So now Greninja is banned from OU for some weird reason?
I mean for fuck sakes the fucking frog was really easy to deal with and he wasnt even the most used Pokemon of OU. The idea that because of Greninja's coverage you cant deal with him is absurd. The guy suffers greatly from the 4 move syndrome. It seems this days that most Smogonites just ban for the sake of banning.
>>25416790
>The guy suffers greatly from the 4 move syndrom
No, it doesn't.
>>25416797
Yes it does. As soon as you now what set it carries you can easily dispatch him. He is not broken at all and it seems smogonites simply need to get gud.
>>25416790
>Greninja getting the boot
Wasn't this old news though?
>>25416804
All Greninja needs are Ice Beam and Dark Pulse. The rest of the moveset is entirely up to you (though Low Kick is common), and its counters are determined by what set it's running.
If the rest of your team has trouble with Fairies, you run Gunk Shot.
It got to the point that people were using Porygon2, Empoleon, and Tentacruel just to deal with Greninja. And they aren't even good checks, because Low Kick fucks P2 and Empoleon over, and Extrasensory destroys Tentacruel.
There was no one Pokemon that could counter every Greninja set. Greninja made every playstyle that isn't stall unviable.
>>25416804
>As soon as you now what set it carries you can easily dispatch him
And unless you're running a stall team, you can't scout Greninja's moveset. Nothing on Hyper Offense or Balance teams can switch in on it.
It is banned because it's anti-meta, and smogonites pretend Greninja has 10 moveslots and you can't sacrifice a pokemon to get a check on the field unarmed.
If you ever play without smogon the team you realise that landorus and Keldeo 2KO or cripple most shit, you're forced to run dedicated counters. They are way more centralizing than greninja, and greninja can be killed by lesser shit, but it's not in their vision of pokemon multiplayer where you have to only run their official pokemons.
I like greninja because it doesn't shit on everything, it just shits perfectly on smogon favorites. It would bring way more diversity in the meta but that's not "healthy" right, instead of having a lot of variety and strategies we have to play rock/paper/scissor with only the eternal same 20 monsters.
>>25416790
The problem was never that it was to strong. It was that it had to much control. Teams had to be build in order to deal with Greninja specifically. Due to it's ability and movepool multiple Pokemon needed to be able to handle it. Basically everything was being centered around Greninja, and it needed to banned because of it. That being said Ubers certainly isn't a good place for it, but that's a completely different matter.
>>25416982
Yeah Smogon is retarded.
A simple Borderline between ubers and ou would work fine.
They are stupid though...
>>25416980
>It would bring way more diversity in the meta
It didn't bring diversity, it restricted it.
You couldn't use any playstyle other than stall against Greninja.
When people are using garbage like Empoleon, Porygon2, and Tentacruel just because of one Pokemon, there's a problem.
>>25417014
Ubers is a banlist first and a tier second.
If a Pokemon is too broken for OU, then it goes to Ubers. How well it will perform in Ubers doesn't matter.
>tfw Smogon is the only place to play competitive Pokemon w/o needing to breed like a madman
>tfw to play Pokemon I have to agree with the BS rules of Smogon
Seriously we should have our own /vp/ server w/o any of the retarded smogon rules.
>>25417038
>when people aren't using smogon's OU : the team, there's a problem
>>25417096
There is no "OU: The Team".
OU has over 50 viable Pokemon. If you don't like it, go play one of the lower tiers, or play Battle Spot. No one is forcing you to play by Smogon's rules.
>>25416790
That greninja is soooo fluffy
>>25417113
Smogon OU is the biggest tier were you can play competitive pokemon in a simulation. Unless you want to waste time in game breeding Smogon is the only place where you will be able to play online w/o waiting 3 hours for a match.
>>25417096
While I think Greninja is kinda OP still, this is a really good point.
>>25417224
It's been done. It never lasts. People who complain about smogon are generally one of two types of people. Those who don't like playing competitive and blame the rules for the attitude and those who like competitive but are shit at it. Smogon's rules are what happens when you play a competitive format where people play whatever wins. You have to limit what is allowed or else there would only ever be one viable team.
