At what tiers would you put them, /vp/?
PEPE -GOD TIER-
lol, carrot top is literally the worst villain of the franchise.
>>26654154
Frenchman had a real motive?
I thought he was just a rehash of blue hair.
not even properly developed tier
below shit tier
Lysandre
his motivations and actions don't even make logical sense
>>26654154
This list is completely in reverse order
>>26654188
It's going by gen. You can place them where you want.
>>26654188
the list is literally the reverse order in which they came out
>>26654154
Ghetsis is Shit Tier and Cyrus is a mix of High and Meh.
>>26654193
Hes saying you already have it correct, just flipped the wrong way
>>26654154
>Because of the situation they find themselves in
Except Ghetsis is a real piece of shit who went insane because his 15 year plan didn't work
Also I call bullshit
Cyrus simply wants to be gone and get rid of emotion, it's not a wow reason, but he was easily one of the more scarier and actually threatening villains
The one who comes close is Ghetsis when he literally tries to kill you
>>26654154
Maxie and Archie's motivations change between the original and remakes. Guessing it's going off the remakes though where Archie wants to remove people and Maxie wants to make more land for people to use (not sure if he wants to get rid of Pokemon though).
>I wanna kill all the pokeman
>Whelp, hard to find a fault in that... hell your motives are arguably better than mine!
>>26654188
>>26654196
>Villains whose motives are hard to find fault in and are arguably better than the hero's
>Giovanni
Nigga you what
>Great Tier
MUH FLOOD THE LAND or MUH MAKE MORE LAND
>Great motivations
Fuck that noise. If anything, by this lists defintion N is the only "Elder God Tier" villain. Giovanni isn't even a fucking villain, he's just a mob leader.
>>26654188
Actually
>Villains who are just evil or lust for power
Fits Giovanni just fine.
>>26654218
>I wanna kill all the people
FTFY
There that doesn't sound so bad does it?
>>26654229
I don't think most people would choose to rank villains based on OP's criteria.
A villain doesn't need moral high ground to be executed well in a narrative.
>>26654154
Giovanni: Elder God Tier. He sought to create the most powerful pokemon to be placed into the hands of humans to fight off all of the dimension-tearing fuckmonsters he discovered over the years. Had to do some shady stuff to fund it, but did it to preserve humanities future. Decided his plan was unnecessary when he saw a trainer as strong as Red, so quit.
Team Rocket Admin from GSC: Great Tier. Is frantically looking for his boss because he just read Giovanni's file on the aforementioned fuckmonsters and is scared shitless. Also looking to pay his boys.
Maxie: Elder God Tier: Seeking to expand the landmass of a region that is coming close to population maximum.
Archie: Meh Tier. Wants to drown millions so he can save some fish.
Cyrus: Mid Tier. He just wants to rebuild the world as he sees fit. We've all wanted to do it. His world just sucks.
N: Meh Tier. Talks to animals, and throws away any pokemon that fails him instead of healing them. Has no clear goal, except to prove that he is right. Team Plasma grunts tell you more about their cause.
Ghestis 1: Shit Tier. Wants Muh Power.
Ghestis 2: Great Tier. Will hunt down those meddling kids and their monochrome dragon, to if it is the last thing he scooby-dooby does.
Lysanre: Meh Tier. Wants to kill everything because Diantha wouldn't sleep with him.
Zinnia: Meh tier. She's fucking crazy. You know it, I know it, get over it.
>>26654238
People don't seem that bad in the pokemon universe though.
Hell, they don't even have real wars anymore.
>>26654154
That description, while it goes for N, does not match Ghetsis AT ALL. Another case of faggots who have never fully played a Gen 5 game. Fucking end your life.
>>26654154
i forgot what ghetis did and shit tier doesnt fit to any of the pokemon villains
>>26654170
Yeah, if you want a villain who's legitimately threatening and somewhat complex (for a Pokemon a villain), Cyrus fits the bill.
Ghetsis is a good villain, but also pretty cliche. Giovanni doesn't have enough personality. Archie and Maxie have fairly stupid plans, though their motives were improved in ORAS and I like their characters. N isn't really a villain desu.
Does Colress count as a villain? I think so.
