Who's better?
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You are currently reading a thread in /vp/ - Pokemon
Well?
By personality and looks or just the character in general then Red
As for how much they know about pokemon/how good they are competitively I don't know
>red has mega charizard
>ash has ash grininja
red wins
Red. Lookit them jeans, god damn.
>>25022221
The answer is simple.SUS
>>25022221
You'd have to pick Ash's best line up vs Red's line up
Mega Charizard
Scyther
Jolteon
Dodrio
Persian
Lapras
Vs
???
>>25022221
I DON'T GIVE A SHIT!!
>>25022253
kek
ash never accomplished anything. ever. he's not even a champion, he's just some whiny ten year old.
ash will never get canon gf and canon successors
>>25022300
Take your pick
Pikachu
Charizard
Pidgeot
Snorlax
Lapras
Tauros
Heracross
Sceptile
Infernape
likely more I'm forgetting since I haven't watched the ashnime since TPCI took over and nuked it with awful voice acting and dialogue.
>>25022229
Red has no personality you dipstick.
>>25022475
>pidgeot
>good
Pikachu
Charizard
Snorlax
Heracross
Sceptile
Infernape
Greninja
>>25022300
Red would be completely devastated by Ash's best 6. The fact that he doesn't even have a best 6 because he has numerous Pokemon that tear through asses should show who's the better trainer
But choose who you want out of
Pikachu
Charizard
Snorlax
Infernape
Swellow
Sceptile
Glalie
Heracross
Krookodile
Greninja
Talonflame
Gliscor
Gible
>>25022368
Edgy
>>25022221
They're the same person.
They Just exist in two completely parallel universes.
>>25022544
Picture was from Origins ao I assumed Origins Red, dipstick.
>>25022580
that's frlg red you dolt
>>25022580
Wait a fucking minute that isn't even Origins picture
Shit
>>25022580
>Picture was from Origins
u wot
>>25022587
Fuck I just glanced over the picture and didn't realize
If that's the case then just the looks
>>25022221
Ash is the best incarnation of Red because he actually has a personality and isn't destined to win forever.
>>25022221
Ash seems to love Pokémon more.
Well that's an easy one OP.
Gold beat Red, Ash beat Gold.
Therefor Ash > Red
>>25022909
>KO Gold's Donphan with an iron tail
Gold is shit
>>25022909
When did Ash beat Gold?
>>25022931
The beginning of mobie 13. They cut it out in the english dub though because jews.
>>25022587
>Red is on green side
>Leaf is on the red side
>>25022972
Does it even matter? Even if you swapped around it would still be wrong, since it isn't WaterBlue or something.
Ash is a starter babby
His best line up would be starters
>>25022937
They didn't cut it from the movie theaters. I recall this opening quite well. And it was one of the first 3 movies
>>25023449
Not the same movie m8.
>>25022221
Red is just some edgy kid whereas Ash actually has story and character flaws. Ash is without a doubt the better character
>>25022221
The competent one that has left the shithole that is Kanto and managed to collect several badges and waifus from all the regions, Satoshi aka Ash.
>>25022221
>red jacket vs blue jacket
Well it's a fucking given
>>25022937
This wasn't Gold, movie one was Jimmy.
>>25022221
The one that isn't Ash.
>>25022221
>>25023572
>Yellow bag vs green bag
>Yellow bike vs green bike
!
>>25022221
Gold kicks both of their asses
>>25023622
Gold is a faggot and probably a manlet as well
>>25023622
Silver is better than all of them
>>25023420
>le epik manga name maymay
>>25023642
>>25023637
And nate/Rosa canonically beat every single champion + red. So they're the best.
Evil team is a gang who wants to control the world with their form of communism government
No legendary plot
>>25023499
>Kills his rival's Raticate
Blue doesn't even say anything about any of his Pokemon dying, he just says "Your Pokemon don't look dead, but I can at least make them faint!"
>Charizard
>Sceptile
>Infernape
>Gliscor
>Smogonbird
>Greninjash
Red would be toast
>>25022381
>Never accomplished anything
This is how I know you've never watched the anime part from OS/Johto.
>Winner of Orange Islands League
>Top 8 in both Johto/Hoenn
>Beat the battle frontier, was even offered a chance to be Brain frontier and declined to continue his journey
>Top 4 in Sinnoh, writers wrote his defeat out with a legendary mon user that spammed Dark Void
>Has seen all legendary Pokemon (so far, apart from Volcanion I guess)
>Experienced far more than most other trainers
>Has a new mega form unknown to everyone else apart from the small ninja village, happens only once in 1k years
>>25022475
Pikachu
Charizard
Snorlax
Heracross
Bulbasaur
Sceptile
Donphan
Infernape
Brave Bird 1.0
Gliscor
Muk
ShadesCroc
Greninja
Swellow
Brave Bird 2.0: The FiREvengeance
Gible
He released Pidgeot and Lapras so I doubt he'll be able to get them back.
>>25023600
Green bike a best.
Also possibly canon.
>>25023785
>canonically
>unofficial asian comics book
>>25022221
Clearly /vp/. Us or Smogon drones.
>>25024875
PWT in BW2, dumbass
>>25023499
If Ash won the orange league and didn't become a Pokémon masterbecause frankly they didn't even specify what is a Pokémon master, why Ash cannot win any of the other leagues?
>>25025833
>PWT
>canon
>postgame
>ever canon
>>25025908
>b-b-but...
Red's battles only exist in post games. If they aren't canon, then this thread is pointless.
>>25025908
Postgame is canon you retard.
>>25025956
>Red's battles only exist in post games.
>I havent played Gen 2 or its remakes
>>25026132
That's the problem with the Johto games - where does endgame end and postgame begin?
>>25022592
>he actually has a personality
All Red's incarnations have personality. The game one doesnt have a canon one since its supposed to be you.
