Retro ARPG
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You are currently reading a thread in /vr/ - Retro Games
You are currently reading a thread in /vr/ - Retro Games
What are your favorite ARPGs?
Were Secret of Mana and Zelda games the best of this genre?
>>3091819
>Zelda games
There was only one Zelda ARPG, Zelda II.
>>3091825
yah this
those are adventure games op
Zelda is more of a puzzle adventure game. Combat is sort of minor compared to the puzzle aspect, and in fact the way you defeat enemies (bosses especially) is more about figuring out the correct method of dealing damage. So I think calling it an RPG is a bit of a misnomer.
>>3091856
np bb
for the record, zelda links awakening is one of my all time favourite games and one of my most cherished gaming memories
>>3091826
>>3091827
Just calling it adventure does it a disservice. Adventure games are games like Myst and SoMI, slow-paced games that focus on slowly observing the environment, clicking on suspicious pixels, using the right items on the right objects and figuring out convoluted solutions to weird mechanations. Zelda games, especially the 2D ones, are much simpler, faster paced games that involve an equal focus on combat, navigation, secret finding, puzzle solving, powering up your health and damage output and broadening your combat and puzzle-solving utility. They borrow as much from adventure games as they do from dungeon crawlers, which is why there's always this huge debate about whether they're action-rpgs or action-adventures. Just calling them Zeldalikes seems to be a much better naming convention really.
>>3091869
Same, I've played through it many times as a kid, it's probably my favorite Zelda game along Majora's Mask.
I finished Seasons recently and quite liked it. Gonna start Ages soon, I'm quite excited. After I'm done with that one I think I'll replay Link's Awakening but DX this time (never touched that version, curious about how it feels with colors). From what I've seen from screenshots though I think I'll still prefer the original black & white look.
>>3091875
>Just calling them Zeldalikes seems to be a much better naming convention really.
That's what I usually do, I wish there was a better term though.
Were there any similar games to Zelda back in the days? The only game I can think of is Survival Kids, kinda.
Is Ax Battler ARPG?
I really recommend soul blazer, illusion of gaia, and terranigma. All fantastic games. Brainlord and crusader of centy are also very good.
>>3091886
>Were there any similar games to Zelda back in the days?
A lot of them actually. Just off the top of my head, Crystalis, Star Tropics, Golden Axe Warrior, Landstalker, Alundra and Final Fantasy Adventure all heavily borrowed elements from it. There's also games like Soul Blazer which, while being mostly inspired by Gauntlet, end up playing similar to Zelda too.
Faxanadu (Dragon Slayer series et all)
Ys (IV is personal fave)
King's Field / Shadow Tower /Souls
>>3091819
>What are your favorite ARPGs?AHHH FRESH MEAT
>>3091894
please tell me that's not a dude
Zelda is Action-Adventure.
It would be Action-RPG if it had visible and manageable stats system.
Zelda: Action-Adventure.
SoM: Action-RPG.
I know this is likely a bait thread though because the Alundra thread in which we talked about this just died off.
And Alundra is the best.
gastlevania symbony of the nide :D
>>3091956
It holds up very well in my opinion. The translation is pretty weird but kinda charming in a way.
>>3091819
>>3091819
>You found your dick!
been playing this lately on my wonderswan. would definitely recommend it, gameplay is solid and the japanese native american thing going on is amusingly misguided.
Crystalis
Seiken Densetsu 3
Terranigma
Popful Mail
Dark Savior
Xanadu
>>3091886
>Were there any similar games to Zelda back in the days?
Neutopia
>>3091819
Seiken Densetsu aka Final Fantasy Adventure aka Mystic Quest
Is great.
>>3091886
>>Just calling them Zeldalikes seems to be a much better naming convention really.
>That's what I usually do, I wish there was a better term though.
Action adventure is the term you're looking for
>>3092213
>Neutopia
Thank you, I've been looking for this game's name for a while.
>>3091875
>Just calling them Zeldalikes seems to be a much better naming convention really.
no one cares what you think. they've always been action-adventures.
Fuckerrrrrrrrrrrr
>>3092342
this game is great
but I was a little disappointed when I finally played it and found out that combat is entirely computer controlled and relies completely on the player having found all the life-ups in the area
>>3092036
Yeah, it's a great game the translation really drags it down.
>>3091819
Secret of Mana 3 player with the Hudson 4 score is god tier. Single player Secret of Mana isn't very good though. I wish I had more friends just because of this.
>>3092368
OP here. You can play SoM 2 (Seiken Densetsu 3) with people over internet with an emulator without any problems. Make a thread on VR about it, perhaps you could find serious people willing to do a playthrough with you. I don't know about SoM 1 but I assume it'd work too.
>>3092469
Not an emulator person, thank-you though,
>>3091969
Seems like everyone on /vr/ is up on King's Field so how many have this oddity or some of the other From Software games?
>>3092005
>It would be Action-RPG if it had visible and manageable stats system.
Always have Zelda II
>>3092549
I remember playing that and I got stunlocked by two enemies that did so little damage I had to restart the game.
Let's just assume OP was talking about both action-adventure and ARPG since they're almost the same thing anyway.
Also where should I start with the Dragon Slayer series?
>>3092569
ha yeah it could have used some more polish but it was certainly a different note than a lot of other game around that time and was pretty challenging.
>>3092213
was that fan made neutopia 3 ever released?
>>3092549
Of the launchish RPGs for PS2 this one was middlish for me
Eternal Ring > Evergrace = Summoner > Orphen
I liked how every single piece your equipment all changed your character model
>>3092593
Xanadu, probably either as Revival Xanadu or the MSX1 cartridge version.
I can't find Dragon Slayer or Romancia enjoyable.
>tfw you get lost in the beginning of links awakening and never finished it
I suck
![sorcerian-f[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/HpXXGCu.jpg "sorcerian-f[1].jpg")
Falcombros: Am I dumb for wanting to play this?
>>3091825
No, every Zelda is an action RPG.
>>3092005
According to whom, faggot? The genre the developers gave them is action RPG.
>All these replies, no Beyond or Legend of Oasis
Sad these games are so overlooked. OP, I think these are actually two of the best retro ARPGs there are. Though they are closer to Zelda puzzle-action-adventure than the Mana games.
I think they're excellent though. They control like a cross between Zelda and a beat em up, it's really fun. There are multiple weapons, and you collect elemental spirits and use them to solve puzzles. Great bosses, amazing graphics for the systems. I highly recommend them.
>>3092880
According to the facts-based, around gameplay mechanics, science of video game genre defining which the majority of people use.
There IS a small part of opinion in the science of genre defining, but only on the edges, on small details, and difficulty exceptions. Everything else is based on fact.
Fact : The "RPG" video game genre is defined by gameplay mechanics based on visible and manageable stats sytem.
Fact: Zelda (minus Zelda II) has none of those.
So tell me, what RPG gameplay mechanics do Zelda game have?
>>3092021
I'm sorry I was having a hard time believing that so many people would fail at video game genre defining on this board.
>>3093239
>visible and manageable stats sytem
fuck off. shitheads like you are responsible for the rpg genre being spreadsheet novels
>>3093239
>[citation needed]
RPG stands for "role playing game", not stat management game, although true RPG gameplay has never completely been realized on a computer. Thus stats become the focus of many games. But not all.
Is Secret of Mana an RPG? Is Terranigma an RPG?
I still wince when I think of Zelda being called an RPG, but I really don't have a good argument against it considering I think the previous examples are RPGs. I think it's more action adventure.
>>3093251
>>3093256
Video Game genres are not tabletop genres, or cinema genres, or genres in literature etc
Cinema genres are based on themes (horror, love, etc)
Video game genres are based on gameplay mechanics.
You can't apply tabletop genre rules to video games. In a tabletop game it might be as simple as "you play the role of something", but if you applied that to video games it would mean that every game ever where you take control of a character would be a RPG, so Mario would be, Resident Evil would be, etc
Video game RPGs are defined by the gameplay mechanics, for instance that of the games that created the genre and made it widespread, like Dragon Quest.
