Are you on board with the current meme of "old sonics were always bad, you just thought otherwise at the time"? it's just people jumping on the bandwagon or there's any truth to this?
>baseless post-ironic millennial opinions
>truth
you tell me OP
The only thing I hate about the genesis games is the lack of roll jumping.
I've played the Sonic games at many different stages of my life, and they're always fun. I'm assuming that meme is coming from the same underage b& who complain about people abbreviating the original playstation as PSX.
>>2816348
>old sonics were always bad, you just thought otherwise at the time
Probably some kind of Nintendo zealots praising Aonuma Zelda games while shitting on Adventure of Link without even playing it.
>>2816348
Stop saying meme. And who gives a fuck, play it and if you like it, great, if not, whatever.
>>2816348
They haven't aged as well as Mario, but they were decent games.
I've never liked them but I don't think they're bad. I do find them a bit overrated compared to other well regarded platformers though.
>>2816348
I didn't think otherwise at the time. I never like 'old sonic' gameplay.
>>2816389
Why did Mario age better?
>>2816406
Because you hold left to win.
Sometimes Sonic had to go right.
>>2816348
I never liked Sonic even back in the day, but I was also not very good at them either, and I don't blame the game for that. This whole "Sonic had bad design" stuff is untrue.
>>2816374
>underage b& who complain about people abbreviating the original playstation as PSX
Wait, that's a thing? What the fuck is wrong with them?
>>2816406
Well Mario doesn't rely on a gimmick as the default movement.
>Not formulating your own opinion
>Calling opinions memes
Kill yourself
>>2816424
Are you really so sheltered that you don't think people base their opinions on memes
>>2816421
How is momentum a gimmick?
>>2816430
Yes, because I have a hint of respect for people to be critically thinking adults.
>>2816437
Because it's actually too fast. A good platformer shouldn't require guessing or memorization
>>2816376
You're not any better if you deflect it to "nintendo zealots" boogeymen while at the same time shitposting about Zelda.
>>2816406
It's slower paced and more accessible, so it's easier for modern gamers to play. The slower pace also works better on an LCD because the lag is much less of an issue. It also helps that the NES is the only 3rd gen console that your average person knows of, and Mario was Nintendo's mascot for a long time. Sonic only came along in the 4th gen, and only people who had a Genesis have any nostalgia for the franchise.
>>2816420
Newbies seem to think that /vr/ will be impressed by their knowledge of an obscure Japan-only variant of the Playstation. They weren't around when the Playstation was a modern console and everyone abbreviated it as PSX.
>>2816348
I've always liked sonic. The first 4 games, anyway. It seems like the internet made him a joke, and now people play the old games for the first time expecting it to be a retarded experience.
>>2816460
>and now people play the old games for the first time expecting it to be a retarded experience.
wouldn't they be surprised then if they were actually good
>>2816464
You'd be surprised, but most of the times people's perception of something has a lot to do with their pre-conceived ideas.
It's something that marketers know and exploit.
It's what you'd call being biased.
>>2816464
Some do. There was one guy recently who made a thread saying he really liked Sonic 2. But others find something to bitch about and hold onto it (it's too fast, tails gets in the way) due to their hatred of the franchise.
>>2816484
The only time tails ever got in the way was during the special stages, otherwise he's pretty helpful. What was their logic, or did they even have any?
>>2816448
Stop trying to be so PC.
>>2816506
Probably the boss in Chemical Plant Zone. If tails hits Robotnik first, you'll fall into death water. But if you time your jumps opposite of his, it's not an issue.
I kind of like the challenge Tails creates in the special stages. But it's brutal for first timers.
>>2816539
What?
>>2816545
Wait, he was programmed to attack the boss without your prompting? I always remember tails dying there because I was the one attacking Robotnik first. Weird.
>>2816536
after you roll and jump, you have no air control and you move really slow.
>>2816550
I think it happens when players try to bounce on top of the boss like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHwPoLJR0MY
Tails will get a hit in, and Sonic will fall straight through.
>>2816348
>Everything is a meme
>Nobody can hold an opinion without being a bandwagoner
Come on.
Personally I've never liked Sonic games very much. People say they're all about momentum, but going through them for the first time, you're bound to get stopped by an obstacle to didn't see coming, then you have to stop and build up speed again. It's tedious and the platforming isn't very exciting or fulfilling.
>>2816560
Didn't have to look at the video, I know exactly what you're talking about. It's that trick to end the battle in under 10 seconds, yeah? I could see that happening.
Fuckin' tails.
>>2816557
That's because rolling on straight planes already slows you down and jumping is an extension of that so you can't really expect logical horizontal momentum to create itself from nothing.
Although I liked the 8bit games because you could defy physics just like that.
>>2816348
They sold a console so there must be something to them.
>>2816565
It is about momentum, but more importantly it's about maintaining it. Since enemies have to be placed on flat ground, I quickly learned that it's a good idea to roll going down a hill, which alleviates roughly 80% of the cheap deaths. The rest is just platforming skillz.
It's more about racing than the adventure, though some might disagree. Same reason people are willing to play racing games over and over, I suppose.
>>2816570
But you can change directions from a normal jump.
>>2816348
>Play Sonic in 1992
>Have fun
>Play Sonic in 2015
>Have fun
Yeah the series was always bad you guys trust me like comment and subscribeI know "fun" isn't a sufficient enough reason to explain why a game is good or bad, my point is that if so many people are still able to extract entertainment from these games years later, then they must not be as bad as people make them out to be.
>>2816352
I believe you've just set the buzzword density record with this post. Congrats.
>>2816580
...Why did you reply to me? I was stating that he should be able to make his own observations instead of bandwagoning.
>>2816348
Nah, I grew up mainly a SNES kid but got a Genesis in late '94 and loved the fuck out of going fast... Also Streets of Rage 2 was like crack. But then I did go back to playing the SNES more because it really does have better everything.
