>Spikes
>Stealth Rock
>Pursuit
>Sticky Web
>Shadow Tag
>Magnet Pull
>Arena Trap
>And now Stakeout
Imagine a modern pokemon game that embraces one of its most basic battle functions, where switching is skillfull. Where you don't leave shit to die because you're forced to. Where strategy shines above throwing OP shit until the opponent loses.
In other words, why GF hates switching so much?
To prevent stallfests
Taxing switching is a good thing though. It helps force the players to commit to what's on the field currently.
>>26755111
>>26755126
This.
Free switching strengthens stall and is exploited by Regenerator. Not to mention, it can devolve games from a matter of having to attack into a matter of PP stalling into endless free switching with neither side giving in since it's not like they have to waste resources.
>>26755111
Stall isn't bad. I'd say that the mindless 2HKO meta is actually bad. Hell, the banlists just keeps getting bigger and bigger, and they're almost all offensive threats.
>>26755171
Not to mention, it can devolve games from a matter of having to attack into a matter of PP stalling into endless free switching with neither side giving in
This almost never happened in RBY. Never happened when rocks got tested in BW.
Certainly wouldn't happen now with the ridiculous gen 6 power creep.
>>26755096
What's stakeout again? I hjave't watched the video yet because videos don't work on my shitty device.
>>26755311
>Stall isn't bad. I'd say that the mindless 2HKO meta
The meta is literally only stall because Smogon bans anything that breaks it and makes the game go fast
>>26755311
Power creep is real, but stall is much more cookie cutter than stall.
Look at gen 2 curse set ups
>>26755311
>This almost never happened in RBY. Never happened when rocks got tested in BW.
RBY was a much simpler time. You didn't have Skarm. Psychic was overpowered and some typings like Ghost and Dragon were next to useless.
In BW, Fairy didn't exist, so Dragon was still overpowered and stall couldn't stand up to shit like Hydreigon and, in the absence of hazards, Dragonite.
>>26755396
people who mention gen2 really don't seem to understand it very well
curse was great in gen 2 because
> snorlax was an uber in disguise
> sleep talk wasn't yet nerfed
that's about it
I like the new additions and really hope that we get a metagame where every playstyle is equally viable. Now we need a "hazard removal upon entry" ability and a "offensive abilities won't work against this pokemon" ability.
Will we achieve variation without one sided dominance (aka MegaRay), if everything is saturated with reliable countermeasures?
>>26755334
>With the Stakeout Ability, this Pokémon’s moves can deal twice the normal damage to any Pokémon that switch in or enter the field mid-battle.
http://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/en-us/pokemon/yungoos/
>>26755396
Every team had them because we didn't have any other good options for set up
>>26755334
An ability that makes you deal double damage if the opponent switches their pokemon.
>>26755436
Alakazam and Chansey were bigger stall machines than Skarm could ever hope to be thanks to TW and Ice Beam.
Gengar was a pretty darn decent mon, though I don't see how its typing is related to stall.
As for dragons, they only raised so high due to Smogon banning stuff that would otherwise stop their sweep.
>>26755096
I only hate rocks, rock type has way too many supereffectives
>>26755096
>switching is skillfull
this is what smogon believes
Poison spikes needs to die
Every nigga can learn Toxic already
>>26755334
Yungoos will do double damage to any pokemon that switches in during mid battle on the turn of switch in
>>26755467
I highly doubt Pokemon will ever be that balanced. No game that I've ever heard of with as many moving parts as Pokemon is. The closest you could maybe get is having a ton of pretty good play styles under the handful of really good play styles and a counters for every play style but then you run into the problem of the game being so much about match-up that games will feel like they are decided before the game is played. People complain about how imbalanced the game is all the time but when you think about it achieving perfect balance is very very difficult, maybe impossible. I would argue definitely impossible if game freak continues to be as nerf shy as they have been.
>those precious few early SM tournaments where mons from XYORAS and earlier are not allowed
Enjoy relatively few Stealth Rocks while it lasts, ladies
>>26755640
So, if you switch in a fighting type to do STAB SE on an enemy Yungoos, the first attack that Yungoos will do will be double the damage
>Spikes on the ground cant hit pokemon in the air
>Rocks in the air can hit pokemon on the ground
Why is this allowed?
>>26755096
>/vp/ hates stall
>/vp/ hates moves and abilities that hurt stall
idgi
>>26755706
Yes, but only if you attacked the turn the opponent switched.