Giovanni>Cyrus>N>Ghetsis>Lysandre>>>>Maxie and Archie
>>26654249
>how do i use paint
N wasn't a villain and never had bad intentions. He was actually innocent.Ghetsis only lusted for power but the things he did and why he did them were more interesting than Giovanni.
>>26654254
Good point. Lysandre actually seems like a huge dick in that context.
>>26654249
>throws away any pokemon that fails him instead of healing them
The canon explanation is actually that he only uses Pokemon that are obtainable nearby as he never permanently "captures" one and always lets them free after battle
>>26654249
That description of Giovanni is not canon, dumbass. That's trashime Giovanni, not in-game Giovanni. In-game Gio only lusts for power and is honestly the most boring villain, even worse than Ghetsis.
>>26654304
I thought Team Rocket funded the Mewtwo Project in-game too, though.
I might be wrong, but I think it was brought up in one of the pokemon mansion journals.
>>26654154
>Believing in good and evil
>>26654249
>Wants to kill everything because Diantha wouldn't sleep with him.
>>26654177
His motive was to rid the world of corruption, war, fighting, greed, anything that makes the world itself ugly, he wanted the world to be beautiful again and would stop at nothing to obtain that world, even going so far as mass genocide. Sure the way he went about trying to achieve his plan was insane, but he actually had good points, specifically that the way the world is in because of the faults of humanity makes it an ugly place to live in.
>>26654263
Ghetsis manipulated his team and his foster son into believing he wanted Pokemon to be liberated, however all he wanted was to rule over Unova and have the grunts steal Pokemon around the region so that no one could stop him from taking over the region with an iron fist.
>N Elder God
Since he wasn't really a villain and had entirely good intentions which were manipulated behind his back by his father
>Cyrus Great Tier
Thought he was in a world where fighting was caused by emotions so wanted to recreate the world in his own image which would have no wars
>Maxie Great Tier
Had a more viable plan than Archie did in order to improve human civilisation
>Archie Mid Tier
Wanted to wipe out people for the sake of Pokemon, which was stupid because doing so also meant wiping out all the Pokemon on land anyway
>Lysandre Meh Tier
Rambled like a madman about a beautiful world for most of the game then announced over Holocaster that he was going to commit suicide and take the rest of the world with him
>Giovanni Shit Tier
Just wanted to rule the world by collecting the rarest and strongest Pokemon, which actually isn't that shit but falls under the category anyway
>Ghetsis Shit Tier
Wanted to be the only person left in the world with Pokemon which would let him rule over people somehow, then ended up turning into a less fun version of Giovanni and Captain Planet-tier villain who wanted to freeze the world
>>26654249
>Zinnia
>Even an antagonist.
>>26654366
>Implying Lysandre is straight.
>>26654249
>>26654183
Lysandre was a philanthropist turned bitter and cynical after trying to make the world a better place and eventually not being able to make a difference at all because the very people he wanted to help were greedy assholes.
Everywhere he went he always witnessed people fighting one another to control resources or power.
In a James Bond villain fashion, he now wants to take radical actions and his solution is to drastically reduce the population.
Pokémons having lost their fight a long time ago and being doomed to be the humans' slaves forever, they're as good as dead.
So yeah it's the cliché "we need to make a new garden of eden with only a few chosen ones" and the kinda topical "you can't save people from themselves" mashed together.
But it's not insanity or evil for evil's sake
>>26654454
>it takes headcannons to make it sound developed
>>26654154
Cyrus and Giovanni are the best villians. Maxie and Archie are borderline autistic. N is about as evil as Wally. Ghetsis's plan was shit, The Only "I" should be allowed to use pokemon thing. It would be impossible to enforce and is just rambling. Lysandre's plan was small scale compared to Cyrus. Lysander wanted to kill everything that he viewed as imperfect or didn't match his view of beauty. Cyrus on the other hand was going to destroy the universe and rebuild it as it's new god.
Cyrus is the coolest. I hope he comes back in some future game. I like N too
>>26654476
Lysandre mostly rambles during your interactions with him, but you can actually piece all that from the prof and that one guy who used to be his friend in Snowbelle city. Ain't no head cannon.
>>26654454
>his solution is to drastically reduce the population.
