Previous thread - >>2744956
This thread is for the spirited discussion of CRT displays - Televisions, monitors and projectors used for the playing of retro games!
>Try to keep it /vr/-related: Nothing past 5th gen(+Dreamcast). Slight OT might be okay if related to CRTs (E.G. 16:9 compatible models, flatscreens, etc.) Systems with backwards compatibility are also pretty safe territory, assuming you're focusing on the older games. PC CRTs are also a-ok.
>Produce OC! Get out your real cameras and take beautiful pictures of your CRTs displaying recognizable characters with the kind of beautiful accuracy that brings tears to the eyes of young and old alike! If you take 100 photos, at least one of them will turn out alright! (maybe)
>Try to be as detailed as possible when asking info on a specific model. As always, google is your friend, and we are your friends with benefits. Older archived threads aren't a bad place to look either.
>Share appreciation for others choice of technology and personal philosophy of gaming. As always show courtesy in your discussion and moderate yourselves first.
CRT Pastebin (WIP): http://pastebin.com/1Ri5TS3x
S-Video Pasta: http://pastebin.com/rH2h6C7W
Thread Survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1PhdXJYwA8xModrTV1Yt-i1tvNgwiagpeBx0m_xNIVtc/viewform?edit_requested=true&fbzx=9009823977812318933
What's worse
LCD or Composhit?
>muh pvm
>>2758709
Not mutually exclusive
>>2758709
Even though RGB is clearly superior, composite can be nice.
Only RF is inherently bad.
>>2758709
An LCD's upscaling will often render any SD signal as complete ass; Composite, Component, whatever; I find it impossible to tell the difference on my LCD TV.
Someone just stuck up some 14M2s at a almost reasonable price on the ebays in ohio.
>>2758804
Oh nevermind, the price was for one not both. Dude does have some M4s listed though.
what kind of TV is this?
>>2758836
big guy™
>>2758836
That's a rear-projection TV.
>>2758836
The kind every game's manual recommends you not to video game on.
>>2758085
>>2758126
>>2758137
>>2758174
>>2758280
>>2758292
Previous thread's OP here. Finishing off the rest of the Ninja Assault CRT discussion here. Heard back from John Yates this morning:
"I noticed what you say about the ninja assault monitor. It's a 39" wells Gardner monitor, and I put an NOS chassis on it. IIRC I can make the issue disappear if I turn the brightness down, but then the guns don't work as well. Common gun game issue. "
What came up in my search for a 39" Wells Gardener Arcade/Showcase CRT was this http://videotronicsuk.com/spare-parts/monitors-chasis/39in-wells-gardner-digital-crt-monitor.html
So I'd say case closed on that one. Have at it if anyone has 255 GBP and trust in whatever (stupidly cheap) flat rate shipping service that UK website uses, then there you go. Relatively cheap and super rare presentation size Arcade RGB CRT.
>fuzzy and blurry
>open blinds or a lamp and you can barely see anything because of glare
>huge
>high pitched whine from tubes
Fuck that.
Plenty of 5th gen games look fine on an LCD screen, you don't need an old hunk of shit TV to enjoy an old game.
My laptop shows Super Castlevania crystal clear and pixel perfect, it's beautiful and there's no need for a shit TV or fugly filter.
Please rate.
>>2758903
After much difficulty with my camera (and resorting to partially blocking the flash with my finger), I managed a somewhat decent shot of the strange blurry quality I'm getting with Dracula X Chronicles' port of Symphony of the Night. Then again, the non-native resolutions + not a true line-doubled 480p output from the PSP are the most likely explanations for that.
>>2759169
Another shot without the flash.
Full res version here: https://a.pomf.cat/cvuvbo.JPG
>>2758709
Composite is the way I prefer to play NES games because to me the colours of rgb modded NES look wrong. I admit this is 100% subjective.
With composite terrain that is meant to look like earth generally looks brown, with component it looks reddish. I think Megaman should have a white face, not Simpsons yellow.
>>2759204
>I think Megaman should have a white face, not Simpsons yellow.
I can respect that, the faces do look odd. But look at the lines on the boxes around the robot masters. So much smoother and clean through rgb.
>>2759204
What kind of RGB mod are you referring to? If it's NESRGB, you should have multiple palletes to pick from (including the original "natural" composite pallete)
>>2759263
>>2759265
Also, to my recall, if whites are coming up yellow-ish, that's evidence of the Playchoice 10 PPU's Pallete or "Garish" Pallete on the NESRGB. Might want to double-check that.
On a more relevant note, have some Popful Mail (having reconnected my SCD).Also, just use the report button, people. It's global rule 3.
>>2759287
What monitor is this from?
Looks like a 20L5 from the sharpness of those lines.
>>2759205
I'll be sure to check that again later.
>>2759294
BVM D20F1U, actually. Some argue that 900TVL has overly thick scanlines but it doesn't really bother me (particularly at a distance).
how do i degauss my sony pvm 14n2u
>>2759304
It should degauss automatically on startup, if I'm correct. I'm not too familiar with onboard PVM controls but every BVM controller I've seen also has a dedicated degauss button.
If a power-on degauss isn't removing discoloration from magnetization, then there might be a problem with the internal degaussing circuitry (barring convergence/aperture grill damage issues).
>>2759298
UGH, BVMs are so sexy. I like my scanlines like I like my women, thick, dark black, and as many as the eye can see.
>>2759314
I'll happily record some gameplay once I can find a solid tripod for this camera (1-handed platforming + 1-handed photography sucks)
>>2759321
Better example, though I haven't been able to get the individual "not-pixels" of the grid focused quite like Kya. Must be a limitation of my lens.
>>2759332
*grill, not grid. Must be typing drunk.
there is a button on my TV that has the 3.58 TRAP
next to my degausse button, I push it...nothing happens. what is it.
>>2759450
>I push it...nothing happens.
That's likely because you're not using composite.
>what is it.
Forcing Y/C separation circuits to use the 3.58Mhz trap filter, I guess.
Usually this filter is to remove the color subcarrier (either 4.43Mhz for PAL or 3.58Mhz for NTSC) from the composite signal to generate Y/Luminance.
I can't tell you why there's a button for this when most multistandard sets activate the right filter automatically without problems.
