Smogon VS VGC
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You are currently reading a thread in /vp/ - Pokemon
You are currently reading a thread in /vp/ - Pokemon
So I've played competitive pokemon for over 3 months now. Things I've learned so far is VGC is everything goes except for event mons, and Smogon is a carefully curated Tier listing which provides "fair" pokemon battles.
I'd like to get /vp/'s Thoughts on Smogon and VGC, why Smogon is hated by a crowd of VGC players and generally what started this hate for smogon?
PS, I'm a competitive Magic: The Gathering player clocking at close to 10 years worth of experience, and I have to say, the way smogon determines their banlist is rather exceptional.
Again, outside of a few shitters who couldn't battle their way out of a mexican kindergarten's cock fighting ring, most high level smogon and vgc players play both.
You'll only see this dumb rivalry here where baddies from both groups try to speak for the groups.
>>26831662
I've been bouncing back and forth of both right now, helping some friends with the International Challenge at the moment and playing OU singles casually with friends.
The only problem I have so far are personal ones, the ones not dictated by both sides. I breed pokemons for OU tier battles and end up using them in VGC which can be a blood bath against your pokes if you've done that before.
That said, I'd also like to know how do i initiate a smogon rules match outside of Showdown atm?
>>26831710
From my experience, 3/5 people doing 6v6 on cart will assume you are operating on smogon ruleset.
Other than that, it's just agreeing with someone beforehand.
>>26831710
Don't play Smogon on cart when you've got Showdown available. Cart is for Battlespot and VGC.
Smogon undoubtedly has the more cancerous fanbase.
If you think Smogon rules should apply to non-Smogon battles, then it's time to see a therapist about your autism.
>>26833610
this
>>26833610
Ow the edge
>>26831641
>VGC is everything goes except for event mons
Only 2016 has a messed up ruleset where everything is allowed, don't judge it on that
My understanding is that most of the Smogon hate on this board is caused by Verlis's shit opinions/lies and general misunderstandings. People don't understand that Smogon is the meta where you can use almost any Pokemon and win, and Verlis pretty much tricked them into thinking that it was the other way around.
I've also noticed that people just don't understand how the tiering system work. People don't understand that "banned" does not mean "cannot be used". People have called me a liar when I say that I use Mega Gengar, because again, they don't get how the tier system works.
The other problem is people thinking that Smogon is some sekrit council that all love stall and ban things that kill stall. This is absolutely retarded, considering the fact that plenty of things are banned because they make start better (Shadow Tag).
There's also the "Smogon players only use copy pasted sets from the Smogdex!" crowd. The problem is, the only players that do that are the < 1250 ladderer, and considering the fact that Anti-Smogon fags suck at comp, that's all they see.
But yeah, like I said, most of the hate is just because people misunderstand how Smogon works.
>>26833641
t. smogon dick sucker
Smogon fans are gay but the tiers are actually good and well thought for battling for fun (at least the lower tiers, never played ou)
>evade banned
smogon community full of autists
>>26833956
>most of the Smogon hate on this board is caused by Verlis's shit opinions/lies and general misunderstandings
No one here ever takes that retard seriously
Smogon has a ton of serious problems and the only people who don't see it are either brainwashed fanboys or people who haven't played there for very long
>>26833996
They look good on paper but when you actually play any of the tiers its just spamming whatever is on top of the charts that month, or using the team that has the most popularity on the forums.
Smogon fags spend much more time sexting the 9 year olds on showdown than they do actually battling. Go figure.
>>26834036
Of course it has problems, no metagame will ever be perfect. But it's still ten times better than VGC.
>>26834039
1100 detected
>>26834072
I think the smogon meta is trash, but that's not even the kind of problems I'm talking about
>>26834072
Right, because the people at the top of the ladder aren't using the same old teams copied from SPL or the world cup.
How's it feel to defend smogon, aka pedobear paradise, so hard?
Did they promise to voice you if you suck their dicks enough?
>>26833653
yeah VGC rules change each season. 2015 was everything except for mythicals and a handful of major legendaries, 2014 was Kalos dex only, 2017 will probably be Alola dex only, etc.
>>26834101
They aren't. Have you ever seen a high ladder match? Someone just topped the Ubers ladder a week ago with Rotom-H.
Also
>Y-you're gay!!! W-why don't you um... suck, some... uh.... dick!!? XDXD
>>26834097
Then what problems are you talking about?
>>26834101
It's tough to beat experienced players using a copy-paste team, because they'll have seen it a hundred times before and know how to play the matchup.
>>26834101
>being this assblasted because someone is a pedophile
t. victim
>>26834123
And how long until that team is spammed all over the ladder?
Smogon shits must be delusional if they think their meta is any good. Not only do they ban anything that is slightly good instead of adapting but they'll try to silence anyone who says "x" isnt broken and comes up with a valid argument.
If on a rare occasion they can't brain wash the masses with their propaganda then they'll just throw out all the votes and declare "x" officially banned.
Also are you implying that smogon ISNT filled to the brim with pedophiles and horrible people? How many scandals have there been in the past couple of years alone at that site?
>>26831662
Can confirm, battled one of the heads of Smogon Doubles at a VGC event.
careful everyone.
the smogon internet defense force is ringing their alarms.
they should be here in force any second now.
>>26834227
>>26834199
Dude seek help for your autism. That irrational hate is not normal
>>26834199
I'm just going to disregard the "Smogon bans things that they can't beat" because it's so ridiculous that it's practically an argument used to make fun of anti-smogon fags at this point.