I like Sonic 2 and 3, but I dont think the gameplay is perfect, like Mario, it is more like I am impresed by the production values, how big the levels are, and how excellent the music is.
It is kinda like Yoshi's Island, I dont like the gameplay much (eating enemies, making eggs, throwing them, retrieving baby Mario, the flutter jump) but the level design is full of fantastic ideas and the graphics are beautiful.
>>2816572
I dont know how old you are, I am in my early 30s and for example as a kid I would go to a shop with my mother to buy some home appliance, they would have a Genesis for sale connected to a tv with a Sonic game, I would watch Sonic go through loops at super high speeds, and it would make want to play the game, or tell my mother to get me that for birthday or christmas, the Sonic speed was a very successful gimmick.
>>2816580
Fuck off retard.
>>2816593
Well, that's because by rolling you create friction in the air in which you-fuck you're right.
>>2816602
OP was not bandwagoning, he was expressing his thoughts on what he considers (sadly I'm noticing it too) a bandwagon opinion and asks us for, well, ours in the matter.
>>2816623
Aw, that's kind of cute, actually. I'd appreciate it more if he hadn't called it a meme...
>>2816626
Meme kinda goes with bandwagon desu. I think it all started with a Sonic 2 bashing video by some literally whos on youtube 2 years ago.
>>2816578
>It's more about racing than the adventure, though some might disagree.
The nice thing about Sonic is that you can play it multiple ways. I take my time going through the levels and enjoy the puzzles and platforms, other people race through and try to score big time bonuses. Can't do that in Mario games.
>>2816643
Except you can
>>2816648
You can go fastish in Mario, and Mario gives you more tools to skip parts of the levels, and iirc the time bonuses don't amount to much and points are worthless after SMB3.
>>2816650
Yeah it's not like you can just fly over almost every sonic level or anything
The old Sonic games still hold up today in my opinion. The only /vr/ Sonic that doesn't really hold up is Sonic Adventure 1.
>>2816663
2 on Game Gear wasn't too bad really, just kinda mediocre. By hold up, I mean the games that were considered good in the first place.
>>2816643
That's the thing though, the multiple paths are different lengths so staying on the top path is ideal for fast runs, and it requires skill to do so.
The level skipping elements in Mario always felt cheap to me. Sure it helps with more difficult levels, but you tend to avoid certain levels altogether as a result. That's something you can't do in sonic games.
>>2816663
>knuckles chaotix
Calling it bad is a stretch, I'd say underdesigned. And those others you mentioned are not really bad, especially 2.
>>2816665
It's definitely more satisfying to go fast in Sonic. Floating through Mario levels with the P-Wing is just tedious. It feels like you're just giving up and skipping the level instead of doing something clever. The only time I enjoyed it was the optional level in SMW where you relied on the P-Wings to get through the stage. Mario stages are super linear too, and I like the exploration element in Sonic.
>>2816690
That's more or less what I was trying to say. The "World select" sections in SMB1 felt like more of a speedrunning tool more than anything. Lost Levels sort of addressed this with the world select pipes that sent you backwards, but that still boils down to memorization.
It's nice to be able to choose your own path through a level, even if it's not as efficient.
>>2816702
>It's nice to be able to choose your own path through a level, even if it's not as efficient.
Yeah that's what I do. There are 2-3 paths, each with their own sets of puzzles and challenges. They all have hidden areas that take some tricks to find too. That means there's a lot of replayability. Once you've played through a Mario level, that's it, you've played it. You can go through a Sonic level a couple times and get very different experiences depending on the path you choose -- like Aquatic Zone, or Chemical Plant 2 where the overland and underwater paths have very different mechanics.
>>2816714
I remember being pleasantly surprised finding a shortcut to the chemical rising segment in chemical plant zone. I think it's right near the beginning after the first loop; there was a red spring to send you back the other way that takes you back though some more loops, but it also put you at the bottom of the stage. I just recently tried jumping before the spring and found it cuts out a good chunk of the level.
Just goes to prove how allowing for the user to control the experience massively extends replayability.
>>2816723
There's a big shortcut in Chemical Plant 2 that skips the rising water bit, and instead takes you to a cool quadruple loop.
>>2816727
Care to expand a bit? It might jog my memory.
>>2816439
oh you
>>2816348
Most of the old Sonic games are pretty good, but anything other than 2 (which is excellent) is kinda overrated compared to other platformers of the time.
>>2816348
Nope. They were damn-well made. Was Sonic '06 so bad that it warped the space-time continuum and tainted those before it?
>>2816565
Sonic CD fixes that problem if I'm remembering things right, if you hit an obstacle most of the time a spring will appear behind you so you can quickly gain back that momentum.
>>2816348
Master System Sonic is money
I grew up a Nintendo kid and only played through Sonic 3&K for the first time a few months ago. I had a fucking blast and I consider it a fantastic game. I honestly consider it on par with some of the Marios.
Part of why I enjoyed it was I learned not to play like an idiot. If you don't have some idea what's ahead of you and you're in a zone filled with obstacles, don't blast through at max speed like a retard. That doesnt mean you have to tiptoe through it, there's a big range of speed between walking and top speed. You learn early on that jumping at different speeds causes Sonic to jump at different trajectories and velocities, you need to do this to make even basic jumps. Don't move enough and you don't reach the platform, go too fast and you overshoot it. The game conditions you early on to manage Sonic's speed. If you aren't good at Mario don't hold the run button the entire time. If you aren't good at Sonic don't go full on GOES FAST the whole game. That shit is on the player.
Haven't played as much of the other Sonic games so I can't comment on those.
>>2816348
No, I'm not on board with some stupid fucking hivemind, why would you think that there's truth something like that?
lurk moar
>>2816448
Aonuma Zelda is genuine trash only Nintento zealots sing praises about.
I honestly hardly saw anyone bashing the original Sonic games until some YouTube faggots made a video, now it's everywhere.