>isn't destined to win forever
And that's good because?
>>25023499
>Orange leageu champion vs Indigo league champion
That's for Red given Ash tried and failed Indigo league, not to mention that the elite 4 appear on the show and Ash is clearly not as good as them.
>Red never visits any region outside of Kanto
Because he's not a playable character in other games, not a valid comparison. By percentage, Red won the only league he tried, while ash has onle orange. And Red appeared in Jhoto and Unova.
>Red doesnt visit his mom
headcanon. Just because we dont see him moving doesnt mean he doesnt do so, its like saying people on the pokemon world dont go to the bathroom. And even assuming pic is right, it's not a reason why Ash would be better.
>dissapears forever because of Gold
headcanon, and he reappears on Unova.
>Kill's raticate
headcanon
>wont face Mewtwo without a MasterBall
That's a player's choice, so headcanon. You cant really punch Mewtwo in the game either.
>girls wants Ash's ass
Not Misty. That said, we are comparing trainers here, not who fucks the most. But I'll let that one pass since its the closest thing to a fact the pic has.
>The chosen one
Didnt ash fans constantly say that he's good for being more realistic? Way to keep consistency. I will take "just some guy" becoming special than a shitty the chosen one regurgitation.
tl:dr the guy had to make up shit about Red just to make Ash look better. Then again, ash fans arent exactly known for their reading comprehension.
>>25026157
the endgame is beating Red, the credits roll there too.
Take that out and Gen 2 are demoted to shit.
>>25026191
Because winning forever gets boring. It's what led Little Mac to retire after his first three losses.
>>25026243
>Because winning forever gets boring.
Losing forever gets boring too,specially if you have to hinder your character's progress to do that.
And no Red wins forever so there's also that.
>>25022544
>Red is better for many reasons.
Has no personality? Read the manga, dipshit.
>>25026251
He has lost before.
Where is that picture of Ash saying, "Let's go pikachu, there's no pokemon here. Just a bunch of naked girls."
I believe Red would bed a lady
>>25026602
>I believe Red would bed a lady
He wouldn't even call his own mother and the only girl we've heard him actually talk to was Copycat.
>>25026602
>I believe Red would bed a lady
>Ash specifically asks a girl to go with him
>>25026683
>>25026647
>>25023622
>Gen 4 Gold
>Gen 1 Red
>REDGY
every fucking time
>>25024488
>Winner of Orange Islands League
yes
>Top 8 in both Johto/Hoenn
There is no hall of fame for 8th place
>Beat the battle frontier, was even offered a chance to be Brain frontier and declined to continue his journey
A high honor
>Top 4 in Sinnoh, writers wrote his defeat out with a legendary mon user that spammed Dark Void
didn't win, doesn't count
>Has seen all legendary Pokemon (so far, apart from Volcanion I guess)
doesn't make a difference
>Experienced far more than most other trainers
Now you're scraping the bottom of the barrel
>Has a new mega form unknown to everyone else apart from the small ninja village, happens only once in 1k years
I'd say he was lucky to find that special Froakie, he didn't really do anything to get that new form.
>>25026202
Credits roll after beating Lance in HGSS, never played Gen II, so idk about that one.
>>25022221
Red won his league, the answer is obvious.
>>25022592
He's destined to lose forever, which is worse. And Red eventually loses to Gold.
>>25026602
>>25026602
>I believe Red would bed a lady
He has other interests.
Reminder that:
- the only Pokemon you can canonically prove Red caught were the Pokemon who are gifts in Yellow version, Yellow Version's starter, and a Pokemon you're forced to run into
- He didn't catch any of the legendaries, because they're all right back where they were originally in HGSS
- He never actually defeated Team Rocket, Gold/Lyra did
>>25026843
>didn't win, doesn't count
The league in the anime is nothing like in the games. In the games if you loose you can keep challenging the same opponents over and over until you win. In the anime it's a full fledged tournament. Ash is challenging every other trainer on the same journey as him including people who have been doing this for YEARS. And the only reason he didn't win in Sinnoh is because his opponent had a team of legendaries led by a Darkrai that one shot KO'd every other trainer he faced.
>>25022592
>Ash
>personality
Also, Red lost to Gold/Kris/Lyra and Nate/Rosa.
Ash because he is part Pokemon.
>>25026949
It also happens when you beat Lance in Gen 2.
Which doesnt really change anything.
>>25027309
>ash
>no personality
Get a load of this retard
>>25027237
> the only Pokemon you can canonically prove Red caught were the Pokemon who are gifts in Yellow version, Yellow Version's starter, and a Pokemon you're forced to run into
Again, you people are forgetting that what we see in the games is a representation.
And even then, Red is miles better.
>>25027269
>The league in the anime is nothing like in the games.
Its like its a different medium or something!
>. In the games if you loose you can keep challenging the same opponents over and over until you win.
lore-wise, its never stated you challenge them more than one time, except maybe Gen 5.
>Ash is challenging every other trainer on the same journey as him including people who have been doing this for YEARS.
Yet he loses against people with less time training than him.
nobody
>>25029233
That's no fun
Every thread.
>>25029341
Giovanni is pretty badass.
>>25026683
join me ≠ join us
>>25025833
by a nameless character that was guided by the player, in a tour where red was randomly generated in the brackets
top kek
>>25026527
The fanfic isn't an official Pokemon production, there are also different version of the main character.
>>25024827
Did ANYBODY pick the yellow bike?
>>25022475
You forgot the legendary type plot armor
>>25029206
We really need a part 3.
>>25029545
I did
>>25029437
>I dont know what official means
>>25029206
sauce please
>>25029412
m8, he's the one that makes the suggestion and even ends up behaving like that when he starts getting too excited about trying to convince her to join.
>>25029856
That's cool. What's it like?
What would Ash's strongest team be?
