>Fairy nerfs soon
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>Fairy nerfs soon
finally
>>26543484
Ze proofs
I require them
>P5 soon
but why? Fairy is fine!
If anything poison and steel need way more attacks that are useful and a wider distribution.
>>26543520
I agree with this
>>26543520
This. The best special poison moves need the opponent to be poised or to consume a berry.
Steel needs high BP moves period
Make it no longer resist bug and give it a weakness to grass.
>>26543520
fairy is more defensive than steel currently , they had to nerf steel (no darkness resist). Fair is terrible as it can counter most teams with the plethora of se they gave fairy.
>>26543520
I'd say that Fairy would need more resists and weaknesses, mostly to avoid more Steel/Fairy mons with Air Balloons and whatnot.
I have to admit I may be a little biased, as I've always been mad about how Fairy type exists when Ice types could've been buffed and they could've added, say, Steel as one of Dragon's weaknesses
>>26543601
Fairies do not counter most teams. Fire types resist fairies and are pretty prevalent in the meta.
The fairy type also gets its ass handed to it by most physical sweepers.
Steel is usually more physically defensive while fairies are more specially defensive.
>>26543622
Agreeing that ice types need a buff. Like at least resistance to water or something small like that.
I don't believe in fairies.
I don't believe in fairies.
I don't believe in fairies.
I don't believe in fairies.
I don't believe in fairies.
>>26543573
Why in the fuck would a fairy be weak to grass?
>>26543733
Balance
>>26543712
>>26543759
I had forgotten how sexy Tinkerbell is, i believe in her.
>>26543755
No, I mean how would that make sense when fairies are magical woodland creatures? I could understand a weakness to electricity or something but a grass weakness is just silly
>>26543797
Swap it around, give grass a resistance to Fairy.
>>26543705
The best buff you could give ice types? They can learn water attacks like how the majority of water types can learn ice type attacks
...also make hail damn useful for them like the other weathers.
>Sun: stronger fire attacks, water less effective, solar beam one turn etc
>Rain: Stronger water attacks, fire less effective, thunder/hurricance 100% Swift swim etc
>Sand: Ground/rock/steel immune, Rock gets 50% special defense, great abilities
>Hail: ....100% blizzard mainly
Wouldn't kill GF to increase their already shit defense by 50% in hail
>>26543865
Okay that I can understand and get behind. Grass desperately needs the buff.
Holy shit a compromise on vp the end times are near
>>26543891
Fifty is a bit much, I could see going as far as 25%...
I like that as an added usefulness to hail though, maybe an increase to defense and evasiveness. Make it lower the attack of non ice types
If anything Water needs to be nerfed.
>>26543930
Tyranitar getting 50% s.def buff while wearing an assault vest and then another 50% in sand thanks to sand stream is overkill
>>26543959
Grass should lose the poison weakness and it should be given to Water.
Now all the starter types have the same number of weakness.
>>26543959
Water is pretty balanced, what is your reasoning?
>>26544008
Like tainting water, I like it.
>>26543959
The only accept nerf Water is actually buffing Ice to resist it and lose it's weakness to Rock.
>>26543976
Tyranitar has seven fucking weaknesses, though.Just like both of the Snow Warning 'mons, come to think of it.
>>26544008
No, Grass would still have four weaknesses (Fire, Flying, Ice, and Bug) while the other two would be left with three.
>>26544070
Ice shouldn't resist rock anyways, Ice breaks up water naturally.
>>26544022
>Water
>balanced
>just keeps getting stronger every gen
Masuda, pls go.
>>26544089
Scratch that first point, Aurorus has six weaknesses. Not that it matters, since Rock/Ice is an all-around shittier defensive type combo than Rock/Dark or Grass/Ice.
>>26544113
Nah man, water pokemon have been getting better because of their type pairings. Such as wash rotom, Quagsire and Azumirall/ The type is fairly balanced
If one counts the 2 quad weaknesses as 2 extra weaknesses that makes 8 for aurorus...and not having pseudo legend stats to fall back on
>>26543520
Poison does fine with Sludge Bomb and Gunk Shot. Just buff Flash Cannon to 90 power and Iron Tails acc to 90.
The real problem is that you sacrifice a moveslot for far less coverage.
Fairy isn't broken at all, you fucking false-flaggers.
Poison needs buffed. Steel needs an offensive buff and a defensive nerf.
The only nerf Fairies should get is losing its resistance to Bug, not because it's OP, but because Bug needs the buff.