But again, you think the Smogon meta is shit, but what exactly is better? And why?
>>26834254
>"Smogon bans things that they can't beat
So does smogon want us to forget about the mega gengar suspect test in which the lead (Fireburn?) threw out votes just to get it banned?
If they learned to adapt instead of banning the thing that just swept their copy/paste teams then perhaps the meta would be better.
Take a look at vgc, it has more diversity because the things that are deemed strong are played around instead of locked away leading to more pokemon and a more diverse metagame.
I would also like to point out that vgc bros are overall good people unlike the smogon pedos and their underage groupies that parrot every word.
vgc player here
only low ladder babbies hate smogon, most of the good players are indifferent about it, or play Doubles OU
It's the same way with Smogon; the good players either don't mind VGC or dabble in it themselves
you'd have to be pretty fucking new to see some 'dispute'
>>26834298
>mega gengar being remotely balanced
are you disabled? early XYOU had so many bans because a bunch of new megas were overcentralizing. What's hard to understand?
>>26831641
Smogon- they ban pokemon because they have no counters when in reality banned mons could have been a good counter. But theyll never know cuz they banned em.
>>26834298
>Take a look at vgc, it has more diversity because the things that are deemed strong are played around instead of locked away
Now that you said that, I guarantee somebody is going to post 2015 worlds top 8 or that one French regional from this season. VGC is fairly diverse overall, but honestly the inability to ban anything can really hurt the meta. See: Moody Dark Void Smeargle.
>>26834323
They tried banning mega gengar in UBERS by throwing away "do not ban" votes, shitlord.
Did you not know that about the site you worship?
>>26834304
Not entirely true, don't forget that the whole reason Nugget Bridge exists is because VGC players had to get the fuck away from Smogon's cancer
>>26834298
"Take a look at vgc, it has more diversity because the things that are deemed strong are played around instead of locked away leading to more pokemon and a more diverse metagame."
>>26834332
Yeah, lol. It's true though. Compare the top teams from any VGC tournament to any Smogon tournament and you will always see much more diversity from Smogon.
>>26834326
Do you have an example?
>>26834254
Aegislash is the ban that really made me realize that Smogon actually does ban things they simply don't like. It's far, far from a problematic Pokemon.
>>26834361
Nah, the main reason was that Smogon was always focused on singles. Once VGC was started and the official format was doubles, some players wanted to focus on that, so they split off.
>>26834381
has Smogon changed that much? Haven't played competitively in a few years but back when I did, the Smogon bans were often well researched and had good justifications
they were genuinely a lot better at balancing the game than GF ever was
>>26834377
Greninja
>in b4 greninja has no counters xD
>>26831641
Hating smogon is meme.
Also VGC is not balanced.
Like half of the team run Megamom, Smeargle, Primals, Aegislash, Xerneas, Landorus...
>>26834326
if a pokemon by itself is already overcentralizing and ontop of that is the only viable counter for another pokemon then for diversity's sake you should ban both rather than neither
>Not just playing however you want to play
>>26834403
Yes, now its all about someone high up being too retarded to counter a certain pokemon so they declare it the next suspect.
Then they'll make the discussion thread where anyone that says the current suspect isn't broekn will have their comment deleted, then be warned and possibly banned.
This leads to a hivemind where everyone voting is pressured to ban the suspect or be made fun of have their opinions discarded no matter how well thought they are.
>>26834416
VGC 2016* is not balanced
2014 and 2015 (yes despite Kang & genies jokes) were balanced, fun and rewarded skill
>>26834429
shame really, the whole unbanning and subsequent rebanning of deoxys-s back in the day was a fairly good process
sure it turned out eventually that he was to powerful but for different reasons than initially suspected
>>26834381
The ban for ghost sword I understand. It was my star player because it would sweep whole teams. 150 base attack that could be 150 defense is devastating. In ubers it gives fair game with other over powered mons.
Sorry for any mistakes because im on trashy mobile and cant check
>>26834457
It had hard counters and it along with mega mawile are in no way broken post ORAS.
Even if it was a problem back then todays meta can deal with it and keeping it banned just shows how much smogon just wants to stay in their little shell.
>>26834381
>posted as I spam Kings Shield
>>26834403
There's been a lot of controversial bullshit there in the last few years. Mega Gengar in ubers was literally rigged, and the Aegislash vote went shady when a bunch of people changed their vote to ban at the last second, showing evidence of hivemind circlejerk mentality
They've had a steady decline in overall player skill probably due to showdown becoming so popular in the mainstream. Meanwhile, Japan dominates VGC without needing to make their own rules
>>26834435
Something happened somewhere along the line in gen 5 (possibly the retirement of many old timers like Earthworm) that led to smogon changing their policies.
Not banning perma rain was a mistake even though it went against what the site stood for.
Form then it just spiraled down ward and now all we have there are babies who cant adapt to threats and children who take their word as gospel.
>>26834457
Aegislash should never sweep teams, it has to waste a slot on King's Shield meaning less coverage, and while 150 base atk is amazing its actual moves aren't that strong that balances it out
>>26834499
>Japan dominating VGC
lmao, only last year. Mark my words, world champ is going to be Euro.