The ability basically tuns all of its attacks into reverse pursuits. Instead of doing double damage to the Pokemon switching out, they do double damage to the Pokemon switching in.
>>26755096
>Spikes
>Toxic Spikes
>Stealth Rock
I think these are okay but their ubiquity in the meta shows that they are overpowered. The only way to balance it out it to make things like rapid spin and defog more widespread and introduce moves to counter and even punish hazard users.
>Sticky Web
This is the only entry hazard I think is pretty balanced. It hurts the opponent but can be countered and overcome. Spikes and Rocks just kill.
>Pursuit
>Steakout
I think these are great. They make ask more from the attacking player instead of just setting spikes. It requires better prediction but they might need a wider distribution and maybe some moves that punish that attacker for bad predictions.
>Shadow Tag
>Magnet Pull
>Arena Trap
I think these are good but can easily be broken when put on a good pokemon. If a pokemon is good competitively without a trapping ability then getting one is too dangerous. It should only be allowed on pokemon that without the ability would not have much use and are used for counters to a specific threat.
TLDR: Switching should be punished but when punishing switching takes over the game like it has it needs to be nerfed.
>>26755450
>sleep talk wasn't yet nerfed
I didn't start playing competitive until gen 5, how was sleep talk nerfed? What did it do before?
>>26755467
>Now we need a "hazard removal upon entry" ability and a "offensive abilities won't work against this pokemon" ability.
I'd love this. My first competitive meta was gen 2. Stall is the only way I can have fun, and it's getting progressively harder with all the hazards and traps, along with the general powercreep.
>>26755436
It was also better cause Smogon didn't exist.
>>26755521
>An ability that makes you deal double damage if the opponent switches their pokemon.
so good analytic?
OP, my friend and I just booted up Pokemon Stadium 2 yesterday for old time's sake, and in the absence of any kind of penalty for it, you know what happened?
Switching and switching and switching and switching. You don't even want to not switch, because you're not just going to leave your guy to die, are you?
All of our matches came down to one simple strategy: keep our fastest pokemon alive. It was nothing but chipping until the last two pokemon stood against each other, weakened from the battle, and so the last turn literally always came down to whoever went first.
I wised up and started spamming Thunder Wave and Stun Spore and then he almost got so mad he left.
I don't understand why they did it when all they seem to care about is there level 50 2v2 thing. Switching is only a big problem in singles.
>>26755778
It could select Rest again iirc and keep going forever, healing itself
>>26755311
>Stall isn't bad. I'd say that the mindless 2HKO meta is actually bad
Stall is the literal cancer of the current generation. Much worse than the weather wars. I'd rather have a 2HKO opposing pokemon in the game that I can try to work around of rather than a fucking round pink creature that extends the game into a 50 turns boredom show.
It's just a current staple because spoiled Smogon overlords don't redesign their banned moves list so as to making stall weaker
>>26755739
I wonder what would happen if it used Pursuit. Would it double that?
>>26755311
Stall fucking blows. It requires less thought than VGC team composition and sucks the fun straight out of the game.
Switching without consequence would turn games into hours long ordeals and devolve that shit into PP counting, regenerator abusing shit fests.
If you don't like hazards or switches at all then play doubles.
>>26755742
Well said.
Defog and Rapid Spin definitely need more distribution.
And I think the damage that hazards do needs to be modified to scale better with the Pokemon's overall HP and or Defenses.
Thin mons like Escavlier need to receive ~6% from spikes and neutral stealth rocks while shit like Chansey needs to loos closer to 24% while switching in (many bulky Pokemon have Regenerator anyway).
This should also apply heavily to Pokemon like Scyther and the like that are absolutely hindered by Stealth Rock.
Also, Spikes should either be limited to a max layer of 1 or only rise in damage by a very small percent.
Conversely all hazards could be scrapped in favor of a perpetual/automatic health sap from switching in.
RBY could afford not having entry hazards and whatnot because very few Pokemon had access to Recover and the only other way to restore your health was using Rest, which had no Sleep Talk to prevent you from being a sitting duck for two turns. With all of these problems with mons maintaining longevity progressively disappearing from Gen 2 onward most of the stuff OP listed became mandatory to prevent 6v6 games lasting twice as long as they do already. They're not even a factor in official metas because those games almost never go into double digit turn count.
>>26755096
>>26755311
>stall isn't bad
Listen faggot.