Pikachu
Charizard
Snorlax
Sceptile
Infernape
Greninja
???
>>25030201
>Sugimori's tweets make everything official
top meme
fanfics and drawings he retweets are now official
>>25022475
Yeah you probably shouldn't have even posted at all
>>25022555
Most of these Pokémon are shit. Plus, Red is just a better Trainer. Ash is better at deus ex machina, and that's about it.
>>25030958
>Red is just a better Trainer
RHYHORN
>>25029224
>Ash
>personality
Get a load of this retard. Being a generic shell to advertise toys and video games to Japanese children does not count as a personality.
>>25031059
He still won.
>>25031184
Neither does being a self-insert for the player's personality.
>>25031190
Ah alright, I agree with you now, Being a Gary Stu is indeed better.
>>25031262
It is when the alternative is spending more than EIGHT HUNDRED EPISODES doing nothing that won't be reset at the end of the season.
ITT: People who think a character's worth is defined solely by their achievments
>>25031409
When neither character has any personality (except manga Red but there's always one sperg who enters these threads with "WHAT'S THAT NON-CANON UNOFFICIAL FANFIC WEBCOMIC HUH HUH HUH???" at its mention), so yes, achievements are probably the best way to compare them.
>>25031477
>manga Red
Even then, his personality is pretty much "the average shounen protagonist"
>>25031194
I never said Red had a personality.
Do all Ashnimefags get riled up this easily?
>>25031477
Well then compare Ash and Red's achievements
Ash
>Collected 48 (53 counting the Orange Islands) Badges
>Competed in 5 Pokemon League Conferences and has made Top 16 or higher each time
>Defeated all 7 Frontier Brains and offered the opportunity to become a Frontier brain
>Champion of the Orange League and in the Hall of Fame
>Came in the Top 8 of the Wallace Cup and Jubilife Pokemon Contest and he's not even a Coordinator
>Bonded and/or fought alongside every Legendary that currently exists
>Saved the world numerous times
>Defeated every evil team that currently exists
>Only person in the entire Sinnoh region to defeat Tobias' Darkrai AS WELL AS his Latios
Red
>Completed the Kanto Pokedex
>Became the Indigo League Champion
>Captured 150 Pokemon
>>25031477
>manga red
>having personality
>having more personality than Ash
kek, PokeSpergs
>>25031878
Oh wow, look at all that shit, surely he's one of the top trainers in the world which is why he lost to a Level 5 Snivy.
And you know Red's list would be much longer if he travelled to every region. Instead he managed to quickly achieve everything he wanted and end his story.
>>25031900
>he's one of the top trainers in the world which is why he lost to a Level 5 Snivy.
When a fucking Zekrom zapped Pikachu and made him into a vegetable
>>25031907
Pikachu had non-Electric attacks you apologist.
>>25031878
As a guy that thinks Ash is a better character by nature of being a character, even I can admit that achievements are unfair because Red never bothered to leave Kanto. I mean, it's not like he'd have any problem beating fucking Bugsy.
>>25031916
And Pikachu used its non-Electric attacks, which Snivy dodged
>>25031917
Nigga, anon said compare them by achievements, I did.
>>25031916
Not him but pikachu got extremely cocky and had the nerve to thundershock a fucking Electric pokemon deity.
You bet your sweet ass Zekrom paid him a thousand fold for his arrogance. I'm personally convince Zekrom unhacked pikachu with that lightning strike back.
Thus why pikachu had his ass handed to him early on in the season, about time too.
>>25031948
Pikachu's speed and defenses should be so high that it shouldn't be hit by anything and shouldn't take any damage even if it is.
And if Pikachu is still this weak, Ash needs to at least evolve it if he ever wants to win anything ever. Or replace it with one of his other strong Pokémon instead of boxing them for life.
>>25031917
>Went to train at Mt. Silver for two years
>Still lost to Gold
>>25031966
Did you watch the battle? Pikachu got exhausted and thrown off each time it tried to use an Electric-type move. Ash dug himself into a grave by willingly making Pikachu use up its energy.
>>25031967
>STILL calling Ethan, Gold
>>25031987
>Ethan
>implying I'm talking about HGSS
>>25031994
Of course not, you're talking about Adventures.
>>25031983
>Pikachu got exhausted and thrown off each time it tried to use an Electric-type move.
Then maybe it shouldn't've used them. Or even if it was forced to by Ash without any ability to disobey, that just makes Ash an even worse trainer.
>>25032005
No I'm talking about this guy
>>25032010
>Then maybe it shouldn't've used them.
It didn't know why the moves weren't working. Ash wasn't forcing him, he didn't know either.
Basically, they lost because Zekrom. Literally DEM to reset Pikachu and never appeared again.
>>25026602
Satoshi is an ambitious man, unwavering in his determination and no succubus will change that. He wants to overcome tough challenges and doing a girl that's presenting herself is more of a gift than a challenge. So naturally this is boring to him. If anything, this should be an admirable trait.
>>25032043
>It didn't know why the moves weren't working.
But it surely fucking knew they weren't working. If you broke your arm and had to go to the hospital, and you had to open your door, would you use your broken arm or would you use the arm that won't cause you severe pain to use?
>>25032060
>But it surely fucking knew they weren't working.
No it didn't. Did you watch the battle?
>>25032026
Damn, look at his legs. Those tiny shins, those long-ass thighs. The proportions are all wrong.
>>25032068
You just fucking said it got exhausted every single time it tried to use one!
I watched the battle when the Gen V Ashnime season had just started, then I saw that battle, then saw "YOU'RE SUCH A LITTLE KID" Iris, then stopped watching the Ashnime forever. I can't name specifics about the battle since it was so long ago but I know it was fucking pathetic and you're a drone for defending, out of anything and everything the Ashnime has ever done, that Snivy battle.
