Why don't more RPGs, retro or not, elaborate on Chrono Trigger's battle format? The idea of menu-baded battles where enemies reposition in real time, and special attacks have AoE properties dependent on that positioning, is a really cool concept that CT didn't fully capitalize and Cross abandoned completely. Are there any other good games that employed this concept, preferably more strongly? (The closest out of anything I've played is Grandia 2 but the game outside of battles is kind of ass.)
Idk, try Live A Live -enemies and characters move at the same time
also, if movement, range and positioning is an important part of the battle system, the game should let you decide where your characters move IMO, it should never be under A.I. control
SRPGs usually implement movement and positioning, but not in real time as far as I know
It's a ship. Towerfags need not apply.
Lunar does this. Combat takes on a sort of puzzle-like aspect where you try to align your timing and positioning in order to do it most efficiently (and then inevitably have to come up with new solutions each time someone levels up and your battle order changes).
Maybe they're trying to adapt new kinds of rpg combat
>>3183642
>the game should let you decide where your characters move
Seconded. This is my only complaint about Trigger.
>>3183608
>Why don't more RPGs, retro or not, elaborate on Chrono Trigger's battle format?
It was called FF13 and stupid idiots everywhere hated it for being exactly what they asked for.
>>3183748
then you'll like parasite eve
>>3183750
I liked it. Unironically. I never understood why people hated it so much. The only really valid complaint was that 90% of the game was a hallway simulator, but I think the story and combat compensated pretty strongly.
>Why don't more RPGs, retro or not, elaborate on Chrono Trigger's battle format?
Why doesn't OP play more games before asking stupid questions?
>is a really cool concept that CT didn't fully capitalize
Except that due to poor planning CT didn't have any of that, in the end it was just a purely visual effect, and for a stupidly simple reason too, they didn't include range on the characters' moveset and didn't bother making good enemy movement AI and formation.
No matter how far an enemy is, X-Slash will always reach them, Magic vastly works on a single/two/all target system, same with special techs, radius spells/techs are a joke that almost never works as it's supposed to when it's on the enemy's side and when it's on the player's side it's effectively an all-target situation 99% of the times. Not to mention again, the poor enemy formations.
If you want something that mostly works like the stuff you described try the SaGa Frontier games, in those the enemy position isn't just eye candy and it also changes depending on the moves you use, if you use a straight line technique the enemy will get pushed back on hit for instance. Some scenarios also make formations a pretty big deal for a few fights, Coon/Riki's quest comes to mind.
If you want something that is actually in real time and not just ATB play Bounty Sword, but that's JP only and it's more like an RTS as the exploration and progression is in stages rather than just an overworld.
Both Live A Live and Treasure Hunter G have a tile based system that works exactly like you want to, but again, it's tile based and not free movement.
Some of the Legend of Heroes/Eiyuu Densetsu games, both modern and retro, work like you want but don't have ATB.
Growlanser games work like you want, but better, since you can even move your PCs around.
If you want non retro, Unlimited: Saga, BoF: Dragon Quarter, Metal Max 2:R, Metal Max 3, Metal Saga, Grand Knights History all have some if not most of the elements you want.
>>3183750
If I remember correctly, you couldn't control the way your characters would move during battle
you couldn't even control two of your characters or program their A.I. the way XII let you with gambits
I just didn't find the battle system all that good
the more I think about it the more I realize that movement, positioning, multiple party members and range just don't mix well with real time battle systems or hybrids like ATB if you want full control over everyone
at least I don't remember a battle system I liked that included all of those elements
>>3183608
Because Active Time Battle System is copyrighted, and without ATB gauges this battle system makes no sense. And this is actually enforced, because Enterbrain actually got some shit where they tried to rip off ATB for one installment of RPG Maker.
Though if we're talking RPG Maker, there is implementation of this battle system for RPG Maker VX Ace, I just never seen anyone use this (I thought about using it in a project, maybe):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9kMZf_gCs4
>>3183608
Panzer Dragoon Saga had a battle system like that, and positioning also affected what moves the enemies did on you, as well as allowing you to his their weak points. Special attacks often had AOE, but I think most of the ones that did were just fullscreen nukes (necessary in some fights to get the best rank).
>>3184003
Underrated post. I just saved it to my phone for when I get around to finding a new rpg to play.
>>3184003
>If you want non retro... Metal Max 2:R, Metal Max 3, Metal Saga...
Wait, what? I have not played MM2R or MM3, but I did play MMR and Metal Saga several times. While I loved those games, I do not recall any positioning elements in effect during any battles beyond basic stuff like a [water enemy] submerges and therefore cannot be hit with standard attacks.