>>26544327
>Fairy isn't broken at all
>Amazing offensive and defensive typing
>>26544327
This is correct.
>>26544347
Lots of types are good offensively and defensively.
>>26543686
>>26544327
Faries do not counter most teams because most fairies are shitmons. The first Fairy that isn't a gimmickfag is going to be OP as fuck.
Fairy is the best type in the game defensively, and one of the best offensively, and this is before taking into account which weakness and resistances it has. It is weak to literally the shittiest offensive types in the game, yet resists or is outright immune to several of the best. On offence, it similarly covers extremely valuable types, while being NVE against exactly one notable type, Steel. Don't get me started on Moonblast, the best move in the game. Earthquake without the massive chunk of pokemon immune to it AND an added effect? Fuck me in the Ozarks, and sign me up!
Fucking Clefable took a rocket-ship to OU with its new type. What happens when the Fairy Pseudo shows up? The big six just got a new face. Prevent that from happening by making Fairy not Fuck-the-man OP.
Bug resistance? Fuck that noise.
Super effective against Fighting? BTFO.
Take that punkass Grass resistance, and laugh as Grass gets its fancy new resistance. Psychic neutrality? Ha! You wish, meet the next Fairykillers.
>>26544446
I am unsure of what side you are on.
>>26543514
This! Also, Chie best girl.
>>26544446
I'm pretty sure Clefable got to OU because it finally got a reliable special STAB.
How can you call Moonblast the best move in the game when it's literally Flamethrower with 5 more BP?
>>26544446
>Fairy
>better defensive type than Dragon or Steel
>>26544515
10 more BP anon.
>>26544096
...did you mean to say
>Ice shouldn't resist Water anyways; Ice breaks up Rock naturally
or
>Ice shouldn't resist Rock anyways; Ice breaks up Rock naturally
...because I'm lost either way, and even more lost if the original text was the intended text
>>26544721
I meant
>rock shouldn't be super effective against ice; ice breaks up rocks anyways.
This is why shouldn't post high.
>>26543601
3 isn't a plethora.
That being said, it is ridiculous that it only has 2 weaknesses, weaknesses that are very uncommon offensive moves. Its also stupid that it randomly resists bug. It is certainly in need of a nerf.
>>26544781
>randomly resists bug
in folklore fairies repel bugs
>>26544680
it's 95 BP, anon
and it doesn't hit everything in Doubles
Anyone saying that a resist/weakness has to make sense seems to forget that Fairy is immune to Dragon.
Now how does that makes sense?
>>26543567
>iron tail
>iron head
>flash cannon
>>26544851
>Iron Tail
ha, way to go, Pikachu!
>>26544833
Pixie dust kills dragons
>>26544887
There are many good reasons for Fairy>Dragon, but not enough to make Igglybuff impervious to Draco Meteors.
>>26544913
I... I can't argue with this
>>26543622
This. Fairy type is cancer. If they wanted to buff Steel and beef Dragon they didn't need to add an entire fucking new (cancerous) type. Steel should be SE against Dragon and Outrage should be cut down on power, like 100 or 95. And as an indirect Dragon need, Ice types should be buffed. Resist Dragon and maybe remove its Rock weakness or something. Or better yet, if they wanted to nerf Fighting too, get rid of Ice's Fighting weakness too. Now without Rock and Fighting weakness, Ice is a defensively viable type. That being said, you could now remove Grass's weakness to Ice since Ice got its needed buffs. That would remove Water's overwhelming dominance in that type triangle since Watwr types can learn Ice attacks by default for whatever reason.
There. Type chart fixed. Bug could use a little boost too though. And Rock (defensively).
>>26544995
>Fairy type is cancer
But anon fairies cure cancer
>>26544851
I mean like the close combat of steel moves
>>26544913
Yeah you're right. I had never really thought of it like that. The real reason though was to hurt dragons. Mainly by giving people a safe switch into outrage and Draco meteor instead of getting shit fucked even on a wall of the appropriate type and stat.
>>26544753
s'cool my dude
I kind of agree, kind of disagree; it's pretty easy to smash ice with a rock, so the super effective status makes sense.
However, by virtue of basic geography, I would like to see it work as a reverse Bug vs. Fighting relationship, where Ice and Rock hit each other super effectively... if Rock didn't already pack five other weaknesses. Don't want to plant six on those poor pure Rock guys, plus yet another (to make three total) 4x weaknesses for Rock/Ground types...Replace Rock's Ground weakness with the Ice weakness, maybe? Iunno. I like Ice and hope to see it buffed, but I really don't want to fuck over the Rock type this hard. Ice needs dat buff, but this is just not the way to do it.
