>I know, I'll arrange all pokemon into tiers everything, so that everything will be fair
>Oh, well that pokemon's too powerful, so I'll just send it up a higher tier
>They're complaining about the tiers again, I know! I'll make tiers between tiers so that everything will be fair
>But I don't like the fact that people will just sleep spam, so I'll just make a rule against it!
>And I'll just keep adding rules to get rid of everything that I think is unfair!
Yes, you described how the "competitive" scene works.
Where's the punchline?
To be fair, sleep spam had precedence for existing because it also existed officially in Pokemon Stadium.
In fact, if it didn't have that precedence, Smogon probably would've elected to simply ban the sleep status instead.
>>26364628
>I
>I
>I
>I
>I
Who is this Smogon and who made him the king?
>>26364628
Fucking smogonfags are the reason I can't battle people with my bro mega rayquaza. Just make a team of your favorites and don't worry about what other people do, god.
>>26364698
It is I, John Smogon, who makes the rules
>RNG
>competitive
pick one
>>26364720
It doesn't matter if Mega Fug is your "bro", he's blatantly overpowered.
Smogon exists to let people use mons other than Rayquaza/Mewtwo/Lugia/Arceus etc.
>>26364910
>Smogon exists to let people use mons other than Rayquaza/Mewtwo/Lugia/Arceus etc.
yet people still end up with the same teams
>>26364925
Stop playing only OU then, retard.
>>26364925
They actually don't. Actually play Showdown. Or better yet, don't, and keep whining about pointless shit.
>>26364628
>implying tiers don't make sense
>implying sleep spam is skill
>implying you aren't a bike riding autist
nigga please
>Complaining about Smogon
Look you don't have to play it if you don't wanna.
It just makes the game fun and fairer
>>26364628
Sleep and Evasion clauses are good things though. It takes no skill to spam Dark Void and Evasion makes everything significantly more luck based. Tiers I don't agree with and I don't agree with the Baton Pass limit and Swagger bans.
>>26365023
Check out the last few years of VGC
>>26364925
Not my team.
I get to use half my bros on one team.
Smogon haters are underaged retards.
The big problem is everyone is always falls upon a slippery slope syndrome when trying to discuss anything related to smogon stuff. I think smogon is a good learning tool for beginners who want to learn how to use pokemon effectivly in the 6 vs 6 singles format. As you get better and understand how everything works more, you can use lower tier mons or stranger battle tactics.
Chance is always argued about as well, especially when it comes to the Evasion clause, but I like to think of the core gameplay of pokemon as a meal, and the addition or subtraction of chance as salt. If you took out all chance out of the game (paralysis, sleep, confusion etc) it would be like adding no salt, just bland matches. The same thing would happen over and over with no real suprises.
If you let evasion run wild however its like taking the cap off you salt shaker and pouring it all over your food. Everything goes to shit and the game becomes less about actually battling eachother and seeing who can get to full evasion first and get lucky enough to hit their opponent.
You need a balance of both, a little hint of chance and risk here and there. Something that might pop outta no where and force you to change your strategy up to keep battles as a set of mind games with a hint of gambling on the side.
I dont agree with every choice smogon makes, but I feel its a pretty good set of rules for the unbalanced mess GF puts out.
>>26365052
>Swagger
>Not luck based
If Evasion is banned than that shit should be too.
>>26364720
Is this suppose to be bait or a joke?
>>26364628
Yeah that's how smogon works, glad you explained it for us. Also, like anon above mentioned, who is this "I" you speak of? You do realize that everyone playing smogon right now(aka the entire community) chose to play and has say in what gets banned or what stays in tiers? Seriously, it's 2016 and there's still people that unironically complain about smogon when their 3ds is right there to turn on and play Battle spot/wifi battles on their own, while serious smogon players are on showdown. I don't get it.
>>26364628
Verlis plz
What is PU? Seems they add a new tier every gen.
>>26366717
PU is the lowest official tier
These are for the mons that are not viable anywhere, not even in NU. Then we have the unoffical FU which is the worst of the worst of the worst.
>>26366664
>serious smogon players
I chuckled.
>I'm a smogon defender, I say tiers are there so your bro won't be rekt by Talonflame but I let people laugh at you for having a bro that gets rekt by muh precious fire eagle
>>26364628
>It's all falling apart, I'll just make more tiers!
>It's still all falling apart, I'll just make tiers between tiers!!!
Maybe you're just playing the game wrong...
Just play doubles, faggots
I play with the pokemon I like most, don't care about tiers.
Still,
I use Smogon to have an overview of my pokemon and to get some ideas about how develop them.
I don't think I'll ever be on competitive but if I have to waste time building up every singular fucker in my team I want to do it properly.
>>26364628
ITT: people who never understood EVs or IVs. Or never won an online battle without 2-3 legendaries on their team.
Fucking scrubs
>>26366066
>what is switching
>what is lum berry
>what is safeguard
>what is taunt
Unlike sleep and evasion it's not that hard to deal with
>but muh foul play
Switch to a defensive Pokémon
Doubles are objectively superior to Singles in every aspect.
>>26369388
yeah fuck legendaries
>be me
>playing AS minding my own business
>FAGGOT wants to battle!
