When it comes to the NES's soundchip, what do you think about the triangle wave?
For those who aren't aware, basically the NES has 3 channels in its sound hardware that can produce tones: two can produce "bleepy" pulse waves, and the third is a smooth-sounding triangle wave that's usually used for bass. Here's a good example of what it sounds like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyAkIMP3z8Q
I've always wondered why Nintendo chose to include this in the NES's soundchip. On one hand, it makes the NES sound different from other consoles at the time. On the other, dedicating an entire channel to this sound makes little sense, as it's not a versatile sound at all, and the lack of volume control basically forces it to be used for basslines.
Do you think it was a good decision for Nintendo to use this sound instead of something else, like another pulse wave? Also, post examples of good (and bad) uses of the triangle wave in NES music.
it works well for bass, and is going to be more audible through shitty TV speakers than a sine wave
>>3177606
It actually would've been harder to implement a sine wave into the NES at the time.
The NES's triangle wave had a very course amplitude resolution, it looks more like a series of stairs than an actual triangle. That's what gives it those characteristic metallic harmonics as opposed to triangle waves sounds generated by many other synths and such.
I think Kirby's Adventure soundtrack used it very well, instead of being used for bass it was used for harmonies. One of the pulses played the bass instead.
>>3177602
A triangle is a good call for a bass because it has more harmonics than a sine (so as to give it some extra presence) but less than a square and less still than a saw (which would overpower the fundamental and sound tinny, defeating the purpose).
The triangle wave can sound really amazing.
https://youtu.be/aOTPztk0QGE?t=1m20s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTxZchmHmBw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZjZXguqmKM
>>3177610
Hence a triangle wave instead, which is a pretty good substitute to first order.
>>3177602
They probably chose to include it to give you the option of more than just bleeps. It doesn't add much but without it NES sound would just be sad compared to other things at the time.
What's the alternative? A third square channel like the SMS?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5En9Ly8w-ZI
I like when it's used as a flute, as if often is in the Dragon Quest games.
>>3180537
It's good to have a greater variety of waves I think.
Love it
Sine > Triangle > Square > others
4 FM voices > All
http://youtu.be/drwX7MbB_IE
>>3180641
>yfw every sound is sine waves
>>3178468
Joe McAlby is just on another level.
>>3180812
vrc7 is cheating
>>3177602
>>3177618
A triangle wave is just a square wave with some filtering to sound closer to a sine (fundamental is more apparent).
There were better / more feature-rich chips than the 6502 at the time, but for whatever reason, Nintendo picked that one.
Much of what you hear on the NES was also done on the C64 and other computers that used the same series of chip, although some minor differences between them imposed certain limitations, and so you'll hear differences between those games ported to consoles with supposedly similar audio hardware.
For example: the NES's chip had 2 pulse, 1 filtered pulse (triangle), and 1 noise channel; the C64 had 3 universal channels. The NES had pulse LFOs that could be applied to any of the audible pulse oscillators, giving that signature chiptune vibe, while the C64 had more flexible LFOs that allowed creation of convincing vibrato with a sine wave.
Here's a theme that would have benefited from that kind of vibrato on NES (cleverly simulated with ring modulation by the composer, but it's not quite convincing!):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5biIXoKAHo
Another NES theme that the composer obviously wanted to use some vibrato, but couldn't, and didn't even try using the ring mod trick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5mK2SV7Dws
Theme showcasing C64 audio features, making heavy use of vibrato (but you sure can tell the 3-voice limit makes for a much thinner mix):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBLzO6tdfRs
>>3181318
>6502 is a sound chip
>sum shit i red
Thanks for contributing.
>>3182197
In the NES case it is a sound chip.
They cloned the 6502 and added a sound generator to it. Don't know what he's talking about with the C64.
>>3182197
>The Ricoh 2A03 or RP2A03 (NTSC version) / Ricoh 2A07 or RP2A07 (PAL version) is the 8-bit microprocessor in the Nintendo Entertainment System video game console manufactured by Ricoh.