To like the Ice type is to suffer eternally.
>>26544995
Butthurt: The post
>>26544913
>Draco Meteor could be considered a special phenomenon
Now lets talk about claws, tails and body attacks.
Like Dragon Claw, Dragon Tail and Dragon Rush.
I'd like to see ANYONE come up with a good reason for fairies to outright ignore physical strikes like those.
>>26545080
This is the same as flying types being immune to EQ but also being immune to Bonemerang
>>26545114
>"Bonemerang is a ground type attack that should be able to hit flying types"
>literally only defense for why Faries are immune to dragons
>>26545069
>to like ice types is to suffer eternally
kek
Yeah I guess rocks really don't deserve to get the short end of this stick. It would be nice if they just neutrally hit each other, and rocks could super effectively hit something else. Like fairy maybe
>>26545146
I wasn't defending fairy immunity to dragon, although I don't mind that to be honest. I just stated that the same thing goes to flying being immune to ground.
>>26545080
>>26545146
>being this anally upset over his precious dragons not being able to do shit for dick anymore
>>26545114
Honestly, if Boner-rang were a rock-type, it'd solve ALL problems it has, or at least give it the ability to hit flying types.
>>26545080
>>26545114
>>26545146
Let's keep in mind the mechanics of this game are pretty unrealistic in general
>>26545212
>>26544913
>>26545080
The same reason why a Flygon using Dig is immune to Earthquake:
Video game logic.
Stop whining about it.
>>26545240
>That one weird instance where types and abilities clash
>results are weird at best
>>26545224
Hit points are an abstraction, and not a measure of bodily damage.
>>26545080
>>26545309
Nigga that't not the point, if you hit a small bird with an energy beam it would fucking explode into oblivion. Not faint. Realism is not the intention in pokemon.
>>26545391
I don't think you understood what I said. Hit points are not a measure of bodily damage, they are an abstraction. You are not actually blasting the bird with the energy beam. This is a fairly core concept in pretty much all PnP games.
>>26545271
Okay, I'll do more, I guess.
>Bonemarang doesn't touch Flying types
>pokemon that are standing on the ground have Levitate
>a pokemon with 2 HP at max health can survive an attack that does an infinite amount of damage as long as they have Sturdy, that one move that lets them survive what was supposed to be a fatal hit, or a Focus Sash
>PP in general
>pretty much every pokemon can learn Toxic
This is not a game that necessarily has to make logical sense. Fairy type is immune to Dragon type, and that is all there is to it.
>>26545414
>You are not actually blasting the bird with the energy beam.
Okay anon you've lost me. Hit points are a representation of damage taken, which implies bodily damage. The movies even have graphic descriptions that suggest bodily damage, so please explain what you mean by
>they are an abstraction
>>26545477
Well for starters they are not a representation of damage taken, I keep saying that. Hit points, being an abstraction, are hard to define, because they are abstract. I can try to give you an example, however.
Imagine you are a fresh-out-of-training swordsman, you have new clean armor and a sword that is maybe a little heavy. You get into your first combat. Your opponent swings at you. You tuck your shoulder and let it glance off your armor, it doesn't actually hurt you but you are worn out from it. You take 5 damage from this. You recognize that if you take another swing like that, you might not have the strength to block properly and deflect that attack, you have a maximum hp total of 10. You swing at him, critical hit. Your sword finds the narrowest of spaces between his shoulderplate and helm and his head falls off.
Now later, you are a seasoned warrior. An opponent challenges you. Their axe comes sideways towards your shoulder. You've seen this attack before, you remember it from your first opponent, you gained experience from that fight and are better equipped to handle this one. This is represented by having 50 hit points. The attack deflects off easily. You feel as though you could shrug off these beginner tactics all day. You perform a maneuver that took you years to learn, and to represent that it deals more hit point damage. The rookie attacking you doesn't know how to handle that, as another seasoned warrior might. He dies instantly.
Hit points are not a measure of how many times you can be stabbed before you die, they are an abstraction that represent how good you are at surviving a stabbing. It's hard to explain, but it's a concept that's been around for a long time.
>>26545576
If damage is an abstraction, so are types.