>ok, why not
>I'm not in online battles so I accept rules (legendaries allowed)
>triple battle
>FAGGOT throws out 3 legendaries
>my team is just storyline team, nothing special
>assrapes me
>log out
>refuse online battles from then
Other battle formats exist.
Smogon isn't the authority on battling.
Showdown isn't the only way to battle either.
>>26364628
Smogonfags need to kill themselves already.
>>26364628
>muh VGC is better
everytime
>>26364628
The only bullshit move Smogon ever made was the swift swim clause back in gen 5.
>gen is all about weather now, basically
>decide to ban the use of swift swim with drizzle in OU because it's totally OP guys
>act surprised when sandstorm fucking dominates with two ridiculously good weather setters and Excadrill taking full advantage of Sand Rush
>shit guys, maybe we were too hasty in banning Swift Swim with Drizzle
>nah, let's just ban Excadrill instead
Don't people understand Smogon tiers? I mean, they've done pretty dubious shit lately, but otherwise the tiers system is okay.
>wah my bro is NU
Good news! This means you can use your bro in NU, UU, OU, ubers, and anything goes! NU only means your bro isn't used much and that's not Smogon's fault, it's the player's and possibly the Pokémon for sucking. Tiers are popularity rankings and you can use pokemon in its tier and superior tiers.
>>26369423
Git gud, in-game teams always suck. They're unfit for battling others.
>>26366888
Ok. Whatever that's suppose to mean
>>26369463
>implying anyone actually sees the tiers as usage based
The only reason people aren't using these Pokémon is because they're worse than OU/UU Pokémon. That's why things like Heliolisk and Slurpuff who got good moves added in ORAS saw more use. Plus there's the whole Smogon elitist thing.
>>26369527
No, the reason OU pokemon are OU is because they're better than the other 75% of pokemon, that's why they're OVERUSED.
>>26369527
That's what I'm trying to debunk. Tiers *are* popularity rankings that have a level of correlation to the pokemon being good or not.
The only exception are banlists that are there to avoid tiers from getting overcentralized (...or they try).
>>26369543
No, OU pokemon are OU because they're very used, period. Why? Because these pokemon excel at their roles, but that's incidental - sometimes shitty mons can slip here because of gimmicky sets or whatnot.
>>26365036
You talking shit about bicycles, nigger?
>>26369462
Kek
>>26367408
>but I let people laugh at you for having a bro that gets rekt by muh precious fire eagle
>Strawman
>>26369680
>Strawman
>>26369543
Everybody uses Garchomp and Landorus because they're good. Nobody is using Ledian and Minun because they're awful. How often the Pokémon is used does have to do with how good it is.
>>26369767
I did say there's a level of correlation, but it's not a 100%. For instance, after 2014 VGC everyone wanted to try Pachirisu in smogon doubles despite the pokemon being good only on Park's team. Thus, a not so good pokemon became OU.
>>26369747
>assault vest strawman
>not life orb
>>26369800
Its assholes like you that won't let me play Strawman in UU tier
>>26364628
BL is hell for mons, but having tiers is great PU is a blast for Pokemon who suck. Tell me what's your rating in Pokemon then. What wrong with sleep clause? Using spore/sleep powder/sing and making a Pokemon useless for 2-5 turns with 75+ accuracy what else do you want. What are you ranked? Inb4 insomnia and sleep talk
>>26369833
I like the low tiers, but good PU Pokémon get bumped up to NU or put into BL4 (I think?)
>>26369854
Only if their good enough.
>>26369527
Yeah you should probably not speak if you don't know how smogon usage tiering works. Pokemon move up or down tiers based on their usage over a 3 month period. If they get above or below 3.41%, they rise to that tier or fall out of that tier respectively. Also, the usage stats are released for us all to see, so it's not like we're just speaking from nothing. And yes, generally mons that get more useful will see more usage, that's common sense. But that correlation doesn't always hold true for things like conkeldurr and sylveon for example who were pretty bad but people(low ladder players) still used them anyways, thus they stayed in OU for a long time.
>>26369346
The whole point of tiers is so you can "play with the Pokémon you like most" in a format where they won't get completely destroyed by OP mons.
>>26369410
>what is switching
A waste of a turn.
>What is lum berry
A waste of an item on alot of mons just for countering one thing one time.
>what is safeguard
>what is taunt
Prankster says hi. You still have to be lucky enough to use one of those moves after being confused.
>>26370045
>switching
>lum berry
>either of these ever being a waste
So you're new to competitive battling, I take it?
The one thing I can't stand is when someone complains about a certain type of mon all they get in response is
"Just use somthing that counters it"
>Breloom with spore and swords dance is to OP
>Just use a Pokemon with Insomnia or a flying type
>It takes like 50 turns to kill toxic stall Gliscor
>Just use somthing that can't be poisoned
>Talonflame with gale wings swords dance and brave bird swept my whole team
>Just use somthing defensive
The whole "Just use a specific Pokemon to counter another Pokemon" doesn't work when you can't see what your opponents team plus there are more than 6-8 OP Pokemon that you can counter
Except, no fucktard. The rules are things a huge majority of players decide is unfair. Stop pretending like Smogon's ruleset is somehow the masterwork of one dude to annoy you.
