Main anime battles
>battles are just an exchange of moves
>no strategies
>trainers rely on the power of friendship to win
>makes no sense. NFE pokemon can beat fully evolved pokemon
Origins battles
>mindgames
>trainers use intricate strategies to win
>actually follows the game logic. Unevolved pokemon can't defeat fully evolved pokemon
Okay.
>>25075820
>>actually follows the game logic. Unevolved pokemon can't defeat fully evolved pokemon
But that's not game logic.
>>25075820
Giovanni's nfe Rhyhorn beat some of Red's Pokemon and ignored Jolteon's ability
Let's not act like Origins was any better than the main anime
>>25075878
>rhyhorn
>nfe
...no?
>>25075878
>rhyhorn
>nfe
...no?
>actually follows the game logic. Unevolved pokemon can't defeat fully evolved pokemon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oehHCaKorXY
>actually follows the game logic
>>25075820
oh are you saying the opposite of what's true for comedic effect
>>25075820
>makes no sense. NFE pokemon can beat fully evolved pokemon
Because the NFE Pokemon are smaller and faster. The fully-evolved ones are bigger and slower.
Ash's Turtwig was a speed demon, but once it evolved it lost its speed and had to change its fighting style.
>>25075881
>Rhydon
...yes?
>>25076114
Rekt
>>25075820
>mindgames
>trainers use intricate strategies to win
>actually follows the game logic. Unevolved pokemon can't defeat fully evolved pokemon
I loved the mindgame, the intricate strategy and the game logic that was Charizard one-shotting a Rhydon with Seismic Toss after a Rhyhorn one-shot five of Red's Pokémon, including a Jolteon (whose ability is Volt Absorb) with Thunderbolt.
>>25076086
Except that still doesn't make any sense.
A child can't run faster than an adult just because it's lighter. Also if you want something objective, Torterra has a higher speed stat than Turtwig. That's just typical ashnime bullshit like usual.
Origin's wasn't the best either, had flaws, but it was a hell of a lot better than the ashnime.
>>25076513
>child can't run faster than an adult
you have never babysat or been around children have you?
>>25076526
Assuming that both child and adult are in standard (standard, not average) human physical condition, adults run faster than children. The weight has nothing to do with it the run speed, the muscles and stride length do. In general most creatures get stronger as they grow older.
Weight is a limiting factor on speed, sure, but the power generation is more important. Same reason an M1-Abrams can go 45 mph despite being 60 tons.
>>25075820
>battles are just an exchange of moves
>no strategies
there is a reason why DP is the best season out there and the final battle between ash and paul proves you wrong
>>25076012
There was no Piplup in that video.
>>25075820
>mindgames
>trainers use intricate strategies to win
That's literally every battle in XY. even the filler ones.
>battles are just an exchange of moves
>no strategies
>trainers rely on the power of friendship to win
>makes no sense. NFE pokemon can beat fully evolved pokemon
That's literally origins. Red Vs Blue was practically a fucking slideshow until charizard vs blastoise. Which was won via power of friendship
>>25076562
A sumo wrestler doesn't run faster than a child, which is what Torterra would be. Either way, none of that shit applies to Origins. You literally reversed the descriptions. Origins wasn't intricate strategies, it was just exchanging moves. The ashnime is the one that uses strats. Neither follows game logic so that makes Origin the one with worse battles.
>>25076594
that awful animation
wasnt it supposed to be good? you lied to me vp
>>25076594
First off, I'm not OP. I didn't think Origins had some great, deep combat or anything. I just think the ashnime was shittier than Origins' combat.
Second, a Sumo Wrestler isn't the standard model for a human. It's heavily modified. Torterra is a standard model for Turtwig. Besides, it's stats are listed, we have an objective measurement saying that Torterra is faster than Turtwig.
>>25075820
>actually follows the game logic. Unevolved pokemon can't defeat fully evolved pokemon
you didn't even watch Origins, did you
>>25075878
>Abilities in gen I.
Or
>What is Tangled Feet.
>>25076642
>FRLG character designs in gen I
>Mega Evolution in gen I
>>25076621
>standard model of human
You're not even trying.
Is this truely the mind of a redfag
>>25075820
>game logic
Rhyhorn in AG when?
