>It's a Fire Starter
>It's a cat
>With stripes
>people will still deny the Zodiac
>despite the last 4 gens being part of the Zodiac
Explain yourself
>implying dfxs are doges
>>26305567
shit i fucked up
>>26305548
Foxes are Canids, not Canines.
becuase Gen 2, Gen 6 and Gen 7 have only shaky at best proofs
>>26305599
It's not just shaky, it's inconsistent. The same "proof" used for Gen II for example is ignored for Gen I and VI because it goes against the argument.
>>26305567
>The biological family Canidae /ˈkænᵻdiː/ [2] is a lineage of carnivorans that includes domestic dogs, wolves, foxes, jackals, dingoes, and many other extant and extinct dog-like mammals.
>>26305595
Gamefreak already had a fire dog, so they made a fire fox. According to science, foxes and dogs are close enough.
>>26305599
The Chinese Zodiac pattern didn't really start until Gen 3, for reasons. Mostly because Gamefreak's hindsight couldn't possible tell any reason to do a pattern when making Gen 1 or it's sequel
Gamefreak has already admitted Gen 4 and 5 is based on the Zodiac. Litten is clearly a tiger cub.
>>26305631
Idk when people start calling fennekin a dog even though her final evo is fucking delPHOX is when I start to turn my head
>>26305642
Actually, according to science, dogs and foxes are far removed from one another.
>>26305631
I said shaky at best. Same thing for Gen 6 - yes, Foxes are canides, but both sheep/goat and ox are bovides and should thus count as the same animal, according to zodiacfags.
And the cat has it's own role in the zodiac, so counting it as a tiger is pretty bad
>>26305642
>Gamefreak has already admitted Gen 4 and 5 is based on the Zodiac.
[citation needed]
>>26305631
The fact that Charizard can fit in the zodiac is coincidence. Typhlosion is a massive stretch, but that's because Gamefreak hasn't started the pattern until Gen 3. Once Gold and Silver turned out to be financially successful, Gamefreak knew they could start making newer generations with newer Pokemon
>>26305656
Do you also think humans aren't primates?
>>26305642
>close enough
Still not a dog
However, herdier could be the rat
they are both mammals so its close enough
>>26305670
What kind of stupid, irrelevant question is that?
>>26305642
But they already have a fire fox too? In fact it's the feminine counterpart of the fire dog.
>>26305676
>>26305678
>they are both mammals so its close enough
You don't know what the scientific classification of animals is? Kingdoms, phylum, class, order, suborder, and lastly family.
Try looking it up.
Protip: Dogs and foxes are in the same family. You can't get much damn closer than that. To put that in perspective, dogs are closer to foxes than modern humans were closer to Neanderthals.
>>26305709
What?
>>26305642
Ah, the armchair taxonomist argument.
You're arguing that because they belong to the same family, they are the same species, huh?
I suppose rats are gerbils, too. And that otters are badgers are weasels are wolverines as well. And that cows are goats are antelopes.
GameFreak already a Fire dog, and therefore they would never make another one, let alone a starter? I suppose they'd never make a Fire-type fox again, either. Or a Water-type seal.
And according to science, dogs and foxes are close enough. Well, considering that dogs cannot interbreed with foxes and produce viable offspring, I would be impression that according to science, they are literally not quite close enough.
Please, some evidence regarding GameFreak saying Chimchar and Tepig being part of the Zodiac? Because the only thing they've confirmed is that they are from the same story.
>>26305713
Vulpix and Growlithe? They're both version exclusives with opposite 75% gender ratios?
>>26305713
>Protip: Dogs and foxes are in the same family
again, sheep and ox are in the same family
and you're missing Genus, Species and Subspecies.
Wanna know a Funfact? Dogs can't breed with foxes, because they aren't "close enough" - only animals with the sam Genus can breed. And ogs are canines while foxes are Vulpines.
>>26305724
Ah, the ad hominem
Foxes are canines. Deal with it. There's an obvious pattern going on with the fire starters.
Seriously, answer this question: do you honestly think to yourself that Gamefreak has coincidently designed the fire starters in ways where they fit into the zodiac?
>these Pokemon can only be based on one thing!!!
The evidence is jarringly obvious, starring you right in the face. Gamefreak is clearly doing a pattern. Any one else would look at the evidence and go "Hmm...yeah, that makes sense." /vp/ ,always the contrarians, refuse to acknowledge it.