>>26364628
>im good at this game, if i change the rules
<remove luck, too bad its an essential part of the game
>>26370158
Switching is a waste against prankster swagger. All that's going to happen it your new mon gets confused on the next turn. Lum berry is an ok item, but it is 100% a waste in any battle where the opponent doesn't status you.
>>26370175
These are all terrible examples for your point.
>Breloom
Had numerous checks and counters. Run any good grass, flying, or fairy types? You can deal with Breloom easily.
>Gliscor
Literally anything with Ice Beam, one of the most common moves in the metagame.
>Talonflame
Gale Wings is literally the only reason it gets as much use as it does. 81 base attack isn't really all that much. It's also no exaggeration that Stealth Rock outright shuts down Talonflame. Yes, they can roost. And you can wail on them through their paper-thin defenses while they roost.
If these Pokemon are giving you trouble, it sounds like the problem is your team. Try adding in a little more variety besides strong physical offense.
And for fuck's sake at least try to get an entry hazard or two down.
>>26370224
It's not a waste if it saves one of your strongest attackers from smacking itself to death.
When faced with Swagger the best move is switching into a special attacker. Maybe one that can absorb whatever status you expect will come out of the prankster next.
That said, Swagger definitely deserved its ban. Also
>implying any real battle wouldn't have status everywhere
>>26370260
>using entry hazards
>>26370045
I don't blame Smugon, they're just a bunch of faggots pretending to be the most annoying special snowflakes in this 'community', trying to fix a game which is already broken at its core.
Also
>mfw smogon mentors
Dear Lord.
>>26369953
I don't think they take into account low ladder players for tier shifts.
>>26369462
Baton Pass Clause is hilarious, too.
>infamous denis finds perfect BP-team.
>noobs copy-paste and climb the ladder
>no skill, ban plz
>smogon bans full BP
>denis finds a way
>ban even more
>he does it again
>smogon:goes full retard and implements the current Baton Pass Clause, a complex ban...
>>26370513
What was the perfect baton pass team?
Ah I see this thread is full of smogon defenders, or smoggots if you will
I prefer to use a team of 6 pokemon of MY CHOOSING and refuse to be restrained by arbitrary rules. Those who play by Smogons rules do not truly love their team and therefore can never truly win.
>b-but Muh bro Mega fug!!!!
>what is AG
>>26370656
So go play battlespot and get stomped by mega kanga, aegislash, and speed boost blaziken every game. Have fun!
>>26369462
Yeah but weather wars were shit anyways
>>26369456
Ok http://i.imgur.com/DgL6em3.jpg
>>26365065
You know VGC isn't Smogon, right?
>>26370656
>>26364628
Tiers are based on usage or basically how good a pokemon is,
You have the mons with crazy statspreads in Ubers because they are OP in every other format
OU is for the regular mons who are great
BL is the for the mons who are good but not good enough for OU
UU is for the mons too bad to get into BL
RU is the mons too bad to get into UU
NU is for the mons who literally suck
PU is for mons that shouldnt exist.
>>26370656
Go look up arbitrary ya dummy
>>26366717
More mons every gen
>>26371244
Yeah, but pointing out that VGC is a superior metagame to Smogon isn't putting up much of a fight considering they have even less variety in the last few years. At least you can actually fuck around in singles with varying playstyles and get a good score out of it if you're perceptive enough.
>>26369471
It means you're a fucking joke, m8. The trips confims this.
>>26371223
Yes, because the top placing teams in one tournament are completely reflective of the entire metagame over the course of the season. Yep, no flaws there .
>>26370656
Spotted the karenfag
>>26371293
>VGC
>having variety
You wat m8
>>26365052
>Tiers I don't agree with
I'll bet money you don't understand how tiers work.
>>26364678
The punchline is that Smogon are a bunch of retarded pussies that should be playing chess instead of Pokemon.
>>26364720
You are whats wrong with this world.
>>26371270
BL is for mons deemed broken in UU but hasn't received enough usage to be in OU. Doesn't mean they're not good enough for OU. They're tons of BL mons like volcarona, mega heracross, mega gyarados and togekiss that are very good in OU.
>>26371474
How do you know they dont play chess?
>>26370656
Good for you. Go play on battle spot/WiFi. Nobody is stopping you. Funny how a metagame you people don't care about you all can't stop talking about. Ironic isn't it
>>26371523
/thread
>>26370741
I do happen to play on battlespot, but they are not true battles since you cannot fight with all six pokemon
>>26371523
but this whole thread is dedicated to Smogon discussion, surely it is within the boundaries of what is correct to discuss our fair and intellectual criticisms of its structure here? I get the impression you are just upset that we do not share the same opinion.
>pokemon is perfectly fine in UU
>suddenly people use it more in OU
>pokemon raises to OU tier and can no longer be played in UU despite it not being too OP for UU
defend this smogtards
>>26364628
>t. 1050 elo shitter
>>26371566
It's usage based, what's your point? It found a niche in OU, people start liking it and using it more, it moves on temporarily or permanently.
>>26366717There also is people wanting an FU tier, one below PU
>>26364628
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmni1JsYvTw
reminder that PS and Smogon are modded by pissbabies
>>26371566
This is probably the only legitimate weakness of the system acknowledged in this thread.