>>25032075
Gay
>>25032086
>You just fucking said it got exhausted every single time it tried to use one!
Right, and it didn't know why they weren't working. Ash told Pikachu to use Thunderbolt and Volt Tackle, neither of them worked and both Ash and Pikachu are confused by it.
>you're a drone for defending, out of anything and everything the Ashnime has ever done, that Snivy battle.
Of course because people like you talk shit about Pikachu and Ash because of this without taking things into context. Pikachu lost due to DEM.
Then you completely ignore the rematch where Pikachu, with it's Electric-moves in tact, OHKO'd Serperior. Fag.
>>25029341
I still call bullshit that Giovanni's Rhyhorn was that strong.
>>25032095
>implying you wouldn't tenderly caress Gold's thighs while stroking his shaft with your other hand
I bet you kiss girls faggot
>>25031900
Proofs?
>>25032144
Well Red, as a protagonist in the games, is interchangeable with pretty much every protagonist, so just combine what happens in every mainline game for an idea of this hypothetical situation. Remember, GSC and its remakes taught us that you're allowed to win leagues and still go to the next region.
>>25032127
Oh boy, Ash won a battle late in the region before the league, that'll surely matter before he gets reset for XY.
>>25031477
Literally salty over the fact your unofficial fanfic is being ignored as it should be.
Hahahaha oh wow!
Redfags are the worst, you can tell that from their Showdown teams and players,they suck so much Red dick that if the game one can't be defended anymore they pull a completely different Red version from some fanmade comics.
Worse than fifth gen apologists.
>>25032174
>Oh boy, Ash won a battle late in the region before the league
He OHKO'd the fully evolved Serperior with his Electro Ball. If he had his Electric moves, he would have most likely done the same thing to Snivy but we will never know.
>that'll surely matter before he gets reset for XY.
But he didn't get reset in XY
>>25032026
Yeah, that's Ethan.Ethan is the one from the video games, Gold is the one from the manga series (yes, just about all of the manga series), and Jimmy is the one from the show.
>People using Manga and Origins Red.
Video Game Red is a shit. Manga and Origins Red aren't even the same fucking person.
>Manga Red starts with a Poliwag.
>Origins Red never heard of Pokemon before and starts with Charmander.
>VideoGame Red starts with Pikachu
>>25022544
Pokemon adventures says hi
>>25032327
He was never called Ethan until HGSS. That's gold
>>25032396
Different, Non-Canon Red.
Satoshi from the Pocket Monsters manga is better.
He had his testicles stretched across the room by a charmander. He wins.
>>25030958
What does drus ex machina mean, especially in this context
>>25030932
Pokespe is still official, deal with it.
>Collected 48 (53 counting the Orange Islands) Badges
Red wasnt a player character in other regions, also they were worthless given he didnt finish their leagues
>Competed in 5 Pokemon League Conferences and has made Top 16 or higher each time
Yet he only won in a filler one
>Defeated all 7 Frontier Brains and offered the opportunity to become a Frontier brain
Which is inconcistent with his later competence, not to mention this was more than a decade ago
>Champion of the Orange League and in the Hall of Fame
Actual feat, which was also more than a decade ago
>Came in the Top 8 of the Wallace Cup and Jubilife Pokemon Contest and he's not even a Coordinator
Red wasnt the MC of Gen 3
>Bonded and/or fought alongside every Legendary that currently exists
Hasnt caught them tho
>Saved the world numerous times
By Deus ex machina usually
>Defeated every evil team that currently exists
He never defeated Rocket
>Only person in the entire Sinnoh region to defeat Tobias' Darkrai AS WELL AS his Latios
didnt Tobias win that fight?
All of those points dont take into account the fact that Red was only the MC in the Kanto games (or, taking the origins red into account, we never saw his adventures after Mewtwo), and assumes Ash develops continuously, which is the exact opposite if what you usually say.
>>25032060
>If you broke your arm and had to go to the hospital, and you had to open your door, would you use your broken arm or would you use the arm that won't cause you severe pain to use?
I'm pretty sure Ash, and specially his apologist would use the injured hand. They arent that smart.
>>25032401
He was never called Gold in the video games, not even in GSC.
>>25032502
>Which is inconcistent with his later competence,
How? He went to Sinnoh right after the Battle Frontier and that was the region Ash was at his absolute best.
>>25032060
>>25032517
That's a terrible comparison.
>>25032502
Your argument makes no sense. The whole thing was to compare each trainer's achievements. It wasn't "compare each other's achievements in Kanto". Are you calling foul because you realize Ash actually has more achievements than Red because he is the ahem, better character?
And then some of these arguments
>more than a decade ago
What does that have to do with anything? Red did all the shit he did 20 years.
>By Deus ex machina
Where? Please point to me any occurence of Ash saving the world due to DEM
>He never defeated Rocket
Yes he did, in Unova. They just didn't disband because shutting down your organization after losing to a little kid is fucking retarded.
And also, Red didn't defeat Team Rocket either since the team was still around, admins and all, waiting for Giovanni to return. Ethan is the one who made Team Rocket finally disband.
>didn't Tobias win that fight?
That doesn't defeat the fact that Ash was the only one in the entire region to defeat his Darkrai and his Latios. He solo'd the entire region with Darkrai.
>>25032215
Well I guess BW to XY didn't need a reset since Ash was so shit in BW that he lost to a kid dumb enough to only bring five Pokémon to the fight. It's the exception so far, but it's still going to end the same way and then you'll have a reset again.
>>25032841
Not with Megas flying everywhere now.
>>25032883
Ash doesn't even have a Mega yet.
Red
Nigga has at least conquered the league before. He set out with a goal in mind and did it as well as basically completing the original dex.
Ash has never really made any significant accomplishments despite the fact that he could be an okay trainer if he would simply continue to train his pokemon instead of ditching them all on Oak to never be seen again.
