What's so bad about Evasion in competitive play again when attacks like Aerial Ace exist?
>>26210348
Even stallfags have some shame. Evasionfags are true scum.
>>26210362
this
>>26210362
>>26210369
Just whirlwind you goofs.
Because they're poorly distributed and generally have a low base power. I don't think anybody genuinely enjoys playing against evasion, and it's a playstyle that relies totally on luck instead of skill.
those moves are too weak to kill bulkmons like Chansey that spam evasion
>>26210362
>Yes, just stand there while I just punch you.
>>26210348
Several reasons.
1. Attacks that never miss do far too little damage. Aerial Ace and Swift and Shock Wave aren't going to do shit against a Chansey that has crazy HP, defenses, and Softboiled or whatever its called.
2. It's over-centralizing. Forcing 'mons to run a set of moves to counter just one (1) stat buff would make the meta pretty obnoxious and boring. Before you say anything comparing it to stealth rocks, SR isn't an auto-win most of the time, and while I do believe SR should be nerfed in some capacity, it isn't nearly as a big a problem as evasion would be.
3. Its still up to chance. You might argue that one buff to evasion doesn't increase chance to miss all that much, but if you miss and then a second one goes up, then a third, its all over due to the reasons described in reason #1.
the reality is that evasion could be balanced but they need to add more solutions to it
things like evasion and baton pass and swagger all have solutions but when you legalize them all it requires each team to have a solution for all of them
and then options become too limited.
the easier solution would be to weaken evasion in general so that it wouldn't become a death knell.
>>26210348
Because Evasion is annoying, draws out battles, and makes battles luck based. Moves like Arial Ace do not have the power to wallbreak, meaning an evasive wall is pretty much unbreakable. Imagine trying to punch through a Dusclops or Lugia with only a BP 60 move at your disposal. That is why Evasion clause exists.
>>26210348
There's already so much to take into consideration, and moves like Aerial Ace suck. Also, it makes the game completely luck dependent.
Super bulky pokemon like Chansey can get Double Team too. If only super frail pokemon like Dugtrio got it, then it probably wouldn't be a problem.
just hyperspace fu-
>hoopa u is banned
wow thanks zarel
>>26210406
i had never really thought about that. that would be cool. giving evasion to a limited number of pokemon could allow something like accelgor to have a niche.
but no they have to give it to everything....just like toxic. why gamefreak.
What if critical hits pierced evasion like they pierce defense buffs? Now Frost Breath and that fighting move are effectively 90BP versions of those no-miss moves, at the cost of some base miss chance.
>>26210399
Hone Claws would see a major increase in usage.
>>26210425
Toxic, Stealth Rock, and Scald are all fine moves that need to have their distribution cut way back. I wish Gamefreak would figure out a way to completely remove attacks from a Pokemon's movepool next gen.
>>26210389
>You might argue that one buff to evasion doesn't increase chance to miss all that much
+1 evasion reduces hit chance by 25%.
>>26210348
Stall is cancer enough, and you want to give them even more power? are you mad?
>>26210479
We just need another air gap between generations.
>>26210389
Toxic delivered by a poison type never misses so use that to kill shit
OH NO! A 60 BP MOVE THAT I CAN EASILY RECOVER FROM! WHATEVER SHALL I DO?
Is evasion a balanced mechanic? yes
are you a dick for using it? also yes.
It's true that the game has provided a lot of counterplay to evasion. Haze resets stats, the Keen Eye ability ignores evasion, never-miss moves in Aura Sphere, Aerial Ace, Shock Wave, and the big one, Sacred Sword, all exist as well as others.
the problem is that people don't want to dedicate 1 of their 6 slots to countering evasion. Your hardcore competitive player would deem that "restricting" (while ignoring that you pretty much have slots dedicated to Defog, Rapid Spin, Hazard setting, etc but that's an argument for another day).
Honestly, just making the big "never-miss" moves like Aura Sphere and Sacred Sword more widely distributed would be great. And in XY, the introduction of Sacred Sword on Aegislash was amazing, as it took a big steaming pile of shit on minimize Chansey in the Battle Spot.
