Knock Off and Scald need to be depowered so much it's not even funny.
Scald has is 80 BP. With a 30% chance to burn.
And as we all know, it burns more often than not
A burn can absolutely render a pokemon useless, and 30% is way too high.
I would suggest a 75 BP Scald, with 20% to burn.
Similarly, Knock Off is extremely overpowered.
Essentially 97.5 BP, and it knocks off the opponents item, which are always vital to that pokemon.
Knock Off should be 50 BP, mantaining the 1.5 boost if the opponent is carrying an item.
What other moves need to be castrated?
80 to 75 BP isn't much of a nerf at all. Scald should be 60 to bring it in line with Spark.
>>26412548
Knock Off shouldn't exist because of Embargo.
>>26412548
>With a 30% chance to burn.
>it burns more often than not
I mean I'm not defending Scald, it's a stupid strong move and I hate it to, but come on anon
>>26412579
Embargo should be a lasting effect, blocking the entire enemy team temporarily.
Knock Off is for blocking one permanently.
Reduce Scald's burn chance to 10%, like most Burn moves.
>>26412572
Spark is actually 65 BP, but I agree.
I actually think a 65 BP Scald would be ideal.
>>26412593
Yeah when I wrote that I felt stupid, but you have to agree in competitive play, it really feels as though it burns more often than 30%.
I would easily say it has burned me at least 50% of the time overall.
>>26412607
But Scald is unique in that it is a Water move, and the act of scalding is most closely attributed to burns than any other Fire or Burn move in the game.
I think it should have an increased chance of burning, but not 30%.
20% would be fair
>>26412638
10% is good enough to get the point across. You can even keep the BP the same.
>>26412579
I don't understand, why can't they both exist together?
They're different moves with different effects.
Embargo simply prevents targets from using items for 5 turns, whereas Knock Off deals alot of damage AND prevents the target from using their item PERMANENTLY.
It's broken
>>26412596
>>26412665
Embargo is pointless because of that, it deals no damage and isn't permanent like Knock Off.
>>26412579
I agree.
Embargo is quite literally a shittier version of Knock Off with no other redeeming quality.
You can't even call it a "primary" move like Ember or Water Gun, because it doesn't deal any damage and alot of mons learn it quite late on, level-wise.
They should completely nerf Knock Off in next gen, it's a joke as it is now.
>>26412548
Aside from muh eviolite can someone remind me why Knock Off is bad ?
>>26412848
Deals alot of damage and permanently removes an item for the target.
We already have an item prevention move, and that's Embargo.
Not to mention that for dark types, Knock Off is boosted even more with STAB
>>26412572
>bring it in line with Spark
It's a Discharge copy. If anything they should make a physical fire move that's a Spark copy and give it good coverage
I like that they exist, but it should have been same-type exclusive and never a TM
Just make Knock Off 20 power again unless a dark type uses it. Dark types keep the boost that they quite frankly need and it's no longer a powerful coverage move that can be learned by too many things.
>>26412548
>Scald will scald a Frozen user
>Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Fire Punch, Fire Fang, Flim-Flame, Inferno, Fiery Dance and Overheat do not
DEFEND THIS
>>26413232
>Scald will scald a Frozen user
wut
>>26413239
He meant thaw.
>>26413239
change that second instance of the word scald to thaw
i hate scald so much that it broke me
>>26413246
Git gud sub 1500 shitter
>>26413274
>get past 1500 rating
>Tail Glow Manaphy, Quagsire and CM Keldeo everywhere
congrats on being unable to make a point
Scald is so dumb because the only thing immune to brn are fire types who are weak to water. They should make Water and Ice types immune to burn. That way water mons can go back to walling each other, and Ice types can go one step in a direction that makes them able to play defensive roles.
>>26413356
>buffing water
anon no. Even before Scald it was an amazing type.
>>26413356
they should make ice resist fire while they're at it you fucking retard
>>26412548
>50 BP
>wanting Scizor to be even better
>>26413356
Then Water Veil will be pointless, they should just reduce the power of Scald to make Surf a better option again.
>>26412680
Make Embargo nullify held items used on opponent team for rest of game.
>>26413141
Burn is inconvenient to more Pokémon, and the only type that is immune to it is hit super effectively by Scald anyways.
>>26413410
I'm glad you're not a game designer at Game Freak
>>26413397
Water Veil is already pointless
>>26413459
Well it beats Knock Off though?
>>26413463
Water Veil probably has the second or third worst distribution of any ability in the game. It's not pointless.
>>26413463
Being immune to burn on physical attackers is pointless?
Embargo prevents any and all Pokemon on the opposing team frommega-evolvingfor 5 turns.
>>26413397
There is precedent for making an Ability useless with Stunfisk's Limber.