>>25032933
I thought Red's goal was completing the dex and the league was a side thing. You're right though.
>>25032933
This. Ash doesn't even care about his Pokemon besides Pikachu, no matter how many feels or whatever the Ashnime tries to force down our throats.
>>25033193
Reminder that Ash doesn't care about Pikachu either.
>>25033193
>>25033208
>Red catches Pokemon and boxes them
>>25022221
Ash. By orders of magnitude.
>>25023575
jimmy looks completly different. that's literally HGSS gold
>>25033362
Except the anime writers don't think of anything deeper than the most shallow themes or plotlines. Ash will still be that so-so trainer nobody knows until the end of time, any Pokemon he releases or trades away will go back into the void, and each new encounter with a legendary or a new species of Pokemon will just be another forgettable episodic romp in an animated commercial for the games.
The writers don't care. The animators don't care. The children watching it don't care. The characters don't care. Nobody cares.
>>25032694
>They just didn't disband because shutting down your organization after losing to a little kid is fucking retarded.
This.
>And also, Red didn't defeat Team Rocket either since the team was still around, admins and all, waiting for Giovanni to return. Ethan is the one who made Team Rocket finally disband.
This as well.
>>25033573
Your tears are delicious, Redfag.
>>25033917
>tears
What tears? And I'm not even a Redfag. I don't care about him at all. It's just that anyone who tries adding any more meaning to a shallow children's commercial for merchandise is delusional and is getting their hopes up for nothing.
>>25022300
Red's best lineup is what he brought to Mewtwo.
So Mega Charizard X, Lapras, Gengar, Articuno.
The other two are most likely Moltres and Zapdos.
>>25034961
So you're saying that Ash has to travel to the three islands to get the birds to stop fighting him or he's fucked?
>>25032694
Being teared back to life is what gets Mewtwo to stop being a dick.
>>25032694
Ash is not the better character because of that. He was (by being the face of the anime) allowed to go to all the other regions whereas Red gets shipped off to mount Silver to write him out of the other games. That doesn't mean he is better, just well traveled. As for a definitive I would say Red is the better trainer just based on consistency (whereas Ash is a good as the plot demands), but in terms of being an actual person Ash has more source material at his disposal.
>>25023499
Isn't Orange league fake baby shit for losers?
>>25035495
>As for a definitive I would say Red is the better trainer just based on consistency
What consistency? Game Red is as good as the player
Origins Red is shit
Manga Red is good but plot helps him just as much as Ash.
Ash has his downs but his ups are leagues above most trainers. The biggest difference is that we actually see battles play out in the anime while the games we just know Red won. We don't know how. Just that he did. We know how Ash battles at his best and how strategic he can be. Can't say the same for game Red.
>>25026949
Red is the Mewtwo of Gen 2. The elite 4 is still the end, he is just an extra fight.
AIM FOR THE HORN!
The anime is a bad representation of the games meant to sell merchandise, nothing more. Ash, by extension, is nothing but a marketing tool.
>>25032502
When did Red catch a Legendary? It's not on his team in HGSS or GSC, and I can catch all of them in HGSS, implying he never caught them at all
>>25035571
>it's been about 17 years or so since the whole aim for the horn thing
>peoplr still fucking bring it up
>>25035749
because the faggot also did something recently like break trick room with x-scissor or something fucking retarded. I think aim for the horn is still quite relevant lol
>>25035772
How is that retarded? It's a room. Why can't you attack the barriers to break it? It's perfectly fair and it distinguishes the anime from the games, since in the games you can't do things like dig underground and burn up toxic spikes or break a trick room
>>25035571
Winning by doing a retarded asspull of a strategy is still better than winning because of Gary Stu ex machina "le Charizard is the stronkest" pandering wankfest bullshit.
I cannot belive, that no one posted the obvious answer...
>>25027237
Legendary≠Mythical
There's more than one of many mythical pokémon
>>25022221
An edgelord with genwun syndrome and Charizard pandering vs someone who got movies, visited different regions and battled several relevant opponents and got numerous waifus. Golly gee! Redtards are the worst as always and are on the wrong side of the history.
>>25032653
Battle Frontier is for league winners. If he beat them, then he should be on champion level adter that.
>>25035636
When did I imply Red did?
>>25032694
>Your argument makes no sense.
No pro-ash argument makes sense
>The whole thing was to compare each trainer's achievements. It wasn't "compare each other's achievements in Kanto".
Red is Kanto's MC, so it makes sense to compare those in Kanto. It makes no sense to compare all of Ash's achievements after it, since Red is not featured there.
That said, Red is still better than Ash.
>Red did all the shit he did 20 years.
Yes, and his story ended. Ash's didnt.
>Please point to me any occurence of Ash saving the world due to DEM
Aura power, the chosen one, etc.
>Yes he did, in Unova. They just didn't disband because shutting down your organization after losing to a little kid is fucking retarded.
So he didnt defeat them for good.
>And also, Red didn't defeat Team Rocket either since the team was still around, admins and all, waiting for Giovanni to return. Ethan is the one who made Team Rocket finally disband.
Never said otherwise. That said, pointing this out contradicts your previous statement.
>That doesn't defeat the fact that Ash was the only one in the entire region to defeat his Darkrai and his Latios. He solo'd the entire region with Darkrai.
Not the elites.
>>25035511
>Origins Red is shit
Not really
>Manga Red is good but plot helps him just as much as Ash.
Red's achievements are also part of his development as trainer. In Ash's case the plot helps him and also hinders him which makes no sense.
>>25036707
>An edgelord with genwun syndrome and Charizard pandering
Who is that?
>someone who got movies, visited different regions and battled several relevant opponents and got numerous waifus
None of that makes you good either as a character or as a trainer.
