Okay, so this is only half-/vr/-related, but one of the reasons why I have difficulty having fun with Mario Galaxy is because Mario's maneuvers are much less flexible than they are in Mario 64. For example, in Mario 64, the angle you at which you jump off the wall corresponds to the angle at which you jumped towards the wall. In Mario Galaxy, on the other hand, your wall jump always comes off perpendicular to the wall no matter what angle you started from. This, combined with the blander thumbfeel of clinging to and sliding down the wall before jumping off compared to precisely timing your button press to hop off the wall with a satisfying thump and a "Yah!", made wall jumping a lot less fun for me.
A friend of mine disagrees with me -- he says that the wall jump physics are better in Mario Galaxy because they're more forgiving and easier for a newbie to pull off. I think accessibility is great and all, but the thing is that you can easily play through Mario 64 without ever learning the wall jump, but the wall jump is required to progress through many levels in Mario Galaxy. I'm not sure if you need to be able to do it, but it feels a lot more like a carefully restrained piece of the player character's basic toolset rather than the semi-advanced technique that was fun to mess around with and do cool shit with.
I'm inclined to think that Mario Galaxy is just a more linear game in general. Mario 64 just dumps you into the level and lets you explore this (for the time) breathtakingly exciting 3D world, whereas Galaxy charts out a very specific course from planet to planet for you to follow. Mario 64, on the other hand, almost scratched a Super Metroid sequence breaking itch.
What do you guys think? Which wall jump is better?
Trash thread.
it's not just wall jumps, this freedom of movement and physics depth permeates all through the controls in mario 64. it has yet to be surpassed in this regard.
>>3094640
fuck off, retard
I think that making it easier was a mistake, but jumping perpendicular to the wall is correct.
I think the same thing I always do when it comes to Nintendo.
They master something, perfect it in a game, then switch it up in sequels and make it easier.
I think Mario 64 is a masterpiece that doesn't need to be topped.
>>3094671
It doesn't need to be topped, but it's still a shame they decided to water down the system by trying to fix what ain't broke. Again, I see the value to trying to make the technique more accessible, but it still really feels like they lost something.
You know what I think would be really cool?
A Mario parkour game, like Mirror's Edge but with Mario's high jumps, cartoony physics and level design.
>>3094662
>jumping perpendicular to the wall is correct.
What makes you say that?
>>3094525
>whereas Galaxy charts out a very specific course from planet to planet for you to follow
Yeah I agree, this actually put me off getting very far in Galaxy. It always felt on rails.
>>3094525
To add to what you said about the walljump angles, there are also 4 different types of wallkick (that's what they're actually killed) that correspond to the frame you hit A after touching the wall.
a 1st frame wallkick (hitting A on the first frame a wallkick as possible) will make you jump away from the wall at the same speed as you approach it, and send you further away from the wall. this is useful for achieving distance and speed from a wallkick. in this video the player does a first frame wallkick chain beginning from a longjump. the longjump gives him the initial speed and he maintains it through first frame wallkicks. pretty incredible stufff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r_WA2k5fp8
a 2nd frame wallkick gives you more height than a first frame wallkick, so you don't fly away from the wall as fast, but you can use this frame to do a ledge grab in from behind when you fall following a wallkick near a ledge.
a 3rd frame wallkick is similar to a 2nd frame wallkick, except you fall slightly before kicking off the wall, and gain less height.
a 4th frame wallkick is the last possible frame you can kick off a wall before bonking and falling flat. you lose considerable height with this type of wallkick and might not get as high as you need to.
the depth in movement in Super Mario 64 is beautiful and has such a high skill ceiling. the beauty of this game is finding new and creative ways to move mario around. it feels like there is almost no limit to what you can do in the incredible playground environments they give you.
>>3094880
>A Mario parkour game, like Mirror's Edge but with Mario's high jumps, cartoony physics and level design.
that's basically super mario 64.
>>3094914
Still more platforming that parkour. I was thinking of adapting actual parkour techniques and giving a Mario-game-like twist to them. I think the Mario formula has a lot of room for some really cool rulesets with really high skill caps, but these days it seems like Nintendo is afraid of making the gameplay too technical.
>>3094640
Okay TJ """"""Henry""""""" Yoshi
>>3095045
Honestly what you're proposing would make a fun Sonic game if Sonic Team had the mastery over 3D design of Nintendo.
Mario games have always been a more restrained pace despite the engine being capable of much more.
When you slide on your butt down a hill in Mario, it's a satisfying occasion, whereas in Sonic, that's the theme.