>>2759485
interesting.
>>2758716
>>2759068
The 20L5 seems a bit overvalued here. A normal PVM + a PC CRT would give you the same functionality, while splitting the usage hours between the two. 20L5 just has the convenience of only needing one monitor.
>>2758694
I recently got myself an 20m2mdu. After I turned the sub contrast in the service menu to max I used the 240p test suite to do the fine tuning. After I adjusted the black level, I used 100 IRE option to set the right contrast.
So here is my question: How normal is it for a PVM to bleed the whites over the scanlines when the contrast is set high? As I said previously I set the sub contrast to max so I would get everything out of the display if I liked. When I turn the contrast knob over the middle postion, the scanlines in the 100 IRE pattern start to fade away. When turned all the way they are no more visible... but this only affects the middle of the screen, the scanlines around it only get a little bit thinner.
Is this already a sign for a worn out tube? The PVM is in great cosmetic condition and when I opened up to clean it... there was no visible dust, so I`m kinda confused.
>>2759654
How so?
It appears that the 20L5 is providing bigger thicker more noticeable scanlines than either the PVM or PC CRT.
>>2759686
>How normal is it for a PVM to bleed the whites over the scanlines when the contrast is set high
Normal. Brighter lines are thicker.
>>2758836
that room layout and color reminds me of my summer camp where it was the first time I saw.
1: a dot matrix printer (we literally spent hours printing things and looking at them laughing)
2: an NES that had a game that I've never seen anyone talk about or review. It was some weird wrestling game where the opponent would turn redder and redder the more you beat him, limbs would fly off and shit it was really weird.
>>2759734
I looked through google couldn't find that game its kind of like pit fighter but it was like in a boxing ring. Also I remember an 8-bit andre the giant lookalike being int the game. but by no means was he named andre or made out to be him.
it wasnt an official wwf game or anything like that...
>>2759730
>dot matrix printer
But I guess a BVM woudn`t do this?... and if a PVM would do this even when the lines aren`t that bright, it would mean it got heavy usage?
I have no idea what I should look at to tell if a PVM has a high hour count or not.
>>2759827
Ignore the dot matrix printer quote
>>2758836
Clearly that's an HD PROJECTOR MULTI SCAN SYSTEM. Probably works great with a HIGH DEFINITION GRAPHICS 16-BIT SEGA GENESIS or an AV INTELLIGENT TERMINAL HIGH GRADE MULTIPURPOSE USE 16-BIT MEGA DRIVE SEGA.
>>2759204
You should be able to adjust color saturation on your display to get dull composite color levels if you want. By sticking to composite you're not just losing color data, you're losing image detail.
>>2759701
>Plus I never got rear-projection TVs... they always look so dim.
Projectors of any type are not ideal for use in bright ambient light conditions. If you stick one in a room that's kept dark like a cinema or arcade you can get incredible results.
what brightness and contrast should one pick on a normal crt tv? everything around the middle? I feel like my reds and greens are too bright.
>>2759845
Rear projection tvs need that lenticular panel that absorb a lot of light and restricts viewing angles.
A crt projector does fare better.
>>2759854
Get your room as bright as you will normally have it most of the time, then calibrate each input to your taste or using a disc/test set. Every display is different, even different units of the same model, so it's not possible to give preferred settings that apply to everything.
>>2759858
I had strong feels when the last holdouts of CRT RP finally stopped shipping new units. I almost bought one just to commemorate the event, like I did with CRT direct views.
>>2759827
>But I guess a BVM woudn`t do this?
Depends on the BVM.
>if a PVM would do this even when the lines aren`t that bright, it would mean it got heavy usage?
Or the convergence isn't perfect. Usage hours don't mean as much as you think it does. Most PVMs and BVMs will have high hours.
Is there any high-end manufacturer that makes monitors targeted at gaming videophiles that has all the best quality input sources, even though many of them are being/have been phased out by mainstream manufacturers? I feel like there's money to be made there.... or if someone's had this idea already, there's MY money to be GIVEN there.
>>2760076
I'm talking up to modern 1080p HDMI standards, but still has all the old top-tier video inputs too.
Yeah. I know to get that shit to all work on the same unit is super complex and probably wicked expensive... but does it exist?
>>2759845
That would explain part of it. I've only ever seen them at displays in stores where the environment is really bright. Nobody I knew had RPTV's
>>2760091
I've seen and watched/played on plenty of them. In the right environment they are great, though I always stuck to direct view.
muh crt.
Absolute best 480p picture I've ever seen. Sucks for most /vr/ though. Resolution is too high so it fucks with low res geometry and it's getting old, not a bright as it used to be so depending on the interlaced signal it looks too dark.
Thinking of picking this up. Do you guys know if this model has a VGA output? Also I'm guessing there's no S-Video the vendor didn't seem to quick to respond
>>2760326
It doesn't do 240p
>>2759450
Fixed.
Fucking do it right next time.
Love the lines, though. And yeah, it's to do with a Y/C filter on composite video, as someone else said.
>>2759298
>>2759343
What game is that?
Also, yeah, to me thick lines are preferable. Closer to the arcade look.
I've got a 20L5 and I would love a BVM for the better convergence controls and easier calibration. But I'm pretty happy since my monitor was free.
>>2759204
If you think the comparison is bad, then you should check out some of Drakon's composite vs. RGB images. So I made comparisons to my own composite video.
The bottom is my composite capture. Note that Drakon's composite capture has horrible black level settings and throws everything off. Also, the buildings are colored differently.
>>2760509
another comparison. Very apparent here.
>>2760513
still horrid
>>2760516
My personal favorite.
>>2760518
This is hilarious to me.
I have more, but I won't flood anymore unless people want them.
>>2760519
CRT pic so I'm definitely on topic.
>>2760519
>>2760518
>>2760516
>>2760513
I like these comparisons. Nothing much is going on in here. Applicable content is fine, go for it.
Also I cant WAIT for RetroRGB's AVS 8-bit console to come out. It is a shame that it is HDMI only.
What would it take to get the HDMI only to a PVM. HDMI to Component adapter? Would those with older PVMs then also need to downscale it from 720 to 480?
