>shed shell exists for the sole purpose of avoiding trapping
>"trapping is OP because it forces me to run shed shell"
Because other than Shadow Tag, Shed Shell does nothing beneficial for your Pokémon. the only thing it does is buffing the damage of Knock Off.
>>24820727
Only one pokemon can have a shed shell.
Shed shell is not useful in any other way, and doesn't work unless you somehow correctly guess your opponent will trap.
>>24820743
>Shed Shell does nothing beneficial for your Pokémon
Except you know, AVOIDING shadow tag. It's like saying "except for curing status, lum berry does nothing for your pokemon". You can't invalidate something on the grounds that it prohibits you from running otherwise optimal set ups. Compromise and picking between two different mutually exclusive benefits is good for competitive games. It's always a plus to enhance the amount of decision making to avoid quality builds and solved games.
>>24820762
Is there some ban to have six shed shells?
>Having to run Shed Shell on all your walls to deal with 1 Pokemon
Shed Shell is fine on Ferrothorn and Skarmory since since people narrow in on them with HP Fire Goth or Magnezone, but when all of your walls are game, it's asking too much to put a Shed Shell on them all. Remember, they can get Knocked Off as well. If you have a Clefable as your Torn-T switch-in, and you get hit with a Knock Off, then a U-Turn into Goth, the Shed Shell was useless.
Against stall, Shed Shell Manaphy was the safest means of effectively beating Goth Stall, but again, it's asking too much for everyone to have to run that.
Hi mom
>>24820769
VGC -- only one kind of item per pokemon
>>24820765
That means Shadow Tag is over centralizing the meta, mofo.
> I don't want to counter this one particular mon
> Therefore WE NEED TO BAN ENTIRE ABILITY
>>24820765
But the difference is the availability of status compared to the availability of Shadow Tag. Enough people use status in some form, even if it's not intentional like Flamethrower, to warrant a Lum Berry. Even if 25% of people run Gothitelle, that still means 3 out of every 4 battles Shed Shell does more harm than good.
>>24820806
There are pokemon that used in like 75% of teams but they somehow doesn't centralize anything and perfectly fine.
>>24820727
Stay mad goth kek
>>24820806
It's ok when Sneaky Pebbles do it
>>24820830
Don't worry, your pokemon is next to be baneed, stay mad smogfucker
>>24820808
I think they did this to avoid future hassles with Shadow Tag. And, of course, blanket-banning instead of banning specific examples hasusuallybeen their style
>>24820887
They also could ban Baton Pass as a whole but because that ban would kill they auto-win teams they come up with overcomplicated restrictions.
>>24820934
What auto-win team are you talking about? How about you shut the fuck up and don't post since you've no idea what you're talking about?
>>24820948
Stay mad mate.
>ban shadow tag as a whole, crippling wobbuffet who did nothing wrong
>refuse to ban baton pass as a whole purely because of dry pass Celebi
>especially when they really should've just banned scolipede
>>24820966
I'd rather stay mad while you have to stay so shit-for-brains and attention-craving that you actively misinform the public, mate.
>>24820808
u cant counter goth you numpty you cant fuckin switch out of it
Dumb frogposter.
Being forced to run a useless item to deal with one Pokemon is retarded, especially if you have to run it on multiple Pokemon.
>but muh lum berries
You're not seriously comparing an item that covers the entirety of status to an item that covers one uncommon ability, right? Also, you don't need Lum to deal with status; You can run other moves to combat it, or you can just take the risk of being statused. With Goth, you either run Shed Shell or die.
>>24823695
>retarded
Why Smogonites always uses blanket terms to ban what they don't like?
Maybe they know that it isn't broken, but need to find some excuse anyway.
>>24820727
>shed shell exists for the sole purpose of avoiding trapping
>works once
>>24823695
>one uncommon ability
If it's that uncommon it shouldn't be something worth worrying about, then.