>>3093263
I took offense to the "visible" and "managable" aspects. As for Mario or RE being role playing, a key aspect that's regularly dismissed by shitheads like you, and that instantly exposes a large share of "RPG"s as frauds, is that the role is player defined and player shaped. Playing an existing character is not RP. Being able to name an existing character does not make it RP.
>>3093263
>>3093239
Stats aren't the sole defining aspect of RPGs, that would apply to various strategy and tactic games as well, which is also where the roots of the genre lie.
What set RPGs apart was controlling only a small band of units in asymmetric campaigns with a DM controlling hordes of monsters not simply to defeat the party but to challenge and guide them.
Action adventure and adventure are a bit confusing since both are named after a game Adventure, one on the Atari VCS and one on mainframe computers.
>>3093263
Table top game and video games are both types of games, and thus defined by their mechanics. The media are different, and that imposes constraints on what is realizable, but genres can span both video and table games.
Admittedly, most console RPGs have very little to do with their table top brethren in terms of how players can influence stories, however the mechanics of JRPGs and APRGs do use stats in an imitative way and try to convey a story.
However you should not confuse stat management with RPGs.
For instance, NetHack (a type of no-save RPG known as a rougelike) has very little to do with stat management beyond keeping your HP above 0, and is far closer to D&D than any JPRG.
>>3093281
why is the shop owner talking to dairy products? Why is the player a dairy product? Are there playable dairy products in D&D?
>>3093284
>Are there playable dairy products in D&D?
If the DM allows it. That's why D&D is unparalleled. Your wisdom would suck and your charisma would go down rapidly after a few days tho.
>>3093297
>your charisma would go down rapidly after a few days tho
not if you're going for a cheese type
You're simply the best
Better than all the rest
Better than anyone
Anyone I've ever met
>>3091875
... Except Zelda is strongly inspired by Atari 2600 classic called, fucking brace for it, Adventure! Which was an attempt at translating early adventure games like Advent (aka Colossal Cave Adventure) into a graphical videogame (before graphical adventure games were a thing).
Like, Gameplay in Zelda is a series of inventory puzzles, if you like it or not. Room is dark? Come back later with a candle! You can't get to the other side? Come back later with a hookshot! Rock is blocking the path? Come back later with a hammer!
>>3093256
>Secret of Mana and Terranigma are just like Zelda (no XPs, no stats)
>>3093271
>RPGs without branching story lines/multiple endings are not RPGs
>>3093279
>SRPGs are not RPGs
>>3093281
>Nethack has very little to do with stat management
>>3091886
Startropics is strongly inspired by Zelda.
>>3093401
>SRPGs are not RPGs
It depends on the scale. A lot of people wouldn't count HoMM as RPG.
Things like sports managing games are also often excluded.
>>3093401
>>RPGs without branching story lines/multiple endings are not RPGs
That's all you take from it? I did not mention story for a reason. Must be too complicated for your little black and white world
>>3093415
What I take from it is that you want there to be a subjective definition of what an RPG is - probably largely to do with fantasy setting even though you'll never admit it. You're working on making a claim like "being able to change equipment makes Zelda an RPG" or "Link grows stronger/tougher over time" but then you're back to practically every game being an RPG.
When it comes to video games, the defining characteristic of an RPG is XPs and visible, manageable stats. That's all there is to it. Please just start a Zelda general and stop trying to turn every ARPG thread into a Zelda thread. Zelda is not what people who start these threads want to discuss. They already know about Zelda. Everyone already knows about Zelda.
>>3093435
>you want there to be a subjective definition of what an RPG is
>the defining characteristic of an RPG is XPs and visible, manageable stats
Talk about projection
>Please just start a Zelda general and stop trying to turn every ARPG thread into a Zelda thread
You're confusing me for someone else. The rest of your strawmen are all in your head, so you're on your own with that one, buddy
>>3093435
Thank god someone who doesn't fail at genre defining.
>>3091875
That's why Zelda isn't "adventure" but "action adventure", it's a subgenre hybrid of two genres, adventure and action.
The common point between Zelda and Myst is the exploration and puzzles. That's the "adventure" gameplay mechanics.
>>3093435
I don't think stats really need to be visible. Something like Madou Monogatari works without a stat page.
>>3093451
The problem is that every game works around stats one way or another. In Mario some enemies have hit points, and the fireballs takes X hit points, etc They're just not visible.
>>3091974
speaking of weird genre naming conventions in this thread, how is Diablo a hack-and-slash when musou and "cuhrayzee" games are hack-and-slash?
>>3093457
But they're set in stone. Fireballs won't change depending on your character development, things like that solely depend on item pickups.
You could have a health bar for enemies and a lot of games do but that doesn't make them RPGs. Meanwhile a lot of RPGs don't show you the health of your foes.
>>3093460
Because Musou and "cuhrayzee" games were called "Slashers" before game journos went into retard mode (somewhere around 2003) and started mixing up the terminology. Nowadays anything where player chops stuff with sword is called hack-and-slash regardless whether it is a platformer, action or RPG.
>>3093467
I guess that makes sense. Regardless, I feel Diablo is less a hack-and-slash than, say, Dynasty Warriors, in part because you can be a magic-user in Diablo, but also because hacking and slashing is less the focus than dungeon crawling. Yet Diablo isn't a dungeon-crawler because it doesn't look like Wizardry.
video game genre names are so ridiculous
>>3093471
Dungeon crawling doesn't imply first person, just that you spend most of the time crawling in dungeons.
>>3093471
Hack'n'Slash has nothing to do with swords or magic, it means that game is sort-of-an-rpg but the "role" opportunities are limited to stat-management. Ability to manage stats is what differentiates Hack'n'Slash from Action Adventure - in Adventure the Character is given, and his development are not fully in Player's control, so all players end up with roughly same character in the end.
Initially "Hack'n'Slash" is a tabletop RPG terminology, meaning "campaign without much plot or branching paths but very heavy on the action side". Fits Diablo perfectly, but not much for Musou series. If you look at NeverWinter Nights modding community, which is closest you can get to a tabletop DnD RPG on a PC without having a multiplayer DM experience (I think something like that is coming out soon, dont remember name though), you can see that there are distinct subgenre of "hacknslash modules".
Musou is much closer to beat-em-ups than anything, but due to being "third person action with combos" it draws closer to Slashers.
Perfect examples of Slasher games from PC: Drakan, Die By The Sword, Rune, Enclave, Severance - Blade of Darkness.
Zelda and Secret of Mana are action adventure, because character development is out of player's control in any way unless you count secrets with hp/mp increasing bonuses.
>>3093506
>stat-management
>character development is out of player's control
false dichotomy
>>3093276
>Beyond Oasis was too ambitious for its clunky controls.
What are you talking about? Beyond Oasis' strength is it's awesome controls. It's not clunky in any way.
>>3093506
>>3093528
I'm not reading this whole debate, I've seen long winded ones about it here before. But the person saying Zelda is an action adventure game, not an RPG is correct. However Secret of Mana is an action RPG because of it's experience system.
The purpose of genre names is to distinguish games, that's really it. Zelda and SoM look similar on the surface, but are actually very different kinds of games and that's why they're in different genres.
One isn't better than the other, but the distinction is important.
>>3093572
>But the person saying Zelda is an action adventure game, not an RPG is correct
That's not disputed. And that's the thing. That anon says it's only manual stat management and visible stats, or Zelda; and that's a bullshit position
>>3093528
Stat management is one of the types of control player can have over character.
Zelda and Mana only have incremental changes to the stats via bonuses/powerups. Player does not have to chose between stats or otherwise manage them in a way other than finding a secret with a bonus. I dont see any false dichotomy here.
>>3093579
>That anon says it's only manual stat management and visible stats, or Zelda; and that's a bullshit position
Lol that is some real bullshit logic. That's partly why I didn't bother reading the whole thing. People will argue really dumb points into the ground here just for the sake of it.
Some people don't understand the difference between RPGs evolving out of tabletop PnP games and then simply being recreations of PnP games. It's sad.
>>3093583
>Stat management is one of the types of control player can have over character.
incidently, the least creative and worst for video game role playing
>I dont see any false dichotomy here.