>>26413274
>>26413288
why do you guys never specify a tier?
sub 1500 is literally top 100 in RU.
I'm assuming you mean OU though.
>>26413614
OU is called "standard" for a reason, if it's not specified default to that.
>>26413388
nice meme bro
Few pokemon have the ability technician dude, this is a general point about Knock Off
>>26413430
Paralysis is inconvenient for physical attackers, special attackers and walls. Fuck off.
Still, why the fuck does a water type move burn?
It has a much better distribution than Lava Plume too. Fuck GF and their boner for Water types.
>>26412596
>Embargo should be a lasting effect, blocking the entire enemy team temporarily.
That's exactly what Magic Room does.
>>26413397
They can just change Water Veil. It isn't the only ability to become worthless after later gen changes.
>>26413368
That's not a big water buff. Since now Water types are walled by water types without toxic again. You actually have to devote a move to beating other water types or be forced to switch out.
>>26413496
the only physical attackers that get it are stoutland, floatzel and seaking,
stoutland's only purpose is smashpassing and even then you're better off just using their other ability: swift swim. And even then none of them are a good as kabutops
>>26413650
>stoutland
>>26413660
>newfags
>>26413660
>pretending not to know what stoutland is
>>26413650
And Seaking is better with lightningrod. It only benefits a shitmon like floatzel
>>26413680
>>26413683
>>26413700
Is that Volcanion?
>>26413731
It's Seaking with Water Veil
>>26412548
>a water move has a higher burn chance than most fire moves
GAMEFREAKS WATER FETISH HAS GONE TO FAR
>>26413886
Their water fetish went too far in Hoenn.
>>26413886
Probably because water transfers heat through direct contact instead of radiation like fire?
>>26413949
go to bed masuda
>>26412638
>Flamethrower
>10% burn
>Scald
>30% burn
Honestly I associate Flamethrowers more with burns than hot water.
>>26413141
The fundamental difference is that the opponents who can take Discharge damage can also take its side-effect; Ground and Electric have nothing to fear about it.
Scald is different in that whatever tanks 80BP Water well can't take a burn, and what can tank a burn can't endure water damage. Only Fire/Grass, Fire/Dragon and Fire/Water takes it very well, and those typings means exactly 3 Pokémon, two are legendary and one's a Mega.
It's akin to, say, a 80BP rock attack with 30% freeze chance. It's fundamentally unfair.
>>26413970
>>26413886
This
>>26412638
You are retarded
>>26414032
This
Take the burn off it and make it into a water attack-dropping Moonblast
>>26412548
>Scald has the same chance to burn as Focus blast has to miss
>Statistically has to be used ~18 times to burn a whole team
>Same base damage as dragon pulse
>Mediocre offensive typing
>Three abilities that render the Pokémon immune to it
>People still complain
>>26414618
>Scald has the same damage as Dragon Pulse
Yes, that is bad.
Was this meant to be a point defending Scald as not over powered?
Scald should be nowhere near Dragon Pulse in terms of BP. Should be 65 BP/70 BP
>>26414618
Have you seen the amount of Focus Blast misses?
They miss like clockwork.
Your points really aren't helping your agenda, in fact they're refuting it.
>>26413232
desu any Fire move should be able to thaw a frozen mon, and Rock smash should be able to thaw as well.
>>26414774
Body slam is a higher base power physical Scald that paralyzes, a far more potent status
Lava plume is a Fire type Scald clone.
The majority of fire type moves can cause burns at least a third as much as Scald
>>26414618
>Scald has the same chance to burn as Focus Miss has to miss
I mean really anon, thats not a good argument against it burning too often.
>>26414876
>>26414790
Sorry, fucked up my phrasing
3/10 times is not even half though
>>26414858
>paralyze is worse than burn
not by a long shot.
>>26414858
Scald is a TM and has a larger distribution than Lava Plume though
>>26414901
Burn
>cuts one stat in half and does fixed damage every turn
>Only physical attackers care about the boost
>two abilities give boosts to other stats when burned
>Magic guard removes hp cut
Paralysis
>Drops Speed stat all the way to -6
>Sweepers, tanks, even walls worry about the status
>25% to do nothing
>Guts grants atk boost, but doesn't negate stat drop
>Magic guard has no effect on it
>Body slam + scrappy can paralyze ghosts and has the distro of Scald
>>26414926
Thunder wave is too
Guaranteed status, vast learn pool
>>26414926
Not to mention that every Fire type can tank both the typing of Lava Plume and negate its effect. Nothing can tank both the effect and type of Scald, except some esoteric, extremely rare dual-types.
