Ultima Underworld, a game that is older than Wolfenstein 3D, had every game mechanic any later first person action RPG ever had, in some embryonic but distinct form.
PROVE ME WRONG
What's so controversial about that?
Most people acknowledge that UW was years ahead of its time.
It's crazy that they included things like hearing range that served no practical purpose in the game.
>>2847129
Yeah OK but, actually I should rephrase my OP, the thing is there don't seem to have been any real fundamental game mechanic innovations in the genre since this game.
I mean, are people really sufficiently aware of this? It really doesn't reflect very well on game developers, does it? Why is it so hard to introduce real fundamental innovations to this genre? Why does it seem like reviewers constantly talk about games as if they do so anyways?
I guess that's sort of what I want to discuss.
>>2847139
I guess because gaming as a medium is iterative, so there's only so many truely innovative ideas that break the mold, so most games take mechanics that exist and try to either improve them, or expand them
>>2847139
>I mean, are people really sufficiently aware of this?
People in their thirties or late twenties?
Probably.
Younger than that?
Hardly.
Does make change anything in the status quo of current game desing and opinions?
Don't think so.
>>2847139
>the thing is there don't seem to have been any real fundamental game mechanic innovations in the genre since this game
Yeah, and? Once we moved into 3D, "progress" in gaming just became about better graphics. That's why 3D ruined gaming.
>>2847409
I guess I should repost this in one of the other v boards since there's just too much consensus on this in here lol. I mean in those you get all the kiddies who don't have a clue I suppose. They might actually argue about it.
>>2847101
not everyone has time for RPGs. people like to shoot stuff. it's obvious why wlfenstein 3D would have a larger audience.
>>2847607
I'm not so sure. I think the big reason it was relatively overlooked at the time was it just had too high resource requirements. Most PC's just couldn't run it properly.
It should also be mentioned that this was basically the first full first person action rpg and perhaps people didn't know what to expect from it.
It did apparently move 2 million copies (legally) so it didn't even do that badly. It just missed the typical hype that occurs when a game turns out to be a hit on coming out.
>>2847101
Does it have any of these?
Updating Journal
Quests
Crafting
Custom spell creation
Custom magic item crafting
Randomly generated content
Strafing and/or leaning
Blocking and/or riposting
Cover usable by players and/or opponents
Enemies that yield instead of fighting to the death
Environmental hazards and storytelling
Vastly different environments
Riding and/or usable vehicles
Sound AI that determines sounds by what materials interact with each other
In any case these are all just tools which don't matter at all if you don't know how to use them.
Every painting requires a medium (paper) and tools (brush and paint) and skill to utilize all of them properly.
You don't need to re-invent the wheel to make a better car when round ones work just fine.
>>2847139
>not realizing that games are not actually innovating even though developers today have far more resources and making games is cheaper than ever for anyone.
the most innovative games are indie ones and even the truly novel ones are pretty rare.
>>2847409
>implying graphics wasn't just as huge back then
>>2847726
It definitely has
>Quests
>Crafting
>Strafing
>Cover usable by players and/or opponents
>Environmental hazards and storytelling
>Custom spell creation
Is probably taking it a bit far but there are a few extra spells you can deduct by experimenting with the runes.
>Enemies that yield instead of fighting to the death
They'll flee in many cases. Some are scripted to initiate a dialog after you significantly wound them which can return them to a friendly status.
>Vastly different environments
That's more a case for UW2 where you have ice caves, an alien planet and a psychedelic trip.
>Custom magic item crafting
UW2 has a spell to enchant items.
>Updating Journal
You get an automap to which you can add your own notes but it's best to keep notes on paper since you can only access the map outside of dialogs.
>>2847743
Ultima Underworld is the game that made 3D huge. Obviously there were polygon games before it but Undeworld had texture mapping etc to make it a whole new thing.
>>2847726
Hm, I'm gonna assume you haven't played the game, in which case, do so at the first opportunity, maybe read a little bit about Ultima lore/universe, then play Ultima Underworld 2. Thank yourself later. Anyways,
> Updating Journal
You mean like create notes that are relevant to things happening in the game? Didn't previous rpg's have that? Technically you can't, but you can actually write notes on your level maps, which you can scroll through on whichever level. It doesn't need some kind of automated system of keeping notes of progress because it's relatively non linear.
> Quests
Yeah, the entire progression is driven by quests, some being more general than others.
> Crafting
Yes, and some of recipes aren't explicitly hinted at in the game, for instance use corn cob on torch to make popcorn which is slightly more nutritious. I'm pretty sure this was also a first for 3D games at least. You can also repair equipment on anvils, your chance of succeeding vs fucking up your item depending on the Repair skill.
> Custom spell creation
OK this is a bit of a stretch, but... Minimally. Let me explain.
the spell system depends on you collecting runes in a rune bag and then making maximum 3 rune spells on a little scrabble tab you keep on your general interface. clicking it then drains the appropriate mana from your reserve and loads one firing of the spell.
Now, what makes it "minimally custom spells" is... The separate runes sort of have their own "semantic", so that some spells can be discovered from inferring what you could expect to happen if you used the rune. Good examples are the V and B rune, which basically act as prefixes to magnify and reduce a spell's strength, respectively. These "specific semantic meanings" of the runes are explained in the game's manual, take a look.