That's sad. Then again, I didn't expect any better from you. Spreadsheet minmaxers are too hung up on their numbers to understand role playing
>>3093583
>Stat management is one of the types of control player can have over character.
It's not a defining characteristic of what makes an RPG though.
>>3093586
>>3093590
>>3093591
>It's not a defining characteristic of what makes an RPG though.
Ability to manage your character development is. Stats are most visible and apparent so they are considered to be the staple, but having them (or not having them) does not automatically make something an RPG/notRPG, I know that. There can be other choices player can make that affect character or environment in significant way, but rarely any game implements them.
If player has no choice in anything, and just watches the story unfold without ability to alter the way character does things, then it can not be an RPG, which is why I do not consider many jRPGs to be RPGs at all.
>>3093605
>Ability to manage your character development is
Not necessarily through a stat page
>Stats are most visible and apparent
on boring systems, yes
>If player has no choice in anything
There's that false dichotomy again. It's only a stats page or nothing with you
>>3093451
>>3093463
I agree. I think character's progression is that what's important. If it's controllable by player, and affects gameplay more than player's skill (e.g. skilled player with weak character will have more troubles than bad player with a strong character), then it's an RPG. Zelda technically fits, but it mostly only allows player to limit progression by not bothering with upgrades and has focus on different things, it wouldn't change much if all upgrades were set in stone. On the other hand, something like Wonder Boy which also doesn't have visible stats lets player control mobility, health and strength progression and is focused on it as player's choice of upgrades affects game significantly (at least in Monsterland, later games are closer to action-adventures). Personally I think that line between ARPG (especially the simplistic ones) and action-adventures is very blurred and doesn't deserve much debate.
>>3093609
Never said about "stats or nothing"
I said that Zelda and Mana have nothing.
Alright, define what makes an RPG then.
Also give me an example of how you can influence anything in Zelda or Mana?
>>3093616
>Also give me an example of how you can influence anything in Zelda or Mana?
I never claimed they're RPGs, you're confusing me with someone else
>>3093620
Then why the hell did you start pulling a strawman on my argument?
>>3093616
>Alright, define what makes an RPG then.
The ability to define and shape a character including their traits and abilities, which have an impact on the interaction of that character with the game world. In particular, no requirement to have numeric stats, visible stats, or stats that can be directly manipulated
>>3091895
I liked Terranigma but I thought it was a bit overrated. Fights get a little boring later on.
Also afterrestoring the humansbecomes a bit meh. Still the plot twist on the ending parts is one of my favorites in gaming history.
>>3093626
>The ability to define and shape a character including their traits and abilities, which have an impact on the interaction of that character with the game world.
Then Final Fantasy IV is not a RPG.
>>3093626
you clearly have reading comprehension problems, because the fact that stats are NOT NECESSARY was the fucking point of my posts.
>>3093629
Here's the strawman again.
You put in my mouth words I had never said then attack me for them.
My first post here is >>3093506
And the only thing that can be considered "about stats" there is how "hack'n'slash is a subgenre where stats are all you have". An RPG where all your control is stats, and the game puts combat before anything else is a Hack'n'Slash by definition - that's it.
second post: >>3093583
Again, I say that stats are "one of the ways", when you (or someone like you) first pulled this strawman on me.
third post is: >>3093605
>>3093651
Exactly why I consider that FF and most other "jRPG" are considered RPG by proxy just because they have stats. Stats dont make an RPG.
>>3093656
>Exactly why I consider that FF and most other "jRPG" are considered RPG by proxy just because they have stats. Stats dont make an RPG.
This is highly than ridiculous. You are saying that FFIV, a main pillar and bestselling of the RPG video game genre, which greatly made the genre evolve in its storytelling and helped make it more mainstream, does NOT belong to that genre?!
This is just as ridiculous as people claiming Resident Evil isn't survival horror even though it created the name of the genre.
I think the problem is that you are too closed-o, into the definition of the genre by tabletop games standards. You can't apply tabletop genre defining rules to video games, because like I mentioned before video games genres is completely different.
As far as video games are concerned, stats make RPG. In the "pyramid" of genre RPG are a sub genre of "adventure". No stats? You're most likely playing an adventure or action adventure game.
>>3093656
>you clearly have reading comprehension problems
You clearly are an asshole. Rest of your post was fine, so why fuck it up with that pointless insult?
>>3093663
>You are saying that FFIV, (...) does NOT belong to that genre?!
Smart chap
>made the genre evolve in its storytelling
aka, fucked up the RPG aspect
>As far as video games are concerned, stats make RPG
yeah, no
>This is just as ridiculous as people claiming Resident Evil isn't survival horror even though it created the name of the genre.
No, it's more like calling out a game that fucked up the concept of a genre so thoroughly, we're still suffering from it
>>3093663
FF made /other games/ evolve in storytelling department, because it was successful, and the story was all it had going for it. It would've made the same bang if it was a platformer or a point-n-click adventure if it had same story,characters and used same plot devices.
>>3093605
>Ability to manage your character development is.
Not in many, many games defined as RPGs. Sorry, you're simply wrong.
>>3093667
>No, it's more like calling out a game that fucked up the concept of a genre so thoroughly, we're still suffering from it
Not him, but now you're being a complete idiot, You're projecting your ideals of what you think an RPG should be instead of the reality of what the genre actually is.
>>3093679
the reality is that the genre's fucked, indeed. Hence my post in >>3093251
The problem is retards that not only think this fucked up state is normal, but actively propagate it as something good or desirable. There are a few good RPGs out there DESPITE these spreadsheet retards. We need more people to recognize just how broken the genre is, or nothing will get fixed.
>>3093672
It's because people who define Warriors series and DMC as "Hack'n'slash" aslo decided that unrelated games should be called "rpgs" because they have stats (unmanageable), inventory and plot.
>>3093681
>the reality is that the genre's fucked, indeed.
Whether you like them or not is irrelevant. That's not why genre distinctions exist. I hate FFIV, but tons of people love that type of game. There's nothing wrong with you not enjoying every genre.
>>3093734
What makes FF IV an RPG?
"People say it's and RPG so it must be so!" does not count.
>>3093757
Each character has a roll, so it's a roll playan gaem.
>>3093757
It's an adventure game with gameplay based on a stats system, which is visible and upgradeable.
Which is pretty much the definition of video game RPG. Though it's nothing we haven't said already ITT.
>>3093760
In many other games lik Lost Vikings or Gobliins series each character has a role too, as well as unique abilities. Lost Vikings and Gobliins aren't RPGs though. One is a puzzle platformer, another is a point'n'click adventure.
>>3093765
Stats and upgrades do not make an RPG. Look at the loooong discussion above. Ability to affect their development in a meaningful way however strikes a bare minimum requirement. FF games do not pass that requirement. No matter what you do in this game, same character at the same level gonna have same stats no matter the playthrough.
For instance in Tales of Eternia there is a character ability progression that is based on which attacks and skills character used the most, which results in various different setups your character can have in the end of the game, so it strikes the bare minimum.
>>3093781
On a side note, FF7 with it's materia system kinda a little wee bit fit the criteria
>>3093781
Not everything is so black and white, especially in genre defining. "Your" definition only concerns a side of the genre.
I don't even think the games that created the genre in video games would be considered RPG by "your" definition. Surely you don't need me to realize how incoherent that is.
>>3093837
>the games that created the genre in video games
which?
>>3093781
>Stats and upgrades do not make an RPG. Look at the loooong discussion above.
I don't need to look at any loooong discussion. FF games are RPGs. If you're saying they're not you're wrong and your deffinition of what makes something an RPG is inaccurate.
Don't try to re-define established genres, it makes you look like a stupid kid who doesn't know what he's talking about.
>>3093765
>It's an adventure game with gameplay based on a stats system, which is visible and upgradeable.
>Which is pretty much the definition of video game RPG.
And now we're back to square one again, since Zelda games have visible and upgradable health, armor, weapons and ammo capacity, a lot of it optional even, that make up its core gameplay, yet they're adventure games. Either come up with a better definition than that or get >>/out/.
>>3094247
>upgradable health, armor, weapons and ammo capacity
notice how only one of them is an aspect of the character? and not even a character trait?