But all the counterplay and methods to bypass evasion are offset by the fact that evasion just is not fun at all to go up against. Those playing against it are just annoyed that you're being so cheap and those using it know they're just abusing probability chances to cheese out a win, not actually relying on predictive or thoughtful play.
I personally don't mind evasion nowadays since Aegislash, Mega Lucario and others exist to stop it while being overall excellent mons in their own right, so it never feels like a wasted slot to just dedicate to countering evasion.
But all in all, if they just made Aura Sphere as accessible as Focus Blast, things would be a lot better, but truly great evasion-ignoring moves have a pretty shitty distribution.
>>26210348
Because people tend to not like it when their turn based strategy game is turned into a game of dice.
>>26210533
? Sause?
>>26210540
I'd post memes, but that's just me.
>>26210675
Or you could just Whirlwind/Roar.
>>26210348
The lack of perfect-hit moves that deal reliable damage.
>magical leaf
>swift
>aerial ace
>aura pulse or whatever the fuck it's called
simply not enough to justify it.
if you have a technician pokemon aerial ace aint a problem
>>26211399
Out of 700+ pokemon, only like 10 or so have technician, and not all of them can even learn aerial ace.
>>26211423
That sounds like a personal problem.
>>26210552
>>26211451
It's an over-centralization problem, not a personal one.
And even then, technician aerial ace still isn't gonna do shit to minimize Chansey.
>>26211423
As opposed to the 4 pokemon who can viably rapid spin and the 3 pokemon with defog that won't get bootyblasted?
There's far worse cancer than Evasion.
>>26211476
Evasion is bullshit, but undercover uranium is bullshit too. Both need to be overhauled.
>>26210388
There are a lot of things that don't make sense in a game where you catch magical animals that have the power to level a city.
Tell me one nevermiss move from any pokemon that can break through a metagross' or aegislash's sub
I thought hit chances were capped at 1/3 even with -6 Accuracy hitting a +6 Evasion.
It has also been weakened with Keen Eye and the buff of Toxic.
Still a game of dice, but not as ridiculous as it could potentially be.
>>26210389
Technician Aerial Ace Scyther/Scizor, or Technician Magic Leaf Roserade are good options(?
>>26210479
They said they fixed the transport for gen 1 mons to S/M. Also, they've implied mechanics are going to get an overhaul, which makes sense considering that transporting gen 1 mons is really hard without some kind of overhaul.
Maybe this is their chance to fix a lot of shit.
>>26210544
>Keen Eye ability ignores evasion
it ignores accuracy drops and not evasion
>>26211520
>Keen Eye
Anon why
>>26210389
>Forcing 'mons to run a set of moves to counter just one
I get what you're saying, I've heard a lot of anons say this about numerous Pokemon. You have to realize this game was made with the intention of there being no perfect team. There's not one beat all team, you're always going to have a chink in your armor.
>>26211493
>God Creates the Universe
>Creation starts throwing balls at said god until god is sealed and under the creation's thrall
>>26211580
Something something fuck yeah humanity
>>26211549
That's fucking racist dude.
Also, there's no real counter for a blissey/chansey with a lot of evasion boosts up. It just makes walls more wall.
To counter it, you need a 'mon that has a solid move that can ignore evasion and can counter stalls at the same time. And even then, you can still fall victim to a coin toss or the wall you are trying to break with a 'mon never meant to break walls.
>>26211605
I think the only technician user that can break walls and learn Aerial Ace is Scizor
>>26211580
>Pokemon sums up the life, death, and rebirth of Jesus in a 15 minute battle.
>>26211605
Is Vital Throw worth bothering with?
>>26211605
Kek, racist
But seriously, what about mist or whirlwind? Toxic always hits if the user is a poison type, you could stall it out.
It's a really cheap tactic and obviously assholes use it but it can be avoided.
>>26211549
>CHINK
>>26210348
Average amount of turns in a singles game is lets say 50.
You miss 1 move that's 1/50 of your turns down the toilet. You miss 10 moves and that's a fifth of your game gone.
"Skip a turn" rng is pure cancer.
>>26211729
As far as minimize Chansey is concerned, Toxic is nothing.I hate Chansey.