Also, using pokemon like empoleon or porygon to check greninja doesn't work because both are bad outside of that one purpose. Empoleon is weak to many of the most common pokemon in the format and porygon let's literally anything set up on it. Scizor, bisharp, azumarill, hell even klingklang can set up on it.
And smogon doesn't just ban anti meta stuff. Fast dark types like weavil or even mega houndoom destroy a lot of the meta. Tornadus-T checks most of the meta and can function both as a fast/bulky pivot and a revenge killer.
>>25417113
If there's 50 then why do I always see the same 4 on 75% of teams. Everyone abuses the genies and le smogonbird. OU is incredibly stagnant outside of gimmick teams.
>inb4 Not as bad as VGC
VGC is worse, but smogonfags are delusional it'd they think their meta is any less interesting.
>>25417509
then play one of te other 5 official tiers or doubles or triples
you have literally no excuse
The funniest thing is that Greninja is actually the most skill intensive pokemon in the game for requiring the opponent to be skillful to predict Greninja's moveset (Which isn't even hard when you can look at Greninja's team) and requiring the player to be skillful to not get Greninja OHKO'd because of its fragile defenses.
>>25418085
There's no skill involved in using Greninja
>Hmm, my team has trouble with Fairies
>Lemme just slap a Greninja with Gunk Shot on there
>>25416790
Seriously only losers couldn't stop the frog. It's very frail, and usually gets wiped out without focus sash. If you're losing against Greninja, fix your team.
The only stuff I agree about banning would be insane baton pass plays and accuracy/evasion moves. And even then I'm skeptical. There are counter moves to minimize and double team people...
>>25416790
Dude
Greninja has been banned to Ubers for a fucking long time.
>>25418280
>There are counter moves to minimize and double team people...
None of which are good or usable for any purpose other than countering evasion.
>>25418233
>retardedly switch Greninja in on a fairy
>fairy used any fairy type move
>Greninja fainted
>>25416804
No you can't, because you have to build your whole team around every set it could carry, and it has no specific set regardless. Scouting him is way to hard. and even if you scout him properly, whos to say you hae all the Pokemon to deal with that specific set?
The mixed attacking set alone had barely and checks, and if you weren't running 1 of 2 Pokemon you had no way to beat it bar scarfers
>>25418320
>ever switching Greninja in
If you don't lead with Greninja, Greninja is your revenge sweeper.
Kill their pokemon because you outspeed 99% of OU
U-turn out/keep killing until greninja dies.
It requires no skill. You point it at the enemy team, and kill everything until either you're forced to switch out, or your greninja dies, because you're guaranteed at least one kill with it.
>>25418233
It's a dark type. You don't switch into greninja on a fairy. Instead you put poison jab on something that never runs poison jab and kill them when they think you're going to switch.
>>25417038
I am forced to run garbage like Mandibuzz and Umbreon to deal with Hoopa. Ban when?
>>25416844
Approximately year old news.
>>25418085
It doesn't matter if you can predicts its moveset if you're running anything but stall. Stalll is the only time predicting its oveset actually matters, as you would actually MAYBE have a switch in. If you didn't have either Empoleon Chansey, Porygon 2 or Tentacruel you had no way to beat it
Honestly the only thing I think that makes it truly broken was Protean.
Greninja at the moment is better starmie, should he lose that ability, he'd be far more balanced.
Of course the logic here that Smogon sees is that Kecleon isn't busted so Protean isn't the problem.
>>25418280
Um, fix your team how? When there are only like 2 things it can't beat with 4 moves? (Gunk shot, Low kick, Dark Pulse, Ice beam) beats basically everything. And forcing every team to run Porygon 2 isnt healthy because Porygon 2 isn't viable in the tier outside of checking Greninja. Not to mentionthe fact that it would make Porygon 2 over centralizing
>>25416790
I want more fatty greninja pweez:3
>>25418400
Except 90% of the tier outspeeds Hoopa...