>>25076114
are you purposely forgetting about rhystomp?
>>25076658
Don't forget about Haunter's Shadow Punch (gen 3 move).
>>25075820
The only mindgames that were used in Origins was the carefully processed way the marketers and writers managed to trick everyone into watching a disguised Mega Zard X pandering advertisement
>>25076621
>I just think the ashnime was shittier than Origins' combat.
>Ash's pokemon gets thrown into a tree
>"kick the apples at it as a diversion"
>gym leader uses future sight
>"Grab them and throw them into their attack"
>stick bird to ground and wail on em
>boost speed in trick room and nail em when it fades
vs
Use attack
Use attack
Use attack
gee clearly origins is superior.
>>25076621
Realstically, a 7 foot tall 683 lb tortoise is going to be slower than a 1 foot tall 22 lb one.
>>25075820
>Red literally just throws Pokéballs at Giovanni
>this is a good battle
>>25076661
Nigga, you're seriously trying to tell me a fucking sumo wrestler is what a standard human adult looks like?
Get the fuck out.
>>25076723
Considering the ashnime invented thunder armor, yeah. Origins is better.
I'd rather watch just normal, standard combat than some hackneyed friendship>strategy crap anyday.
>>25076746
Well we're not speaking realistically. We're talking about Pokemon. Realistically a tortoise can't shoot lasers either, but these are super powered creatures.
Again, we have objective measurements of their stats. You dont really have an argument here. Torterra is, for a fact, faster.
>>25076773
Thunder Armor is basically just Guts
>>25076723
Also:
> Using ground to weaken electrical attack
> Electric terrain? Let's use rain dance and discharge the electricity
> Using Flare Blitz underground to wipe out Toxic spikes
> Counter shield
Don't forget about game mechanics used in anime:
> Sunny Day+ Chlorophyl
> Sleep Talk to counter sing
> Trick Room
>>25076773
>Considering the ashnime invented thunder armor, yeah. Origins is better.
That was over a 4 or 5 years ago. fuck off.
>standard human
There is no standard human. and the logic follows that if torterra weighs multiple times more than turtwig it's no wonder turtwig is more agile. like a child with a sumo
>>25076773
>Torterra is, for a fact, faster.
In the games.
>>25076799
Over 10 years ago, even.
>>25076787
If it was supposed to be Guts, they should've called it Guts then, instead of making it retarded.
I have a hard time believing that, though.
>>25076799
>That was over a 4 or 5 years ago. fuck off.
So because a pile of shit is old, it no longer stops being shit?
If the XY anime fixed all of these problems and was actually good, I'd be willing to overlook that, but as it stands it's only mildly less shit. It's just the same old stuff with more flashiness.
>There is no standard human.
The fuck are you on about. Do you even know what the term "standard" means?
All animals have a tendency towards a certain level of muscularity and fat levels. We're built with balance in mind. Sumo wrestlers only get that way by going out of their to radically change their physique. It's the same reason a body builder isn't "standard form". Human's only vary so much because we've altered our surroundings and lifestyles like crazy. Even with all of that, there's still a tendency towards a specific figure.
>and the logic follows that if torterra weighs multiple times more than turtwig it's no wonder turtwig is more agile.
No it doesn't. Seriously, this is just physics 101. A rocket weighs a shit ton more than a guy on a bike, but that rocket goes a shit ton faster. Weight isn't the only determinate factor here.
These are super powered creatures. Again. We have an objective measurement of their stats. Torterra is, for a fact, faster than Turtwig.
>>25076809
>In the games.
Yeah. That's the problem we're discussing here. The anime just makes it's own rules up.
>>25076773
Turtwig: 22.5lbs / 31 speed = .726
Grotle: 213.8lbs / 36 speed = 5.94
Torterra: 683.4lbs / 56 speed = 12.2
The lower the number, the faster per pound that Pokemon is. Thanks to these calculations you can see it takes Torterra almost 13 times more exertion to move as quickly as Turtwig.
>>25076867
>If the XY anime fixed all of these problems and was actually good, I'd be willing to overlook that, but as it stands it's only mildly less shit. It's just the same old stuff with more flashiness.
