Moves whose only effect is to boost the users stats are restricted to one use until switched out.
This includes:
Swords Dance
Bulk up
Defense curl
Iron Defense
Sharpen
Harden
Howl
Nasty Plot
Calm Mind
Tail Glow
Amnesia
Agility
Double Team
etc.
The ones that are excluded from this restriction are:
Acupressure
Charge Beam
Powered up Punch
Skull bash
etc.
However, the limited moves can be used with another:
>A Pokémon can use Swords Dance and Dragon Dance both once and receive +3 atk & +1 speed
>A Pokémon can use Nasty Plot and Double Team both once
Restricting moves like this makes certain Pokémon far less broken, balances sweepers, and prevents boosting stall Pokémon from becoming toxic, all while not inhibiting most wallbreakers from setting up to do their job.
Right now, I only see positives.
What are some negative impacts this may have?
Would it be a welcome fix?
>>26356104
The way I see it, the only negatives are as follows
>"M-MUH META!"
>Makes gimmick 'mons even more useless
That you included Double Team as now legal makes me discard you and your samefag reply's opinion on the matter desu.
Sounds gay as hell and makes stall teams way too strong.
>>26356154
Yeah,
Double team is a move.
This isn't smogon.
I only nerfed it
Also, Clefable, the highest ranked stallmon in the smogon meta is needed drastically, along with Cresselia and Kyogre in VGC.
Most stall relies on repetitive boosts, while most wallbreakers either need one (Bisharp) or none (Kyurem), both of which, when together, wipe out the entirety of stall. I fail to see how either of you claims make sense.
>>26356199
*is nerfed drastically
>>26356154
>samefag opinion
Okay I know my opinion kinda meshes with OPs, but it doesn't make me a fucking samefag.
>>26356104
Bellydrum on everything
Just make every Pokemon in the game learn Taunt via TM.
>Speed Boost no longer boosts speed per turn
>Instead, it boosts the user's speed by one/two stages when they KO an opposing pokemon, similar to Moxie
How does this change Speed Boost users?
>>26356502
Because there's certainly no negative reprecussions for that.
>>26356502
W O W
>implying
Also,
If they were good, they would already be used.
There are like four or five Pokémon families that would even look at belly drum as an option.
Azumaril
Ursaring
Linoone
Slurpuff
Darmanitan??
Notice how only one is OU.
Nothing would change, because the HP cut balances the move to a tee. No matter the meta, charizard is never hitting belly drum outside of Mega X, which would sacrifice the speed boost, hence balance.
>>26356600
That doesn't fulfill the purpose intented. Everything that needs taunt already gets it, and everyone won't run it anyway. The point it to not max out stats on one move. It doesn't evenake sense flavor wise. If manaphy uses Tail Glow, just how would doing it again while already illuminated do anything?
Same goes for calm mind and meditate. You already did it and got the effect. How would doing it again affect anything?
>>26356636
I didn't think about moxie and speed boost/moxie
Stallfag pls go
>>26356758
Can someone please explain how this helps stall?
>>26356782
Are you retarded?
>>26356842
Explain.
I did
>>26356199
What I hear you saying is that one needs to Swords Dance twice to beat stall teams
>>26356958
Because then you can't break a stall by boosting
If you let your opponent get off more than one or two double boosts you deserve to lose.
>>26357119
Read>>26356199
You. Dont. Need. To.
Plus, stall teams have phazers for that exact reason.
>>26357128
You know things like blaziken and Scolipede are either banned or limited in several formats due to it being hard to stop from boosting. If it is viable, people will do it, and many high ranked players do against other high ranked people who try to stop them (see Denis Stall).
>>26356104
How are setup sweepers a big problem? And how will this actually prevent good sweepers that only need one boost from being as “broken“ as before?
Buffs/debuffs now go away in 5 turns.
"Sharply raised..." buffs/debuffs go away in 3 turns. And so on.
Attacks that buff multiple stats will go away in 3 turns, regardless of how many are raised or how high they're raised.
Not sure how to fix Speed Boost without completely changing how it works, like turning it into Moxie for speed or making it lose speed if it gets hit.
>waaaahhh my favorite wall happens to not learn a stat boosting move that covers its lesser defensive stat and I keep getting swept by a Pokemon whose primary attack stat is the same type waaaahhh
cry me a fucking river you shitter
bulky teams have been the go-to ever since SkarmBliss became a thing and neither of them needed any boosting to be the most infamous stall duo Pokemon has ever seen. Stat boosting is not a problem and if you let a scizor/slide/excadrill SD more than once, you are the problem, not them.
>>26357298
This is the most retarded thing I have read today.
>>26357298
>Buffs/debuffs now go away in 5 turns.
>"Sharply raised..." buffs/debuffs go away in 3 turns. And so on.
>Attacks that buff multiple stats will go away in 3 turns, regardless of how many are raised or how high they're raised.
For what purpose?
>>26357312
How so?
>>26357320
Have you ever played an RPG other than Pokemon?