I will say that the reason a Pokemon moves up is typically because it gets a new toy or a new strategy involving it is discovered, making it pretty dangerous to maintain in the lower tiers, e.g. Serperior. I'm not saying all cases are like that though -- you have Raikou for example, who OU just wanted for it being a non-Mega Mega Manectric.
>>26371566
RIP Quaggy ;_;7
>>26371613
I want it, middle stage evos should have their own meta.
>>26371640
You should be happy that Quagsire and Amoonguss are gone. It means stall in the lower tiers is much weaker. There are no longer any reliable Unaware walls below OU.
>>26371656
Coulden up to be one hell of a stallfest, with everything being able to have an eviolite. Chansey, Porygon 2 and some others would probably be banned instantly.
>>26371719I liked stall
>>26370531
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/glorious-pass-standard-baton-pass-chain.3506272/
>>26371822Fuck you
>>26371734
Littlecup isn't a stallfest. Doubt this would be different
>>26364628
>trusting balance in competetive in the hands of game freak
op u so crazay
>>26371854later bby
>>26371860
I don't think stats get high enough for stall to be viable in little cup and with all the high base power move thrown around offensive is just more viable.
Anyway what level would a mid stage tier even be held at. Deino doesn't evolve until lv 50 and Zweilous would be one of the powerhouses of the meta.
>>26365228
Well said
Is there any other good site to go to for movesets and EV spreads?
>>26372088
>>26367472
>obviously
>>26371978
Level 100 obviously.
>>26365228
Personally, I would enjoy a Pokemon with very little chance.
Many of the instances of chance are not very important. Why does Toxic only have 90% accuracy? I understand having Dynamic Punch and Zap Cannon be at low accuracies, and even moves like Thunder and Blizzard. But, stuff like Head Smash, Focus Blast, Aqua Tail and Stone Edge just seem arbitrary.
Especially when there is no replacement. Yes, you can use Surf instead of Hydro Pump, or Flamethrower instead of Fire Blast, but what is the more accurate version of Will-O-Wisp?
>Ah man, lets me where my bro, Blastoise Ranks at Smogon
>.... RU
>>26364628
No one is making you play by Smogon's rules. If you don't like it, you can play Battle Spot, or play with a different community.
>>26372756
>Oh no, my bro is in a low tier!
What you should be saying is:
>Oh good, my bro is in a low tier! Now he won't be overshadowed by genies!
>>26372756
RU is where regular Blastoise is, he was UU before they started putting Megas in separate tiers from the base Pokemon
Mega Blastoise is UU
>>26364628
Smogon is so fucking shit nowadays. They said that could never make Blaziken uu because of speedboost and wouldnt let blaze blaziken be uu either becaue lol complex ban but than they do the fucking bp ban which is a million times more complex.
>>26372895
>>26372858
Uber Tier= usable tier
Not Uber tier = shit tier
>>26371822Kill yourself
>>26373109
I agree about the bp clause being complex as a bit of hypocrisy, but they've taken note of it.
It's been up for discussion recently if Blaze Blaziken should be allowed back in OU, and for them to start a new precedent on banning if it does get re-admitted. I don't think it's looking all that favorable though for it's return, since Blaziken doesn't have much in the way of switch-ins. I remember they cited how it blows through Hippowdon as an example.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 399-472 (95 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
And its normal switch-ins get blown out by the right coverage, especially since Blaziken won't have to waste a moveslot on Protect, being Blaze.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
>>26373655
*its return
>>26373655
What blaze Blaziken would be UU at best. Those calculations mean shit if blaziken never gets a chance to attack due to only having 80 base speed. By your example Rampardos and Marowak are op.
>>26364745
You cuck
>>26364681
COnsidering how the only sleep move used is, in OU at least untill BW, was spore, they probabily would have banned Breloom back then. IDK how they would have done in XY w/o sleep clause.
>>26373655
It's really hard to run LO on a mon with 80 speed and a 80/70/70 bulk, especially with his typing.
>>26373991
>his
>>26373714
>>26373991
You guys realize Hoopa-U was Base 80 Speed too, right? And LO was common on it.
You've already got things banned to BL which act as enormous attackers, namely there because they hit so hard -- Diggersby, Crawdaunt, and Mega Heracross. So I highly doubt Blaziken would be let run loose in UU and below. The 'new toy' quality alone would have it as OU.
>>26374331
Hoopa-U was really great against stall-y teams, Blaziken lack a decent/good special bulk, absurd mixxed offenses, stabbed knock off, the best dark move in the game as a signature ans has way more common weaknesses.
>>26374331
We're not in gen 3 anymore, UU has things like gyarados, mence, pert and florges.
Smogon is great when I want to see the colored bars that represent a pokemons base stats
Tiers? hahahaha hahahaha
Just play anything goes, faggots
>>26374482
It doesn't need STAB Knock Off to get kills. It has LO/SD for that.