It has. Meanwhile, Origins reused the ebin "Charizard defeats an opponent with Seismic Toss" from the Johto league (made more bullshit due to it being a one-hit KO this time).
>>25076867
>Yeah. That's the problem we're discussing here. The anime just makes it's own rules up.
Two different universes first off
And iirc Mega Stones weren't available in Red, Blue, Yellow, Green, Fire Red, or Leaf Green
And iirc Haunter couldn't learn Shadow Punch in Red, Blue, Yellow, and Green
>>25076867
>>I have a hard time believing that, though.
It's ability is literally Guts
That's why it was able to take all of Pikachu's electric attacks even when it was a Taillow in its ccapture episode, dumbass
>>25076867
>If the XY anime fixed all of these problems
>all of this was literally fixed the next season
Okay, is this bait?
>The fuck are you on about. Do you even know what the term "standard" means?
You missed the point jackass. Turtwig weighs significantly less compared to torterra like a child with a sumo wrestler. All this "standard human" shit is fucking stupid because humans are a random box. you could have a guy who is the standard weight run slower than a child for other circumstances like weak lungs.
>A rocket weighs a shit ton more than a guy on a bike, but that rocket goes a shit ton faster.
>A rocket being propelled with a large force is comparable to a bike being propelled by a guys legs
Are you fucking retarded son? if you were to shot the bike with the same force as the rocket it'd go farther at way faster speed. Since torterra is heavier and way more massive than turtwig it'd take significantly more force to move the beast. hence why it's slower. Do you even physics retard?
Yeah I'll never get why /vp/ defends the main anime so much while Origins was clearly better in almost every aspect, but I guess it has something to do with their never ending crusade against everything gen 1.
>>25076925
Origins was literally inferior to the main anime in every aspect except gen 1 nostalgia pandering.
>>25076934
So I was right. Thanks.
>>25076871
Are you fucking kidding me with that? Like. Holy shit. Is this bait?
Okay, that's not how the fucking stats work. You can't just take the numbers, math it around a little bit and make it work to your favor. The speed stat is just an end measurement with increments relative to it's own stat.
I mean, so what if it "tales more exertion" according to your bullshit calculations? It still does it. Consistently. Every single time. It has no effect on what we're discussing. The end all says Torterra's speed>Turtwigs speed. There's no if's and's or but's about it.
>>25076887
>Two different universes first off
Yes. This is the issue. They have source material that they deliberately defy.
Sure you can nitpick random shit here and there between the two, but the ashnime consistently takes more liberties. Also no, Mega stones weren't available in RBY, but they are canon to the universe. Also Haunter can learn Shadow Punch in FRLG which is what Origin's designs are based off of.
Not even that Origins does it perfectly either. The ashnime is just worse.
>>25076894
Yeah. No shit. It's ability is Guts. Doesn't mean it was using that. They called it Thunder Armor, and they made it work in a way that makes no god damn sense. Guts doesn't make you more resistant to damage, it makes you stronger when afflicted with status. So they couldn't even do that right.
>>25075820
As long as "dodge" is considered a command in the anime I can't take any of the battles seriously.
>>25076936
>I'm right because I say so
>>25076925
Name 3 reasons why ORigins was better.
>>25076942
>They have source material that they deliberately defy.
Because of two different universes. One is more realistic while the other isn't.
>>25076925
Because Origins was full of issues that made it unenjoyable, starting from the lenght and the choice of which parts to focus on (Lavender Town isn't nearly as relevant as the Celadon Team Rocket Hideout, it got an episode because muh creepypasta), not showing Red's growth as a trainer and having him be a sperging retard until the last episode where he's suddenly defeating the Elite Four and the champion (would've been cool to see the battles instead of stills by the way), Red only relying on the Charmander line all the way through, everything to do with Giovanni and his gym battle, which was Ash vs Roxie-tier, and tacking Mega Evolution on, finally revealing the whole thing for what it was, i.e. a giant ad for Pokémon X and Y.
>>25076908
>Okay, is this bait?
Every gif that's shown off about how cool and great the XY anime is just shows them doing some weird flashy bullshit. They have plot armor out the ass. A pikachu shouldn't be able to take on a M-Lucario unless there was a significant level difference. And if there was, then why the fuck is Ash still shitting around in the kiddy pool?