>>26834499
while I haven't played in a while it does seem that the VGC format has heavy issues with variety
pokemon never has been a game that could properly function without a ban list, imagine if during gen 1 mewtwo wasn't banned, there would be literally zero reasons not to put him on your team
>>26834326
Literally this. I was confused why they banned Aegislash cause it's really easy to predict him
>>26834519
perma rain did seem ungodly powerful
I'd been running rain dance teams all the way through gen 3 and 4 and they always were highly competitive despite being tied to that rain timer
>>26834490
Mega mawile is also in ubers however (i dont know why since i dislike that mon)
However sword should probably be unbanned although special fire/ground attackers are a pain to have in a tier where chansey runs rampent
>>26834499
Well the Aegislash ban was bullshit, but fuck mega Gengar.
Mawile is was the thing that made me question it at first
>>26834457
Aegislash had several good sets, but each of them could be beaten. Yes, you had to keep it in mind and prepare for it while teambuilding, but that's true of any good OU pokemon. It should only be able to sweep a whole team if the opponent was completely unprepared.
>>26834552
Traditional VGC does have a ban list, it's just this year they decided to allow all the broken stuff to make it different from last year
hasn't turned out to be the best idea, looking at attendance numbers
>>26834630
Yeah they decided to try GS cup again like 2010, but it hasn't gone as well as that season did. Power creep (primals, xerneas, mega kang and mence) is partially to blame, although the presence of moody dark void smeargle is probably the worst thing.
Ban Sableye-Mega
There, now stall is 100x more manageable.
>>26834788
...Mega-Sableye is one of the best tools to beat stall. Magic Bounce to keep them from putting up hazards or status against you, knock off to remove leftovers, will-o-wisp to wear them down, and recover to heal off whatever pitiful damage they do with their one attacking move.
>>26834101
Guess you've never watched a high ladder match then.
>>26834367
Other than this retard, everybody knows that VGC teambuilding is choosing your favorite 6 from a list of 12. That's just how a meta for any game works.
>>26831641
>high up can't counter something simple like a mega mawile
>WOOOOOOW BAN IT TO A TIER WHERE IT'LL GET ZERO USE
Smogon is trash
>>26831641
Great post lmao!
The most ebin and pathetic attempt at baiting, alreadty dropped after reading
>VGC is everything goes except for event mons, and Smogon is a carefully curated Tier listing which provides "fair" pokemon battles
Good luck next time, Smogonfag or Showderp rusemaster.
>>26833956
>The other problem is people thinking that Smogon is some sekrit council that all love stall and ban things that kill stall. This is absolutely retarded, considering the fact that plenty of things are banned because they make start better (Shadow Tag)
Smogon has showed the opposite of this multiple time.
>There's also the "Smogon players only use copy pasted sets from the Smogdex!" crowd. The problem is, the only players that do that are the < 1250 ladderer, and considering the fact that Anti-Smogon fags suck at comp, that's all they see.
Another meme, literally same copypasted team selection that only changes through few rank ranges, still copypasted team party.
>>26834123
> Have you ever seen a high ladder match? Someone just topped the Ubers ladder a week ago with Rotom-H.
Another urban legend easily explained, the fact they do use so many copypasted teams and strategies only allows easier devoted cteams to abuse this trend, a bunch of people have proven this since at least Gen 5 and sometimes in Gen 4 metas. There were players who topped with normal Altaria in XY, uncommon Band Guts Heracross was easily able to put those Gen 5 OU Smogon teams in trouble for example and many other "shitmons" too, but hey, you are trying to say that using 1 niche mon out of 6 where the remaining 5 are the same mons from top 20 OU is actually innovating and incredible! Get a load of this guy!
>>26834924
>heatran+Clefable
>I'm going to set up stall on this powerful attacker
>WHAT!? IT TOOK ADVANTAGE OF MY INCESSANT NEED OF SNEAKY STONES AND SWEPT MY TEAM!? BAN IT!!
Smogon has quite a lot of pretentious kids on their front.
I started playing ubers recently and I was shocked by the fact that it's full of quirky teams XD, people insulting me for winning and reddit-tier "trolls".
Others tiers aren't as cancerous desu.
>>26834367
>posting 1 VGC season as proof
>posting 1 VGC season as proof with statistics related to only one region
You realize Asians and Western players always had different playstyles and strategies since at least Gen 4? Which is the most entertaining thing when they meet up together.
And specifically, each region often happens to have similar teams between their sphere, most are build in groups and so on, talking as someone who has met VGC players who train themselves at local gamestore tours sponsored by themselves and paying the direction, they often end at doing common teambuilding projects and tips.
>>26834499
This.
Also the Facebook like forums design with the +Like feature combined with muh status Smogon badges easily grabs support and can catalyze attention on one post or opinion if made by a Smogon "celebrity" or staff.
Another meme argument people spam against VGC is the "hurr durr le legendaries" and "lel same pokemon xD".
It's a Doubles Mode metagame and the players don't really decide the rulesets, however lately the Pokemon staff looks more interested at the players opinions about clauses and tierlists which translates as not allowed Pokemon.
Sometimes it has major legendaries sometimes it does have regional dex or standard mons.
Considering each gen and set of games lasts from 2 to 3 years VGC tours can cover all 3 types of metas. And don't forget that rulesets that involve the pentagon for example prevent and invalidate some Pokemon from past tutored moves and leave space to other candidates instead, same goes for the Item Clause.
It does also open a very wide window on an infinity of obscure attack combinations that are effective in doubles as much as more thinking involved around EVs spreads.
>>26834924
le clear smog cancer shroom and dummy fairy faec
stall can basically counter itself which leads to endless battles like in gen 2
Both are fun.