>>25418457
no, it's that why ban protean, when future Pokemon that could have it might not be broken?
>>25418486
Doesn't matter when it has no switch ins and can deal with anything in two moves.
>>25418400
Why not krookodile/M-Aero/Hydreigon/M-Sharpedo/Sharpedo?
And those are just some of the dark types that can kill the shit out of it. If you're worried about the opponent switching, just use pursuit.
>>25418501
But thats the thing.
Lets say Kecleon did become busted when it got Protean. At that logic, banning protean would be the logical choice, but since he didn't Greninja was the primary target.
>>25418508
Hoopa beats them all except for krook (who is also garbage) if they try to switch into it.
>>25416790
All of its previous checks from X and Y lose to gunk shot and low kick.
>>25418507
Pursuit motherfucker.
Some usable cool pokemon that use pursuit:
Drapion
Zoroark
Honchkrow
Krookodile
Houndoom
Etc.
And those are the ones that just have STAB.
>>25418568
Garbage
Garbage
Garbage
Garbage
Garbage
>>25418568
Trash mon nobody runs.
Dies to Drain Punch
Dies to Gunk Shot
Trash mon that is useless besides beating hoopa
Dies to Drain Punch
>>25418550
>Switching into it
Revenge kill. Revenge killing is a 1 for 1 trade.
If you really want to switch into it, Drapion and Umbreon are two dark types that can survive its focus blast. Other than that, there are some ghost types that also learn pursuit.
>>25418280
>Using "it's frail" as an argument for an hyper offensive pokemon
Yup, makes sense.
Also if your counter to greninja is focus sash in a meta dominated by stealth rocks, you're gonna have a bad time.
>>25416804
>As soon as Greninja kills what you hoped was a counter, you can switch an actual counter in and kill it
>Going 1-for-1 as a best case scenario is good
If you cant kill something without dying to it first, it's broken.
>>25416980
>pretend Greninja has 10 moveslots
No, its not the fact that he can have Low Kick and gunk shot and Dark Pulse and Hydro pump and U-Turn and Ice beam ...... all at once; Its the threat of the fact that it CAN have any of those moves and you cant react to everything it can potentially carry at once.
A bulky fairy/steel-type that can survive a non-STAB EQ can switch in to any Tyranitar no matter what it's carrying, but Chansey cant switch into all Greninja, Azumarill can't switch into all greninja, because if its carrying the wrong move you just tossed cannon fodder in to die.
The exact same reasoning behind Proud of Its Power's ban
>>25418611
So I have to sacrifice one mon to deal with it no matter what. Sounds like no counterplay to me.
>>25418575
>>25418596
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know you guys wanted the perfect pokemon that will beat everyone. Not even hoopa does that.
Smogonfags in a nutshell.
>>25418280
>There are counter moves to minimize and double team people...
Like, Aerial Ace?
>+2 252 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 104-123 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
Nice 4-hit KO.
Find me a stronger no-miss move than Technician Scyther Aerial Ace with Swords Dance up
>>25416897
>Pokemon has a hard counter
>It's trash
>Pokemon has no hard counter
>It's too strong
>>25418662
Read the last line of their post.
>>25418647
Special Luke's Aura Sphere and Hoopa's Hyperspace Hole
easy
>>25417069
ou isnt the only smogon tier. they have a tier for vgc, they have ubers where you can use almost anything you want, they have anythinggoes for memes. theyre providing you a service by offering many diverse metagames other than the official gf sanctioned one
>>25416897
>use mach punch
>win
is it really that hard?
>>25416919
then kill it early
>>25418629
Motherfucker I just gave you two pokemon that survive its FOCUS BLAST. And those were just dark types that learn pursuit, which I figured was the easiest and best way to get rid of hoopa.
If it makes you feel any better, hoopa can't switch in on anyone with any kind of attacking power either. Your opponent is in the same boat you are.