>>3094247
>Either come up with a better definition than that or get >>/out/.
These are long established genres, if you don't understand them it's not our problem. But trying to change the definitions is idiotic.
>>3094231
That's the entire point. There are still debates here and there about whether or not FF is worthy of being called an RPG, and it was a very hot topic back in the 90's and early 2000's (especially when IX came out and butchered whatever miniscule ammounts of RPG there were in VII and VIII). Half of them concluded that no, theyare not but are still called "RPG" for the sake of convenience. Other half became modern journalists who do not know the difference.
>>3094231
Also RPG genre in videogames was established by Wizardry, Ultima, Rouge and Akalabeth a good 6 years before Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy came to be.
>>3094253
>These are long established genres
Based on shallow appearances like numerical stats. You can literally give Zelda an xp bar and suddenly it ticks off all the boxes on the "long established" action rpg.
>>3094298
RPG video games were established by various attempts to implement DnD on computers.
Ultima and Wizardry were just role models for the rest of the genre.
ITT: Zelda is an RPG but Final Fantasy isn't
Does Ultima 8 count as an Action RPG? You have a stat for combat that rises as you use it but it rises so fast that it's maximized after a few encounters and therefore flat for most of the game.
>people still argue over genre definitions
i can't believe that we are still at this low level of discourse.
some hobby, eh?
>>3094410
>i can't believe that we are still at this low level of discourse.
the definitions affect the thought patterns of designers and players. Pretty important stuff
>some hobby, eh?
Yeah, it's quite complex and very unusual from passive/non-interactive media, which makes it so complicated, but also rewarding
>>3094429
>the definitions affect the thought patterns of designers and players. Pretty important stuff
oooooh, yes. video games aka children's toys. pretty important stuff. aka get some self awareness you fucking autistic idiot.
>>3094304
It doesn't matter what established them. These were the genres the games were made and marketed under. You're trying to re-write history becuase it doesn't suit you.
>You can literally give Zelda an xp bar and suddenly it ticks off all the boxes on the "long established" action rpg.
Yes. XP gain from enemies would fundamentally change the game and with that, it's genre.
christ. we all know what OP is talking about.
This board is more about getting your lady balls twisted over perfect genre definitions than talking about actual games
>>3094440
>>It has the fast action you'd expect from an arcade hit, along with all the depth and advanced role playing of personal computer games. The best of both worlds
>>3091819
First of all, they're not retro.
All of these games were cutting-edge at the time of release.
Second of all, there were tons of Action RPGs, they just didn't get any coverage because of the Lugenpresse.
Dungeon Explorer TG-16 for example. Wicked Action RPG.
>>3094456
Clearly it says roll playing. So called because you roll dice, which doesn't happen in Zelda.
In fact, this entire board doesn't contain ANY "retro" games. It's all actual games that were cutting-edge upon release.
"Retro" means made shitty on purpose.
Even then, it's a terrible designation.
Why not call them Hardcore 2D? That's what they are...
>>3094473
>Hardcore 2D
right
>>3094471
>make faulty claim
>proceed to make a completely different argument in hopes nobody would notice
>>3094482
At least post a 3D action RPG.
I wouldn't consider it hardcore either.
>>3094491
fair enough. The post was about /vr/ in general, so I just grabbed the first shot I had lying around. Yours is more useful though, I'll give you that.
>>3094429
>the definitions affect the thought patterns of designers and players.
Designers don't matter since this is a retro board. You arguing games made and marketed as RPGs not being RPGs because of reasons you think are important is laughable.
>>3094592
>Designers don't matter since this is a retro board
because designers never look at the past for inspiration and experience
>>3094456
That's a piece of marketing fluff and exaggerated since it has none of the depth and advanced role playing of personal computer games.
Again, haven't read most of this and don't see the point. You are arguing something completely ridiculous.
>>3094598
Of course they do, that's how the Japanese RPG games came about. But arguing genre definitions of already established games is silly. The tiny bits of this thread I've read are mind bogglingly stupid.
>>3092225
this was my fucking shit. i still enjoy it.
>>3094606
>arguing genre definitions of already established games is silly
never too late to point out misattributions or mistakes
>>3094608
>never too late to point out misattributions or mistakes
Yes it is. It really is.
We have been using these descriptions to tell games apart for decades. That's the only reason genre names exist, to give a vague idea of what sort of game it is. Of course it gets muddy when you put everything under a microscope, but that's not the point or the purpose of genre distinctions.
Trying to redefine things based on whatever weird biases and opinions you have is completely idiotic and utterly pointless.
>>3094601
It's pretty clear you haven't read any of the reply chain, since I brought this particular piece up for people that assumed it was never connected to rpgs in marketing. The games are obviously extremely light on any kind of rpg mechanic, but those saying they're divorced from them in every way possible are being just as ridiculous as those claiming they're fully fledged rpgs.
>>3094352
Neither of them are.
>>3094370
It strikes close, but that's fault of the balance skew.
>>3094653
Not every form of progression is an RPG mechanic. If you consider Zelda to be an RPG, then you should include Metroid into list of RPGs as well, because it has about same progression and exploration mechanics (find health upgrades to improve character, abilities to get further into the map etc)
>>3094653
>It's pretty clear you haven't read any of the reply chain
Correct. I got tired of this stupid "debate" in the '90's. Anything you could say I've heard and you're still wrong. You must be either really young or really dense to still be going over this.
>>3094684
Metroid is sort of like a big Zelda dungeon anyway, with of course a ton of platforming and secrets thrown into the mix. I see no problems there.
>>3094703
Believe it or not, your opinion isn't fact. And judging by the rest of this thread, searching for any kind of definition on what qualities constitute an RPG is futile, since everyone has their own ideas. The point that in earler days NoA would sometimes use the word to market Zelda is undisputable fact, and you're a clearly a moron for involving yourself into this if you can't even bother to read what has been said.
Marvelous for super nintendo nice little action puzzle game
Gunple gunmans proof. I see a lot of games I would have recommended in here already. If you like link to the past play the oracle series games too.
>>3094719
Except nobody ever called Metroid an RPG, or claimed that it has RPG elements.
My point is - terminology is inconsistant, especially if you rely on how marketing department handled the advertising a game in a genre it does not belong to.
>>3094763
Correct. What a lot of newfags in this thread fail to grasp is that for a long time there was a certain hype elitism associated with RPGs and thanks to shady marketing and dumb kids, almost any game with a fantasy setting might have been erroneously referred to as an RPG.
in the 80s, RPGs were considered to be the most complex form of game played by the most intellectual of players and that was an association many gamers were hot to bandwagon onto and would reach a long ways to do. Basically until RPGs were fully casualized and the JRPG was born. Then RPG gaming just became any other genre with mostly idiots playing it.
>>3094719
>Believe it or not, your opinion isn't fact.
Opinions have nothing to do with this. You're just wrong. If some kid in 2016 has trouble figuring out retro genre names, it's not my problem. But I honestly find it hard to believe you're that stupid. Dollars to doughnuts you're just trying to be a pedantic twit.
>>3094860
>You're just wrong
Nice argument senpai:^)
>thread starts as a friendly discussion about anons' favorite games
>it ends with a bunch of turbonerds fighting for pointless crap like terminology
It's like clockwork.
>>3094445
shaq here, that was my first reply in that chain 2bh
and we'd obviously have fun xD
well 2bh he'd get butthurt because he'd realise how crappy he is at the vidya. we'd play death by death and he'd have to watch as i go through the whole game without a problem. maybe i'll give him a go occasionally but he'd obviously immediately die so i'll have to play again.
what can ya do? rules are rules!
>>3094779
Why don't you study for a real degree, mr intellectual videogame player.
>>3094779
>in the 80s, RPGs were considered to be the most complex form of game played by the most intellectual of players and that was an association many gamers were hot to bandwagon onto and would reach a long ways to do.
really? why tho? rpgs suck balls and are almost always mechanically redundant. literally the only rpgs to ever exist were souls/bloodborne
>>3095712
>literally the only rpgs to ever exist were souls/bloodborne
*good rpgs
>>3093663
>people claiming Resident Evil isn't survival horror even though it created the name of the genre
what is alone in the dark
>>3093663
>FFIV, a main pillar and bestselling of the RPG video game genre, which greatly made the genre evolve in its storytelling and helped make it more mainstream,
jesus christ. what is ultima? what is might and magic?
it's like you don't know anything about video game history.