It's a shame how YouTubers can ruin a game's reputation due to their fanbase of 15 year old parrots. See also: Ocarina of Time.
>>2816348
Sonic 1: shitty levels, alright music, controls well, and meh bosses
Sonic 2: best levels, great music, controls better than 1, and decent bosses
Sonic 3 and Knuckles: mostly good levels, amazing music, controls the best of the trilogy, and best bosses
the engine got better as the series went on, and the scale progressively got bigger. Level design was damn near trash past green hill in Sonic 1. Level design reached its peak in 2 since the only slow levels are metropolis kinda and sky chase, compared to 3 and Knuckles having mother fucking sandopolis. The music is the most subjective part here but I think it got better each game, mostly. Oddly, my favorite music track comes from my least favorite of the three games, Scrap Brain Zone
Moral of the story: if you have a genesis lying around and a copy of each game, you should probably reach for 2, but 3 and Knuckles is also fine.
>>2817105
To be honest the audience that truly matters doesn't care about those youtube attention whores. The fact that the Mega Drive games are still selling today is proof of their quality.
>>2817105
>See also: Ocarina of Time
OoT is much more flawed than the original Sonic games though. The more you replay it the more obvious the problems appear, and many of them are seriously in the way of fun.
>>2817105
I know Eorapture was behind OoT parrots, but was there anyone who did this with the genesis Sonics?
>>2817160
You're right, but I hope you know Egoraptor at the very least was 90% wrong. it's come in the way of legitimate OoT criticism that a big name made an ass over himself and people listened.
>>2817162
>Egoraptor
Implying I needed this fat fuck to be mad at OoT.
>>2817162
>but was there anyone who did this with the genesis Sonics?
He also hates the genesis Sonics.
>>2817164
okay good
I'm also buttmad that pretty much any OoT criticism will be deflected as "get out Ego" by a lot of people nowadays
>>2816348
I really enjoyed the classic sonics. But I found them way too easy.
>>2817167
I don't know why people blame him for some things but not others. He says a lot of dumb shit like Silent Hill sucks because it's boring and nobody liked Contra 3
>>2817176
because Zelda and Sonic are so much more contrarian and controversial to shit-talk than those games, people remember that more
sonic games weren't amazing but they were pretty good, they certainly weren't bad
the problem they ran into is basically the spyro the dragon formula: they ran out of gameplay possibilities that hadn't yet been explored, and meaningful ways to improve the gameplay with each sequel. the mario formula is infinitely expandable in a way that the sonic formula was not.
good while it lasted tho
>>2817193
Silent Hill is more loved than Sonic which is why nobody gives a fuck when someone says it sucks because they know that person is an idiot.
>>2817216
>Silent Hill is more loved than Sonic
Maybe on hipster sites like 4chan, you seem to forget that Sonic is pretty fucking huge no matter how poor he's been in the mid 2000s
>>2817217
Something being loved and something having a large fanbase of actual children isn't the same thing. You're equating popularity with adoration which is laughably stupid
>>2817219
Well then anon tell me why Ego didn't create a massive hatebase for Silent Hill when he said that?
There's tons of morons watching him ready to jump on shit like that, and I'm willing to bet a lot of those morons don't know Silent Hill well enough to garner "adoration" for it and assume he's stupid.
So we can all agree that YouTubers and their awful fanbases are the worst thing to ever happen to retro games?
>>2817220
Arin didn't "create a massive hatebase" for anything.
>>2817223
Yep
Hell you could say this dates back to James Rolfe
Anything before that?
>>2817226
Ocarina of Time
>>2817232
What about it?
>>2816374
Much more likely that some retard Nintendo centric youtube channel told them Sonic games were always bad.
>>2817243
If you think this whole army of 15 year olds who think Ocarina of Time sucks aren't getting their opinions from EgoFaggot you're delusional.
>>2817247
>i think contrarians need a reason to be contrarian
Yes, you enjoy that hate boner you have for some c-tier youtuber
>>2817249
Oh sure some of them are just contrarians, but a lot of people do just spout the same nonsense about waiting or whatever that I never saw before that video.
>>2817247
They were hating on OoT long before that video came out, except now they have a few more points to parrot. Games that get praised as GOTYAY will always have an immense backlash, regardless of actual quality.
>>2816348
>>2817253
Holy crap I couldn't have put it better myself.
>>2817251
I think you're kind of right, but I really do think YouTubers have major sway in what a lot of kids think about retro games unfortunately. At least we can agree that most people who post about video games on the Internet are garbage, right?
>>2817220
>Well then anon tell me why Ego didn't create a massive hatebase for Silent Hill when he said that?
Because no one cares much about SH
>>2817253
>peer pressure
That's an interesting way of looking at it. I always knew that people watch e-celebs for the who surrogate friend thing, but I could never figure out why they always repeat whatever they say like it's gospel. I think whoever wrote that has hit onto something there, it's peer pressure to join the herd mentality. Food for thought, anyway.
>>2817258
I fucking love Silent Hill. But I never watched Egofagtor because I'm not 12.
>>2817247
>Egoraptor is the reason everyone hates OoT
You're giving him way too much credit while underestimating everyone else at the same time.
>>2817214
There's a leap of logic that happened somewhere that lead to this, whatever it means.
>>2817258
that's my point
>>2817262
Last time I checked that video had 4 million views and it was mostly upvoted.. He does have some influence on gamers of a certain age, sadly.
>>2817261
>I fucking love Silent Hill
Anecdotical "I, my, me" argument.
>But I never watched Egofagtor because I'm not 12
If not even watching his videos sends you in such a frenzy you'd probably die of a stroke before finishing watching them.
>>2817273
That's a lot of views.
>>2817256
I really hate this stupid YouTube culture though. Not only do people seem to prefer watching someone play games rather than playing them themselves, they base their opinions on the quality of said games on what other people are saying about them. They're often not even providing great arguments, but just spouting memes and yelling a lot.