I like Smogon more because tiers allow me to use most shitmons that I like
Smogon purposely bans anything that beats stall. Therefore everyone playing who doesn't use stall is just wasting their time. Stall is the most braindead and boring playstyle to play with or against also. It wouldn't be so bad if Smogon was biased towards hyper offense because that actually takes skill and is fun. Therefore Smogon is worse.
>>26836109
>hyper offense
>skill
>>26836157
Ofcourse, any little mistake and your Pokemon is gone, and you're trying to think of a strategy that can get your opponent in position for a sweep. Stall is just, switch into whichever of your pokemon walls your opponent, then use a status move when they switch out. Every play is obvious to anyone with an iq above 80.
>>26836109
>this delusion
No wonder Verlisifags ironically have this mob mentality.
>>26834101
>Right, because the people at the top of the ladder aren't using the same old teams copied from SPL or the world cup.
Tour teams are built to counter-style the opponent. They're not typically good as ladder teams, which should be having generally even to decent matchups across most of the board and consitency options.
>>26833956
>Blaming verlis for hate against an ultimately flawed tier system
Tone down the autism please
>People don't understand that "Banned" doesn't mean "Cannot be used"
Except for when non-legend OU mons get banned to Ubers, like Greninja or blaziken, it's basically a fucking death sentence.
The rest of your post just sounds like your choking on smogon's fat chode, so I topped reading at the third paragraph.
Kill yourself, you fucking faggot.
>>26836346
>can't provide counter arguments
>just spam buzzwords
Pathetic
>>26836426
>Literally didn't read my post even a little bit
Here's your (you) now piss off you fucking kike
>>26831710
Most of my cart battles have been against passerbys on the PSS. If you challenge a player from a western country they will assume you follow smogon rules and bring 6 Pokemon. This is the case 90% time. The other 10% of western players are kids who have a full team of Legendaries. Japanese and Korean players if challenge to a battle will always assume you want Battle Spot rules and only send out 3 Pokemon despite having the option to use a full team of 6.
>>26836346
>blaziken
>bad
I shiggy diggy
>>26836439
>the only argument provided was that some mons banned from OU are not good in Uber.
Despite this being mostly true, is not a counter argument to what the other anon said because it's also still true that "Banned" doesn't mean "Cannot be used"
>the rest of the post was just buzzwords
>the reply to me was also just buzzwords
Laughably pathetic
>>26836569
Do they teach reading comprehension over at smogon university?
The people who swear their allegiance to them sure seem to have problems understanding basic sentences.
I like Smogon more since I'm not a fan of double battles but that's just me
>>26836579
Sweet!
People tell me that mega rayquaza is banned in OU.
Wait till i tell them i can use it because banned =/= cannot be used.
Might as well throw evasion users on my team too since those are banned.
>>26836592
>death sentence
>B+ In ubers
Greninja is fucking shit in ubers and probably shouldn't have been banned, if that settles your autism
>>26833956
Literally this
In all seriousness, can someone tell me every reason why they dislike Smogon (other than the generally shitty forum community, that's pretty obvious)?
>>26836683
You mean besides the white knighting for a tournament cheater because those betas thought she was a gril?
>>26836615
You can do that if you are playing on cart, while if you meant doing it on showdown( where you can play M-Fug only in AG) then you should know there are other rules preventing that
>>26836683
People's Charizards got shitted on so hard in Shoddybattle that they're still scarred
>>26836683
Because they purposely make stall unbeatable. Or because they're too stupid to realize when a stall mon is overpowered and can only recognize a high powered move. Either way, their rules make stall unbeatable.
>>26836727
>other than the generally shitty forum community
>>26836683
Most of /vp/ is not good at competitive stuff, some Smogon users are among the most annoying people on the planet and bans are almost always controversial, so is pretty easy to understand how the hate was born
>>26836740
So making horrible decisions based on the opinions of a select few, censoring people who oppose their shitty bans, and out right rigging results to fit their agenda isn't good enough for you?
>>26836737
Stall is easy to beat if you actually use stall breakers. Stuff like M-Hera and SD or Taunt Gliscor can do so much against it and they're certainly no the only options.
They also banned Shadow Tag, Goth stall was the strongest version of stall we had this generation and they essentially removed it.
And this is all from someone, though 1700+ on the OU ladder, primarily plays VGC.
>>26836727
I never heard about that, but I'm really talking about the tiers and gameplay, not the community because we all know they can be asshats
>>26836737
How do they purposely make it unbeatable? I'm genuinely curious about this because even though I barely ever see stall on the ladder, I have lost to it a few times and it's pretty frustrating.
>>26836774
That makes sense I guess
>>26836805
>Stall is easy to beat
Stopped reading there. Stall completely dominates the ladder. Each smogon singles ladder is topped by a stall player. This is primarily because only ever offensive pokemon are banned, never a single stallmon.
>>26836875
>Each smogon singles ladder
LC?
>>26836844
>How do they purposely make it unbeatable?
Simple, they ban anything that has a chance of beating it, while also never banning any stallmons. For example, they banned Hoopa U, solely because it could beat stall. After being banned ofcourse, stallmons from lower tiers raised up to OU, such as Amoonguss and Quagsire, showing that the only thing Hoopa U was hurting was stall, so ofcourse it got banned. While all the best offensive mons that could challenge stall like Kangaskhan and Hoopa U are banned, the most powerful stallmons such as Mega Sableye and Chansey remain unbanned. Obviously with the most powerful stallmons around without the most powerful offensive mons, stall will dominate.