>>2760509
As I've stated earlier, Popful Mail (Sega CD version, with the Working Designs English Dub).I've seen enough of gametechusa's videos to know all about Drakon's work. Look out for the trademark hot glue mark of authenticity. Don't get me wrong though, composite's bound to look shit either way.
>>2760546
>retroRGB
No. Just no. The comparisons are sometimes severely misinformed and the information given is usually intended to sell something. Additionally, it has some false information - it claims RGB from the SNES mini is superior to the 1chip SNES, when they use the exact same motherboard. The only difference is that the mini doesn't have components connecting RGB to the multi-out port. (http://retrorgb.com/snesversioncompare.html)
>HDMI to RGB?
You could use HDFury or similar, but only if you have a L5 (PVM 14L5 or 20L5). You would not have the '240p' scanline effect, but you'd have a CRT. You can't expect it would offer below 480p, so for most PVM's you'd need to go to 480i or 240p somehow. 480i is what you'll find, and it looks horrible on CRT's. Also note that HDMI is going to give you the same colors you'd get off of an RGB mod, so you'd be paying so much money that you should just be getting a PVM and using composite (or if you need it, RGB.)
The reason that nothing can match the composite NES colors is that the NES does not make RGB values for colors anywhere. All its colors exist in a different colorspace (YIQ, closely related to YUV). You can only approximate the conversion between YIQ/YUV and RGB, so since HDMI also is a digital encoding of RGB, it will share the same flaws as any RGB mod.
And I've not heard of this 'AVS' - is it another product that destroys working famicoms for their CPU and PPU, puts them in a new case, and calls them 'new' and sells them at incredible profits? A la Analogue NT?
>>2760551
Composite on the NES is acceptable since it's the most the NES can possibly output and RGB is never generated internally. Same for the Atari 2600.
For most other consoles, I agree.
Trying to learn more about modifying old school consoles to get the best pictures possible. It's rough because a lot of people who know this shit try to keep it secret like they're in some kind of secret treehouse fort bullshit.
Might you gents point me toward some good sources to learn from?
>>2760629
What consoles are you trying to get it out of?
With the NES there is actually a lot of work and computing involved in deriving an RGB signal.
With some consoles I can help though.
>>2760629
use a PC and emulators, you aren't fit for our secret club
fuck off
>>2760086
I think theres some Sony OLED monitors that do that, apparently they have really good built in scalers for older video resolutions.
>>2760224
Before the picture was getting too dark, how did it handle 480i signals? Was there a lot of lag when playing them?
>>2760645
Have fun with that though. Those are easily worth several thousand on eBay since they're currently in use by the same sorts of people that abandoned the BVM/PVM CRTs we're using. The broadcast, presentation, color accuracy, video mastery application users these were designed for. No idea what their longevity is either though since the "O" in OLED implies organic components.
>>2760635
You're not sadpanda. Why not help a noob out?
>>2760646
No lag at all. Just the characteristic large scanlines in titles due to the higher resolution.
>>2760573
I'm talking over my head since I'm not a tech guy:
Retro RGB's AVS 8-bit is an FPGA NES clone that is outputting 720p by way of HDMI out only. I believe it is using all original parts and not using working famicom parts, but dont quote me on that.
I have an Component to VGA adapter+Extron Super Emotia that I use for my Xbox 360, Wii U and Gamecube to downscale component 480p to 240p.
If I tossed that RetroUSB outputting 720p to an HD Fury to get it down to 480p component, I think it would work through the above written setup.
I cant remember the link, but I vaguely remember someone on a message board doing something similar with a Neo Geo X Gold and Ouya set up.
>>2760629
NES was one of the consoles I was thinking of tinkering with, til I found out that its component-out was indeed native, and not derived from some other encoding method. I'm not currently in the market to be dropping cash on all new boards to install in the system.
I have a Japanese PC Engine Duo-R that I was thinking of at least bumping up to S-Video. Tho from what I'm reading, it makes more sense to go RGB with it. Sadly, only my Asus LCD monitor supports those sync rates, and it has no built-in aspect ratio adjustment like a good monitor should.
Also, would love to cobble together some kind of RGB converter, so I might partake of the finer things without dropping the dough on an old or professional grade monitor. Got a couple old CRT VGA monitors in the basement that need to be put to use.
Still researching tho. That last idea may be a bad one, if converting said signals makes them way worse by nature.
>>2760684
*composite-out was native.
You have a lot to learn.
>>2760684
VGA monitors work at higher horizontal sync rates than TV's and older monitors.
You might be out of luck with those, unless you want to invest in a scaler, which still fucks with the signal and won't look the same.
>>2760487
It's the phones man I really do feal dumb everytime it flips it but Ive posted others that didnt flip. In the preview its the right way in windows but posted it flips..
> yeah I researched it a lil bit basically if youre not in PAL(land) than 3.85 usually and if in PAL 4 is the standard.
and thnx
>>2760714
It's called an EXIF tag and you're supposed to fix it before uploading. GIMP can tell you if an image is rotated in exif and offers to fix it, and programs like jpegtran can do it too.
>>2760714
3.85 or 4 what?
>>2760717
4.43 Mhz
the other standard.,
>>2760727
what is happening at 4.43 mhz, though?
>>2760710
I do! That's what I'm saying. Thanks for helping, though. I now know 0% more than I did before!
>>2760739
yeah the color carrier freq. even though a TV that would usually have the ability to swap between the two was pretty nifty Not sure how many needed or had a switch, seems silly, I think many did it on its own.
>>2760750
>>2760710
>>2760684
Holy fucking piss. I'm a double idiot.
I JUST NOW caught that I said component rather than composite. I'm usually the one my friends roll their eyes at when I correct them on mixing up the 2, and have a near shit-fit when I hear composite and component pronounced as comp-uh-sit and comp-uh-nent.
>>2760759
>have a near shit-fit when I hear composite and component pronounced as comp-uh-sit and comp-uh-nent.
You have autism if the way people pronounce words bothers you this much.
>>2760764
yeah it seemed like a pretty good internet banter than it started getting odd.
>>2760750
Composite video encodes a color video signal over a single wire. The video signal consists of a monochrome signal with a slightly varying phase to indicate coloration. It was developed to maintain compatibility with black and white TV's when color was being introduced in consumer televisions.