>>25022221
In terms of battling, red has more talent but ash seems to have more knowledge as a result of his life traveling.
I guess that ash vs Origins red would be a close fight, but charizard X would tilt the result to red's favor.
>>25037126
>but ash seems to have more knowledge as a result of his life traveling.
He doesnt really accumulate knowledge though.
>>25037091
>Not really
Are you serious? More than half of his team got defeated by Giovanni's Rhyhorn. Every battle he won was because of Charmander/Charizard being the only Pokemon strong enough to pose a threat to his opponent. Fuck his Charizard almost got OHKO'd by Double Kick.
ASh did pretty shitty against Roxie with a 6v3 because he was using his shitty unevolved Pokemon, but Red had no excuse to almost lose a 6v2 with fully capable Pokemon.
>>25037181
> Every battle he won was because of Charmander/Charizard being the only Pokemon strong enough to pose a threat to his opponent. Fuck his Charizard almost got OHKO'd by Double Kick.
That's because, and I know its hard for people here to grasp, the origin was the story of Red's bond with Charmander-Charizard.
Red won the league(which includes defeating the elite 4, all of which are shown in the anime show and as way better trainers than Ash), he's objetively better than Ash.
>>25037066
>Red is Kanto's MC, so it makes sense to compare those in Kanto.
That wasn't what was said though. What was said to compare both of their achievements you retard. I feel like you just can't accept that Ash has more achievements than Red.
>That said, Red is still better than Ash
In no way shape or form
>Ash didn't
Which is good because he's continuing to explore the Pokemon world. Red stopped and because of that he got his ass kicked by Ethan.
>Aura power
Ash didn't save the world with his powers though, Lucario did
>The chosen one
This isn't DEM and wasn't actually the chosen one, it was just mistranslation by 4kids you fucking dubfag.
>So he didnt defeat them for good.
Neither did Red.
>Not the elites
He didn't challenge the Elite Four.
>>25037126
>I guess that ash vs Origins red would be a close fight
>>25037202
Red's League doesn't consist of having to compete against hundreds of other trainers in order to get the spot to challenge the ELite Four.
>>25037202
So his bond excuses his shitty performance and the incompetence of his Pokemon?
Fuck off
>>25037234
>What was said to compare both of their achievements you retard. I feel like you just can't accept that Ash has more achievements than Red.
Which is not a good comparison since Red doesnt get more achievements not for being incompetent, but for not being featured. It's like saying Batman is a better fighter than Luke Skywalker because he won more fights.
And even then, Red won the very thing Ash strives and fails to do, so yeah, Red is better. Ash's "achievements" are just things you count because he doesnt have actual ones or shit that;s like a decade old ( which contradicts the usual "Ash is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT character each season" "argument" you fags make every time we discuss him)
>Red stopped and because of that he got his ass kicked by Ethan.
Because its an NPC. Do you know what an NPC is do you? Oh, wait, you probably dont.
>Neither did Red.
Neither did ash
>He didn't challenge the Elite Four.
Because he didnt even make it to that point. Thanks for proving me right.
>>25037250
>what is victory road
And that implies the elite four are better than all the other trainers Ash had to fight...and he couldnt beat, so yeah.
>>25037263
>So his bond excuses his shitty performance and the incompetence of his Pokemon?
They didnt have much time to develop his other mons, so yeah, they had to use what they could to develop charizard. Pretty ironic an Ashfag doesnt like bonds btw.
>>25037291
>what is victory road
You can't be serious. If you lose a battle in Victory Road, all you do is rechallenge that trainer. Victory Road isn't a tournament, it's a meeting spot where trainers train and test their skills against other strong trainers.
>>25037351
ok, read the rest of the sentence then
Ash did complete the Kanto Pokedex, he saw all 151 Pokemon even before he reached the League AND Ho-Oh and Togepi
Redfags BTFO
>>25037370
Is the Porygon episode canon?
And even then
>counting views
casual pls
>>25037291
>Because its an NPC. Do you know what an NPC is do you? Oh, wait, you probably dont.
Lol so now Red's lost against Ethan is excused because "m-muh NPC"?
>>25037380
Ash saw a legendary Pokemon that didn't even properly exist yet before any incarnation of Red
Redfags BTFO
>>25037291
> they had to use what they could to develop charizard. Pretty ironic an Ashfag doesnt like bonds btw.
Considering the how much the franchise shoves that lesson into every source of media, of course someone is going to bring it up. Even OS/Johto Ash gave each mon a chance to shine, even if Pika and Charizard were his blatant aces at the time. Origins Red just looks like the 8 year old that facerolled the game with his starter with 4 STAB moves.
Ash develops at a fucking snail's pace with an above average record.
Origins Red is getting really close to 'chosen one' territory, with way too fast pacing, but he does 'finish'.
It's apples vs oranges to me. I'm personally just tired of all these threads assuming a main character needs to be the best thing ever because either one is pretty flawed.
>>25037390
>Lol so now Red's lost against Ethan is excused because "m-muh NPC"?
I was reffering to him being stuck at Mt Silver, not his defeat, we dont really know whether he still wanted to travel or not, we just find him there.
Though yeah, he is defeated by Ethan because he's a boss on a game where Ethan is playable, so he was technically defeated for being an NPC.
Yet, it's only one loss against...how many does Ash have?
>>25037410
> didn't even properly exist
Pretty sure Ho-Oh was already made when it appeared on the anime.
>>25037419
> Even OS/Johto Ash gave each mon a chance to shine, even if Pika and Charizard were his blatant aces at the time.
Yes, because Ash is, you know, part of a tvshow which has different pacing that the limited 2 hours the origin had, of course Ash's mons would get more screen time. You're retarded for even bringing that up.