>>26545593
Sure, mostly. Or it doesn't matter how a grass type manages to maneuver or block a fire attack, unless the attack completely misses there's no way for the grass pokemon to effectively defend against it. Even the most veteran of grass pokemon would struggle with dealing with fire, and while they may have learned a thing or two, it will still likely be fatal to them. Imagine that same seasoned warrior in metal armor against an electric stun baton. Unless the stunner totally fails to make contact, the warrior will pretty much be SOL.
Again, this is an abstraction. There are no perfect metaphors and no exact model to represent it.
>>26545576
It's still a small bird being hit by a laser beam
You can only abstract things so far before they get stupid
>>26545627
It's not getting hit by the laser beam, please pay attention. The hit points are not a measure of bodily harm, and so the bird is not being hit.
>>26545627
If that small bird were level 100, it would have parried the beam with a flap of it's wing, obviously.
>>26545624
But this isn't what we are discussing really, we are talking more about the mechanics of the game. You don't talk about battle abstraction when talking about chess do you?
>>26545645
Accuracy is a thing. When a move misses, it says the opponent avoided the attack. Therefore, when a move hits, it actually hits the opponent. Please pay attention.
>>26545657
This isn't chess. I'm explaining to you why the pidgey only faints. Aside from the comic's depiction of Hyper Beam being wholy unfaithful to the source, it doesn't actually strike the bird, or if it does it blasts away feathers that kept it in the air, to burns away the air around it knocking it out, or even frightens it into passing out. You're not actually getting struck with a fuckhuge laser beam, because the hp drain isnt a representation of bodily harm, because hit points are an abstraction.
>>26545678
I'm aware that this concept is abstract, and hard to grasp for the first time. I assure you that pretty much all PnP games since the 50s have operated under this understanding and most /tg/ people can grasp it. A missed attack is an attack that failed because of the user, generally speaking, which is why it costs the target nothing.
>>26544327
>Steel needs a defensive nerf
You mean the unnecessary one we just got? No. Steel needs an offensive buff, Poison also does, and Ice needs an overhaul. Nerf Fairy by taking out the retarded Fighting SE and Bug Resistance.
>>26543484
stupid noobs. Fairy does not need a nerf
>>26545735
t. overweight fairyfag
>>26545645
>>26545686
If I'm understanding this correctly: HP =/= bodily damage. HP represents mettle, whereas damage represents harm. Pokémon attacks cause HP loss, but not bodily harm. Is this the right idea?
>>26545707
I understand what a fucking abstraction is. I'm saying that you're taking it too far when Pokemon puts it in very simple terms.
The fucking anime shows moves hitting when they hit and the games talk about moves as if they actually hit the opponent, especially with moves like Jump Kick, where not hitting the opponent will cause the user to crash into the ground.
>>26545735
>>26545686
I dunno anon, it looks to me like you are getting hit with a huge fucking laser beam to me
>>26545721
>wanting to give steel and poison more offensive buffs when they just received one
Why are steelfags and poisonfags so fucking greedy.
>>26545752
More or less. It might be important to note that in a lot of non-Gygaxian PnP there's a secondary measure of steadfastness usually called "wounds" or some other synonym. Basically, generally, if you take half your hit points or more in damage, get crit on, or some other method of direct harm, you suffer a more lasting effect. In my first example, the roomie soldier may have dislocated his shoulder blocking that attack, and can't recover that damage from a simple nights rest. This is represented in pokemon with thinks like Burns, Traps, or even Fainting. Again, it's abstract, so theres no set rule for what input means what outcome.
>>26545762
The anime is completely different and makes no sense whatsoever, and also clearly doesn't follow the games rules. On top of that, the pokemon in the anime don't have hit points.
>>26545745
t. overweight antifairyfag
>>26545823
If I wanted my comeback I'd ask your mom.
>>26545777
The anime isn't the games. Neither that Gyarados, nor its target, have hit points at all.
>>26545809
Fucking hell, dude. You still ignored the rest of my post. The games also talk about moves as if they're direct hits. And don't fucking talk down to me, I've seen the debates about HP and what it is. It's not very consistent in PnP, either, so don't act like it is.
>>26545576
Please stop the autist-fest. It is a game mechanic that has been in place since RPGs began. Hit points=health. In pokemon, the game devs didn't include death, so instead of reviving a fallen ally at a church or whatever, your pokemon faints. It's a game mechanic, nothing more.