>BoF: Dragon Quarter
My nigga!
>>3183608
>>3185643
Lunar's battles are like that and Grandia's is similar with a bit of a ATB influence.
>>3189171
Child of Light uses ATB as well, but it's closer to a turn-based version of Grandia in execution.
>>3184003
>Except that due to poor planning CT didn't have any of that, in the end it was just a purely visual effect, and for a stupidly simple reason too, they didn't include range on the characters' moveset and didn't bother making good enemy movement AI and formation
Several of the characters' techs are affected by the position of the enemies. Have you even played the game?
>>3183608
get a dreamcast
play Grandia II
its just what u need,but better
>>3184257
What did your point towards FF13 have to do with what he said towards Chrono Trigger? The answer is nothing because your response doesn't pertain to CT either.
Like everything in CT it's just old shit with a new paintjob but no new functionality. Enemy groups aren't exactly a novel thing, and that's all they were in CT. Their position on the map meant jack shit.
>>3189665
position mattered for counters and stuff though
>>3189606
13's battle system is inferior to CT's in every way, and as such is a terrible example on how to elaborate upon CT's battle system
nobody "asked" for 13's battle system as that anon implied
>>3189735
CT battle system isn't even that good and it's hard to even gauge on the entire spectrum of "good" because the game was so piss easy that it didn't matter what you did because you would still win. It was a literal sprint beating that game.
And while I'm not a huge fan of FF13, its battle system was neat in setting up and switching between paradigms because it was actually mandatory to know when to switch to beat certain enemies. Still a piss easy game but at least you had to think sometime while fighting.
TL;DR
CT doesn't have some amazing gameplay/battle mechanics that is some superior form that JRPGs should've carried from there on out.
>>3189770
>CT is too easy waaah
yeah most games are easy once you figure out all the secrets on the second time around.
On your first run CT isn't some total joke of a game where you can mash the attack button to win everything. Just because you never need to grind doesn't mean its way too easy. Sometimes I like grindy JRPGs and other times I don't, nothing inherently wrong with either approach.
>>3189770
>its battle system was neat in setting up and switching between paradigms because it was actually mandatory to know when to switch to beat certain enemies.
even this is a dumbed down version of the job switching mechanic from X-2's battle system
X-2 is actually a better example of a CT influenced battle system, along with Grandia 1 and 2
and job switching doesn't make up for not being able to control two of your characters
>>3189665
>playing FF1
>not going BALS TO THE WALL
I hope that isn't your screenshot
>>3189794
If you could read, I said That since its so easy that it's hard to gauge whether or not the system is even that great. If the system doesn't really have a good amount of strain from the game itself, it's hard to tell how enjoyable it really is.
>>3189806
And that's purely preferential and your stance on not controlling them. I generally play more strategy Focused games so I enjoyed having to plan out switches and making the best combos with movesets. Like CT though the game isn't very challenging outside the postgame stuff so it doesn't shine a whole lot. Basically I'm just saying it's hard to really say something is stellar if it really doesn't matter how you approach it in game.
>>3189770
It was fun, and engaging, and most importantly - IMMERSIVE. I could never, ever in my life visualize jRPG battles. They were too fucking abstract. ">attack >fire 3 >attack >phoenix down" - I felt more like a hacker inputting commands ina terminal than a leader of a fight, especially in Dragon Quest-style first person fights. It felt so absurd to feel anyone taking turns - I can take one level of abstraction with taking turns, but another level of abstraction by having characters just randomly run to each other and then run back? That felt absurd.
In Chrono Trigger, I never felt like that. I could clearly SEE what everyone is doing, and because of sped-up ATB thing, if I wouldn't do anything, enemies WOULD kill me. Fights rarely required much strategy, but the thing where you had to decide whether to have character perform a solo attack, or wait for another character's ATB gauge to fill up and do a combo attack - that was interesting, and this kind of split-second decision making made me feel kinda like a leader of the party (sure, not that these decisions MATTTERED that much outside couple bosses, but who gives a fuck about that anyway if it was fun?)
CT had more immersive combat than any other jRPG I played (the fact that battles happened on the same map you explore, and no random encounters with always visible monsters also helped in that department).
>>3190281
Something I liked about the monsters is like how they just pop in randomly. Like when you're in the Cathedral and the Hench just slides down the rail of the stairs, or when enemies pop out of bushes and shit or just jump in or do generally laughable stuff before combat.
