What makes a JRPG good to you?
What are the strengths of the genre? What does it do right and what does it do wrong?
What are the best qualities of a good JRPG?
Tell me about JRPGs dammit
>>3072857
>What makes a JRPG good to you?
Open-world design, not being pigeon-holed into good or evil roles throughout the story, total freedom to develop your character(s) however you want instead of being forced into a specific class-based role, tons of sidequests and other optional content, rewarding difficulty level, character romances, (including same-sex) emphasis on *role-playing* instead of statistics and min-maxing, un-shitty translation quality, no censorship whatsoever.
So really, there aren't any "good" retro JRPGs out there. It wasn't until just recently that series like Elder Scrolls or Fallout started perfecting the role-playing formula. Older games were plagued by too many issues, especially censorship.
If I had to stick with retro, I would say Vagrant Story, King's Field or SaGa are all great JRPGs, although at the same time severely lacking compared to the freedom normally found in Western RPGs.
>>3072857
Combat system.
>>3073297
>Elder Scrolls or Fallout
>rewarding difficulty level
I also find WRPGs to be extremely gay, but you don't need to try that hard.
>>3073340
>rewarding difficulty level
I never said Elder Scrolls or Fallout embodied all the qualities of a perfect RPG, just that they're closer to perfecting the formula.
I never did care for the adjustable difficulty slider. Essentially all it does it cause enemies to deal tons more damage without changing up their AI in any way.
>>3072857
>what makes a good one
When the gameplay is the focus and not the story. It's true that RPGs can be great for storytelling but I enjoy games where the designers didn't forget that fighting monsters, finding stuff, and getting stronger is fun all in itself.
You posted one of my favorites so that speaks for how I feel.
Freedom.
This can come from party creation, character development (choosing how character grow from stats to skills), how you can outfit your characters, exploration of the world, and how you can approach quests.
>>3072857
>What makes a JRPG good to you?
Good balance, non-boss encounters that can't be slept through, challenging and interesting boss fights, having enough story so that it's there to give context to what you're doing but doesn't overwhelm the player with shitty cutscenes with irritating characters that take up half of the game's playtime.
>what does it do wrong?
A lot of games took after FF6 and 7, where challenge and gameplay are thrown to the wayside, where experimentation with the game's customization systems and the minigames are the only fun to be had with the game and the former makes the rest of the game even less fun because it breaks it, and story becomes the clear focus of the game instead of it being a more equal split like FFIV.
I'd also argue that SaGa is an example of what not to do. The games won't click until you've beaten them a couple of times, the mechanics are opaque at best and are far more likely to end up with you screwing yourself over until you get one, balance is slipshod in most of the games, quest triggers are arcane at the best of times, area design is consistently barebones after the GB games, and in general they're set up so that they're a complete pain in the ass to anyone who isn't familiar with them and reward a form of play that is far closer to LLGs than it is anything else, which I find abhorrent and is exactly what I don't want out of a JRPG.
JRPGs aren't real rpgs. They're pretty much linear stories where the combat is number crunching instead of action. That being said, when the story is good then the game can be considered good I guess. The gameplay is literally the same as pressing subtract on a calculator. Anyway, Final Fantasy 6, 7, that Legend of the Super Saijan on snes and Chrono Trigger are the only good ones.
>>3073439
>the mechanics are opaque at best
The mechanics are different, not opaque. You can't fault the series for not recycling the same gameplay mechanics found in dozens of other RPGs.
Any confusion can be remedied by simply reading the manual. (Although that suggestion won't do you much good if you're playing a translated ROM)
>quest triggers are arcane
Literally just talk to NPCs.
>area design is consistently barebones after the GB games
What's that, you say? You've never played a SaGa game before?
(I wanted to attach a map of the Divine Tower from RS3, but it was actually TOO large to upload.)
http://www.spriters-resource.com/fullview/10136/
>>3073348
>When the gameplay is the focus and not the story.
Exactly the opposite is true. If you don't like story you should stick to your ugly jump and run games and fps shooters and not jrpgs.
jrpgs are the only good games because they have deep story and are cinematic.
>>3073475
>The mechanics are different, not opaque.
Attack rolls are actually attack rolls that are then compared to a table to determine their effect. Please tell me more about how this isn't opaque.
>Literally just talk to NPCs.
A) RS1
B) That's not good enough. I can think of multiple quests that had completely random NPCs that have nothing to do with a quest attached to their progression - rescuing the kid in the Devil's Castle in RS3 and T260G's main quest.
>You've never played a SaGa game before?
Clearly not, and one dungeon that isn't even as big as dungeons in competing games doesn't really change a pattern of behavior. SaGa Frontier is one of the worst examples ever even if you take cut content into account.
>>3072857
#1: Interesting battle or leveling mechanics.
How often do I get to make an interesting decision? Either tactically in combat or what to level up or improve with my character.
#2: Good leveling and difficulty balance.
Perfect balance in an RPG is where by exploring everywhere fully but not stopping to grind, the next boss you come to should be challenging but just beatable.
#3: Interesting world to explore and interesting characters
Finally the setting has to be interesting enough that I want to explore and care what happens to the world and characters.
>>3073505
>Attack rolls
No idea what you're talking about. Are you referring to Unlimited Saga's reel system? It wasn't difficult to understand, although there was a heavy element of luck involved.
>RS1
What about it? Talking to NPCs is how you open new locations.
>That's not good enough
Sure it is. Just talk to everybody. What's difficult to understand about this?