I also base my purchases off of reviews every now and then, but at least I'll look at Metacritic and check out a few people's opinions rather some memelord with a billion Youtube subscribers.
>>2817280
I feel exactly the same way. I know most generations hate the generation that comes after them and think the stuff they do and like is really dumb, but I think my generation is the first to be right in thinking that.
>>2817131
>shitty levels
What's that? Is Marble Zone too slow for you?
>>2817294
yes
and so is labyrinth
and spring yard is annoying with cheap-shot enemies and traps
Green Hill is good
Starlight is pretty alright
and Scrap Brain is good
half of the game's zones are trash
I love Sonic, but I also love making people mad. And a really easy way of doing that is saying "Sonic was never good".
>>2817303
GOTTA GO FAST
>>2817307
>>2817312
Such a cute design. I hate what they did with him in Adventure. And I hate that that design has stuck.
>>2817253
>i weep for this generation
That's literally every generation. I don't know why anyone would think this one is the first generation that had retarded as fuck teenagers.
>go old school and try games ourselves
Yeah because nobody in the 80s or 90s was influenced by other people's opinions into blinding loving or hating something
>>2817316
I hate what they did with him in BOOM. And I hate that they're making more of it.
>>2817317
>Yeah because nobody in the 80s or 90s was influenced by other people's opinions into blinding loving or hating something
back in the day when I was a kiddo, I got myself to be influenced by many magazines, thus playing a lot of games pre-biased. It was only when I grew up that I could replay them and think "actually this is a very fine game" (or viceversa).
>>2817253
i stopped reading this pretentious shit after the first sentence
>>2817334
It really is preachy pretentious shit.
>>2817319
Yeah, the cartoon isn't as good as it was at the start.
>>2817317
>>2817323
This is true. But at least magazines tend to give decent arguments to why they like or dislike a game.
They're obviously not perfect and nowhere near unbiased (I remember one magazine having a running meme about how bad GEX was and another on how ridiculously impossibly difficult Ikaruga was) but they reach a smaller audience than Youtubers and tended not to have as big an influence on their readers.
>>2817371
It wasn't just magazines, it was kids on the playground, it was early message boards, it was marketing, etc
Half of the people in that Lost World discussion don't even care about games. A large portion of people who watch gamegrumps or whatever don't actually care about games.
It's not any different than someone saying how Goldeneye is one of the best games ever made and complaining that they don't make FPS as good as that anymore when in reality Goldeneye is mediocre at best and if it was released today it'd get shit on.
Shitting on Sonic or OoT or the reverse, praising them endlessly has gone on forever. Blaming it on any single person, especially someone who wasn't even a thing when the games were new is retarded.
Getting on the "Sonic sucks" bandwagon is not new by any stretch of the imagination.
>>2817378
>goldeneye
>mediocre
Post discarded
>>2817398
>i'm going to ignore your entire post because you don't agree with me
Thanks for proving the point
>>2817371
>>2817378
There's more of a cult of personality around e-celebs than there ever was in magazines in my experience. The designated "cool guy" says it so all the followers repeat it. That's the difference between something like EGM and e-celebs IMO.
I guess that's why companies get real life celebrities to endorse shit, they know that the celebrities fanbase is going to do whatever they say and buy the product.
>>2817420
It's always going to be something. e-celebs are just cheaper than other forms of marketing. If youtube and twitter suddenly went away it would just be something or someone else forming opinions for dumb people.
>>2817378
>an almost 20 year old game is poor by today's standards!
Well fucking duh, computers and consoles are both better now, graphics have improved, gameplay has been streamlined, the bar is just higher now. OoT would also not be very impressive if it were released after one of the new 3D Zelda games, but it was received so well because it was so great for its time and because it laid the foundation for its successors. Same for Goldeneye, which was quite influential for FPSes.
>>2817457
No, good games are still good. If a game "aged poorly" that means it wasn't ever good.
>>2817378
>Goldeneye is mediocre at best
>>2817463
Was only considered good back then*
>>2817463
>If a game "aged poorly" that means it wasn't ever good.
thats not how aging works.
>>2817495
I disagree with that. People confuse enjoyment with something being "good"
You can enjoy a bad game and you can not enjoy a good game. Your subjective experience on it doesn't change the quality of the product.
>>2817503
Hence the scrunchy fingers. I don't buy into the idea of things being given special treatment because they're a product of their time or whatever.
>>2817463
>No, good games are still good. If a game "aged poorly" that means it wasn't ever good.
Dune 2 was the greatest thing ever when it came out but it is completely unplayable by modern standards. You can't even select multiple units.
>>2817513
So it's not good then
I love this meme. If games didn't age we would still be playing with life and continue systems
>>2817520
You act like that those aren't still things.
>>2817512
You seem to confuse objectivity with subjectivity.
>>2817512
>People confuse enjoyment with something being "good"
Sounds like a bitter Miyamoto promoting 3D Mario while everyone is buying and wanting more 2D Mario.
>>2817529
I don't like 3D mario but that has nothing to do with them being good or not
>>2817518
No you see, that's bullshit. I think this would be akin to comparing the standard of female beauty across the eras; perhaps you can see a picture of some actress in the 1920's and think that it does not attract you at all, but it would be a foolish assumption to think that she was ugly back then just because the way she carried herself over doesn't conform to today's standards. Games from before were catered to a set of expectations and sensibilities that are different from today; I don't think everything's a matter of technology and constant evolution.
>>2817520
Games dumbing down has nothing to do with ageing, it has to do with casting a wider net. Do you think films like Raging Bull or The Godfather have aged badly because they're slow moving and about the characters compared to The Avengers and capeshit? Is that an improvement to you?
>>2817572
You're pretty bad at drawing comparisons
>>2816453
So fucking true. Kids come here with their "I'm playing this game and it's the rare jap version"... Yeah, nobody here cares. We didn't care and/or know about in the 90's and we don't care/know about it now.