CT to me has a charm that is hard pressed for other RPG's to match, though don't get me wrong there are quite a few who have done it.
Also, all these people bitching about how CT is too easy, try playing it when you're like 13 years old for the first time. It's not so easy then, some of the bosses in that game are actually a bit tough. Also, play it on active with the battle speed kicked all the way up.
>Monsters hit you as you're searching through menus for what you want to do
I mean, Chrono Trigger is pretty okay because you basically only ever use about 4 commands period so you can just mash buttons, but more varied menu-based combat is pretty shit in Active Time.
>>3190328
>4 commands period
Not really but whatever you say boss.
>>3190328
Chrono Trigger is great because it requires you to think fast and form strategies while you're under pressure. It constantly succeeds on avoiding being repetitive like your usual RPG.
Combine this with the real time enemy movement, the vast variation of enemies that require different tactics to defeat, the element weakness system, the freedom to choose your trio of characters, etc., etc., and you have a really immersive combat that offers many possibilities for the players.
>>3183608
Because it sucks ass from a straw.
>>3183608
I think it's because Squeenix patented it, and they don't want to use it in any other of their games.
>>3190328
Wait mode, nigger, besides you can always pause.
>>3189171
Was a code/patch to control Lucia ever made?
>>3190580
>Chrono Trigger is great because it requires you to think fast and form strategies
>attack
>attack
>attack
>U WINNAR
>>3191052
Not really. I could think of tons of bosses off the top of my head where that wouldn't work.
Magus, Masamune, Giga Beast, Queen Zeal, Heckran, Azala/Tyrano and more. Play it in active with the timer kicked to full speed and see how that strategy goes for you.
>>3190625
>wait mode
>git gud fgt
>>3189150
MMR still didn't include proper weapon range mechanics that were introduced later in the series, which began iirc with Metal Saga and was further improved and elaborated in MM3 and the remake of MM2, so each weapon used a different kind of targeting, mortars for instance had a radius AoE on hit, shotguns had a spray AoE similar to flamethrowers and so on.
I might be wrong since it's been a decade or so since I played Metal Saga but I believe they started doing this there.
>>3189581
>Several of the characters' techs are affected by the position of the enemies.
Don't make me laugh, there's so few techs that actually work like that that I might either laugh or cry about your claim.
It's either Single or All target and the few actual radius techs are laughably worthless and situational at best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs3jiU63X4g
>>3189794
>most games are easy once you figure out all the secrets on the second time around.
CT's system is so barebones you should have mastered the system by the time you get to fight Magus, if not earlier, unless you're literally six years old. Acting like it's a system that requires any kind of deep thought or even semblance of effort or strategy is an insult to any adult person without some kind of mental handicap.
It's true that a game doesn't necessarily requires difficulty to be good, but it's also true that saying that a game with little to no learning curve, originality or challenge like CT needs any kind of effort is also ridiculous.
>>3190580
>while you're under pressure
What pressure?
What kind of pressure is there in a game where you can outrun anything in speed calculations and get as much as three times a turn on each character per enemy turn effortlessy and have a much superior toolset in regards to any enemy at any point in the game?
Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually played more than ten games in your life, Chrono Trigger had many good things, but gameplay or difficulty aren't some of those.
>>3191082
CT isn't very hard, but it's not braindead easy. A lot of the lack of difficulty is the lack of required grinding, which is due to good balancing. You have to play on active mode. I know it's cheap, but it makes it more exciting.
I think they could have done more with the AoE techs. If manual character movement was available that could have added in the extra challenge of avoiding enemy attacks. I'm not sure if that would have worked well.
>>3191427
>but it's not braindead easy
The most transcendental thing CT has is counter phases.
>A lot of the lack of difficulty is the lack of required grinding, which is due to good balancing.
No, CT has straight up shit balancing and shit enemy design.
There's no enemy formation or boss that can pose a significant threat to the party, they don't have the stats to do so, they don't have the moveset to do so, they are not designed to do so unless you think that healing before a certain HP threshold and resume spamming your techs is good design that requires deep thought and strategy to solve.
And it's not like the game even has much variety in tools besides classic status effects and elements, it works exactly like any FF game or clone but in this one you can use OP attacks with other party members.
>You have to play on active mode.
Active mode only makes the game slightly less of a chore to play, just like ATB makes enemies attack more often in FF, making it last double the time due to needing to heal more often and watching more animations.
>If manual character movement was available that could have added in the extra challenge of avoiding enemy attacks.
If they added such an option then the game would have needed either a complete overhaul in terms of battle system or nothing would have changed because attacks are scripted to target an actor no matter the position, and by adding PC movement that would have made enemies even more powerless than they already are.