>>26836888
No. That's different.
>>26836909
Don't forget they also banned gothitelle so it couldn't trap one of stalls precious walls and give it a choice scarf.
They banned Landorus-I because it could go mixed and deal with stall weather they throw a chansey or a hippowdon at you.
They banned greninja because stall doesnt carry fast pokemon / priority that can kill the frog made of paper.
They even tried banning mega metagross at one time because it dealt with stall but this didn't go through because stallfags embraced mega sableye at around the same time.
>>26836909
>offensive mons that could challenge stall
Like Heracross and Medicham which are huge problems for stall
>the most powerful stallmons
Like Goth, M-Gengar and Aegislash (to be fair Aegi was used on every play style, but was strongest on stall)
>>26836965
>Like Heracross and Medicham which are huge problems for stall
show me a stall team that doesnt carry a couple of pokemon to hard wall these
Mega sableye is untouchable by medicham and clefable deals with heracross (and medicham w/o zen headbutt)
>>26836958
Wasn't Goth used a lot more by Stall than as Anti-Stall...?
>>26836958
You don't know shit
>>26837186
>>26831641
Honestly, they both have their advantages.
Smogon is good because they have banlists and tiering, which I agree with you on is pretty good. It honestly is brings as much balance as you can to the single battle format.
Their method of dividing into tiers is great as well, they obviously put a lot of thought into it and it works in its own context.
Of course, that's smogon's biggest drawback; the power creep and especially introduction of megas has made single battle format a total crapshoot. A good chunk of the time, there's almost no point fighting a battle because as soon as you see their team composition you know you're boned.
At its most complex and meta level, smogon OU singles is like playing poker. You can make educated guesses, but the whole game pretty much relies on you guessing right.
Ultimately, singles is letting smogon down.
VGC embraces double battles, which actually adds depth to building your team, which removes emphasis on guessing switchins and places more emphasis on building a strategy from a wider variety of pokemon.
On one hand, VGC is dumb in that it has no tiers, letting shit like legendaries and mega lucario run rampant. But on the other hand, shit that is considered broken or unfair are far more easily countered in doubles.
The problems in VGC arise when you realise there's a lack of proper tiering like smogon has, and the ability to include fucking box legendaries which means teams are going to be centered around their strongest aspects i.e the legendaries.
Actively enforcing such a deliberate imbalance in composition really makes your pool of options shallow, but even still you get interesting phenomenons like that person who kicked ass in VGC a few years back with his pachirisu.
>>26837114
It fucked up everything anon
Stall/balance/HO minus standard physical attackers
>>26836579
>Laughably pathetic
What kind of neckbeard faggot reddit board to you hail from?
>>26837238
I might suck smogon dick but at least i am not a delusional faggot that can't even get good enough at fucking pokemon to beat an archetype that hasn't been dominant since gen 2. You're either lying because shitposting sounds fun to your 12 year old mind or you're too stupid to understand the metagame of a children's game. Either way, go fuck yourself anon.
>>26837433
>that can't even get good enough at fucking pokemon to beat an archetype
No one can "get good enough" to beat it retard, that's why it dominates the ladder and tops every ladder. It has nothing to do with "getting good enough", it's just impossible to beat because Smogon purposely made it so.
>>26835833
>There is actually someone who believes this
>>26837484
Speak for yourself, fucking retard. Stall isn't hard to beat if you actually recognize it during teambuilding, instead of just slapping 6 mons each with 4 attacking moves and hoping for the best.
The good players know how to walk on stall. Only absolute shitters out of the loop say such asinine things like "No one can 'get good enough' to beat it".
>>26836875
Ubers and LC top ladderers are 100% stall free. It was also my understanding that stall isn't very viable in OU and UU. That's 2/3rds of Smogon's official metas.
>>26837539
Wow you're fucking retarded or underage. Also the "good players" do not know how to walk on stall, they are stall players themselves, as I've said the ladder is dominated by stall and stall tops every ladder.
>>26837554
Ubers is just a banlist for OU where you can use anyone. So yes the game that Gamefreak made, is stall free, as it should be, but not the made Smogon tiers. LC is different. Ofcourse you chose the two completely obviously outliers that are completely different from everything else. And no, OU and UU are dominated by stall.
>>26837572
You don't know shit
>>26837572
Lol you keep spouting the good players are stall yet as the other guy keeps repeating, you don't know shit. There are balance players and HO players up there too but of course it's the stall players that are worth complaining about.
I think you should stop talking. You're making yourself sound dumber the more you post.
>>26837622
Hooboy don't feel like taking a new screenshot of the current top players because I already know stall is unbeatable and so the current top players are stall players too, but here's a screenshot I took like a month ago of the top winning players in OU. All stall players ofcourse. And I'm sure that hasn't changed. You're the one who doesn't know shit.
>>26837594
Once your brain develops more when you become an adult, you'll realize (assuming you're not a stall player yourself) that you never had a chance against stall because they purposely made it so.
>>26837592
>UU is dominated by stall
>UU, the tier where bulky pokemon that don't get recover or roost go to die
>>26837592
>Ubers is just a banlist for OU where you can use anyone.
Mega ray ray would like to have a word with you
>>26837684
Just looked on Showdown, top UU player is pokemonisfun, known stall player.
>>26837738
Clearly people only use one playstyle all the time and never, ever use something different.
>>26837738
You will never convince smogon drones that their all knowing pedo site is flawed.