Besides, part of the reason Blaziken was banned in the first place was that stall was hard-pressed to stop it. In the current meta, it has Fire for Skarm, Fighting for Chan, can't be burned and resists Foul Play for Mega Sab, Fire for Amoong, Fire for Clef, Knock for Slowbro, HJK for Quag (literally 2HKOs), HJK for Alomomola, and people can even run Thunder Punch for defensive Azumarill. I'd mention defensive Talonflame, but HJK pressures that thing so much or it can even have Stone Edge.
>>26374511
Your point doesn't really apply here since your saying, that those big threats aren't as prevalent anymore, doesn't account for the not as fast big hitters that are literally banned from UU and below. Part of it comes down to having a switch-in. Defensive Lando-T and bulky Dragonite are examples of things that can semi-reliably halt Blaziken, and those guys are found in OU. Even Crocune dies to +2 LO HJK after Stealth Rock damage.
Man children playing a rng filled kids game "competitively"
>>26374700
Cringe
>>26374787
"Cringe" is playing Pokemon competitively
>>26366664
>serious smogon players
Kek
>>26374821
treating data like it's your friend is worse
>>26374700
>I like losing
>>26374700
>Treating code as a friend
How autistic are you anon?
>>26364720
why are you playing by smogon rules if you dont like it then
should I play smogon stuff to gitgud or play battlespot with things I've already bred?
>>26365228
It's always nice to see the one adult that posts in every /vp/ thread
>>26373917
>>26364681
They've unbanned sleep on numerous occasions as a test.
In ubers, it makes anything but Darkrai a complete joke.
Otherwise it's Amoongus city.
You literally NEED a sleep counter without it, making the game even shittier and more of a stallfest.
>>26364890
unfortunately this
>>26374692
Blaziken was banned because of speed boost and speed boost only.
>>26374692
My point applies here because those mons tend to match up really well against blaziken.
>>26375884
Why not both? It's not like you're restricted to just liking/playing one thing only.
>>26373109
How is this still an argument?
You tier a Pokémon by its best set. You don't allow it in lower tiers because it has different, shittier sets.
Let's allow Mewtwo in OU so long as it only runs Psywave. Let's put Talonflame in UU so long as it's running a special set. Arceus is viable in OU as long as it isn't running neither Defog nor any boosting moves.
Literally every single anti Smogon argument has been disproven again and again and again and yet retards still use them.
>>26376238
Yet they allow Garchomp in OU as long as it didnt use sandveil faggot. The same with any pokemon that had moody as an ability. You are the one with no argument smogon cock sucker.
>>26376291
Sand Veil is legal now, doofus. Evasion-boosting abilities were banned in gen V because of permanent weather, and Garchomp was banned in gen IV because it had no other abilities. Now that these have both been adjusted, Garchomp is perfectly balanced for OU.
Moody is uncompetitive and doesn't have a place in a competitive format. Unlike Acupressure, you don't have to waste a move trying to get an Evasion boost.
If those misinformed arguments are the best ones you've got, you really are a fucking idiot. Stick to Battle Spot.
>>26376391
So if they can ban moody than why the fuck can't they ban speedboost on Blaziken?
>>26376467
If you make an exception for Blaziken, you have to do it for every Pokemon.
It's simply not worth the time and effort.
You can ban Pokemon and you can ban abilities, but you can't ban the combination of a Pokemon and an ability.
>>26376291
>Yet they allow Garchomp in OU as long as it didnt use sandveil
No they didn't. Sand Veil was banned under Evasion Clause in Gen 5, and Garchomp was allowed to come back to OU because it could use Rough Skin.
Now that perma-weather doesn't exist, Sand Veil is balanced and unbanned.
>>26376467
Because Speed Boost is neither a broken ability nor an uncompetitive one. Banning Speed Boost means that Sharpedo, Yanmega, and Scolipede would get banned as well, and none of those Pokemon are broken. Moody is actually uncompetitive.
Smogon tries to veer away from complex bans unless there is no way around it. Look at all the times they tried to ban Baton Pass in simpler ways yet Baton Pass players kept finding ways around it. Limiting Baton Pass to three Pokemon - no problem, suicide lead Azelf to set up screens, Scolipede, Smeargle, Vaporeon. Limited to one user - still not a probem, suicide lead Azelf, GeoHerb Smeargle, pass to Espeon. Dennis finally gave them the solution that, while hurting Pokemon like QuiverPass Venomoth, would be the only way to end cancerous Baton Pass teams without banning the move entirely.
Please inform yourself before you make arguments. When XY came out it brought a lot of powercreep AND a lot of casuals. Trying to contain the powercreep has made the casual players angry for no reason. You cannot run Singles like Doubles, you NEED bans in order to keep things fun.
>>26376523
>>26376551
>>26376603
Yet they made the most complex ban I have ever seen with the Baton Pass bullshit face it Smogon is full of shit and the main reason why these fucking problems come up is because for some reason smogon refuses to get with the times and make doubles its main battling style instead of fucking singles.
>>26376675
I just explained the Baton Pass ban in my post.
I'm glad that you're proving that anti-Smogon fags are illiterate, though.
Smogon Doubles does exist, by the way. It's 6v6 and you can use multiple of the same item, unlike VGC. It has nothing to do with Singles. Smogon is not a single entity whose goal is set on making sure your bro is useless. Smogon's only goal is to enable competitive Pokemon players to play the game they like in a diverse way.
