Isn't this thing like the ultimate Stallbreaker?
Mold Breaker bypasses Unaware, at +1 it 2HKOs most Stall Pokemon with dual STAB alone and can set up a Substitute very easily versus Stall, like against a Quagsire.
Was thinking of using one paired with a Healing Wish user. This thing is an underrated threat.
>+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 169-199 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 196-232 (49.8 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I've seen a lot of SpDef Unaware Clef specifically for Manaphy, too.
>+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Amoonguss: 252-297 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
>+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Not like Quagsire is doing anything back. Can't even break Gyarados' sub at -1.
>+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 297-349 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
>+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 166-196 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
>+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Seismitoad: 195-231 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Whats up? You'd think with how much Stall is "dominating the meta", Mega Gyarados would see more use, yet he's chilling at 2% usage.
>>26453209
I admit it looks good on paper but typing is a major obstacle for it
Problem is, alot of people TWave or Encore Gyarados before it can DDance.
>>26453251
*to keep it from attacking.
>>26453209
>>+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 169-199 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then it gets burnt.
>>26453209
Unless you got Safeguard up, Sableye will just burn it.
No. There is not a single effective stall breaker that is not banned. If you try and think of one, sit and think, if everyone else on the ladder, way better than you, are not beating stall, why would you think your simplistic discovery is what they've been looking for. No there is no way to beat stall with the crop of available pokemon. Which was done on purpose. IF M Gyarados actually could beat stall, he would be banned too, just like all the other pokemon who could beat stall.
>>26453251
Sub/DD/Waterfall/Filler can be used to good success
This set suffers thanks to Talonflame, which is on every stall team and can be phased by Skamrory but other than that it could be successful
>>26453231
Yeah, didn't want to jump to conclusions. If it truly was that good it would be used more.
>>26453251
You could play it so that wouldn't happen, right? Gyara has Intimidate so it can set up on a lot of Choice-locked physical attackers or even just bulky ones, like Landorus-T locked into Earthquake, Azumarill locked into Waterfall (it can't 2HKO Azu without +2, though), TankChomp since Dragon Tail never breaks sub. Versus Stall, it comes in on Quagsire or Seismitoad or even Mega Sableye.
>>26453279
>>26453295
I said Sub in the OP. Sub / DDance / Waterfall / Crunch.
I was thinking of sacrificing some Speed for HP, since Gyarados is so bulky it doesn't really need that much speed.
>>26453304
I can think of a lot. Mega Gardevoir, Kyurem-Black, Mew, SubSeed Serperior, Rain Dance Manaphy. Smogon doesn't ban things because they threaten Stall, Smogon bans things that make Stall absolutely unplayable, which is what Hoopa-U did.
Want to know something funny? In gen V, everyone, EVERYONE was saying that Stall was dead, and Smogon critics were whining about how Smogon is protecting their precious HO. This is the first time since gen 2 that Stall has been even remotely good.
>takes 25% from meme rocks before it can mega and has no recovery outside of gimmicky RestTalk sets)
>Prankster Sableye Twave
>Prankster Sableye WoW
>Prankster Whimsicott Encore
>Chesnaught
>>26453344
Sub only work if Sableye already mega evolved.
>>26453344
None of those Pokemon you said beat stall, which is why stall is dominating. Please stop with your nonsense. Ok since apparently you've come up with the magic stradegy to beat stall, why don't you go and dethrone the stall players at the top of the ladder with your genius idea. It's not gonna happen because what you're saying is stupid. Also Hoopa U did not make stall unplayable, even when Hoopa U was around, stall was still on the top of the ladder, it just didn't dominate as much as it does now. But anything that doesn't make it retardedly easy for stall to win, smogon bans, which is why Hoopa U got banned. And everything else you said is wrong too.
>>26453372
Chesnaught and Whimsicott almost never show up in OU. That's like saying you shouldn'tpother with Darkrai in Ubers because primeape beats it.
