Outside of both being incredibly influential, which has better gameplay: Quake, or Doom?
http://www.strawpoll.me/6223345
Quake, but barely.
>>2844271
>>2844260
Gameplay is kind of a broad word, but Doom is thrilling while Quake seems very bland to me.
i love both but i think doom has a much better singleplayer whereas quake was all about the multiplayer
tbqh famiglia, both are overrated, quake only got big because of e-sports and for being the first game with decent netcode on dial-up connection, doom was huge because the engine could run on a cheap toaster for the time and only survived due to how large fast and accessible the modding community is
In no way I'm saying I dislike Doom, though, I think the design is brilliant for the limitations they had to work with
>>2844393
What the fuck, how can they be "overrated"? In comparison to what? Other games that were out at the same time? Or modern games? What are you even talking about?
>>2844420
in retrospect they are a bit overrated, yeah I know it doesn't make sense. even back in the day doom was being praised for being the very first 2.5D engine or whatever in the same year when marathon and ultima underworld came out, but of course neither of those two games could run on an average joe's pc build of the time while doom could
>>2844260
Marathon 2 > Descent > Build > XnGine > Quake > Underworld > Jedi > DOOM
Cope with the true ranking of engines.
>>2844393
>overrated
they literally invented and codified the modern FPS genre, how the fuck are they overrated?
>>2844446
>marathon
Spotted the Halo kiddie
>>2844471
see that's exactly what I'm talking about, if it wasn't for carmack the fps genre would have taken off just fine a few years later with marathon or something else because computer cpus were evolving so fast, it was just a matter of time
carmack was visionary for making his product accessible to the poor unwashed masses, not for "inventing shooting at things in the first person", a million games before doom had first person perspective
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk92NGh3mS4
>>2844471
>they literally invented and codified the modern FPS genre, how the fuck are they overrated?
>This is what underage kiddies actually believe
>>2844328
>Quake 2
>good singleplayer game
Good one.
>>2844328
If iD knew why their old games were good then they would still be a relevant developer.
>>2844478
>it's bad because it's associated with HALO
Gas yourself.
>>2844541
Literally no one played Marathon when it came out, only because of Halo does anyone nowadays give a rats ass about Marathon and its convoluted plot.
>>2844557
I played it on my Apple back in the day, friend. Why must everything be a false dichotomy for you?
>>2844260
I'd personally say Doom. I love Quake, but Doom is just so satisfying in ways Quake misses out on due to everything being brown and the weapons being a bit meh.
Favourite console port of Doom btw is the playstation. Bit laggy and such but I thought the music and slightly re-designed levels really worked.
Doom has the better singleplayer, but the multiplayer outside of coop is trash.
>>2844260
Played Doom for the first time last year
Played Quake for the first time last month
Quake was pretty crappy. The gun variety/balance is terrible, and the enemies arent as fun.
Doom is so great I still play it often whenever I get the urge to play it.
>>2844636
What bizarro planet do you come from where DOOM is any kind of an example of balanced weapons? It might as well be called Shotgun Marine.
Quake had the most sublime rocket launcher in the history of FPS, that shit was like a swiss army knife.
>>2844478
>implying Halo is bad
>>2844650
I'm capping this, since it's the absolute best piece of evidence I've ever seen that tripfags are utter cancer.
>>2844661
It's Princess Sevenleaf, notorious for being pure cancer across all English 'Chans. I'm surprised you haven't had the dubious pleasure before now...
>>2844673
Oh I'm familiar.
It's just that this is, bar none, the fucking stupidest thing that I've seen any tripfag say in like five years.
>>2844367
This seems right. Not to say that Quake singleplayer wasn't fun, Doom was just better.
>>2844480
Rails shooters don't count as FPSs
>>2844260
The core basics of Quake are better just thanks to the technology of the time. If it had the same aesthetic choices, enemy variety, weapon satisfaction, and modding community as Doom, it would be GOAT.
>>2844260
Doom is better. I love Quake 1. Quake 2 feels pointless to me because I'd rather play Half-Life.
>>2844328
no one bought quake 3 for single player
>>2844906
i fucking miss bots
especially in battlefield, but that's another story
quake 3 bots and their smack talking in the chat was really special
>>2844847
It had a better modding community than DOOM ever did. This is evidenced by the fact that the best Quake modders used their levels as a portfolio to get actual jobs as designers.
>>2844936
You ever hear about a guy named Tim Willits? Got hired at id software cause of his DOOM maps.
You know Final DOOM? It was originally gonna be free, but id decided to buy it and release it as a full product
DOOM has a better modding community. Even to this day it still gets alot of mods
>>2844951
Only half of Final Doom was originally gonna be free.
>>2844648
>not using the minigun to snipe and clear hordes of zombiemen and imps
>not using the rocketlauncher to kill the tougher enemies or small groups of lower level enemies
>not using the BFG on barons and cacodemons
>only using the shotgun
It's like you didn't even play the game for more than an hour.
>>2844906
You're right but I loved playing against bots in both PC and Dreamcast versions.
>>2844260
Doom for singleplayer
Quake for multiplayer
>>2844539
pretty much everyone from old id except kevin cloud left already though
>>2844328
Holy shit, that's my thumb.
I posted that from The Art of Game Design by Jesse Schell.
However, there's also some information in The Masters of DOOM on regret felt during the development of Quake.
It could have been a much better game, /vr/.
>>2844906
it's not like people had a choice.
>>2844480
Too bad making your game accessible to the mass is thr most essential thing for making a revolutionary game. Nobody gives a shit about games they can't even run.
>>2844446
>XnGine
If going by feature count, maybe.
Too bad every feature is broken in some way.
>>2844906
>implying UT and quake bots weren't my only friends while growing up
>implying i didn't use Q3's bot chat system to have conversations with them
>implying i didn't always inquire about Mynx's dirty underwear
>>2845047
>>2845538
Both make me barf due to aggressive view bobbing, so, tie.
>>2845516
are you me
>>2845547
cl_bob 0
>>2844446
Jedi three notches up, Marathon one notch down, other than that 100%.
>>2845027
isn't tim willits aka captain boring still there
>>2845575
Yep - he was a good mapper but I a total disaster as a designer with his "short bus" attitude.
>>2844478
Halo 4 is actually pretty damn good. I know this is /vr/, but that doesn't mean you have to like ONLY retro games.
Doom
Quake is great - fast action, atmospheric and awesome multiplayer, but Doom is a beast in terms of level design and gun play. Thing still plays great in 2015.
>>2844328
Funny how the creators themselves don't realize how the original Quake single-handedly gave a reason for vertical tri-dimensional level design to exist, and still hasn't been topped in that regard.
>>2846006
>Thing still plays great in 2015.
Only with mods
>>2846379
>mods
You mean with an updated engine. The original levels are great.