Imagine being forced to play Singles 3v3, at level 50, with Item Clause, and with every legendary banned. Imagine having to deal with PerishTrap Mega Gengar, or Mega Salamence, or Mega Kangaskhan in every single game (Do you know what the meta was like before Mega Salamence was suspected? Skarmory on every team, Magnezone on every team to trap the Skarmory, every Skarmory running Shed Shell to get away from Magnezone, every Mamoswine running Knock Off to get rid of the Shed Shell on the Skarmory so their own Mega Salamence could sweep. It was fucking mayhem).
If you don't like Smogon, that's okay. Nobody is forcing you to play by Smogon's rules. You implied that you prefer Doubles. Many people don't prefer Doubles, and no main game features Doubles as the center focus because Singles is how Pokemon has always been played.
You need to accept that other people like things that you may not like.
>>26376888
I never said one thing about tiers being bad nor did I say the BP thing was a bad idea dumbass. Alls I am saying is that they can do a super complex ban for BP than why can't they do a comparatively easy as fuck complex ban as allow blaze blaziken back.
>>26375057
It's all I got m8. People can barely tolerate being around me for more than a few hours a week. It's all I gots...
Guys stop with this thread, you're insulting my intelligence by taking your shitty community so seriously
>>26377015
I didn't mention tiers, either.
Baton Pass was special. Smogon TRIED to make a simpler ban for it multiple times. Limiting Baton Pass to three members, then limiting it to one member. The problem is that those bans were ineffective and these was no other choice but to implement a complex ban. I already said this in >>26376603 and >>26376238. You cannot ban an ability on a Pokemon because that would hold every single Pokemon accountable to be allowed in multiple tiers as long as it's not running X move or Y ability or Z item.
Again.
You tier a Pokemon based off of its BEST SET.
You do not allow it in lower tiers because it has other, shittier sets.also i got triples while posting a picture of Double in a post about Doubles
Reminder that Blaze Blaziken was UU in gen 4.
>>26378886
Reminder that it is no longer Gen IV.
>>26378998
But his movesets haven't changed since then, the only buffs he got since gen IV were his HA and his Mega. Blaze Blaziken is UU material only and even barely.
>>26379042
How many times do I have to repeat myself? >>26377146
Are we going to allow Swarm Scizor in UU? Inner Focus Alakazam in RU? Chlorophyll Whimsicott in NU?
>>26379374
they should
>>26364628
>If we keep adding rules, eventually the game's gotta be fun, right?
I agree, OP. A lassez-faire format of Mega Rayquaza, Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, and Xerneas should be the standard. That's much funner than dumb "rules" and "clauses".
>>26369410
>what is klefki ?
>>26381282
Ban legendaries!
I'll start off by stating that i strictly disagree with quite a few of the über bans on Smogon.
But what the hell is wrong with tiers?
It's not like it limits your options playing OU.
Sometimes i wonder if you guys are all idiots thinking lower tier pokémon only belong in that specific tier you're playing.
Clauses are also a great invention, because it literally takes no skill to use a ninjask-umbreon trapping combo to do whatever the hell you want.
If you wanna use "m-muh Kyogre" go play ubers, easy as that.
>>26382581
Bans? Hold on, are you a filthy Smogonfag? Why are you trying to prevent me from using my bro, Dark Void on every Pokémon Darkrai?
>>26364628
Bump! xD
>>26371474
>The punchline is that Smogon are a bunch of retarded pussies that should be playing chess instead of Pokemon.
You do realize Queen should be in Uber tier, right?
>>26364628
>"I'll arrange everything in tiers"
Except it's the players that determine the tiers, not some official entity. Whenever a new generation occurs, the NU, RU, and UU ladders do not exist because there are no usage stats yet.
>>26382628
>I'll start off by stating that i strictly disagree with quite a few of the über bans on Smogon.
Quite a lot of the people who frequently use that site feel the same way about that subject
>>26364745
Thanks John, you made a place where I can actually have a good team using shitmons.
>>26366066
Don't be a fagger, unban swagger
>>26382628
DESU, I don't dislike tiers because it's "limiting." Far from it. But, I get tired of being called a "casual" for bringing Undertiered pokes to OU. It seems like people think that if you bring anything less than a standard OU team to OU, or UU team to UU, etc., then your a casual-fag or you just aren't taking competitive seriously.
I am, I'm just using pokes in lower tiers because I still think their good enough to be used with great success. I didn't specifically look in the lower tiers. My pokes of choice just happen to be down there.
Or lets say I beat a team, who so happens to have, lets say, 3 OU pokemon while mine has 4.
>You only beat me because I'm using undertiered pokemon.
No...I beat you cause you suck....or hax happened in my favor, ...or both. Your pokemon's tier placement didn't have THAT big of an impact.
>>26392140
Everyone enjoyed the days of Swagplay Boobookeys, bring it back.
>>26373175
People who just think lower tiers are there as a gargabe can doesnt deserve to talk about tiers
>>26392082
Except the people who get reqs, right?
>>26364628
UU Is literally the best tier
>>26392253
Then you've never been above 1300. In the high ladder, it's COMMONPLACE to see lower tiered Pokemon in OU teams, because people actually understand their niche.