>You missed the point jackass. Turtwig weighs significantly less compared to torterra like a child with a sumo wrestler. All this "standard human" shit is fucking stupid because humans are a random box. you could have a guy who is the standard weight run slower than a child for other circumstances like weak lungs.
Okay? Great. A fit child can run faster than a cancer riddled smoker. What relevance does that even have?
The point in comparing a child to an adult is to show that weight isn't the only factor. A child weighs less than an adult. An adult can still out run a child.
>Are you fucking retarded son? if you were to shot the bike with the same force as the rocket it'd go farther at way faster speed.
That was literally the fucking point I was making. Are you dense? You're only facotring in weight of the two, as if the thrust of the stronger adult isn't a factor.
A human adult can run faster than a human child despite weighing more because a human adult can generate stronger thrust. How is this concept hard for you to grasp?
LIke holy fuck, you should've learned this shit in fucking 3rd grade dude.
>>25076946
Pikachu don't move! That doesn't follow the games logic!
>>25076946
Yeah, just let your opponent shot moves at your Pokemon.
>>25076963
Forgot to mention that the animation was only average outside of select parts of episodes 1 and 4.
>>25076969
It makes less sense to deliberately tell them TO dodge. Why wouldn't they dodge to begin with? Why does Ash have enough time to command that?
>>25076942
>Also no, Mega stones weren't available in RBY, but they are canon to the universe.
Then you should be talking shit about Origins because its taking its own liberties. It's based off of Red, Blue, and Green, not fucking FRLG which means Mega Stones aren't canon. There are Johto Pokemon in FRLG, there aren't in Origins. Origins treats it like the 151 Pokemon that exist in Kanto are the only Pokemon discovered just like in RBGY. Mega Stones aren't even canon in FRLG.
>Also Haunter can learn Shadow Punch in FRLG which is what Origin's designs are based off of.
No it's not. It was specifically stated to be based off the original games.
>origin
>red's Jolteon OHKO by a rhydon's thunderbolt
>it takes out literally 5 out of his pokemon
>Red wins because of plot armor bigger than Ash ever have had and thanks to Charizard pandering shit
>literally no strategies and only plot armor/ exchange of moves
>wins over Blue because muh Charizard
Biggest fucking let down. I was hyped to get any other series than the Ashnime and it turned into a Charizard pandering, retarded Red pile of shit. At least the ashnime has some good battles. This was just shit.
>>25076942
>Torterra's speed>Turtwigs speed
Absolutely, according to the games, but NEITHER ANIME is accurate to the games. Rhyhorn does not outspeed Jolteon, nor OHKO it with thunderbolt, but in Origins it did. So both shows are full of "anime bullshit."
The difference is that the ashnime at least has believable internal logic like larger Pokemon often being slower. Hell, if you want to use game logic, it's possible Ash didn't train Turtwig in speed EVs, so when it reached a level where they came into effect (which is how it worked in gen 4), it was comparatively slower than its opponents. But really, that shit is irrelevant because while both shows are bullshit.
>>25076908
>Since torterra is heavier and way more massive than turtwig it'd take significantly more force to move the beast. hence why it's slower. Do you even physics retard?
Not the same anon, but either you're baiting or you're a gigantic faggot.
Do you honestly believe that baby elephants run faster than adult elephants? Even if Turtwig can move his limbs slightly faster than Torterra, Torterra strides are x5 times bigger than Turtwig. How the fuck is supposed Turtwig to walk faster, retard? He should move five times faster than his evolved form. Five fucking times.
>>25076942
>Doesn't mean it was using that.
Yes it does. Abilities automatically activate in the anime just like they do in the games. Thunder Armor was the name given to the electrified Swellow that looked like it was wearing it as armor.
>makes no god damn sense
You mean Swellow using Pikachu's continous electrical shocks to make itself more stronger, exactly how it works in the games?
>Guts doesn't make you more resistant to damage
Which wasn't the case in the battle. Did you actually watch it?
>>25077003
because while both shows are bullshit, the ashnime actually has interesting battles that don't limit themselves to game mechanics while simultaneously breaking them.
>>25076980
Because he's the trainer.
>Why wouldn't they dodge to begin with?