>>26357340
If I want another game, I'll play another game. But this is about Pokémon, so I ask again: For what purpose?
>>26357262
Most teams can handle a single Swords Dance when they have a resist.
When a mon gets in the plus +3/4 range, the game is over. This can happen in one turn on teams dedicated to it.
>>26357300
I'm just balancing it. Every set up sweeper works fine with just one boost.
Anything past that gets out of hand. Pokemon like scizor are perfect examples of mons that can and WILL get off more than one SD if played right. 130 attack x3 with a 60bp priority move is ridiculous. How is that so hard?
Also again, where is the draw back to changing the mechanic?
I haven't seen one credible point yet on why it would hurt the game.
>>26357383
Not him, but I don't see any reason why Pokémon can't borrow ideas from similar games.
>>26357383
>it can't be this way cause then it's not pokemon
???
I don't see a reason for this. It removes some risk/reward dynamic for...what, exactly?
>>26357438
Guy, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't just make that 5 turns thing up from thin air, but you have to work with me here. At least give me an idea of your reasoning before going immediately for comedy chevrons.
>>26356104
I'm amused
>>26357427
>When a mon gets in the plus +3/4 range, the game is over. This can happen in one turn on teams dedicated to it.
I'd like to see an example for this, because as far as I am aware this is not a common thing in competitive play outside of Manaphy in OU and Xerneas in VGC who do it in one boost, anyway. Surely if this is actually a common problem that needs a nerf it must be a strategy with common examples.
>>26357498
Somebody Fug this
>>26357476
Balance. Honestly, the risk/reward is only entertaining when it doesn't result in game deciding 50/50s where you or the opponent will steam roll everything, even full teams, counters included.
>>26357512
Multiscale Dragonite esp. with WP
M-/Scizor
Manaphy like you said
Clefable
Basically any A- or higher OU setup mon
>>26357320
>>26357383
For balance of course. I don't see why screens, weather, and the rooms all can only last for a few turns but buffs are permanent.
>>26357586
Because buffs and debuffs reset on switch out.
>>26357498
>>26356734
Charizard X
>BellyDrum
>Roost
>Flame Charge
>Dragon claw
>bellydrum
>roost
>flame charge
>instawin
>>26357572
>Multiscale Dragonite esp. with WP
That can get to +3/+1, but only if the opponent makes a mistake and it would still be able to do so with your rule change.
>M-/Scizor
Can't get to +3 in one turn as far as I know.
>Manaphy like you said
Can get to +3 in one turn, but has low offensive stats for OU and is not really dominant enough to not just ban it, but nerf all boosting.
>Clefable
How?
>Basically any A- or higher OU setup mon
Most Pokémon can get at most +2 from a boosting move in one turn.
>>26357594
Screens reset from brick break and weather & rooms reset from Air Lock. What's your point?
A turn limit stops the user from being able to just setup then steamroll his opponent or stall, but it doesn't ruin the viability of a pokemon that relies on setups.
>>26357682
The point is that the trade off for setting up is that if the opponent switches in a counter, you have lost one turn to set up and will lose another turn switching. Screens and Weather last 5 or 8 turns because their benefits automatically transfer to the Pokémon you switch in, which makes them better than boosting moves in situations where you have to switch. Considering that switching is one of the central aspects of single battles (if a person who can switch plays against someone who can't, the second player will almost surely lose), and free turns are one of the most important resources, I'd say the trade off of losing your boosts on switch balances boosting moves against screens pretty nicely.
>>26357594
Noice
>>26357658
Same as now??
Tell me how may wins you've gotten with that set because this can be done right now.
>three turns of setup
>>"Oh noes, he used belly drum, better switch"
>>"Charizard used roost"
>>"Garchomp used Outrage"
>Heatran
>>26357662
Dragonite only needs to get hit by a super effective move and use DD
Scizor is bulky enough to setup two turns in a row or punish its checks on the switch with super power, allowing to SD again
Manaphy has base 100 which is more than decent
My point is most setup sweepers in OU can achieve multiple big boosts safely, not just one, which is what causes imbalance.
They are still really good with on boost, but more than one causes them to destroy everything, especially those mons with priority moves
>mfw running cotton guard/DD/roost Altaria
showdown shitters were not ready for that
most hilarious 2 months of my life
>>26357809
I seriously wonder what version of OU you are playing where it is safe to go for multiple boosts, or where a +3/4 means the game is won at any time but late game. I just don't see it at all.
I'd also still like to see an example of those dedicated teams that get to +3 or more in one turn easily.
>>26357658
THE
ABSOLUTE
MAD
MAN
>>26357881
I've been #30 in gen 6 OU, elo ~1850
If you know what you're doing, sweepers can and will get the boost
Ex.
Any Baton Pass team (Scolipede: 1turn)
Any double dance team (Haxorus: 2turns)
Any WP dragon dancer (Dnite: one turn)
Bulky SDers (Scizor, Bisharp: 2turns)
It's all in the thread
>no one runs Malamar to completely fuck over stat boosters
Kinda sad actually
>>26358047
>NU
gee I wonder why no one runs it...