If you want what the CT system should have been you should play Growlanser, while a few games have questionable balance the system is pretty great, 3 and 4 are especially very good.
Hell, Growlanser is basically what CT should have been as a whole sans the time travel.
>>3183645
>Towerfags
Now you're just rusing me. No one is that stupid.
>>3183859
i only stuck with it for the fluidity of the battle system. cannot remember the storyline.
>>3183608
>using this ugly color for the UI instead of the standard grey-ish one
this always triggers me
>>3183750
>FF13
>anything like Chrono Trigger
This is b8
>>3189770
>Look GAIZ I'm a hipster!!!
>FF13 has better combat than Chrono Trigger
>Am I cool yet?
Fuck off
>>3195727
I'm not that guy though.
It's not even hard to see that.
>>3195810
Whatever you say.
Is it that hard to imagine that in the entire world there's more than one guy who doesn't like CT?
>>3195816
Not who you replied to, but there isn't anything wrong with not liking CT. It's just that people who call it worse or not as good as other JRPGs because the battle mechanics that it does have aren't strategic enough.
Chrono Trigger is not a strategy RPG.
Yet people still say that it's objectively worse because it lacks depth in areas that don't even apply to the kind of game Chrono Trigger actually is.
Don't like it? Go play an srpg like Front Mission or another JRPG that is offers a more complex set of mechanics if that's what you're looking for.
Simplicity is not a flaw in this case and doesn't make it any better or worse, just different.
>>3195826
>Chrono Trigger is not a strategy RPG.
What does that even mean?
Are you seriously implying that SRPGs are inherently more difficult or have a deeper design than normal turn based RPGs?
They're not, play Monstania, SFW or SRW, they're even more shallow than Chrono Trigger.
>Yet people still say that it's objectively worse because it lacks depth in areas that don't even apply to the kind of game Chrono Trigger actually is.
Games like Metal Max 2/Returns or SaGa have a much better system and design than CT.
>Go play an srpg like Front Mission
So, Missile and Machinegun central? Front Mission isn't exactly the epithome of deep and well designed SRPGs, with the exception of 2 as far as retro goes.
>Simplicity is not a flaw in this case and doesn't make it any better or worse, just different.
It is a flaw, a game that doesn't require any sort of thought process besides elementary skills required in hundreds of other games ain't going to cut it, might as well make it a book or an anime.
Simplicity isn't necessarily a flaw when the system is well balanced and requires at least a minimum amount of effort, puzzle games are like that, if anything they require to have a simple and straightforward ruleset, RPGs aren't going to be worth much unless you're a very young or inexperienced person, or maybe if you're more interested in other things than gameplay which is your right by all means.
But please, don't say that CT is a good game to people that actually play games for the game part, because it isn't, on any possible point of view. It's a shallow, boring RPGs like hundreds that came before and after it, a few gimmicks like battles with no transitions just aren't enough.
Again, if you're new to the genre CT is probably one of the best options as it's fast, pretty and simple enough to not frustrate you and it does a good job in teaching you the basics, but anything more than that is just pretty graphics and music, which aren't exactly scarce.
>>3189665
>Their position on the map meant jack shit.
I seem to recall some enemies (like acid/base in 2300) that would move towards each other and do their own dual techs if you didn't manage to kill one of them first.
>>3195852
SaGa are not good games. Saying they are better than a very simple game such as CT is not really a good comparison on both ways.
>>3195875
>SaGa are not good games.
Nice argument.
>>3195878
The fact you can learn and stuff randomly in most of them, with at best the hope you can get what you want by playing in a certain way, is so self-demonstrating it doesn't need much elaboration.
>>3195884
Except you don't learn randomly?
In the GB trilogy every Monster has tables for transformations, so if you know what monster has which table you can easily get the form you want, Espers work similarly except they have a wider table of abilities so you'll need a bit more time to get what you want.
After the GB trilogy every single tech has very specific conditions in terms of learning, and the chances of success are so high you can get all learneable techs in a matter of minutes, IF you know how the system works.
SaGa Frontier's higher magic or gun techs work the same way, so if you know how the system works you can get everyting you need effortlessly.
Not to mention that you don't even need to learn the most difficult techs if you know how to play the game.
So what's your point? Are you really telling me that a game that handles you everything on a silver plate has a better design that a game that forces you to actually use our brain and learn a system or use whatever tool you have to its fullest while also giving you better chances for a comeback WHILE you're fighting and giving you even better chances of turning the tide the stronger the enemy is?