>we need to make a new garden of eden with only a few chosen ones
>But it's not insanity or evil for evil's sake
>>26654505
If it's insanity then Cyrus also belongs to that tier.
>>26654509
May as well. They're basically the same person.
>>26654491
>>26654489
>Asocial, borderline autistic
>Upset because muh parents don't approve me
>People fight because they have emotions unlike me, I should be God and then everyone would be like me and that would be the perfect world
I mean the only thing keeping him from being the fedora to end all fedoras is that he can't feel euphoric because that's an emotion.
Still no wonder he's a /vp/ favorite
>>26654509
I'll agree with that. If anything Cyrus is more insane. However as evil plans go Cyrus is hard to top. One views themselves as a king and the other views himself as a god.
>>26654550
It beats
>I hate water/land, who needs it. Oh shit I forgot that everyone will die without those.
>Release all the pokemon so my dad doesn't hit me
> All pokemon are mine, you can't have any because I said so
>I'm going to kill a majority of the population, however not have the forseight to know that my new world will eventually grow large enough to become everything I hated, because I can't see a big picture.
Geovani just wanted immediate wealth for luxury and power. Cyrus was going to shake the etch a sketch, and be god.
>>26654263
Almost perfect rankings.
>Elder God
N. A lost soul who only meant good. Did some misdeeds and actively redeemed himself twice.Possibly a Zoroark.
>Mid
Giovanni. A mafia boss doing mafia things.
>High, Meh
These two tiers are poorly defined. Archie, Maxie, Cyrus and Lysandre all fall between these two tiers. Insane people, but not unclear motives.
>Meh, Shit
Ghetsis falls between these two. Batshit insane, tries to destroy his region twice, become a dictator and kill the MC on screen. No clear motive other than being evil and power greedy.
>Villains ranked by motivations
This absolute wankstain got a far bigger emotional response than almost every complex motives villain out there
>>26654344
Yeah it's hinted that Giovanni was involved in Mewtwo's creation in the games. Also pretty much all of Team Rockets plans in RBY can be linked together as Giovanni trying to come up with a way of recapturing Mewtwo.
>Has his Grunts scouring Mt.Moon for fossils so he can revive one cause if no living Pokemon can match Mewtwo maybe a long extinct one can.
>Runs the Nugget Bridge to find competent trainers to recruit to battle Mewtwo also Cerulean Cave is right next to it so could also be keeping an eye on Mewtwo's hiding place.
>Steals the Silph Scope to catch Ghost Pokemon cause Ghosts beat Psychic Types.
>Invades Silph Co to get the Master Ball, the one Pokeball that will definitely be able to hold Mewtwo.
>Running a casino to get the funding to pull all this crap off.
>>26654505
>But it's not [...] evil for evil's sake
Evil for evil's sake is Lobo wiping out his own people just 'cause.
Lysandre was insane, but he wasn't being a dick just because he thought it would be funny.
>>26654476
None of that was headcanon at all, people just generally have a poor grasp of what Lysandre was about, and I'm not really sure why. His archetype is pretty cut and dry by now.
if we go off OP's qualifications
but I like Ghetsis for his manipulation of Plasma
>>26655073
OP just listed the villains by order of gen, not as order of the tiers.
>>26654154
This list is shit, a good vilain is a vilain who fit the story and is well written.
>>26654154
nigga by your same exact logic, that is EXACTLY why Team Rocket were the best villains.
>>26654394
>His motive was to rid the world of corruption, war, fighting, greed, anything that makes the world itself ugly
If he would have taken the time to think about it for more than two seconds, he would've seen his own mistake.
1) I've always hated the qualifications for this tier chart. All villains that seem insane are automatically meh tier? The majority of villains out there aren't totally in their right mind. So by this retarded chart's logic, the majority of villains are only meh.
2) If I never have to see /vp/ try to discuss Lysandre's motives again it'll be too soon. Although he falls under multiple tiers, he fits high tier best. I wouldn't argue with a great tier placement, though.
tl;dr this tier template has always been stupid and everyone should really stop trying to talk about Lysandre because GF clearly wrote him a bit too complex for the average /vp/ user.
>>26654154
OP's list is right.
>>26654154
The tier descriptions make this pretty unbiased, but I think everything with Ghetsis was amazing.