>>2844260
Neither. They're tuned for different things? Quake has significantly better multiplayer gameplay. Doom has significantly better singleplayer gameplay. Both are weaker in the other area.
>>2844539
No they wouldn't. Good games are an extremely niche market these days. They'd go out of business if they didn't cut back their spending to match the decreased interest in anything that isn't babbies first anything for a new generation of gamers who literally think gaming started in 2000.
>>2846474
>Good games are an extremely niche market these days.
Wow, you can feel the smug elitism coming from a mile away. Why don't you just fucking kill yourself since it pains you so much to be the only one in the world with good taste? How about I give you a million dollars if you actually show me anyone who ever said that gaming started in 2000 since it's so easy to do?
>>2846501
>being this asspained
calm down dude
>>2844671
>doom baby
I voted Doom just to make you show up.
Man this is tough but I'm going with Quake.
Doom has better weapons and enemy variety, but Quake has the best movement and level design out of any singleplayer FPS
ever made.
Doom because it has atmosphere and sense of progression and is not just an RPG fuckfest.
>>2844260
Doom has big munsters and splosions
Quak is just brown lol
I think Quake plays much better, but Doom's levels and some of the weapons are much better.
>>2847371
quake had far superior atmosphere though.
>That music
>Those textures and skies
>That dynamic lighting
>Those crackling fire sound effects
>Those moaning zombies pinned to the wall
>>2847458
>that brown monochrome
>>2847902
>that rehashed meme
better a cohesive and moody color palette than the clusterfuck that are Doom's visuals tbqh
>>2847902
So you never played any episode past the first one.
>>2847902
>a cohesive color scheme is monochrome
>>2847902
yeah bro look at how colorful this shit is
These games would have benefited a ton if they had Outtrigger's default control scheme on consoles. Prove me wrong.
>>2847982
oh so we're playing the "my screenshot represents the whole game, every single place from every possible angle-game"`?
>>2847982
DOOM II has shitty level design, everyone knows that, faggot. I'm talking about DOOM.
>>2847951
Every episode, but the second one, that is blue, is brown.
>>2848260
So....much....color...im FUCKIGN SHITT*nG
>>2848275
keep sperging, you sound like an art school dropout
>>2848281
[color intensifies]
>>2844393
>doom was huge because the engine could run on a cheap toaster for the time and only survived due to how large fast and accessible the modding community is
Not that those things aren't true, but I think the gameplay is the biggest part of the winning formula.
That's why it's fun even when ported to the 32X, SNES or Jaguar, far from ideal ports, but the core gameplay is still fun, plain and simple.
>>2848294
googling too it seems
>>2848475
let me just open doom and take a screenshot of an area someone has already taken a screenshot of to please a random person on 4chan
Doom is gay, can't even aim or jump without mods.
>>2844493
It was fine.
Not as good as Half-Life, but honestly better than Quake 1.
>>2848480
dude you dont need to please me man what the fuck?!
>>2844648
They don't have to be balanced, just fun.
Super Nailgun and Rocketlauncher was great in Quake, felt amazing, everything else was meh, the shotguns in Quake feel terrible
>>2844661
>placing your focus on tripfags
You're doing this to yourself, just use the built in extension to display all tripfags as regular anons if you hate them so much
>>2844962
Correct, Plutonia was requested from TNT mappers to provide more content for the Final Doom release. Dario and Milo Casali made 16 levels each.
Dario Casali went on to work for Valve
>>2846379
Mods are great, I love Accessories To Murder, but even the shittiest old console ports are fun to play, at the end of the day.
I emulated and played through the 32X version, and aside from the shit music and lack of the third episode + bosses, it was quite fun.
Vanilla quake has better levels levels but worse guns and monsters than Doom, so I'd say quake. It also has amazing multiplayer, so I'd say quake wins out.
If we count custom maps and mods doom wins out by an enormous margin.
>>2848263
Third is green and yellow, fourth is also blue, but also has tons of black and some red, too.
Seriously, the whole brown thing is really an exaggeration.
>>2848507
Why in the fuck would anyone want to read anything a tripfag has to say? Are you retarded?
I feel like with Castle of Wolfenstein, Doom and Quake each game got better and more advanced, they are all good games though.
>>2848681
I've seen many retard tripfags, and many retarded anons.
I pretty much don't care if someone is tripping or not 9 times out of 10, I'll be judging their post, not their persona.
>>2847982
>high gamma
>doom 2
there's your problem
You are literally fucking insane if you think Quake's gameplay is anywhere near as good as Doom's.
>>2844328
That from Masters Of Doom?
>>2844393
>Overrated
Kill yourself you contrarian faggot.
>>2844650
>Halo ISN'T bad
It's like you've never played Halo 2... Or 4... or 5..
Halo is fucking shit anymore. I really wish they'd fucking nuke it already.
Its engine may be less advanced, but Doom fills its space much more fully. It has a limited set of tricks, but deploys everything it's got to maximum effectiveness.
Quake is even more technically advanced than the contemporaneous build engine games, but those present a world that's much more fun. Sure I can jump, but why a three-inch vertical? With the build games, I'm leaping about, blowing up walls, interacting with the world...with Quake I walk into things with a meta-sign on them. Fun seems like an afterthought.
>>2848890
For multiplayer, Quake plays infinitely better than Doom. Deathmatches in Doom are laughably shitty.
>>2848908
https://alephone.lhowon.org/
>>2848924
Thanks m8.
>>2848924
It's a real pity that the actual Aleph One source port is really bad compared to the stuff that Doom players can enjoy. 30fps cap, can't check the menu and change your settings without quitting the game, need to manually edit a script file to set the FOV to something that doesn't invoke instant nausea, and a lot of bone-headed design decisions aimed at the more needless elements of accuracy (ie. limits on number of active enemies) that only go half-way and break cool mods in the process.
It's sad. That series deserves better.
>>2849079
The community around it is trash too. Not that it really matters anymore; I gave that series until the end of Marathon 2 to get good and I still felt nothing at the conclusion of Durandal. If anything, the end of Marathon 1 felt more momentous.
I think not having "boss" monsters really hurt the gameplay.
Quake, more interesting personality. Quake might have it on raw gameplay alone but when you include the character of the games, Doom wins no contest. Quake just doesn't deliver the same quality of experience.
>>2848883
Yeah it's not. Nostalgia goggles on your part is.
For me is Doom. After that was my first real FPS game. I doesn't like Quake because was so dark and not gave me the same feedback like Doom. Doome Dommed me.
>>2848919
This, as much as I love Doom (and I love it dearly), deathmatch is nothing but supershotgun jousting
>>2849846
No, it's also rocket spamming corridors, chaingunning at distance and BFG walling.
>>2849521
What's that Star Wars game in the far left?