>>24820948
That team with Sylveon with Stored Power. It consisted in buffing + baton pass, until you had +6 on everything, them click on Stored Power and wait.
That is if the opponent doesn't retire due to boredom
Reminder: A healthy meta isn't an evolving meta. A good meta isn't a meta that constantly evolves with new strategies, counters, and teams. It's playing with the same 6 Pokemon over and over again and then if anything comes up that disrupts that even a little bit you ban it.
>>24823881
That team usually won in like 12 turns compared to all the stall/balance bullshit going on these days that drags on for 20-30+ turns average per game.
>>24823695
>uncommon
Then what the fuck is the problem? That's just banning anything that isn't common meta, which is stupid.
>>24823901
You see, the boring standard team should have optimal matchup against every single team, or else it's broken.
They forgot that "metagaming" meant adapting to trends, not banning whatever starts winning.
>>24823901
Ah yes, let's force people to run 6 Shed Shells. That's not stupid. That's not ridiculous. That doesn't take away from any aspect of the game whatsoever. That seems totally fair.
Fucking spastic
>>24823879
>>24823901
"uncommon" as in there's only one Pokemon you'll usually see that has it
Why should you be forced to either run an item that will be useless 19/20 games or auto-lose? You wouldn't keep a Pokemon around if you needed a counter that does literally nothing else to not auto-lose.
If it gets knocked off the Shed Shell was useless to begin with, it's not even reliable counterplay.
>>24823920
Then it's that one Pokemon that deserved the ban, not the entire ability.
>>24823881
That team is dead with the current Baton Pass restrictions in place.
>>24823883
Reminder: It's not evolving to be forced to run extremely specific things across your entire team when they literally only have 1 single use, which is used around 1 in every 20 battles
Reminder: Noone uses a team of fucking 6. You only encounter the common Ferrothorn Rotom Zard teams because you're obviously at the bottom of the ladder because you're obviously really bad
>>24823920
> Auto-lose 5% of games
> Not just accept this as your strategic flaw
> Be mad because your team should LITERALLY COUNTER EVERYTHING
> Insist on ban one uncommon pokemon because your team should be flawless in any situation
That is why smogon is the biggest joke in the universe.
>>24823937
Arhghghghgh.
HOW ARE YOU SO DUMB
HOW
YOURE LITERALLY SAYING RIGHT THERE THAT WE SHOULD JUST DELIBERATELY LOSE TO SOMETHING
YOU ARE ADMITTING THAT IT IS AN AUTO WIN UNLESS YOU RUN EXTREMELY SPECIFIC COUNTERMEASURES FOR SOMETHING YOU VERY RARELY ENCOUNTER
THIS IS THE FUCKING DEFINITION OF BROKEN
>>24823942
> What is risk management?
If you don't want to counter this type of opponent then you deserve to lose against him. You free to decide what threats you want to prevent and what threats will destroy you.
>>24823924
No shit.
>>24823937
>having a weakness is the same as losing from preview with no counterplay
Spotted the fag salty that he can't spam Goth/Sableye stall for easy wins.
>>24823962
> no counterplay
You can just kill Gothilette on switch
with right prediction
>>24823958
No. Think. Just stop and think.
Compare this to anything. Given the option between severely weakening yourself for a majority of the time just to give yourself a better chance a tiny portion of the time, or just having a normal chance a majority of the time, what do you take?
You obviously never made it anywhere near high level play if you feel like people would be happy to just knowingly and willingly lose. Why would this be fun for anyone?
Against virtually any other team your win relies on you outplaying your opponent, with a bit of luck thrown in due to crits and misses being a thing. What you're saying is, fuck that, I want to win 1 game in 20 without needing skill. You're fucking delusional.
>>24823970
Truly a terrible, terrible, fucking awful player. Noone switches in a Gothitelle on something that will kill it, unless they are bad or are making a very risky prediction. Most of the time they don't need to, as it comes in easily on most Pokemon like Clefable, Manaphy, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. etc.