And even then Red's bond with charizard amounted to something since they achieved their goals and got a closure, Ash's and Pikachu 's bond didnt amount to anything ( not to mention that apparently he has a bigger bond with Greninja than Pikachu now)
>Ash develops at a fucking snail's pace with an above average record.
Keep telling yourself that, maybe in Gen 97 Ash will finally get to the league final fight. Great pacing dude.
>Origins Red is getting really close to 'chosen one' territory
Not really, no
> I'm personally just tired of all these threads assuming a main character needs to be the best thing ever because either one is pretty flawed.
An MC has to develop consistently, be entertainig and make you root for him ( most of the times, but we're talking about a kids franchise). Its not like Origins Red is a great character, its more Ash's character being so fucking shit literally everything is better.
>>25035983
>better than winning because of Gary Stu ex machina "le Charizard is the stronkest" pandering wankfest bullshit.
That happens to ash all the time too. How many times does this guy beat an evolved pokemon with their basic counter part or how many times does he beat a pokemon with a pokemon weak to them. Always.
>>25034161
just point the to /co/ or /mlp/ why don't you?
>>25037263
Giovanni would ruin Ashes day too. This is shit no one remembers. Ashe NEVER FOUGHT Giovanni who was clearly the strongest trainer ash got to skip for no reason.
>>25037443
Ho-Oh's design wasn't finished and it was still in concept which is why when it appeared it was entirely gold
Gold and Silver weren't even announced
>>25037443
>only one loss
Taking into count Red is a game character that is playable, his loss count is how many times the person player loses a battle.
>>25037410
HOLY SHIT HE SAW IT. LIKE WITH HIS EYES OMG!
Almost as crazy as Red almost catching mew in chapter 1.
>>25037484
And if you don't lose?
There's only one you can prove its canon, which is Ethan. The rest are possibilities that may or may not have happened.
>>25037473
Ash defeated Giovanni in Unova though
>>25037443
>Keep telling yourself that, maybe in Gen 97 Ash will finally get to the league final fight. Great pacing dude.
Did you think I was complimenting Ash there? Because I wasn't. Slow down, man.
>Not really, no
Did you see that Giovanni flashback with the charmander? It almost makes it seem that Red was the ideal trainer to set him straight, in a way.
>An MC has to develop consistently, be entertainig and make you root for him ( most of the times, but we're talking about a kids franchise). Its not like Origins Red is a great character, its more Ash's character being so fucking shit literally everything is better.
So no development is better than inconsistent development? Irespectyour opinion, but I think both are equally shit in these cases. Ash goes so slow you stop caring after a point, Origins goes so fast you feel like you missed something.
>>25037499
Is it this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLi2m2cXYfI
>>25037498
If we take Origins into account, he also lost to Green and Giovanni.
Then you ask how many times Ash has lost but he's traveled more so his losses will obviously be more than Red's because he's battled more trainers. How many actual trainers did Red battle in Origins that wasn't Green, Gym Leaders, or the Elite Four? The Youngster?
>>25037501
> It almost makes it seem that Red was the ideal trainer to set him straight, in a way.
hardly the chosen one
>So no development is better than inconsistent development?
No. But Red has development and Ash doesnt. Ash's development is not slow, its nonexistant, people here pretend it exists to win these arguments (and get to the point of denying that when defending XY) but in reality all the "progress" he makes is faux because its reseted later or outright ignored.
Red progressed on a factual way which you can clearly see in the origin, Ash just does random shit.
Ash is not the result of any sort of planning, is the result of some of the worst people on the creative industry pandering to an audience they dont appreciate and an adult audience that will like whatever they will do.
>>25037509
No this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CBKTDUmjHk
>>25037530
Is isn't a fucking pokemon battle, this is Ash trying to kill a fucking person with a spirit bomb. He threw that shit at Giovanni which is illegal in pokemon so Ash losses and he should be fucking arrested.
>>25037528
>Red progressed on a factual way which you can clearly see in the origin
How? iirc he never trained or did anything to make his Pokemon stronger. He just walked to the next battle and relied on Charizard's bs last second OHKO's
>>25037519
When did he lose to Giovanni?
https://youtu.be/Pets6v7lcGY
He wins in the end
>>25037530
I didn't know Giovanni himself was a pokemon, that was a great battle him and Pikachu must have had.
>>25037566
>>25037548
They were battling the genies you dumbasses. Ash told Pikachu to use Electro Ball on the mirror to break it.
>>25037555
>iirc he never trained or did anything to make his Pokemon stronger.
His fights in the first part made him understand pokemon battles, and he grows from fresh trainer to champion tier. You just dont see him training, but its obvious it happens. Charmander doesnt exactly evolve by stone you know?
>>25037575
So it wasn't a fight dumbass? He didn't battle Giovanni and just fucking blew up the trainer and his item?
>>25037560
You didn't actually watch Origins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juUDkmKMYK8
>6:34
>>25037584
>it wasn't a fight
How? They were fighting the genies that Giovanni controlled
>>25037582
reaching something from point a to point b doesn't make someone "developed" though
>>25037528
>resets
ahh there it is, and here I thought you were making a point
it only reset one time, and there's a reason people hate that
the fact that you claim it is nonexistent implies that you can switch OS Ash and XY Ash's positions and have the same result, when it won't
>>25037584
Thundurus, Tornadus, and Landorus were under Giovanni's control
Watch the fucking show fags
>>25037528
>faux because its reseted later or outright ignored
The only time it was actually reset and outright ignored was BW.
>>25037594
Because you don't get to just fucking attack the trainer. Fucking season one of pokemon and they explain that shit. Ash literally needed to cheat and attack a trainer.
>>25037601
I'm just waiting for the ">he watches the anime" post, it's the inevitable reply after the gymnastics they pulled to make Origins Red "good"
>>25037582
>You just dont see him training, but its obvious it happens.
See>>25037498
You just dont see him losing, but its obvious it happens.