>>2851204
>Doesn't recognize Dark Forces.
Jesus fuck there really are kids on here.
Blake Stone
>>2851242
shitpost more angry virgin
>>2851285
Kek, project more neckbearded kid.
>>2851290
reply to this post
>>2845047
>It could have been a much better game, /vr/.
John Romero recently stated that he thought Darksiders would have been the game he came up with had he gotten the chance to make Quake "right". Considering how shitty I find Darksiders to be, I'd rather have my Doomclone Quake anyday.
>>2849521
>>2848485
Quake II was pretty half-assed with half-assed missions, people remember mostly for the multiplayer, Quake I was pretty basic, but that's why it worked.
>>2844328
>with Quake III, we're back to technology demo again.
Not true.
The map design, the weapon balance, the movement system. That was not part of a 'technology demo'. That was made to be played multiplayer, and played seriously.
Quake 3's design is all but peerless in this regard, and is to this day a masterclass that any game designer looking to make anything multiplayer should study as a matter of course.
>>2844260
doom kicked off the fps genre for good, quake had admittedly better atmosphere.
i still feel doom is a bit colorful and cartoonish at times, even though i enjoy it a lot more than quake nowadays.
but in terms of atmosphere and sound design, i vastly prefer quake.
>Singleplayer
Doom
>Multiplayer
Quake
This is the only right answer
>>2845516
this is so cute
>>2844260
Doom had better singleplayer.
Quake had better multiplayer.
>>2849521
Game on top right?
Didn't see a video game until i was 8 when the ps2 came out pls don't judge me for not knowing
>>2851656
Agreed. High level competitive quake is basically the pinnacle high water mark of fps gameplay and anyone who doesn't see that is retarded.
>>2853539
>Ahhh you think mainstream is your ally? You merely adopted the popular games. I was born in it, molded by it.
>Didn't see a video game until i was 8 when the ps2 came out
>by then it was nothing to me but casual.
Top right is Hexen, the sequel to the Heretic series. It's basically D&Dish doom with three classes, fighter, cleric and wizard.
>>2844393
quake is still big in eSports, having decent prizes despite the incredibly low number of players in Quake Live somehow. im hoping theres a new popular arena-shooter someday, maybe with more team-based mechanics like Team Fortress 2, But... there are a few new arena-shooters and most of them are DoA and play mostly just like Quake Live (see Reflex)
>>2854059
bless you anon.
but how do we stop all this youngsters from buying the same pseudo-realistic shooters that are so advanced in graphics yet so bland and slow in gameplay?
>>2854786
>im hoping theres a new popular arena-shooter someday
UT4 soon.
I'm mad that Steam made Quake Live, a free game, into a game you have to pay.
>>2854870
Steam didn't. There is a company that owns Quake Live known as Zenimax Media (aka Bethesda)
They let previous steam owners to keep it tho so thats pretty neat.
>>2844260
Doom by a little
I hated how in Quake the weaker enemies were told to fuck off after a level or two in an episode. Doom never stopped using the shit enemies and found ways to make them useful to the level design.
>>2844636
How have you only just played these two games?
Why not both?
>>2854117
Hahaha I guess I did sound like that. Thanks man.
>>2854991
I'm not him, but I've only just played them this year.
I used to get motion sick from FPSs so I just never played them. But recently I read Masters of Doom and just had to give it a try and found it didn't affect me. So just this year I had my first go at Doom, Doom II, Duke, Dark Forces, Blood and Quake.
Would say Doom but Quake has a much better engine.
>>2846376
There was that one secret(?) level in quake with wierd lack of gravity and tons of bouncy blowing shit up on multiple levels, wasn't there?
>>2855007
>>2849079
The problem is the only people who cared enough to make a source port were super purist spergs wanting a game that could be played outside from the old oldass mac os, doom has a following of just the general gaming community, it's had a LOT more love and openness put into it
>>2851242
im sorry, but i cant help but just state that not everyone who grew up/lived in the era all these games came out meant they played every single one, some people only bought doom or quake or blood or duke or unreal or dark forces, but that did not guarentee the also bought shadow warrior and powerslave and hexen and heretic and etc etc etc
there were a LOT of games back then, and each one cost money
>>2855632
Ziggurat Vertigo?
Best secret level ever.
>>2855786
>and each one cost money
Shareware you nigger.
But yeah, also
>cost money
Piracy or sharing games was also a thing back then. I'm fairly poor but I still managed to basically play an overwhelming majority of them. I'd grant maybe someone didn't play FPS games because it's not their thing. I played a shit ton of games, but FPS is kind of my thing so as far as that genre goes, there's a significant chance of me having played or at least seen most of it. Other genres less so. All the ones in the image are pretty mainstream as far as they go, none of them are for example Radiaki, Terminator Rampage, or Isle of the Dead. I'd understand that.
Doom had better gameplay and balance, but Quake fired my imagination up more.
Blood>Quake>Doom
>>2854786
>maybe with more team-based mechanics like Team Fortress 2
fuck no. those games attract retards, yet require teamwork and cooperation. doesnt that get old?
>>2844906
I bought UT2004 and I had a lot of fun playing the career campaign. Betting money, treating injuries, drafting players.
>>2845516
>Unfeel Tournament
What would quake have been like if the iD team weren't burnt out after designing the engine, and decided to drop in doom weapons and gameplay in order to get the game finished, instead of sticking with their idea of a more RPG-like 3rd person game with NPCs?
Also you just can't compete with 3D level design. sorry doom. Its unfair to compare one game to its successor, like comparing a Tiger to a Panzer IV; both excellent tanks, just in different classes.
Both are sensational games, I remember playing shareware doom from floppy disks, renting a brand new (at the time) sega saturn and playing Doom .
I bought quake when it first came out, me and my bro used to play it every time we went to our grandparents house after school. So many great memories.
As someone who loves sound, quakes music and atmosphere is the dealbreaker. real CD audio instead of MIDI, supplied by no less that trent reznor-inspired-by-coil. One of the all time best game soundtracks in my opinion. Doom doesn't even rank top 10 in that regard, sorry, thrash metal pseudo-covers on MIDI just doesn't cut it, some ok music by mr prince, but quake has something unique, and I feel it really gelled with the aesthetic of the game to make what doom lacked: a fully immersive experience.
>>2844648
Quake had the funniest grenade launcher ever
>>2860148
>ecided to drop in doom weapons and gameplay in order to get the game finished, instead of sticking with their idea of a more RPG-like 3rd person game with NPCs?
Honestly? Probably worse than we'd like to think. I'm kind of almost glad they didn't. They managed to have a really good game. Not that I wouldn't give it a whirl but if they did it, we'd have lost the two best FPS games for multiplayer ever released. I'd take it as an aside, but I'd hate to give up Quakeworld or Q3 for it. Doom 1/2 and those two games are the only games specifically guaranteed to never leave my hard drive ever.