>It contained a second source MOS Technology 6502 core
> It was also used as a sound chip
>>3183195
The C64 also uses a 6502, I guess.
From my research it seems the triangle wave uses a series of 4-bit samples stored in the sound chip itself which it cycles through to get each wave period.
Makes you wonder, why didn't Nintendo include an option to turn the triangle wave into a sawtooth wave by "cutting" the sample in half? It would only require a 1-bit register and would improve the audio capabilities of the 2A03 significantly.
>>3183195
>>3183943
He's talking about the C64 because he read somewhere that the C64 used a 6502 and doesn't know the difference between a CPU and a sound chip. Despite being completely ignorant on the subject he decided to blog about it anyway.
The NES/FC doesn't use a 6502. It uses a custom chip that has has something similar to a 6502 on the die.
The C64 also doesn't use a 6502. It uses a 6510. Again, similar to a 6502 but different. Sound is handled by the SID which is a totally different chip.
>>3184587
It's pretty shameful somebody would mistake the SID for anything else, too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG82RMyS07Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTGkf21UpJ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhidqSOIuLY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ZfxpWwEVw
They did this to save money you idiots
>>3185607
If anything it cost more to implement a triangle than a third pulse channel
Every nes game sounds the same.
>>3187210
No.
I bet you're european, because only a retarded C64 owner could say that.
I bet Konami games and Sunsoft games sure sound EXACTLY the same, and totally don't use different sound engines.
>>3187404
Without samples all Japanese compositions would sound the same.
>>3189019
you're lying if you're telling me that kirby's adventure and mega man sound the same
>>3177602
>what do you think about the triangle wave?
godlike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hULFFtAc8hE
>>3189078
They don't because samples.
>>3189353
Drum samples. Literally the only difference is that Kirby has drum samples.
here's a download of pages devoted to the famicom sound chip
http://pastebin.com/UpNnzxGqpassword: iamerror
>>3189395
well okay then
you're lying to me if you're telling me that kirby's adventure and journey to silius sound the same
>>3189517
It must sound very different from something like an OPZ triangle wave, maybe that particular difference exaggerated?
>>3177602
Not including the triangle wave would be outrageous. Triangle waves sound nice. In fact, it should have had volume control.
>>3189695
Triangle waves are excellent when it makes sense to use them, but it's a very smooth sound that doesn't jive well with the NES's generally more "hard-driven" soundtracks. It would've been much better to make triangle wave generation an option rather than a requirement, like with the C64.
>>3189830
What? The NES's pulse waves could go a good way away from square, low duty cycle pulses sound less harsh, and the triangle wave was a bit jagged, so they can't be that far apart, the NES didn't even have any saw wave.
What would have been better if the NES had an even gentler pulse wave option, instead of redundant 25 and 75 duty cycle pulses, coupled with improved triangle wave flexibility.
>>3189859
I meant the triangle wave isn't always a good fit. Take this track:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWRvR-q4OS8
The triangle really can't deliver the heavy bass sound the composer was going for. A 25% pulse or a sawtooth would be better for this song.
That's why they shouldn't have dedicated an entire channel to that and only that waveform.
WHY DO I LOVE CHIP MUSIC SO MUCH HOLY FUCKING SHIT IT'S SO GOOD
>>3178468
Sounds like C64 music.
>>3190259
Damn, that's an obnoxiously large file, 5th or 6th track here?:
http://www.planetemu.net/rom/nintendo-nes-music/battletoads-1991-rare-21-songs
Sawtooth wasn't in the NES. Sure, it would have probably been much better if the NES did have a saw and a triangle channel, and if the master system had a saw channel, that would have suited it, then maybe a battletoads master system port should have been interesting...