>>26211744
Sacred sword fucks chansey
>>26211537
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 109-129 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 145-172 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Technician Roserade Magical Leaf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 64-76 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
I have a mega-metagross running meteor mash, zen headbutt, power up punch and double team.
I send it out on a pokemon you have that can't damage it in any significant way and use double team while you switch.
What do you do.
>Toxic beats evasion now guys.
Steel type.
>I'll just send in a phazer!
It'll get punched in the face guaranteed. Not a good situation.
>I'll use haze!
You still get punched in the face.
>I'll use feint attack!
Which will do fuckall damage. Even the strongest of feint attacks from a weavile doesn't bonk this titan.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Feint Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 172-203 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Metagross obviously KO's in return, with its boosting move no less.
>I'll stall it out?
Power up punch.
>Quagsire!
Bingo you found one pokemon that can handle it congrats, your prize is running a shitmon in OU and running the risk of the cheeky fucker with a metagross running grass knot.
If you don't have this cheeky cunt your only solution is;
>I'll get lucky!
:^)
Bonus; clefable learns minimize.
>>26211955
>you need a 100% direct counter to something otherwise it's OP
Smogonscrub logic
That set won't do shit because Double Team is awful and you won't have the time or luck to beat anything it couldn't already beat before
>>26212016
>you won't have the luck
Is that a fact now is it?
>>26212016
It's not
>otherwise it's OP
It's
>you need to try to get rid of as much luck as possible, otherwise it's not competitive
Because if you want competitive dice rolling, there are much better games to play for that, which require much less player interaction than whoever's time you're wasting with double team, or gambling against double team.
>>26211955
>whirlwind
>>26212047
Hi do you know what phazing is
>>26212047
What happens after he kills your whirlwind/roar poke?
>>26212030
>>26212043
I don't think you've ever played with evasion if you think Double Team is ever a useful move. There's a reason it's never used, and a move that's never used doesn't add dice rolling to the game
>>26212082
What evasion moves are better? Faggot kun
>>26212047
>it gets punched in the face
Only if you can outspeed it. I'm sure there's plenty of Pokemon that can do that.
>>26212070
i don't cry and get good, faggot.
>>26211476
SR and evasion are incomparable. SR is much closer to status moves and Hell Bell/Aromatherapy.
>>26212133
So you get rekt'd, then.
A'ight
>>26211510
>what is infiltrator
>>26212159
Hazards ruin the game just as much as evasion does. Evasion can easily be bypassed and has simple counters. SR demands that you have a rapid spinner/defog on your team.
>All attacking priority moves now have perfect accuracy
>Entry hazards dissapear after 5 turns like weather
Try this on for size. How does this affect the meta?
>>26210533
Honestly with that change I don't get why they didn't lower the accuracy of Toxic. Wouldn't you think that a Poison type like Muk would pull Toxic off better than something like Vaporeon or Chansey?
A lot of you are saying that evasion is overcentralising.
That's simply not true.
Evasion is legal in VGC and no serious team uses it. Go watch some ranked battlespot, you never see anyone abusing it.
I think smogon is just too afraid of threats to the meta game that aren't actually threats at all
>>26211541
It ignores evasion starting from Gen 6. Keep up kohai.
>>26212234
>priority gets even stronger
ANON WHY
>entry hazards disappear after 5 turns
I like it because it makes sneaky pebbles less irritating, but it also makes toxic spikes/spikes kinda awful
>>26212253
>Evasion is legal in VGC and no serious team uses it
Because in doubles protect is better
>>26210389
No Guard Machamp annihilates an evasive Chansey/Blissey.
>>26212133
whirlwind and the like have negative priority you blithering twit.
>>26212234
Better yet just have all boosting wear off after 5 turns.
>>26212253
in doubles you have two pokemon to smash the cunt using minimize, two chances.
in singles it just snowballs out of control too fast.
Evasion is perfectly fine in doubles because there is so little that isn't straight offence that is viable at all.
>>26212356
>blithering twit
no u
>>26212436
Is this 2005?
Earthquake, Surf ansd all other moves that hit multiple pokemon now ignore evasion.