>>2860148
>instead of MIDI,
I hope you meant because MIDI is non-standardized therefore the experience differs from machine to machine. MOD or IT etc would have been far better in that respect. But MIDI is fine, it doesn't sound like shit. Though honestly Quake's soundtrack was sort of ill fitting once you weren't bad at the game. Which means it loses it's impact after it's first playthrough. It's nice enough for creepy ambient, but for Quake it's a bit lacking.
>>2844393
Mentally retarded opinion right here. Doom was nothing like anything, including Wolfenstein, at the time, and the soundtrack is amazing. The level design is clever, and shows strong detail-oriented thought on behalf of the designers.
Quake was great for similar reasons, but the level design, despite being interesting to look at and having some good ideas, was boring. Also the protagonist was overpowered constantly, so whenever you'd be trapped into a one on one with something crazy, you'd dominate.
>>2860426
>MIDI is fine, it doesn't sound like shit.
it does compared to CD audio, sorry buddy.
Quakes soundtrack was the gelling factor that made the whole thing work imo. Excellent sound design.
Really a game should be judged on the first play through. Everything else is revisiting, and not the original experience.
>>2860917
>it does compared to CD audio, sorry buddy.
Of course not, it doesn't sound like anything. It's midi. If you don't understand why that is, you should look up what midi actually is instead of what you mistakenly think it is.
>>2851656
>>2844328
Yeah, I ended up playing more UT than Quake 3 and even I was wondering what exactly they were getting at with this bullshit. They were probably trying to say it was incomplete because it was multiplayer only. Calling the first Quake a tech demo is blasphemous. Sure it might not be as cinematic or character driven as Half-Life but it wasn't meant to be, that doesn't take away from what a fantastic game it was for it's time. Revisionist history at it's finest, right here.
>>2861913
I know exactly what MIDI is. More specifically your computers soundcard or whatever you're using to interpret the general MIDI data doom is sending out doesn't compare to pre recorded and mastered CD Audio. Let alone the quality of Reznor's work.
No need to be fatuous, you know what I meant.
3d Levels > 2d Levels
pre recorded music > MiDI data
quake could have been much more, but its simply the next step from doom. Anyone who think its a "worse" game than doom is just fangirling.
Anyone else remember how you could just pick up a free Quake shareware CD from EB and use a downloaded crack file on the shareware CD to unlock the full game? It was the pinnacle of childhood poorfag piracy at the time. You never used to get the cd audio and fmv with your pirated games back in the early 90's.
>>2862454
>Anyone else remember how you could just pick up a free Quake shareware CD from EB and use a downloaded crack file on the shareware CD to unlock the full game?
How was that possible? Did the pak files contain the whole game?
>>2855676
Quoom?
Duake?
>>2844446
Oh hai hipster.
>>2844393
>quake only got big because of e-sports and for being the first game with decent netcode on dial-up connection
That's pretty fucking big "only" here, let alone the great singleplayer maps.
>doom only survived due to how large fast and accessible the modding community is
That's another pretty fucking big "only".
>>2862638
They where trying a new type of distribution aiming to give some form of instant gratification in an age of dial up modems I guess. Needless to say it was probably a bad economic decision for them but I doubt it hurt their sales much.
>>2862665
>Without id stuff means that this CD does not have a folder named IDSTUFF on it. The id stuff folder contains full version games that can be unlocked with a purchased code.
https://archive.org/details/QuakeSWCDNID
Voted Tie
Both games have great gameplay and level design, both have paved the way for game modding.
I like Doom for gameplay, I just love running around feeling like a god destroying everything berserk style. Its really fun to play even today.
Although Doom has more polished gameplay Quake has much better atmosphere and music, I just love Lovecraft and Quake is the only action game(there are some great point and click games but damn, FPS action genre? And its such an old game too) I know that captures lovecraftian atmosphere perfectly.
Also the atmosphere is the biggest difference between two games. In doom you feel like you are indestructable, you take on giant demons with your guns feeling fearless, you don't use the strongest weps all the time, only on rare monsters. While in Quake monsters are much stronger, have more health you have to use rocket launcher all the time. The whole environment is unfriendly to you, monsters are more dangerous, there are more traps.
My favourite example is how sometimes you MUST take damage to progress through the game, you must fall into a pit and take fall damage to go to the next level, it perfectly shows that world of Quake is much more dark and unfriendly than Doom's.
>>2862914
>I just love Lovecraft and Quake is the only action game(there are some great point and click games but damn, FPS action genre?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_Cthulhu:_Dark_Corners_of_the_Earth
>>2844260
>Doom
Space marine assaigned to a new outpost experimenting with teleporters when they accidentally open a doorway to hell. The the base is attacked, overruned and all the marines stationed there are zombified grunts trying to kill you. You go into hell, fight monsters, all this to prevent an invasion.
>Quake
Marine assaigned to a new outpost experimenting with teleporters when they accidentally open a doorway to a hellish dimension. The the base is attacked, overruned and all the marines stationed there are zombified grunts trying to kill you. You go into hellish dimension, kill monsters, all this to prevent an invasion.
>>2865557
>Marine assaigned to a new outpost experimenting with teleporters when they accidentally open a doorway to a hellish dimension. The the base is attacked, overruned and all the marines stationed there are zombified grunts trying to kill you. You go into hellish dimension, kill monsters, all this to prevent an invasion.
Sounds like Half-Life.
>>2844260
>people picking doom
quake is vastely superior in ever way. even today it shines above the modern FPSers. Doom feels dated.
Why is Quake II generally seen as inferior to the first? I enjoyed the hub system that rewarded exploration (even though it lead to more back tracking) and lots of cool details at the time like enemies trying to shoot you in their death throes.
>>2848063
> default
Dude i have to go all the way to c3 or something to make it playable with a controller. Keyboard and mouse are fine.
>>2844260
I like the weapon and level design of Quake better, but Doom is faster-paced and more exciting. Overall I think they're both great for different reasons.
>>2865563
Because it's vastly inferior we've already been over this just stop posting m8
>>2865563
I really liked quake 2. Felt very polished, but a bit too easy and acrade-y
The atmosphere was the big drawback in quake to. shit atmosphere, shit music, no real feel of story or progress, just mindless killing for a couple of hours.
>>2865670
I'm always quick to throw out my love for Q2 over the first.
largely because I love the Strogg. Their sound and behavior design, how they look and fit into the setting. They're fun. A great cast of enemies.
>>2844650
>console shooter
>good
>>2860148
>vulgar display of midi power
I believe it's referred to as groove metal, it certainly isn't thrash
>>2862409
>No need to be fatuous, you know what I meant.