All you have to do is wait for Sableye to mega, which it will do fucking immediately if send out something that might have hazards. Heatran is the best bet since it doesn't fear WoW.
>>26453377
Which they usually do turn one.
>>26453372
Whimsicott and Chesnaught are not common on Stall. Sableye doesn'doesn't learn Thunder Wave. Assuming you meant Klefki, which is not a Pokemon you should stay in on as a sweeper if you aren't immune to Twave/you don't have a Sub up.
>>26453382
>Everything you said is wrong because I said so
Hoopa-U absolutely dismantled stall and shit on pretty much any other playstyle, too. People were saying the same thing about Landorus-Incarnate and Mega Mawile, by the way.
People were seriously shittalking Smogon in gen V for banning Landorus-Incarnate because of how much it threatened HO. It's the same shit every gen, although worse this gen because of how many casuals came in from X and Y that don't understand how Smogon works.
>you've come up with the magic formula
Never said that, just listed Pokemon that threaten Stall without making it completely unplayable. Rain Dance Manaphy alone 6-0s most Stall teams, the only thing it really fears is SpDef Unaware Clef and it even beats that if it gets the Scald burn since Unaware doesn't ignore the Rain boost. Like with any Pokemon, using it on your team doesn't give you an automatic win. You have to play your cards correctly. Stall is hard to play against, and it is annoying to play against, but it's not unbreakable.
Can't say I wouldn't mind a Mega Sableye suspect test, though. The last time it was suspected it was suspected in conjunction with Shadow Tag.
>>26453495
Everything you said is wrong because of logic. You literally said Hoopa U made stall unplayable, despite the fact that while Hoopa U was legal, a stall player was the top player in OU. How does that make sense? Stall was so unplayable that it won the most? What are you talking about. No that's just something stallfags said to get it banned so that they could win even easier. Also personally I've used Rain Dance Manaphy against a stall team, it didn't beat it at all. In particular, Amoongus walls it. As it resists water and can get rid of any stat boost with Clear Smog. Ofcourse, I don't need to try the rest of the stupid suggestions you said, because I know they're all going to fail because I can look at the ladder right now and see they all failed which is why stall is dominating the ladder. I don't know why you think you're some super genius whose come up with the magic pokemon to beat stall. There are hundreds of players much better than you, and they can not beat stall because stall can not be beat. And yes it is unbreakable, because smogon purposefully made it unbreakable by banning anything that could beat it.
God I wish Gyarados was in a better speed tier. He's one of my favorite stallbreakers.
>>26453584
If Amoonguss is walling Rain Dance Manaphy, you're not running the Rain Dance Manaphy set.
>+3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Amoonguss: 388-458 (89.8 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
HO dominated the ladder in Gen V. Is this because Smogon refused to ban anything that beat HO?
>>26453584
> "Also personally I've used Rain Dance Manaphy against a stall team, it didn't beat it at all."
hur dur personal experiences prove me right
>No that's just something stallfags said to get it banned so that they could win even easier.
You're talking like Hoopa U making Stall a fucking nightmare to play was the reason it was suspected and banned, which it wasn't.
Btw I'm not the dude you were arguing with, I just got here :^)
>>26453647
Oh no I didn't run that I ran calm mind and rest. Then it gets walled by Chansey. Even at +6 it only does 40%. All I know is everything you're saying has already failed to beat Stall. And if it did beat stall, it would be banned. I read stall dominated near the end of Gen 5. Plus it was a little harder to make HO not dominate (which is how the game is supposed to be played anyway) in Gen 5 since the weathers that never ended gave everyone +50%. What is clear now is that Smogon has purposefully made stall unbeatable and there's no logical reason for it. I could see if Game Freak had made it unbeatable, like they made a ton of great defensive mons and that's just how they wanted the game to be, but it's not there's tons of great offensive mons that should be crushing stall like Salamence and Lucario and Mawile. But while smogon has banned them all, they have not banned a single (not 1) stall mon. despite them dominating.