>>2817593
I can't tell if you're being ironic or not
>>2816545
Forgot about that lol
>>2816664
Is that the one with the Golden Sonic at the end?
I pretended to be sick sooooo much to play that
>>2817595
You clearly don't know the definition of that word.
>>2816348
I never thought they were great, but they were satisfying when you memorized a level and could speed run it.
I actually think some of the level in the Sonic Adventure games topped anything in the 2D ones because you could see what was coming up to react to it. Never played any of the other 3D ones though.
I was always a Mario kid anyway.
>>2816348
1 is decent.
2, 3, and K are good.
CD sucks balls.
Never played Chaotix.
Adventure games are God-awful.
>>2816348
On board with a meme? No.
I often like to take breaks from things I've played for a long time to clear my head, then come back at a later date and see if they make the same impression on me again. It keeps me from being biased and sometimes I view things differently over time.
I'm more aware now than I was as a child that the games do indeed have long stretches where you're "just holding right" or letting environmental gimmicks push you through the stage. That's true. But it doesn't detract from the experience. There wasn't much else at the time that had such high speed movement through huge expanses with a variety of "working parts" and scenery change. It was a technical marvel for early 90s home consoles.
And that's all a part of what makes old Sonic good in my book. It was a work of polished presentation gold. Everything about the game spoke clearly to what was considered "cool" in that little pocket of time. From the idea of a mascot "with an attitude" to the brightly colored levels to the killer chiptunes (admittedly not a term used at the time) it was quintessential 90's through and through. And what's more, all those elements meshed together and complimented one another perfectly. Perhaps only the Ninja Turtles beat-em-ups acheived the same balance of capturing the mood and feel of being a kid in the 90s and putting forth solid games that withstood the test of time.
Yes, I still like the old Sonic games, and I honestly think the reason why new Sonic isn't as good is because it ISN'T old Sonic. Old Sonic was, at its best, very much a period piece. They need to embrace that and make the new ones totally radical tubular awesome dude, or the series will never return to form. It doesn't work when you try to make it appeal to modern sensibilities.
>>2816352
Millenial is actually a compliment you mongoloid. Call them kiddos if you want to hurt their feelings.
It's either Nintendo circlejerk bullshit or people deciding to play the games in order. The first Sonic isn't a bad game, but it's not fantastic either. The second game and 3&K are where the series was at peak form. 3&K is probably one of the greatest platformers of all time, but Sega's decision to release it separately robbed it of that title.
>>2818378
Yeah, no.
>>2816565
A big part of that stems from Sega's arcade roots. Sonic was designed as an arcade game first, and a console game second, even if it did come to define their console (and their company).
The 'cheap parts' are supposed to make you remember them for next time, so you can praise yourself for your recollection and experience. Basically like a racing game rewards you remembering what to do at the turns.
I think Sonic is a bit rougher in this regard because unlike something like OutRun where there's maybe 7-8 turns in the entire level, Sonic has tons of hills and ramps to recall and most of them are very similar in appearance.
>>2818989
So basically most people who complain about "artificial difficulty" and old game being "unfair" are just kids who have no idea how arcade style games work because they've never been in an arcade? I agree.
>>2816943
Personally I think there was a lengthy string of bad games leading up to 06, those games just weren't as obviously terrible.
>>2816348
I don't think they are bad, but having lots of a speed in certain moments makes you take damage unfairly, which is something that bothered me back in the day and still bothers me.
>>2816348
It's just a trend. Popular opinions on the series as a whole formulated by fourteen-year-olds who have never even touched a Sonic game and watch Game Grumps are directly correspondent to the the current state of the series. If Sonic Team's three-years-in-the-works game is good, which it has absolutely no excusable reason not to be, "SANIC IS SHIT XDDD" will go away.
>>2817165
that guy hates anything that isn't a specific subset of games from his childhood, he really nostalgia-rides hard and then either has some good points to make or is just totally off-base and angry for no reason.
>>2819024
It's all about memorization, like NiGHTS.
>>2819026
Hopefully you're right. I'm honestly kind of optimistic for the next game too. I liked Generations and Colors a lot and I thought Lost World was okay but it felt more like an experiment than a full blown game that should have been released.
>>2819027
It seems to be that way with a lot of garbage YouTubers. And sadly anyone looking for a discussion on a series without being bombarded with 14 year olds who parrot what they hear has to suffer.
>>2819029
I guess that's a valid point, since when you start you will always start at the beginning, unlike Mario and DK.
That only Sonic games that probably sucks are most of the 3D ones, from what I saw.
Since having a character that moves fast makes the environment less important unless it is something big and it also makes 3D level design really hard to make.
>>2819051
I think the problem is that Sonic is so perfectly suited to 2D that any attempt to bring it to 3D is going to be inferior.
It's such a great blend of a platformer, a racing game and pinball. We all know that 3D platformers only work maybe 50% of the time, and how are you supposed to do a 3D pinball game?
Colors and Generations were quite good because they really played up the racing game aspects.
>>2819051
SA1 has top-notch level-design, and probably some of the best in the series.
>>2819048
Lost World, even if it isn't that great, seems like a step in the right direction in terms of getting Adventure 3, which seems to be what most fans want. Wouldn't it be something if Sonic Team just straight-up made "Sonic Adventure 3" and completely surprised everyone?
>>2819062
I never played a 3D Sonic game, and to tell the truth the only ones that I might give a chance are SA1 and Heroes.
SA1 to see if it's does a good job, at least at the Sonic's story, because every other mode looks pretty boresome.
Also, why the hell did Sega put Sonic with realistic humans characters?
And I want to check Heroes because the trio system sounds pretty good to me.
>>2819058
In my particular case I'm not really a fan of Sonic 2D's physics, but that's more of my problem.