I do, you're wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRXpcYGIucw
>>2867445
feel free to extrapolate on how I'm wrong.
unrelated, but the only MIDI in that video is the loop control. pretty poor piece of music too.
>>2867469
>only midi in that video
>literally a demonstration of a fucking midi controller
Fuckin derp.
>>2867469
Also, here have some more midi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH_w7AW7jPU
>>2867469
Have some more midi
https://youtu.be/PnGU_tSy0UM?list=PL26CA3BB49AC80070
Same sound generator - Doom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CdSsH8k4cY
And yeah you'd say, that sounds flat still. That's not a midi issue, lack of expressiveness is pretty much purely a sequencing issue. Not a protocol issue. That's because they didn't tweak the sound perfectly and their input was more of a midi keyboard rather than something more dynamic like a wind controller or using a ribbon controller etc... MIDI sounds exactly like live music because it is ALSO live music when it's used live and the range of tonality is only depending on what you're putting the midi into, not midi itself. Likewise you can play all your favorite DOS games using whatever sound generators you want you don't even technically have to stick with GM standard if you don't want too.
>>2867474
Controllers aren't actually what I'm arguing about here, I'm arguing that PC Sound cards playing MIDI data provide an inferior soundtrack compared to CD Audio. Feel free to misinterpret my viewpoint and continue to post MIDI controllers if you like, but its not really relevant to my argument.
The controller in >>2867445 isn't MIDI, it says right there in the description
> Expert Sleepers ES-3 module which converts the data from the Eigenharp over digital ADAT audio to Direct Current.
It then says
>The looping is done through Mobius and is controlled through a Rig Kontrol USB MIDI footpedal.
Hence why I said the only MIDI in that video is the looping control.
>>2867498
We're talking about the general soundcard in most computers running Doom in the 90s. Not Wind-controlers. The sounds aren't great compared to CD Audio.
The fact you said "range of tonality" seems to imply you dont really know what you're talking about. Tonality has nothing to do with MIDI, and refers to the key a piece of music is in.
Even the best sequenced song in MIDI data with the greatest sound patches, all with nice reverb and effects still wouldn't compare to a professionally mixed and mastered recording.
>>2867502
>We're talking about the general soundcard in most computers running Doom in the 90s
What is "most computers"? Why are you trying this hard to move the goalposts, are you one of those turbolosers who just HAS to be right about everything?
Doom was designed specifically with the Roland SC-55 in mind. If you haven't heard Doom's music on an SC-55, you haven't heard Doom's music.
>>2867502
>We're talking about the general soundcard in most computers running Doom in the 90s. Not Wind-controlers.
First of all, no, we're talking about MIDI. Whether that be a shitstick FM card or a SC-55 or whatever you hook out to midi. Secondly, yes we are talking about wind controllers and guitar controllers and keyboard controllers etc... because those are sequencing devices - they output midi. That means when you capture your midi output from them and play them on even the shittier cards you still get far more expressive music and when you play them on good modules you get great sound and great expression on a track. midi doesn't give a fuck.
Also let me rephrase that better, the range of timbre, fixed, now fuck off.
>Even the best sequenced song in MIDI data with the greatest sound patches
Actually, it does, in fact you just admitted it. What the fuck do you think real professional audio is made with? One point was oh it doesn't compare to reznors standard redbook faire... except midi is used in his studio for producing that music straight up digital audio and midi controller or nowadays also alternative (or even both) control protocols with better timing and bandwidth are mixed together. What you're hearing is often the result of using the midi protocols - even often down to the mixing and mastering using midi for level control protocols.
Hence the point, midi doesn't have 'a sound' it sounds exactly like anything you define it to play with device you set it up to use.
>>2867506
Lets refer to my original post (>>2860148)
>As someone who loves sound, quakes music and atmosphere is the dealbreaker. real CD audio instead of MIDI
Those were my original goalposts. Did you have a Roland DC-55 in your computer as a 90s gamer?
I know mine was just a standard sound blaster, same with all my friends. I'm not enough of a nerd to know the specific chip they used to interpret MIDI data, but it didn't compare to CD Audio.
>>2867525
>Those were my original goalposts.
And that's why he said you moved them. Because you did.
You're statement is not a complaint about low quality of particular soundcard or set of cards, but on the actual protocol and nothing but when good sequencing midi with a good sound generator sounds great and depending on the instrument perfect even.
>>2867525
Also, it doesn't matter whether or not it was in the 90s. It still exists today. We're on a board that still plays it. It's relevancy has not changed in that respect. It still does use midi in normal doom and various ports and we still manage with that on our systems, either with modules, virtual modules, synths, sound fonts, etc...
>>2867537
>You're statement
Is english not your first language? its ok.
My argument is entirely about the low quality of average soundcards compared to CD audio. How hard is that to understand?
Like I said, even the best GMIDI data requires careful attention from an musician or synth tech to make sound good. A CD just plays. It plays the same perfectly-mixed and mastered recording each time. This just provides a better product. No one buys CDs full of pure MIDI data. Games are one of the few places outside the musicians production studio where MIDI is put to use for the general public.
>>2867541
>How hard is that to understand?
Not at all, your argument is also a moving goalpost. It's pretty fucking simple, so not sure why you're saying it's not and validating that it is.
>>2867525
>Did you have a Roland DC-55 in your computer as a 90s gamer?
Yes.
>I know mine was just a standard sound blaster, same with all my friends
Sounds like a personal problem.
Bobby Prince makes great music. It's not his fault if your computer is a piece of garbage.
>>2867540
Surely we're comparing the originals though right? not the modded up, extended versions we play today.
Playing the latest mods and version of Quake and Doom would give an entirely different experience to the originals. I dont think it would be fair to compare them, as the different here lies in the modding community and the work they've done, instead of the original games.
>>2867547
The general public had average sound blaster tier chips. Of course some hard core nerds had custom sound cards, but we can discount that small minority.
MIDI still doesn't provide as good an end result as CD Audio. I'm sure Mr Prince would have loved to use Actual recordings on doom, but for some reason he was left to work with only GMIDI.
Also If he makes such great music why does he do so many covers of mediocre metal songs?
Reznor and Prince are very different, and I dont really want to rate them against each other, but I believe the quake soundtrack was Reznor's best work, and made the game into something great. Something that "spooky" MIDI bends with lots of vibrato could never capture.
>>2867548
>Surely we're comparing the originals though right? not the modded up, extended versions we play today.
We're not comparing any of them. We're discussing "sorry, thrash metal pseudo-covers on MIDI just doesn't cut it"
Whichever port or software is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Two things are required for this discussion, you're playing doom and it's somehow using 'thrash metal pseudo-covers via midi' in comparison to straight up digital audio recordings.
>>2867554
metal pseudo-covers on MIDI just dont cut it compared to CD Audio. How can you disagree?