>>26655498
I mean, I don't get it. It's not like the good guy with the best intentions and the worst of and is a totally original or hard to grasp concept. Was it something about how it was presented in game? Cyrus gets kind of misunderstood too but not to the same level as Lysandre who often gets way too oversimplified when by nature his archetype is not one dimensional. On the contrary I see Ghetsis being overly glorified and while he was gloriously evil he was not a villain with much depth as his archetype is typically not. That's not an issue but when people talk about wanting complex or deep characters, well...
>>26654154
>Ghestis
>reluctant
He's an exact clone of Giovanni and belongs in the same tier.
>>26655498
Lysandre nothing, you should see them try to talk about Zinnia.
>>26655615
I think it's probably because to get the fullest understanding of him you'd have to actually pay attention to not only what he says, but what Sycamore, some Flare members, and a few random NPCs, like his old friend in Snowbelle and a ranger who talks about how he owes everything to Lysandre, say as well. Not to mention Lysandre's notes in the optional room in Flare HQ, which explain his past the most explicitly. So I'd like to chalk it up to just laziness, but I know there are still some people who just don't get it after all that.
>defending lysandre
>being a facist
You guys are pretending he's devolpers when he just tells you he going to make the world great again and that people are flith 3 times. He's just Cyrus 2.0
>>26655876
You do know this thread is supposed to be discussing and comparing Pokemon villains? None of them are going to be the greatest, most well-developed character of all time because it's fucking Pokemon. Writing has never been the strong suit or focus of the games, so with that in mind I'd say he's pretty impressive.
Also he's really not that similar to Cyrus, holy fuck. If you seriously think the guy who prides himself on dismissing compassion and emotions in general is the same as the dude who cries because he feels too terribly over what he "needs" to do to all Pokemon, I don't know what to say to you. That's not even getting into the differences between their visions of "ideal" worlds.
>>26654154
Fixed according to what I believe best matches each villain.
>>26656029
Cyrus wanted life to continue, but only in his own image in order to render all conflict pointless.
Lysandre wanted to wipe out all life, but he also said he wanted to keep everyone in Team Flare alive. It seemed strange to me that the people in Team Flare were, for the majority, really horrible people who only got in through buying their way in. If Lysandre really wanted a beautiful world, why leave the remains of it in the hands of assholes who'd go full Lord of the Flies given the situation?
>>26656157
I think Lysandre wanted people who were kinda dumb
>they have to be willing to waste $5 million to join super secret club
>many of them are kinda oblivious to Flare's real goal
>Lysandre uses the money they threw at him to build his facilities
>>26654249
Is that headcanon or ifricial about M2?
I liked Ghetsis because he was just a a generic evil villain. No retarded morals. Just good old wanton tyranny.
Lysandre and Cyrus literally, LITERALLY have a severe form of legit autism.
>>26654154
>A villain needs to be human and related-able to be a good villain
>that shitty elder god and great tier description
What makes a villain great is beyond their motivations, its the way they go about doing it. I villain can have good intentions, but if they go about achieving this goal in some completely unrelated destructive way their not a good villain.
A great villain can have a simple motivations, like desire for power and control, but if their a master manipulator and display incredible cunning, then they can be actual god tier villains.
>>26656191
I don't think Lysandre even did that much to make sure they were safe though. He sent them all out to go out to fight so nobody else could get inside, and he knew the blast would drop back down on the tower like it did when AZ first used it.
Kinda think maybe he said what he did on the Holocaster just so the grunts wouldn't turn against him last minute and ruin his plans for worldwide genocide including them.
>>26655812
See, this is just an extremely oversimplified interpretation of him. He wasn't just a "dlfascist", he wanted to defend the best people who contributed the most to society. One barometer hebused was how much money they made, but the point of the Flare Grunts was to show how shallow people could be based on that, and it wasn't his only metric, just the one that helped pay to do his research and meet his goals. He offered to protect you, and acknowledged Diantha's beautiful contributions to society. He wanted to protect legitimate contributors to society. Not just for shallow reasons like race or l, say, beliefs or whatever, but he wanted to remove actual criminals and fascists.