>>26392437
But the people who got reqs aren't all voting unanimously to ban everything
>>26392676
But the majority of players with reqs are, and that is what matters. A 60% vote is needed for a ban to go through, if I recall correctly.
>>26392777
The point I'm making is that not every player there agrees with every ban, regardless of whether we're only including people who got the requirements to vote
>>26392382
>can doesnt deserve to talk about tiers
>>26392810
But the ones who know what's better for the meta do. Do you really want to play a meta determined by 1100 shitters?
>>26392953
No legends would be rule 1.
Why does Smogon love and favor stall so much? Stall is the most boring play style.
>>26393046
>>26370513
How did he do it again and again?
>>26393046
Because in a game where it's mandatory to KO opponent to get a win, they wanted to create another win condition that's basically "How fast can I slow the game down so that the opponent outright surrenders cuz he's bored of this shit?"
>>26376888
Hey man I know I'm late and all butchecked
>>26376888
>Nobody is forcing you to play by Smogon's rules
Not true, more often than not they'd tell you that you can't use certain Pokes all cause Smogon said so.
>>26393138
Then discuss the ruleset with whoever you are battling before hand.
>>26370513
>Smogon goes full retard and implements Baton Pass Clause
>full retard
>perfect team
Why is /vp/ so full of shitters? Do you realize that any action taken against a "perfect team" cannot be considered "full retard"?
Do you realize that the current Baton Pass Clause was suggested by dennis himself as the only way to put an end to the strategy?
Do you realize that there was NO OTHER OPTION than to implement the Baton Pass Clause? Would you rather have the move banned entirely? Because you can be assured that there would be even more endless bitching. Smogon is damned if it bans something and damned if it doesn't.
I fucking hate what the flood of casual redditors and GameFAQs from XY did to this board and its perception of Smogon. There was never this constant stupidity floating around on this board pre-XY, and if there was they would get called out immediately.
Idiots were saying that Mold Breaker Haxorus was a legitimate counter to Baton Pass. Every single suspect test Smogon has implemented has had an endless amount of bitching and whining on /vp/. People were defending Mega Kangaskhan, Aegislash, Mega Mawile, Greninja, Mega Lucario, MEGA FUCKING BASE 130 SPEED SHADOW TAG, and once the meta settled they were suddenly quiet because it was always the RIGHT decision to make. Smogon even retested Aegislash to appease shitters and guess fucking what? It was a near unanimous vote to keep it the fuck in Ubers because it's such a cancerous mon in OU.
>>26393138
That's bad sportsmanship and that has nothing to do with Smogon itself. I'm not going to shit on VGC because Verlisify exists.
>>26393119Be praying.
>>26370741
I actually just beat a Mega Kanga, Aegislah and power herb Xerneas and it was the most satisfying feeling I've felt in years
>>26376888
>Double
>trips
>>26370299
>>26370224
Why exactly is Swagger banned?Also, why Carracosta?
>>26393321
Heads or Tails?
>>26393146
>Baton pass
>Haze on switch
>All stats reset
Nigger, shit like cryogonal, weezing, anything that learns haze/clear smog can counter baton passing, quit being a faggot
>Greninja ban
Greninja should not be banned and has no legitimate reason for being banned. ORAS came around, it got gunk shot and everybody fucking lost it, EVEN THOUGH physical Greninjas were still a huge minority.
Fuck smogon for taking away froakie from me.
>>26393321
cuz Smogon hates luck and hax with every fiber of their being and of course the sheep accept it.
>>26393340
And if you play a team that isn't baton pass, Cryogonal and Weezing are completely dead weight.
>>26393059
M-Heracross is the king of wallbreakers. All hail.
>>26379398
I'd rather not see Talonflame in RU just because it doesnt have Gale Wings.
Even without priority, it still has base 126 speed and still hits hard because of its hige base power in its STAB moves
>>26393347
>Weezing
>Will-o-wisp
>Flamethrower
>Sludge wave
>Clear smog/haze
>Completely stops ferrothorn and forretress
>Checks setup, like baton pass/dd/calm mind/etc
>Fucking destroys Clefable
>Cryogonal
>Crazy stupid fast + Levitate
>Knock off
>Freeze dry
>HP grass or water/rapid spin if you really want
>Haze
>Wrecks Quagsire + company
Still have to look out for rocks tho
BONUS
>Gengar
>Haze
Need i say more?
>>26393340
>>26393340
Greninja did deserve its ban. Greninja's had no issues going mixed because it gains STAB on literally every move it uses, with makes it hit deceptively hard even with its middling attacking stats.
Also no one wants to use dumb shit like AssVest Skuntank just to reliably deal with frog because dumb shit like AV Skuntank is LITERALLY only good for one job, and then gets it shit slapped by the rest of OU So congrats, you took down Greninja, but now you have 5 other pokemon to deal with.
>>26393340
So you think every team should run Haze in the off chance you run into Baton Pass. That is the definition of overcentralization.
I'd like to remind you that two top players faced off, one with Haze Unaware Quagsire and the other with Baton Pass. Haze user lost. This guy was a top player who brought Unaware Haze SPECIFICALLY to deal with Baton Pass and still couldn't deal with the pressure. Make of that what you will.