I have no idea what causes people to become that brain washed.
>>26837760
Actually in the cases of those top players, yes.
They only use stall at the top of the ladder.
I've been in the top ten using stall myself and once you find a team that walls 95% of the meta whats the point in switching?
>>26837644
Why the fuck are you calling the highest win rate the top players?
I have an account in the 1500s that's over 87%. Actually topping the ladder is what counts and many non-stall players do that, which is what I'm saying.
>>26836940
>No. That's different.
>>26837894
>The ladder where all Pokemon are level 5 and only pokemon who are the first stage of an evolution is the same as the ladders where it's actually normal play
Ofcourse you had to find an obvious outlier that's different from normal play. What's next, you're going to look at Inverse Battles to try to prove a point.
>>26837484
>>26836991
>>26836909
>>26836875
>>26836737
>Literally being this bad at comp
>>26837433
>>26837539
I feel you bro.
>>26837862
Because they are the top players retard. Someone can get to top of the ladder with some recent luck and string of wins, but winning percentage shows how actually consistently you win.
>>26837762
>Anyone who disagrees with me is brain washed
You're the kind of guy who just starts spewing "YOU JUST DONT LIKE BERNIE BECAUSE YOU'RE SHEEPLE CONTROLLED BY THE MASS MEDIA AND ILLUMINATI"
>>26837929
It's not really that different. In fact, stall has possibly more options in KC considering the fact that every mon on your team can get a 1.5x def and spdef boost.
>>26837960
And someone can get a high win percentage the same way. Or to even explain it better, by stealing a team that's deemed good.
Where do you think PDCYoutube2 got the team he uses? He's as good as the average high ladder fag, I've beaten him at least twice.
>>26837291
This tee bee aych family.
Smogon and VGC both have their advantages and disadvantages. imo it's mostly about which Pokemon you like to use (if you like using the most powerful mons, you'll like VGC, and if you like using underappreciated bros likeSamurott, you'll like Smogon.
Can I just complain about the suspecting process for a moment? I get that smogon wants only people who are good to have a say in the votes and that's defensible, but why on earth do you have to play so many games to qualify? Even if you had a GXE of ONE HUNDRED (literally winning every single game), you'd have to play 18 games to qualify. And nobody can do that, because the suspect ladders are skewed towards better players. Why can't I just ignore the skewed suspect ladder and play the regular format if I want to so I can test teams without being constantly matched up with people who are way beyond my own level? It's not right and obviously should be changed.
>>26838011
Not really, stall is basically impossible in LC because every pokemon's stats are low, but the attacks have the same BP as they have in higher tiers.
>>26838011
Yes it is completely different obviously. With completely different and weird rules. Which is why it is the only example you could give. Your example only further proved how much different it is than everything else.
>>26838038
No they can't. Also actually I don't think GXE is actually your winning percentage, it measures the odds that a player would win a battle against a randomly selected opponent from the ladder. Not just winning percentage. Also why are you bringing up PDCYoutube2, he's another top playing stall player that only further proves my point.
>>26838108
Yes they can. Plenty of people have stolen empo's HO team and gotten high GXEs with it.
And because he's in the fucking picture you posted. He doesn't even exclusively play stall, he just uses ABR stall ever since it became a thing a few months ago.
>>26831641
Smogon is a cult and like all cults they target the easily manipulated and brainwashed. Plus everyone who follows their rules force other people to play by their cult's rules.
>the way smogon determines their banlist is rather exceptional.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>banned swagger and foul play
>can't pass multiple boosts
>>26838062
>I get that smogon wants only people who are good
Good and bad barely exist with Smogon rules. Mostly there's just stall players (winners) and non-stall players (losers), if you want to win, just use a stall team and learn the obvious plays to make when using a stall team, namely, switching in to whatever walls your opponent, and keeping your Chansey away from Knock Offers. Playing stall is really just knowledge about the game, what kind of moves Pokemon know, than any skill is involved, if you play stall and know all the different moves Pokemon come with, then you'll win 95% of the time.
>>26833956
No verl hates them cause a bunch of the stupid cunts had a go at him at a VGC event a few years back, he even talked about in a video.
>>26838151
>High
There's a ton of people of the ladder, I don't care about high, to know whats the best, I look at whose the actual best. What does it mean if there's some high HO player when there's 20 stall players above him, it's still clear stall has an unfair advantage. And I don't know what he did in the past, but as of now he's a stall player which is why he's the top player.
>>26837993
The proof is put right in front of your eyes and all you people do is cherry pick the exceptions to their shitty standards
>but that ONE player somewhere on the ladder isn't using a stall team
>LC is a singles metagame and its not dominated by stall
>These rare, niche pokemon break stall proving smogon doesnt favor stall. except when stall carries one of its common counters
Smogon drones like you are literally the most pathetic shits on the internet
>>26838199
>Everyone who disagrees with me is brainwashed
>Smogon tries to enforce their rules on others
>Even though the simulator they pay for and run has every major metagame on it, regardless whether or not it is a Smogon metagame
Wew
>>26838205
No shit. Stall is the most difficult playstyle, but if you can do it well you can dominate.
And I swear to god if you say that HO is harder than stall I will come out of your computer andtell you that is not actually the case,mark my fucking words.
>>26837433
Way to show that you're new to this game AND prove you suck smogons hard cock.
A good stall team has an answer to virtually anything, and everything that could get past them is banned.