So is Gothitelle everywhere? No, I see far more Gliscor, Lando-T, Slowbro, etc. than Gothitelle. Ferrothorn is basically ubiquitous but people aren't running Goth in even half of teams to stop it.
From what I've seen and heard, you run into it once every 20-30 battles.
So how is this some huge fucking problem? Smogonfags only repeat "it's uncompetitive" "it's cancer" but then in the same breath turn around and say "it's uncommon so I shouldn't have to run Shed Shell because the situation never comes up." If it never comes up how come you faggots are so upset?
It's plainly obvious to anyone with a brain that Goth is a scapegoat, that they always wanted to ban Shadow Tag and Goth is just an excuse.
>>24823985
> I want to win 1 game in 20 without needing skill.
What is real problem with win 19 games in 20 and lose just 1 because you don't want to counter this particular obscure strategy? Seems like you just want to win all no matter what. This is unrealistic.
>>24824011
Not who you replied to but that's just stupid the point was 19 matches that could be a win or loss 50/50 and 1 match that was a 100% loss. He's asking for 20 50/50 matches, I think you're so mad you fail to see the point.
>>24824023
He can run shed shell and it would be 20 with 50%
>>24823998
>From what I've seen and heard
Yep. You have no clue what you're talking about.
The fact that you think Ferrothorn is ubiquitous is the nail in your coffin. It's not that common, except at the very bottom of the ladder, where you obviously are. Your opinions on what is good for the metagame are therefore worth fuck all.
>>24824027
And those 19 would now drop down to about 25/75 because you've turned one Pokémon on your team to a sole counter to that 1 match.
>>24824027
No, if you're running Pokemon with shed shell you lose their useful items like Leftovers, Life Orb or other items. It reduces your chance of winning the other 19 matches by a lot.
>>24824032
This implies that changing from leftovers to shed shell makes a wall 100% dead weight rather than a still perfectly usable but slightly sub optimal compromise.
>>24824030
Ferrothorn is one of the top 10 used pokemon. It's a hell of a lot more common than Gothitelle.
OMGOSH ... .. She's H.O.T ->>HOT. My nigga. Will she suck my dick latar?? Call me and tell me (9-1-1) This is bate ya fuckers.
http://strawpoll.me/6264957
TIME FOR A POLL
>wah wah this is too centralising
>in the meta obsessed with Sneaky Pebbles
I will never understand that, there are so many pokemon on their dex where they say 'crippling Stealth Rocks weakness' and yet Stealth Rocks isn't centralising? When it makes a bunch of pokemon far worse and forces you to run a spinner?
>>24824058
Well you run a team without items and see how well you do in VGC and on smogon rules then get back to us.
>>24823998
It's common on Sableye stall, where it covers most of that playstyle's holes without thinking. You don't need to scout Manaphy, you don't need to worry about SR Clefable defeating Sableye, etc.
You just trap it.
You shouldn't have to run a garbage item to deal with one Pokemon, common or not. There's a difference between "uncommon threat that you need to play around" and "they have Goth so your Venusaur/Skarm is useless."
They've always wanted to ban Shadow Tag, that's true. I can see why, but they really should have just banned Goth.
>>24824124
Holy fuck sauce?
>>24824173
If they had banned only Goth there would be much less of a shitstorm. Instead they went full retard. You can even see people begging "please don't do this, it sets a bad precedent, the problem isn't Shadow Tag it'a Goth" and they get told to shut the fuck up, ST must die, this is how it's going down.
I legitimately cannot see how anyone can defend this shit.
>>24824218
Remember when firestorm or whatever the fuck his name is tried to rig the shadow tag ban from ubers and he got BTFO by Chaos?
>>24824219
He's the hero smogon needs.
>>24824218
I won't, they definitely should have banned Gothitelle and maybe Gothorita, not Shadow Tag as a whole.