>>3095252
Now that I think about it, it would probably be a better thematic fit for Sonic anyway.
>>3094891
>Yeah I agree, this actually put me off getting very far in Galaxy. It always felt on rails.
It's ironic how it's the game themed around SPAACE, constantly doing everything it can to sell you the feeling of exhilaration of flying through SPAAACE, but you actually have much less freedom than you get with the puny earthling Mario 64. It's the planet-to-planet format that actually lets it get away with a very railroaded style of design: each planet has a certain set of challenges for you to complete, and when you've jumped through all those hoops, you get to jump to the next planet. I really wish the stages in Mario Galaxy felt more like a cohesive ecosystem.
>>3094904
I respect and admire your passion about this subject/game, friend.
>>3095963
Thanks man. It's my favorite video game by far and has much more depth than people give it credit for. There's really nothing else like it.
>>3096209
So how about those parallel universe?
Also isn't TJ "Henry" Yoshi the worst?
>>3096513
You don't even have to go as deep as pannenkoek to have do cool stuff with the game. I just like to do some minor sequence breaks.
>>3097574
yeah, all the stuff mentioned in the thread so far is relevant to gameplay on a console in real time. all off pannenkoeks shit is tool assisted using emulators, and usually only possible in that context.
>>3098037
>not building up speed for 12 hours
>>3097574
I was just being silly, don't worry, I love sequence breaking and self imposed challenges and shit like in games. I loved trying it Super Metroid and MetroidFusion, even tried a 1% run but couldn't git gud enough to beat Ridley, or using the bowwow house glitch in Link's Awakening to play the Ballad of the Wind Fish with each instrument individually.
>>3098820
>sequence breaking in Fusion
I tried that. I now know the pain of Sisyphus.
>>3094662
>nullifying the conservation of momentum
>correct
just shut the fuck up
>>3099015
I did it exactly once, on an actual DS, saw the message, and never managed to do it again since.
It felt like my hands were being guided by ESP
>>3099063
The worst part is the fact that the message itself ends with a "Get back to work Samus you lazy moron."
In a Metroid game
In a fucking METROID game
A Metroid game directly responds to your act of sequence breaking with "Good job! Now stop messing around and get back on the rails, bitch."
I tell you guys, as good as Fusion was in some parts, Fusion was the first step down the road that led to Other M. It introduced Adam and showed Samus taking orders from him, it watered down the environmental elements of the atmosphere by fragmenting the game world into boxed-off themed areas, it strictly rationed your power ups and forbade you from skipping any of them, and delivered its story through lengthy cutscenes and WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS.
super mario 64 has more depth in movement tech and freedom than any other video game.
>>3101770
Cheers anon, gonna go give them a watch
>>3101769
i got them from xiah's youtube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClNZewYw4FsmbwfzX11-p3Q
you can find 120 star RTA leaderboards at http://marioruns.com/leaderboards/n64/120
(sorry for the edit)
>>3101772
i recommend watching his single star compilations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gijPGn37uLY
this is all done in real time on an N64 console with an official N64 controller.
>>3101775
These are crazy, but a perfect push to hone my skills, thanks again anon
>>3101782
glad i could help anon. just doing my best to spread the joy of SM64.
>>3104193
Why?
There's all kinds of proof that people can do this. For one, you can clearly see that the footage was recorded from an N64 console using a capture card (the UI blatantly gives it away.) TAS input files are created using emulators, and cannot be synced with N64 consoles because of how inaccurate N64 emulation is in general.
People stream Super Mario 64 speedruns on twitch all the time. There is even a leaderboard at www.marioruns.com. SM64 has the biggest speedrunning community with thousands of people contributing, and every single one of them will vouch for Xiah's legitimacy.
>>3104218
Alright, if you say so...
>>3104193
>I refuse to believe that's real input
imagine being this oblivious.
Man OP feels like me, seriously...I cant get into the newer Mario games, because 64 seems to offer such freedom and flexibility of movement. More so than almost any new games. It made it so immersive when you could find mulitple paths throughout the levels, many of them not even intended by the developers.
>>3104193
thanks for the insight, champ. i'm sure your vast knowledge and experience in SM64 speedrunning lead you to this totally non-kneejerk conclusion.
>>3104240
>>3104253
That's just TJ """""Henry"""""" Yoshi. Don't listen to him.
So i guess i'm not alone into thinking mario 64 is amazing and still plays well.
Seriously nintendo could have rehashed mario 64 to hell and it would have sold a lot of copies, maybe make the camera better and add some power ups but the gameplay is perfect on that game.