>>26357954
>Any Baton Pass team (Scolipede: 1turn)
Since you are so high in the ladder, you must know without a doubt that Scolipede can't Baton Pass Speed and Attack at once anymore. And in any case, this is +2/+1, not +3. You won't be muscleing past Scolipedes counters at just +2. AND this situation would still be present with your rule change.
>Any double dance team (Haxorus: 2turns)
Haxorus is not even OU, and not even ranked for OU viability. And it takes two turns to get +2/+2. And it would still be able to do this with the proposed rule change, unless you mean two Dragon Dances when you say Double Dance, which is not what that means.
>Any WP dragon dancer (Dnite: one turn)
That works but relies on your opponent making mistakes. It's not broken in any case.
>Bulky SDers (Scizor, Bisharp: 2turns)
Two turns. Also Bisharp is not bulky. If anything, it gets to +4 on an opponents Defog and a Sword Dance on switch out.
For someone who is so high in OU, you certainly don't sound like you know a lot about OU.
>>26358135
>nobody uses it because nobody uses it
>>26358135
To be fair Focus Sash will let it survive a hit and if the opponent was boosting speed you can Destiny Bond it, or if you predict a switch you can go into Knock Off or Simple Beam.
>>26357572
but I AM the fugmaker, I have high standards for quality so I would just screenshot from an emulator or something
>>26357612
>80x89
>thumbnail
>tiniest squished fucking fug i've ever seen
fug u
>>26358186
In a non-greentext world nobody uses it because it is too slow and frail to switch into setup sweepers and Topsy Turvy them. Just use Quagsire and get the same effect without even using a turn outside switching.
>>26356104
nah I like sweeping
I hate stall and smogon and most of the current meta, but if you're so fucking slow you let the enemy boost to x4 anything you deserve to lose on the spot.
>>26358238
>get the same effect
That's wrong you piece of shit.
>>26358325
The effect of forcing the opposing sweeper to switch out or be walled, stopping their sweep. Calm down, you baby. They serve the same function.
>>26358188
>enemy DDs
>Malamar uses Dbond
>enemy uses DD 8 more times then OHKOs it and the rest of your team
great plan boss
>>26358186
It's in NU because of god awful typing that lets anything with U-turn 2HKO it, garbage BST and a trash moveset that requires tailwind or trick room support to even get started. Doesn't even get STAB on Superpower so you're not going to OHKO any common threats until +2.
Want me to go on?
>>26358361
>Letting the enemy DD 8 whole times after Topsy Turving it
This thread is the dumbest thing I've read all month.
>>26357172
>Plus, stall teams have phazers for that exact reason.
Yeah exactly, so explain again why we need to nerf boosting moves when phazers are everywhere?
>>26356104
>Having Dragon Dance and Sword Dance in the same movepool
>>26358383
You just said that the first move you'd use after a speed boost would be destiny bond. Keep in mind you now have to use it 7 more times to ensure you don't get killed without taking them down. Or be ultra good at mind games.
And then one you're out of Dbond PP they substitute to block your topsy turvy and then you lose instantly.
any other thoughts or are we done
>>26358480
Just keep destiny bonding until you're down to 2 PP and then Topsy Turvy to bring all their stats back into the unredeemable without having to either try to bring them back or having to kill the Malamar. If you kill the Malamar directly you let the opposing side to bring in their own sweeper and the other sweeper can't do nothing about it but switch.
If you try to boost again the Malamar would probably know this and begin whacking you with Knock Off, making you lose whatever you have.
If you try to kill Malamar directly after that and you anticipate it you can still destiny bond it and you'll get rid of a potent threat.
If you predict the switch you can either switch into your own Mon or keep Malamar in and use knock off or Simple Beam on whatever is coming in to crutch it.
If you're just average at mindgames you should know that leading the opponent into false hope is the best way to take advantage of the game.
>>26358358
Ok. I apologize. You should have been more specific tho.
>>26358573
The problem is that all of these things are LITERALLY 100% reliant on your opponent either making a mistake or being a worse player than you. If I see you repeatedly using Dbond in this scenario I'd substitute after the 4th one. Hell, I could substitute after the first one and then play mindgames against you by forcing you to correctly predict when I'm going to sub and when I'm going to DD, and if you guess wrong just one time I now have the momentum and will kill you the next time you break my sub.
There is no conceivable scenario that you've outlined where you get the advantage because of something you did; your opponent has to mess up. And that's a recipe for losing just about every time.
>>26358709
But this game is all about taking advantage of each other's mistakes via mindgames. That's why the most top Pokemon are usually the more safest. That's why you see basically the same team in the Nationals and as such. The only way to get the advantage over an opponent is to mindgame them, it has always been about the mindgames
>>26358233
>thumbnail
>Picture in OP is 240x160
make a better one faggot
>>26356104
You do realize that they already have the extremely bad downside of literally sitting on your ass for a turn, right? Why exactly do they need to be balanced?