I don't know, but if a series that notoriously doesn't rely on anything but game mechanics sells more than two games based on story and graphics, it's easy to tell which game is better.
>>3195884
they're good, their problem is that most of them don't explain shit
they fixed that for Minstrel Song (the best SaGa game IMO) by having an NPC in every town that explained most of the game mechanics to the player
>>3194301
It's a ship, man. The sooner you accept it the better.
>>3196117
Pretty sure he was calling into question the existence of people who thought it was a tower, not the other way around.
>>3183658
Not the original Lunar.
>>3183608
The whole thing was fucking shit because you can't move your characters at all. They're stagnant in their position and as there are forced battles where your characters automatically assume specific positions in those battles, there are many moves you just can't use much of the time. It's a really, really shitty system. That's why it hasn't been much used since.
What i'd like to see is an action RPG wherein spells and skills are done via various button mashes a la Street Fighter II or Sabin's inputs in FFVI. The only games I can think of that do this are Terranigma and Beyond Oasis. Each of those has fewer that five attacks, though. :-(
>>3196192
>What i'd like to see is an action RPG wherein spells and skills are done via various button mashes a la
Xenogears? Legaia? Valkyrie Profile?
>>3196312
Haven't played them, but I was under the impression that they're all normal-ass, menu driven RPGs and not action RPGs. Am I mistaken? I did think of another game, though: SotN.
>>3196329
You're correct, don't play them.
>>3196192
>What i'd like to see is an action RPG wherein spells and skills are done via various button mashes a la Street Fighter II or Sabin's inputs in FFVI.
What you want is a beat em up, not a RPG.
But you can try Princess Crown, most other non retro Vanillaware RPGs like Odin Sphere work like you want, Legend of Mana has a few command inputs too, but not for everything you want, mainly normal attacks and other actions such as jumps or evasion.
Princess Crown also has a surprisingly great port for the PSP if you can't emulate Saturn or you don't have the console.
If you want an inbetweener there's Dark Law, which is a really cool hybrid Action+Turn based RPG, but to use the inputs you want you must learn the respective ability and usually it takes a while to do so.
Another game with a vaguely similar concept that you could like would be Solid Runner, but while the battle system doesn't uses menu it's still turn based, you basically input a battle action by pressing one of the D-Pad buttons and one XYBA button during a turn, the D-Pad inputs the direction of the attack while the other buttons are tied to the weapons of your power armor, and of course the enemy does the same since you attack each other at the same time.
it's a neat little game, a bit short but nice to play for the novelty of the combat system at least.
And of course, the Tales series, Phantasia, Destiny and Eternia might be the thing for you though to input commands like a fighting game you'll need to equip a certain accessory which comes kinda late in the game, nothing you can't hack in if you so desire though.
>>3190308
> try playing it when you're like 13
If you can't breeze through CT your first time at 13 you have brain problems. Maybe for a 6-8 year old it's hard. The toughest part is the adventure aspects like knowing how to get the different endings, not the combat.
>>3195895
Monster tables are another pile of shit not worth the hassle. Kawazu should make a game with Monte Cook, the resulting RPG could be the one that finally kills the entire genre.
>>3196582
>Monster tables are another pile of shit not worth the hassle.
The idea isn't that bad, but it's rare to find a middle ground, you either get too powerful or too weak monster forms, even if the DS remakes fixed a lot of problems, it's a system that should be refined a bit to make it fun to use.
And Kawazu dropped it since Frontier, I don't think he's interested in picking it up again anytime soon.
>Kawazu should make a game with Monte Cook
>mfw
Two absolute madmen like those would probably kill the very concept of roleplaying mechanics in videogames altogether, like, what would you even play after a hypothetical game made by those two?
They'd probably make it so convoluted and meta that you could play the game endlessly, you'd probably need a guide to get beyond the title screen without fucking something up too.
>>3183645
What? People out there think the Black Omen is a tower?
>>3199954
newfag
>>3183645
wait, who says its a tower? You can clearly tell from the shadow it's a ship
>>3191487
>There's no enemy formation or boss that can pose a significant threat to the party, they don't have the stats to do so, they don't have the moveset to do so, they are not designed to do so unless you think that healing before a certain HP threshold and resume spamming your techs is good design that requires deep thought and strategy to solve.
Right.
>>3201170
>Can't fight stronger forms unless you're high level enough
>which means you already are stronger than any form by being at an optimal level already.
>Pink nu gets rekt by simply hasting your party and making one party member a healer
>Significant threat