>>26453209
Mega Gyara is a terrific late game sweeper vs. stall. You need to weaken the opponent's team a bit and have Gyara in safely on something like Mega Sableye, but it strikes fear into their hearts.
In my opinion, the ultimate stallbreaker is Tornadus-T. Stall is forced to run SpDef Talonflame, Zapdos, or something like Vaporeon to be able to keep up with it. Thundurus-I is almost as good, but it's nice to have Torn's speed outside of facing stall so as to outspeed Scarf Tar, and of course Regenerator so the opponent's consistent switching to whittle you gets nullified.
The stallbreaking set on each would be Knock Off + Superpower on both, then Hurricane and Heat Wave on Torn while you go Thunderbolt and Grass Knot on Thund.
Double Dance Lando-T or even Earth Plate Lando-T with something like Gravity can also rip through stall unless they have an HP Ice Tangrowth.
The genies are really underrated in their ability to dismantle stall.
>>26453740
Yes that was the reason it was suspected and banned, ofcourse it wasn't actually a nightmare but it did make it harder. Hell even in the thread stall players were just straight up saying that it made stall hard to play with so they want it banned because they love stall. And I don't use personal experience, if I was just personally losing to stall, but offensive or balanced or a mix of teams were topping the ladder, I'd just say I suck, but since stall is dominating it unopposed, I can say with certainty that it's not just personal experience.
>>26453841
No, the reason it was banned was because it had ZERO counters and no safe switch ins partnered with its diverse movepool.
It decimating stall was just another reason people voted for it.
>>26453958
No, the reason it was banned is because it made games harder for stall players, though not hard enough for one to not be topping the ladder. You can lie to yourself about it though, doesn't change reality.
>>26453983
Name one counter for Hoopa-U
>>26453983
>"You can lie to yourself about it though, doesn't change reality."
You're the only one lying to yourself, Anon.
>>26453983
>It was banned because it threatened Stall
No, there's a lot of Pokemon that threaten Stall right now.
>No, you're wrong, it was banned because it threatened Stall
No, it was banned because it shit on everything else and forced you to guess.
>No, it was banned because it threatened Stall, you're lying to yourself
Can you see how fucking stupid you sound my dude?
>>26453999
Careful, zero counters does not equal banworthy. Kyurem-Black has zero counters, but it is not broken like Hoopa-U was.
>>26453999
I don't know all these retarded smogon phrases. All I know was, I never had a problem with him, he was not overpowered because he was not on the team of any of the top players, he was not over centralizing at all, and he did not make stall unplayable because the top OU player was a stall player. Taking this all into account, he did not deserve to be banned. Also taking into account everyone's comments on why they banned him (stall related) and the fact that when he was banned, Quagsire and Amoonguss rose to OU, I can say for sure the only people who were helped out wish his ban were stall players, and the only reason he was banned was stall players.
>>26453209
>You'd think with how much Stall is "dominating the meta
All the salty fucks that banned mega mawlie,aegislash and Lucario are to thank for this
Even Pincer was once suspect for a ban. PINCER for christ sakes. Smogon is a cancer to the community these days. I appreciate that the helped from a scene e before Nintendo even cared about it but they're far from what they used to be.
>>26454051
Shut up retard stallfag, everyone knows why it was banned, and you can even read the comments on why. Again lying will not change reality. Not gonna debate what's obvious. Also, no no pokemon threatens stall right now very clearly seen by it's domination.
>>26453774
>Calm mind Manaphy
You should always use tail glow.
>>26454060
>"I don't know all these retarded smogon phrases."
>"All I know was, I never had a problem with him,"
You sound like a fucking casual Jesus Christ.
>>26454069
I miss those days.
I would run specially defensive arcanine with intimidate and it was a good counter. Wisp on the obvious kings shield and watch it burn.