>>26545852
I know it's not consistent. It's abstract. I literally just aid there's no set rules for which inputs define which outcomes. Are you not listening? In that very post you quoted I address the concerns of more descriptive moves. In addition to that however, I would say the moves description is of an ideal situation, and not of a consistent outcome. "The user rakes it's target with sharp metal claws" is the intent, or the outcome of a successful usage of the move, and not what happens every time you use it.
>>26545809
>>26545752
Okay, I think I totally get what you're saying. It's a little odd, but I can grasp how it works.
I think the argument people are making here is that the idea that something like the given examples WOULDN'T cause any sort of bodily harm is a bit silly, in any format.
I also think the beheading analogy threw us off a bit by not really connecting HP loss with head loss quite right. What is the HP of the beheaded guy? If that guy lost his head and all of his HP to a hit, why would Pidgey not be obliterated and lose all its HP to a laser blast? I think that's a big part of the concern here.
>>26545868
See, I'm 97% sure that this guy has the right idea out of all this and the whole "abstract concept" thing is just a bit of overthinking.
>>26543514
In 2017
>>26545887
Thank you anon
>>26545868
I have some news for you, PnP games predate vidya by a looooooong time. Decades even. Gary Gigax, the creator of the first edition of D&D, defined hp as this abstraction. The only reason hit points even exist as they do in vidya is because of the preconcieved notions in PnP.
>>26545887
I probably could have been more descriptive with my example, I didn't list all the numbers I should have. I had intended for the rookie who attacks you as a seasoned warrior to be on the same level as you when you started out, so 10hp. I had also intended for the attack that took years to learn to be devastating to a rookie, but to a veteran about as damaging as that first attack was to you as a rookie, so about 25 damage.
Yeah it's a little strange, as you say. It's kind of silly to think about hp this way, but it's much much less silly than thinking about it as direct consistent physical trauma. I think the fact that this conversation even started as a result of the reaction to the goofiness of that method of understanding is proof of that.
3 years later, they still mad
>>26545887
>>26545941
Oh, and i forgot to mention, the reason why he lost his head and pidgey didn't die is because it's just a different game. It may seems like a weak excuse but it's as simple as that. In Dark Souls you consistently take slash after stab to your body, but because you're undead and fueled by the magic of estus, the dark sign, and the bonfire, you're able to move on. It's a different game entirely.
>>26545941
I said RPGs, not video games you dumbass. As in Role-Playing Games. Which D&D is, you fucking twit. Now find a thread that is about abstractions, becaust this is about nerfs, mainly Fairy type getting nerfed. Good job derailing. Next time try Spiderman images. It takes less text we'll know it's a derail sooner.
>>26546058
You seem very upset. I'm not sure why you're taking this personally. I replied with a short one post explanation to a comic, and was asked to explain in more detail. I wasn't planning to derail.
>>26545787
Because Steel and Poison are garbage offensively, even after the buff that didn't help that much.
Poison and Steel need more moves.Maybe make Water weak to PoisonI can't think of a single steel or poison moves above 100 BP aside from Doom Desire.
>>26545946
fuck off wigger
>Fairies no longer resist bug
>make fairies weak to ice or bug or something
Boom, fixed
>>26544008
I like this idea
>>26544491
My man.
>>26545745
Yeah, not wanting a non broken type to be nerfed makes me over weight
/vp/ logic
>>26546087
>proving their point
>>26545946
Pretty much this.
>>26545075
Butt hurt about what?
>>26545473
A Pokemon must have full HP for sturdy to work, retard.
>>26546314
>2hp at max health
I wonder what part of this post you didn't read completely?
>>26546290
Fairies. Didn't you read the post?
>>26546369
>Literally no pokemon ever
How to fix game:
Grass resists rock and fairy.
Water weak to poison
Dark types immune to the secondary effects of dark type moves (basically fuck Knock Off)
Ice resists flying and ground
Fairy loses bug resist
Gunk shot gets wider distribution
Poison gets low accuracy, low pp 120 BP special attack move that gets perfect accuracy if used by a poison type.
Bug is supereffective against bug
Ghost loses bug resist
>>26545473
>that one move that lets them survive what was supposed to be a fatal hit
It's called Endure dumbass.
And a Focus Sash only works once; a Focus Band will work infinitely but still has to actually proc
>>26545059
There's always Doom Desire.
>>26545907
2018 for Europe tho :^)
>>26546833
Only Jirachi gets that move anyway.
>>26545946
Nice meme, my friend.
>>26543484
By nerf you mean taken completely out, right?
>>26543484
The bug and Grass stuff is the only thing that annoyed me about Fairy.