>>24820800
>VGC
more like Mega Primal FugDon
What if in gen7, they make, like 2 or 3 more pokemon with Shadow Tag. Ones with sorta crappy stats too, like worse than Gothitelle. Like Wormadam and Dunsparce as Ghost types with Shadow Tag. Would they still ban it?
>>24820727
>an item had to be engineered specifically to deal with trapping
You can spin the argument that way, too. This is what smogon means when they talk about centralization, you nigger.
>being mad about shadow tag ban when they just tried to kick Sableye out because muh stones
priorities
>>24824832
Then why not ban Stealth Rocks since the game is centralized around that? Like, you literally see "OHKO after Stealth Rock damage" in half the entries on Smogon pokedex. Pokemon are given notice simply for having Defog/Rapid Spin or being Ghost just to block Rapid Spin.
Does it get more centralizing than that?
>>24824852
Stealth rock does not destroy the competitive viability of teams if they choose to not bring dedicated counters to it. So no, it's not centralizing.
>>24824916
Except that it does.
Thanks to Stealth Rock, any Flying, Bug, Ice or Fire type (not talking about combinations of those) needs to be a fucking behemoth to be used.
>>24824959
Name one pokemon that is only hindered by stealth rocks and not omitted because it is completely outclassed by something else anyway.
>not talking about combinations of those
Why? Because volcarona is in the upper half of OU despite rocks? Lmao kid
>>24824983
Are you honestly saying the game is not centered around Rocks when there are whole categories of pokemon defined by how well they can remove rocks and set them up?
Are you honestly saying SR is not a big deal when Volcarona's smogondex entry even says it needs support to clear rocks an people do dumb shit like leading with Talonflame if they see 2 rock setters on your team?
Pokemon are given specific EV spreads so they can afford to switch into SR 4 times instead of 3.
But it's not "centralizing?" Instead an ability only 6 pokemon in the entire game have is centralizing, even though one of those pokemon is banned, three are from the same line, and the other is Wobbuffet and a babby. Even though pretty much everyone admits the threat is not even that fucking common.
And then you have dumb shitters like you saying if you are forced to carry a counter to ST Gothitelle it means Shadow Tag renders the game unplayable, but if you don't carry a counter to SR which is available to far more Pokemon and is far, far more common, you deserve to eat that 4x super effective hazard damage. And you don't see the irony.
And even then. Ignoring all that... why not just ban Gothitelle? Why is it that you aren't even allowed to ask "why not just ban Gothitelle?" You faggots ever think about that?
>>24825009
He never said any of those things, he pointed out that there are no Pokemon that go unused specifically because of Stealth Rock.
Hazards have always been and will always be centralizing, it's been that way since Spikes were introduced in Gen 2. They're a competitive aspect of the game.
>if you don't run an SR counter you eat 4x damage from SR
If you aren't going to run something to contest hazards, don't run something weak to hazards. Plenty of offense teams don't run a way to clear hazards, but don't run something like Talonflame. When they do run a Charizard or Talonflame, they bring Starmie/Latis/Excadrill. It's not rocket science.
>if you are forced to carry a counter to ST Gothitelle it means Shadow Tag renders the game unplayable, but if you don't carry a counter to SR
It's not the end of the world if you don't run a SR counter, so long as you're not using a hazard-weak build (Talonflame teams, stall, etc.). The counters that do exist are viable and don't automatically hinder a build.
Goth, on the other hand, makes you lose from preview if your method of dealing with X can be trapped. That is, unless you run an item that will be useless 95% of your matches.
>>24824219
More info please
>>24825408
If you aren't going to run something to context Gothitelle, don't run something weak to Gothitelle.
>b-b-but it'll be useless on 95% of my matches
Then who fucking cares?
tl;dr comp pokemon is shit
>>24825443
You just described 27 of the 54 Pokemon in S Rank and the A Ranks, every one of which can either be killed or crippled.