I'm not convinced, I'll have to listen to that track from the genesis version, see if that sounds better, but I haven't come across .gym dumps of ANY genesis battletoadses, which is annoying, cause genesis had a better version of BTDD.
>>3190465
I know the NES didn't have a sawtooth, I'm just saying the song in that video I linked would've been better if that channel was able to produce more than just triangle waves, i.e. a pulse or a saw.
>>3190478
Hey, I did concede to you that that would have fit together on the master system, though the MS didn't even have non-square pulses, but ... VRC6 didn't come around until later, and while the c64 had a saw option, it also had a sine that's been acknowledged as harder to implement.
Seems like I'll have to hold onto the refinable-triangle wave idea, maybe an alternating-triangle pattern, although that sound different - much less harsh that saw and square.
...unless you're talking about applying the "low duty cycle" modifier onto just the upwards or downwards leg of the triangle wave to produce a saw of sorts.
wait, actually, I don't think the square=>pulse adjustment would be due to to produce either of those sounds from a triangle baseline.
>>3190549
Is that a Hantek software USB oscilloscope?
Follin was a triangle wave god desu
>>3192105
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l6nQzPh-iI
Neil Baldwin is the nes god
>>3178468
holy fug that's awesome
>>3180629
this.
if you have too many of the same types of waves, you run the risk of phase cancelling certain notes (ie some notes sound quieter than others) which is particularly bad if you are making a chord
>>3192069
Seems like no, it's "the Soundcard Scope software from Christian Zeitnitz".
>>3192279
This anon gets it.
>>3192279
That's only a concern if you have two channels playing the same note at once. In chiptune circles, if that happens you're supposed to detune one channel slightly and you effectively nullify any phase cancellation.
>>3192221
https://youtu.be/F0PatGtryUo
This song still blows my mind
>>3193082
NIGGA I played this on gameboy many years ago.
>>3184575
I'm guessing that it would just plain sound harsh. Aliased sawtooth waves are ear cancer.
Also, the NES audio expansions had sawtooths.
>>3177606
this
also triangle wave -> SUPER shitty tv analog speakers + filtering = pretty much sine wave
>>3195139
VRC6 had one sawtooth, and 2 pulses, with 8 duty cycle options instead of 4.
>>3177602
The triangle wave is similar to a violin. If you modulate its shape, I believe its similar to a guitar. That's why its on there. Its a basic and important shape. The Sawtooth, aka moog / synth sound doesn't sound as natural.
>>3189402
Is it this?
http://www.academia.edu/15400351/Chiptune_music_An_exploration_of_compositional_techniques_as_found_in_Sunsoft_games_for_the_Nintendo_Entertainment_System_and_Famicom_from_1988-1992
>>3180979
Just brilliant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORO8Ramuu14
>>3180537
a nice sawtooth, or maybe a wavetable channel like the gameboy.
>>3177602
I've composed some Famitracker tunes. As everybody said here, I like how it sounds for emulating a bass guitar.
But in bass solos I like how it sounds complemented with a subtle square wave.
NES missed some volume control for its triangle wave though if you're using triangle wave for lead instruments.
What I wonder is why it took developers so long to squeeze the power of the DPCM channel for making some sick drum sounds, like in Ninja Gaiden 2.
>>3195139
>Aliased sawtooth waves are ear cancer.
4-bit sawtooth waves sound fine. What are you talking about?
>>3195175
The VRC6's sawtooth is actually only 3-bit. No one has ever called that ear cancer.
>>3195181
You seem to think this is FM synth. You can't modulate the shape of the NES's triangle wave at all. The channel can only emit a pure triangle. It may be "important" in a larger sense but it's pretty useless in chiptunes where no modulation or filters are provided.
>>3200895
>What I wonder is why it took developers so long to squeeze the power of the DPCM channel for making some sick drum sounds, like in Ninja Gaiden 2.
It all boils down to cartridge space, and the fact that the computers used to develop NES games were barely more powerful than the NES itself.