Because the Pokemon don't know whether or not the trainer will use that attack as an advantage. The attack could be coming and Ash could be thinking of telling Pikachu to deflect it back with Iron Tail but since Pikachu dodged without Ash telling it too, they couldn't use he attack to their advantage.
And Pokemon in Origins, the main anime, AND the games, with certain circumstances, become stronger the more damage they take.
>>25076974
No, it's from the fact that if you shout "dodge" you have a significantly higher chance to dodge than if you let your pokémon just react itself.
So why trainers don't shout dodge all the time an attack is incoming is beyond me. It's only used for plot convenience.
>>25076980
They do. (Sometimes trainers tell them to wait if they had an estrategy of some kind)
Also its no different to command an attack
Why do people think you can even compare both of the animes. Both are shit in their own way. The ashnime is the same shit over and over again that leada to nothing and literally is just a commercial but with interesting battles that involves a lot of strategy, out of the box thinking and has the luxury of not sticking to game mechanics so they can make a bone rush actually hit a flying type. Because it's a fucking bone.
Red was an very interesting concept and something new ruined by the shit battles, the shit logic, Charizard pandering and plot armor Red.
>>25076991
>>25077008
>>25076961
>Then you should be talking shit about Origins because its taking its own liberties
There's this projection going on that because I think the ashnime is shit that I must think that Origins is flawless, but believe me, I could talk shit about Origins too, but at the moment this retard rant is about retarded shit the ashnime does.
Like I said from the beginning, I dont think Origins is even that great. Just less shit than te ashnime. The ashnime just does that bullshit a hell of a lot more frequently.
>No it's not. It was specifically stated to be based off the original games.
Fair enough. It uses designs from FRLG so it's at least a mixture of the two.
Still, those liberties are way more tame. They might not be 100% accurate to the exact game they came from, but theyre canon in some form later on in the game series.
I'd rather see a Charizard from Gen 1 use Blast Burn as their defiance than a Pikachu "aim for the horn" to defeat a Rhydon.
>Absolutely, according to the games, but NEITHER ANIME is accurate to the games
Yes, and thats the issue. I realize it's created it's own universe, and in it's own universe it's canon to itself. But I that's lame as fuck. They both have source material they could pick from that isn't necessarily defying anything one way or the other, and decided to just up and change it.
I'm sure Rhydon is weak to electric attacks if you strike it's horn according to the ashnime. I realize in it's own universe that's canon. But that doesn't just make it excusable, just because they said so.
>>25077042
>red
origins*
>>25077047
>It uses designs from FRLG
No it doesn't. Literally just Red and his design isn't even actually the Red from FRLG.
>>25077047
>I'd rather see a Charizard from Gen 1 use Blast Burn as their defiance than a Pikachu "aim for the horn" to defeat a Rhydon.
You saw a Rhyhorn use Thunderbolt to one-shot a Jolteon, who has an ability that makes it absord electric attacks. Literally the same thing.
>>25077024
because if it's just
attack > dodge
dodge < attack
then neither is hitting the other. attacking leaves them open, so it's a decision whether to evade or exploit the opening. like in a fighting game. also some attacks are harder to dodge than others, their speed isn't always represented in real time. like in DBZ where they're supposedly always moving at light speed, but the viewer still sees it.
>>25076980
>Why wouldn't they dodge to begin with?
some strategies require the pokemon to get hit
>>25077074
*absorb
And before you go "abilities don't count because gen 3", then why is Shadow Punch on a Haunter there? It's also gen 3.
>>25077071
It's a very light redesign of the Red from FRLG. So yes. It is. They changed what, the sleeves I think? It's clearly supposed to be the FRLG Red design.
>>25077074
>Literally the same thing.
No. It's not. Because first off, as another anon corrected me on, it's supposedly based off of RBY, where abilities don't necessarily exist. And secondly, Jolteon has more than just 1 ability. So in both Gen 1 and Gen 6 that situation could play out.
But it's still retarded. Just not as retarded as straight up plot-armoring to ignore type immunity.
>>25077077
The point is that often the trainer says nothing and the pokémon takes the attack head on without exploiting anything.
If you don't plan to counter the attack then you should always shout dodge.