Now, in the case of the 3D games I can find a some things that don't translate well at all to the 3D environment:
-Plataforming with high speed character
-Making several levels big enough for a fast character, so that he won't beat them in a matter of 1 minute.
-How to make the elimination of destructables/enemies work well, without auto aim shit.
You can see that what makes the game hard to design is the only fact that Sonic is a fast character, which makes level design and visual polishment something that would probably take a lot of time to work on on stuff that the player will probably ignore while running.
>>2819072
If you ever buy SA1, get the Dreamcast version. All those horror stories about DX are true. Also take note that the game takes time to get used to, you'll encounter obnoxious issues with getting stuck on walls every now and then, and the camera is too horrible for its own good, but I would still recommend it anyway because of the excellent controls and level-design. Tails, Knuckles, and Gamma stages are also pretty good.
>Also, why the hell did Sega put Sonic with realistic humans characters?
That wasn't really a thing until SA2. The humans in SA1 have a simplistic anime style that works well enough, but their body-proportions are too normal.
>>2819078
Well, that's bad news for me then, I will have to have that in mind when I play SA1 DX then.
Since I don't have a Dreamcast and I don't have a decent PC to emulate DC right now.
>>2819083
And for some reason, the DX version looks like complete horse shit. Mind this first guy kind of sucking at the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHXPuMiEZ6k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zdvPaPXhNk
>>2819091
well both versions look bad
Dreamcast is lower poly and gamecube for some retarded reason is shiny like heroes and shadow after it
>>2819092
Nigga the Dreamcast version looked incredible for 1998.
>>2819092
DX isn't shiny like Heroes and Shadow. DX has a complete lack of proper lighting and shading.
>>2819101
>DX pretty much looks just as bad by modern standards
It really doesn't. Levels like Final Egg and Speed Highway are still decent to look at because of the lighting, something that DX can't into.Also, you type like an underage b&. Improve yourself.
>>2816348
>Are you on board with the current meme of "old sonics were always bad, you just thought otherwise at the time"?
No because there were plenty of bad games back then so we could tell quality from shit
>>2816607
> Also Streets of Rage 2 was like crack
Streets of Rage 2 is the comfiest game ever made and I'll Grand Upper anyone who says otherwise. It's hard to take all the talk of "video games these days are corrupting kids" when I was smashing in a strippers face with pipe by age 6
Sonic is and always has been complete bullshit
No of course they were never good
It's entire existence is just based on the gimmick of being faster than Mario
That's all the 90s were, fucking commercials of hurrr Marios so lame kids SANIC BLOWS HIM AWAY he's SO FAST
And all the spaz kids ate it up
Why do think it always Sonic in those autistic fanarts
>>2819117
What's the point of posting this? What's the point of being a le epic troll?
>>2819117
Why u mad tho?
>>2819126
Enjoying your first day here? Go back to Twitter.
>>2819117
>you will never be this much of a buttmad fanboy
feels great
Sonic is great, anyone freely bashing on it is an idiot or underage. I saw in this thread many legitimate opinions of anons not liking it like Mario, but not trashing it either.
>>2819117
Sonic 2 is great.
>>2819138
You're talking to someone who almost certainly never played it and only knows about old games through Youtube, anon.
>>2819138
It's also the most overrated and the weakest of the genesis era.
>>2819140
You mean weakest of the sonic games? I don't see how it's even possible to think Sonic 2 is worse than 1
>>2819141
>Worse artstyle
>Introduced the "Press down for free momentum" mechanic
>Level design goes down the shitter after Casino Night Zone
>Metropolis Zone
>2 minutes long "level" where all you do is stand on a fucking plane
>Made Sonic taller for no reason
>Shit tier bonus stages
>Introduces Tails
>>2819145
>shitting on Tails
the fuck is your problem nigga
>>2816565
I feel like split second decision making is another part of the whole thing. It feels shitty getting stopped but maintaining due to quick reflexes feels rad as fuck. And while Mario has an edge in precision platforming, Sonic has 6 times as many jumps in him as Mario does unless your family was poor but even then you still had 3 times as many.
>>2819152
You understand there's a difference between fact and opinion, don't you?
>>2816348
No. There's a couple of poor stages in the Genesis Sonic games, sure, but as a whole, they're quite good. Solid control (you have quite a bit of speed and jump control, much more than one would expect), good visuals and sound, generally great stage design.
Like, I do think 2 is overrated as hell simply because it falls apart pretty hard after Mystic Cave Zone, and I've probably turned the system off by the time I'm in Metropolis 3.
maybe I'll slog through Wing Fortress and then fight the final boss (also, that final boss is retarded when locked on with S&K, Knuckles can't fucking jump, it's so much easier with Sonic)
Up to MCZ, the game is pretty consistently ace though. Bottom portion of ARZ is stupid, but it's your fault for falling in there.
1's iffy because half the stages are kind of slow, but Marble is actually better designed that I remembered as a kid, Scrap Brain is hit/miss at bits but kind of fun, fuck Labyrinth. The fast stages (GHZ, SYZ, SLZ) are great though, even if Spring Yard has some stupid bits, like the orbiting spike balls.
3&K's like, 90% great. Unfortunately, 3&K has Marble Garden (both acts, Carnival Night 2, and Sandopolis 2.
Shit's solid as fuck otherwise (I think Sonic 3's best stages are better than Sonic & Knuckles' best stages). The art's great, the music is ace. Hydrocity is the best water level. 3&K as a whole has fucking Icecap and Lava Reef, two of my favorite levels in the series.
>>2816675
>underdesigned
Huh, I was looking for a single word to describe Chaotix at some point.
Rushed fits too, but it doesn't really describe the game, just why the game is the way it is.
damn shame too, the music and visuals are 10/10 quality
the stage design just doesn't exist though
>>2819193
>There's a couple of poor stages in the Genesis Sonic games
Namely Sandopolis and Carnival Night.