I suppose I am on /vr/ after all. If anyone was going to be contrarian about things like audio quality, its going to be here.
>>2867551
>but I believe the quake soundtrack was Reznor's best work
You're actually a fucking retard.
He did an okay job fitting the general atmosphere even though it's largely forgettable and honestly you don't even love much not having it on at all. But yeah, you must have never actually listened to any Trent Reznor's music to make a statement that fucking stupid.
>>2867554
I dunno, it's pretty spoopy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jqsi-E5wr-c
>>2867558
Race car driving techniques just don't compare to electric cars. How can you disagree?
That's how.
>contrarian
Good. Because that's a good word and it's initial usage implied also being correct. Contrarian is not a fucking perjorative term it and when you use it as such the only thing you're communicating is that you're floor is filthy from being supremely ass blasted.
>>2867561
I wouldn't say something is someones best work without listening to their entire discography multiple times. TDS was one of my favorite albums for a while there.
Its simply my opinion that the soundtrack is his best work, because I dont really think much of him as a musician. Sure he can write angsty songs and is an excellent producer, but the atmospheres created in the Quake soundtrack are unique, and more in line with the music I enjoy. You dont have to agree with me, and many NIN fans wouldn't.
Compared to guys like Bach or Tristan Murail, Reznor is a small fry. But his soundtrack helped make Quake into a real experience.
>>2844260
it's quake, doom's better known today so that's what the underaged memesters who've never played either are voting for
>>2867565
>Race car driving techniques just don't compare to electric cars
So you think MIDI is only a technique? Its a language for a game to tell a soundcard what to play.
A better language is real audio, where the signal is exactly the same each time, and doesn't depend on your soundcard or MIDI device.
>>2867562
This proves my point. Cheesy guitar samples, cheesy choir. Cheesy synth toms.
Compare this to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAgZ5XWXiMA
And the winner in overall sound quality, composition and spookiness is clear.
>>2867596
I always loved this track a lot. Reminds me of the first time I dropped Vicodin.
Unfortunately, all this hair-splitting over sound cards is ignoring one crucial detail; even if you have the best midi synthesizer in the world, cheesy 90's synth metal is still going to sound like cheesy 90's synth metal. If you don't like cheesy 90's synth metal, then a soundcard probably isn't going to make or break your enjoyment of it.
Honestly sometimes I think this board should be called
>/vr/ - Doom & Umihara Kawase
for all the blind fanaticism those series inspire.
i fucking love bhopping, but doom takes it for me as ive had way more fun with it
>>2867596
>This proves my point.
No it doesn't.
>>2867579
I'll be honest, I have no fucking idea what you're even saying here.
>>2868207
>it's quake, doom's better known today so that's what the underaged memesters who've never played either are voting for
For reasons left unstated, Quake has superior gameplay. However, Doom is better remembered in this modern age. Consequently many people are voting for it simply out of recognition of its legendary status, despite the fact that they are too young to have played either game when they came out. This accounts for the wide margin by which Doom is winning the poll. It's probable that these individuals enjoy memes.
>>2868854
Doom is better remembered because it's just more fun.
Which is why it's winning.
>>2868854
People can play games even years after were released, that's why we have this board, besides, some people born after Quake was released are old enough to post here.
>>2868854
Well you're posting this in a forum that has attracted dozens of new DOOM players thanks to /doom/, it's a bit much to ask for a balanced sample from /vr/.
>>2844446
Ranking *engines*? Descent beats Marathon handily, sorry. Even Infinity, even AlephOne.
Ranking the games is another matter.
>>2868980
But isn't that, in itself, telling? /doom/ says they're open to talking about Quake, but nobody really wants to.
>>2868997
That's the fine print that let them have a general in the first place back when mods gave a shit about shutting down generals. They excused it by saying "It's NOT a DOOM thread, it's an FPS thread, nobody HAS to talk about DOOM, we just like to!"
But trust me, when your OP is like four paragraphs, updated almost daily, about the state of DOOM news and mods and the last line is basically "Oh uh also other FPS I guess," you have a DOOM thread.
>>2869010
>one has a vibrant, enthusiastic ongoing community
>the other is Quake
>>2869019
>>2869048
The trouble with Quake is that the people still playing it are so good it's very hard for beginners to get into the game. Even if you're reasonably good at other FPSs you'll lose against people who've been playing for nearly two decades.
Doom is mostly played for the single player, so it doesn't have this problem.
>>2869010
Nobody's forced to talk about Doom, and nobody's stopping you from talking about Quake. Quake just isn't that popular. There isn't some conspiracy by Doom fans to exclude Quake fans; it's just that there aren't a lot of Quake fans because the game is stale and boring.
I've started Quake threads before. They usually only get a few replies. I've tried hosting Quake servers and nobody joins them. Face it: Nobody likes Quake.
>>2868135
>Cheesy 2-and-a-half minute MIDI piece, with cheesy guitar sounds and SNES-tier choir
vs
>8 minute atmospheric masterpiece with live recorded whispering, a well thought out layout leading to real guitar-driven crescendo
This is why Quake is an atmospheric experience, and Doom is a fast-paced shoot em up. The music really reflects the character of each game. Doom is all about thrashing through maps at breakneck speed and killing everything in sight.
Quake is about soaking up the ambiance and and trying not to die while navigating some lovecraftian mazes
>>2869216
Your post has nothing to do with mine.
Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpiNDxssUL0
>>2869217
you can speedrun even the most atmospheric games. Doesn't really prove anything.
Quakes soundtrack is still objectively superior to Dooms.
>>2869234
No.
>>2869243
>GMIDI metal covers
>Better than actual recordings of original music, custom made for the game
Can't say I agree
Quake 2 soundtrack > then all
>>2869216
Quake is pretty much what DOOM 1/2 in 3D would be like.
>>2849079
>It's a real pity that the actual Aleph One source port is really bad compared to the stuff that Doom players can enjoy.
To be fair, Doom's source was available much longer than Marathon 2's.
>>2849095
>The community around it is trash too.
This is 100% on point. Except where they have overlap with the Doom community, the core of the Marathon faggots are ultra purist retards with a whole flair of artfag David Cage tier retardation.
Best exhibit of this can be seen in Marathon:Resurrection's forums when asking about crosshairs...
>>2844260
Doom
>>2844446
Marathon had garbage map design, a retarded network model, and pants-on-head physics.
>>2869290
sadly.
If only iD hadn't just dropped in doom-style gameplay and weapons after being burnt out designing the engine. It could have been a totally different game, but they held a meeting and decided just to get that damn thing finished, and that meant scrapping all their ideas for original gameplay (RPG elements, 3rd person, NPCs, etc)
Quake feels totally different to doom, and it the superior atmosphere and music that make it so.