If there was no legitimate reason to ban Greninja, it would not have been banned. STAB on every attack and every coverage move under the sun is ridiculous.
I think I need to make some kind of masterpost or video about these shitty arguments that get repeated over and over and over again.
>>26393425
You are completely retarded.
Greninja didn't deserve it's ban, it's completely walled by anything that can take a hit
Greninja is not wallbreakers material, he cannot his outrageously hard. He can take a hit with a focus sash, kill one sweeper, then die the next turn.
Take bisharp for example, if you switch in on a scald or a gunk shot, then sucker punch next turn before Greninja can change type, that is it, you beat him.
Same goes for shot like aggron, switch into a resisted attack, take the hit, iron head, you win.
If you think it should be banned, you clearly have been playing the fucking game wrong.
>>26393456
>Greninja gets every coverage move under the sun
Except it doesn't. There's maybe 8 good moves between physical and special, and even then it's safer to go with something like HP poison or grass
>>26393469
>aggron
nigga...
>>26393492
Or any steel type, don't get your panties in an NU tier twist
The problem with Smogon is stall. Stall dominates every tier because they're too stupid to recognize something as overpowered unless it hits hard, and even then the supposedly overpowered offensive mons they ban, aren't overpowered at all. And so now every single tier is topped by a stall team. There's no point in playing Smogon singles unless you play with a stall team, there's no way you can get to the top.
>>26392953
No and you aren't understanding what I"m saying at all
>>26393502
>any non-shit steel type that isn't banned or ferrothorn
yeah, have fun getting OHKO/2HKO by Hydro Pump/Low Kick
>>26393469
You've been playing the fucking game wrong if you think that
A. Bisharp can switch in to Scald
B. Greninja is going to stay in on a mon that has priority
C. Greninja runs Scald over Hydro Pump in the first fucking place how much of a shitter are you
>>26393512
Okay, explain what you're saying so I can understand. What is the problem with informed players determining what is good for the meta?
>>26393511
You can play other tiers than OU or stop being a shitter and learn to play against Stall, a completely legitimate playstyle.
>>26393469
Or a competent player switches Greninja out, U-Turns away, predicts the switch.
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 437-515 (161.2 - 190%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Great job been a check not a counter.
>>26393523
Stall tops every singles smogon tier. I will say stall can be a legitimate playstyle, except with smogon, who bans every single offensive presence that has a chance against stall. As far as smogon goes, no it's not a legitimate playstyle, it's completely overpowered.
>or stop being a shitter and learn to play against Stall
I guess literally everyone whose not a stall player is a shitter because stall is topping every tier.
>>26393523
>What is the problem with informed players determining what is good for the meta?
I never said there was a problem with that or anything related to that. All I said is that there isn't unanimous agreement on bans during suspect test voting, meaning that some of those people who are voting dont think x should be banned, and from that, it can be inferred that not all of those players agree on every ban.
>>26393561
>>26393059
There are multiple top players who do not run Stall.
You can't just say "Stall is overpowered". You have to explain why.
>>26393576
At least 60% agree. There is not a problem here. Expecting every vote to be unanimous is ridiculous.
>>26392953
>But the ones who know what's better for the meta do
No it's the people who win the most, aka stall players, who decide. Not anyone more informed. Anyone with any slight knowledge of the game, would know that Mega Sableye should be banned, while also knowing that Hoopa U did not deserve to be.
>>26388115
They're trying to prevent a whole team of queens retard
>>26393456
Greninja isnt THAT storng, he's just a special-attacking glass cannon with coverage. I mean all you have to do is switch in Chansey.
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 320-377 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
>>26393591
Wrong. They're all stall players.
Highest percentage OU player now: PDCYoutube2
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374093118
Highest percentage winning UU, RU, NU and PU player now: pokemonisfun
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-349416992
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-363363465
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-355787493
Its very simple how it became overpowered, smogon continuously bans any and all threats to stall. No one can any long deal the type of damage necessary to deal with stall. The biggest baddest stall mons like Chansey and Mega Sableye are still in OU, while the big and bad offensive mons are all banned.
if GF would just take some time to actually balance the game a little more instead of making it even worse with dumb stuff like megas...
>>26393591
Like I said earlier, I never thought that was a problem at all.
Going back to my very first reply here, it was only meant to be commentary to that one guy who came in and said he didn't agree with some of the bans which I feel isn't an unreasonable opinion. Other than that small Issue, as far as I can tell, we're in complete agreement on everything else
>>26393631
>switch into low kick and lose half your health
>get outsped next turn and die
Nice counter you got there senpai. :^)
>>26393714
GF only cares about doubles now
>>26393561
>Stall tops every Smogon tier
U B E R S
B
E
R
S
>>26393867
I think he was being sarcastic. If he was not, then he is a complete retard.
>>26393631
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 213-252 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Bitch, don't intentionally misrepresent the numbers. Only scrubs run chansey with no Eviolite.
I mean, greninja still wins the match up. No doubt. But don't be a bitch just to attempt to prove your point.
Why won't smogon nerf aegislash?
>>26397251
How could Smogon nerf a Pokémon?
>>26393209
I'd ratherCRY FOR THE MOON