>>26454105
No I was high on the ladder, before I stopped playing when I realized I had no chance without playing with stall. Also nice taking sentences out of context and ignoring everything else.
>>26454069
I hope you realize that even the FORMER CHAMPION OF VGC acknowledges that the ban for Mega Lucario was completely justified. Someone who has ZERO CONNECTION to Smogon yet isn't a complete fucking retard and understands that things are objectively broken in Singles.
Don't believe me? https://youtu.be/tiGpq05tGss?t=267
I'd recommend listening to the whole video, though I think thirty minutes might be too short for your attention span.
Anyone who thinks that the presence of Mega Lucario was justified in OU was justified can safely have their opinion discarded.
Aegislash was tested TWICE, by the way. Second time was nearly unanimous to keep it in OU.
>>26454098
Again your argument is "It's banned because it threatened Stall".
>>26454105
>pokemon elitist
you must get all the girls
>>26454142
Meant to say the vote was near-unanimous to keep Aegislash in Ubers.
>>26454142
No my factual statement was it was banned because it threatened stall. Not an argument.
>>26454164
And you have multiple posts ITT telling you that Hoopa-U shit on every other playstyle as well, AND that Hoopa-U doesn't threaten Stall it absolutely makes it unplayable, AND that this is the first time Stall hsa been even remotely good since gen II, AND that people were saying the exact same thing about Hyper Offense in gen V.
It doesn't matter if you hate Stall, it deserves to be as strong as any other playstyle.
>>26454136
>>"I don't know all these retarded smogon phrases."
How was that taken out of context. It was a legitimate sentence. It makes you sound like a casual.
>>26454149
I'm not an elitist tho
Balanced teams are the best
>>26454195
>Hoopa-U shit on every other playstyle as well
Debunked. None of the top OU players were using him.
>Hoopa-U doesn't threaten Stall it absolutely makes it unplayable
Debunked. The top OU player was a stall player when he was around.
>AND that this is the first time Stall hsa been even remotely good since gen II
Debunked. Everyone complains about Skarmbliss stall in Gen 4. Not that the past matters anway.
>It doesn't matter if you hate Stall, it deserves to be as strong as any other playstyle.
Actually it doesn't, the game that gamefreak made favors offense. Smogon has completely changed the way the game is supposed to be played with their retarded preferential bans. Not only that, but stall is not equal with every thing else, it's a million times more powerful and dominates the ladder.
Anymore questions retarded stallfag?
>>26454234
This.
I usually have 1/2 utility mons that can also sometimes function as late game finishers if needed.
A physical wall and special wall with good attack coverage and utility moves.
A physical sweeper and a special sweeper (neither require boosting)
>>26454220
What does casual and knowing retarded smogon phrases have to do with anything? You think smogon is like the god of pokemon or something retard? Anyway despite me playing on showdown for a long time, I don't know or care about what phrases they come up with I care about the game itself. And everything else I said was the actual point of my post, not that.
>>26454281
>What does the inability to differentiate between a check and counter have to do with knowing and understanding how Smogon works?
Oh, lord.
>>26454321
What the fuck? I don't care about knowing how smogon works. Did I say I did? I don't know the definition of a check or a counter at all, let alone how to differentiate. I'm a pokemon fan not a smogon fan.
>>26454321
Cmon anon don't be stupid.
You can be good at the game without knowing little things like that. It's not like you have to discuss it with others to play.
>>26454344
If you do not understand how Smogon and their Singles metagame works, what gives you the right to determine whether or not Hoopa-U is broken?
>>26454350
It's not the matter of the little things, it's understanding a vital part of the Singles format.
>>26454393
You don't need to know definitions to play. You can have checks and counters and use them effectively without knowing what the words mean.
Don't try to argue otherwise because it's fact
It's so easy to bait on /vp/ geez
>>26454393
Because I have common sense. And can see when something is broken or not. By looking at the top players and what is the most effective, seeing if something is overcentralizing or not. Hoopa U ticked none of those boxes, and therefore was not ban worthy. Doesn't matter what stupid phrases smogon comes up with, what matters is what is actually happening in the games. And in the game, he was not overpowered or deserving to be banned.