Running around a 2D collection of walls with sprites that always face you to MIDI metal, compared to a fully 3D game with dynamic lighting and a custom ambient soundtrack. The only similarity is the gameplay of key hunts and endless killing. The aesthetics of the two games couldn't be more different.
>>2869512
>and that meant scrapping all their ideas for original gameplay (RPG elements, 3rd person, NPCs, etc)
While I would not mind playing that also, I'm glad they didn't.
> The only similarity is the gameplay of key hunts and endless killing. The aesthetics of the two games couldn't be more different.
Except for the story being roughly mirrored, the level design and verticality in Doom giving it a 3D feel unlike say Wf3D where your 2D wall collection statement would be more appropriate, emphasis on portals, some of the enemies being similar enough (pinkies/fiends), (basic grunts/zombiemen that act in extremely similar fashion), (cacodemon, scrag). Both have a healthy dose of spooky light play and their own spooky tracks, both have significant amounts of lava and level trap designs, Similar weapon sets - shotgun, SSG, rocket launcher, (nail gun/plasma gun in mechanics). Both games are gritty looking. They aren't identical clearly, but yeah they COULD be more different, very different because they're actually pretty similar.
Also coincidentally playing Doom with a collection of 3D walls feels identical and the sprites that always face you can be set to not always face you or even to 3D models, it really doesn't change the feel of the game as much as you make it out.
>>2869729
>The aesthetics of the two games couldn't be more different.
I stand by my statement.
Killing demons at breakneck speed to MIDI metal is very different to navigating lovecraftian mazes with atmospheric ambient music.
>>2870947
I love both games and I agree with this statement. I prefer Quake's atmosphere since it's a little more subtle about its approach to what makes it scary.
>/stupid questions post/
1. Using mouse/wasd keys in vanilla Doom under pure DOS, ok or heresy?
2. If using mouse turning in Doom/Quake, is it avoidable for the Y-axis of the mouse to move the player forward/back (i.e. just use the X-axis of the mouse for turning and ignore any Y-axis input)? It's annoying that the player while mouse-turning also gets pushed back/forward a bit due to collateral Y-axis movement.
3. In the default Quake key config, the 3rd mouse button is used to switch to mouse look. However, it seems quite a challenge to get the third mouse button to work under DOS in the first place - the standard Microsoft mouse.sys/mouse.com driver from back in the day doesn't seem to enable it (at least for a mouse which has a pressable wheel acting as the 3rd button). How did one enable the 3rd mouse button back in the day with a standard driver? (Using cutemouse which supposedly makes it easy feels like a cheat as it wasn't available in the DOS days.)
>>2870998
1. Mouse support was in from the start, don't let anyone tell you it wasn't. It was totally fucked up for anyone using a PS/2 mouse (which were common) so that's where the myth that mouse support as a whole was patched in later - version 1.6 fixed PS/2 mice.
2. This isn't an issue with Quake as it was one of the first FPS with "true" mouselook, but I recall turning the y-axis sensitivity to 0 and that seemed to solve that particular issue in DOOM.
3. Switching on mouselook is a standard menu option, you don't need a third mouse button. Alternatively, you can type +mlook in the console. Alternatively alternatively you can bind mouselook to a different key if for some bizarre reason you need to toggle it on the fly.
>>2871020
>but I recall turning the y-axis sensitivity to 0 and that seemed to solve that particular issue in DOOM.
There is no y-axis sensitivity. There's just sensitivity for mouse. For Doom 1 and Doom 2.
For quake also you can put +mlook in a config file that autoexecutes when quake starts that does +mlook.
>>2871020
>Mouse support was in from the start, don't let anyone tell you it wasn't
Yea, it was there in the setup, but wasn't enabled by default, so there seems to be a consensus that "the proper way" for Doom1/2 is arrow keys + space/ctrl/alt/shift/etc.
>It was totally fucked up for anyone using a PS/2 mouse (which were common)
Weren't serial mice still the most common in the mid 90s?
>for some bizarre reason you need to toggle it on the fly
That's how it's configured by default, isn't it? Default configs mostly seem to be associated with "as intended" (for a lack of a better word), same with the default lack of mouse usage in Doom making many think playing mouseless is "as intended".
(The mystery of enabling the third mouse button under DOS is, of course, only very indirectly related to the thread's topic, but if anyone remebers how to do it for a PS/2 mouse with a standard driver from the 90s (it must have been possible if Quake had the third mouse button preconfigured), that'd be great, thanks.)
>>2871076
>There is no y-axis sensitivity
Don't recall that either, hence the question. Bummer if it can't be disabled, it sure is annoying for the player to involuntarily slide forwards/backwards while turning around with the mouse.
>>2871106
>Weren't serial mice still the most common in the mid 90s?
It was pretty much a toss up - a lot of people who already owned computers *probably* had PS/2, and those who would have bought computers specifically to play DOOM and other games *probably* would have had serial. It's was a transitional period.
>That's how it's configured by default, isn't it?
Again, the mouselook option was a toggle that you set to either yes or no in the options menu. I'm pretty sure nobody really expected that players would be vacillating between control schemes while trying to shoot ogres. Quake was always a highly customizable experience via the console - the default movement keys weren't even WASD, and depending on whether or not you pirated a copy, it was entirely possible your idea of a "default" setup was actually some other guy's personal bindings. Why are you so determined to maintain a toggleable mouselook button - I'm seriously having a hard time understanding what you're trying to do here, do you actually WANT to do this stupid thing? For the record I had a three-button mouse back in the Quake days and it was bound to impulse 7 because everyone needs rocket launchers always, and I personally never had any problems binding anything to it, so if the question is "Could third mouse buttons be recognized in DOS?" then the answer is "Yes, why wouldn't they? (assuming DOS version 5.0 or later)"
>Yea, it was there in the setup, but wasn't enabled by default
>same with the default lack of mouse usage in Doom
You have to specifically say "Keyboard only" in the controls options menu when you install the game, it is NOT the default control scheme, it is specifically the third option after KB+M and the hilariously stupid KB+Joystick option. KB+M's keyboard default bindings still operated exactly the same as KB only.
>>2871173
>if the question is "Could third mouse buttons be recognized in DOS?" then the answer is "Yes, why wouldn't they? (assuming DOS version 5.0 or later)"
DOS version is 6.22. Maybe the mouse driver is too old or something, it's the Microsoft driver v8.20 loaded from CONFIG.SYS (i.e. the mouse.sys file).
Anyway I found the DoomFAQ say this:
>[19-1-1]: Why does my mouse start moving itself during play?
>It is recommended that you upgrade to DOOM v1.666 to fix this problem.
>Older mouse drivers cause a problem with DOOM v1.2. Make sure you are using Microsoft mouse drivers v9.x instead of v8.x. Logitech mouse drivers v6.x work as well.