Litten is going to evolve into a full grown Tiger, and people will still try to deny it.
>>26305765
>Foxes are canines
wrong, foxes are vulpines
>>26305765
>ad hominem
Stop using terms you don't understand. If someone calls you a fucking retard and then argues you with, that's not ad hominem, it's simply being rude. If they say your argument is wrong because you're a fucking retard without addressing anything, that is ad hominem.
>>26305713
>To put that in perspective, dogs are closer to foxes than modern humans were closer to Neanderthals.
No.
Modern humans: Homo sapiens
Neaderthals: Homo neanderthalis
Notice how they both have "homo" there? That's because they're in the same genus. Hell, some scientists believe we and neanderthals are even more closely related to that and we're just subspecies of Homo sapiens as a whole, making us Homo sapiens sapiens and neanderthals Homo sapiens neanderthalis.
For comparison,
Domestic Dog: Canis lupus familaris
Fennec Fox: Vulpes Zerda
Their closest relation is in family (Canidae), which is actually a pretty large distinction. Orangutans and humans also share a family (Hominidae), but if I called Gardevoir an orangutan you'd call me a fucking retard.
tl;dr: You're a fucking retard, off yourself.
Litten is going to evolve into a Tiger and all the deniers will finally shut up for good.
I mean, holy shit. For fucks sake: Gamefreak revealed 3 days ago a fucking fire cat. And people STILL DENY the facts.
>DURR...GUYS...COULD IT BE?
O I wonder what LITTEN, the FIRE CAT WITH STRIPES, is going to evolve into?
>>26305777
Look up what ad hominem means
Insulting someone's intelligence by calling them an "armchair taxidermist" is an ad hominem
>>26305765
>Foxes are canines. Deal with it
At no point did I ever contend this. In fact, I affirmed that. You simply chose to ignore the fact they are of separate genii and cannot interbreed. They are scientifically not the same animal.
>do you honestly think to yourself that Gamefreak has coincidently designed the fire starters in ways where they fit into the zodiac?
It is clear that I do not. Do you believe the theory that the Grass starters all represent dinosaurs?
>these Pokemon can only be based on one thing!!!
Again, I did not say this. Let me ask you a question though, since you conveniently sidestepped it:
Do you believe there is only one Pokemon per animal? Because it seems you are of the belief that either Vulpix or Fennekin are not foxes, and that either Seel or Popplio are not seals.
Still waiting on actual statements from GameFreak about the zodiac, by the way.
>>26305781
>Their closest relation is in family (Canidae), which is actually a pretty large distinction.
this. Even two animals in the chinese zodiac share a family, ox and sheep/goat are Bovidae. And I've never seen zodiacfags address that point at any time I brought it up. It's always ignored
>>26305826
>"armchair taxidermist"
He called you a taxonomist, idiot.
It's only ad hominem when you don't address any points of the argument.
>>26305765
>>these Pokemon can only be based on one thing!!!
Okay then, show me what parts of Fennekin are based on a dog rather than a fox.
>>26305826
No, it's not, I don't need to look it up because I know what it means, and no one even called you an armchair taxidermist so have you moved on to "I was only pretending to be retarded" yet?
>>26305826
Except even if Litten does become a tiger, that still doesn't address the problems with Charmander, Cyndaquil, or Fennekin.
>>26305826
>whole story about why the cat isn't in the zodiac
>a cat confirm the zodiac theory
And you still ask why people think you are retarded
>>26305844
We are arguing about the zodiac here.
IF....IF Fennekin was a fire frog. Or a fire fish. Or a fire eagle. Then I can see why people would deny the zodiac.
But, Fennekin is a canine.
How can someone look at this and think "lol coincidence"
>>26305877
So you're using the Zodiac to justify that Fennekin is a dog and thus part of the Zodiac?
That's circular reasoning, not valid. Try again.
>>26305869
come on anon, don't be so mean, they could still be based off the vietnamese zodiac, where the rabbit is substituted with the cat
>>26305877
Probably seeing a lizard in the dragon slot, a hedgehog thing in the rat slot, a fox in the dog slot and thinking "wait a minute that's not right"
>>26305862
>if Litten becomes a tiger
Have you heard the phrase, "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck,"?