If you give a shit about being competitive, you should care. It's like being itemless, but you still take full damage from Knock Off; You're directly at a disadvantage against someone using a regular item. All so you don't auto-lose to Gothitelle, and even then it can be knocked off.
>>24825524
>You just described 27 of the 54 Pokemon in S Rank and the A Ranks, every one of which can either be killed or crippled.
Then who fucking cares?
>>24825530
>who cares if it can cripple half of the meta without thought
You clearly don't know what you're talking about, get out.
>>24825571
So then why not ban Stealth Rock?
Or Landorus?
>>24820727
I'd consider your point valid but it isn't sadly.
There are a handful of items that are far too strong, choice items, life orb, leftovers. All too good. Simply by not having them a pokemon can be deemed shit. Gamefreak doesn't seem to care though, so you'll never see any sort of nerf for the items seen on 90% of everything and we will continue to get shit like the cell battery.
If it wasn't for these items being retardedly powerful you could justify an item slot on that no problem, but as it is, you can only really justify that on something like blissey in ubers where that nigger is going to be trapped one way or another.
Also the shed shell works once. What the fuck. Why the restriction on such a niche item.
>>24825591
>Stealth Rock
Necessary because otherwise you can switch into your resists too freely. Battles would go on much longer and stall would be better.
>Landorus
Crippling 4x weakness, no reliable recovery, kind of slow. Same as Hoopa-U, basically.
>>24825591
>Stealth Rock
It doesn't invalidate random shit your team is weak to, and you can reasonably play around it.
>Landorus-T
Give me a reason why it should be banned, I've yet to hear a compelling argument that isn't "it's used a lot!" or "it's bulky and sets SR!"
If Goth was broken, why wasn't she the top used pokemon? I mean, if she's able to cripple everything, then every team would benefit from her ability, no?
Or are smogonites implying that people were dumb and didn't want to win?
>>24825725
Usage =/= Power
But yes, people are dumb. You're on /vp/, there's proof all around you.
>>24825725
Gothitelle only works well on stall. Most people have to overcome some kind of moral obstacle before they enter the hellish realms of stall
>>24820800
Trapping isn't overpowered in doubles at all
>>24824832
If Skarm runs shed shell solely to avoid magnezone, why is it a big deal that your retarded ass runs shed shell on a random poke because it's weak to G's shadow tag? What's wrong with particular pokemon having a uniqueness? The argument that it's over centralizing is empty. The multitude of ways to remove goth including arena trap dugtrio disproves such a claim.
Gothitelle and Mega Gengar are the only Shadow tag users
Magnezone is the only viable steel trapper
Dugtrio is the only viable Arena Trapper
Ghosts are immune to being trapped and are super effective on half of the problem
Gothitelle doesn't have much going for it in singles and Gengar is very frail.
Dugtrio is hindered by flying, which is very popular rn
Steel isn't really common enough to have a problem with trapping
There is also a shit item
>>24826875
5% of Skarmory runs Shed Shell
6% of Manaphy ran Shed Shell before the ban
>>24826903
Agreed 1/20th or just 1% more than 1/20th is not over centralizing. Also what's wrong with punishing an otherwise punishing tail glow set up? Learn to run a team. Sweepers aren't supposed to come out until their counters are removed and they are able to sweep.
>>24826954
But they don't send out their fucking Gothitelle until you try to set up.
You fucking faggots are actually defending stall. Jesus christ, /vp/ make your mind
>>24826877
>he doesnt use choice band trapinch
kek
keep it up buddy
>>24826877
>Steel isn't really common enough to have a problem with trapping
lmao
>>24826970
Then bait the goth out and carry a move that can punish it as to enable your sweeper, or if you beat 5 of of there pokes and they beat 5 of yours and goth beats your manaphy 1on 1 they deserve to win.
>>24827380
I just fucking said. It doesn't come out like that. It only comes in on things that can't 'bait' it. But what am I saying. This is against good players, which you obviously would never encounter.