>>25077092
>It uses designs
>*used design
>>25077092
>It uses designs from FRLG
>b-but it's a slight redesign
Shut up
>>25077105
And Giovanni. And the rocket members. And most of the gym leaders.
In fact, most distinguishable designs pulled from FRLG, with the rest being highly reminiscent of FRLG, and none being that of Gen 1.
>>25077111
>Changed the sleeves
>b-but it's totally Gen 1 red!
Stop grasping at straws.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>25077047
Because game logic itself doesn't always make sense. Why would earthquake hit a flying beedrill just because it's not a flying type? Why would bone rush not hit a bird because it's a ground move?
The game uses concrete, simplified mechanics for the sake of consistency and playability. It's an abstraction of combat made for a turn-based mathematical environment. But in a more real setting it wouldn't make sense, and it would be stupid to limit the show to those mechanics.
>>25077134
Fucking kek. Snorlax shooting hyper beam out of its eyes. How can anybody like this shit?
>>25077127
>Changed the sleeves
>And the pants
>And the shoes
>And the backpack
>Doesn't even have a VS Seeker
Literally only thing similar is the jacket
Fuck off
>>25077137
I dont think an anime needs to follow the game 100% of the time, but it should try as hard as it could to stick to the world that was set up.
You're right. Earthquake only hits Beedrill because of purely mechanical reasons, not realistic ones. I'd be a-okay with an anime allowing a Beedrill to dodge that.
But shit like thunder armor or attacking the horn is just dumb. And mind you, those are both individually dumb incidents, and monickers for the ashnime's general shittiness with making crap up. Mind you, Origins did the same shit just in way, WAY smaller doses. It's technically correct that a Rhyhorn could one shot a Jolteon with an electric attack, but why not just make the Rhyhorn use a ground move, when Jolteon's glaringly weak to that?
I mean, the game has systems in place to make for good, thrilling action, but they just ignore it. It comes off as "Pikachu always wins in the end no matter what, except at the elite four so we can continue making money."
>>25077153
So are you trying to convince me, or yourself at this point?
The overall design has extremely slight tweaks. That's it. You're acting like the nigga is wearing a Tap out shirt, top hat and short shorts. The only major change is the shirt, and oh I guess no Vs. Seeker.
Its based off of FRLG. Youre seriously trying too hard.
>>25077183
No you're trying too hard
>>25077183
>Origins did the same shit just in way, WAY smaller doses
This delusion.
>>25077216
So are you gonna shout buzzwords or actually provide proof of how Origins has more liberties taken than the ashnime?
>>25077237
Read the topic.
>>25077281
Right. So you got nothing, then?
>>25077183
Origins did it in the exact same doses, just not in a creative way. Charizard just bulks hydro pump because plot armor. It's no truer to the game's mechanics, it still overrides them for plot reasons, but doesn't even make an effort to work around them in a rational way.
The game is still the basis for the ashnime's battles, it just expands on the basic mechanics. For example, pikachu being able to use controlled, weaker thundershocks to paralyze Swellow, thus triggering Guts. You can even replicate this in the game with the right levels and builds. This is much better than Origins where they just hit each other with whatever and whoever needs to win does.
>>25077183
Shit like thunder armor and attack the horn hasn't been seen for nearly 10 years though.
>>25075820
>Enemy trainer gives command for a move
>"Dodge it"
>>25077347
One of these days, some poor soul will actually take up the challenge of counting the number of times trainers have ordered their pokemon to dodge in the show.
The number's still growing, folks.
Hey guys, I enjoy both.
Crazy right?
>>25077144
Origins was bad, but Snorlax shooting fucking laser beams from its eyes is something I will defend till end of days. That one bit was the highlight of the entire episode. It's just so out of nowhere and absurd that I can't help but love it.
>>25076571
Fucking this, Harrison vs Ash was also neat
Remove the filler bullshit and Sinnoh was pretty good
>ashnime
>literally only strategy
>says there is none
Why do you lie OP?
https://youtu.be/IZjXx8S7qAo?t=337
>>25077487
I don't really see why people are so pissed of by filler episodes. They release an episode a week. It's idiotic to think that they can have a show without fillers when there's so many episodes. Just find an episode guide and skip the fillers.