If you want to waste so much time over battling then you can go on motherfucking Smogon and watch a Funbro slacking off for 263 turns, IF THAT'S YOUR RETARDED IDEA OF FUN.
You can switch 35 times in a battle because "hurr Imma wallin' yo scald durr" BUT PLEASE DO YOU FAGGOTRY ONLY ON SMOGON, GOD JESUS ROCKET RACER CHRIST.
Let me enjoy the fucking battle spot singles in FUCKING UNRATED BATTLE, IT'S UNRATED, YOU RETARD, WHAT'S THE GODDAMN POINT IN STALLING FOR 57389 TURNS IN MOTHERFUCKING UNRATED BATTLES
GET A LIFE
GET A JOB
THEN YOU MAY REALIZE NOT EVERYONE HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO WATCH A FAGGOT POKEMON HIDING BEHIND A FUCKING PLUSHIE
GOD
DAMN
>>26760843
Someone got BTFO by Chansey & friends.
>>26763813
>>26760843
Stall isn't bad if it's not abused. I don't mind getting walled or stalled by a Pokemon or two on a team, that's Pokemon, but I do get annoyed when the whole team is filled with them.
>shuckle
>chansey
>gliscor
>ferrothorne
>m-aggron
>m-sableye
>clefable
Don't get me wrong. I love all those Pokemon but not when they're on the same team.
>>26763813
>>26764041
No anon, I don't even mind losing a battle. I literally lost my shit when it requires 40 fucking minutes to end a match, even winning. I work 10 hours a day, and I have to take care of my home, cook and other shit so the time for playing fucking videogames is like 1-2 hours at best.
They should make a special battle where switching and recovering are banned, so people who want to enjoy a fast battle (call us casuals, toddlers, morons, losers, I don't mind) can have a good time without having to stare at a flying scorpion for 10 shitty turns.
>>26764041
shuckle and m-aggron are irrelevant outside of low ladder
anon confirmed for never having played outside of elo hell
>>26764123
I've been seeing m-aggron pop up more and more over the last week. Usually using roar/dragontail and blocking fairies.
>>26755096
Entry Hazards dont exist to punish switching they exist to make it easier to one hit kill anything that your opponent switchs into.
>>26764123
Here your (you), clearly that what you wanted.
>>26760843
>ROCKET RACER
thanks for the memories bro
>>26764476I always thought Veronica Voltage was his girlfriend
>>26764519What happened when you beat that ghostly bitch on all races anyway? Never beat her on some of the cheesier circuits
>>26764580You simply win her car and her set of bricks.
>>26755096
Pretty much all of these are only relevant in Smogon formats, gamefreak don't care about your meme rules
>>26758793
How do you fix it?
Max def/spd per team?
One 50% recovery move per/team clause?
Ban Regenerator?
Mega-Sableye to ubers?
>>26764642
Either unban the good wallbreakers or ban the good walls. Either one would solve the problem.
>>26764681
>>26764642
Do you people just want a game where you pick moves and watch things die or something?
God forbid if something requires some thought to kill.
You people are the bane of competitive play. Even VGC got braindead thanks to your mentality.
>>26764598Fuck her
>>26764692
So since you can hit a nail with your fist for an hour to drive it in, a ban on hammers is justified?
>Mega Sableye
>Chansey
>Clefable
>Quagsire
>Amoonguss
>Talonflame
Is this the new standard stall team? A few days ago I saw two in a row while trying to get from 1600 to 1700 in OU
>>26764692
Listen up faggot, have you played OU above 1300? There's basically one viable core with Mega-Sableye, Clef, Amoongus, and Quagsire. Gen 6 has reared its ugly, shitty head.
>God forbid if something requires some thought to kill.
Stall is literally the most braindead way to play.
>>26764681
The walls are not a problem individually. Think about class limits in competitive TF2. If there are multiple medics, the game's shit, but it's equally shit if there are none. God forbid the meta start categorizing shit further. It's not like Gamefreak offers patches or even knows what to balance.
>>26764817
Kek, don't worry, someone will figure out the new meme team and smogon will change again.
Or you know, if it's really that big of a deal you can always make a counter team and win every battle against that.
>>26764817
There really needs to be better Mold Breaker Pokemon. Excadrill/Kyurem just don't cut it anymore.
>>26759190
No, it would get the regular pursuit boost on the Pokemon switching OUT, because the ability only effects moves used on a Pokemon switching IN
>>26756000
trips confirm