This is very similar to dragon type moves in gen 4+5, you could know you're opponent is gonna click draco meteor and outrage all game but when theres only one thing in the meta that somewhat counters it (steel types still took a shit ton of damage) theres nothing you could do once your one or two steel types were trapped by zone or just worn down.
So in other words you know exactly what they are going to do but you can't do shit about it.
Now run along, i believe Pokeaims cock is drying up.
>>26838231
>to know whats the best, I look at whose the actual best
And I explained how you're not actually looking at who's the actual best. Whether a team is good is different from if a player is good.
And if you start looking at how many stall teams are good, there are about 2-3, with ABR stall being the most prevalent of them. On the contrary, there's a much wider diversity of successful balance and HO teams.
The flaw in GXE is that stall players don't have to get matched to good players that can beat them, since the Elo matching range is within 300 points. They can play 100 players who aren't good and get those wins, instead of toppling when facing a good 10 or so good players. And again, the whole stealing teams part.
>>26838269
No stall is the most braindead playstyle where mistakes are barely punished and every play you make is incredibly obvious and takes no thought. HO requires thought in every move, trying to strategize how to get your opponent in position for a sweep, and not getting into vulnerable position.
>>26838299
This, in all tiers OU and below. Ubers stall is very different in that almost ANY of the many setup sweepers in the tier will easily overpower and destroy a stall team should the user fuck up even ONCE.
>>26838299
>>26838278
Jesus Christ. This is goddamn proof right here that anti-smogonfags suck at comp even worse than I thought. I don't even know what to say. You really think that playing stall is easy?
>>26838295
>The flaw in GXE is that stall players don't have to get matched to good players that can beat them
The same can be said about everyone else. And yet stall is the only one dominating. You point made no sense. Also what does stealing teams matter. Everyone should be stealing stall teams, because they're the only ones that win.
>>26838328
Ofcourse it's easy. You're just a retarded underage who thinks time consuming = smart. When sitting there for 300+ turns should really tell you how easy the playstyle is, that even after 300+ turns of all the errors players make, still no one loses.
>not using Showdown purely for Random battles
Teambuilders will always flock to the single most powerful pokemon, which is why CHALK and its variations are so ubiquitous in competitive play.
Random battles force you to play with the cards you're dealt. With no control over which Pokemon you possess, superior strategy becomes the sole deciding factor in victory.
>>26838335
How dense are you? You're looking at it from purely GXE when Elo shows that stall isn't overpowered, since players are beating it. The reason stall is seen so much is it has become a crutch players use to secure their points on the high ladder, since it's the safest playstyle.
Stealing teams doesn't matter to you because I guess you don't play this game enough to realize that using a stolen team doesn't make you 'good'. I don't use stall and win regularly, beating stall players.
>>26838367
If it's so easy, why is it so difficult for newcomers?
In fact you know what. You've been arguing that stall is the easiest playstyle, right? Well, why don't you prove it? Create an OU stall team, find a random ladderer, and win.
>>26838367
making the stall team is hard, once you have that down playing the games are easy
>>26838389
Elo is not as important as GXE, for the reasons I already explained. For example, some terrible player loses 20,000 games at the beginning, have a rating of 1000, then they get lucky and win 20 games in a row, they now have a pretty good Elo, while their GXE will rightly say they suck. And I never said stealing teams makes you good, I'm not saying any of the stall players are good, their stall teams are just overpowered.
>>26838419
All you have to do is copy someone elses already provenly effective stall. So you don't even have to make your own team.
>>26831641
Stall vs the same 6mons in every competition
Hmmmm..
Hard to chose one
>>26838414
I don't know if it's difficult for newcomers, but if it is, it's probably because they don't know what kind of moves the opponent has. Like a newcomer might switch in their Chansey with Eviolite into a Pokemon that knows Knock Off. Doesn't have anything to do with skill, it's just a lack of knowledge. Anyway I would never play with stall, it's too boring, braindead as well as unfair because it's overpowered.
>>26838444
That might apply for the lower end of the ladder, but not for the top of the ladder.
GXE is more forgiving if you go on a losing streak, whereas Elo can drop you 20-30 points at a time per loss, so players who get to the top spots are actually good considering how much they'd have to win. Why do you think Elo is the main rating value listed first?
>I'm not saying any of the stall players are good, their stall teams are just overpowered.
You called it unbeatable in the first post of yours I replied to, which is far from the truth.
>>26838484
Me: "If stall is the easiest playstyle, why don't you play a game with a stall team? You're saying that it's 'unbeatable', so why don't you prove it?"
"UHHHHH, I-I DONT, UH.... LIKE STALL! YEAH, THATS IT! I DONT LIKE PLAYING STALL SO I WONT PLAY IT? YOU BELIEVE THAT, RIGHT GUYS!?!"
Please kill yourself. That's the absolute worst excuse I've heard in my entire life. Do you think you're fooling anybody?
>>26838491
>GXE is more forgiving if you go on a losing streak
Thats a good thing. Just because you've gotten unlucky recently shouldn't erase how impressive you were before. GXE shows how good you are all the time, Elo shows how good you've been in the last few games.
>Why do you think Elo is the main rating value listed first?
It was made before GXE was introduced.
Also obviously stall is not unbeatable, and obviously stall players have lost games before. It's just overpowered and anyone not using it are at a giant disadvantage and will lose to stall 9 times out of 10.
>>26838522
>http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-199755395
Here's a stall team i used to get reqs to vote in the greninja suspect within one day.