>Nesfag
...oh.
>>3093663
>You are saying that FFIV, a main pillar and bestselling of the RPG video game genre, which greatly made the genre evolve in its storytelling
Don't you mean PSII?
The original Hydlide is quite fun. It has a kind of bad name because Americans only got a shitty port years later.
>>3095872
>what is alone in the dark
french
>>3095872
Read my post again.
AITD didn't create the name of the genre. It didn't establish it as a genre either. It was called "action-adventure" at the time. Resident Evil did that.
I never said FF4 created RPG either. That would be an incredibly stupid thing to say considering it's the fourth of its own series, series which wasn't the first RPG.
>>3095872
What did M&M do to evolve in storytelling or make RPGs mainstream?
>>3096000
Diablo made RPG mainstream though, despite belonging to a hack'n'slash subgenre stripped of most parts that make RPGs great. And Baldur's Gate with Fallout shown people what real RPGs should be like.
>>3096185
M&M never had much of a story to speak of.
>>3096192
>stripped of most parts that make RPGs great
A party?
>>3096214
off-combat interaction
>>3096203
Yea, except an epic battle between 2 cosmic entities, political conundrums, secrets of the world of Xeen, battle between heaven and hell...
Whatever helps you sleep well at night buddy.
>>3096214
As in Hack'n'Slash - your only choice is where to put your stats/what spells to learn and whether you should or should not do the quest, and that has no impact on the story whatsoever. In BG for instance most encounters can be solved in different manners, like when someone recognises you as "That guy who blew up the mines" you can - 1)fool him, 2)intimidate him 3)reason with him 4)kill him
>>3096235
>>3096235
Character interaction AND plot were a thing in both Ultima and Wizardry series.
>>3096250
Ultima never really had alternative or peaceful solutions.
>>3096258
Diablo has that as well. You don't find tomes or get the option to talk to NPC about quests for nothing. It was even fully voiced for that purpose, which only applies to one obscure port of Ultima 6.
>>3094779
>in the 80s, RPGs were considered to be the most complex form of game played by the most intellectual of players
Is this really what kids these days think? That's kind of hilarious.
>>3095712
>really? why tho?
The guys who had no friends to get together actual D&D campaigns thought they were the shit. Those are the only ones I ever knew of.
>>3095712
You don't remember the 80s if you don't remember the elitism of CRPG players during this time. How do you explain the desperate rush to casualize and capitalize the genre in the very late 80s and early 90s
>>3096474
> kids these days
I'm beginning to be pretty convinced that people who day this are all in their teens and twenties
>>3096547
>I'm beginning to be pretty convinced that people who day this are all in their teens and twenties
I'm convinced of the same thing from posters like him. There are people here who talk about the 80's as if it's first hand, but what they say is completely ridiculous.
At least in my experience, no one looked at computer RPG players with that kind of reverence. But again as I say, I was big into tabletop roleplaying, so the computer versions tended to get looked down on in general.
Maybe CRPG players thought they were elite, but we didn't see them that way. Hack and Nethack were what the really hardcore computer guys played. That and arcades.
>>3096547
>How do you explain the desperate rush to casualize and capitalize the genre in the very late 80s and early 90s
Japanese companies merging the western RPG and visual novel genres into their own kind of RPG that appeals to Japanese audiences.
>>3096560
>Hack and Nethack were what the really hardcore computer guys played. That and arcades
There are slightly conflicting things in play here. You're right, the hardcore played the arcade. The thing is, as massively challenging and great arcade games are, their mechanics are super shallow. Mind you, I'm not talking about the skill ceiling or the amount of practice it takes to master them, arcade games are definitely out there. I'm talking purely about the computational complexity of the mechanics, the number of variables involved to form decisions within the games. With RPGs you got a lot of stuff going on that matters in the long run. The "context" of a game at any moment can be huge. You got your party, your skills, the current quest log, the relationship (as in good, vs. hostile vs. neutral) with NPC and so on. In that regard, RPGs thought they are the pinnacle of complexity, and I'd dare say, they're not entirely wrong. That does not mean they take the most skill, or they're the most fun, it's just a computational exercise.
No idea where exactly Nethack sits in that regard. It's quite deep in how it can be played, but its context is still more shallow than what any ol' RPG would try to do.
The fact people would rather play arcade or nethack though, shows that computational complexity means fuckall for plain fun.
>>3096568
>No idea where exactly Nethack sits in that regard. It's quite deep in how it can be played, but its context is still more shallow than what any ol' RPG would try to do.
You clearly haven't played a lot of Nethack or other rougelikes, they get incredibly complicated. Though it is a very different set up from CRPGs. Also, I've always strongly preferred roguelikes to regular RPGs.
Also there could be some specific culture, the guys in my highschool really into CRPGs made us D&D fags almost look cool. It's entirely possible they were looking at us thinking the same thing, but that's how I saw it.
The arcade guys, I agree with. Just pointing out they were another group who thought they were elite.
>The fact people would rather play arcade or nethack though, shows that computational complexity means fuckall for plain fun.
It's the statements like this that really make me wonder. How someone was into gaming through the 80's and came away with the impression that Nethack is light on complexity is genuinely baffling to me.
>>3096580
>You clearly haven't played a lot of Nethack or other rougelikes
No nethack, correct. Something about it doesn't resonate with me.
>they get incredibly complicated
I did not deny that. They have very involved mechanics. But their context and the computational complexity is not as high, or at least to the outside it does not look as high. Again, nothing wrong with that. I basically said, RPG fans used a bit of an odd yardstick, because it does not measure anything really useful, aside from the challenge to code it.
>came away with the impression that Nethack is light on complexity
Not what I said, or suggested. I said Nethack is more fun, because computational complexity means nothing regarding fun. All that said though, Nethack is odd, because it's a roguelike gone crazy. They shoved so much in there, and are still shoving, while the scope of the game has not changed. As a result it gets deeper and deeper, not wider. So it may just be the exception to the rule
>>3096584
>But their context and the computational complexity is not as high, or at least to the outside it does not look as high.
What exactly do you mean by this?
Nethack itself I have some issues with, certainly at this point. I don't think it's aged super well in all ways, but it's the one I mention because it's one of the biggest at the time.
What I love about rougelikes is at any given time there's a ton you have to keep in mind and even the smallest action can prove fatal if you're rash.
>>3096593
>What exactly do you mean by this?
I speak like a nethack noob, but it seems there aren't that many variables. They greatly affect what you can or can't do, and there are hundreds, thousands of ways how these variables change, and can bite you or really really help you, but that's it.
Maybe more of that flexibility is just hidden in screens I never saw. Like I said, the game didn't resonate well with me, and I never gave it a fair try. Heard only good things about it though.
>>3096601
Tons of variables you need to keep track of and manage carefully is the real basis of the fun in roguelikes.
For instance, you find a blue potion but you have no idea what it actually does. In the last game you found a blue potion and it healed you, but the time before that it was a bottle of greek fire. So as you play the games more and more you work out tricks to try and determine or narrow down what the potion might be before you actually consume it. They're turn based because you're often in a spot where you can tell you're about to die and need to really look at what resources you have and try to work out some way to get through.
It's layers upon layers of that kind of thing. One of my favorites, I've never even come close to beating is IVAN. Which is basically designed to be nigh impossible to beat, but the joy is the journey towards your horrible inevitable death. It's not a genre for everyone, but I absolutely love them.