Maybe: every time you attack and miss after double team was used, evasion is lowered by one stage (killing one doppelganger).
>>26210533
Are there any poison types with infiltrator?
Because substitute + evasion = a bitch
>>26212379
>smash the cunt using minimize
kekked
>>26212214
You don't need a rapid spinner or a defogger unless your team has a crippling rock weakness or your linchpin is 4x weak and needs full HP.
Even if you think there are good ways to handle evasion, you have to admit that boosting evasion is pretty much the strongest form of boosting defense in the long run. Two levels of evasion reduce damage against your mon by a third, so one Minimize is about the same as 1.5 Cosmic Powers (that you can't break through by critting).
Considering how frustrating Clefable can be to fight with just Cosmic Power, you know that's not going to be fun. Add Magic Guard and your Toxic does nothing. Add Sub and even getting hit a few times is not a problem. Any perfect accuracy move that might break Chansey is walled by Clefable. And then you still have to be able to break through Double Team Gliscor and Skarmory as well.
>>26212592
Not to mention that Rocks are not usually a win condition, while Evasion totally is.
If evasion is banned for being too luck based, why isn't stuff like Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Focus Blast, etc also banned? A single miss with powerfuls moves like that can easily cost someone the game or at least set them back significantly. The same goes for crits. Pokemon already has a ton of luck-based shit, evasion wouldn't do anymore harm in that regard.
>>26212767
>Why isn't using luck-reliant moves yourself the same as forcing your opponent to rely on luck?
Come on, senpai.
>>26212818
Except both parties have to rely on luck in either situation.
Focus Blast: User-"oh shit I hope I hit" Target-"oh shit I hope it misses"
Double Team: User-"oh shit I hope I dodge" Target-"oh shit I hope I hit"
>>26210499
this x1000000000
>>26210348
Because competitivefags hate luck even though Pokemon is a luck based game. They would remove crits if they could.
Let's get away from arguing about luck for a moment. Even if you don't care how many elements of chance are in your game, Evasions is just a really strong strategy with little to stop it.
Turns are the most important resource you have in Pokémon, and a free turn can win you a game easily. Evasion generates free turns more reliably than anything else. This is why Sand Veil Garchomp was so good in Gen IV and V, just get it in under Sand and wait for your free Sub or whatever.
Just think about all the free turns a Gliscor with Double Team can generate. Use Sub/Roost/Double Team to basically get setup opportunities against anything if you can force a switch, which is easy with your bulk and immunities.
No need to worry about status effects due to Poison Heal, and you tank all no-miss moves no problem. What Keen Eye Pokémon is even a threat? Sneasle? Hitmonchan? You can Haze, but that just leaves a Gliscor with a Sub on the board. You can Whirlwind or Roar, but only if the opponent has Pokémon left, and it will give the opponent two free turns (one to switch, one to phaze, since those moves have -5 priority).
Meanwhile, Gliscor can run Toxic, Guillotine or Fissure in its last slot and pick its counters. OHKO moves are also moves that should be banned not because they are luck-reliant, but because they are too strong. At one point, OHKO moves were mistakenly unbanned on Smogon and people using them quickly reached the top of the ladder. With all the free turns you get, you should be statistically able to KO 2-3 Pokémon with your OHKO moves no problem. Remember, those moves have a Scald's burn chance to flat-out faint, and everyone knows how common those are.
In my opinion, not framing the discussion about Evasion to be about luck and competitiveness, but just focussing on how good it is and how many broken sets it can produce makes much more sense. Never mind that on top of that, it is a frustrating mechanic that nobody really likes to face.
>>26212198
Now, how many Pokemon with Infiltrator learn a perfect accuracy move?
evasion+ is too strong, accuracy- is not
>>26211541
It does ignore evasion boosts though.
>>26212563
Crobat
Balance solution: tie accuracy and evasion together. Any move that boosts your evasion also lowers your accuracy, and vice versa.
>>26211483
>undercover uranium
what
>>26210479
There's nothing wrong with Toxic being available to everyone. Scald is learned only by water types and like 5 other mons.
>>26211462
That's pretty fucking stupid.