>>2847741
I almost find it hard to point out another direction to innovate in. Most of my good ideas are just 'mash x with y' or, if I'm really honest with myself, aren't all that new, just underrepresented.
>>2847767
yea but people were obsessed about graphics even in the 2D era
>>2847772
>Didn't previous rpg's have that?
The two world of Ultima games had a journal in form of a journalist that kept notes and who you could ask about your progress.
>>2847767
>Ultima Underworld is the game that made 3D huge.
Wrong, that was Doom.
>>2847773
the biggest development of late has been construction I think
being able to deconstruct the world and build new things/buildings
or alternatively have a vehicle/ship of some sort that you can build to use
is a pretty big change.
>>2847726
continued from >>2847772
> Randomly generated content
Also quite minimally, but I'm absolutely sure the only thing that kept it so constrained were the system requirements already being so high for those days. Things like the items npc's carry, for instance, which you can get through trading or killing them. Their reactions to trade offers also seems pretty randomized.
> Strafing and/or leaning
It has strafing, yes.
> Blocking and/or riposting
It has *chamber* blocking, as in: if the game (rarely and glitchy to be fair) registers your weapon hitting theirs, that mitigates the attacks. This is all part of the primitive "newtonian physics" the game has, which is most notable in projectile fighting. But basically your attack "moves physically" through the game's space, depending on which of 3 types you select.
> Cover usable by players and/or opponents
There's actually polygonal objects in the game, furniture and boulders mostly, which do indeed also interact with the "newtonian physics" model. So yeah.
> Enemies that yield instead of fighting to the death
Enemies will flee. Some NPCs are coded to surrender for plot reasons.
> Environmental hazards and storytelling
Bit strange to but these two in the same category.
Environmental hazards: There's lava, cave-ins, traps, water can cause drowning,
Story telling: again, the game is non linear to an extent. What do you mean a narrator? lol, no, altho theres the character that talks to you in dreams, but that's a stretch. You do discover a lot of what happened to the place you are in and why you were brought there in the first place, which is all sort of resolved in a neat story like fashion, imho.
> Vastly different environments
Compared to how really "vastly different" environments are in later first person rpg's, in terms of game mechanics? Somewhat, I guess...
>>2847726
continued from >>2847805
> Riding and/or usable vehicles
No, OK maybe I can give you a point here, however older (non first person) rpg's had that. The reason why I added that clause is, OK Ultima Underworld also didnt have things like party members that follow you throughout the game etc... But that wouldn't be an innovation.
> Sound AI...
Yes, in fact there's an entire skill devoted to this called "stealth", this mechanic doesn't work very well, but it sort of determines how close you can be to an enemy to be detected while not in it's field of vision.
So yeah, you see, it has all these things, the only real constraint of this game seems to have been the low capacity of the pc's of that time. And the game is really well coded. There's a few nasty bugs in the first editions of the game symptomatic of this. Like if you start hoarding too much stuff in one place the game starts glitching horribly, causing items to transfigure in completely different items, including items you need to finish the game. Obviously this is because of the small range of memory made available to remember items.
>>2847101
You seem to be confused as to what an opinion is. A claim about factual properties that exist is an observation not an opinion.
But how bout the mechanic for decent mouse input and rebindable keys, fast travel, map compass marking, fully transitional indoor and outdoor environments, rechargeable shields and guns? It's clearly doesn't have all of the mechanics, but it was definitely a great work for the era and introduces many mechanics in a solid game even outside it's specific genre.
>>2847783
I guess I wonder if that could work well without eventuallly becoming a management sim.
>>2847745
> That's more a case for UW2 where you have ice caves, an alien planet and a psychedelic trip.
> UW2 has a spell to enchant items.
I'd like to believe UW2 was an occasion to implement a load of stuff they would have implemented in the first game had it been technically feasible.
>>2847836
>decent mouse input
I don't see what is wrong with the mouse input, you can basically do everything in the game with a mouse, without even selecting the action icons like "look", "use", ...
> rebindable keys
hardly an innovation at that point.
>Fast travel
is hardly an innovation, it's just a convenience that they left out because they were aiming for total immersion. Older rpg's have fast travel. Actually, I lie. Moonstones. BOOM.
>fully transitional indoor and outdoor environments
For game mechanic purposes, the entire game world is fully transitional, I mean, OK, a new map loads when using staircases, but come on... Also, the game doesn't take place outdoors. Is that a game mechanical flaw somehow?
> rechargeable shields and guns
Bows, including crossbows, require ammo?
Shields, like any equipment item, can be repaired. By yourself if you have sufficient Repair skill. In UU2 you can magically repair or enchant equipable items using wands and spells.
>>2847856
They also improved the engine. I don't think 1 could have handled moving platforms.
every console zelda game beyond LoZ on NES is god damn boring
>>2847908
OP here, that may very well be it. I heard so many good things about it, I'm about to start playing it. Is it really a first person action rpg tho?
>>2847941
No, it's a meme riddled turn-based RPG. I suppose combat is technically first person, but it's really just enemies on a background. Honestly, I fucking loved it, I also loved Ultima Underworld but I don't know if most UU fans would like Undertale.
>>2847101
Kinda related:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMYso30L9zI