>>3104447
just described galaxy 2
>>3104449
>just described galaxy 2
said the retard
>>3104454
I was jokes. but yeah it's literally a numbered sequel
I feel like this game is starting to get old for me, but I know that's because there is a whole lot of depth to it that is lost on me right now.
Can you guys give me any recommendations as to how I can dig deeper?
All these posts calling the game so deep and complex with "great maneuverability" and all I can think is how the predefined paths are usually the easiest and funniest ways of reaching the goal, can't really think of alternative routes that aren't glitches or oversights (like when my dad played for 5 minutes and discovered you could run up the slope to get partway to the top of Bom-omb Battlefield instead of circling around).
>>3106192
they're not really oversights. nintendo created an obvious route for players to take, but left the door open for player skill and creativity by making Mario's moveset so deep and versatile. they wanted players to figure things out that they never thought of. player movement and exploration in large, open ended 3d environments was a major development goal for this game.
a side effect of the moveset being so complex is that retards had trouble with the controls, so they gave subsequent games baby movement because that meant more retards could play, and there's big money in retards.
the guy playing in those wbms streams on twitch sometimes. his name is xiah. he is streaming right now.
twitch tv xiah_7s
>>3106542
Or maybe after complaints about Super Mario Sunshine's levels being too big and open, and praise for those small secret levels that nothing more than linear tests of platforming skill more akin to the original Mario games they decided to listen to the complaints and make a game that consisted solely of these, but then just like with people complaining about Zelda being too cartoony then too realistic then too cartoony it's impossible to satisfy everyone.
All that said, and I don't intend this to go any further than this question, but are there people who speedrun Sunshine with the skill and intensity of 64?
>>3108459
>are there people who speedrun Sunshine with the skill and intensity of 64?
there are people who speedrun Sunshine, but it has a lower skill ceiling and a smaller skill gap between bad players and good players. the movement is just easier to do well, there aren't as many mechanics to master and it doesn't require as much frame perfect precision. that said, it's still pretty impressive at top levels and definitely has a non-trivial skill ceiling of its own.
galaxy speedruns, on the other hand, are basically let's plays that follow a route, with some easy sequence breaks here and there.
3D Land is a special kind of hell.
>>3104218
Actually, the guys from TASvideos claim that some Mario64 TASes have been tested on a real console.
>>3113426
which ones? it would have to be in an area that has 0 lag frames, which i don't even think exists.
>>3113432
either way, those webms are clearly an actual runner. a TAS of TTM reds would not translate to console, for example. he's doing ILs instead of full game runs so he's using less consistent strats for the sake of going faster. these probably took hundreds/thousands of attempts, and that's not even including xiah's 3+ years and multiple thousands of hours of experience practicing and running the game.
you can even see where he makes mistakes if you know anything about how this game is optimized. every sm64 speedrunner can watch these and see that they are real, it's kind of baffling that people are doubting it. xiah has been around forever and is one of the best runners in the world.
here's an example of an actual TAS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL6VE_5PddM
>>3106542
You're thinking way too much into this.
>>3104218
>TAS input files are created using emulators, and cannot be synced with N64 consoles because of how inaccurate N64 emulation is in general.
>>3113432
>which ones? it would have to be in an area that has 0 lag frames, which i don't even think exists.
Console Verified TAS Movies, which are TAS speedruns created on emulators and played on real consoles, are a thing since years by now.
http://tasvideos.org/ConsoleVerifiedMovies.html
If you scroll down you'l find a few about SM64, which are 70 stars, 0 stars, and even 120 stars runs, so no, it wouldnt "have to be in an area that has 0 lag frames", it's the entire game.
Example
0 stars TAS on real console
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsnbYaCGwHk
120 Stars TAS on real console
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHVZGQIGu4w
>>3109672
I love this game
>>3113601
Cool. I thought it wouldn't be possible because emulators are clocked much faster than the real thing.
>>3113625
>emulators are clocked much faster than the real thing.
Can't tell if serious or baiting.
>>3113642
Not baiting, emulators lag less than real hardware. It's kind of a ZSNES thing, you can tell by playing the intro to Banjo Kazooie or Goldeneye that the music goes completely out of sync with the action.
>>3113601
fair enough. xiah is still a legitimate speedrunner, and isn't the only runner capable of strats like this.
>>3113642
loading times and lag are emulated inaccurately on n64 emulators. i figured this would cause desync when attempting to run an emulator created input file on a console. apparently i was wrong.