What else is kitten with stripes exactly supposed to evolve into?
>>26305877
>But, Fennekin is a canine.
*vulpine
doesn't sound good that convincing if you don't lie, right?
>>26305877
Charmander is a salamander, not a dragon, in fact not even Charizard was part dragon until gen VI.
Your whole bullshit theory is broken there, at gen 1.
>they didn't make the pattern yet!!1!
I guess they also conveniently chose to exclude gen 6 from the pattern when they made a fire fox instead of a dog, right?
>>26305895
Considering it barely has any stripes and its primary color is black, I feel it's way too early to be calling definite evolutions. You also really like bringing up irrelevant points, don't you?
>>26305895
I don't know anon, what could a fish evolve into?
>>26305893
Fire breathing reptiles are dragons
Cyndaquil is a mouse
Foxes/dogs are canines
Deal with it.
>>26305895
Leg stripes
the forehead lines are the sulfur symbol
and aren't cats banned from the zodiac by default?
Something I've noticed zodiacfags like to do is to incorrectly use taxonomic classification in order to justify their arguments.
Regardless of their ability to understand basic biology, what concerns me is their inability to consider cultural understandings of animals.
The Chinese, and no culture ever, really, has mistaken or supplanted a dog with a fox. Dogs and foxes are very clearly distinct animals, with distinct roles in their cultural representation.
Almost universally, a dog is presented as loyal, and is frequently portrayed as unintelligent. Almost universally, a fox is presented as clever, and is frequently portrayed as treacherous. A fox does not occupy the same cultural place as a dog, in Chinese culture or in any culture.
Even in Pokemon, this is extremely apparent.
>Ninetales is portrayed as very smart and very vengeful
>Zoroark is portrayed as a trickster
>Delphox is even Psychic-type to reinforce its cleverness
>Growlithe is portrayed as intensely loyal and protective
>Herdier is portrayed as loyal and helpful
>Furfrou is portrayed as a loyal guardian
No one in their right mind would confuse these two animals and their connotations. It goes directly against any Zodiac theme to have a fox be the dog.
>>26305895
1. you didn't address the point of my post at all
2. there's no reason litten has to keep its stripes on evolution evolve.
3. for all you know it could become a fucking striped hyena or something, its not as though pokemon never change drastically as they evolve
>>26305920
But if Cyndaquil is a mouse because of its species name, Charmander is 100% just a lizard.
>>26305917
>>26305919
.....yeah, I'm sure Gamefreak is going to turn the stripped feline into a fish XDDD!!!!
Your denial is strong. When Litten's final tiger evolution is revealed, there's going to be lots of you guys pretending you knew there was a pattern all along
>>26305920
Foxes are vulpines/dogs are canines
both are canidae
ftfy
>>26305937
Yeah mate, you're right. Your word is better than the makers of Pokemon. Gamefreak is wrong, not you
Gamefreak just designs these fire starters in no particular fashion. It's their fault, not yours
Once again mate I apologize.
>>26305944
Even if Litten becomes a tiger, that doesn't prove the zodiac at all, since Fennekin, Charmander, and Cyndaquil still don't fit, as pointed out earlier.
>>26305944
You could not argue your way out of a paper bag. This post actually is ad hominem, by the way. Yours is as well, though.
>>26305895
>What else is kitten with stripes exactly supposed to evolve into?
A larger cat with stripes?
Meowth evolved into a larger cat.
Skitty evolved into a larger cat.
Glameow evolved into a larger cat.
Purrloin evolved into a larger cat.
Meowstic evolved into a larger cat.
How is that for a trend?
>>26305944
are you missing the point on purpose? We're talking about Gamefreak here. They turned a fish into an octopus so you can't say "rhey'll turn a striped cat into a tiger" with 100% certainty
>>26305971
See: every post on this thread about why Fennekin is not a fucking dog.
>>26305781
and
>>26305924
are good examples.
Question for the deniers: When Litten's evolution is revealed to be a large car with stripes, will you still deny?
"MERE COINCIDENCE"
>>26305954
Charmander's species is classified as "lizard", as implied by my post, no need to go on a passive-aggressive tangent.
>>26305994
>a large car with stripes, will you still deny?
>>26305999
Why would Gamefreak think another canine could represent another canine?
