not mean you must shitpost about it every chance you get.
Your "Treasurefag" boogeyman is getting old. You're no better than any other fanboy, you're also an obnoxious nerd.
>>3230001
>obnoxious
Says the Treasurefa-
>nerd
You sound like a normie. Did you crawl out of Gamefaqs or something? You should go back to whatever hugbox shithole you came from.
Only Megadrive Treasure was good. Every game after that era was full of gimmicky bullshit, or just plain sucked.
>>3230356
>Says the Treasurefa-
There you are with your boogeyman again.
You should get off 4chan for a while man, it's fucking with your mind. Go play some vidya for once or something.
>>3230365
What do you mean "gimmicky bullshit"? Explain.
Als, do you think games liek Light Crusader or Mc Donalds' Treasure Land are better than stuff like Guardian Heroes or Sin and Punishment? Weird.
>>3228586
Not as good as Radiant Silvergun
>>3230493
>Guardian Heroes
The RPG stats and imbalanced characters ruin an otherwise shallow belt scroller.
>Sin & Punishment
Too linear and the controls are a bit clunky. Panzer Dragoon Zwei blows it away.
McDonald's is fine and Light Crusader is alright if you're into action-RPG's.
>>3230573
>controls are a bit clunky
did you play it on the VC using a GC or Wii controller? I also thought it was a bit clunky when I played using a GC controller, then I got the real game and played it with a N64 controller.
Night and day really.
>McDonald's is fine and Light Crusader is alright if you're into action-RPG's.
But you really think those are better than later Treasure games? IMO the masterpieces on Megadrive are GH, AS and DH. Light Crusader and McD are just okay. Yu Yu Hakusho is pretty interesting too but not as good as the first 3 I mentioned. Still I find it weird you'd prefer LC or McD over S&P and GH, but to each their own I guess.
>>3230573
>Panzer Dragoon Zwei blows it away.
Eh.
Both are pretty amazing games.
PD II has alternate routes and the dragon evolution system, S&P has more diverse controls (you can jump, perform melee attacks, reflect projectiles).
Both are great games but you're exaggerating by saying it "blows it away", I prefer S&P myself.
Find a flaw.
>>3230603
>Sony
>>3230603
Collectathon trash.
>>3230609
Better than Poochie the Dog at least
>>3230613
Poochie at least had platforming. You just run around big empty maps picking up gems in Spyro games.
>>3230654
It's literally press forward and the jump button when it's required, no need to calculate your jumps or use momentum, Poochie is like playing Hugo.
>>3230613
And that one is still better than Hipster Flash.
>>3230658
Fuck you, Hugo was better than Poochie but yeah I can see what you mean
>>3230492
I'm in the mood for games that are overrated by normies. Care to recommend any? I've already played Ikaruga.
>>3230674
Try your favorite video game.
>>3230674
Here you go, familia.
>>3230674
doom
>>3230603
>Dream Weavers
>>3230674
Just because it doesn't have your beloved kawaii uguu girls in it, doesn't mean it's a shmup for normies.
The steam leaderboards of Ikaruga are actually pretty competetive for a shmup on steam. Wouldn't really call a "normie game" just because it is more well known than other games of the genre.
>>3230810
Dream Weavers is the most based home-world in the entire game. Every level is 10/10.
Beast Makers is the only sub par home-world; and fuck Misty Bog, that level is hard af.
>>3228594
Stole my thunder 2 days ago.
>>3228586
It's weebshit.
>>3229984
That doesn't make it a puzzle. That could apply to any number of games especially ones with scoring and multipliers. By that logic most light gun games are puzzles. All the enemy positions are predetermined with predetermined paths and pickups, boss movements are readable and predictable if you play the multiple times and understand all of the attacks, and in the case of a game like Time Crisis you can optimize scoring by knowing exactly how many times you are going to shoot a target before moving on to the next.
>>3233420
Yeah, he and all shmupfags are retarded, just ignore people with mental illnesses.
>>3229593
>>3229598
>>3229602
>>3229914
I think this is part of what makes Treasure great. Their games might be divisive even among fans, but everyone seems to have their own favorite.
I'm a big shmup fan but I don't really care for Treasure's efforts in the genre. Give me Bangaioh, Sin and Punishment or one of their Run n' Guns and I'm guaranteed to have a great time.
They just put out a lot of really quirky games that just don't click with some people, but for others it feels like a tailor-made gaming experience.
>>3229984
>Shmups are not just about pattern recognition, though. They are about developing the right methods to score the best, which is very puzzle-like.
You can optimize any videogame. That doesn't make all videogames, including shooters, puzzle games, though.
>Sure, for people like you they may not be that puzzle-like, because you just play them casually, but if you actually play shmups for score, they can get complex as fuck, where finding the right strategies becomes really difficult.
You're just making cop-outs. By saying all shmups are puzzles, you're trying to excuse Ikaruga's puzzle game-inspired chaining system that nobody likes. Ain't gonna work, bud. Also I like how you call others casual when it took you 300+ hours to get a non-shit score in such an easy STG as Ikaruga on normal.