>>3096580
It's great that we're actually getting back to decent discussion about actual nuance in this thread. Please don't think that anyone is attacking arcade games or roguelikes or action adventure games in the process of excluding them from the definition of "RPGs". We all love our at least have tremendous respect for all those genres. All of those genres were scale to me when I was a kid and I had yard sale AD&D books too that I desperately loved but only got to play one-off games and MAYBE some two parters at slumber parties. What was prohibitively expensive to me (my parents) were serious computers and computer games so when I saw those RPGs in magazines and heard the rich kids talking about them I imagined that it was like the amazing experience of playing D&D but something you could do by yourself any time you wanted which was basically THE dream for me and obviously a lot of other kids my age judging by the success of RPG pretenders like Adventure and Legend of Zelda and then the wild popularity of the JRPG genre as people my age became old enough to actually make buying decisions as the 90s rolled around.
>>3096614
>For instance, you find a blue potion but you have no idea what it actually does. In the last game you found a blue potion and it healed you, but the time before that it was a bottle of greek fire
Yeah, I'm very familiar with that aspect of roguelikes. I played a few
>They're turn based because you're often in a spot where you can tell you're about to die and need to really look at what resources you have and try to work out some way to get through.
Right, bit of a really nerdy variant of chess++. You need the time, because every move matters.
>>3096547
I was born in '86 so I don't remember the '80s m80.
>>3096618
That all makes a lot of sense. For me, I was already into playing regular D&D before the CRPG games really got big and to me and my friends it always looked like a pale imitation. As such, I've played a few over the years but they never really grabbed me.
Rogue and a handful of other games were given to us by a family friend when we got our first computer and that game had me completely obsessed.
I do dig a few JRPGs, but I see them as a very different genre. To me it's more like playing a game to go on a vacation and explore a world.
>>3096627
Then don't try to comment on the 80s CRPG scene
>>3096632
You on the other hand must be one of the oldest posters on /vr/. I'm used to having the furthest back personal memories having basically grown up with video games (born 1977) but I'm sure someone who was actually a kid in the late 70s and an teen in the 80s would have a different perspective and (I can't stress this enough) an extremely valuable perception of the historical culture. Did you read Vidiot magazine? I've been thinking about collecting that because it represents a culture I thought was so cool when I was a little kid.
>>3096665
>Then don't try to comment on the 80s CRPG scene
I didn't you asshat. I was the first guy you were replying to; all I did was ask about it. Anybody ever tell you that you have about as much charm as dog shit does? 'Cause you do.
>>3096665
Yeah I'm from '74. It's good to see at least one other 70's kid around here though. It seems like there used to be more of us.
I had friends who had some vidiot magazines, but I never collected them. Truth be told, aside from Rogue and a few other games I didn't really get into video gaming as a big hobby until the later 80's and 90's.
I didn't really care for a lot of early arcade games and even NES stuff. Even Mario never really grabbed me. I had an NES, but didn't play it a ton. Rogue was one of the few games then that I really loved. With arcades it was really when Street Fighter started to get big and it hooked me that I got involved.
I do love video games and they've been some part of almost my whole life, but they've always been just one of my hobbies and not even the bigger ones. So in that sense I'd make kind of a crappy historian. At least about that.
>>3096702
What are you geezers playing nowadays? Got some classics you still whip out? Or chasing the latest fads? Something else?
shadowrun genesis
>>3096707
A bit of both. I love games of all eras. There are still some classics I haven't even given the time I'd like to and always new games coming out that I like.
Lately and topic related I've been playing through Beyond Oasis and Legend of Oasis back and forth depending whether I'm playing at home or while commuting. They're both games I've played before, but I still find them entertaining.
>>3091819
Man, I still remember how happy I was after finding all the seashells. Best LoZ for me.
>>3096707
77fag here. I play mostly Skylanders with my 3 year old. I had a 360 and was pretty into the modding scene for that (and OG Xbox) before I got married and was really into Dark Souls then just recently PS3 got cheap enough I've been seriously collecting for it. Unfortunately, as good as it is I just don't have the time to pour into Demon's Souls that I had hoped I would so when I do have time to myself I play lighter fare. I was enjoying The Last of Us until the disc crapped out on me, searching for another cheap copy and beat Heavy Rain in the mean time although it was a bit lighter on gameplay than I'd have liked. I may go back and replay chapters for "best" ending though. The whole family has been enjoying Nino Ku Ni pretty okay so I play that a bit.
As far as /vr/ related goes I recently finished building and configuring a beast of a Windows 98se computer and installed the ExoDOS collection on it plus the classic computer games I've picked up cheap at retail. I've been playing Deus Ex the most down there, and Unreal Gold. Like I said I never had the budget for computer gaming so it's a nice feeling going back and getting to do so.
>>3096702
Sounds like you just had friends who lived closer and were able to spend more time playing D&D. Did you live in the city? I was more of a towny there were neighborhood kids but they were more interested in bikes and VCS than something as nerdy as D&D.
>>3096681
Suck a dick, Nugganooch!
>>3096742
I lived on the outskirts of a city, so kind of the best of both worlds. I also was lucky that there was an amazing hobby shop near me that got me into all that nerdy stuff early.
I hear you on not having as much time to game anymore. Half the time I take the train to work is it gives me an hour each way of nothing else to do but play something. Which seems like a rare luxury these days.
>>3096564
Like Rance or what?
Action RPGs were also largely a Japanese thing in the mid 80s before games like Dungeon Master came out.
Some of those early titles like Hydlide or Dragon Slayer were really simple but others like Xanadu or Sorcerian were fairly complex.
Xanadu in particular was a huge hit in Japan and only prevented from overseas success due to copyright infringement.
Nobody has mentioned Brainlord yet? The hell?
>>3099131
Never played Brainlord, sell me on it?
>>3099156
The playstyle reminds me of Crystalis. It's action Rpg for the most part, but with a lot of logic puzzles that start off simple but soon become hard as fuck in some areas. Great music and feel, but it's one of those personal preference kind of games. You either love it or hate it.
>>3099198
Interesting it sounds like my kind of thing. I love Crystalis. Thanks, I'll check it out.
>>3099204
You'll probably like it then but fuck is it tedious and the story is pretty flat. I've owned it for almost 20 years and never beaten it.
>>3099210
Well I don't care at all about story, and what you described sounds fun. I seem to have a little odd taste in these games already, I still like the Oasis games better than any others but they don't seem very popular in general.
Brainlord I've never tried though, so sounds like it's time.
>>3099219
I'm not the guy who initially described it I just have experience with it. I wouldn't even say I actively dislike it, it's just that it's kind of a weird game that always made me feel like I could be doing something else instead, even when I was 20.
>>3096715
Some of my best Saturn memories involved this game.
>get it for Christmas
>me & bro play by turns, it's fun, but soon we go back to Saturn Bomberman
>next day, buy a game magazine
>cheat code explaining how to unlock multiplayer in Legend of Oasis
>we both run home, play the shit out of it, all night long
>>3092880
Because if we go with you standards even fucking Metroid is a RPG.
>>3099587
It's amazing how many people don't recognize that Zelda and Metroid are almost exactly the same type of game except one is side scrolling and the other is top down.
>>3099620
>except one is side scrolling and the other is top down
until 2
>>3099625
But Zelda 2 is actually an ARPG unlike Zelda 1 and Metroid.
>>3099632
it's because it's sidescrolling, isn't it?
>>3099635
No. It's because it has XP. Metroid is side scrolling and not an RPG
>>3099646
XP doesn't run on the NES, you need at least a Pentium
>>3099635
No, because of the XP system. But let's not get into this again.
>>3099625
Yeah true, I apparently ignored 2 like most of the rest of the world. ;_;
>>3099652
Why not? I consider experience points a pen&paper leftover, that shouldn't be in video game RPGs, but is, because developers are still doing pen&paper imitations
>>3099658
A game where the more you kill things, your character levels up and gets more powerful is intrinsically different from one where killing things doesn't get you much or any reward.
For better or worse, XP based leveling is one of the key hallmarks of the RPG genre. But I do agree it's often not great for gameplay.
>>3099667
>your character levels up
implementation detail
>gets more powerful
does not require xp
>reward
sheesh, that's how you people think of xp? no wonder the system's so messed up
>For better or worse
worse, definitely. you proved it nicely
>>3099632
But then, aside from growing a few primitive attributes through exp points instead of collection, it's structuraly very similar to the other games. In fact, I've been playing it recently again and I'd go so far as to say that the experience system is its only unique feature now, since all the other stuff has been done by later games too (magic buffs = OoT crystals, WW/TP potions, jump button = roc's feather, big towns in TP, learnable weapon skills are in most games post-WW etc). And if that's your only criteria for a game sharing similarities with an RPG, I refer you to some kind anons further up in this thread who'd probably like some words with you.