I switched lando out for a quagsire later but as you can see it doesnt matter what the opponent does.
Once you pick 6 pokemon that counter the meta and have synergy its gg.
>>26838522
What the hell are you talking about retard underage. If I didn't hate stall, I would just be a stallfag, but because I hate it and refuse to play with it, I complain about it instead. Besides that, why would you look at me as an example, you have an entire ladder to look at instead, filled with players much better than me. Which have proven stall is unbeatable.
For all the autistposting about Elo vs GXE, let me direct you to that third number there. COIL. It's a calculation both on your winrate and win count, drawing from both pools of info that ELO and GXE are individually based off of. Whenever Smogon does a suspect, they use COIL because it's a more consistent way to measure skill. So stop with the slappy fight about which of the 2 irrelevant stats matter more.
If you're wondering why we have Elo or GXE at all, is because COIL has a thin range of accuracy. It stats becoming accurate after 20-30 games, and starts losing accuracy when you have something like 150+ games. Elo and GXE exist so we have a better idea of the skill level of a player who fall outside those bounds (which are irrelevant for a suspect test).
>>26838553
the point is that you make all these claims, and then when I asked you to back them up, you gave a bullshit excuse.
and no, the higher ladder doesnt mean anything in this scenario because you're saying that it's the EASIEST playstyle. Not the best.
>>26838544
Did I ever say that stall was easily beatable. I didnt. A good stall team/player is very hard to overcome. Im saying that the whole "stall is easy" thing is bullshit.
>>26838532
Your justifications seem to only involve luck, not skill. Skill level is more consistent than good luck/bad luck, so you're only talking about exceptions in the long run.
>It was made before GXE was introduced.
And coming after it would have it replace Elo since Elo would be purely nominal at that point, but that's not the case.
Stall isn't overpowered, just popular and a testament to the patience of the player facing stall. ABR stall is the one team that buffed stall's relevance again, and it came out before Hoopa-U was even banned.
>>26838583
I get to high ladder ratings using stall and i'm saying its easy.
Even provided you with an example that you were begging for.
Now where will you move the goalpost?
>>26838583
How would me winning with stall prove that it's the easiest, I might be the best player in the world for all you know. To prove it's the easiest, I would need to get like a 10 year old to play with it and see if they win. If you weren't an underaged retard you'd realize how stupid what you're saying is.
>>26838585
Yes stall is overpowered which is why it dominates the ladder completely and has for as long as I can remember. And anyone who tries to dethrone stall is wasting their time. Also your first two sentences about luck and skill made no sense.
>>26838657
>Also your first two sentences about luck and skill made no sense.
Your only points against Elo and for GXE involve one's luck, and laddering runs based on pure luck are fractional at best.
>Yes stall is overpowered which is why it dominates the ladder completely and has for as long as I can remember.
You can only remember until early Gen VI then, since stall was fragile at best until Mega Sableye was introduced. Your definition of dethroning stall is probably getting the highest GXE in history or wiping stall off the top 50, since non-stall players have triumphed MANY times on the ladder.
>>26838714
When I said luck, I didn't mean like coin flip luck, I meant like, if you play a game enough, no matter how good you are, you're bound to lose some time, and if those losses happen to be recent, you'll get a low Elo, but not low GXE. Which is why GXE is better in determining good you are at winning. Also again you're barely making any sense. My definition of dethroning stall is someone besides a stall player becoming the top player. But it's not gonna happen, they can't even crack the top 4, let alone become number 1.
>Smogon
>Tries to make a game that relies a good 30% on RNG competitive
>Bans some centralizing stuff
>Conveniently ignores others
>Bans some luck based stuff
>Conveniently ignores others
>tries to make every playstyle viable
>the metagame is too binary for that so either the safest playstyle (Stall) ends up being the only viable playstyle at high elo or you have to run and incredibly centralizing stall/wallbreaker and its counters to play at the same level as others.
"Competitive" Pokemon was a mistake.
>>26839131
>VGC
>literally over 50% usage on MULTIPLE Pokemon
>absolute clusterfuck with a few enjoyable years mixed inbetween now and then
>>26839148
>doubles
that's not even real pokemon desu
>>26839157
Even Game Freak realizes that 6 vs 6 singles is broken. Which is a shame, because it is the OG Pokemon battle style and the coolest too.
>>26839174
Pokemon in general is broken, it'd take a massive overhaul of the core mechanics of the game to make it actually competitive and that won't happen any time soon.
>>26834490
This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. We didn't get much of anything that handles it better after ORAS. In fact when it was banned, a bunch of XY Megas like Medicham and Heracross.
And then besides M-Lopunny every pokemon that ORAS made viable has a really hard time against Aegislash: M-Metagross, M-Diancie, M-Altaria, even shit like M-Sceptile and M-Slowbro.
This is what would happen if Aegislash was brought back into OU:
>A bunch of XY Megas that currently enjoy viability would plummet in viability (for the second time)
>Majority of ORAS Megas that have been viable since their release lose a lot of viability
>Every single team that exists right now would become shitty overnight, because they haven't taken Aegis into account/haven't added an Aegis to their team
>Entire meta once against starts revolving around King's Shield shenanigans and niche checks and counters like Mandibuzz
>>26838328
Hey, don't turn this into a crusade against just VGC.
I'm a Smogshit and I know stall is the easiest playstyle to use.
>Smogon is that kid who played pokemon with you once, but then started avoiding you because you didn't play the game his way