RGB is another method. because Red/Green/Blue are the primary colors of light that all other visible colors can be made with. Some sets allow you to input red/green/blue signals directly to the tube, which contains three electron guns: a red gun, a green gun, and a blue gun. Those aim at corresponding phosphors on the face of the tube that light in red, green, and blue. These combine when viewed at a distance to form other colors. RGB usually consists of 3 wires for the 3 colors, plus one or two sync lines. Some combine horizontal and vertical sync (for TV's, horizontal is 15.734 kHz in NTSC, 15.625 in PAL, vertical is 60hz in NTSC, 50hz in PAL) into 'cSync' - this is what most game consoles do (such as the SNES). It is typically referred to as Hsync and Vsync when split, as in VGA, which uses RGB.
Component video has a few meanings but usually is equated to 'ypbpr' - where you have a luminance signal (black and white image) Y, a Pb signal (same as Cb in pic), and a Pr signal (same as Cr). All three are on different wires. Y also contains the 'sync' information that tells a CRT where to position the electron guns that paint an image on the face of a tube. Y is essentially composite video without any color. Pb and Pr together act to refer to points on the CbCr color space (see picture). Analog voltages are used to pinpoint a color to be displayed on the screen, on top of the monochrome Y image. As the guns draw Y, a circuit in the TV checks Pb and Pr to determine what color should be given to the monochrome signal, and the Y, Pb, and Pr are converted to the RGB color space so they can be displayed.
Don't feel bad if you have trouble understanding, I did too.
>>2760573
>480i is what you'll find, and it looks horrible on CRT's.
For games, there's no better display for 480i than a CRT that displays it natvely.
>The reason that nothing can match the composite NES colors is that the NES does not make RGB values for colors anywhere.
This is false, but only because I think you're conflating two separate concepts.
First, a composite signal will always crush color data in addition to luma detail. Standard NES output is composite (direct or RF), so that crushed color data is what most people, including the programmers, might consider the expected output. Not using an arbitrary colorspace natively, RGB or YUV or otherwise, doesn't matter. If you want to replicate the crushed color output of the NES composite while using any accurate RGB mod, you can probably do it display-side by undersaturating color and playing with brightness, contrast, and tint. Basically JFMSU.
Second, since the NES isn't standardized on RGB (specifically), different mods take different approaches in pullling RGB (specifically) from it. The best way would be a simple internal colorspace transcode from YIQ to RGB directly from the PPU with no palette remapping. This is mathematically and electrically trivial, nigh instantaneous, and exact (lossless). You would never see color distortion or "wrong" colors as a result of this method as long as you calibrate your display. If you take that RGB output and shove it through a composite encoder as bad as the one that's standard in the NES, you'll end up with the same washed out colors you'd expect directly from the NES.
>since HDMI also is a digital encoding of RGB
HDMI is colorspace-agnostic. You can run anything through it as long as your source device and display are compatible.
>>2760790
you are a moron. I was referring to downscaling 240p content (like NES games) that have been rendered in 720p in a way that a PVM will display it. He wanted to do that and I told him that 480i is what he'd be able to get equipment for - and he would want 240p.
>>2760790
Additionally, I did not say that composite was crisp and clean. I said that it created colors in a way that the RGB color space is mathematically unable to reproduce consistently. I am an engineer who has done video processing work for over four years.
You're right that HDMI is colorspace agnostic, but the HDMI NES mod outputs in the RGB color space.
>>2760764
>>2760770
Relax bromen. "Shit fit" was an attempt at comical exaggeration. Clearly it was a flop.
>>2760771
I know the basic differences. Honest. I just said component when I meant composite.
I did that thing where you say what you're thinking rather than what you mean. Psychologists call it a "Freudian Dick."
>>2760812
>freudian dick
Heh, I get it. That was clever.
(correct term is Freudian Slip, though)
>>2760790
You don't get it.
The RGB arcade PPU's some nintendo arcade machines used defined RGB colorspace values for each color in the table. The composite PPU used in consumer NES units however did not. It would generate a phase shift that differed depending on the bytes in the PPU's cache area (where palette values are stored). These values are not RGB values, they are simply single bytes (0xFF, for example). The color creation is done in an analog path, and at no point is a color explicitly assigned to a value in microcode. For that reason, no RGB colorspace can 100% accurately define what a 'red' color is - only approximate. Nestopia's canonical palette does a pretty nice job, but there is still a difference between it and the image you'll get on a TV. To make matters worse, no two TV's interpret the phase shift exactly the same and so the colors will look slightly different depending on what TV you use.
That is why RGB is never going to be 100% color accurate. Though it will definitely look sharper and it definitely looks close on a lot of TV's, depending on how they would be decoding the equivalent composite video.
(some of the above taken from some stuff Kevin Horton/kevtris wrote up a while back. I hang out on nesdev a lot.)
>>2760821
The famicom titler PPU generates RGB colors, and has less compatibility problems than PC10 PPU. It's probably closer to regular PPU colors but I wonder if anyone bothered using it as a base...
>>2760813
I know it is.
You see what I did there? Eh?
windows 10 and GIMP dont mix all too well..
>>2760771
Incidentally, for some old series (like Doctor Who and Dad's Army) of which we though we only had black and white recordings, we have been able to recover colour recordings precisely because the chroma signal shows up in the black and white signal as a kind of pattern (called chroma dots or chroma crawl).
>>2759204
I agree.
After getting a hardware famicom I've sort of started thinking that there's something about the composite "look" that makes NES/FC look like NES/FC. To the point I now emulate NES games with NTSC filter set to composite if possible... (It's still off though, since that filter doesn't do the dot crawl right, since the NES/FC compensates for that so you only really see it while moving.)
Still wish I could get rid of jail bars on my av-mod Famicom though. (I've seen the output of a Twin Famicom and it's much better and cleaner.)
>>2760684
RGB-mod PC Engine looks great, man.
>>2759204
The NESRGB does show megaman skin color as it should, a kind of light peach, and not yellow.
>>2760867
Only with the right color pallete selected, but yes, that's correct.
>>2760880
Which one?
>>2760889
Natural or Improved (FCEUX) pallete.