Maybe using a newer MS driver or a Logitech one will make the third button work, will try to test this later.
As for the defaults actually being such, if you delete the main config file Quake will recreate it with defaults and I seem to recall those defaults have mouslook set to toggle via either backslash or the 3rd mouse button. There I found the third mouse button (actualy a clickable wheel) did nothing and I wanted to resolve the apparently underlying issue of the 3rd mouse button not working.)
>it is NOT the default control scheme, it is specifically the third option after KB+M
I don't remember the Doom setup utility anymore, but if it's as you say, then I'm not sure why most people seemed to play mouseless. Maybe it was said PS/2 mouse issues they somehow wouldn't get around, dunno.
>>2871106
>Bummer if it can't be disabled, it sure is annoying for the player to involuntarily slide forwards/backwards while turning around with the mouse.
Well if you're using dosbox you can probably rig up a mouse driver that undoes it, but yeah it's annoying but you get used to controlling it so you don't slip too much.
>Weren't serial mice still the most common in the mid 90s?
Were they? I remember seeing like three. I mean maybe in old businesses, that's where I almost exclusively saw serial mice coming from, getting binned from old businesses or corporations cleaning shit out. It was rare as fuck to see anyone's home with a PS2 mouse and PS2 ports were basically standard on every home machine at in the 90s for the most part. I can see businesses actually having more serial mice than home users during the 90s honestly. It's why LCDs picked up in this era despite being mostly garbage for actual displays, because businesses swapped that shit out right quick for electricity savings and ease of moving. Most businesses don't need something that looks good, but they want something cheap and easy to deal with.
Wheel mice took a while to get in, there were two button PS/2 mice readily available for way longer than there should have been even with three button mice already being a thing. I can't say I remember specifically how to set up a PS/2 third button in DOS.
>so there seems to be a consensus that "the proper way"
That's also bullshit. Yeah it's the default but there is no "proper way" and people were rocking the mouse and keyboard way early in Doom, check out demos of some of the deathmatches with chocolate doom and shit. Some of them from as early as 1994-1995 were using mice to aim. There's no reason not to be using it now either. Honestly even games that didn't support modern controls can go fuck themselves as well, no reason a person shouldn't be using better controls for their games.
>>2871198
>then I'm not sure why most people seemed to play mouseless.
Because it was awkward and a lot of people didn't switch off arrows which was awkward as well. People were used to keyboard for other games as well and they could get by with keyboard.
Multiplayer is what accelerated mouse usage faster than anything else. Doom had more singleplayer people than multiplayer, though it did kick up a huge multiplayer scene as well.
>>2871198
>There I found the third mouse button (actualy a clickable wheel)
Found your problem. Try binding to mwheelup/down, clickable mousewheel as button3 has always been weird.
>>2871214
That's odd. After all it's a microswitch like any other, and doesn't really have much to do with the wheel itself other than the fact that it's mechanically triggered by pressing down the wheel. Anyway I will try out some other dirivers later and see if I can get it to work somehow.
>Well if you're using dosbox
Nah, it's an physical old Pentium II system serving as a retro rig.
Anyway thanks a lot to everyone who answered for your tips, suggestions and explanations, much appreciated.
>>2844951
Tim Willits is the only guy still at id from the good ol' days and he thinks Quake is more influential than DOOM.
>love quake
>hate multiplayer games
fuck my life
>>2871106
>so there seems to be a consensus that "the proper way" for Doom1/2 is arrow keys + space/ctrl/alt/shift/etc.
Romero played Wolf/Doom/Quake with mouse and keyboard
Carmack played Wolf/Doom/Quake with mouse and keyboard
Everyone on iD played Wolf/Doom/Quake with mouse and keyboard, the games were literally designed with this in mind, keyboard only was always a concession for people who didn't have a compatible mouse back in the day.
You can go ask Romero or Carmack on twitter, or send them an e-mail, I promise you they won't tell you that Doom was designed to primarily be played with just a keyboard and no mouse.
>>2871952
I remember when Quake was first released all the gaming magazines published articles promoting mouse+WASD controls and explaining +mlook.
>>2871209
>Honestly even games that didn't support modern controls can go fuck themselves as well, no reason a person shouldn't be using better controls for their games.
I agree.
I'm now playing GZDoom with a mouse and a one-handed gamepad featuring an analog stick, and movement has never been smoother.
>>2871540
I know that feel. I'm not big on multiplayer games (very few have appealed to me).
>>2869254
Second-rate dark ambient isn't really that good anon. Hundreds of games did spooky ambience better than quake.
They were in talks about a real sountrack and had some samples recorded but they ran out of time and had to scrap it just like so much else.
>>2872053
>NIN is second-rate dark ambient
You. Fuck off. No more from you, ever.
>>2872258
Trent has made some good music and some bad. The quake ost belongs to the latter category.
>>2871952
Well, it's kind of disingenuous to say they all used mouse and keyboard like it was a modern setup. I mean, John Carmack's config was arrow keys for strafe/movement in Quake 2 for fuck sake.
Same with Paul Steed more or less.
Similar with Paul Jaquays.
Sean Martin on Q2 had worse arrow keys in that they his wasn't even strafe. They were default arrows.
Tim Willits didn't even have a setup for strafing.
Todd Hollenshead has strafe added to his - but his config setup appears to either either the basis or based on Willits config. Someone had a config file they setup and passed to either of them and they modified it.
Barret Alexander had a sort of makeshift config where . and / were for strafing and , was duck. He clearly moved his hand left and used a mouse button for forward and left arrow for backwards with his thumb and had weapon binds around the middle of the keyboard next to the strafes.
The only config in there that's really a proper MKB setting that isn't clearly half-assing it thresh. Which has WASD and other keys around it for weapons and such. A little odd with his for his choice of ducking button, but whatever.
Not even by Q2 were they optimally using it. If you asked them if they were using mouse and keyboard the answer would probably be yes but the technically correct response would be likely (rolling the mouse forward to move forward and other weird shit while hitting other things like space and number keys occasionally.)
Romero didn't have a config, but I'd put a small amount of cash down that his was closer to thresh's than anyone else at ID by Q2 since he actively played Doom deathmatch at LANs and tournaments and such, his doom config likely changed a bit to keep up.
Doom was clearly designed to use the mouse, but not to use the mouse correctly. Even turning the Y sensitivity off and only using it for left and right movement would have been the best and most straightforward option if they were, yet no such option like that was created.
>>2872456
>I mean, John Carmack's config was arrow keys for strafe/movement in Quake 2 for fuck sake.
I fail to see the issue with that
>>2872403
That's fine if you want to say it's bad, taste is subjective.
It's not ok to call it second-rate and not a real soundtrack, that's way too fucking far.
>>2872456
Doom was designed to be played with a trackball numnuts.