God tier: Cyrus, easily. His plot might essentially boil down to "rewrite the world" but he's doing it by manipulating space/time via the red chain he tortured out of the pixies. Destroying soul and emotions to become a god? Thats FUCKING SINISTER. He's the only one who came close to succeeding too, if Giratina didn't fuck his shit up.
Great/High: Ghetsis I guess. His plot was unique for the series, and pretty scary at that. Terrorize the populace, then become king of a neo-future type empire of pokemon? Pretty scary, just never clear. Also he tries to fucking impale you.
High tier: N/A
Mid tier: Maxie. Wanted to advance humanity by expanding land via controlling the king of the land. Pretty cool, pretty useful in the long run for humanity perhaps. Just not exactly well though out, when it came to controlling groudon.
Meh tier: Giovanni. Nothing crazy, but that's what's good about him. Just a power hungry mobster, which is always a fun time.
Shit tier: Archie. "DUHH let's wipe out the land even though 80+ percent of the Earth is water! GENIUS!"
Shitty Ripoff tier: Lysandre. What the fuck? Literally a shitty cyrus ripoff without the backstory, without the lore, without the amazing climax, and the worst case of "I'm totally not the main villain syndrome" I've ever seen, EVER.
N isn't a villain.
Colress
He is a scientist, a cruel one, he enslave pokemon in order to get their real power, but in fact, he doesn't do this bc he is evil, but bc he is naive.
He seeks power, and he knows that the bonds between human and pokemon are stronger than machines, he can't understand it, but he wants to archieve it, artificially.
At the end, he is just a curious kid, when he met us, he slowly started to understand those bonds, he realized that team plasma isn't a good way to achieve it, he decided to forfeit, and continue his experiments alone, without harming pokemon or human.
His motives are great, but his actions, aren't.
>>26656394
Agree with God Tier and High Tier.
Would move Giovanni to Mid Tier along with Maxie, and put Lysandre on Meh Tier. He's fine (his grunts are just shit; fashionable shit, but shit), it's just that Gamefreak got a little lazy in developing his character, and it takes some mental gymnastics to make sense of his master plan.
>>26656715
Pretty much everything said here >>26654454 is all stated in game, though. It doesn't take mental gymnastics to put together his story. There was very little if any interpetation there.
>>26656763
Fair point. Maybe I just wasn't paying much attention to XY's story.
I'd still put him in Meh Tier, but it's just from a personal view. He just wasn't very interesting as a villain for me compared to the others; even Giovanni, who really did jack all, but had a good threatening design to back him up (along with the anime).
His hair is glorious though.
>>26656136
I would disagree as far s actually quality goes, where I think OP was spot-on.
I agree that the definitions were flimsy as was described by >>26654242 and that you're more technically correct if you abide by them, though.
My list from best to worst'd go Lysandre (because if the pokemon world does abide by the logic of pokemon being unwilling slaves whenever we're not looking, he's both morally in the right and a complete monster simultaneously, which was interesting) Cyrus (Just because he was intimidating as fuck), Groundnigger/Seafaggot (cool charecters, but their motevations seemed pretty retarded. I mean, not enough sea in Hoenn? Really?), Giovani, and Ghestis, with N not making it since he was basically a hero antagonist being manipulated by Ghestis, and Ghestis being at the bottom because his personality can pretty much literally be described as "evil boss", whereas at least Giovanni saw the errors of his ways and had the thing with silver in HGSS, which makes him dismally better.
I think the real problem with idealistic Pokemon antagonist like Cyrus, N, Archie/Maxwell, and Lysandre, though, is that the Pokemon World is, at least from what we see in-game, fucking perfect (no wars, serious crimes, etc) and that despite all the rambling they give about pokemon not being happy, all the pokemon we see seem totally fine with just about fucking everything. If they want to tell us that the world is fucked, the game should show us the fucked up nooks and crannies of the world first.
>>26656899
To be fair, Cyrus was slightly different from the likes of Lysandre and the rest.
His deal wasn't so much that the world was shit, just that people were imperfect due to their emotions, which is fairly obvious to anyone. Emotions cause you to do stupid shit all the time, and even Cyrus himself was guilty of this (he himself states he hates himself for feeling any emotions).