>>24820727
>Being disabled gives you some tax benefits
>"I would never want those small tax benefits because it forces me to be disabled"
>>24827722
>modus ponens
>>24826970
There's literally nothing wrong with stall.
>>24827380
I dunno why anybody tries to speak competitively here when it's obvious most of you are just stupid or deliberately being bullheaded because you refuse to have actual discussion.
You would fall into the latter. You do realize that you can't just lure out a Goth, right? Once a Goth comes out, you better hope it's not on a wall or a Pokemon whose last move wasn't a strong damaging hit - which, btw, most players who run goth WILL know when to bring it out - or you're fucked.
And no, just killing the other 5 mins isn't really a viable solution, considering most players who run goth run really bulky partners. And really bulky mons require stallbreakers. Which are fucked over by Goth.
Please, go watch a battle or a few battles where Goth screws the other team, then see a battle where Goth loses. Really look at and examine them, then come back and talk.
>>24825601
>Gamefreak doesn't seem to care though
It's balanced because you can only use one of each on your team in their formats. Whereas with Smogon rules you can go full retard and make a stall team full with Leftovers, or a HO team with only Orbs/Choice items.
Smogon just mixes and matches the most ridiculous bans and allowances you could come up with, with whatever rationale suits them.
>>24820996
Just add it to the list of Smogon flaws.
>We can't ban Baton Pass because of Baton Pass Celebi
>We CAN blanket ban an entire Ability like Shadow Tag even though this includes the likes of little babies like Gothita and Wynaut
Doesn't make sense, will never make sense, I haven't heard a good retort to this.
Arena trap is not banned though right?
>>24823920
But you're wrong. Not running Shed Shell does not guarantee an auto lose against Goth. If you take my team for instance of Band Talonflame (SE U-Turn out of Goth, or any STAB nuke), Scarf Zone (can Volt Switch out when trapped), SD Weavile (wrecks Goth, doesn't even need an item at all really), Sub DD M-Altaria (can't be Tricked, can possibly avoid TWave if Sub is played well), SpD Excadrill (pretty even matchup), Suicune (only pokemon that fears Gothitelle trapping it).
You see a Shed Shell on that team? Or is it quite possible that you're a whiny balance player? Hmmm.
>>24831325
yes because only one viable Pokemon gets it and WAY more things can avoid it without having to sacrifice an item slot
Why don't Smogonites just play gen 4 instead of shitting on every new stuff that's released?
Also, gen 5 Shadow Tag was much stronger than now, yet it wasn't broken before, but now is? That's some backwards retarded logic.
>>24831378
Because meta game slowly become better with every ban. How you can't see it?
>>24831390
Not sure if serious
>>24831341
SpD Excadrill gets crippled by Trick, and a probable target seeing as it can set rocks through Sableye's Magic Bounce.
If you're running something that Goth traps, you either run Shed Shell or accept that you're going to get raped by some underage faggot with a copied team.
>>24832075
>If you're running something that Goth traps, you either run Shed Shell or accept that you're going to get raped by some underage faggot with a copied team.
But that would be HO. "Who cares if my shit dies, just send another and hit hard XD"
>>24832226
No, that would be your misinformed, shitty understanding of HO. Sure a lot of the tiem you just sac, but against stall you can't afford to do that.
>>24832239
>Sure a lot of the tiem you just sac, but against stall you can't afford to do that.
No problem, just ban.
>>24827432
That is not true. Any pokemon that can bait in goth and put it to sleep is the fucking winner
>>24832226
>need X wallbreaker to punch holes
>goth traps it
>lol who cares, just send another xD
(You)
>>24834629
That's pretty retarded senpai. You only forgot that Goth can't switch into wallbreakers without getting 2HKOed.
>>24834686
>what is manaphy
>>24821141
Switch your shed shell out to banded dugtrio.
Ezpz.
>>24820743
Magnet pull