GametechUS goes discusses the different palletes several times in his videos. Example: https://youtu.be/Fb9J6WuT534?t=154
>>2760771
thx anon, I found that explanation helpful and informative, particularly about component video.
>>2759298
I'm glad you sniped it from me, I still haven't opened my D20F1U I got a week after that auction ended.
Great pictures.
just picked up a PVM for $10. real nice condition. is there really no way to get RBG from NTSC Wii without modding component to VGA and running it through a sync to RBG? it sounds like overkill when the S-Video already looks pretty good. I want my Melee to look as sexy as possible.
>>2761197
I count myself lucky to have a standard def CRT TV with component-in. Wii... and by extension all the homebrew and emulators... look perfect on there. Snagged that beauty up around 2004 right before the advent of HDTVs.
>>2761267
I also have a nice CRT with component-in. would that really look better than S-Video on a PVM?
I just wanted to get some clarity.
Is it that the more "TV Lines" a monitor touts the "bigger"/more noticeable the scanlines appear to the naked eye?
>>2761278
There's no harm in trying.
At worst you'll have another set of cables around, but how is that a BAD thing for a videophile?
>>2760827
no, because the titler's expensive as fuck.
>>2760852
My famicom has very very slight jailbars.
Did you do the mod yourself? If so, I might be able to share some tips.
>>2761368
I meant measure the color generated and then implented those values.
Though during my search I've seen Titler PPUs being gutted out for use in Famicom/NES ...
Right now I have this Commodore 1702 monitor hooked up to my AV Famicom. Is there some way I can hook up my tower (not in the picture) to the composite inputs on the monitor? Would the latency make it unusable?
>>2761416
Hello from /g/, where this was also posted. Welcome to famicom club
>>2761416
There are VGA to s-video or composite adapters of sorts but they tend to be expensive. Still, it's a possibility.
>>2761439
yeah, sure, if you have a thorough understanding of japanese.
Or do what I did which also reduced jailbars massively and raise pin 21 of the PPU from the PCB and get composite out that way.
>>2761492
pics and google trad helps. It was on this page that I finally understood the expansion sound issue with AV Famicom, and how to fix.
>>2760224
What model is that, Lacie 22 Blue IV? If its that I guess I'd need to get VGA cables for my 6th gen systems and Wii?
Can someone give me the rundown on what's the best cables to purchase for an N64 and a GameCube?
>>2761363
at worst I'll be quite a bit of money and time in debt. if the jump from S-Video to RGB really isn't worth it then i'm not interested
>Got PVM for free
>Was sitting in a nasty ass warehouse
>Covered in dead bugs
>Bring it home, open up
>Dead bugs inside too
Is there any way I can clean this out WITHOUT taking everything apart? It's got a bunch of what look like maggot shells. There's not a TON but they are scattered across the main board, probably a dozen or so.
>>2761552
My IBM terminal was like that.
Best way is sadly to take the frame off (exposing the internals) and blasting it with air from an air compressor.
I know that's not what you wanted to hear - it's horrible taking stuff apart and not knowing what you'll find.
What model PVM is it, out of curiosity?
>>2761548
N64 without mods:
S-video nintendo AV cable.
Gamecube: if it has a digital out port, the $200 Nintendo component cable.
>>2761567
>Compressed air
Well that doesn't sound too bad, I already had the cover off, but I didn't want to actually start disassembling the thing.
It's a 20M2, it's in decent condition with the ick aside.
>>2761573
I think a can of compressed air may be too small (not sure though).
My best 'debugging' experience was with a massive ingersoll rand air compressor where I used to work repairing old audio equipment. Saw a lot of scary shit in there.
>>2761552
If you don't take it apart, you will never know if you got them all out.
>>2761573
why do you have to disassemble it?
Taking off the shell should be good. But I'd need to see the inside of the TV to be sure, and based on your description I'm not sure I want to.
>>2761590
I can see inside but I can't get my hand in all the tight spots where the shit is.
>>2761594
Ah.
Well, in any case. a vacuum might do the trick. If compressed air doesn't, try a vacuum.
>>2761597
Bad idea.
Introducing a vacuum into an electronics environment is a recipe for disaster. Unless it's specifically equipped for antistatic applications, a vacuum can generate static voltages capable of damaging sensitive CMOS ICs and components on the monitor's chassis + any other input cards/options that might happen to be in its proximity.
I'd recomment what >>2761578 mentioned and use a dedicated air compressor if the pressure out of a typical office-use can is too low for that particular chassis.
>>2761628
This is true.
However, I have never encountered such conditions when vacuuming in a humid environment. YMMV.
>>2760519
Somehow forgot this Drakon RGB vs Drakon's bullshit composite capture vs. a real composite capture comparison.
>>2761551
Well shit.
If you haven't already made the decision about converting the signal and what not, and the cost and time are a concern, then definitely try the component route first and see if you're satisfied.
I randomly bought one of these ps1/2 RGB cables... thoughts? it was so cheap I figured what the hell
>>2761763
if it's shielded, it'll do the job.
>>2761537
Yeah it's VGA only has two on the back.
Just a rebadged Mitsubishi 2070SB
>>2761416
The best way to do it is with a video card capable of outputting 15kHz signals (that's 240p, effectively).
crt_emudriver is easiest, followed by Soft15kHz, CRU and Powerstrip, and after that, Linux. (Those last three might be able to force video modes on cards that won't work with the first two, i'm not sure)
For crt_emudriver, read this carefully - http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=65
The active adapters mentioned by other anon will work, but won't look anywhere near as nice - IMHO to the point they're not worth bothering with. They will only output 480i, and scaling 240p to 480i looks bad even on the Wii, which is legendary for how well it handles video signals. This means anything below 6th gen emu (PS2/Xbox/GC/DC) will look bad even if everything else goes right.
>>2761551
PAL N64 needs a special S-Video cable, if you're on PAL.
>>2761628
Anyway, a vacuum is far weaker than an air-compressor... stick to the air compressor.
>>2761763
Is it even using RGB? Looks pretty thin. The description is right, but if it's only wired for composite you can complain and get your money back. Shielding will help, but if it's not shielded just keep it away from power cables where you can.
>>2762141
I disagree - linux is better than windows and so therefore best.