Gamefreak are just idiots, because that's too creative. It's almost like they are artist.
It needs to be a dog and not just a canine
>>26305994
Stop moving the goalposts because you can't make a coherent argument in favor of your points.
>>26306014
Tell me when you're doing being upset so we can discuss this like civilized adults.
>>26305994
Yes, because all of the Zodiac animals are extremely culturally common animals and none of them are aquatic, so it's not unlikely at all that some of the fire starters (Torchic, Chimchar, Tepig, and potentially Litten) happen to match up. Just look at how many other monkey and pig pokemon we have, for example. Mankey, Aipom, the elemental monkeys, Swinub, Spoink...
However, Cyndaquil, Fennekin, and Charmander don't match up which is why the pattern is wrong. It really is just mere coincidence.
>>26305994
yes, cat is not part of the zodiac - there's actually a whole story about it. Maybe you should do some research.
>>26305994
>>26305944
>>26305826
>>26305548
These are all ad hominem, btw.
>>26306021
>>26306022
I've already explained the case with Zard and Phlosion. I'll explain it again.
It's a coincidence that Zard fits in the zodiac. Gamefreak had no idea the series would be so successful, so there was no established pattern. Gen 2 used to be called Pokemon 2, the sequel. Once again, it's just s coincidence that Cyndaquil is called the Mouse Pokemon. The Zodiac pattern was never established until Gen 3.
As for Fennekin....Let me explain: Gamefreak is a creative, artistic company. They design pocket monsters. They're artist. They take creative liberties. They make things unique, which includes substituting one canine with another canine. That's what artist do -- they be creative
Do you understand?
Hypothetical: Litten does not evolve into a tiger. It is blatantly not a tiger and no reasonable argument can be made as such. Would you still support the Zodiac theory because a cat is close enough, or would you abandon it?
>>26306014
"hey anon, check out this cool electric ox"
"that's not an ox"
"Why would Gamefreak think another bovidae could represent another bovidae?
Gamefreak are just idiots, because that's too creative. It's almost like they are artist.
It needs to be an ox and not just a bovidae"
>>26306053
>As for Fennekin....Let me explain: Gamefreak is a creative, artistic company. They design pocket monsters. They're artist. They take creative liberties. They make things unique, which includes substituting one canine with another canine. That's what artist do -- they be creative
So gamefreak decided to make Chimchar, Torchic, and Tepig as on the nose as possible, with 2 of them even being based on well-known Chinese legends and another being based on a specific Chinese breed of chicken, but they decided for Fennekin to be very distinct from a dog both culturally and biologically? Great reasoning.
>>26306053
What a convenient premise, it wraps everything up with a nice little bow and can be neither proven nor disproven, and yet still has to use flimsy justifications for one of the remaining problems.
>>26306061
First all,let me state that I used to be anti-zodiac. At this stage, it's fairly obvious Gamefreak either
1) planned it all along
2) knows it's a meme and now just accepts it
But...
It depends on how close Litten's final evo is. If it's another cat, then yes, because it's too close; Gamefreak is a creative, artistic company that would put a "spin on things" like putting a cat monster where a tiger.
>>26306076
>>26306081
You realize Pokemon are monsters imagined by 40 year old Japanese men? They take creative spins on concepts. It's called being an artist. It's how they make their paycheck
So there is only 5 gens of zodiac starters left?
>>26306105
4. The fire cat just was revealed...oh wait...mere coincidence!
>>26306087
>You realize Pokemon are monsters imagined by 40 year old Japanese men? They take creative spins on concepts. It's called being an artist. It's how they make their paycheck
Except it's not a "creative spin", it's just flat-out wrong. A fox is not a dog. The chinese zodiac does not use canine or canid or dog-like or "fox or dog" or anything else - it uses dog. If it's not a dog, it's not a dog. As a fox is actually very far away from a dog, not like a wolf which is VERY closely related. For reference, a fox and a dog are as related to each other as an orangutan is to a human, or a goat or sheep is to an ox. And that last part is especially damning since it blows the entire zodiac theory out of the water, as both ox and sheep/goat are zodiac animals, so if one counts for either of them, which it must by the same reasoning that a fox counts as a dog, then the zodiac cannot be fully completed.