>>26415028
well since i run physical attackers with priority moves, yeah i care about burns more.
and stall would care more too, not as much as toxic of course, but still more that para
>>26412548
Agreed that Scald should be 75 BP with 20% burn chance.
Knock Off is fine the way it is.
Dark Void is in dire need of Castration. Make it only hit one opponent in Doubles, but raise its accuracy up to 90%.
Magma Storm should be castrated because Fuck Heatran. Now it checks for accuracy on subsequent trapping hits, so it only has a 75% chance to do the residual damage and trap. Same goes for Thousand waves, fucking Zygarde Perfect belongs in AG with Mega Fug.
U-Turn and Volt Switch down to 5PP each. Now need to spam them as much has people do and you can hose it with Pressure.
Solar Flare also deserves nerfing, make it only drop the Accuracy one level and make it drop it 30% of the time, 50% to lose 2 levels of Acc is unforgivable. Ronove makes my fucking blood boil.
>>26415028
Quick feet negates the speed drop by Paralysis on top of the speed boost, and I believe Paralysis only drops speed to -4.
That doesn't make much difference, mind.
>>26415034
Gastrodon
>>26415060
As a high ranking stall player, I care about and see parahax far more from counterstall than burns in OU
>well since i run physical attackers with priority moves, yeah i care about burns more.
This argument is as weak as if someone ran full bug/flying types and wanted to ban/nerf stealth rocks and Talonflame
>>26415102
everybody does want to ban or nerf them though
>>26414618
>mediocre offensive typing
You have no idea what you're talking about. If water was mediocre, it wouldn't be as annoying as it is, but water is a good offensive type and a great defensive type.
>>26415102
>Gastrodon
Doesn't resist it.
>>26415102
>Scald users are always bulky water mons
>the only thing that beats Scald is Water Absorb/Storm Drain/Dry Skin
>...which is nearly exclusive to bulky water mons
Epic, my friend. Truly, fighting cancer with cancer makes perfect sense.
>>26415087
wait, dark void hits BOTH opponents in doubles?
no way, i don't believe it
>>26415225
Hits everything. Great for putting an entire horde to sleep.
>>26415087
5pp is way too low for Volt and Turn, they deserve at least 10. I'd give them 16, as most other moves.
>>26415238
jesus christ, that is way too overpowered.
why do I not see dark void being spammed constantly in doubles?
I rarely see it, considering how OP it sounds.
>>26415270
Only Smeargle and Darkrai can use it. The former dies to a light breeze and the latter is banned in virtually all formats.
>>26414618
The problem with Scald is that it has a pretty high base power, good accuracy, amazing distribution, good typing, and high burn chance. To make it worse, water is already a hard type to deal with before handing them Scald.
LEAVE SCALD SENPAI ALONE!
I got banned for posting why scald is bs? Didn't use a nsfw image. Odd. Anyway, the worst part about scald is that the type that can't be burned can't switch into a water attack. Plus it burns better than fire attacks except for WoW. BP and burn chance need to be nerfed.
>>26416037
yup, it's 100% retarded.
when faced with scald you literally have to choose between being burned or switching in a fire poke and getting rekt.
>>26416037
Sacred Fire and Inferno. But your point stands.
>>26416153
It's the sole reason I put Heliolisk on my UU team.
>>26416770
Is Heliolisk viable in UU?
He looks really fragile,and his spA doesnt make up for it that much
>>26416818
He served his purpose, namely blocking scald. Bulky waters were hard for my team so it helped a lot.
That was before ORAS though, so I don't know what UU is like now.
>>26415177
>storm drain
>>26415177
>this man is on a pokemon board and doesn't know about Storm Drain
>>26412548
Why is he leaky?
>>26417027
Maybe his butt hurts.
>>26412572
>implying there is even one person who uses spark in competitive play
Literally everybody complaining in this thread is a whiny little bitch.
I mean yeah, scald is shitty, so's knock off and stealth cocks and t-wave and all that, but they're a part of the metagame and they're here to stay. It's best to just respect the game and play with and around what is presented to you.
You could say:
>GUUUUU but smogon changes what they feel like, they even got rid of sleep
And yeah, I'll agree with you, but smogon are at least smart enough not to outlaw these moves and statuses, because they know they're an important part of the meta and the pros know how to play around it.
So basically, all of you shut your autism-holes and deal with it. Nerfs and buff be damned, just learn to play the game. Fuck.
>>26417442
>I think that X move should be nerfed, since moves are often changed between gens, and in fact one of the moves most complained about is so reviled because of a crossgen buff
>OH MY GOD STOP BITCHING LOL JUST GIT GUD LMAO NOTHING IS GONNA CHANGE XD
Okay. Shall we instead talk about the anime? Since apparently you don't want the games discussed.