Otherwise, agreed.
>>2762060
Forgive my stupidity but since its a PC CRT how is it able to handle resolutions below 480p? I thought 480p was the lowest PC CRT monitors (like yours) could do, and don't they not support interlaced resolutions or am I missing something here?
>>2762527
He's using 480p.
Trinitron is life
>>2762663
Diamondtron is New Life +
I doubt anyone is interested, but I've been posting about using S-Video on system and trying out Famiclones on my PVM.
While out at a flea market looking for a new S-Video cable, I picked up a Retron 3 in really bad shape out of a garbage pile and paid 3 bucks for it.
I had just bought a Super Retro Trio a few days earlier and said meh, why not.
Long story short, Retron 3's S-video on both SNES and Genesis as darn near perfect. 0 jail bars whatsoever.
Super Retro Trio's is dog shit for Genesis. Tons of jail bars.
Future updates to come.
>>2762454
Well, I did say easiest. For those of us not using Linux, that's not Linux.
Any good guides to modelines in Linux, btw?
>>2762141
>>2761416
Shit, you did say composite. Well, mostly that's just going to look like ass whatever you do, sadly. Will the 1702 take RGB somehow? That works well, as described in the post above.
>>2762141
>>2761932
>>2761763
i have said cable and its fine really
the only bad experience i had buying cheap cables was with the wii
pic related
New (to me) working 1988 RCA floor model CRT. Can't wait to get my NES hooked up to it.
>>2763003
>guides to modelines on linux?
I figured it out in a couple hours just experimenting with custom values on a multisync monitor.
here's a cool spreadsheet I found, though www.fl-eng.com/_lib/doc/vesa.xls
Also, there's a command line program called 'cvt' that will generate basic signals. You can expand on those with a bit of experimentation and modification.
>>2763003
I am not that guy, but from what I remember the 1702 only supports composite and Y/C (s-video style but not over a 4 pin mini-DIN connector).
>>2762723
>Retron 3 s-video is great i mentioned last thread no jailbars no faint white line in the center of snes it finds alot of use as my test system for 240p test and shit since the snes powerpak works on it
>>2763524
Thanks
I guess all the "Retron" hate got to me on this board. I have one Retron 3 at my vacation house but wasn't expecting to desire another.
When I started shopping around the Retron hate and wanting to try NES in S-video swayed me to the Super Retro Trio. But MAN its Genesis in S-Video is almost unplayable.
Glad I found my trash picked Retron 3 for cheap. Don't feel so bad, about paying for the SRT since its pack in "SNES styled" Genesis Controllers are pretty great and I got another set of S-video cables.
What's the best of the best when it comes to computer Crts? Im talking resolution, refresh rate, pixel ratio... is there some sort of database with this kind of information?
>>2764475
NEC
anyone have any Genesis Nomad setups on their CRT?
>>2762454
I think linux will help more cards spit out the right resolution, but I believe the linux versions of mame have more lag. At least that's what I've been told.
Thinking about getting pic related but the guy wants $100. Kinda pricy. Would this be a decent purchase? How would I set up audio with something like this? Any advice would be highly appreciated. /1
So I've been arguing with myself over which one of the two CRTs I have I should keep. One small and crisp as hell and the other big and good for multiplayer. Then I had an enlightenment. I can just keep both!
Is this a slippery slope?
>>2758903
Why does the marquee look like it says Ninja Assbutt
>>2764907
Considering that CRTs will die eventually, it's good to have spares.
>>2764949
Yeah man he doesn't whatsoever. I may just have to play on a good old CRT tv.
>>2765074
I'm just hoping the guy with the 14L2's will respond.
>see over priced shit I want
>message
>get reply
>haggle attempts get shot down, give up.
>see ok priced shit I want, don't even care about haggling
>message
>nothing
every damn time.
>>2765085
every fucking time.
I wonder if the guy with the 14l2 actually has 5 of them. If so I'm tempted to try that too.
>>2765240
He just messaged me. Said he has two, but I'm going to pick one up from him. And he's in Mansfield apparently. I don't know what kind of hours they have, but they came out of a church, so its probably fairly low unless they got them used.
>tfw finally going to have a PVM
YEARS
>>2765301
>why not be a bro and try to hook up/set up with >>2765240
Its a craigslist ad. I know he's seen it since he said:
>I wonder if the guy with the 14l2 actually has 5 of them
If he's interested in one of them, then he can email the guy. What do you want me to do? Should I say "hey I know this guy on a website called 4chan that might want one"? unless >>2765240 sends an email on his own, then there's nothing for me to do other than point out they exist, which I already did.
>>2765323
I thought >>2765074 said he has emailed the guy and gotten no response.
It can be a pain when craigslist sellers either dont see or dont respond to your email where you ask to buy their stuff.
You should put up a throwaway email where >>2765240 can email you and coordinate to go together and each pick one of the 14L2s up.
Maybe he'll pay you like a $20 fee for helping him get the CRT he wants.
A few CRT threads ago another guy tried to help me grab a PVM and I did the same thing I just described above. Only reason it didnt work out was because he was too busy to pick it up and I didnt want to travel for an 8 inch screen.
I still thanked him for his attempted help. He was a cool guy. Thanks anonbro
>>2765282
Sweet man I'm gonna send him an email again. When are you gonna go meet him?
>>2765336
>I thought >>2765074 said he has emailed the guy and gotten no response.
different ad
>It can be a pain...
I know
>can email you and coordinate to go together
>Maybe he'll pay you like a $20 fee for helping him get the CRT he wants
I get what you're saying, but that would probably just make things a pain in the ass for the both of us.
>>2765386
I'm going to try making it out there tomorrow.
>>2765530
Cool. I got a hold of him and I'm meeting him up as well. Son we just joined the PVM master race
This SONY PVM-20M2MDU ends up being 350$ (Canadian) in total on Ebay? Is it worth it or is that a really bad deal
>>2766112
Prices are creeping upwards as more people learn about PVMs, but that's still a little high. I'd say that set, in good condition, is worth about $CA200-220 right now. That doesn't mean the seller is just going to hand it over for that money, however.
>>2766112
I figured as much, still a very tempting over considering I don't have a car and I have some disposable outcome.