I've heard the same thing about Crash Bandicoot. It's probably just a sub-meme of this.
Sonic 1, CD, 2,3&K are excellent. Each have some issues but all got great music, great levels and should be up there in the realms of platform greatness alongside Mario.
The Rush and Advance games are all shadows of the Genesis titles with only momentary glimpses of innovation. Same goes for 4.
Colors was pretty good and Generations I really liked, even if the 3D stages were a bit weak.
So are people for real saying all Sonic is shit because of being butthurt over Boom? I mean, Boom isn't great but its a lot more playable than '06. It's shovel-ware, what did you expect from a game rushed to come out alongside a cartoon?
>>2819152
Because some of the most iconic platformers of all time, the same games that sold a console, and ran on an extremely advanced physics engine that no one else could even attempt to replicate, are "bad" because you couldn't learn how to play them and think other people are wrong for enjoying them. Are you that fucking insecure? Were you dropped multiple times as a baby? Are you severely autistic? Please tell me.
>>2819438
Advance 2 and the Rush games aren't trying to be Classic Sonic in the slightest. They're doing their own things.
>>2816421
If running is a gimmick, so is jumping.
>>2819393
I blame Nintendo fanatics.
>>2817316
I know right? He actually looks more like a hedgehog than any of the redesigns.
>>2819026
>Sonic Team's three-years-in-the-works game
wut
>>2819062
>SA1 has top-notch level-design
That's one thing I'll probably fight you on.
Windy Valley, Sky Deck, Lost World, and Final Egg are kind of awful in various ways. Windy Valley starts off okay, and then becomes "hold up: the level," it's the damn posterchild for the whole hold-up-to-win criticism of the game. Sky Deck is a real clusterfuck, particularly the second half. Lost World is slow, the "puzzles" aren't really interesting (also, the water snake is glitchy as fuck, there's nothing as dumb as clipping through the thing). Final Egg is similar in a lot of ways to Sky Deck.
SA1's camera helps none of these stages, either.
I'm not a fan of Speed Highway, but it's not too offensive either. I used to like Icecap more, dunno what happened. It's still pretty solid though.
That being said, Emerald Coast and Red Mountain are fantastic, with all kind of little skips (and in the case of Red Mountain, several deliberate alternate paths), a nice balance of go fast running and platforming, etc. To this day, I think Red Mountain is the best 3D Sonic stage of them all, even the second half.
>>2820010
>Windy Valley
Even though the third act is extremely "hold up to win", it's not entirely linear. There are still plenty of hidden extras and places where you can find shortcuts by jumping off the track and landing on another part.
>Sky Deck
I really like this one's design. Hanging onto the cylinders, avoiding the cannon's shots and blowing it up, and running on the area where the fighter jets take off while the platforms sink is all good stuff, and I would like the final section too if it wasn't for horrible camera angles and severe glitches.
>Lost World and Final Egg
Once again, the only problem is a horrible camera, causing depth-perception issues with the former and getting stuck behind walls in the latter. Also, I've never had any problems with the snake. I know you slide around on it a little bit, but I've never clipped through it. Is that a DX thing?
I also agree with your opinion of Red Mountain being the best 3D Sonic level. It's perfect all the way through, and the perfect foil for people who think a character as fast as Sonic can't do actual 3D platforming. If we ever get SA3, this is how all the levels should be designed.
>>2819989
Their last game was Sonic Lost World, from late 2013. Their next game will presumably come out about a year from now. Three years is the longest time Sonic Team has ever had to develop a Sonic game so far.
>>2820138
Also with Windy Valley's third act, there's that section with the stone tower with the hole on top that has about three layers of platforms surrounding it, which is pretty cool.
>>2816565
>People say they're all about momentum but going through them for the first time you're bound to get stopped by an obstacle to didn't see coming
Like every other platformer. Every 2D game in existence has never enabled the player to see completely what's in front of them since that would negate the challenge (thus the quality) of the game genre; which in Sonic's mechanics is by maintaining speed and reacting to the environment and obstacles through reflex (which are always on the right-hand side of the screen).
>>2816348
No
Sonic 3 and Knuckles is a masterpiece of game design and the pinnacle of the 2D Side-Scrolling Platformer Genre
>>2817131
2 is the worst of the classics you goddamn pleb
but there's no accounting for shit taste
>>2820205
>Every 2D game in existence has never enabled the player to see completely what's in front of them
You're kinda dumb,
>>2817632
>I actually think some of the level in the Sonic Adventure games topped anything in the 2D ones
Fucking Heresy
3D Sonic Level design is downright trash compared to the classics
>>2820205
>People say they're all about momentum but going through them for the first time you're bound to get stopped by an obstacle to didn't see coming
What the fuck is up with this attitude that a game should be completely experienced and beatable perfectly the first time? What joy is there in something that harbors nothing surprising or challenging to overcome? You kids these days...
>>2819193
>Shitting on Marble Garden
>Shitting on the best 2D Platforming Level ever made
kill yourself nigger
>>2820430
Spot the dickhead who's never played SA1.
>>2820460
I've played SA1 countless times
It's not that good
And claiming that any 3D Sonic Game has better level design than any of the original 4 game is fucking heresy period
>>2820482
Red Mountain.
>>2816406
slower pace makes level challenge more engaging, powerups that are helpful outside of an extra hit, consequences to getting hit besides grabbing one of the rings that flies out of you, is contained in it's own universe and isn't based on an awkward japanese 90s cool archetype character, etc.
theyre just better games really
>>2817303
Get good fag
>>2819193
Marble Garden is actually pretty neat when you stop hating it mindlessly.
>>2820601
The boss is dumb as fuck and there's more than a reasonable amount of crushers and the big swinging spiked balls placed in areas where you're going fast and will probably get clipped by them, even knowing they're there. The layout isn't awful as a whole (unlike say, CNZ2), but the object placements in it really are ass.