You can infer that Cyrus's whole problem wasn't that the world needed fixing, but that every single mistake in history should be undone by deleting the impulsive aspects of emotion. And if you go into headcanon territory: prevent any more children from being neglected (or abused, if you really want to go that route) by their parents.
That's why Cyrus is my favorite evil villain so far. His grand plan isn't "I will make a new world and become god", it's "I will turn everybody, even myself, into perfect beings". He's not a megalomaniac who thinks he's better than everybody; he's flawed and despises his own flawed nature, and will stop at nothing to tear it out of himself.
>>26656949
This is kind of what I meant when I said I thought Cyrus was also oversimplified and thusly often misunderstood. I think Lysandre is a smidge better in my opinion but Cyrus was pretty good as far as having real motivations and reasons behind is actions, but like Lysandre it isn't at all out in the open, it's something you piece together using multiple sources. Ghetsis didn't need that kind of development of cause he was simply an evil guy that wanted to rule the world. We were given as far as I recall no real reason he wanted to do that. He just did.
I think Ghetsis was fun in how crazily evil he was but it's not very deep or meaningful which is a shame since I think the core ideas behind BW's story (truth versus ideals, treatment of Pokemon, etc.) were amazing and something uniquely Pokemon, something only Pokemon can do. And they have this great set up of N versus you fielding truth or ideals and in the end you two are just on the same side and Ghetsis is the real bad guy and the conflict between you two was mostly only manipulation on Ghetsia's behalf.
I think XY's ideas aren't unique to Pokemon, far from it as it's basically a generic JRPG plot as is DP's, but I think unlike DP's it APPLIES uniquely to Pokemon (as opposed to it being unique to Pokemon). And I think Lysandre was a generally well executed character stereotype. I just think it might not work so well since from our perspective, the Pokemon world is all sunshine and rainbows. But as a philanthropist in the region of Kalos where money, power, and appearances are the ideala, it makes a lot of sense that he would see the side of humanity he criticizes even if we actually don't.
>>26654154
>>26657325
I'm too tired to give you a proper response, but I'd just like to say that it's so refreshing to see someone who knows what they're talking about on this board. Keep it up.
>>26657325
You make some very interesting points about Lysandre, and (along with other posts in this thread) are actually making me look at him in a different light. If I didn't have so many perfectly bred pokemon in Y, I'd definitely start a new game so I could look deeper into the story, and create a more detailed opinion of the lion's mane.
Honestly, if gens 4, 5, and 6 were picked up by a company who put more focused on story, they could all be really interesting tales. That's the most frustrating thing about pokemon: great story ideas, but the execution is often lackluster.
I think Origins gets a lot of shit but I think one thing it did really was molding Giovanni into a really compelling character. He is pretty much nothing in the ges but it really puts it in perspective in Origins. He grows up, become obsessed with the need for adults to lose their childish nature and focus on pursuits of power and money. But Red shows him how to have fun and enjoy Pokemon again, instead of only using then as a means to make a living. I thought it was a really great metaphor, perfect for Pokemon, and perfect backstory and motivation for a guy who was just a gangster. I wonder how truly csnon it is to the games.
GOD TIER: Archie/Maxie
COOL TIER: Giovanni, N
MEH TIER: Ghetsis
BORING TIER: Lysander, Cyrus
>>26657351
>Mao
I know this is satire, but it still makes my balls hurt.
>>26657475
>Origins gets a lot of shit
Are people really this autistic?
>all those unovaborts thinking anything plasma related is good
>>26656394
This. What about Colress?
>>26657514
I can agree with Maxie since the Earth is 75% water but Archie? C'mon man.
>>26657604
>tfw those retards cannot just make it 50/50
>>26657579
Personally I never played BW2 so I don't know about him. He sounds like a decent antagonist though.
>>26654154
>A villain is shit when he's evil
>>26654154
Your taste is objectively shit.
>>26655109
Agreed with this, the definitions are stupid.
>>26656262
Lysandre was already rich as fuck, I doubt he needed money from grunts to do research. I just got the impression he viewed non-wealthy/poor people as scum.
>>26654154
>Ghetsis
>reluctant villain
Explain.
>>26655073
>Colress
>relunctant
He's more affably evil, mostly for scientific progress and nothing else.