Mega Ampharos has a garunteed 2HKO on it, while hoopa has a 1% chance to 2HKO.
Entei can 1HKO hoopa with sacred fire.
Goodra has a 2HKO on hoopa, hoopa has a 3HKO on goodra.
Gyarados has a 1HKO on hoopa.
>>25416897
>All Greninja needs are Ice Beam and Dark Pulse
You only need one of those moves
>>25418731
all you need is love
>>25416790
2015 called, it wants its controversy back.
>>25418724
Hoopa isn't broken in OU to begin with as people have already found ways to deal with on stall, like running chople/scarf ttar or mandibuzz or bulky mega sciz which beats non fire punch variants. Also, offense is all over the ladder right now which isn't kind to Hoopa. Though the mons you mentioned for beating really aren't reliable and do nothing in ou outside of potentially beating hoopa.
>>25418699
So every team now needs one of these two, or risks getting swept by evasion
>>25418802
We weren't talking about OU anon.
We were talking about hoopa in UU.
>>25418802
Ssshhhh, /vp/ still thinks John Smogon only plays pure Stall.
>>25418818
Machamp and Pidgeot also have moves that can't miss
Clear Smog can't miss
>>25417471
this is the most pompous shit i've ever read. all smogon is is stall teams. anything that trumps stall is banned. you guys should just get good.
>>25416790
What the fuck is that OP image
>>25418829
Oh, my mistake then.
Also, didn't regular hoopa just drop out of UU by usage? Lmao
>>25418896
You don't know what you're talking about anon. If that were the case, manaphy and Hoopa U would have been banned from OU a long time ago. Pretty obvious you don't play or else you would know the OU ladder atm is literally offense: the metagame.
>>25418829
I was talking about Hoopa U though.
No switch ins, not healthy.
>>25418965
Oh.
The original anon I was replying to was talking about the regular hoopa, my bad. I wouldn't know shit about unbound.
>>25418927
Did it? I mean, it makes sense, considering revenge killing it is easy as shit, on top of the fact anything killing it is easy as shit.
>>25417509
Smogon makes the tiers; players make the team. The top four pokemon are strictly the best, so people build teams with them. What don't you get?
>>25416790
I don't even give two shits about what thos faggots on smogon ban because I barely even play this competetively anymore so I'm kind of out of touch. But have those faggots really banned FUCKING Greninja? I literally never had any problems at all when I randomly played online for once in a while, you can't fucking tell me that it is one of the most dangerous Pokemon out there because it simply isn't true and I say that as a casual
>>25417471
>empoleon or porygon to check greninja doesn't work because both are bad outside of that one purpose.
Not even him but you have 0 clue what you're talking about on that front when they're both extremely viable tanks even for OU.
The rest of what you're saying is true but that phrase right there isn't.
haven't played competitive in a while. How would a monotype bug team best handle greninja? I don't know the typical sets they carry
>>25417509
>Everyone abuses the genies and le smogonbird
since you're still bitching about talonflame i can tell you havent played in a long fucking time
>>25418300
>clear smog
>>25418400
>mandibuzz
>garbage
>>25419158
I could be using an infinitely more useful defogger but nope I have to use mandi to deal with le tricky genie of balance.
>>25418233
Okay Greninja vs fairy
Well you can assume it has gunk shot so either predict on the miss and poison type and attack accordingly or switch to something that eats poison like steel
>wow so op please git good
>>25416919
Can't Milotic switch into him?
>>25419051
I maybe have been a bit harsh, but I'm not that far off. Both are excellent walls, but not in OU. Porygon has no niche over Chansey except for trick room. In every other case, Chansey is far better at every role Porygon can do. Empoleon can't safely switch in on keldeo, azumarill, lando, torn-t, thundurus, tyranitar, garchomp etc. That does not make a good a good wall. Also, it lacks proper recovery. I love empoleon, but it is not good in OU.