>>26417559
I never said it's not gonna change, but at this point, with the gen 7 games basically finished, bitching and moaning isnt gonna do much.
>>26417647
No one is bitching and moaning, you cockpuppet. We're discussing what moves may or may not be deserving of a change between these generations. Of course it won't have any effect on the games. NOTHING that is said in here has any effect. Why does that mean we shouldn't discuss our opinions on the games' balance?
>>26412548
>Scald
70 BP
10 - 20% chance to burn.
>Knock Off
80 BP after boost, not counting STAB
>Stealth Rock
STOP TAKING 50% OF HEALTH FOR EVERY DUAL WEAK MON.
THAT'S NOT EVEN A "HAZARD" AT THAT POINT. IT'S A FUCKING CRIPPLE.
25% IS MORE THAN ENOUGH DAMAGE FOR A DUAL WEAK MON, IF WE /MUST/ COUNT WEAKNESSES. OTHERWISE, 12.5% IS JUST FINE.
>>26417855
I just think it should be a standard 12.5 across the board, with its gimmick being that it hits Flymons. Typed hazards are retarded. Toxic Spikes at least makes sense.
>>26417888
That's what it should have been, but they'll never do that now that some Pokémon are balanced around it.
>>26412548
60-40 and keep the 30%
>>26417855
I agree, Stealth Rock taking 50% of health from a Talonflame is pure retarded.
Think about it, 50% because of some rocks.
Has to be nerfed.
I agree, 25% for dual weak mons is more than enough.
>>26414032
"go toxicroak"
wow
>>26412548
>lets tweak the symptoms of a fundamentally broken system rather than go completely overboard.
You aren't a real autist. Move aside.
First, RNG in a turn based game is cancer. It's fine on a few select things such as metronome or acupressure, things like that, but in general consistency is to be valued over chance. Especially when it comes to missing a turn (missing, parhax etc), which can't often be played around unlike say a stray crit or a low damage roll.
To start, you remove RNG elements from the miss a turn mechanics. All RNG for these is directly applied instead. Thus, accuracy is now the % of damage it does. 80% accuracy does 80% of the damage, and so on. Paralysis, confusion and infatuation would reduce damage by the chance they used to have to fuck you over. An easy implementation is to have them now drop accuracy. 25% for par, 50% for confusion and infatuation. In addition, confusion would hurt the victim on every turn before the attack happens, but at half the power it is currently.
Second you look at secondary effects. These should be applied directly as well. Thus, all status is now represented on a 0-100 scale. Scald deals 30 burn, which acts like 30% of a burn. Secondaries would also be effected by accuracy, Zap cannon with no modifiers inflicts paralysis roughly 50% of the time, therefore it inflicts 50% of a full paralysis applied. This extends to boosting, where +1 is now +100.
Third you slash all multipliers in the game by half. Super effective damage is now a x1.5 modifier and not x2, STAB is now x1.25, boosting is x1.25 no more sweeping with a single boost. This goes for abilities also, but not status (burn is still half etc).
Fourth all self targeting moves (recovery, heal bell, setup) have reduced pp. Stall can fuck off and being able to setup every time you switch in with no worries is dumb. Recovery moves should have no more than 8pp, setup no more than 24 with powerful ones being 8. Throw knock off into here with 8pp.
>>26416818
Yes, Specs Heliolisk on a Volt-Turn core with Mega Beedrill is awesome and annoying.
>>26421285
The last spot in my team was a toss up between Mega Aero and Mega Beedrill.
I went with Mega Aero because he's the fastest mon in UU, is much less fragile than M Beedrill, and only has a marginally worse attack stat.
>>26413886
GAMEFREAKS WATER FETISH HASN'T GONE TO FAR ENOUGH!
Sleep needs to be depowered. Suggestion: being hit by an attack wakes you up immediately if you're asleep.
When frozen, you take 3/4 damage from attacks and you have a chance to thaw if hit with a physical move.
Spikes/Toxic spikes disappear once a Pokemon lands on them. They get stuck in the Pokemon and now that's it. Same with sticky web.
I'm trying to think of a nerf for stealth rock. Perhaps having it last only 5 turns max or something.
>>26421892
I'd also like to add: ice should be super effective against bug and rock type. It should resist the fairy type, since it currently only resists itself.
>>26412548
>30 percent chance
>we all know it burns more
Stupid fucking kid.
>>26421892
>Sleep needs to be depowered. Suggestion: being hit by an attack wakes you up immediately if you're asleep.
ah yes the "rest on every pokemon" suggestion
>>26421908
>nerfing Bug EVEN FUCKING MORE
You actually work at GF, don't you?
>>26413410
do you even listen to yourself buddy?
>>26421922
you're hurting my feelings