>>2820558
mate, I love Lava Reef
but even though there's more of it, it's not really as good as Red Mountain
>>2816406
because Sega stopped being popular, full stop
>>2820138
man, I still want to like Sky Deck more than I actually do, the level's idea is really cool, you get the feeling that Sonic Team definitely tried to make it look and feel exciting
>>2820448
>>>/b/
>>2821148
What got deleted?
>>2821167
Some fag who hates Sonic Adventure and called Red Mountain, and I quote, "poor-man's lava reef".
>>2821148
It's actually the only moment in original trilogy were the 2nd player using Tails is actually useful, more acts should have boss fights like Marble Garden.
>>2817092
Nah, only the Toon Link games.
>>2821338
Maybe it was because his opinion is stupid and wrong, and he's a bad person IRL for having it.
>>2821358
All Aonuma Zelda are plagued by loads of bullshit. SS is pretty much nothing but bullshit for the whole game.
>>2820426
Did not you see the word 'completely' in my sentence? What I originally intended in my comment was that 2D games have never allowed the player to see the ENTIRE level ahead of them in a platformer (real-time), due to the limitation of the screen aspect ratios of that time.
>>2820431
>What joy is there in something that harbors nothing surprising or challenging to overcome?
It's because people these days want instant gratification, rather than developing new skills to overcome these obstacles.
Why do sonic fans hate levels that actually are challenging?
>>2817162
Egoraptor.
Im pretty sure all the recent hate comes from kids parroting youtube faggots. I know RLM aidsmoby did a hilariously shitty hate vid about sonic 1 & 2 (they never played 3).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYDsz1NFBJw
Also Vinesauce loves to call sonic shit every chance possible even though he also never played any of the games.
>>2821892
they can't figure out that sonic can roll...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1hugi-hHcg
>>2821892
The cancer killing Sonic.
Rote memorisation was never a problem until the last 5 years.
As if old Sonic was a real hard exam in the first place.
Press DOWN to spin in a ball while running. Press JUMP when you see an enemy or spike.
ALL THE SONIC GAMES ON THE GENESIS WERE SOLID MY G.
WHY YOU TALKING SHIT ON THE CLASSIC.
ACCEPT FOR THAT PINBALL ONE THAT SHIT WAS GAY.
SO WAS THAT "PUSUWAYDO" 3D ONE THAT WAS ALSO ON THE SATURN. THAT SHIT HAD HORRIBLE DEPTH PERCEPTIONS. I COULD NEVER BEAT THAT LAVA STAGE BOSS WITH THE PIPES AND SHIT.
IS SONIC CD WORTH IT ?
SONIC 2 G.O.A.T. SONIC GAME. GAMEPLAY/MUSIC/STAGES
SONIC FRANCHISE DIED WITH THE DREAMCAST.
>>2820431
>What the fuck is up with this attitude that a game should be completely experienced and beatable perfectly the first time?
Because that's how modern games are designed, and people who play them think everything should be that way. It's pretty fucking vile seeing that attitude on a board dedicated to discussing retro games, though.
>>2822051
we need a crackhead containment board
>>2822064
people want engaging, fair challenges that you dont have to pull a bunch of trial-error shit to get around properly. its not a problem in well designed games.
>>2821892
Looking at their face, I know what to think.
>>2822078
What do you mean "properly?" You can finish all the levels without dying if you're careful. You won't be able to complete them flawlessly, on the other hand. Because that actually requires knowledge and practice. Also there are no difficult platformers which can be beaten by someone without prior knowledge of the levels. They simply don't exist.
>>2821892
This shit was physically painful to watch. I don't mind people pointing at problems but when they go as far as being as autistic as possible to show their disdain it's just grating.
>>2816352
Millennial starts at 1982 so it's more than likely even the majority of the people who played the Genesis games when they came out were also millennials.
>>2822132
Fucking '81 fags.
>>2816660
>The only /vr/ Sonic that doesn't really hold up is Sonic Adventure 1
Yeah but you shouldn't hold it against. They just didn't know what the fuck they were doing, so they tried to copy everyone. I find it charming in how much they tried, every if the result was kind of a mess.
They got their bearings by Adventure 2.
>>2819438
>>2819487
Advance 1 was more akin to the Genesis title with it's play style and level layout while still introducing some features like the air dash and Amy in as a whole. Advance 2 added the boost mode mechanic and some features making it more about speed. Game barely even had a water section. Advance 3 main focus was the team mechanic which made the game way different than the rest. Good series overall.
All this discussion about classic Sonic, has anyone else here played (well actually I'm assuming you have and want opinions) those retro-style fangames Sonic Before The Sequel and Sonic After the Sequel?
They're not on the same level as classic Sonic but I thoroughly enjoy both of them. Although the music in each is probably the best parts, although it is kinda cheating being mp3 quality audio, not limited by hardware.
>>2822281
Haven't played them, but from watching I'm liking the going from above the rain clouds to under the clouds thing in the first stage. I might give Before a try at some point.
>>2822281
The only thing that's cheating is how you managed to be so impossibly cute~
>>2816348
I'm on board with playing them myself and formulating my own opinion, that's what I'm on board with.
I also like hearing other people's opinions if they give in depth reasons and justifications. "It's good," or "it's bad" work, but they don't mean much without explanation.
>>2822082
but in well designed games you can recognize a challenge before attempting to overcome it. in sonic you just hit stuff you couldn't possibly see coming, it's not fun or engaging, it's frustrating.
>>2822805
oh and forced memorization isnt a design choice, its a fanboy excuse for shitty design
>have always disliked Sonic 1 because the levels have never clicked with me and I disliked the design in most of them
>Sonic 2 is one of the best Genesis games of all time, Top 5 for the console and a game on par with the best platformers of it's era
>disliked Sonic 3 because the art style shift (everything looks so soft..) and thought the lack of variety in level layout was off putting
I only like Sonic 2, and I've thought that since 1997.