>>25037601
No this show is fucking shit and is too long to still be fucking shit.
>>25037586
Never said I did and I just got here so I wasn't the person you were talking too.
>>25037606
He didn't attack Giovanni, he attacked the mirror. Giovanni was just there. He's a fucking evil team leader, he deserved to die.
>>25037616
there we go
should have said that from the get go
>>25037610
I don't need to do that because Ash still cheated. You don't get to attack trainers even when you are loosing like the little piss baby Ash is.
>>25037616
Why are you complaining about something you haven't watched therefore you don't know the context of the situations?
>>25037616
If you never watched Origins why are you arguing FOR Origins?
>>25037630
see >>25037625
the target was the mirror
if anything Ash actually saved Giovanni's life since the mirror was taking control of him
it also made Giovanni realize how special that Pikachu is
I loathe BW but even I know key stuff like that from reading
>>25037636
Nigga I asked you for the scene after I found some weird one in google and the video you linked me looks like Pikachu throwing a spirit bomb directly at Giovanni.
>>25037598
>reaching something from point a to point b doesn't make someone "developed" though
That's literally what development is.
>it only reset one time, and there's a reason people hate that
He becomes a champion in the orange islands, then he's a noob in Jhoto.
He defeats the battle frontier, which is above champion level and still struggles in Sinnoh.
>the fact that you claim it is nonexistent implies that you can switch OS Ash and XY Ash's positions and have the same result, when it won't
No. OS Ash is a noob who just started. XY Ash is a noob who had lots of experience yet didnt develop for that and is still a retarded 10 year old kid who cant win a league.
>>25037603
And the entire show, but again, keep telling yourself he actually develops.
>>25037614
>You just dont see him losing, but its obvious it happens.
proof?
>>25037654
>You just dont see him training, but its obvious it happens
proof?
>>25037654
>He becomes a champion in the orange islands, then he's a noob in Jhoto.
>noob in Jhoto
Are you literally retarded? He had to leave his Charizard at some training place because he was literally steamrolling through Johto with it
>>25037646
I wasn't I just didn't think anyone defeated Giovanni except Red because Giovanni wasn't at his gym when Ash came.
If you want my opinion Ash and Red are the same fucking person just like Blue is Gary.I also just got here and you guys might think I'm someone else you were already talking too.
>>25037661
Charmander evolved to Charizard.
>>25037671
>He had to leave his Charizard at some training place because he was literally steamrolling through Johto with it
He had to leave Charizard literally to make Charizard stronger, are you retarded?
Even then, if Charizard was so OP, why didnt he win the league despite having type advantage and all?
>>25037654
>still struggles in Sinnoh
Which is why he made it all the way to the Top 4 of the Pokemon League and only lost because he was facing a guy with a Darkrai and Latios?
>>25037678
>Charmander evolved to Charizard.
That doesn't mean he trained? Charmander literally evolved into Charmeleon out of nowhere. All we saw Red do throughout the entirety of Origins with his Charizard is battle. We don't even see him feeding the motherfucker.
>>25037682
struggle!=losing your retard
he didnt exactly steamroll his fights.
Oh boy what endless circle argument do you guys want to have next
>Whose team has the GOAT and who is just a meme?
>Whose Waifu is is the best and therefore the rest are shit?
>Best pony?
>USA vs the World banter?
seriously every board same shit different topic, you take a subjective view and try to make it objective to validate yourselves. All it does is create an argument general to eat up posts while the rest of the board stagnates.
>>25037654
>He becomes a champion in the orange islands, then he's a noob in Jhoto.
Which he isn't. Using new Pokemon, yeah, but that's literally it.
>He defeats the battle frontier, which is above champion level and still struggles in Sinnoh.
The struggle was with Paul who had the same league and training experience as Ash had. He had a different mentality that was more prone to results mean everything.
>And the entire show, but again, keep telling yourself he actually develops.
Except that's fucking wrong.
>>25037678
>He had to leave Charizard literally to make Charizard stronger, are you retarded?
He didn't bring back Charizard until the League, are you literally retarded? And that wasn't the only Pokemon he had to leave behind because they were too powerful. He did the same with Squirtle as well as Bulbasaur but Bulbasaur stayed.
>>25037690
>That doesn't mean he trained?
Literally the opposite, which was the point I was trying to make.
>. All we saw Red do throughout the entirety of Origins with his Charizard is battle. We don't even see him feeding the motherfucker.
I guess Red is an alien that doesnt go to the bathroom then.
>>25037692
It would be easy if people here had the average IQ and reading comprehension of at least a 6 year old, and experience with other franchises.
Or at least know about the very character they are championing.
>>25037651
Because that is exactly what it is. The spirit bomb was to neutralize the control over the genie pokes he had, but not actually defeat any pokemon he had. Kind of like shooting TR balloon instead of fighting their four-six shit pokemon first
>>25037691
He wasn't using the same Pokemon that he used in the Battle Frontier besides Pikachu you retard.
>>25037709
And you guys count this as a win vs Giovanni? I don't.
>>25037695
>Using new Pokemon, yeah, but that's literally it.
Yeah, such as Pikachu, Charizard or Bulbasaur right?
>The struggle was with Paul who had the same league and training experience as Ash had.
So if Ash is BF tier and had consistent development, why didnt he win in Sinnoh?
Inb4 m-muh legends
He beat legends in BF.
>Except that's fucking wrong.
Sure thing bud, he is definitely winning the Gen 8200 league, he just develops slowly amirite?
>>25037702
>He didn't bring back Charizard until the League
so?
> And that wasn't the only Pokemon he had to leave behind because they were too powerful. He did the same with Squirtle as well as Bulbasaur but Bulbasaur stayed.
That's not what happened.
>>25037704
He is. He doesn't eat/sleep/shit/fuck himself. That is why he sucks