>>25419634
How's my trio of walls fair in OU? Florgres for special attacks, Skarmory for physical, and Milotic for anything one of the others may have trouble with
>>25417835
I actually do playUU and PUsince they're the more fun metas. This thread's topic is over a ban in OU, and I think OU is stagnant and boring as fuck.
>>25419010
Sorry anon, I just like it when every match doesn't feel like the same fucking thing over and over and people can be creative with their teambuilding. If I wanted to fight the same team of 6 repeatedly for hours on end, OU can satisfy that.
>>25419634
Porygon can be used as a bulky late-game sweeper when setup right.
>>25416804
And how do you find out what set it's carrying?
By having it wreck something.
Balanced.
>>25420736
Better than (mega) slowbro?
>>25421493
Not better than mega bro, but you don't have to use your mega slot. He also handles special hits better.
Only downside is knock off and no resists.
>>25419021
>I literally never had any problems at all when I randomly played online for once in a while
>I say that as a casual
I'm a casual and I played casuals online, therefore Greninja isn't broken.
Brilliant resoning anon.
And you never said when you played online. ORAS made it broken.
>>25418541
Smogon's is against complex bans because they cause a cluster fuck of "well what if this is happening"
Same reason they banned Blazekin rather then just banning speed boost. Banning speed boost would mean no Ninjask or Scolipede.
>>25420533
how does it feel knowing you get bootyblasted by magnezone
Hes been banned for a pretty good while, OP... but I have to agree, he wasnt bannable, he was just a threat like tyranitar. He isnt even as big a problem as m-alakazam and m-alakazam isnt that hard to get around, you just have to be prepared for it. Like a threat.
>>25422202
And ive said this before and ill say it again
Send out something to bait a grass fighting or bug move. They usually carry low kick, grass knot isnt unheard of, and u-turn wont really help but ive seen signal beams more than once. Easy solution send in talonflame for that priority brave bird. Of course you would need toplaythe game to cover and predict swaps.
>>25422101
>ORAS made it broken
casual as fuck
This what what Smogonsheep posts look like to me
BAAAA BAAAA BAAAA BAAAA
What's it like not being able to think for yourselves? To be told what Pokemon/moves you can/can't use?
>>25422361
>send in
You see that's the problem, at that point, something has already died
>>25416790
Smogon mentality. They don't like it, they ban,
You should check out the official format, VGC. 6v6 singles is heavily outdated.
>>25418280
>It's frail it so it's not broken at all!
You heard it on /vp/ first, folks, Deoxys attack for NU
>>25416790
>So now Greninja is banned from OU for some weird reason?
yeah uhm like a year ago or so?
>>25418818
Roar and Whirlwind have infinite accuracy perfectly, as does Toxic when used by a poison type
Evasion is still nasty to deal with, but Gamefreak is starting to address it at least
>>25423916
>as does Toxic when used by a poison type
TIL
>>25423423
both smogon and vgc are horrible though
>>25423423
6v6?
>>25422178
>muh smogon doesn't like complex bans
Baton pass says hello.
>>25416790
>Super Duper Sumos.jpg
>>25417509
VGC sucks way worse than OU. Pull up the last stats from VGC and the latest stats for OU. There is far more variance in the latter and you know it. It sucks but that's because Pokemon is a mess as a game. They do not take the time out to try to balance after the initial release, save for introducing stronger things later on.
You're a liar if you think that OU is "less interesting" than VGC. And on top of that, Talonflame has seen a lot less use lately. Quite crying wolf when you've got sheep skin draped over you as you speak.
>>25423950
FDZ
>>25416790
>Smogon wants to change the rules of a game they don't understand
>Actually they think somehow they are fixing everything
>Still today I have to build my team in other to counter most used Pokemon in OU
This: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-01/ou-1825.txt
>>25422181
Didn't often see him back when I played but yeah I guess you're right. I don't think any of those 3 could switch into him. But I think my 3 sweepers would be able to handle him.
>>25416790
>4 moveslot syndrome
>when he literally gets STAB on all of his moves
>and all he needs are attacking moves
(you)but also sage because fuck your face