>>3099670
Did you completely miss the point that badly?
>gets more powerful
>does not require xp
Of course there are games where you get more powerful in ways other than gaining XP. It's when one of the main ways your character gets more power is by the number of enemies you have killed that it changes gameplay.
It's that interaction that has become one of the defining characteristics of the video game RPG genre.
>worse, definitely. you proved it nicely
And this is why genres are useful. Even though you may like tabletop roleplaying games, the video game "RPG" genre clearly doesn't appeal to you. So on almost any game, you can bet that if it's listed as an RPG it will have an XP based leveling system and you probably don't want to waste your time with it.
That "RPG" is a poor descriptor for the genre is just par for the course. "Puzzle" is a pretty poor descriptor for Tetris as well. Same with Shmup/ shoot 'em up which refers to a very specific kind of game, despite the actual name fitting far more types of games.
>>3099698
>It's when one of the main ways your character gets more power is by the number of enemies you have killed that it changes gameplay.
Why does it have to be through kill count? Why does it have to be xp?
>It's that interaction that has become one of the defining characteristics of the video game RPG genre.
No, just the usage of xp, which is but one of many possible mechanisms to produce character progression. You're so stuck in it though, you weasel around as if that's the absolutely only way to have an rpg character.
>Even though you may like tabletop roleplaying games
I don't
>the video game "RPG" genre clearly doesn't appeal to you
Because it's too closely emulating the tabletop system. A system created with the knowledge that the state must at any time be visible, and that computations must be simple and sparse
>So on almost any game, you can bet that if it's listed as an RPG it will have an XP based leveling system
Yeah, and it's because of bullshit like what you're giving off here.
>>3099417
>+1 Bro would play games with /10
Legend of Oasis multiplayer is crazy amounts of fun and lets you sequence break through whole sections.
It also has an interesting take on a leveling system. In that you can kill as many enemies as you want without gaining XP, you actually gain magic and health when you restore it.
So if you wanted to, at the beginning of game you could just keep taking damage and healing until you have tons of HP. But that's the opposite of how it's intended to be played. The best players show how low a rank then can beat it with. Since by the end how much HP you have is a direct result of how much damage you took over the course of the game.
I think it's a pretty brilliant system, making the game accessible to worse players but with a lot of room for challenge for better players. Towards the end of the game if you haven't built up HP it gets more and more risky.
>>3099736
>Why does it have to be through kill count? Why does it have to be xp?
I don't know, it's the standard of the genre. Games that don't have that, even otherwise similar ones like Zelda, end up being listed as different genres. It doesn't matter why it is the way it is, it's just one of those key markers of what makes an RPG an RPG. Genre names are really only there to distinguish one kind of game from another.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that I'm either a huge lover of RPGs or defending XP based leveling. I'm not really doing either, I'm just explaining the state of things and why they are how they are.
It doesn't really bother me, but I have been a player of tabletop roleplaying games for a long time.
>Yeah, and it's because of bullshit like what you're giving off here.
What bullshit? I didn't name the genre. I'm just saying that if you don't like the way RPGs work, which you obviously don't then at least they should be easy for you to avoid. There's nothing bad about that, it's a good thing.
>>3099779
>Games that don't have that
Oh come on, you can not be that dense.
>or defending XP based leveling
To the point that you exclude any character progression mechanism, yes. No, I am not talking about powerups. You have a strong bias. I just can't tell if it's because you like XP so much, or if it's because the history of the genre is so rotten, that people can't think outside the box any longer.
>What bullshit?
treating xp based character progressing as the only mechanism of character progression. Mind you, I use CHARACTER progression to mean that, excluding armor, items or powerups.
>if you don't like the way RPGs work, which you obviously don't then at least they should be easy for you to avoid
Maybe here's what you don't understand: I love RPGs, the concept of RPGs, the mechanisms they involve. I hate XP, because it's by far the cheapest and lamest mechanism to do character progression. Sadly, the genre is virtually nothing else, and I blame people like you. Not you in particular, but developers are stuck in the exact same patterns, doing ever more precise table top emulations, completely missing that they're having a computer in front of them. It's frustrating as fuck.
>>3099798
>treating xp based character progressing as the only mechanism of character progression.
You're calling me dense and this is what you come back with? Can you even read? I'm not saying that at all. In fact I said exactly the opposite.
What I'm saying is that type of leveling is one of the key things people look at to determine if a game will fall under the "RPG" genre. I didn't decide that. I didn't even say I liked that. All I'm saying is that's the way it is.
> I love RPGs, the concept of RPGs,
This is what I'm trying to explain. You may like the concept of RPGs. But the reality of RPG games as a genre doesn't work for you because they're all based around a leveling system you find cheap and lame.
And I AGREE with you. I don't like it either, it's part of the reason I play very few RPGs. Especially retro era ones.
But it's important to understand that that's the way things are. If you see "RPG" as the genre of a game, it's probably not going to be what you want. I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm just trying to save you time.
See, /vr/'s favorite troll is getting hung up on the names of things.
>>3099834
>What I'm saying is that type of leveling is one of the key things people look at to determine if a game will fall under the "RPG" genre
You are also saying that YOU are using that crooked yardstick. And I'm calling that practice bullshit, what's so hard to understand?
>I didn't even say I liked that
You're just tacitly taking it for granted to the point that it can and will exclude games that would fit the genre much better, but don't check that magical checkbox.
>If you see "RPG" as the genre of a game, it's probably not going to be what you want
So what should I call rpgs then? After all, you can have games that are logically rpgs that aren't rpgs in that twisted video game sense you claim to make up, because they lack the magical number, and you can have games that have that magic number, so they should be video game rpgs, but they aren't rpgs, because that number is just a scaler for the mobs and numbers thrown around during fights. How can I recognize the games "that I want", if they are rpgs, but aren't rpgs?
What's the use of genre descriptors that describe nothing?
The whole reason we're having this exchange is because the widely accepted "definition" is worth fuckall, and here you go and claim "that's just how it is"? No sir, I do not accept that. The whole premise is bullshit. If the definitions are imprecise, they need to be fixed, instead of handwaving away the obvious gaps.
>>3099851
>You are also saying that YOU are using that crooked yardstick. And I'm calling that practice bullshit, what's so hard to understand?
It's not my yardstick, dude.
>So what should I call rpgs then?
You should call them RPGs because that's what everyone else calls them. The purpose of language is that we all have a common understanding of what terms refer to.
It doesn't matter that "RPG" doesn't fit what you would like it to mean. All that matters is the cultural understanding of what that it means. And for better or worse, XP leveling is a key aspect of defining something as RPG.
And that's why I went out of my way to explain that most genre names don't really make sense if you analyze them carefully.
>>3099851
>If the definitions are imprecise, they need to be fixed
No they don't you turbo autist. No one gives a shit that you get triggered by what an RPG is. No one anywhere is changing what they call those games to suit you.
Cry about it all you want, it's not changing.
>>3099871
"If you see "Lion" written on a cage with a dog - don't trust your eyes"
>>3099893
Don't trust your eyes looking at the sign that says lion? Or don't trust your eyes looking at the animal that's a god?
>>3099917
It's a saying in my country. Ambiguity is intended.
Literal meaning: "You can either call it as you see it, and others may call you fool for doing so, or you could go with the rest of the fools that mislabel it, therefore becoming a fool"
>>3099925
Ahh. That would make much more sense with something more sensical than genre names. Like I say, if you look at any of them closely they barely make sense. Fighting games and Brawlers easily could have had the names reversed and it would make as much sense.
Many words are like that though, especially in a mongrel language like English. But language can only work when there's a mutual agreement of what means what.
I get that you don't like that RPG games don't really have a lot of actual roleplaying in them, but in the end it really doesn't matter. All that matters is when two strangers talk about "RPG games" the term means the same thing to both of them.