>SaGa Frontier is one of the worst examples
SaGa Frontier has a considerably large world, especially if you take into account all the available sidequests. Sidequests aren't even mutually-exclusive to each scenario, so you can in fact have Emelia hunt down runes, then start up the rune quest in another character's scenario after finishing Emelia's.
>>3073542
>No idea what you're talking about
This is literally RS3's accuracy system and I'm pretty sure the same thing applies to RS2.
>What about it?
RS1 is notorious for quests that disqualify you based on time passed, battle rank, and other ridiculous bullshit that is impossible to know ahead of time. You should already know this.
>What's difficult to understand about this?
What's difficult to understand about keeping quest triggers limited to NPCs relevant to the quest instead of spreading them all over for no reason other than to fuck with the player?
>SaGa Frontier has a considerably large world
And a lot of the areas in it are lacking in detail at best, and that's if they serve any purpose at all.
>>3073571
>RS1 is notorious for quests that disqualify you based on time passed, battle rank, and other ridiculous bullshit that is impossible to know ahead of time. You should already know this.
You never mentioned any of this in your post. Almost every RPG has time-exclusive quests or missable content. I don't like it, but it's something that comes with the territory. To direct this complaint at SaGa specifically is absurd. I do agree with you though.
>What's difficult to understand about keeping quest triggers limited to NPCs relevant to the quest
There's nothing unrealistic about random people coming across rumors, and relaying said rumors to you when you speak with them, whether or not they have any personal involvement in a quest. "Speak to everybody" is a common axiom when it comes to RPGs. Again, you're singling out SaGa when this type of occurrence is a common RPG staple.
>and that's if they serve any purpose at all
You mean aside from loads of treasure and decent grinding spots? Not every area has to have a quest attached to it.
For me the 3 things what makes a JRPG good is: charisma of the characters, Story and Music. Obviously a good combat system help too.
>>3073592
>You never mentioned any of this in your post.
Again, this is something that you should already know if you played the game, and on top of that most of RS1's content comes from sidequests so there's a world of difference between a typical RPG doing it and RS1 doing it.
>Again, you're singling out SaGa when this type of occurrence is a common RPG staple.
They're not equivalent at all. If you need to talk to literally everyone in an area to get a plotline to advance in a typical RPG, it's going to be obvious that you need to do it and there's going to be obvious confirmation that you triggered it. In something like RS3, something like trying to get Thomas to open the fucking door has no confirmation aside from him deciding he wants to open it and the progression of this and it's tied to infinitely more characters that have jack shit to do with the questline than ones that do.
>You mean aside from loads of treasure and decent grinding spots?
Some areas don't even have that.
>>3073297
This is bait right?
What makes a good jrpg is very clearly the opposite of what you've described:
good story, cleverly designed linear game play that gives the illusion of an open world, strongly developed characters with personalities that you care about, systems that can be mastered for min-maxing your way through the game if you just care about the story
>>3073297
>>3074021
From what I understand, there's two very distinct styles of JRPG.
Old school role-playing where your imagination fills in the story. Typically you create the entire party and customize them to your liking. Usually the characters say nothing or are blank canvases. Early Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest do this, modern series like Etrian Odyssey too.
and
Heavy story based JRPG with preset characters. The game is essentially a pre-packaged adventure story which replaces the self-inserting with narrative. Most JRPGs follow this route.
>>3074294
lel, but that guy just said there are no good "retro" jrpgs.
I bet he's the type of person that spends hours on a character creation screen. Yuck.
>>3074294
Only dragon Quest that did that was 2, wasn't it?
>>3072857
There are no good qualities of a JRPG. Everything a JRPG does well a visual novel can do better, because it's not being constantly interrupted by pointless battles. FFVII was a defining game of my childhood, but I won't pretend it was good.
Note that I don't count action RPGs or grid based tactical RPGs as JRPGs, and those are not automatically shit.
>>3073571
>RS1 is notorious for quests that disqualify you based on time passed, battle rank, and other ridiculous bullshit that is impossible to know ahead of time. You should already know this.
There is nothing bad about that, they wanted to make a world that continually progresses with the players involved or lack there of. It provides a bit more of a real world that doesn't wait around for the player to decide things will change, the world will progress with the player.
Love it or hate it there is nothing wrong with it. Personally I like that I have my own initial experience from the game that others may not have experienced, and later play throughs I find new quests that I never knew existed or see extensions of other quests I took part of but didn't know of.
>>3073297
Shut up, faggot.
>>3074894
He's someone who wants to be able to go into a game blind and 100% it on his first try. Not even worth wasting your time on people like that.
>>3075662
Cool strawman.
>>3073483
JRPGs don't have especially deep stories. You're better off watching anime if you don't care about gameplay.
>>3074384
Dragon Quest III and IX, but generally you aren't shipped from place to place in the stories and sequence breaking is usually possible.
jrpgs are all about raising your stats, finding better gear, upgrading skills, etc.
>but muh story
any jrpg story is shit
>>3080770
But the gameplay of raising stats and finding gear is almost always at least as shallow as the stories. Most just have a new incremental set of gear at each town priced just high enough you have to waste time grinding if you want it.
JRPG strategy is considered deep if you have to do something as revolutionary as buff and de-buff enemies. There are many where the "gameplay" is 90% just having everyone attack over and over.
People play JRPGs because they like them, simple as that. Look at any of the reasons closely enough and they're all stupid.