>>2766173
jesus christ $250 canadian for a 20m2
i feel sorry for your anon, if you were a few months earlier you could have had one for like $80
>>2766178
Times are tough. I should keep searching for a place locally I think.
http://www.tekyard.com/DesktopDefault.aspx
PVMs
>>2766180
It's gonna be painful, but they've reached such a popularity that the price hardly is worth it. I got my 20L2MDU for $80 a place 2 hours from me.
Just keep hitting up that canadian craigslist or what be it.
Do you guys recommend me to get the framemeister and play retro games on my HDTV?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43dzrCAfU3A
>>2766178
Who started this? Did some mainstream hip gaming site run an article? Did egoraptor go on a speech on GameGrumps about how much he loves PVMs or something?
>>2766592
It depends what you want.
If you want the best image quality then a LCD with a scaler like that beats any CRT.
However, a cheap ass TV will really add to the already high diminishing returns you're getting by going to a RGB set up with a XRGB. The XRGBs are very high quality pieces of kit though. Well worth their price.
If you want the quirks of a CRT then the XRGBs wont give you that.
>>2766595
No idea. Closest I've ever seen was a (fairly good) article I saw on Tested. It talks about BVMs, PVMs, Consumer CRTs, Scalers, video formats, and pluses and minuses of each option. Other than that, there's all the articles about getting RGB from consoles that may briefly mention those monitors.
http://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/456719-best-crt-retro-games/
My best guess is a few people on ebay got wind of the monitor's value and decided to jack it up, hoping for a high sell. After that, I the people who don't know what it's worth probably would then check the prices of existing listings and base it off of those listings.
Then again, I've never shopped for a PVM and I AM the sucker who payed $415 USD + shipping for my BVM D20F1U, so take from that what you will.I really need to take some more photos, too. Keio Flying Squadron, anyone?
>>2766834
>I AM the sucker who payed $415 USD + shipping for my BVM D20F1U
my max bid was US$409 you fucker
so funny it was a bid war between two /crt/ fags
>>2766595
>>2766834
I've been into PVM and RGB systems for the past few years. Things that have seem to contribute are that Tested.com article, Youtube user Phonedork, The Back In My Play podcast, and CRT/Scanline fetish threads on various message boards.
Additionally getting into RGB scart and/or Framemeisters will naturally start to push you into the PVM neighborhood. The My Life In Gaming, GameSack, and AdamKoralik Youtubes have both done episodes spotlighting RGB scart pushing it into the forefront. As soon as you go down the RGB rabbithole PVMs are not far behind.
Not to mention that HDRetroVision component cables have been funded successfully via kickstarter so that is bringing even more people into the RGB fold...again which will push people into PVMs.
Does video quality drop if you use long cables? I ask since I'm contemplating having a smaller TV set up on my computer desk, which would be fed from a 2-output switchbox in my entertainment center on the other side of the room.
>>2766896
>>2766896
Across a typical room in a residence, likely not. The distances that a video signal would require something like a repeater is something more used in large open areas like a theater lobby with presentation monitors or something of that sort. Extron makes repeaters for RGB/HDMI that handle that sort of thing but I believe you have to run a cable quite a few meters loss before you start to run into attenuation issues.
Now I personally would suggest short to mid-size cables since that's less trouble with cable management.
At any rate, your switchbox would be more likely to attenuate your video signal in any case (depending on how it was designed/manufactured).
Post your /vr/ battlestations.
Feelio when no /CRT/bros to meet up with and move monitors together.
>>2766943
>You will never enlist the help of /crt/ to move a 32" BVM, only to be murdered for it
>>2766967
FEELERINO
>>2766943
you know, i almost posted the other day. i'm about to redo my setup to include the d20f1u that's still in the box it was shipped in... could use a hand.
but i don't want to get MDK'di know there's rochester, ny bros here too.
35$, worth it?
>>2767069
its a flat screen, i say get a curved one for accurate geometry
>>2766932
Kay.
The PVM is a 1344Q that I got on ebay for 20 bucks locally.
The consoles are:
Mutilated Super Famicom with AV breakouts in the back (Luma sync)
Regular PS2 (Luma sync)
RGB Modded Core Grafx (Composite Video Sync)
Region Modded M1 Sega Genesis with a s-video modded 32X (Composite Video Sync)
ive since moved the boxes.
>>2767124
>$20 local
Good job anon.
>>2766932
Now if I could find a good spot to roll it into when I'm not playing, it would be perfect.
>>2767153
story of my life. I primarily use a 14" for personal use and then have to bust out a 20" pvm one a month or so for fighting games with friends. Only spare room i have for it is my bedside.
Found this at my local Salvation Army for $40, its resolution is 1800x1440, worth the money?
>>2767204
I think I used to have a monitor similar to that. I liked it back in the day.
Talk them down to $20 or something.
So I heard even shitty OC is accepted?
PVM-14L4
Game is Download on PC Engine.
Camera is a shitty compact thing that probably is about 13 years old or so. At least it takes better photos than the phone... If only I could convince it to up the shutter speed without having to turn flash on.
>>2767261
Rockman 5, on AV-modded famicom.
Previous picture is RGB-modded PCE, btw.
I've another PVM too, but none of the snaps on that turned out very good.
>>2767204
ask them if they or you can clean it before buying. $20 is the very max if those speckles are permanent damage in the tube coating.
>>2767261
>>2767263
And to really drive home the shitty aspect of my OC here is a shot with my fingers turning red desperately trying to cover the flash...
But it's just too darn bright.
>>2766932
Arrangement not final (please excuse the mess). I need to rotate most of this stuff to the left side of the room but I have to get rid of a large number of parts and devices to make space for it first.
On a side note, the BNC>BNC jumpers arrived.
>>2766973
I was able to lift mine out of the box (after undoing most of the bubble wrap) without too much hassle. The main thing is to expose the handles on the side since they provide excellent leverage to actually lift it. Of course, get someone to help if you aren't confident in your strength alone.
>>2767292
And I present to you, more scanlines on a 20-year old loli.
>>2767298
Seriously.
>>2767314
Doesn't sound out of the ordinary to me. Was the line like burn-in, a colored line, or just a thin black line going through it?