>>26658500
OP's image is pure bait
>>26654264
Cyrus is an exceptionally cliche anime villain.
Lysandre pretty much wanted to annihilate everyone and everything because he thought this was the right move for the world.
So he is pretty much on the same level as Cyrus in terms of goals, motives, character etc.
I enjoyed him since he was more of a friendly guy to you and evil on the backside.
>muh game of thrones villain rankings
Fuck you
Lysandre is hard to disagree with?
The guy is a complete lunatic and at no point in the story are we shown faults in the Pokemon World that would make us agree with the idea of killing everything. I get genociding Earth to restart with good people but the Pokemon World? The place is literally perfect to the point its just a ridiculous children's fantasy.
N is someone you could agree with because he's Dr. Dolittle the animal rights activist. Every other Pokemon villain is a thug, an idiot or insane.
>>26660168
I agree, maybe if the pokemon world was exactly like hours, he might have had a point.
>>26660168
>>26660184
>>26660207
I'm reminded of the Dwarves in Chrono Cross where they get onto the fairies and Serge and his gang for being destructive to the environment, when in reality Chrono Cross has none of the problems they're clearly talking about. It's a kind of message more suited to the real world than the game world, and it seems fairly...I dunno a word, living its lie?
>>26657793
Play it. If you like HGSS you'll like it
>>26660173
literally summer
>>26660244
Or you know BW1
>>26654304
not even anime, its even worse: Pokespe
>>26660168
Cyrus is a sociopath, while Lysandre is a narcissist.
>>26654249
don't use pokespe as canon. Pokespe is the farthest from canon out of any pokemon related media
>>26654249
>Zinnia
>anatogonist
>>26654249
>>26654304
Can someone explain this shit to me? I can't find a single source.
>>26654857
>Cause ghost beats psychic
gen 1
I'm biased since he's one of my favorite Pokemon characters but I think people don't give Archie enough credit. Yes, it was stupid of him to think he could control a legendary and that his plan wouldn't just result in everything drowning. But his motivation wasn't bad. He wanted to stop humans from encroaching on water Pokemon's territory and polluting the ocean. He hated how humans cared only for their own advancement to the detriment of Pokemon + the environment, and thought Kyogre would help return things to their original, natural state.
Basically he's more an extremist environmentalist/animal rights activist than a complete idiot who just wanted to drown the world for no reason.
>>26660492
Literally same argument for Maxie.
Both of them are extreme idiots who despite their environmental focus have absolutely no knowledge regarding the environment.
They're both only saved from shit-tier because they're not evil.
>>26660184
I question him wanting to have any sort of a restart. It goes against his morals in thinking all people are inherent in their sin. I think the only reason he said he'd save the grunts was just so they wouldn't turn against him last minute upon hearing he was going to kill everyone anyway.
>>26660492
Did he ever specifically say water Pokemon? I thought he meant all Pokemon.
>>26661919
It's been awhile since I played AS, but I'm pretty sure he focused on the ocean, and most Pokemon who live in the ocean are water type. He probably cares about all Pokemon but was most concerned about the destruction of the seas.
>shit tier: Ghetis. Boring abusive prick no thanks
>meh tier: Lysandre like literally what the fuck he loves pokemon and then attempts to murder 99.9% of all of them
>mid tier: Giovanni, Cyrus. Similar to Ghetis except they pull it off with more style, kickass mafia boss and Cyrus held up his intimidation factor the whole way through.
>great tier: Archie, Archie Archie Archie I may be a Johtoddler but this guy's personality just launches him to my favorites.
>elder god tier: N. Because honestly it felt like the game was pulling shit out of it's ass (ghetis) to make team plasma classic the villans. N was right about a lot of things.
>>26662398
>Lysandre like literally what the fuck he loves pokemon and then attempts to murder 99.9% of all of them
He's insane. Legitimately. He's also impressive in his own right because it takes some strong willpower to devote yourself to doing something awful that you really don't want to do. The insanity helped with that, but still.
>>26662398
>great tier: Archie, Archie Archie Archie I may be a Johtoddler but this guy's personality just launches him to my favorites
I like you anon
>>26654154
Giovanni was just a businessman, the whole world domination thing for Team Rocket is new. All he did was made deals with companies to secure profits while managing a criminal syndicate that generated these profits.