For your sake in your head just have RPG mean "Really Plebeian Games" or something.
>>3099887
This. Nobody wants a /mu/style situation where there are 200 subgenres of "electronica."
>>3099925
And you're the retard who looks at a cage with a lion in it that says "lion" and you scream at everyone they should start calling it a dog because that's what it looks like to you.
>>3099949
"brawler" - is a genre made up by lame journos who can't type in "beat'em'up".
"Hack'n'slash"- is a definition that got bastardized by people who do not know how to define "cuhrazee-style" action games, heard the term "hacknslash" somewhere and thought it sounds like it fits.
Sources from late 90's are actually way more reliable in terms of genre definition, because back then magazines were published by actual journalists. Nowadays any jock with a keyboard can call Zelda an "RPG" and the public will be none the wiser.
Recent xample: A modern retro-inspired game "Slain!" (dont buy it - it's an utter trash with cool graphics btw) is tagged as "metroidvania" by its own authors on steam while having linear levels, no exploration and no ability progression or any other thing you are used to in "metroidvania" - its a linear platformer.
That's why we have jRPG for japanese "linear-story-oriented-thingy-with-stats" shit and RPG for :pen-and-paper-influenced-shape-your-own-hero" shit, and Action RPG that has action-like direct control over character, but also has RPG stats and progression.
>>3100012
Both terms used. Replace "brawler" with "beat'em'up" and it's still exactly the same and you know it. At this point I'm convinced you're just acting like an idiot to get responses. I'm done.
Role.
Playing.
Game.
If I play Rock 'n Roll Racing, I am playing role of a futuristic race car driver. I might even fall into character if I feel like it. I am playing that role, within the confines of a game.
You are all fucking retarded.
Fucking Sonic the hedgehog, you play the role of a fucking gay hedgehog in a fucking game.
Unless you are, in reality, the actual protagonist the game is based on, you are fucking ROLE PLAYING!!!!!!!
>>3101336
I think Role Play is more subtle than that. It's about making choices in line with a character given many options. Yeah, as a Paladin you could kick some peasants ass to get gold quick, or you could do honest work. Thief is complete opposite.
As Sonic, you only have one goal, and pretty much there is only one way to obtain it; move right until the end of the level and don't die. Variations in how the goal is obtained are down to skill, not players' consideration of the moral psychology of Sonic.
Due to limitations, console RPGs often lack the interactive depth to really qualify as what would pass for as a table-top RPG. Typically there is only one path forward, which doesn't leave much to the imagination. However combat, exploration, getting cool shit, and story arcs are all there. There is enough overlap in mechanics that both console and table-top RPGs can be group together in the same genre mechanics-wise.
>>3101361
>Due to limitations, console RPGs often lack the interactive depth to really qualify as what would pass for as a table-top RPG.
There is still no computer or program that can come even close to a DM running an actual game. What's more the mechanics of table top RPGs and computer games are almost completely separate at this point. The two things share a common origin and name, but really aren't similar at all other than that.
>There is enough overlap in mechanics that both console and table-top RPGs can be group together in the same genre mechanics-wise.
This makes me think you've never even played a tabletop roleplaying game.
>>3091886
>Hydlide
and much fun was had
![weapon_vs_ac_1[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/neYlfez.jpg "weapon_vs_ac_1[1].jpg")
>>3101765
This makes me think you've never DMed. See how that's an aggressive thing to say that immediately pisses you off and starts you formulating an angry response when in reality you may very well have DMed plenty, just with a much stronger focus on storytelling and NPC interaction than on combat and mechanics.
Although a DM can think on his feet and improvise, particularly where it comes to NPC interaction there's only so much scope and mechanics that a human being can juggle in his head. A terrific example of this is pic related, a table intended to be consulted for every melee attack in armed and armored combat. For combat to proceed smoothly this would need to be memorized by the DM in addition to juggling THAC0s, ACs, Initiative orders, attack speed, casting times and all the other live variables of combat. For this reason, tables like this were largely eliminated from tabletop RPGs in the mid-80s while on the other hand computer RPGs were taking advantage of superhuman calculation speeds and layering to introduce mechanics far far beyond what's possible sitting at a table with pen, paper and dice.
So yeah, tabletop role playing is a collaborative storytelling experience that can't be replicated even by NWN but as a GAMING experience, computer RPGs surpassed tabletops decades ago.But they also don't have the human checks and balances to prevent game-breaking, which is what most vidya RPGs ultimately become about and why modern "patching" can be seen as a good thing from certain perspectives
>>3101791
>See how that's an aggressive thing to say that immediately pisses you off and starts you formulating an angry response when in reality you may very well have DMed
No, I was just going to politely tell you I've been playing and running games since the 80's. Honestly, I thought you were this guy >>3099736 who doesn't play them, but does talk about them a fair bit.
It still seemed to me like you didn't know what you were talking about but your focus on the mechanics makes me realize where you're coming from though. Yes, in terms of handling combat mechanics, a computer has a much easier time dealing with things like THACO. But that's also partly why newer versions of D&D do away with THACO and a lot of the other earlier mechanics to streamline combat.
I was coming at this from the perspective of someone who has usually played in more roleplaying focused games where combat is more of a rare event. The climax of a gaming session as opposed to the whole thing for instance.
The bulk of the actual game is how the players navigate and interact with the world and the characters. When combat happens, it's usually because other negotiations or strategies have failed and it's a last resort.
It's that part, the story telling and world building that computers can't come close to replicating. You can build a really detailed world for someone to explore as an in-game avatar, but it's just a different experience to be mutually telling and forming a story as a group of people and playing through a scripted computer game.
But also, I realize if you played much more combat dungeon crawler style campaigns then you might have a very different perspective on the matter.
I'm just starting to get into LoZ. I picked up ocarina of time today and my copy of a link to the past will be here in a week or so. Should I wait to play aLttP before ocarina or go ahead?
Also for my next steps I'm thinking about getting Link's Awakening DX or Minish Cap if I liked aLttP and Wind Waker if I preferred OoT. Does this progression sound reasonable?
>>3101824
I wrote >>3101361, but someone else responded with >>3101791. I agree with both of you.
In my post I was underlining combat mechanics as being the primary overlap, and dude had a good example of how even simple mechanics can balance into a nightmare. Computers can definitely facilitate combat, although they aren't as flexible as a DM.
And rightly so. As you observed, no computer program has been able to emulate the interaction and spontaneity of a human table-top experience, which is arguably much more 'the game' when it comes to D&D than the combat.
Truly table-top and computer RPGs are very different beasts. Like any art, game mechanics cater to the medium. Each experience has to gravitate to what is realizable and fun with how the game is presented, such that table-top games focus more on interactive and generative stories, while computers shift focus to more mechanical combat.
That being said, FF and D&D share more overlap with each other than say checkers or a shmup. They have common roots and elements. They just emphasize things differently.
>>3092225
>aka Mystic Quest
Mystic Quest is an unrelated SNES game.
>>3101361
>>3101765
>>3101824
Butting in here to say I'm not really happy with the terminology of RPG being used to describe mechanics. I feel that the term RPG should be used to refer to games that are more about the story than the gameplay itself, ala Final Fantasy; that is, RPG used to describe the main force behind design decisions. Branching storylines may or may not be involved, but ultimately it's about experiencing the story.
For the XP and stats mechanics, I'd prefer another term, although I don't really know what word to use here.
>>3103158
It's known as Mystic Quest in PAL regions.
>>3103186
Huh... learn something new everyday.
>>3103176
wow, that's like the polar opposite to what RPGs are, well done. Sprinkled with a false dichotomy about stats, you're on a roll
>>3093281
>most console RPGs have very little to do with their table top brethren in terms of how players can influence stories
You realize that most oldschool RPG players (and designers) didn't give jack shit about stories, right?
In Gygax's own D&D campaigns, it was a very crunch-oriented game where the players were given a specific quest, and their goal was to complete said quest. Interaction was basically limited to puzzles, monsters, and treasure. DM's in the 80's would have laughed in your face if you told them you wanted to influence the story in a meaningful way. The concept of "role playing", as you appear to understand it, is a relatively modern concept.