Furthermore, you still haven't explained why Gamefreak would make Torchic, Tepig, and Chimchar as obvious as possible but make Fennekin so "creative".
>>26306087
That "argument" is so flawed to the point it can't even be called an argument rather than just random conjecture. Honestly I'm getting tired of this, so you keep holding on to your theories, I will keep mine, and we will both go our separate ways.
>>26306113
I am not including it until the final evo is confirmed. They could do an oshawott on us.
>>26306113
oh yeah, the cat that totally wasn't cheated out of her spot on the zodiac by the rat...oh wait...she was
>>26306126
Gamefreak doesn't care. They're the artist and the makers.
They substituted one canine for another canine.
Be angry at them, not me.
>>26306127
You're always welcome to admit the pattern and join the club. Feels good man
FOXES AREN'T DOGS
>>26306153
>Gamefreak doesn't care. They're the artist and the makers.
>They substituted one canine for another canine.
>Be angry at them, not me.
Once again, you fail to understand why this is a shit argument. You can just anything as anything if you just say Gamefreak got "creative".
For example, Tepig isn't a pig, it's a mouse or a rabbit.
>long ears
>tail with a ball on the end like marill and azumarill
>long snout a la mice
>both mammals, which is close enough.
What, you're saying it looks like a pig? No, that's ridiculous. It's a mouse and game freak just got creative.
>>26306206
.....dude.
It's a game about elemental monsters. Gamefreak are artist. They put unique twists on things. Foxes are canines. Close enough, so it works artistically
>>26306187
foxes are dogs.
>>26306222
WELL....Gamefreak are idiots for thinking they could put another canine in the canine spot of the zodiac. Why....Do they think they're being creative or something?
These guys are horrible artist, because in my world, everything must be rigid and stale.
>>26306222
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulpes
Vulpes is a genus of the Canidae. The members of this genus are colloquially referred to as true foxes, meaning they form a proper clade. The word ‘fox’ occurs on the common names of species. True foxes are distinguished from members of the genus Canis such as dogs, wolves, coyotes, and jackals by their smaller size (5-11 kg) and flatter skulls.[2] They have black, triangular markings between their eyes and nose, and the tips of their tails are often a different color from the rest of their pelts. The typical lifespan for this genus is between 2 and 4 years, but can reach up to a decade.[2]
>True foxes are distinguished from members of the genus Canis such as dogs, wolves, coyotes, and jackals by their smaller size (5-11 kg) and flatter skulls
>True foxes are distinguished from [...] dogs
>>26306254
Why would Gamefreak wanna be creative and change it around a bit?
LOL...stupid video game makers! Next time they need to put a REAL dog in that spot!!!
>>26306268
>foxes are dogs
>no they aren't, here's why
>LOL who cares Gamefreak can do what they want
nice goalpost moving
>>26306268
Serious and off-topic question, feel free to not answer, but how old are you?
>>26306219
You're missing the point. You can justify anything with "gamefreak are artists, they just got creative" or "foxes and dogs are distantly related so its close enough". Families are very broad, and there are very few potential fire-starter animals that don't share a family with one of the Zodiac animals.
Insects and other arthropods are out, since those aren't very appealing for marketing. Aquatic animals are out for obvious reasons. Really all you have left that I can think of is most reptiles and birds and a couple of mammals (bats and elephants). and since mammals tend to be very popular animals, those tend to be the obvious ones to go to for marketing purposes, hence why every gen except 1 and 3 has had at least one mammalian starter., and why the number of mammalian starters only seems to be growing. 1 didn't have any because the games were originally made for a japanese audience and japanese kids of the day were more interested in giant reptiles and bugs than furry animals (and guess what all the gen 1 starters are - giant reptiles). Gen 3 isn't so explainiable but still it's the only outlier.
Essentially, my point is that all the zodiac animals are very common animals in culture, so it's not unusual at all that some of them happen to match up with the starter pokemon. Some of them don't, and that's why the theory is broken. If you want to stretch and say that Fennekin, Charmander, Cyndaquil and potentially Litten still fit because they're close enough, then you've made it to the point where just about anything that could conceivably be a fire starter will fit, which makes the zodiac theory unfalsifiable. If a theory is unfalsifiable, then it goes out the window., because no matter what evidence pops up to prove Zodiacfags wrong they will always just shift the goalposts.