>>26454350
The difference between a check and a counter is something that has been agreed upon by the competitive singles pokemon community at large and not just smogon.
There's no way you're even remotely decent at singles if you're not aware of what these things are. You don't even have to know the exact term, but you should know that there exists a difference.
>>26453251
Taunt Mega gyara is a set too
>>26454450
>I have nothing but tertiary experience in something. That clearly makes me more knowledgeable at this subject than a large amount of people who have dedicated large amounts of their time to something
>>26453209
Not to mention Taunt which is also great for it.
>>26454060
Casualfag spotted
>>26454454
Nope I have no idea what those things are and don't care and no you don't have to know what they are to be good at singles. I was in the high 1700s before I stopped playing because I realized I could never compete without stall and never knew what they were. Do you really think someone needs to read some smogon articles and learn some stupid words to know how to click "switch" and "flamethrower". I would hope you were smart enough to do that before you read smogon's forum.
>>26454454
No one said they can't differentiate between the two. The fact is, he can perfectly be good at the game without knowing the terminology.
On topic: I use Crobat as a fast taunter and it can deal with stall teams pretty well once I juggle them around a bit. Brave bird does some hefty damage to just about anything. Even 2hkos most mega sableye variants. Roost and defog are good to have. And poison typing is fantastic.
>>26454469
Except the vote to ban Hoopa U, is not decided by "whose more knowledgable because of experience" it's voted on by the people who win the most (aka stall players) so I have no idea what you're bringing up experience for.
>>26454501
You can be good at the game, but it's impossible for someone to actually have a discussion about the metagame without those terms. Full stop.
>>26454533
OK sure. I never argued that though.
>>26454533
Wrong retard you don't need those terms at all. Just use your common sense and not be a stallfag trying to defend bullshit.
>>26454520
No, it's voted on by the people who win enough to be not be functionally retarded. It's extremely easy to be high easy to vote with a memeteam if you aren't a mental pygmy.
Being high enough to vote =/= than topping the ladders.
I've seen fucking ash roleplayers get to voting rank before. You're trying to imply that only the top 5 people in rankings actually get to vote.
>>26454557
You do actually, because how pokemon interact with each other is extremely important.
>this pokemon can revenge kill, but it can't switch into a hit
>this pokemon can switch into a hit and threaten a switchout or kill
>this pokemon can't kill this pokemon in a million years
Whether a pokemon checks or counters another pokemon is one of the most fundamental parts of the game.
>>26454574
The stall dominance goes all throughout the ladder obviously. The best stall players ofcourse topping the ladder and beating the best of everyone else, and the bad stall players, beating the bad non-stall players. And it's the people who win who get to vote (aka stall players). So yea more stall players get to vote than non-stall players. Which is the only reason it got banned. And ofcourse you can read their reasons in the forum, some just straight saying because of stall.
>>26454602
Well you don't exactly need the terminology. You can get your point across with common jargon and sense.
>>26454602
You know anywhere you use a smogon word, the word could just be replaced with something else / the sentence said in a different way so that someone who doesn't know the smogon terms can understand? Unless you're a moron, I'm thinking anyone should be able to explain anything about the game to anyone who does not know smogon phrases. Not that any of this matters.
>>26454627
Shit like Garchomp managed to get banned despite being on most teams in gen 4. You have faulty logic. People have and will vote against pokemon even if they personally use the strat.
>>26454629
Check and counter are just ways to say those things without typing them out every time, just like any terminology. There's no point in using common phrases because "check" and "counter" already mean those things
>>26454657
A conversation shouldn't be slowed down to write an entire sentence to explain an interaction rather than just using a single word every single time. Especially when these words have been agreed upon by the community at large. If you don't know these terms, you shouldn't be here talking because you clearly do not know enough.