N was a lunatic, Ghetsis was actually evil.
Lysandre is batshit crazy.
>>26654154
You idiot. What makes Team Rocket such good villains IS the fact that they're simply criminals with no insane world resetting goals. They are bad people instead of lunatics who have dubious goals and can be forgiven because of how foolish they were in actually believing awakening an ancient, uncontrollable beast with unlimited power would actually benefit humanity at all.
>>26657351
FTFY
>>26662398
I guess you could say Lysandre loved Pokemon so much he couldn't stand to see them suffer. Though at the same time he didn't really care that made a lot of them suffer personally in order to power the machine.
>>26654154
Just ranking them:
>N
>Ghetsis
>Colress
>Lysandre
>ORAS Archie/Maxie
>Cyrus
>Giovanni
>Archer
>RSE Maxie/Archie
>>26654423
eh, pretty much
Giovanni had no goals besides making money.
Maxie wanted to create more land for human expansion.
Archie was an environmentalist
Cyrus wanted to remove all irrationality in the universe
Ghetsis wanted to establish a police state in Unova where Plasma is the police along with disarming the population of their weapons pokemon
Colress went to any lengths for his research
Ghetsis again tried to takeover Unova
Lysandre was a madman who knew the perfect way for his ideology to go unchallenged was to kill everything except his own organization.
>>26654505
But it's not for evils sake, Evils sake would be if he did it for the kicks or no real reason at all, Lysandre genuinely believed that what he was doing was the right thing to do and that ending so many lives would save the planet.
Obviously he was wrong by our standards but by his standards? It was correct, the same can be said for Hitler, Obviously a fucking douchebag but he did what he did because he believed in it not because he was just being a evil asshole.
>>26660410
Ghosts were SUPPOSED to beat Psychics in Gen 1 but GameFreak fucked up the coding.
>>26654857
The fact that you believe so strongly in this fan theory amuses me. It requires such big leaps of logic to connect Giovanni to Mewtwo. Giovanni lusts for money and power, that alone explains away everything you said. Yes, it would be perfectly within his character to go after Mewtwo, but the link is not there.
>Has his Grunts scouring Mt.Moon for fossils so he can revive one cause if no living Pokemon can match Mewtwo maybe a long extinct one can.
Or he just wants strong Pokemon so he can further his own goals. Maybe he wants to sell them? It isn't clear what his goal is here.
>Runs the Nugget Bridge to find competent trainers to recruit to battle Mewtwo also Cerulean Cave is right next to it so could also be keeping an eye on Mewtwo's hiding place.
If Team Rocket didn't bring in new people, it would die. A Team with no members is not a team at all. Their proximity to Cerulean Cave is the most compelling argument here, and even that can be written off as coincidence. There are grunts all over Kanto, here they just happen to be near Cerulean Cave.
>Steals the Silph Scope to catch Ghost Pokemon cause Ghosts beat Psychic Types.
kek
Also there is no evidence that ghost was supposed to beat psychic in Gen I until the anime and Gen II. At least, as far as I know. I'm pretty sure there are no NPCs that say "btw, use ghosts against Sabrina". I don't think GF just fucked up programming.
>Invades Silph Co to get the Master Ball, the one Pokeball that will definitely be able to hold Mewtwo.
Or any other powerful Pokemon, like the Legendary Birds, which are pretty common knowledge in Kanto, unlike Mewtwo who nearly no one knows about.
>Running a casino to get the funding to pull all this crap off.
Or because he likes money.
>>26667948
Actually In Saffron Gym there's a trainer who states Psychics "fear only Bugs and Ghosts", indicating that they did originally intend it to be the case. Also strategy guides published by Nintendo said to use Ghosts against Psychics.
But yeah I'll admit it does take a bit of a leap in logic to connect the two, but its just my interpretation of events cause it adds more to Giovanni's character and makes him way more interesting than just being a generic mafia boss guy without being too infeasible.
>>26662398
Lysandre says in Y that he would wipe out something beautiful in an instant so that it would always be remembered at its best. That was why he wanted to destroy all Pokemon, so they couldn't be used more and more as weapons to coerce and steal. also maybe some shades of how people think there should, say, be no guns. That kind of thing.