The line was colored. Also mobile browsing is broken as fuck.
>>2767325
if the monitor is fucked up don't buy it.
>>2767314
The three colors is something all sets do, it should be out of the raster range anyway. The menu jiggle is a thing as well, it happens when there is no input source/sync.
>>2767337
>rainbow line above the 16:9 image? Mine does that, too.
yeah that is normal
I got the monitor anyways. Offers the guy something from the starbucks we met in for the trouble. but he said no.
>>2767350
>Plugging in CRTs at starbucks to test them
You'd fit right in with the hipsters.
I got a problem with my Dreamcast, VGA only works on a monitor and not on an HDTV.
It wss his idea to meet there, besides it's a smart idea to meet in a crowded place like that.
>>2767364
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I just imagine it'd look funny to see someone hooking up old ass CRTs at a starbucks.
>>2767350
wait, the guy brings a pvm into a starbucks, plugs it in and when you lowball him he walks away without selling it to you?
fuck
>>2767276
Continuing with a shot from my PVM-14L2, you'll notice thinner scanlines because this one only boasts 600 TVL.
This one is in generally worse shape than my PVM-L4, it has some pretty noticeable geometry problems (I've managed to get rid of the worst by calibrating), and it grows/shrinks noticeable by brightness of the picture to the point were lines will look rather wavy if there is a lot of contrast in the picture.
Still I like the 600 TVL look more for some games.
>>2767359
Dreamcast uses "sync on green" which only makes it compatible with older monitors (all crt monitors and some older lcd monitors). IIRC...
>>2767427
He said he got the monitor anyways. I think it was more the "inconvenience" of forcing the seller to find an outlet in a starbucks to make sure the monitor works.
Im guessing that he offered to buy the seller a coffee or something for actually taking the time to plug it in and allow him to test it.
>>2767432
I asked this question earlier and never got an answer, but was looking for confirmation.
Do more TVL mean thicker scanlines?
>>2767306
So I forgot to mention it a while back but I had two pieces of what I think is a rack mount kit for the D20F1U. Since I haven't figured out how this is supposed to mount onto the monitor (probably need to check the service manual).
I'm curious if anyone here would be interested in these, because honestly I doubt I'm ever going to be getting a compatible rack for what these were designed for anyways.
Photo here: https://a.pomf.cat/khftkm.JPG
>>2767451
TVL means TV Lines, which is a term for CRT horizontal resolution (vertical? the one of left to right or the other way around anyhow). A 600 TVL screen will resolve 600 vertical bars. An 800 TVL screen will resolve 800 vertical bars.
Generally higher res screens will have thicker scanlines, and vice versa.
>>2767446
The Dreamcast uses regular H/V sync signals and not sync on green. The PS2 however does use sync on green when it's set up for VGA or RGB.
>>2767359
i had this problem until i used the mini gender converter thing that shipped with my cheapo chinese cables
some days i just get lucky and get a great shot of my EU trini, today was not one of these days
[electricity bill intensifies]
My setup started as a single monitor on that shelf next to my desk. It has since grown. Vectrex isn't usually on the desk but I thought I'd throw it there for the picture. The 15kHz whine when I took this was intense. Nearly impossible to get a picture of all the monitors at once.
>>2767124
That 32x.
>>2767127
Comfy
>>2767153
I wanted to do this but I have no room for it. Better I just have my stuff on a shelf by my desk.
>>2767280
I love seeing multiple monitor setups.
>>2766967
Thinking about buying the bvm 32" flat crt and the 20df1u. already own a bvm 20fl1u and want to add to the collection plus have a 480p capable monitor
Is everyone in this topic deliberately acting like an idiot or do you seriously not know fucking shit about CRT displays?
>>2767568
Liking the setup man
>>2767568
Hot setup, but you should pick up an ex studio VHS player.
>>2763056
I'd kill to have a woodgrain console TV with proper composite ports, or better yet svideo. Sucks that 99% of them are all RF only.
>>2767604
Any reason you specify that specific vhs player, I myself have been looking for a decent player since i no longer have one
>>2767610
Ex studio VHS players are like ex studio CRT monitors. They are better than the consumer stuff.
I forgot what the name of the sony ones are but I believe they are generally of high quality. I don't know terribly much about them though.
>>2767614
I have a consumer Sony VCR already but I'm always down for real studio equipment. Does anybody know any models?
>>2767450
>>2767427
> the guy brings a pvm into a starbucks, plugs it in and when you lowball him he walks away without selling it to you?
>Im guessing that he offered to buy the seller a coffee or something for actually taking the time to plug it in and allow him to test it.
No, I got it. my phone autocorrected so my last post looks kinda odd. The listing was $75 each for some 14L2's with a rack mounts attached, which I was totally fine with paying. The guy said to meet up at a starbucks he lives near so he could hook it up and show me that it worked. When I tested it out, the menu on the screen "jiggled" and there was that color line at the top, which I didn't know if that was normal or not, so I asked if he could run home and test the other one to see if it also did that. He instead returned with the last two PVM's he had left, and showed me both of them. But during the time he was gone, I had asked here if that was normal, and since you all said it was, I offered to buy the guy a coffee because I felt like a dick for making him do that for nothing.
Anyways, have a battlestation pic, since all the shots of the screens themselves are blurry jpegs.
ended up taking out the dslr, still cant get a nice shot
anyways its a ps2 via rgb scart playing sor2 off a 240p patched version of sonic gems collection
>>2767614
Ohhh you meant ex-studio as in used studio equipment thought "ex studio" was a brand name haha my bad
>>2767634
Meant to bring it up earlier but the menu will have that "jiggle" by default until you sync a source to it. At least that's how my 145FU works IIRC.
>>2767672
Yeah, I've figured out what the issue was by now. I was kinda worried when I got home, and hooked it up with s-video only to see that the "jiggle" was still there somewhat. But by the time I'd put a second s-vid cable from the output into my Toshiba for >>2767634 , it had gone away. Now I can't get it to come back. So I'm guessing it just needed to warm up a bit or maybe it needed something shoved in the output, or maybe I needed to give it a better sync, idk. Regardless, everything is working just fine. I'll have to get some adapters to hook up my Wii though.
>>2764528
thx