You shouldn't be talking about competitive singles without knowing these words.
It's like jumping into a theoretical physics class in the middle of the semester and expecting them to define every single piece of physicist jargon every time they use it.
>>26454673
Well ofcourse, anything that gets banned (except Hoopa U anyway and probably other things that beat stall, since they're weren't overpowered) is gonna be used by most people since it's overpowered. But clearly stall players are very different because they've never banned anything they use.
>>26454725
What stall pokemon should be banned?
>>26454710
>It's like jumping into a theoretical physics class
Holy hell how can you be so pretentious about a little kids game. You must be an idiot to compare them and think that pokemon is something deep. And the worst part is, you're using smogon made terms, not even from the actual pokemon company. As if smogon matters when it doesn't. Also I'm not expecting you to define what you mean every time, if I cared what the terms meant I would have just looked them up. But I don't care because they're irrelevant, they're just buzzwords you're using to defend obvious retarded smogon shit that anyone with common sense can see is retarded.
>>26454740
Mega sableye and eviolite chansey ;)
>>26454740
Mega Sableye and Chansey. That would fix everything. Its crazy how the best offensive mons are banned while the best defensive mons remain. Anyone can see it's bias.
>>26454772
It's just a comparison, dumbass. You can switch the comparison to whatever the fuck you want. Every single hobby and field has their own jargon used to facilitate conversation and every field would call you a fucking dumbass for intruding and expecting them to cater to your lack of knowledge and unwillingness to learn.
>they're just buzzwords
You're clearly from /v/ because you have no clue what buzzword means.
>>26454789
>>26454778
Mega Sableye definitely deserves a suspect test, but Chansey is one of the pokemon that's most easily outmaneuverable and predictable in the game. It's strong, but you know exactly how to deal with it and it has a necessary existence.
Physical attackers have to deal with burn. chansey is the cross that special attackers have to bear.
>>26454845
Chaney is way too heavy of a cross because it affects physical attackers too. Completely invalidates a ton of hitters that don't rely on boosts, isnt bothered by status, and can force teams to run knock off.
If you don't think there's something wrong with that because knock off is a common move already, then you are biased towards stall.
>>26454814
Its a retarded comparison. Also, no I'm not from /v/ and I know what buzzwords mean. And yea those are just buzzwords. Look it doesn't matter what the words mean and I don't care and don't know why you're obsessed with other people knowing it. Did I ever say anything that attacked whatever the phrases mean and whatever point you trying to make? No. So there's no reason to be using them. Now respond to actual things I've said instead of typing in your smogon buzzwords.
>>26454845
Chansey walls physical attackers too unless they're fighting type. No they don't deserve a suspect test, a suspect test would just leave them there because stall players would vote to keep them. They deserve to be banned.
>>26454890
>Smogon bans things without testing first
>Shitters point this out as "kneejerk bans" and one of the major flaws of Smogon
>Smogon bans things with a test first
>Shitters view this as some sort of conspiracy and demand Smogon to waive the suspect test
>>26454906
All you're admitting is they have flaws with the way they do things.
>>26454906
>you can only vote on a ban if you get to a high ranking
>the bans are all counter-stall
>essentially its a group of autists who like to play pokemon for 160 turns at a time getting together and circlejerking for several days about it
>you
>defending this
>>26453785
EVs for Thundurus?
>>26454906
They've dug their own grave by making stall so overpowered, now nothing stall related will ever be banned because stall players will keep winning and get the votes to make sure they stay on top. The only way to remedy this situation is ban Chansey and Sableye without test. Forever taking away stall players power.
>>26454937
>actually wanting to ban Chansey, when its line has existed to keep Special Attackers in check since gen 1
>>26454969
Yes that's what blissey is for.
Chansey is just going way too far
Not like special attackers had it that great in the first place
>>26454969
Blissey can stay if you really need an amazing special wall. Chansey also wall physical attacks assuming they're not fighting type.
